Property staging with Elissa of Sable Interiors

Join us in this enlightening episode as we dive deep into the world of property styling and staging with Elissa Walsh, the visionary behind Sable Interiors. Discover the intricacies and challenges of transforming spaces for the real estate market in Melbourne. Learn from Elissa’s journey from a mature age student to a where she is now, her accidental foray into property styling, and how she navigated the complexities of running a business that's both creative and logistical.

Elissa shares invaluable insights on building relationships with real estate agents, the importance of problem-solving on the fly, and why property styling is more than just making spaces look beautiful—it's about enhancing property value and solving real-world problems. Whether you're considering property styling as a career or seeking to expand your interior design business, this episode is packed with practical advice, from managing logistics to understanding the business's financial aspects.

Tune in to discover why property styling is a fascinating, rewarding career path and learn the secrets to success from one of the industry's best. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the business behind the beauty of interior design and property styling.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. I'm so lucky today to be joined by Elisa, Walt, who is an interior designer who runs Sable interiors, a Melbourne property styling and staging company. I don't know what it is about property stylists and staging, but in so fascinated by it. I have a couple of private clients that I coach. Who are stages stylists and just seeing the backend of their businesses and understanding more about their relationships with real estate agents and the things that the logistics and the things that they go through. It is so different for the way I operate my own design business. That. It's yeah, fascinating to me. And it's one of the main reasons I love exploring different facets of the design industry in this podcast. Cause they get to crack it open and ask all the questions that I'm dying to know. Yeah, I love that for me. Today's conversation was a really great one. I learned a lot. There was a lot of things I didn't really factor in. A lot of things I hadn't thought about. So if you're considering property staging as something you might like to get into in the future, Or if you're thinking, oh, that's like the easy way to do things. You just stage it up. Go in, go out that sort of thing. This is the episode for you because I think it's really brings a lot to light about what's involved in the backend and why it is actually. Very complicated, very much a problem solving Rubik's cube and a lot happens on the day, which I am aware of from my other clients that are constantly like, oh my gosh, this thing just went down and I'm like, oh, that does not happen in my business. I am currently building out a huge section inside of the framework for anyone who's looking to get into property styling and staging. I've been so blessed to partner up with some of those private coaching clients of mine who have helped me create different templates and have gifted me a lot of backend and inside knowledge have shared so much of what they do in their business, so that I'm able to share it with more people in the industry. So I'm feeling. Very excited for that. That's something that should be arriving into the framework in the next few months. I will let you know on the podcast when that is live, but until then, please enjoy my conversation with. Alisa I don't know a lot about your business, so I'd love for you to tell me about Sable Interiors and how you got into property styling and like just a bit of background stuff. Yeah, sure. I went back as a mature age student and studied. It was something I always wanted to do and So basically I fell accidentally into real estate styling. I think a lot of us do, to be honest. When I was doing study, I actually fell pregnant accidentally with my third child. The idea was that I was going to be doing design work while she was little and when she got to school, I could utilize before school, after school care. And. I was trying to build a portfolio with design things. So my first real estate styling job was I was helping someone with his first flip for profit and it was in Ivanhoe. He wanted an extra bedroom, extra bathroom under the roof line, and I did all that, concept floor plans Habit tree lighting, the whole works. And at the end he ran out of money and he rang me and he said, Lisa, what am I going to do? I can't afford the stylist, what can I do? I've got some nice furniture of my own and I've got a really nice king sofa and all sorts of things like that. So I said show me what you've got. And I'll have a look at what I've got. And basically we pulled something together. And then then about a month later, my husband and I had a little investment property in East Melbourne and we had it tenanted for many years. And we decided that we would sell it. And. It's actually the Tribeca, which is the old Melbourne brewery in East Melbourne. And we bought off plan, which is a whole nother conversation and I've never did. But so the only really good thing about it, cause it was teeny, teeny tiny and it was dark and it was all sorts of things. So we did a mini makeover. But the really good thing was its location. And we also had a balcony, a very small balcony that looked down Victoria Parade and you could see down Richmond. And if you turn to the right, you could see a light from the MCG. And then down below where the bedrooms were, there was the original brick facade formed like this beautiful little terrace, tiny, like the tenants use it as an ashtray. That's, it was horrible the way they treated it. But we came in and I did Trees basically, I, about trees that are like as high as a person and we put them around the edge and a little cafe sitting down there. And then up above we did because you can only do another little cafe sitting up there, but we made I got made a long bench and it could take four stools and I had a little small apartment sized barbecue and I had, some little herbs growing and stuff like that. So really. Made sure that it's best features. We really played up and that was not something that anyone had done before. And the agent that we sold through continued to use me. That's where I first got my jobs. And seven years later, I'm still there. I'm still working with that agency in yeah, in Melbourne CBD. And they specialize in warehouse heritage and unusual properties. So you get to see so many amazing places. I've seen some of that on your Instagram. I'm always crushing on the, the lobbies and the carpets and the curtains and you see some incredible stuff. Yeah, I think there's a few people who do that accidentally or have Just assumptions about property styling or staging that maybe aren't that true. Like I feel even when I was coming into studying, I was like, Oh, I'll do some interior design stuff. And then when my kids go to school, I'll just do property styling in Monday to Friday. Like I thought it was the kind of job that, that'll really suit primary school hours when all my kids are in school and I. No, a lot more now than I did then, but I feel like that was like my entry point. And I was like, this is the five year plan. Do a bit of a design, do a bit of this when the baby's a little, then go into property styling and staging. And it's actually such a different ball game. It's so physical, so demanding. I can't imagine doing spring market between 10 and two every day. I think. I had such a weird perception of it. Do you find that in the industry that other designers as they're coming in or just in general when you talk to people they've got a bit of an assumption about what it is that you do that's not really true to what you do? Absolutely. I think Yes, there's times when, if you're doing something very local, that you can do that 10 till 2 type thing but it really depends on where your location is. For instance, in the CBD, everything takes twice as long as it would in the city. Even getting a car park. Oh, that's right. Like I'm thinking constantly when I go to do a quote, I'm thinking about loading zones, how I'm