Lead with Courage
Mark Hodgson | Reimagining the Purpose of Holidays | Lead with Courage
Mark Hodgson joins the Lead with Courage podcast to share stories of his life, career and passions.
With 15 years in Senior Roles across the travel industry, the founder of Mind and Body Travel, Mark Hodgson has seen and experienced first hand the positive impact that travel can have on mental health, wellness, stress and relationships.
In this episode Mark talks about the the importance of having a support network, sharing how his brother played a critical role in his journey. Mark shares his passion for what travel means for him, sharing how travelling with his family and the importance of holidays helped him reconnect with himself.
Mark Hodgson LinkedIN
Mind and Body Travel
Shakti Mat - Hodgo's tip for great sleep!
Did you enjoy the episode? Send us a text!
______________
Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.
If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.
To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning
Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
______________
Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Mark Hodgson joins the Lead with Courage podcast to share stories of his life, career and passions.
With 15 years in Senior Roles across the travel industry, the founder of Mind and Body Travel, Mark Hodgson has seen and experienced first hand the positive impact that travel can have on mental health, wellness, stress and relationships.
In this episode Mark talks about the the importance of having a support network, sharing how his brother played a critical role in his journey. Mark shares his passion for what travel means for him, sharing how travelling with his family and the importance of holidays helped him reconnect with himself.
Mark Hodgson LinkedIN
Mind and Body Travel
Shakti Mat - Hodgo's tip for great sleep!
Did you enjoy the episode? Send us a text!
______________
Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.
If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.
To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning
Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
______________
Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Mark Hodgson, welcome to the Lead with Courage podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Andy and Cherie. It's so good to be here. It's been a while since we've caught up, but yeah, I'm looking forward to having a good chat.
Speaker 3:Thank you for being here.
Speaker 1:So it's so great to have you here today. I know we, you know, pass cross and we probably know each other a long time, but not for you, and I, in particular, not spend a huge amount of time directly together. I know you and Chairs used to be colleagues in a previous life perhaps same life but different, different chapters. Yeah, different company on the payroll perhaps, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great to have you back and we'll run through, I think, today in the chat a little bit about our history working together and the lessons learned. I was colleagues with Hodge-O for a while and then I reported into you as well. So different very, very parts of our careers in our travel industry, time there together, but also now you're still in the travel industry now that travel is back. So excited to talk to you about that today as well. But, andy, our favorite beginning question over to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, Joe, what does lead with courage mean to you?
Speaker 2:How did I know this?
Speaker 1:question was coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's a shock to mystery there's whenever I think about this because I've listened to a lot of your podcasts and when I think about this question, there's one word that I can't get out of my mind, and that is conviction. And if you sort of go below courage or, I guess, peel the onion back a little bit, if you get yourself to the point of absolute conviction about something so how can I make a difference? Where is the opportunity here? Where is the problem? How can I help?
Speaker 2:And almost to that compelling reason point of view like, yeah, this can change or this should change I think the courage kind of takes care of itself. So, and that's how it works for me anyway, I'm a bit of a thinker and an analyzer, but if I get myself to that point of really understanding, hey, this makes sense and I can actually inflict some change or affect some change. Here I think the conviction is a real key part. And if you think about famous leaders, people will follow leaders with conviction Now, for good or bad. So you've got to have the right intentions that link to that.
Speaker 2:Because if you look at some certain world, leaders Former presidents of Former presidents he has got absolute conviction right, but this is an intention and values work with what we would like them to be. And also other world wars and things like that have been started with leaders from conviction, right. So you've got to have good intentions. But if you've got good intentions and you've got that place of conviction, then it's you just want to follow that person, you want to be part of it, and so I think rather than just focus on courage.
Speaker 2:I'd look at well, what am I trying to do here? And get yourself to that point of belief. I know you're a big fan of belief sorry. And then it should take care of itself. You might need to educate yourself, podcast, maybe get a degree, maybe go to some workshops, just upskill yourself so that you can get that confidence, to that place of conviction. But I think that's where it lies.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that because it's almost like it's the belief that underpins the action of courage, so like if you've got that conviction, the courage is almost the doing of that conviction. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:And we'll probably get into our previous roles where we worked together before, but I think, running Escape Travel, which was a brand that was a little bit confused a lot for its whole time, I feel like I had the conviction to say this is a brand that we can be proud of and this is a brand that we can do some things with, and I think that's what actually brought it together. It wasn't necessarily the product marketing and people, and the core of it was we can do this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the belief and the conviction in it, oh, 100% Remite. We were just saying when was that? 2011? In that time, 2012 to 2015.
Speaker 3:2012, 2015 is when we worked directly together at that time. But maybe we can jog back and then we'll come to where you are currently. But if we can, when our paths all crossed for the first time was at Flight Centre Travel Group, and I remember and maybe you can share your perspective of this but I remember I was a team leader on the Sunshine Coast and I was kind of on track on these programs to be an area leader. It was really what I wanted to do and I guess in normal speak, maybe like a regional manager kind of role, and all of a sudden this new area leader pops up on the scene and it was this guy called Mark Hodgson. That I didn't know, this guy. Who was he?
Speaker 3:And then someone tells me oh, he's been working out in Western Brisbane in some smaller stores. But apparently, conviction, actually this guy he's a businessman, he's a really nice humble person and he's going to be a bit of a superstar. But who is this Hodgson? So that's how I remember hearing about you for the first time and I think all of those things are very true. But can you tell us a little bit about how you came on the scene, your, I guess, brief career history and then we can get into the leadership lessons and the courage and where we are now too, absolutely so I joined Flight Centre in 2005.
Speaker 2:So I was in working for McDonald's for 12 years so great. I think that business knowledge from McDonald's really helped me and then had a really good career in a couple of years in store. And then my wife and I always had this vision that we wanted to move to the Sunshine Coast. We could visualize our children nippers at Surf, life Saving and what have you. So we always had this vision. And then this role came up for area manager on the Sunshine Coast and I'm like I didn't feel like I could apply until I was. My stores were new, they weren't shooting the lights out with results, and went to a bar's night sales night and had a few drinks, spoke to the state manager and he recommended I put my application in. So I went home and I put it in that night after the. And then I wake up in the morning and like what am I doing? And I actually rang him and said I'm gonna withdraw my application and he said no and he talked me out of it and so I went through the process.
Speaker 1:Didn't say you're on a short list maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 3:And then the rest was history, and I love that they said no, like I love that. I mean obviously you couldn't if you really wanted to. I mean I probably didn't say no but he convinced me to apply.
Speaker 2:So and that's one of the, I guess, my favorite parts of my career is because I'm not a self promoter and I just like to do a good job with good intentions and values and with a long-term approach. So it doesn't always get noticed up in the lights, but the area manager at the time I'm sorry, it's state manager Darren he saw something there which I really liked and it worked really well for me. We had some fantastic results almost immediately and it was a great time of my career.
Speaker 2:So then from there two years of great results there, and then I was running a cruise brand nationally for a year, and then I ran Escape Travel, which turned out to be about a $600 million brand across the country, which is fantastic.
Speaker 3:So how many stores did ET or Escape Travel have at that time?
