Partnerships, planning and practical business with Heather of Oak & Orange

check out Heather's recommended Business Book "Time Magic" here https://www.booktopia.com.au/time-magic-melissa-ambrosini/book/

Visit Heather & Sarah's work on Insta https://www.instagram.com/oakandorange

connect with Heather anytime, she was an absolute delight to interview (and edit) this is legit our entire conversation raw and ready. what a gem she is to share and tell it like it is. 

Thanks for listening to this episode of "Designing Success: From Study to Studio"! Connect with me on social media for more business tips, and a real look behind the scenes of my own practicing design business.

Grab more insights and updates:

Follow me on Instagram: https://instagram.com/oleander_and_finch
Like Oleander & Finch on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/oleanderandfinch

For more FREE resources, templates, guides and information, visit the Designer Resource Hub on my website ; https://oleanderandfinch.com/

Ready to take your interior design business to the next level? Check out my online course, "The Framework," designed to provide you with everything they don’t teach you in design school and to give you high touch mentorship essential to having a successful new business in the industry. Check it out now and start designing YOUR own success
(waitlist now open) https://oleanderandfinch.com/first-year-framework/

Remember to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Your feedback helps me continue providing valuable content to aspiring interior designers. Stay tuned for more episodes filled with actionable insights and inspiring conversations.

Thank you for yo...

Transcript

0:11

Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success.

rhiannon: 0:35

Hey Heather, how are you going? Good. How are you? Good. I'm so excited to chat to you today. I've been a follower of Oak and Orange for a really long time. I feel like I

heather: 0:46

think likewise, actually, followed you for quite a

rhiannon: 0:49

while. Oh, I I feel like when I first started, you go on a bit of a rampage on your Instagram when you start your Instagram of all the things that you follow. And then over time you pluck them away because I was just a bit overexcited at the beginning. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm pleased to announce you absolutely made the cut. I love following your page and it's really nice seeing all the different dream homes come to life and getting a bit of background which we will go into as we go through our questions today, but yeah, I really enjoy it. So if you don't follow already, jump into the show notes and go and have a look, cause it's a beautiful feed and it's always got inspiring content. I really love it. Great. Thank you. Beautiful. I'm going to take you all the way back. You said it's been a while, so we're going to go back and hit on, what sparked your passion for interior design and deciding to pursue it as a career, because that's a big goal.

heather: 1:38

Yeah. It's funny, because it was something that, That interested me in childhood. So I would love, watching your typical shows, which back in my childhood were like changing rooms and better homes and gardens and those like Burke's backyard here. Yeah. Like it was pre block now I'm showing my age, but. I just loved it. And even when I was at high school, I thought about going into it at the time. Again, I'm showing my age here, but it was called the UAI and the UAI I needed to do interior design at uni was too high. I knew I wouldn't get it. And I didn't, so my other passion was travel. And so I ended up studying a business degree, majoring in tourism at uni. So completely different to interior design, but I've always loved it. And, it just so happened that I married a builder. So I guess it just did a full circle. I went and worked after studying. I went and worked in the tourism industry. Then I worked in communications and marketing for a charity. Then I left to have children and right around that time my husband, Aaron started a business with another builder and his wife, Sarah, who is now my business partner. So yeah and Sarah's got a really similar story to me. She loved it and was passionate about it when she was a teenager. And we probably met when we were about 20. That was before we knew each other, but being married to builders, they're very driven. So when they were starting their company, they were just going for it. And they also did to start out, we just did a lot of our own builds because you got to. You can do it and you're good at it and we loved it. So we would put our hands up and go, yeah, we'll design the houses. And so that's where it really came about. It was a passion loved it, but then the opportunity just presented itself and we ran with it.