thinking about where am I going to park for the day? And I'm thinking about lift dimensions. I'm thinking about corridor dimensions, whereabouts or is situated in the corridor. And can I get a piece of furniture, like something large, like a sofa through it as well as. What's going on in the property itself. I'm thinking about collecting keys. And if you want to do a right hand turn, sometimes you've got to go two blocks to be able to do the right hand turn. So everything, yeah, that's right. Everything takes a lot longer and and also getting caught in peak hour traffic, like a 10, 15 minutes can make a big difference between getting back to pick up kids or to take them to sport compared to not. Being there. That can all those sorts of things can make a big difference. And then, if you're doing the suburb work it's a lot easier from the point of view as. Often there's lock boxes at the properties. You don't have to worry about keys so much. You can pull up someone's driveway. But then it's got its own sort of set of circumstances because often the properties are much larger and they pull a lot of stock compared. An apartment in the city. And, sometimes you're doing a lot more integrated or partial styles. And if owners are hanging around that can take longer too. So I think at the end of the day, it's not something you can clock off. It's not a nine to five. Yeah. It's more I need to get this job done because the photographer's coming in, so I have to do however long it takes. And if something goes wrong, which sometimes do even with the best planning, you just need to problem solve. And I think being a real estate stylist, as well as being creative, you so need to be someone who can problem solve on the spot, on the fly. You need to have a great toolbox of, It's when you play school, they have the useful box now, you need plan B box and C and D, like need to have so much through with you and the ability to be able to pivot and turn. And even like your iron might have worked yesterday perfectly, but today it's died, like quick. Where do I go find an iron? All these sorts of things. There's, so many times that can go pear shaped through the day, even with the best planning, that you just really need to be able to problem solve on the fly. I think that's such an underrated skill of designers in general, and so many designers have taught themselves. I just don't talk that up enough when it comes to your responsibility and take full service design. For example, you're advocating for the client, you're communicating with the trades, you're, doing the construction of drawings and stuff goes wrong all the time. And I see really often people, Oh my goodness, this is happening on the project. What do I do? Oh my God, I'm at fault. And it's breathe, you're being paid to sort out the problems. So actually a big part of our job is being the clear thinker, the problem solver, the person who knows what the contractor needs, knows what the client's ultimate outcome is, knows what And if there's a reason that isn't coming to fruition, we are the people that hold the skill to have a happy accident that then becomes the favorite part of the project often, and not to panic and to be like that, that, yeah, my iron doesn't work. So what? Everybody's pulse stopped. We're not brains. Like the iron doesn't work. There's a Kmart somewhere, right? Let's just go get one for today, throw some money at the problem and move forward. Does not matter. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So talk to me about when you first started, so you fell into it. And that happens a lot with property sellers that I talk to where they were starting off their design career. Somebody was selling the house and said, Hey, would you like to play in my house basically, or can we use your skills for free, which is generally what's happening with it's just like practice on us. You can have the real estate photography afterwards and so on. And I see a lot of that sort of thing happening, but what was the initial challenges in starting the business? Did you sit down with your husband? Did you invest in furniture, like logistics, how was all of that at the beginning? It's all of that. Yeah. Basically you are building, it's a, it's actually a very expensive business to be involved in because of purchase for instance. It is massive and it's ongoing. It's not just once off, oh, I've got this now I'm done. No, it's a constant investment. It's also, I think a lot of property stylists start with, one property and they build from there. So every time a job comes in, you're quickly going out trying to source the appropriate thing. So sometimes it can be a snatch and grab there's it can be bad as well. Sometimes you're purchasing stock that you may not ideally want. Plugs a hole in the moment in that job, but then you've got, And if that's It's just 120 cushion here or there, but that adds up from a bottom line perspective. If it's not, we would never tell a client to go in unplanned without a move or without a list without, if you want the ultimate outcome, then I imagine going in a completely different way, which is to plan inventory plan packs that interchange stylistically and palette wise so that you're like, Oh, if I've got a partial over there, but I've still got a few of those cushions, they work with this other so far. And. Yeah. So for someone to start up, and do that where it's all these planned things, you are having massive investment. I've another stylist who did it and she, she dropped 150 K. Like not many people have that ability or. That's a lot of money. And let's be honest, many designers do not have the faith in their ability at that point or confidence to be like, yeah, back it in 150 K. No worries. Like at the very beginning, I mostly speak to people who need. Validation from clientele. They need to be booking before they want to invest or before they want to step up to that next level, because they start to go, okay, maybe this is a real thing. Everyone doubts if they're a bit like lacking in talent until someone continuously tells you love your work, love what you're doing. I'm really enjoying it. And it's also it's to make that kind of investment without really being in the industry is also. You need to be able to do a few jobs to get a feel for it. And because, and like I said, you have to be problem solving so many times it's not for the faint hearted. So if you're investing a mass amount of inventory which is wonderful, you get into it and feel like, Oh my goodness, I'm completely over, overhead, I just can't do this. This is maybe not for me. So it is about trying to. Like house by house, build your stock. And then it's I think the girls that you did with young commoner in the interview there, they completely nailed it. And they said about the whole warehousing it's about. Are you putting it in their garage and then build a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger and now look at them go exactly. And and I've been watching them and they're just so nailing it. And I'm just loving that. But it's the whole thing about those next steps. It's about setting up a warehouse. It's about, are you going to get a van? There's all these costs. Some people go and get a truck. It's massive amounts of outlay all the time. So we have questions like that come up all the time. Cause we've got some property stylists inside of my course, the framework, and they'll be like asking each other do you have a band? Do you hire, do you have logistics companies, I can just work with the one, do you outsource, do you man with the van, do you air tasker it, do you just drive your own van around, like seeing those questions come up in our private app and you're like, of course, there's so many different ways. And I loved one of them was answered with You really write your pros and cons list almost for this particular job. Is it worth if and another tip that came out was like, why don't you look into like budget rental, but I pick it up at three o'clock the night before, so you can prepack it. And then as long as you drop it off by three o'clock the next afternoon, it's still a 24 hour hire. You still pay the same amount and like little tips like that are being shared inside of the group that I love because I would never