Speaker 2:We got to about 160. Yeah, wow, wow.
Speaker 3:And then, as I mean, as we would know but I guess people listening when you're saying running that role, like that was, you're the general manager of that brand or whatever the title was but you basically had a team who were responsible for the marketing, the product, even the design of the stores. I think we went through a rebrand, kind of relaunch of the stores in that time. Plus all the sales, all the people, the whole strategy, it's a big role.
Speaker 2:It was and I just gave it a crack. I guess, and I think my intentions of and trying to do things with a long-term approach and bring pride in and really try to rally the troops across the country, I think that really saw us get some really good immediate impact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think you've said that twice now and it's something that really resonates with me when you're saying about that long-term impact, because I think often and not just in Flight Centre, but any sales environment where it's very much like, well, what's the result this month, this week, this quarter? And if things aren't going well like the amount of times that you just see people's beliefs just crash and burn because they're like one month in or one quarter in where it's rough or maybe some people are going through that right now in their businesses, where the economy maybe isn't in this boom state and if you're not getting these results, people just they can't see further. So how did it? Is that just innate in you or what was the thought process there?
Speaker 2:It must be innate in me. I've not really thought about that. I think integrity is one of my biggest core values. So when you start doing short-term approaches, you probably conflicts with my value of integrity, because generally to do something long-term, you've got to do it right, you've got to do it well, you've got to do it with substance, you've got to do it with a plan and you've got to do it in a sustainable way. So I think it all comes back to that sort of integrity wanting to do something in the way that I thought was the best way for all stakeholders long-term, not just trying to hit a number that month, because that becomes a downward spiral pretty quickly. Probably the biggest. That's the challenge for anyone running a division or a company that's public, where you've got to deliver profits and growth every year.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's a fine balance, isn't it? Because you do need to deliver those. It's your expectation, but long-term is really what people want to see the sustainability. What were the results? I think, if I tweak my memory in those, that you had some pretty good years of growth in some of your results in the brand. You're not a self-promoter, so I'm going to push you to share this because they're exceptional.
Speaker 2:Year one we doubled our profits, so that was a phenomenal result and for me I look at if I have to sum up what the approach that we took was looking at the brand and then trying to get true alignment from the brand all the way through down to the front line travel advisor looking after a customer, so trying to get everything all in a row, all the ducks in a row so that it all just made sense and a very quick story around.
Speaker 2:That from a product point of view was we were a package holiday brand, but 35% of our inquiries came from our marketing team, getting cheap inquiries and cheap clicks for cheap flights to Delhi, cheap flights to Manila and places like that, and so the marketing team were hitting all their KPIs.
Speaker 2:On quantity but the brand was not successful, right? So then, when we changed that and we we change it, well, if you're going to do flight, only it has to be to destinations that people are going to buy packages. So whether it's LA, whether it's Singapore or London or Fiji, what have you? And when we did that, our bookings the consultant actually went down, but our average booking went up so high that our results actually took off and our consultants were happier because they're booking the holidays that the brand is actually meant to be booking.
Speaker 3:And so that's an example of getting alignment and the long-term integrity, because if the phone wasn't ringing in that like immediate moment, because you're not actually disappointing potential client, saying sorry, I don't have that flight to Delhi for you, then you just con. Yeah, that long-term vision for the client, for the team, and then the results.
Speaker 2:You remember the challenge of having all these inquiries that we couldn't get through to low conversion and low margin?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we would literally, I remember, be like who's taking the online inquiry? Like there's this many in the box, they're all going to disappear. And now I mean you think about that in this moment, after COVID and you go, can I have all those?
Speaker 3:inquiries, but yeah it was crazy, there was just too much inquiry, but not obviously the quality, which is no good for the client and no good for the teams either. Yeah, so maybe not a highlight part, but I think it's a big part in the conversation is that role? I think there was a tricky ending or a bit of a change.
Speaker 2:The yeah, I was moved on, found another, I was parked in another role in the company, which was great as well and, look, I probably was getting to the point where I was constantly conflicted with trying to do this long-term approach and build the brand and build the business that it's. You know, I wasn't delivering what whatever needed to be delivered or perceived to be delivered.
Speaker 2:So that was disappointing. But three years, we, you know, I think those three years are the three most profitable years ever for that brand, and so you know, the whole team did a great job there. I had a very great executive team. So the, you know, product marketing finance had never run a brand that big, and we all neither at all, and we all just came in and rallied together and made it happen.
Speaker 3:So yeah, you actually just you know, when we talked off air about all the memories, like I'm just reflecting on that now and I can see the faces of your executive team and you really, you really created a tight team of those people and I can see all their faces now and it makes me smile Like they're beautiful human beings that were so much conviction, so much buy-in to you to the mission. Like, yeah, it's something to be really proud of.
Speaker 2:Make sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, truly One thing that really strikes me. There's two moments, I think, when I reflect on us working together at that time, when I was one of your area managers, reporting in. There's one moment I don't even know if you know, if you remember this or not, but I still speak about it to this day. When we talk in workshops, we talk about emotional intelligence and we do. We talk a little bit about that third space. Adam Fraser has that concept, the third space, and he talks about the gap, or at the space, between when we say we finish work and when we go home and vice versa.
Speaker 3:And I remember you saying something and your boys were young at the time that you had this aha moment, that when you were walking in, because it was a very demanding job, that you had like an always on kind of job not always sustainable from the outside, I think. And then you said something about you had to change a decision of when you turned up at home, that when you drove into your driveway, then no more phone calls, no more emails, at least for the next couple of hours maybe you'd work at night, but it was those moments when and I might not recall this correctly, but you would walk into the house and the boys are almost like pulling at your legs like dad, dad, dad, and you're like I'm just on a call or I'm just doing this, and you were pretty much, you know, prioritising, finishing your day, but then had this aha moment to go. I can't keep doing this, like this isn't right for my family and it's not right for you. Is that something that is? Does that moment resonate for you? Or is that? Is that a big moment for you?
Speaker 3:Because I keep talking about it over these years, going my old leader, he said he made this new rule for himself and I reckon we should all think about that. Like, what is that line that we cross when we get home, where we have to park, work and prioritise? Will we get to park work and prioritise our family?
Speaker 2:In a lot of roles. It's hard to totally park it. It's probably that first 10, even five minutes of getting home.
Speaker 2:And I can't take full claim for that, because one of the conferences that we ran, mikey from New South Wales he part of his session at a conference. He talked about the dad getting home and the kids wanting to cuddle them and he said I'll just let me put my bags down. And you know like it was a hassle and he talked about a story about, well, I started leaving the bags in the car and came and got them later so that I could be there for my kids. But it brought me back actually almost got me a little bit there with thinking about, because I used to travel a lot.
Speaker 2:The boys used to fight getting through the door into the garage when I pulled in and I would open the car door and one of them would jump from my lap and that I mean that's a beautiful sort of moment. We had to work it out that I think whoever showered first, who was scheduled to shower first that night, got to greet dad first when he came in the door or something like that, because it was getting a little bit. It was going to be some injuries. But yeah, that moment is so, so critical, I mean. And then once they settle down and they feel comfortable, that I'm home or whatever, then if I need to take a call, then I can take a call. But yeah, it's probably that.