rhiannon: 3:33

The transferable skills that you've mentioned there are so good. Like I come from travel as well, a travel background. Yeah, I worked for 15 years with STA travel and then and also marketing and comms that you mentioned, like all of that is like a golden angle for running a business. Cause you've really have learnt the skill, the business skill, because that's the stuff they do not teach. You can get taught a little bit about fundamental elements of design and different things. And you can do a lot of research and you can read a lot of things, but. All of that won't hold up a successful business. As you say, things that the boys would have been experiencing as well, like starting their business. At least you get a bit of a sneak peek. Okay. It's really stressful. Okay. There is going to be a little bit of time before paid clients are rolling in just because we build it like that. You can plan with a bit of. Yeah,

heather: 4:21

yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so that's really an interesting thing. So in from the time that the guys started the business to gosh, I'm trying to think how long that would have been maybe 4 or 5 years after that. We've done a lot of new builds and what we used to do was. We would build a new house. We would design it and Sarah and her husband, Jaden, they would do the same thing. We'd live in it for a year or two, and then we just go again and do it again. And it was an ongoing joke. Like, when are you ever going to settle down? Like we'd laugh because our kids have lived in so many different homes, but I think that gave us really unique insight because. To be able to live with the design you created and live with, the consequences of that design and how does that play out in reality and day to day living. And so that's what spurred us then to start Open Orange to, share that journey with people where, yes, we're on a social media platform and a very visual one like Instagram and Pinterest, and we have a blog and that, but, We're really passionate about showing people how to create or design a home that puts livability before the looks. So even though you see a lot of our pictures and they look really beautiful, a lot of thought has gone into the practical side and the practical elements of it as well.

rhiannon: 5:36

Absolutely. Every time I hear people talk about, form over function or vice versa, I always just picture that little girl in the taco ad like, why can't we have both? There's no reason you should be making a decision. If you kids, have kids will travel, kids slot into your life. You don't stop your life because of them. And I truly believe that for interiors as well. There's workarounds, there's compromises to be made. So there's nothing stopping you from just saying Okay. Maybe we won't go down the natural stone until late primary school, but for now we could do this look and we could get us. Yeah. Yeah. So there's just lots of ways that you can incorporate that. And having the knowledge is really good, but anyone, yeah, I just feel sometimes it Feels more black and white than it needs to be because there's always a gray area and there's always a decision to be made. So as long as you're just willing to look at the pros and cons of both options, make the decision and make it what's right for your family. Like everything yeah. Yeah, definitely. What were those early conversations like? I always wish I could be I guess, cause I run a solo design company and I've never really been in a partnership and not a quad ship early decisions, like where their nerves around friendships, breaking and mixing business and pleasure did you feel, or did you, were you just risk takers and like caution to the wind? Go for it.

heather: 6:58

No, definitely not risk takers. So what was decided to other than us designing our personal properties? The guys decided when they were starting the business that Sarah and I would stay out of it, that we wouldn't get involved in their building company. And we haven't. We've never been involved. When I'm doing a project, I'm treated as if I am a client. And I probably go out of my way. I don't want to be the painful owner's wife. So I go out of my way to be very nice and try not to be difficult. And, all of those sorts of things. And yeah, no, there was no, just go for it. It was. And I think we've maintained a really good friendship. Like we go on holidays together. We, our kids sleep over at each other's houses. We like, we're still really good friends after all these years. We have a very similar, worldview and what's important to us is very aligned, which is why the guys went into business in the first place. And that has been easy to manage because they had that boundary and we've just always stuck to it. And then when I I started open orange on my own is just a bit of a fun thing. And then a couple of years after that, I said, oh, let's do something more with it. And I took it to Sarah because again, we were already really well aligned in what we were doing and what we loved doing. And she was like, yeah, let's do it. Let's

rhiannon: 8:24

already bouncing a few ideas as yeah, I've got a project. What tile do you like this or that? And you appreciate their opinion. So you're like, you should just get on here. Let's just

heather: 8:35

do this. Yeah. And it's, it. Yeah, it happens all the time, so I don't know I don't even know if I can pinpoint what has made that work or what's made that successful and it just, it cracks, it just, yeah.