think to do that. I feel like, I don't know, just and this is the whole thing. You have to be able to really think outside the square, and you need to be And the problem solving all the time in this industry. Like a lot of industries, but in this one, it's also very fast paced. So you're doing so much with no notice or very little notice. And everyone thinks they're the only person who's just decided to sell their house. Imagine like people, that's why you might've done a quote. I've had one. I did it four months ago. And then I've got a frantic phone call saying, when can you put it in? And I'm like, Oh okay. Bye. And do you think it's a challenge that you mentioned before that you do work with some specific properties, which I noticed as well that are not not mainstream, but like more heritage listed or that sort of stuff. So do you need to have items in inventory that reflect the architecture and reflect the period of the home, a little bit more than just like constantly throwing contemporary modern styling into those sorts of properties. How have you found that? So I have got pieces that I hold specifically for this particular agency because when we do something that's a bit more warehousey or industrial, I might have a few pieces that I hold for them that I wouldn't necessarily use somewhere else. That 100%, although I could use it in some of the other places like Fitzroy, Northgate, Thornberry, they can have some similar vibes as well. So there, there's a. places you can do that. But I try and have things that are just a little bit more a contemporary that you can. So even if I'm doing a warehouse situation, let's just say I might have I've got a neon light example. Yeah. Okay. And that's not going to work everywhere. You wouldn't put it in a townhouse in Ivanhoe, but you might put it over there. Yeah. Exactly right. But I'll pair it with some more contemporary sofas and things that you could reuse elsewhere anyway. So you're trying to, appeal to a certain market, but you also want to keep it not looking frat house, at the same time, not too warehousy. You want it to be, like, elevated warehousy. So you're still using a contemporary base, but you're throwing little kind of items in there that could be a little vintage could be like I said, like a neon light could be those sorts of things. And yeah, those sorts of things I would hold directly for those kind of agents for that purpose. And even because I do plants, but I will only use those for certain agents who I know are going to look after them because, putting in let's just say you could spend, I don't know, 150 on a decent size plant and if it's out on a Or in someone's backyard type thing. It wouldn't last two weeks at my house. So yeah, if you'd lent it out to me, I am so sorry, but you're only getting the pot and the dirt. Exactly. Yeah. So I have to pick my agents as to who I will do those sorts of things for, because it's a mess when, if they die there, that's so much money down the drain. And how did you find the process of learning? I'm always really curious about, within the interior design realm with all the contracts and all the learnings and all the possible mistakes that could happen. I always think within property styling, there's this whole other world of you killed my plant. And I bought that over to your house and now the neon sign has a hole in it. Or, how did you find the learning of how to do that? Did you engage? Lawyer, did you ask other property stylists what you should be looking out for? How did you approach it? Just basically learning on the job, really. We do, a lot of stylists, we do have Facebook pages and stuff like that as well that there's a lot of venting. I imagine. Like there is that as well. And other people's circumstances then where they're like, we just went to pick up a rug and it's been completely soiled. What should we do? And then then you see some more experienced people might jump in with you're just going to have to call it swings and roundabouts on that one and learn next time. And. Cause I reckon when I was new, I'd be like, my rug, like you owe me 2, 000. And the next time, maybe don't spend that on something you're lending out and go with something kind of mid range. Yeah, and it is also people skills like when you go into a property and you're going to quote, it's about really picking up on the people that are doing it, getting those vibes. It's like red flags when you're doing a design, right? So if you can look around and you know that generally when people are getting their property ready, there's a bit of chaos happening because they're decluttering. Like that, you can look past that, but then you can look at the general level of cleanliness. For instance, the grime layers on the wall tell a tale. Absolutely. You can see if there's pets, you can see if there's young children and and that's where the questions are insofar as okay, will the pets be here for the duration of the. The stage or I've had it as well where there's young children and I will say, look, I have chair, a dining chair, a, and I have dining chair, B dining chair, B would look amazing, but dining chair, a is going to be That's right. And and I'll say if you choose dining chair, you will need to do this in order to make sure that they stay in a really good situation. Take them off into another room on a day to day basis and just bring them in on your inspection days and stuff like that. But if you do. Dining chair, a, you can use it for the duration that kids consider. It's wipeable dah. So I'll give people that as well. So they feel as if they're in control a little bit of their lives. Cause this it's such a big thing. It's so stressed and even just keeping their house tidy while they're living in it can be really confronting and that, and it's their biggest assets generally that they're selling and they don't know yet what they did, like their hopes are pinned on getting a good price for the house and like it's, Very nerve wracking time and emotional. Yeah. So I try to make it always really easy for them and I want to give them I want to help them if that makes sense. But. That you would just back out of because you look around and go, my things are just going to get completely trashed. So in terms of knowing how to hold that boundary, and obviously that's a learned skill, like the very first time we get a gut feeling gut check that goes, I don't know if this is the best place for all of this invested furniture to be. How did you approach knowing how to write that templated email or be firm but fair or sorry we don't have capacity to take on that work right now or where did you get the advice from to, to approach it? Go back to the agent, number one. Communicate it with them and just say, look, I've been through these are my concerns and, really, because I think having good relationships with agents, I like to see myself as an extension of their team. That is being open and honest in a very I guess you could say in a very careful and considered way, I probably not surprised either when you're having those conversations like they've met the family, they've been through the home whilst still being respectful, we're both picking up what we're putting, like we both on the same page in terms of the risk factor and mitigating that risk for your business over that potential period of time. That's right. But what I do then is say, look, let me put some stuff together for them. So they know what to do. And and I might do a to do list on each room and I might say go purchase a new doona. This is where you can go. And give them things so that they can make the best out of theirs. And if they trash their own stuff that's all well and good, but not trashing my stuff. So I'm still going to create a service. I'm still going to keep that relationship with the agent and they're still going to appreciate the fact that I have I have improved. The product, but I've done it in a way that's going to also be okay for my business. And I'm not going to lose massive amount of money. Speaking of money, how do you approach the whole budgeting question in what people I find sometimes when it comes to property styling people like, yes, the real estate agent gets this and yes, the marketing and la will be this. I feel like Everything