Speaker 3:Those first few moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I really. I thank you for saying that and also just a reminder that, yeah, this whole like work home, it's integrated. So it's not an on off necessarily, but just recognizing those first few moments and how important it is. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you, because I still I share that example. I hope that, with your permission, but I do share that.
Speaker 3:I think it's really special. The other thing that I I do really admire about the way that you held yourself, the way you operated, showed up and continue to, is your integrity, because at times I think your leadership style was not what some would determine.
Speaker 2:The the way to get things done.
Speaker 3:You're introverted, you're reflective, you're very empathetic, you're very considered, You're not a self promoter Like you're not a lot of the things in inverted commas that people were expecting, especially for a high level, very public role. How did you deal with your own sometimes, I guess, internal conflict of what's expected versus you, knowing who you are and and reporting into those skills and those attributes something I highly value and very much appreciate because, as as a leader, reporting, reporting into you as a leader, like to have those as your teammate was it's so important. So I think they're incredible skills and a lot of people can maybe see other big leaders I put in inverted commas, or public leaders. I have to be more like that, but if it's not who they are, it's a really tricky place to be.
Speaker 2:That's a big question.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Have you got time what?
Speaker 3:was the question yeah, what did you hear? And he's lost.
Speaker 2:I actually get a sense of tiredness when you said that, because I was conflicted all the time with regards to well, this is how I feel I can best get the results and develop my people and and and build the build the business. And my style of leadership is quite often seen as weak leadership on the surface, because you're not there in a place of authority and you're not.
Speaker 2:You know you're not calling the shots and you're too loose in your little. But at the end of the day, when you've got a business that's got 600 people sorry, 800 people around the country, you can't run that with micro management and dictatorship. You have to rally those people and get them to the point of belief and engagement where when they turn up every day in their store in Western Australia serving a customer, that they're making the right decisions and they've got the right attitude to that customer. Now you can't do that by a dictatorship style of leadership. You have to get that from an engagement style of leadership and I think that's for any multi-site leader. That engagement is what is really what determines what happens when the leader is not there.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, it's so true. And you have to lead through influence, not control, because I think if you're in a direct team you have a little bit more control over the energy, day to day and what people do and say, but the influence when you've got multi-site you can't be everywhere. You've got to trust people to do what they've got to do.
Speaker 2:Trust.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting word yes, say more. What does trust mean to you?
Speaker 2:I think you know part of you know what I'm doing at the moment in the travel space and trying to get people to think a bit differently. From a corporate point of view, you know a lot of business leaders, I don't think take enough breaks or take the right breaks, and particularly in the SME space, I think that trust space is massive because, or lack of trust, and why business owners don't take breaks?
Speaker 2:because they don't trust their staff or they don't trust that they're going to be able to run the business like they want them to. The funny thing is, if you've got the right team, when the leader goes away, quite often the business runs better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you're not in there meddling and getting it distracting everyone and getting it away.
Speaker 2:So trust is, I think, an interest. I mean, that's a massive topic across leadership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so are you seeing a lot or hearing a lot of that now with your business now. So I guess, if we fast forward, well actually can we chat about COVID, because mind and body travel you started pre-COVID, so can you tell us, I guess, how did that start, where did that all come, and then we can talk about COVID and where we are now.
Speaker 2:So I got to the point in my career where I didn't want to have all of my eggs in one basket of a you know one roll and I wanted, and I'd been made redundant for eight months off and I took a contract with another travel company for a year that didn't get renewed and I'm like I need to be in a place of control here of my destiny, and so that's why I wanted to start my own business and go back to, I guess, grassroots and help people with their adventures. So that started February 2019. And it was starting to build nicely and then, a year later, I just had to hit the reverse button and unwind it. So really, I'm five years in. I'm really only sort of two years in because we lost about three years One year pre-COVID I've lost that work and two years post-COVID where we couldn't travel. So I'm sort of back into startup mode still a little bit.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so it was. It was. I mean, I'm an optimist, as you know. I'm fairly positive. I'll see the silver lining in anything. Actually, one of the businesses I've been working with, he said that much of an optimist that if one of my stores burnt down, you'd say, well, this is a great opportunity for a fire sale.
Speaker 2:So there's always a there's always a positive, and so COVID was tough. There was probably a month where I was really feeling it, where you know you're just trying to get refunds back for customers, You're not earning any income, but you know that you've got to do it. You know, I guess, that sense of integrity, you've got to do the right thing and I, you know all my customers were satisfied with outcomes from from COVID and I would say I haven't done the, looked at the data but I would say they're all pretty much, yeah, customers still.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it kind of goes back to what you said before about the long-term vision, the integrity, the optimism. When you bundle all that up, it's, it's not going to be easy for you and your family.
Speaker 1:It's growing in airline or two at the moment in the news. Maybe for not always looking at those that view from above, if you like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's probably another podcast.
Speaker 3:Also, Hodo is still in travel industry and needs to sell all the airlines.
Speaker 1:Fortunately, not everyone will know what airline that is, because there are multiple Australian airlines who are probably in that same bucket, judging by the three emails that I got last week regarding outstanding credits that we have to use from three separate airlines.
Speaker 2:So the positives out of COVID. I mean, for you guys, it was the nudge that you almost needed and you're flourishing now. So there's so many great stories where on LinkedIn, I see people you know have changed roles and they're doing so well. And you know the the grounding that we all got from that flight center. You know business has really set a lot of people up for success. So I know there's a lot of people that are grateful for that. But there's also a time where they probably needed to leave and I think some people were probably there too long, were either got institutionalized or didn't back themselves, didn't have the confidence. And then they've had this nudge from COVID and some you know there's so many people doing some great stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's so true. And and when you're saying they're backing yourself in the confidence I guess, when you went through, say, your redundancy, what did? How did you build yourself back up? Or what was that experience for you? Wow?
Speaker 2:That was. So I had eight months off, which was fantastic, the you know because I'd been working full time for 20 odd years and you don't realize how much you need to break. So I was 40 and I did not realize how bad I was.
Speaker 3:Mentally.
Speaker 2:Just total burnout. My body was a massive muscle fatigue, overweight, no sense of self-worth. I was just total burnout. I think back to a conversation I had probably in the last month or two in my role before I was made redundant. I rang one of my area managers and they said Mark, we had this conversation yesterday and I had no recollection of this conversation, your memory just not there.
Speaker 2:And so I looked back at that and I was in a state of chronic stress for years and didn't know it. Adrenaline just kept me going and the thrill of being in such a dynamic company, but that chronic stress. And when I needed that time I painted the house. My grass was the best grass in the street. And one of my favourite epiphanies I had was I was feeling nostalgic. I was painting the inside of the house. I put on some Neil Diamond. I was feeling a bit nostalgic and I was painting and I had this epiphany that if I work I'm 40 now, if I work till I'm 65, I've got more of my career ahead of me than behind me. And when you turn 40 you start to think that you're pretty old, pretty close to winding down, right, so that was really good. And then how I got through, that was my brother. We walked a lot, so we probably walked three or four mornings a week and he was that real good, confident for me to probably be as vulnerable as I could be and help me through there.