rhiannon: 8:48

Yeah, in your early days when you guys were starting, what sort of strategies did you put in place, or how did you find, Going about getting those initial clients. Were you already overflowing with client inquiry or as a partnership, you came together and then how did you, I just know so many people listening are like, where do we get the clients from? What is the, like, how do we get from where we are now to where

heather: 9:11

you are? So this is really interesting. And a lot of people don't know this about us. We don't actually take on collateral work, so we've taken on one. But most of the time we don't take them on. We are solely focused on content creation and helping people do it for themselves. But in saying that, it naturally came about from for us. So we still get lots of inquiries. And I think how that came about for us was. Growing out social platforms and creating content that was engaging, that was helpful and I guess ultimately social proof. When you can, when we've got the pretty photography, it proves to people out, they know what they're doing and I can trust them. So I think that's where for someone who is starting out and really wanting to get clients having that proof. Is really important and really necessary, but it's not always easy because if you're just starting out, you may not have jobs under your belt. We were fortunate that we, because we were able to finance and do our own projects, we didn't have to go and find those clients because we would, we were our own client. And so I think if I was to say to someone who's looking for clients and starting out based on our experience as a business, and particularly in social media, it would be and you mentioned earlier about, when you're studying interior design, they don't necessarily show you the business, but I would actually say, start with a 1 page business plan, like hone in on who's your target market. Get really specific on who is that person? What do they look like? And that may be a little bit determined by where you live and where you're prepared to travel. If you're looking for more of a, an online based. Doing mood boards for people, that sort of thing will, that will look different. And then once you've got that business plan and it doesn't have to be exhaustive to start with, but just enough to really direct you, make sure you're talking to identify who's your ideal client and start creating content that talks to those people. And be really specific. I think it can be easy to try and get everybody and miss out on people.

rhiannon: 11:38

And just overthink it. Like you mentioned that is exactly the approach. Like just simple sales. And when you confuse you lose and you're confusing yourself, right? So when you're trying to get a five year business plan with spreadsheets and marketing. Like you're not there yet. We can do that in a one day, like you can level up an upskill and do a business summit when you're in year three, when you need that, but when you're starting out, I think everybody, a lot of people, myself included are like X corporate. So we're coming from an expectation that the CEO is going to want to see that business plan, that quarterly plan, those KPIs, and we're still thinking like that and we're not thinking. In an entirely different way, because we're actually, we don't work for anyone else. We don't need to explain ourselves, but we do need to be able to articulate what we do for who and how it helps them. And that's it. It's so simple.

heather: 12:31

It is. It's really simple. And I think if I'm to be really honest, we did spend some time not doing that. And as a result, probably went around a little bit in circles and did different things. And Didn't have purpose. So we would just try different things and go, oh, let's just see how that works. And let's see how that works. And let's see how that works. And it's only probably been for us in the last 12 months that we've got a really clear direction and it blocks out the noise because social media is really competitive and it's so easy to look and go, oh, they're killing it. They're doing really well. Their stuff's amazing and blah, blah, blah. No, just stay on your path. If you've got that business plan, you've set some goals, you've got a direction, keep going with that. You'll still change things up a little bit as you go along, but just keep going on that path.

rhiannon: 13:23

It's such great advice. I remember the first at least year, maybe 18 months of my business. I thought my niche was e design. And I've

heather: 13:33

been following, I've been following you since then. Cause yeah, I remember. Yeah.

rhiannon: 13:37

But it's. That was saying, yeah so having an, a niche that is e design means that I'd be like, cool. One day I was doing a Scandinavian board. The next day I was doing modern organic. Then I was working with a lot of color and maximalism. And then I was doing coastal. Then I was doing Japandi and often with six projects on the go in the same week with six teams. Different, so I was making things so overcomplicated because from a sourcing perspective, from a knowledge of suppliers perspective, if you have a particular type of style or niche that you are known for, not only do you then just become known for that, so you attract all the right people who are like. Have to work with the oak and orange look. I have to have that kind of house. I didn't have that when I was spreading myself across everything. So I really did need to learn to be like, which of these I am capable. No one is saying you're not capable of working in any kind of style. And I hear this a lot from new designers as well, being like my job is actually not to project my own tastes onto others and to facilitate whatever inquiry comes in. And I, said what I said, but that feels like a new,

heather: 14:50

Yeah, I do agree with you because I have been approached and asked to do certain styles. And I, if you don't feel comfortable with it, like I still know all the principles of design and I could probably pull it off, but if it's not what you're passionate about and what you love that can be projected as well. And are you necessarily going to produce the best outcome for everybody? And just on that note of what you were saying about. It's all about choosing a style and, focusing in on that. If you look at some of the biggest interior design accounts, you can almost look at an image and just know it's theirs. If you look in their feeds, they've got cohesiveness across all of their projects. They've got their style and that's probably why they're doing so well. And it's probably why they get winning a lot of clients.