gets divvied out and then there's an expectation for property stylists to come in and do what essentially double, can double the difference or, the commissions for the agents and all the different things. It's a massive benefit that property styling does, but homeowners tend to go say, you said, what, how much Is that your experience as well? Because when I've talked to people, they seem to be surprised that you're not just part of the advice. The real estate agent is like supplying and that you are actually a totally separate service, even though you do work closely with them and that they need to pay accordingly. How do you find that relationship with clients and their expectations? I guess I'm lucky in so far as I've got pretty good relationships with my agents and certainly a lot in the CBD are investment property. So a lot of the time, I'm not even meeting the actual owners being all done through the agency. And this particular agency, like I said, are You know, seven years now and they are the sort of agent that is really proactive and and they lay it out like they're just really professional about the way that they approach it all. From that point of view, they're giving them expectations upfront, saying, this is what we need to do. And these are the rough costs that you'll need to quote. So by the time you are involved, it's not a shock. Correct. Yeah. And so that can work really well. And like I said I really like to see myself as a extension of. their team, like I that's how I like to work. So getting pretty close relationships with agents so that we're all working together and it's works really well that way, you're very lucky to have had that right from the first sort of instance of doing any property staging to have a relationship and a referral. Do you have any advice for any designers who are starting out, who maybe are trying to get in front of real estate agents are trying to build a relationship with real estate agents because you hear a lot of, I've gone out, I've dropped my card around at all the local ones. Like what's an actual really good way to address that? I think probably Look, it is difficult because there are a lot of styling companies and there's a lot of selling companies to come and go as well. And a lot that closed down after last spring, cause it was there was like we had no spring markets. Yeah. A lot of flow on from COVID really wasn't it? And and also interest rates, everyone's just a bit gun shy to do anything last year. Yeah, there's a lot of styling companies who did not make it unfortunately. But. There are a lot of agents who already have affiliations with people. And I guess the thing is as well, the way that I look at it is you may need to either know someone already, like maybe you bought and sold through someone. So contacting those kinds of people. And I guess the other thing is think of yourself as. an extension of their own branding. So maybe it's coming through from that point of view, you might even they may not use a stylist very often. So you might be hunting on there. You might be going on realestate. com and just bringing up areas and looking at the properties that they are selling and are they being styled or are they not? Is there an opportunity for you to get run and say, Hey, I noticed you don't use styling very often, but this is what I could do for you. That might be a way to approach it. Because it can be tough. And that, yeah, I think it's about trying to show that you could be an extension of their own branding. It's interesting you say that because all I can think of is, whether or not there's opportunity to white label your flyers, be more when I say white label, that's always just like putting someone else's branding over your services. So having, if we think of Barry plant, just random real estate agent that I pulled up and having it all in white, Navy and red. And even though it is your. Product you could almost white label a Barry plant flyer to be like, I'd be prepared to do this for you, hand it out. You can like obviously attach it to all of your paperwork at any time. And it really looks like it's something, and it benefits you as well. Cause initially you're leveraging the trust that their agency has too. Those little things that you could probably meet with people and say, would you like a version in your branding? Do you want a version that just. Takes your energy out of it. So you don't have to do much, but it's just getting in front of them. I think like we, we it's a busy job. It's, at certain times of the year, it's like really crazy. And there's a lot of conversations that don't go anywhere. And I sometimes see that happening from a networking. Perspective from both parties. Like it takes both parties to be really proactive, to build a successful relationship. So if you've gone and had a coffee and you've dropped off some, something, it's a morning tea and you've had a little chat and you just were shy and just left it with the receptionist and didn't really talk much. You're probably not going to see a really strong outcome from that form of networking, but going in. Bringing something along, setting an appointment with someone who can make a change to their current situation or can have those conversations. I think we forget. Because we're so some designers and stylists and so on can get so nervous about that whole meet and greet and networking and dropping in and stuff that they tend to open the door, throw business cards at the reception and run away. Like it's nothing's going to happen. It has to be like an actual, this is what I can do for you. And they like you will experience all the time. Really want you to take so much. Effort away from them and doubles their commission half the time. Like it's a big benefit to them. It's not in any way like a problem. That niching down in so far as understanding the area that you want to service and what you can do, what can you provide? And there's all these different within the property styling world. There's, your high end, your mid market and your cheap and cheerful. And, it's also a place for everyone. There is absolutely, and really honing in on that. And I think it's like the design world niching down is probably really important because you can't be everything for everybody. I've done that. Costs a lot of money and what you're holding your warehouse too. I imagine when you've got bright and bald and you've got Dark and moody, and you've got every which way, style. Yeah. And you're just looking at going, I would, I hate this piece. Why did I even buy it? So I think niching down and like I said, understanding your market and then conveying that to the real estate agencies and saying, Like completely knowing it in so far as who your demographics are, what sort of architecture is around those areas, what sort of services would they really need to like, there's I've got a friend who is in the around the Essendon area and she basically so it's local styling stylist company. I'll give a little shout out to Mandy because she's amazing. But she has a lot of people that are downsizing, those big, beautiful S phones. So she would she has specifically decided that to make that work for her, because the amount of time that's involved in something like that means that she might have to do. Some very long consultations and very big to do list. She might need to for instance take away some of the, their furniture and maybe put them back to a warehouse or a style, a storage facility and then bring in. So the, the timeline between meeting them and actually in getting them ready for sale could be quite long. So it's about, the real estate agent can't do that. Necessarily. So it's about understanding your market and then making it that it will actually be profitable for you because offering these services that don't that you haven't priced properly is not going to work. Doesn't help anyone. Exactly. So if you can, niche down and find out what it is that's people's pain points and real estate agents pain points, the things that they're finding frustration. That might be a really good way to do it. High end services, people like Arch, people like Trez, they're offering like photo shoots. The, arch do like foliage, real foliage and flowers and they'll go and change them and