Speaker 3:Steve, yeah, shout out to his podcast because he's yeah, he's just started a podcast as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the share podcast and so walking and hiking and just that sort of not forcing anything was really important for me, having some time and space. I did. I went to see a kinesiologist. That was freaky, I didn't know what to expect and it worked out that I was yeah, I wasn't in a good place, and so that was a really good experience. That opened up my eyes a lot. I started doing yoga. I listened to a lot of wellness podcasts. I was jamming my head with wellness podcasters to try and get myself in the right space and running still a fair bit of running I was doing through there, so just trying to keep active but not overload myself. And then it came to the time where I was doing too much baking and I'm like, okay, mark, you've got to go back to work now. So that's if anyone's been very redundant and has time off, yeah, when you start baking, it's time to put the suit and tie back on.
Speaker 3:That is the. That's the moment. Oh my gosh, what were you baking for anything?
Speaker 2:Oh, just probably muffins, you know no crock, and bush, or whatever.
Speaker 3:Oh no, no, no, it wasn't it didn't go that far.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness yeah probably the one thing just to probably answer your question even more is being very redundant. There's a time we go, that a feeling we go, they don't want me, and I think that happens to everyone. And you've got to get yourself out of that as quickly as you can Because I think that the roles that we had we cared so much. You know, we gave everything to our roles and when you that's connected to a company, you've given so much, and then one day they say we don't want you.
Speaker 2:I mean they didn't say like that, but no that's a real hit to the ego and and self worth. So it's going to happen, you're going to feel that, but you've got to try and get yourself out of that as quickly as you can. The interesting thing is I was in a boardroom meeting, planning meeting, looking at the structure of the division I was in and we mapped it all out, and I sat there and thought to myself well, I don't have a box, I don't have a role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you literally were helping them whiteboard up what the new structure would look like and which is in the meeting because I felt that's what the structure should look like, and if I don't have a role in that, then I don't have a role. You know, it's not the place to go. Oh, I need to try and manipulate myself here so that I'm going to go your way in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's your integrity coming through again. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh thanks, hajjo, Because yeah, it's, it's all it's. I feel that hearing you talk about it because I also know that feeling of when you give everything you know and to the point where you've actually given everything, that you're in burnout mode. You're extreme stress. That's without opening up this next door. But you know that that impacts your marriage, that it impact your relationship with your kids, your family not saying I know anything about that, but I it all of that has to impact all the special relationships in your life. And so the pressure that your whole life is under, and then for it almost to feel that slap in the face, to be like, oh yeah, thanks, but no thanks anymore and you're like what I've just given, I've given more than I have.
Speaker 3:That's an experience for so many people which is hard to come back from. So now I guess, yeah, thank you for sharing it now with what you do, because I love you, know the mind and body travel around. What are you helping people achieve in their lives now? Because not just cheap flights to Delhi, I think like the purpose behind the kind of travel that you want to help people experience.
Speaker 3:Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think the the fact that I've gone through burnout and I've really experienced that firsthand, plus 18 years in the travel industry, I've sort of found this fusion of how do we look at travel or how can we look at travel differently to ensure that we're the best versions of ourselves, to ensure that we're growing that and using travel almost as a self improvement tool. But most of us in society is sort of groomed us in that travel is a reward. So we work hard and then we go on a holiday and quite often we think that the holiday is going to fix all of our issues. But it's kind of taking a knife to a gunfight.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're in burnout mode or if you're not, don't have a good 365 day a year balance in your life. A holiday is not going to do much for you. It might do a short term, and so it also comes from a bit of frustration where booking people's holidays and they just want to jam so much into these holidays all the time. I used to get really irritated booking these holidays because these people will be so busy in their lives and then they're just going to be so busy on their holidays and a holiday. If you think about the purpose of a holiday, it's more than just a reward. It is making sure that you're having good connect, you know, reconnecting with your family, having good experiences together with your family and coming back ready to hit your goals. But most people come back and, like you know, we use that badge of want to, oh need a holiday from a holiday holiday.
Speaker 2:from the holiday we have to stop saying that, because you've probably got a six or nine month stint of life before your next holiday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, another sprint before you get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just doesn't make sense of how we approach it. And then so it goes from the holiday we want versus the holiday we need, and when we're planning our holidays we're in, we're in work mode, we're in family mode, we're in fast paced mode and our head kind of continues on that, I guess, in that place. So we don't think about what I actually need from this holiday. If I'm burnt out, I don't need to go on. Do two weeks in Europe, two nights, days everywhere, running around like an idiot, waking up at six AM, going to bed at 10 PM, 11 PM every night, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know it's about what. What do you actually need? And you don't have to totally change it, but change your holiday. But how can I bring in some components in my holiday that are what I need? So you know, if you're a busy professional, you need some time connection time with your family, because you've been traveling a lot of what have you? Then? Yes, you can take the kids to Disneyland, but don't make the trip all about Disneyland.
Speaker 3:Unless you're the Cannings, but that's not my only, but I hear. I'm joking about that because I love Disney. But I've heard you speak about this before and it's so true. Like take what about Yosemite? Or what about going on a slower paced road trip? Or something like this.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. It's not about you know what are you doing for your holidays? We're taking the kids to Disneyland. No, we're taking the kids to America. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to go to Disneyland, but we're going to do some other cool stuff as well, Because an interesting question that I ask sometimes is what does taking your kids to Disneyland teach them? What do you think the answer to that is Well, that's a good one. It's controversial, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think, what does it? What does it teach Chloe?
Speaker 3:Patience in a queue Probably not.
Speaker 1:Oh, that magic is real, I think that's. You know so corny, now that I've said that out loud, but that's, I think for her that that's absolutely what it is. It's sort of up there with a trip to Lapland or something like that, where it just the wildest dreams come to life. But aside from that, what does it? What does it really teach, you know, in terms of life lessons? For example, we had a trip recently to Papua New Guinea in July we did some work with a client up there and that was.
Speaker 1:It was just a lot more cultural, it was more rugged, it was kind of this the local markets, the local restaurants, yeah, the local markets the you know, like it was just Zooming with wild dolphins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like going snorkeling for her for the first time and seeing Nemo and Dory and all that kind of thing Again, the magic is alive, really taught her kind of those things and so much so that it inspired us to to you, helped us book a trip as well for next year where we're going to go to going to go to Chile and Peru and Costa Rica and it was kind of largely off the back of a week in PNG where we're like man, that was.
Speaker 1:That's like what real traveling was like. Again, you know where we've had the, the R&R, the flop and drop holidays, like we just came back for Fiji recently. We had Bali sort of wait last year, really this year as a reset over Christmas and and they're really necessary and good for a time. But then the, what we want to win still is the, you know, are those kind of those human experiences as cultural experiences where they're so blessed to live in a place like Australia. But it doesn't always, it's just living here. Maybe you don't always see outside the bubble. You know, chloe in particular probably won't see outside the bubble of our postcode really.