rhiannon: 15:43

It's interesting because at the beginning, I understand why that is a mindset because it's I don't want to say no to jobs that come in to deposit and, everything in hindsight. Because I'm not in any way saying, Oh, we're doing it better because we do it like this. It's more like a learned thing over time where it's okay, when I closed. When I stopped opening up to all things to everybody, and I actually went, I just want to work with these dream clients. My feed got more cohesive and people went, I am loving your modern organic style. I want a design by Oleander and Finch in my living room. I've been watching. I want that look. Also building brand. Like strength in sponsorships and collaborations and other things. Cause you're getting to be like, I always, an example, a beautiful small business out of South Australia, Gypsy Lane living I've used many times I've put them in homes in Hawaii and the U S and so they've sent stuff across and I use them so many times, like you build this really strong relationship. And then I can be like, I need a custom piece, babe. It's eight meters long. Will you do it in the workshop for me? And that to me is. Was so much better and brings more value, even though you might've seen a wall hanging I think there's one over there, actually up there. You might've seen things like that repeatedly. And I think sometimes newer designers are worried about repetition and they're worried about not showing all of their magic tricks. And it's sometimes less is more just like in design negative space. Yeah. I was about to say that. Yeah. And removing the noise is a good thing. So sometimes it's actually, you're going to go faster and further. By thinking about what kind of feed am I building? Just like you said, you've got that one page business plan and you're like, how am I constantly showing what I'm capable of and what my. Aesthetic is, how do I keep going in that direction? That's going to take you faster. You'll still get there, but you wouldn't have wasted a year and a half saying yes to a lot of things that maybe didn't. I

heather: 17:43

think the other thing is that whole quality over quantity. Okay. Just focus on honing that style and being known for that and doing it really so that the end result is fantastic, that you're really happy with it. Your client's really happy with it. I would encourage people to, I know it's hard when you're starting out and there's not a huge amount of budget, but just try and get some professional photography, even if it's just a few images. Because having that roof will really help build trust and help you to get new clients. So I think, yeah, quality over quantity.

rhiannon: 18:19

It's even fine to get, you can do family mini sessions for 95 or whatever, and they give you two images. You can approach a photographer and ask for like a vignette session at your own home with your own things to showcase your style, but have it photographed professionally. Those become. Images that you can use across social media. And I'm always like, I always get really frustrated at the Fast pace and frequency of new content. And if we think about even social media five, six years ago, when we first started following each other or whatnot, and at that time there was certain houses you mentioned again, going on to certain feeds and their formula and that you can spot if you're on Pinterest, you're like, that's one of hers, that's one of hers, et cetera. There are certain homes where you see their kitchen in your feed and you're like, Oh yeah, that's Mal's house. Or, Oh yeah, I know that's that person's house because they have repeatedly used the same images so that you, it's just emphasizing their aesthetic over and over again. And I see way too many people being like, Oh, okay, next. Or I got professional photography. I posted the before. As the front photo and the after behind it as the second in the swipe thing, and I never posted it in the other direction or from 12.

heather: 19:35

We recycle content like our images all the time. We have to, because we get a lot of images from a project. We'll get about a hundred images because we're doing a whole house, but then it can be a year or two before the next. Project comes up in the next opportunity for new images. So we're always repurposing that. I think it's it's again what are you trying? Who's your ideal client? What are you trying to talk to them about? Because you use that example of the carousel before and after and switching it. You can just change the caption. And create content that's engaging and that is going to get the client interested and educates them. And, all of the things that are going to help them build. I'll start to trust you and see you as actually, yeah, someone that I can come to for interior design help. And that can take time. That's the other thing people don't so much about content. When you look at your analytics, you'll notice that not everyone sees your stuff. The first time, like it takes quite a few times and I have held back in that way in the past, cause I didn't want to be in your face. Don't want to be salesy like that person. Oh no, I can't do that. And we did some trialing of some stuff recently. And I was like, Oh, actually that really works. So you do need to yeah keep posting and it doesn't always have to be a different image. You can reuse. Images, or you can turn, if you've got a few images, you can turn them into a reel. Yeah,