things like that. Once again, it's really niching down, understanding your market. And for me, yes, I do suburbs, but yeah, I've got the CBD and I need some stock that might be a little bit more unusual for my warehouse and stuff like that type of properties. It's really kind to understand how you can. Fix people's pain points from that point of view, I think, and that might give you the in to an agency because they can really see that and understand that, you know what, you are doing something that is really going to help me that maybe not someone else has offered. Yeah, certainly presenting it from the perspective of a real estate agent's frustrations would see you connect to them emotionally much quicker than just showing them the, another photo of another living room, think about what they do all day long. They just see stuff and some stuff's nice, some stuff's not, maybe they're not even that interested. They're more looking at square footage and location and like people have different priorities. You mentioned nation, which. Is always a good idea. But what are your thoughts around niching from a transport perspective in terms of, having a key set of suburbs or a singular Shire or what's your advice there? Because I do see people who are like, I just want to take any job that comes in on website inquiry, but then, it's a lot to be. Traveling with stock or to be, I need to pop in for something, but it's two and a half hours towards the border. What would you say then as an experienced stylist is the kind of best way to approach that? I think really, if you're going to You need to pick your area. You just do it. It doesn't make any sense because removal is costs are high, basically just the whole, if you have your own truck or something, it's just the time, time is wages. Time is fuel. Like time is another time that you could be doing something else. I'm going for a quote or doing a pack up or whatever. So if you're going so far that I just don't think it makes sense. And you got to double it to come back. So you're actually some of the time taking up a half a working day in transport. Yeah. And this is why like for instance, my warehouse is in Heidelberg West. So I positioned my warehouse so that I can sort of service like that Heidelberg, Ivanhoe, Eltham type thing I can do sort of Norsket and Thornbury, but I'm not that far away from the city, depending on traffic as well, obviously. that it's not that far for me to get into the CBD as well. So it's a good spot, isn't it? Because then you're like, Oh, look, I could do Doncaster temple. So at a stretch I can come over here. I think that's a really smart spot for yeah. Holding all this stuff and having a base. Yeah. Yeah. Too far away. It's just not going to work. And yeah, definitely not. And parking's quite fine in Heidelberg West. You'll be good. Exactly. In terms of running a business and stress levels and so on. I imagine there are peak times like Spring Market, which I mentioned before, where, you know, everything, every last picture, painting, lamp, piece of rug is out. And logistically I can only imagine, but that, that it's quite stressful. Do you have a team with you? How have you managed year after year to show up to have you gotten better and better through experience at preparing for that peak period? Yeah. And look I'm going to say this is probably a little bit controversial, but I actually I do a lot of the styling on my own. I don't have, I have my removeless team and I do. in from time to time, but I have, for seven years, I've been doing most of it on my own better or worse. I don't know whether I'd recommend that to many people because you're wearing so many hats and your heads in so many places. And, but because I can do what I do it for stress levels through spring is don't talk to me. Yeah. Yeah. No, nothing happens at home. I'm rolling, there's, I can put in. Easily 11 hour days, because you're out doing a style and then you're back at the warehouse, you're trying to prepare for other things, you're coming home, you're doing quotes, you're doing admin, you're doing invoicing. It's a little nuts and I don't know whether it's the best business model, if I'm being really honest. Is it a strategic decision? Decision though, or has it been born out of, the time and effort you'd have to put into someone else? The lack of control or I have been able to do it so I just will keep doing it. Or what do you think? All of those things. Yeah. Really it's all of those things and and I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I should taking on stuff is a massive decision. And this is definitely not your coaching call. So it's not about how do we get you there? But it is, I think sometimes like we'd have to start now if you want to be ready for spring. And then what if I train them up and then they leave, they go do their own thing. And then I've got no one, I get used to it. And then I can't have it. I think there's just so much. underlying fear and nerves from the feedback that I have heard from those who have done it in this particular branch of interiors is like it's a game changer in terms of just being able to rely on someone else just to do pick up a quick piece of foliage or pick up a quick thingy and meet me here or do this or I was supposed to be at a quote and it turns out I have to be over here those little things are nice. So it's always something to think about on the horizon, but Added all the time, but yeah, you get assistance in from time to time. So especially if I'm doing large homes, if I'm doing multiple properties on one day or it could be that, one's doing a pack up, one's doing an install in peak time. So I do get people in, but it's, it is more just a casual situation. So probably 90 percent of the time I'm doing it all on my own, thanks. And that's probably good. I guess the other thing is, I'm the sort of person that if I was to put someone on, I would really want to keep them. I want to nurture them. I want to teach them. And it feels really Bad if I'm putting someone on just for snippets of time and then going up I haven't got anything for the next few weeks for you because I can manage myself. So I find that I guess it's a hard balance, isn't it? Cause what you would effectively have to do is call it swings and roundabout and use it when it's busy and in the downtime divert some admins, like you need someone who's willing to be such an all rounder. It's it's not going to be fun all the time. There's going to be stuff where. You're getting paid so you're just going to have to do whatever I was going to do. You send invoices and, it's definitely a challenging thing. And I don't think you're the first or last in this staging and styling zone that I've heard of that's when do you make the call? It's always on top of a cloud on top of your head, thinking like, Oh, it's a possibility. And maybe, and then you get through it and you're like, I'll think about it again next year. I've probably shaved years off my life by not having people with me, on a regular basis because, lack of sleep, stress level, But that can be said of having staff as well. I do love to play a bit of devil's advocate and, I don't think just, Growth doesn't always mean just take on staff. And I've always been really firm about this. Like you could be an excellent at your job and terrible when you're promoted to leadership in that same role, like that same company, because you're actually not a manager. You're not a leader, you're a worker and everyone needs work. We need great work. It's about understanding that. And sometimes I think. You think, Oh, I need to get stuff. I need to get in a VA. I need to do this and that. And then you're really stressed about what's happening at their house. So your response, like we saw that in COVID, you feel so responsible for their livelihoods and all of a sudden something out of your head, you have to let them go, something happened. So it's way bigger question than just don't you wish someone else will come with you and chat to you about what the TV is. Yeah, exactly. That seems exactly right. Is there any piece of technology or tool in the industry or that you use for your business that you just couldn't live without? There's a couple really. One is your phone. Like your phone is