Speaker 3:So, yes, and I think in, it's really. It's really. I'm quite challenged with this question because I actually am like Disney obsessed. So, and if you said to me, though, universal Studios for three days completely different for me because I'm like, oh, be like going to the Gold Coast doing SeaWorld, movieworld, dreamworld, I'll be like, oh, it's about sugar here.
Speaker 1:I think it'll be slightly better than that.
Speaker 3:Oh no, but that's what I that's. What I'm saying is like I actually I actually am in love with Disney, like it's my goal to take her to every Disney in the world and like I just love Disney. So I need to extract the Disney part of that. But like theme, theme parks for kids, it's like sugar hits and it's impatience in lines and then they're over, they're overtired because they're overstimulated, and so then you're like oh, can I get this toy? Can I get that toy? And it's all really spoiled and it's horrible. So I think sometimes that can be like, yeah, this, this perception and I love what you said.
Speaker 3:Then, when we're planning the holiday I'd never thought about that You're in work mode, so you're really in like go, go, go. Fit it all in that kind of paradigm of thinking. So then when you're planning the holiday, you're in go, go, go. What else can we cram in? Oh, we've got two days, we're. Surely we could do more in two days because you're in that headspace. But actually when you're there I don't need to do it, I don't want to do much. I actually want us or it's intentional around. What are you doing? That's not standing in a queue, looking on a phone for half the day, so then on iPad for the whole flight, which is fair 13 hours. Get there, you're on the iPad, but then you're on the phone in the queue because it's too boring standing in queue for six hours and then you're overtired and you go oh, is that really? Is that really the experience you want? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Because I think that's what you you'll ask people, that won't you? You'll actually challenge their itineraries in a way, not to say it's not the right plan, but really like think out how you're experiencing what that will be.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So quite often I see myself or feel like I'm a travel coach. I'm coaching clients to that point of when you're on your holiday, what will you need versus what you're trying to plan now? You know, sometimes if I've got someone who's in a very professional, like a project manager or something, I'll get spreadsheets that are like almost down to the hour of planned of a holiday. I'm like like and that's a classic example of someone in work mode planning- yes planning a holiday. Yes.
Speaker 2:And I like to compare Disneyland to doing a family safari in Africa. Yep, with social media and everything technology now, I honestly believe that taking your family to South Africa or Africa for a safari is going to be a much better experience than taking them to doing a theme park holiday for a week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I agree, even though I love Disney, but I do agree and I can't wait for the day, like even for us when we're in Fiji last week. I'm like I cannot wait till she's old enough to take her on a safari, because those experiences that people get and I'm looking forward to that with Costa Rica, like, and the Amazon, like, wow, like we're reading the itinerary, saying, do you know, we're going to be out in the Amazon and these are the animals we're going to be spotting and these are the things that we're hopefully going to be seeing, and wow, that just gives me chills, thinking like we get to do that together and what an experience for all of us.
Speaker 1:But how often, yeah, we're just cram in busyness, I think there's just so much of an opportunity better opportunity to be present, like I think you're pretty good at doing that, shuri. In general, I certainly found it tricky at Disney last year where I just had to be married to the Disney app because the way my brain works is that I just kind of don't love inefficiencies. So there's, I don't want to queue up for that one if I know that that one has a shorter queue and the app absolutely facilitates that whole thing.
Speaker 1:And especially then when you're paired that with a FastPass, for example, then I know that I've got two hours to use that FastPass before I get a new one drop in, and so I'm structuring the day, you know kind of like, yeah, because I'm like, babe, if we come across a princess who's walking by, I'm not caring about what's on your FastPass, we are going to see that princess and where we leveled out where we leveled out was that some days we did FastPasses and some days we just wandered around just and see what happens and we had the luxury of maybe having a couple of days there, a lot of days there, to sort of nut that out and have that freedom, whereas if you just have the two, three days and then you hit the road and you drive 500 miles up the road to the Grand Canyon or to Yosemite or something like that, or out to Palm Springs, then you might not always be afforded those.
Speaker 1:Instead, it's like how can we see as much as we can and stay as late as we can, and then you kind of sometimes you can miss the point.
Speaker 2:Yep, and that happens with holidays in total.
Speaker 1:Yes, how do we?
Speaker 2:get. I've only got so if you. If someone takes four or gets a four weeks annual leave a year, that's 7.69% of the year they get to spend on themselves, right. So human nature we go. I need to maximize this right. But you need to maximize your value from the outcome. You need not how many things that you can tick off. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and I just want to say I'm not anti-Disney, no no, that's all right. I know you're not, but don't make the whole trip about it, right, yeah, go to Disney, that's fine, but don't, don't limit that. And you know that's for families, because really, if a family is going away and we're talking, you know, in the leadership podcast, a lot of your listeners are going to be in professional roles, they're going to be busy. You need family reconnection time.
Speaker 2:Yes, Now if you're on an app at Disney and you're looking for princesses and you're trying to navigate lines and you're paying $20 US for a hot dog and I don't know what the price is.
Speaker 1:But you know it's 7 US for a Coke. Yeah, it's not far away.
Speaker 2:So is that the holiday you need to reconnect as a family.
Speaker 2:Yeah Would going to Vietnam and, you know, staying with some Hill Tribe up in Sapa or, you know, going at African safari, as you talked about, or doing something a little bit differently. That's going to reconnect you and have great experience, lifelong experiences. I posed this question to my boys over the dinner table a couple of weeks ago Now. Would you go to? If, when, back when you were in primary school, and you have the option to go Africa or Disneyland, what would you pick? One said Africa, one said Disneyland and the one I said to Disneyland I said so when we went to Hong Kong Disneyland what was your favorite ride? And he couldn't tell me. Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I remember when we finished Hong Kong Disneyland that day and I said, oh, boys, what was your favorite thing? And they said the fairy floss, right, so, so we have all these expectations of what we're going to get out of this holiday.
Speaker 2:But sometimes we need to just pair that back a little bit. So the other side of that is, you know, traveling without children or traveling for yourself. I think if, particularly in your middle ages, when you start to I don't know sometimes you start to analyze and reflect a bit more, when you're a little bit older, if you've just been made redundant or you're a little bit lost or whatever there's, you know, don't go on a library resort in Bali for a week with cocktails Like go and do something that's going to invigorate you and inspire you.
Speaker 2:I think we really need to be inspired from travel and particularly times in our lives, you know. So if you're feeling a bit lost and you're middle aged, you know go and walk the Milford track or go and you know, hike to Kota if you're, you know, if you're that way inclined or well, go and get somewhere like.
Speaker 3:Uluru, where you can go and do some active walks, kings Canyon, just. I remember we did that last year and that was so inspiring, just to connect with country, to understand a bit more about indigenous stories and just be there. It's just stunning, like that night sky. There's nothing quite like it. It's yeah, just something. That's not. I mean, I'm all for a relaxing holiday, but that even itself, because it's morning and evening, so you could still relax in the middle of the day and then you'd be up early and do these walks that were just so memorable.