rhiannon: 21:06

it's, I honestly think if you are going to get paid professional photos early on, you look at each image, you could, work with TATJPT if you need help. Sparking ideas or whatever, but you could write down 50 different topics to talk about with that one vignette in the kitchen, whether it's using, bringing timber into warm, the space, whether it's talking about scale in kitchens, talking about creating these spaces, covering the PowerPoint. Like I could go on and on. I feel and each one of them could just be a caption. So there's just so much on the cutting room floor that shouldn't be, especially when you're new. Don't worry about the fact that you don't have five. I have 800 projects. I'm not showcasing all of them. So you don't got a favorites and you like bring them up and whatnot. So you don't need, I think we think at the beginning you need more than you actually do. You just need to be able to come up with enough ideas and source an image that goes with it and talk to your audience. Talk to'em like real people. Talk to them how you wanna read, pretend to text them, and that's your caption. Like you really, yeah.

heather: 22:05

I think finding their pain points and talking very specifically to that remembering, why are they looking for an interior designer? What, understanding it almost from their point of view and what they, or why they really need your help and being able to talk to that in your content and how you can help them solve their problems.

rhiannon: 22:29

And I think people forget the simplicity of, I just want to help because they're too busy saying, how do I call out their pain problems and make them feel horrible? Cause there is a whole marketing psychology of like really laying it on, right? You're going to make the wrong choice and you spending all this money on the tiles and you're going to stuff it up. And that's actually that's not my approach. I don't know. I'm sure it's some people's, but when we really break it down, it's like. I'm over here. And all I really want to do is talk to you about the sorts of things that I could help you. So treating your content, like a discovery call and selling what you do and how you're ready and waiting to help with such great advice. In terms of we talked about like partnerships and collaborations and things before, how do you approach that sort of thing? Because I know, again, might be before the car, but there's lots of new people who like, I can't wait to get, whether it's further down the line to have done that.

heather: 23:19

It is hard work for anyone who wants to start out with partnerships and collaborations. I think, there's a lot of people doing it. So there's a lot of competition in the market, which makes it really hard. And you're not always going to be aligned. You might think that what you do is great, but it just might not align with a particular partner at that time, or they might not have budget for it. I think the main thing is just getting out there and building relationships. If you're really new at it, and you maybe you don't have all the pretty photography and all of that sort of thing to prove it, just build relationships. Figure out the key suppliers that you want to work with, try and DM them on social media, try and find a contact in LinkedIn, the right person, introduce yourself, ask to be on their newsletter, if they've got a specific newsletter for interior designers or specifiers, find out how can I be put on that list so that I'm being updated with new products, new information ask if you can be invited to events. Get in a room with other people and, do a meet and greet go into for example, we use LemonX, go into the Hive by LemonX and introduce yourself. Yeah. Don't be scared because you don't know what opportunity is just around the corner. I think. It can be easy to almost fear rejection, but just, we've just learned if it's a no, it often just means no, not now. Like we've had lots of doors opened up to us in the last six months that were doors that felt closed for a really long time, and it was really frustrating. Don't know what changed, but something did.