just like a little office in your pocket. Yeah. Through from photos, through social media, emails, all that sort of stuff. The other thing is, okay, so I'm going to say some sort of accounting package because you just need it. The other one that I would say that I started, and I, it's a I'm not utilizing properly, but A software package that would help you with, so I'll use Dubstado and that will be for like quoting it'll be scheduling you can do emails through there. There's, I use it in a very basic way and I know that there is so much more that I can do and I just need to get some time and and really, so this is the other thing when you're doing everything yourself, you don't have time to look into these things and get everything working really smoothly. But. That is fantastic because it's trying to hold all of it in your head. It's got your calendars, when things went in, when someone has seen the quote that clicked on it. When someone has accepted it, all these different things, because especially in my circumstance or someone who's larger or someone who's working on their own, it's just, you can't know everything at every single moment, have your hand on everything. The other thing is I use Cat a lot. And the reason I do, and I don't know if many stylists do, I don't think they do, is because I do so many CBD properties I have to nail exactly what I'm bringing. Because if you think about it this way, I'm, I could be parking I try to park no more than one block away from where I live. My carrying all of that. Look at my face. It, you can't see it in the podcast, obviously, but I was like, no, thanks. Correct. So I can't be taking extra stuff that I don't need generally down the stairs to bring it back again, back to the car when you were like, Oh no, it didn't look right. Yeah, that's right. So I have to nail what I'm taking. It can't just, I know a lot of stylists will go and say, Oh no, we haven't got enough or, Oh, it's too big. Let's swap it out. I can't do that. Because we have lift bookings. I may not be booking again, depending on the building itself. The removalist, they may not, they may have another job after me. So half a truck full of someone else's stuff, they don't always come. Yeah, that's right. But it's also, let's just say I say, Oh God, it didn't work. Let's swap that out. Can you go back to the warehouse? Or let's just say something's forgotten. That's all time. That's the removalist is going to charge me for that. That's my profit. So I really have to nail it. I need to get it right. And if I'm taking a couple of extra things, it needs to be really strategically done. So I'm using CAD all the time to make sure that in this property, this furniture and this rug and, number 1, it's going to be the right for that particular property, whether it's a suburban house or whether it's an apartment in the city, it needs to make sure that I'm not Wasting my money and wasting my time by swapping pieces out. So I use cat. overly familiar with CAD myself, but are you able to upload specific things that you have in your inventory? So therefore it's quick to like place and check and move around, or are you actually just doing it, it's a two by three point five and you just put it in quickly and yeah. Quickly, I have, you get quick though, after using it a lot. So I find, yeah, if you're doing the same types of things, graduate e design. So if I'm going in and using my software and doing it from an e design perspective, it doesn't take long at all to put everything in from scratch. And circles, like it's really. Sometimes people will say, Oh, can you, have you got, can you show me this? I'm like, if I show you it, you may not even, it's just going to look like it's not client facing. Actually. That one's just for me and my notes. Exactly. But yeah I need to make sure that I'm not wasting my time and my margin by making stupid errors. Bye. Yeah. Going, Oh, that'll do. I'm sure that I'll have to come back on Thursday, even though your photographer is going to be here in the morning, because I just forgot three things and I'll bring them over, which is a nightmare. Yeah. And you mentioned as well, like Dub Sutter, I just, I feel like I want to comment around the I like to say in the framework as well, we use notion and I always talk about that first viable working version of, and I believe in that for all sorts of things. And I think sometimes we can get busy. I don't believe in carrying all that guilt about what something could be. Yes, it has all this functionality, but I'm actually, I'm like pretty type A, but I'm not that type A that I need to, if it is getting the job done and it's getting it done in a really professional way and I'm aware of what I'm using it, even though it has capacity to do other things, if I don't I haven't missed them yet. And I have it on my list to have a bit of a play. I just try not to keep that guilt of there's always something we could be doing for our business to expand or to learn. And I feel like so many of us carry that. It's like mom guilt stuff. Isn't it? Like we carry it around being like, Oh no I know Notion could do this and I'm only using it for that. It's yeah, but you are using it for that, which like already props to you for working that out and it's getting the job done. And if, and when you get time, maybe you will, maybe you won't, but for right now, yeah. Enjoy. Yeah. That's right. No, it's already made a big impact which is positive and yeah, I should just take that. Yeah. I love. Why did you fund that? That's the same of every working, like onboarding process or however you do it. I created one in notion that is on my website. Like it's an onboarding thing and it does like budget tracking and trade invoice tracking, and it's everything for your client. But it's not everything it could be. It's just everything that I needed when I worked as an e designer so that I can get the shopping list and click on one button, it exports it all into Excel. That to me was a dream. It's what I always wanted. It didn't exist. Like when I was working as an e designer, I was like, Oh, if only it was just a one click solution, but it never is. It never is. And finally, we're there and we're probably there because of advancements in things like AI and Zapier and connectivity and automations and so on, but I couldn't be more thrilled. And I don't need to take it to a place where I know it can do even more and even more. I'm like, nah, I'm pretty happy as long as it builds my shopping list and I've got everything in when I'm on site. If the client wants to look at anything, I can get in there. I think it's almost like you should design a dream software. What do you need instead of trying to amend your business into what it's offering sometimes, because it can be offering things that are not reflective of your exact service. So it's like shopping around a bit. Yeah, you don't feel overwhelmed like that because there's nothing worse than just being like, Oh, this is whole section that I never really access because I'm a bit afraid of what it's going to do or the analytics, the amount of apps that people like, Oh, yeah, it's got analytics. I'm like, Oh, how do you track them, read them out and touch that button? Yeah, if I touch buttons, I generally blow them up. Terms of the future of property styling, you mentioned like losing quite a few people in the industry post COVID or last year specifically. How do you see it all evolving? Have you got any predictions for property styling in the next few years or do you see any trends or are we going in any direction that you can give us a hot scoop on? I think you will find that the expectations both of agents and owners has just lifted, from a business where people didn't see the value and you could put anything in and people go, Oh, wow, that's amazing. I think. Everyone just is going to be leveling up as far as in terms of the actual stock and things to like fantastic furniture can't cut it. You have to be having more trade stuff or more high end. Yeah, that's what I think because expectations are just so high. Going up and up and up. And then we'll be the whole niching down, really understanding your market. It might be more about what kind of services you can provide as an offshoot maybe. And. There's