Speaker 2:So you used to be inspired there. But also you felt connected, yes, like connected to nature. And connected to life rather than the busy busy of things. So you've encapsulated kind of my mission there with regards to how I look at travel.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's so special and I think I really admire it's the courage to challenge people on that, because it is it's like well, what's the Instagram worthy? What's everyone else doing? Everyone's in Europe? What 300, you know places are they seeing in two weeks? And I love that you've got the courage to kind of challenge that, because even you've just challenged me about the Disneyland. I'm reflecting on that now a bit internally. But yeah, thank you, because we do, if that, 7% of your year to take time on yourself and, I think, without the families as well, I think that's an important part.
Speaker 3:I remember a friend a year ago. She said I have three kinds of holidays every year. I have a family holiday, like at least three, but three styles. I have a time away with my husband and they had three kids, I think, at the time. And I also have a trip away on my own. And I thought at the time I'd never taken time away on my own yet and Andy and I maybe hadn't been away being parents, we hadn't been away on our own either. And I thought, oh, honestly, I thought it was a bit selfish. And now I'm like, oh, when's the next time I can go away on my own, because I remember going, even just to hit and bail even though it wasn't anything extraordinary far away, but to be connecting with nature, to sitting on that deck just enjoying, and the amount of ideas and creativity that came into my mind when I was up.
Speaker 3:There was actually mind blowing.
Speaker 2:And that links to from a corporate point of view as well. So I know, when I'm out hiking or what have you, that's when I get my best ideas and I sort of question from a corporate retreat or conference point of view, why go and take your whole team away somewhere and do stuff that you could do in the boardroom back at the office?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah we kind of, yeah, let's take them somewhere different, we'll do the same stuff and hope for a different outcome. It kind of doesn't make sense and it's sort of this sim, this formula that's been used for the donkeys. So I love to try, and if I'm working with corporates on retreats or things like that is just how can we do this a little bit differently?
Speaker 1:And get outside the mall. Yes, put that connection piece in there so that, so that people feel connected, I guess yeah absolutely Talking about spices.
Speaker 2:my favourite because short breaks are important as well. Yeah, my favourite is spices tamarind up in the rainforest up there at Malaney and a two or three night break there, I come back feeling like I've had a two week holiday. So, it doesn't have to be these big grand breaks, but it's all important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and actually literally that was our first, if I recall that correctly. I think the first time we went away we went for two nights at Tamarind and I felt exactly the same. We came back going wow, wow.
Speaker 1:We sat down near the river at the back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that little waterfall, we sat down near the waterfall for a couple of hours and it was so nice. Yes, stunning and just nature, it's just beautiful.
Speaker 2:Do you remember the conference we did there in about 2013? I do.
Speaker 3:That was the first time I ever went, and I thank you for that, because we went to spices, the Montville one.
Speaker 2:Clavelli.
Speaker 3:Clavelli and I walked in there.
Speaker 2:We got married and I walked in there.
Speaker 3:That was the one I was with Hodjo and we're on our conference and I walked in and I said this is where we're going to get married. I'm going to have to bring Andy back. We're going to get married here and we got married at spices Clavelli. Yeah, they've got incredible shout out to spices, but they really actually have incredible short breaks for people at base here in Brisbane in particular. Yeah, so, so important.
Speaker 3:And I love what you're saying about the corporate stuff. I remember hearing you speak about that and it really got me thinking. You know how often are we taking these conferences and we know like they cost a lot of money for people. You get speakers in facilitators, you're spending the transport, the food, the drinks to get everyone away and then you might be sitting in some fluros on the Gold Coast or some fluro light in a room with not a lot of natural light and, as you say about, you could just be doing that in your office boardroom.
Speaker 3:So what are you doing and reflecting on those kind of trips and conferences over the years where you might go? Do you remember we did ones like there was the Adelaide half marathon, the Melbourne half marathon, different walking events from spices and things. That just getting people outside and connecting that way and those relationships and that connection you can't, you can't do that in other, like you can't force it, force it and that happens so fast. Those connections happen so fast when you're in a different environment. So, yeah, I think there's such a potential for people to be like how am I, what am I doing for my quarterly offsite, so my annual conference? How am I taking people outside something different, where it's really it's physical but it's it's mind and connection is powerful.
Speaker 2:We have. I think, as humans, that we have better conversations when we're outside. Yeah, particularly for men. Men don't sit across a table in a coffee shop and have a deep conversation. Men are more likely to open up when they're out active, on a, you know, a half day hike or we're doing, doing something that is is not forced.
Speaker 2:You've got to sort of let let that conversation flow. I think you know females tend to be a little bit more open and happy to talk about that. But from a corporate point of view, you know, getting your people out there they're going to be thinking differently, clearer, they're going to have better conversations. And it comes back to as a corporate. If you're planning a conference and it's costing you $100,000 for this conference, you're going to want to get as much as you can outright, and that's the same as planning a holiday.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, it's going to be 20 grand. I need to get as much out of this as possible, but less is more and restraint in these sorts of things get you a better outcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's so true, and people don't always think about that, do they? Don't always think that way. I think I feel like, have we? Sorry, we'll edit this part out and, if you want to jump down the timing, but is there anything on your list that we haven't covered off on here? Lots of reasons not delegating, I feel like. Is there anything from the travels? I feel like we're kind of touched on all those, but is there anything you want to go deeper in?
Speaker 2:We've talked a bit about the business owners and that sort of stuff. Do you want to go to more of a leadership slant? A little bit there of anything that people can you know the key things that allow them to take more breaks.
Speaker 3:Or leaders to give their people like, encourage their people to take more breaks, actually.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a good little, yeah, cool, awesome, hojo. Actually, we were just saying how we just came back from Fiji at the time of this recording, only two days ago, and I remember sending a message to the team and my first my we do a weekly recap of what we did you achieve this week. And I sent mine and I said, oh, without rubbing it in like I had a week of really doing not a lot, but a lot of thinking time, which was beautiful. When is everyone's next break? Because I just really passionately believe we need to be encouraging people to take breaks as well, not just take them ourselves. What do you, what are your thoughts on that? What are you here and see with leaders in regards to, I guess, helping facilitate and encourage people to take breaks?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting point to look at because a lot of leaders will be looking at their annual leave balance sheet and saying when are you taking a break from a logistical managing?
Speaker 2:my managing my balance sheet, I've got too much annual leave accrued, and that's important. But in those one-on-one conversations, coaching conversations, you know, probably going a little bit deeper and almost becoming a bit of a travel coach, I say, well, what do you want to do, like, what do you, what would you love to do if you could? You know, having those sorts of conversations might just inspire your, your team, to take the breaks that they should take, rather than just saying when are you going to take? Look, get out of logistical mode with your people and get into actual.
Speaker 2:you know, let's be a bit of a travel coach with them and and get them a bit inspired and excited. I think is a great way to to go. The other thing I would say is I'd love to see more companies and leaders managing the the week or two before someone goes on leave better. So quite often it's like oh, sherry, you're going on holidays in two weeks time. I need you to do this, this and this and this and this, this before you go, and then Friday night before your holiday, you leave the office at seven and you're flying out the next morning and you're frantic and you haven't packed and it's all a bit of a nightmare, right? So wouldn't it be great if leaders actually acknowledged that a bit better and said well, actually, team Sherry's going on holidays in two weeks. She's got a couple of big projects on her her plate.