a lot of people that on there when it's not as busy, they might offer more design services and stuff like that. People picking those sorts of things up. I know myself that I'm doing a little bit more design, which is actually so much fun and really happy to get back into. So for instance, I just did a style of a guy who sold an and bought his forever apartment. I'm helping him and it's nice. It's such a good synergy, isn't it? When you're taking your clients from selling to. The next stage, which, cause obviously they're going to have you've got both ends. We don't get repeat clients a lot. If you've done your job, right? Like you don't tend to design for somebody and then they come back three weeks later and go, don't really love the tile. Can we go again? So it's that relationship building, I think is going to be interesting to see and whether whether styling companies have that capacity or whether they're just going to really just focus on this is what we do, it, it could be either way maybe, but I think everyone is going to have to level up, that's come from social media, like being much more accessible to see high end styling and stylists. Like property staging and all that real estate photography and stuff. We used to only see it street facing when you walk down and saw a real estate agent shop front. Now that we have so much fingertip access to realestate. com domain and everyone's obsessed with I don't know about everyone, but I'll put my hand up. It's obsessed with peeking in people's houses and taking a little tour around. But we've always been, it was just sticky neighbors, right? Yeah, that's right. But now it's like everyone, and no one can tell that you are looking, so you're like, yeah, I'm getting in there. don't have to leave your name with the real estate agent at the door. Yeah. Yeah, I hundred percent agree. But yeah, I think everyone's gonna have to level up on what they how do you personally find social media? I speak to lots of people'cause you're out on site, you're out at the property a lot. Do you find that an eye roll task when you get home at the end of a 11 hour day, for example, and think I need to make a reel about that, or I need to share the way I made the bed? Do you find it a pressure, or do you find it a pleasure? Do you really like being home? So if you look at my social media, you can see that I'm not doing it a lot. And and I guess there's two reasons for that. One is that I've got really good relationships with agents. So a lot of my work is coming in through that and I've got repeat clients, like I think I've got a. The lead generation side of social media is not as important to the business. But I know that if I wanted to grow and and, have more offerings, I know social media is key. It's really important, but I guess that to this point it's not been my thing. Something I've had to rely on, and, but I know that it will probably be my future does, if that sounds right, I love that's what this entire podcast is designing your, design your own way and success looks different. And if you. Assessed your successfulness of your business. And right now your priority isn't on lead generation because you're, you are only one person. So at some point your time is going to run out and you are going to have to start referring off to other people that having overflow, thinking about staffing, all that sort of stuff. See, it's a great answer because it does say, yeah, I've actually thought about it. It's not because I'm nervous about social media or I don't want to show up or I'm time poor, it's more of a case of you're not creating feast and famine because you're not getting through your jobs and then finding you've got nothing. You're actually finding the pipeline of how you get your clients looks a little bit different to Instagram. And that's okay. For some businesses, that's going to be exactly how it's done and how, that networking with the agents and things is going to be more return on investment for your time than maybe creating. A montage to music. Yes, yes, true. Now, I want to know how you handle, I'm doing air quotes here, competition in the property styling industry, because there's a lot of stylists out there in Melbourne Metro area and beyond. How has that experience over the years that you've been, people come in, come out, there have been people starting up right next door, basically, and then what have you found about that sort of area and the industry? Yeah there's a lot out there. I, there is one agent that I did a lot of work for and there was, at a time when someone else had she, the client wanted two quotes. So she, they found their own person and they came in and it was like a thousand dollars less. And and I know my costs, like I know how much my removals are going to charge. I know how many hours it should be. I know I know what my warehouse is. I know how much my insurance is. I know all these different things. Yeah. And this was in South Bank as well. So I know also that with some of these properties, you have to go up car park ramps to get to the next level. You can't go through the foyers, for example. And I knew this particular building and it was quite a walk to get up. That's all time. It's all time. And energy, carrying stuff, you're not just going for a walk. That's right. Anyway, the styling went in and, it was quite ordinary. It really was not amazing, but I think the agent summarized it when she said it's quite satisfactory. And I just had to laugh at that. Quite satisfactory. Okay. And anyway, she said to me, look because of some of the price points of the properties, can you just do really cheap styling? And I've said to her, I made a conscious decision to say no, because number one, I'd have to buy a whole heap of cheap stuff and I'd have to hold that in my warehouse. So I might have to change your, like brand values and your marketing and you'd be going after under market and then you'd be no better than someone who's. Yeah. I'm not acting. I'm not acting. She wanted actually both. She wanted to have really cheap stuff and then best stuff. But also they don't, yeah, I love that you held the line there and understood. Actually, I set up my business model to represent me in a way that I feel really aligned with and happy with. And so I'm not, Prepared to also be my evil twin sister. fe and she comes in with all the cheap stuff and you don't wanna be doing that. Yeah. So I made a decision and said, look if you need to do that for your owners, and this is the price point. Then I understand that. And this is business, right? I understand that if that is the right decision for your business and your clients, but if you have other properties and you want to. To align, to get better properties, where I am. Yeah. And which is so good. I often think that sometimes what's happened is purely when people come newly into the industry, they don't like, you just mentioned a whole bunch of things that I try to teach inside of the framework on how to actually set your pricing in the beginning, and that's how to actually understand. It's not just look around at what everyone's doing and smack yourself in the middle somewhere and call it appropriate for your household, because you might have one child in private school, one who's headed to the Olympics for a winter sport, which is expensive. And you might actually have a reason that you need to make a different amount of money to what I need to make. And, or I might be just trying to replace my previous 10 hour a week wedding coordinated job, in which case. The profit that I need is really not that much compared to running a full time business. And so everyone's going to have their different priorities. And what I think you see in the staging industry is people come in and they want to land jobs quickly and they want to get clients. They think the only way to do that is to be like, okay, What's a roundabout cost for you? Do they do the research? They find out what the people they admire, which is generally experienced property stylists who are in there doing the sorts of things that you or young Conrad are doing. And they find out those costs and then they go, cool. Why? Like a thousand dollars. Pretty sus to me, because that just sounds like wipe off 1, 000 clean number and come in. And I think that, anyone listening, who's doing that really have a think about the integrity of the industry as a whole and where you would like, how you'd like to be treated and where you'd like to be seven years in, because I think you'll find that it does, it's not sustainable because of all those outlying costs. So then you find you're not in a position to level up. Your like types of furniture. So if you're making the right amount of profit margin, you can all of the sudden go, Oh, it's time to go off and spend 60 grand at GlobeWest this season. Cause I think that I can do that based on what I've planned for. And I think there's a lot of naivety. Yes. And not planning, not thinking long. Game not playing the long game for business and not thinking about it as like where I'd like to be, how I'd like to be thought of and what I'd like to be doing in 10 years. It's more. This is what I want to get in the next 10 weeks, 10 months, and it becomes a bit of a scramble. I feel it's just. Yeah. See it a few times before, and we'll see it a few times again, but I know a lot of designers starting out do listen to this podcast. I think these conversations can be really helpful to be like, you're not doing anything wrong and you're not doing anything that we didn't do, but learn from the people who've already been there and in reflection and hindsight, this is why I wouldn't do it again. Or this is why I think now. It wasn't really the greatest model for setting my pricing because it did not factor in all the things that I really should have thought about. It was just a random number. See how we go. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. And you do, you need to be thinking about your own costs. You really do because, and because things can go wrong on styling day that's nothing to do with you as well. And they eat your whole margin, correct. That's exactly right. Something can get broken. There's so many things, I've been in where carpet should have been installed on a Friday. We get there on the Monday morning and open the door and the guys are still there doing the carpet. I've had it. Lifts are broken and where there's nothing for it. We just have to hike it all up onto the fourth floor. Because my face again, there's two options, isn't there? There's one that I, Take all the stock back to the factory, unpack it, and then another time come back. That's true. The removalist or we hike it up, which is extra costs on the day because of the extra time and and I must say that one of the removalists was an older guy who smoked and I was mentally thinking, how close is the hospital? Because he may have a heart attack. So you're taking that on as well. That's not in my contract and that's really going to slow me down. So if wheeze your way up and down these flights of stairs, that'd be great. Okay. I said, you can only go up one flight. I will take it up the next three. So like I was really worried about his health, but it was like that trade off, it wasn't anybody's fault. It was just the lift broke. How can you predict that? And there was no building manager on site. It had been reported that there was no understanding as to when it was going to be fixed. So it was going to cost me one way or another. There's my margins, just completely gone. And if you've taken that thousand to meet it, then you're like, okay, now it's just, we're going into negative territory and I've made nothing. And I've paid for you to have your house styled, which really, I do not advise that as a business model. That's not a good idea. Now we've talked about all the disasters that can go on, but what do you love about property styling and staging? I'm going to finish up with this one, but I'd really love to hear that. Why would I have a career in this? Cause I'm not sold. Okay. Yeah. I can so tell you so many horror stories, but okay. So there's the things where you have made such a difference to a property and someone's life because of what they've been able to sell it for. There are so many stories where people are just so thankful and agents as well, because they know that you've taken a property that was potentially even unsellable and. Turn that around. There, that and the different, the flow and effect, what that could make, it could be a marriage separation. Oh, we're talking money here as well. That's like flat out. The measurement and metric is X amount of money. And this one, same townhouse down the road, unstyled, sold for this. And you can get that real satisfactory comparison where you can see what you've done made a difference. Absolutely. And what that impact is for that person, that owner and how that's going to change their life in a positive way. And and even look, I've had it where I've done some partial styles and they've just been so beautiful and they've made lunch for me and sat down and, and all these beautiful connections that you can make. And. Even like when people, you style their house and people ask you to help them with their new home, you come back, can you help me create my new home? Those sorts of things are really such a privilege. Really, those sorts of things just make you, when. When the auction result comes in, you know that it's just smashed what they hope to get. It's that kind of feeling. It's a real high. So they're the good things. And I must say shopping, that's really good. Yeah, that sounds really honest. Yeah. Like I don't need all those cushions for my home, but I can buy them for my work. That's an amazing answer. I also like to think, I really the show Love but Elisa, and I think it must be really cool to do quick turnarounds when it comes to before and afters and show people how the light in which their property can look in, in a way that they could never, they've lived there for 30 years or whatever. They can't envisage anything different than their original layout and original velvet, whatever it is. Being able for them to go out in the morning to get brunch and go and do something and come home in the afternoon and actually see the entire house transformed as someone who's a bit of a junkie for before and after. I think I would really love that part that I did that in a day. Yeah, I know. And then they say, Oh my goodness, why don't we do this before? Why don't we catch you in before? We could have lived this way. Yeah. Okay. I'm a little bit coming around, but I'm not carrying anything but the cushions. Oh yeah, the shopping is amazing. You sold me on parts of it. I'll go. I'm partially sold, but I'll continue just supporting property styles as they enter the industry. And maybe maybe in time, never know. I haven't got all three kids at school yet. So maybe I will try to get the the dream 10 to two. I don't know. Beautiful. Thank you for your time today, at least that it's been so nice to hear about your business. I'm going to link in the show notes. To how people can find you, connect with you on Instagram, check out your website, come and say hello. And I hope that I will get to speak to you again soon. So much. It's been really fun. Too much fun. All right. Talk to you later. Thank you. Bye for now. That was so great. Alisa was so forthcoming with just the information. I feel like back when I started and even now, because I am such a curious person and I just want to know everything about everybody's business. It's just. Makes me so happy that these sorts of conversations are coming to you every single week, because they are the exact sort of things that I would have absorbed like a sponge in my first year, second year, third year. God, I still listened to lots of other people's design podcasts all the time, because every business is so unique and everybody's business path is so different and everybody's obviously designed journey. Property styling has not been the way that I've gone. Easy design is not something other people offer full service design. Or FFNE is something that drives some people crazy, or they don't want to be involved in structural advice or floor plans. And other people love that side of interior design. Some people were just like, give me all the stylist decorating or like photo shoots. I just love that there's so much in it for all of us. Say thank you for joining me today. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.