Speaker 2:Let's look at who's going to take care of those now and start that handover process. Sherry can still do the leg work, but you're going to champion this project now. So that's how do we do that? Because otherwise we fall into a holiday like we fall over the finish line of a marathon, and then it takes you three or four days to actually unwind on the holiday.
Speaker 2:So, as a as a leader of a team, how can you make sure that they walk out of the office at three 30 on that Friday? Inbox is clear. They're not stressed Now. Wouldn't that be a real gift.
Speaker 3:You know, I've never thought about that ever before. I can't believe that I haven't and I really appreciate you saying that. And literally we had the conversation last week. I think Andy, on day three or four, said I'm starting to feel relaxed now and I thought I feel like I was already relaxed, but I think it was because I'd been away for work a few days earlier, so my inbox was done, my tasks were done a couple of days before the holiday and yeah, we were literally saying that and how we can then take a proactive role for supporting our people and maybe the boundaries I don't know this is not a popular opinion or not but to not contact people when they're on holidays, like and actually tell them full permission, you are off. You know, as business owners that can be a little bit different for a business owners, but if you've got people in your teams to actually say them no, no Slack, no messages, no emails you are off and kind of give gift that permission. Yeah, I think on that one.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Giving, giving permission, and I don't know if you remember, I took a holiday probably 2014, 2015, when you're affording to me and I made a I made a conscious, I guess decision to say, guys, I'm off, this isn't off the grid holiday, and that those words actually was I didn't really know at the time, but quite powerful because the team got right. Okay, so off the grid. And you're just setting the expectations with three words. Yes.
Speaker 2:Which is awesome and one of the things I've done some work with some you know SME businesses over the last few years during COVID, you know, sort of helped me. While there wasn't much trouble going on and one of the one of the greatest moments there was after the first year working with this business, we did a bit of an annual review, not a performance review, just an annual review of how did the year go, what are the plans for the year ahead? And out of six store managers we asked them what which are biggest learning from the year and five of them said my team are more capable than I give them credit for and I think that links to leaders taking holidays.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Quite often, if you've got a good culture, they will do a great job while you're gone and they're actually going to grow from the experience of. Why are we so fearful of taking time off?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, completely. That's probably your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree. We're in a position, probably with our business, where we have complete trust in the people that we have. So when we, when we take a break, we know that there are certain things. You know there are certain things that we'll be taken care of and there will be certain things. But I know from speaking to a lot of small business owners, or even medium business owners, or even big companies with leaders in them, they just don't have that culture Like something you said before.
Speaker 1:There's a friend of mine who's I know on three and a half weeks leave at the moment and he he was talking about, oh man, even the five days or so before he, before he went, there was an all nighter in there to prepare and then there was working till 9pm every night, including the day that he was flying out at 9pm.
Speaker 1:He worked until 6pm and then I think he even he might have gone home first, he might have met his family at the airport. There was that I need to do everything and then that might be enough to buy me four or five days while I'm overseas, but then I'll have to log on and do some more while I'm away and it kind of like it's just a bit of a head scratcher and he's he's got a strong work ethic, strong work ethic attached to it. But I look at that and I just think, no, and I hope that we never, that we never run a company that that is like that you know, because like it's important to have that work ethic, it's equally important to have a good, strong work ethic.
Speaker 1:But it's equally important to have boundaries, and sometimes with a strong work ethic doesn't always come great boundaries. And so it's our responsibility, I think, his employees and employees, to speak up and say you know, to say no or to say it's an off the grid. Every holiday should be an off the grid holiday. There should be no on the grid holiday, in my view at least, like it's not a thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so practically I feel like there's in a small business. I do see that as a slightly different challenge because, for an example, just this week, at the moment, three of us in the business and so two of us being married couple, were away, and then Mandy was actually on two days annual leave at the same time. So I remember I said to on the Monday and Tuesday at school holidays, so it's not as busy for us. But I said, oh, my commitment is I will. I did not take my laptop, I will take my phone and my email and I'll just check my email once or twice a day Just if there's anything that actually needs actioning. We're running a business. I don't want to let the customers down.
Speaker 3:But I said to Mandy there won't be slacks, there won't be social posts. You know personal one, sure, but if you actually need me, please just send me a text, because I won't be checking all those other things, my notifications will be off. So I felt like she's, I won't need to contact you. I said I know you won't, I know you won't, but if you need to, I will be there. And she didn't, and but it would have been okay. But I think again, those, those boundaries and I said, oh you know, if we're off on the island I'm not going to be responding to emails, but in the morning or the evening I'll just check from a responsibility perspective and I was okay with that.
Speaker 1:When we go.
Speaker 1:Sorry to add to that as well, I and maybe to clarify my points before I present maybe a utopian view in terms of how I would like things to happen, but I've never still had the, I've never had the confidence to actually turn on my out of office since I've been at Luminates, I've been in the business you know now for for two and a half years and I just hasn't been a thing. Because by default, I will check it, you know, from time to time because there's things that need to be done and while I can absolutely trust to turn on email forwards and things you know that way, to delegate to someone else in the team, it's just probably not. I don't know, in my view, maybe not that necessary at this point where being a.
Speaker 2:You guys are in start-up mode as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:But if it was a long if, if in five or 10 years you were still in the same position you have to be quite hands on then. So when you're starting up a business, there's, there's the grind for a few years, right? So you talk about the utopian like we need to be real. Yeah. And I just thought you know what's your plan. I see a lot of SMEs where If they can't afford to take time off, then it's either a leadership issue or a business model issue. Yeah business model.
Speaker 3:You basically just got a job. You don't have a business.
Speaker 2:If you can't take time off your business model, your margins, your volume, your products, whatever it is is not where it should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard that like that expression, that you work for a job. Yeah. Or you have a bit and there's like a four quadrants attached to what it is to run a company. But then you work backwards and there's you work for a job, you work for a business, and then you can run a company.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's true, and it's a good I think is a good challenge for people to reflect and ask themselves. One thing you said there about affording and it was a question I thought before. You know, and we want to be a travel coach for our team and asking them what experiences do you want? What we might come across as people saying, well, I'd love to take a week off with my family, but I can't afford it financially. What advice or thoughts do you have there?
Speaker 2:There's always options. Really, you know, travel doesn't have to be to Africa or Europe or United States etc. So you can have an amazing family holiday. And I'm sure we've got you know, all got memories of great family holidays when we were younger, so it doesn't have to be like just go down to Kingscliff or a week.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And just be by the beach, and or it doesn't, it could even just be three or four days away. This is a bit of a reset. So we kind of put holidays as these. They become these big things and then they don't happen quite often and sometimes you just got to, got to chip away at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, and I think that's so important because you do hear people I haven't got the money to go on this big trip and like but are you going to wait three years before you have a break with your family Because you might be saving for that big trip? Fine, but yeah, how do you find those shorter breaks? And actually maybe COVID? We got to reflect back on COVID for us in Queensland when we're locked down. We did lots of smaller breaks and see Southeast Queensland and there was so much to see and do that didn't necessarily cost the same amount as those big trips. So I think that's a good reminder.
Speaker 2:What was amazing during COVID with domestic holidays was people were paying the amount that they were paying for holidays they would never have done before COVID. Like I remember, last year I did a holiday for a couple to Darwin for seven nights. They did some tours and that sort of stuff. They were going in a peak period. I think that holiday cost them $10,000. And they didn't. They didn't stay at you know the.
Speaker 3:Ritz-Carlton.
Speaker 2:And no one would ever have spent $10,000 on a holiday to Darwin.
Speaker 3:To Darwin no.
Speaker 2:But they probably spent. You know the flights were probably $1,400 each return. Back when prices were crazy, commodation was probably $700 a night at the vibe. Yeah. Yeah, that sort of stuff. Wow, it really changed our perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, and and I think, the reminder through COVID, when we were so limited with what we could experience, how important having a break, how important almost not needing the big. I'm all for a bucket list, but not having to have this like everyone else's bucket list as your bucket list. Go and have those experiences together, yeah, so good. Where's your next holiday, hojo?
Speaker 2:We, I hope to go to New Zealand next year with my boys being 16 and 15, ski holiday New Zealand. They haven't been in New Zealand. We think that's really important for them to go and experience New Zealand. So, you know, teenagers, you sort of look at it a little bit differently, to say, the primary school children when you. But you know, just going to Europe this year, we saw so much growth in the boys. It was such an important age for them to go and see a really spectacular part of the world. We did some really cool things, so so that has planted the seed of travel for them, which was my main goal. So, but yeah, next year will be Europe's not cheap.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I'm just reflecting on having a big trip to Europe.
Speaker 2:We might tone down 2024 and keep close to home and do a ski holiday in New Zealand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so good. Where was the highlight for Europe, for you guys?
Speaker 2:My highlight was and it was a real bucket list was hiking the Chinque Terre for a day that the weather was beautiful. It was hot and exhausting, but I just loved it. I'm just just in my happy place there.
Speaker 2:I had some complaining teenagers, but they said that that was their highlight of one of the highlights of the trip after the fact anyway. So but we had, I mean we went. We were up Mount Titlis in Switzerland. That was an amazing day, the weather was beautiful that day and Barcelona doing a bike tour in Barcelona and then we ended up. The reason for the trip was a wedding in Munich, One of my best mates, and just to be part of the wedding celebrations in Germany was awesome.
Speaker 3:So how fun my sister, my brother-in-law, proposed my sister at the Chinque Terre.
Speaker 2:It's a very special place there was a lot of Australians on that track yeah yeah, it's stunning, so good have you been there.
Speaker 3:I haven't actually Well put on your list Beautiful.
Speaker 2:It was a lot better than trying to fight 2000 people at the Trevi Fountain for a photo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and there you go about. Am I just getting the picture so that I can say, been there, done that, or what experience am I actually having? Yeah, it's a good question for us all, hajo, if we move away from travel, or maybe it's part of your answer, but what are the things you do personally these days to develop yourself?
Speaker 2:So podcasts.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:I listen to a lot of podcasts. I do like learning and I find they're a great way, even from a as a travel advisor. There's so many good travel podcasts out there. So if I've got a client that's doing a big trip to somewhere where I haven't been before, I'll put on some podcasts in my driving or what have you, and then it just I'm always curious. So just different podcasts are great. I don't read as much now because podcasts have sort of become prevalent. If that makes sense. I get a lot of information that way and from a. I guess from a wellness point of view I still like hiking. That's my happy place and actually one one thing that I use that I love is an acupressure mat. Oh so it's a few out there.
Speaker 2:The brand I use is Shakti mat, so it's sort of the principles of the old bed of nails, but it's a mat that you roll out and it's got all these like thousands of plastic spikes on it, and mainly it's for your back. But I, I, I lie on it, and actually I was lying on the last night and I fell asleep. I fall asleep on it all the time, which is counterintuitive, right, cause you're laying on these sharp plastic spikes, but what it does, it promotes blood pressure, blood flow to your back. But what I find really beneficial is that it it calms my nervous system. There's this at the start you feel the pressure of the spikes, but then all of a sudden, this calm comes over your body and so I have it next to my bed. If I wake up, if I'm a bit of insomnia and I can't sleep, I'll roll out and roll that out, and and I actually took it overseas, so like it rolls up easy like a yoga mat.
Speaker 3:I just folded it, yeah.
Speaker 2:And for jet lag. I think it was actually really good in my hotel room just laying on this acupressure mat. Wow. It's yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people that don't know about them and it was $60. And it is a great tool if you're stressed, if you're back sore, if you just need a little bit of chill. You know it's good to put your headphones on, put on some meditation music and yeah, and you're away it's it's like this underused or unknown piece of gold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, so many, so many free ads in this podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm thinking, why don't I have that in my arsenal?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Thank you for that, that's good.
Speaker 3:I'm getting one. Thank you, I probably didn't need to say that We'll edit that part out now.
Speaker 1:Keep it in, it'll be fun.
Speaker 3:Now I feel like that's another joke from another time of life as well. But go into the gutter. All right, hojo, if we can do you want to do the last question, actually, andy, because go, I'm going to give Andy the last question, the kindest bit. Is there anything else you want to go through?
Speaker 2:No, I think we.
Speaker 3:And I've called you Hojo is that okay? You don't mind I'm like, oh gosh, maybe you're more professional now. I'm Mark Hodgson.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'm not precious. No, my name's Mark. Yeah, sorry, that's good. Actually, one of our archetypes for who we define our customer is a Mark. So is he awesome? Yeah, he is also. Yeah, he's an important part of what we do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, always Over to you.
Speaker 1:Hojo, maybe to finish us up today, and thanks so much for your time, your generosity and sharing. I've loved it. Maybe haven't said as much and I'm taking my two seconds down to do so while I ask our last question for the day is what's the kind of thing that someone's done for you?
Speaker 2:I knew this question was coming as well and I've had a fair thought about this and I can only come back to my mother, and there are these people who obviously done some kind things, small kind things throughout my life, but when I think about my mom being my mom, I can't think of a time where she wasn't warm, supportive, non-judgmental, just always there, and really the kindest thing that everyone's ever done for me is really to be my mom and be supportive. And how can I, how can you beat that? So yeah, that's probably my answer to that question, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah, beautiful yeah beautiful.
Speaker 1:I kind of think about a couple of moments that I think you've said today with which have really resonated in kindness, and I can't remember if they were on air or off air, but they were. I think a lot of the stories you've told have sort of embodied kindness in that way. You mentioned, you know, daz when you applied for that role as well, and kind of talking you into and talking you out of it. Was that part on?
Speaker 1:air or not. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was that and a couple of other things. So they're beautiful and I think that's a great way to polish it off. So thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much and we will put in the links for the business and how people can get in touch with you and we encourage that they do. But thank you, I think, for bringing such a fresh flavour to what is travel and such an important perspective of taking breaks and what an important part of our lives that creates. And just thank you for being you, thank you for the time and it's lovely to see you.
Speaker 2:Thanks guys, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you.