rhiannon: 25:10

And you go and ask them, so then you can come back and tell us. Yeah, I'll

heather: 25:14

see what I can find out. And yeah, so I think just don't, don't take it too personally when you get told no. If you don't already have a pitch deck, put a pitch deck together so that if you're found a contact within a supplier that you want to call collab with, or you want to have a partnership with that you've got something to send them something that says, Hey, this is who I am. And I think find your edge or find your unique point, a different differentiation, because not only does that work well with clients and. Potential customers for you. But it also helps suppliers to look at you and go how are you different? Because from a business perspective, they could go and invest in different people. So they need to see how do How are you different? And I'll give you an example of that. So we specialize in new builds. That's what we've done. And for a long time, our content spoke to people who were renovating and doing new builds because we were a little bit scared of, Oh, we've got to pay one of your revenue, and about 12 months ago, we said, no, we're focusing on new builds. That's what we do. We actually saw a gap in the market and when nobody's really doing it in the not many, a lot of people talk to the renovators and there's nothing wrong with that, but we don't renovate. We do new builds and it is a slightly different process, particularly before construction begins. A lot of our content at the moment is talking to that. Now, we've had a supplier reach out to us. Who already influencer that is big in the renovation space, but they like what we do because we talk to people who are building with a builder. And doing the whole project for them. The client doesn't project manage anything. They're going straight to the builder. And in their eyes, aligning themselves with us. It's very strategic for them because it's where they wanted to head in their business with instead of selling their product directly to the consumer, they want to be able to get through to that the builders and

rhiannon: 27:19

cover the market because they've got renovated. Yeah. So where else can we

heather: 27:23

go? That's right. And so it was really like, we just started chatting and we're like, Oh, my gosh, this aligns so well with our direction. So it was fantastic. But unless you're in front of people and having those conversations you just don't know. And it's a long process. I'm not going to lie. It's a tough slog partnerships at the moment and collaborations, but yeah, just keep chipping away

rhiannon: 27:49

at it. I love that advice, especially around yes, you shoot your shot, but that doesn't mean no forever. So it's okay to repeat, send that pitch deck again next year for this, tweak the offering or, really ask yourself if it's. Clear enough as well. Have you talked about a post campaign report? Have you talked about what your audience is like? And, sometimes they're all bit, hi, I'm Rhiannon. And it's la, and it's got nice photos, but there's nothing for the marketing team to go in and say, what's the return on investment? Who's, who are we actually going to talk to through this person? And I think get someone else's eyes on it, drop into my DMs anytime, come over and say to someone who's already done a partnership. I've had a bit of a go. I've got a draft. Would you have a look at it? It's not asking for their pitch deck. It's asking for their advice. And I think we don't do this enough. We don't actually go out because it's like secret squirrels, but it's. It doesn't do you any favors because you'll be shooting your shot all over town and getting a whole bunch of no's because no one really knows what you're actually. That's

heather: 28:45

right. And although although it might be a no for that time, and I said it might come down the track. If you had someone review your pitch deck, maybe it wouldn't be, yeah, maybe it would be.

rhiannon: 28:59

That's right. Sometimes a small tweak that you don't actually know is missing. We get, we all have blind spots in our businesses and our office, especially, unless you've come previously from an influencer background or whatever, you could be very often in the framework. Girls come and go, Oh, I've been approached or what do I do? Or I want to work with this small candle business or whatever. And I'm like the first thing you've got to step back and think about is. This something I would have done for free and would have talked about for free. Cause just because a mattress property contacts you doesn't mean that's what your content would have ever been about. So you've got to make sure

heather: 29:32

we decline a lot of things for that reason. If it doesn't align with who we are and what we're about and what we're trying to do, then it just doesn't, it's not going to resonate with our audience

rhiannon: 29:42

and then they're not going to get the result as a brand either. And then if we go back to your one page business plan, it's also a little bit like I think the work involved is underestimated heavily. So once you've said, yes, it's all exciting, pop the champagne, you've got a partnership, you're responsible for driving that growth to that investment piece. So they've come on and said, okay, we're going to Collaborate with you or invest in you. We're going to get you to be an arm of our marketing approach this year or this quarter or whatnot, but it can be high stakes because you're actually responsible with delivering growth. Does that mean you need to pay for paid ads or what does it actually look like? I think. I get nervous about the amount of after work because then I'm like, Oh, then I'm on video and are you prepared to be on a video if they send a film? Yeah. Are you prepared to do these things? Cause it's all exciting when you're planning, but if you don't think further, you get caught in the act.

heather: 30:37

And we have done that. And. We're fortunate like, so a lot of our partnerships, not all of them, but a lot of them repeat partnerships, fortunately. But yeah, there's always a really big sense of responsibility. You don't want to let them down. You don't want to not perform and we have to give it our very best. And there's a lot of strategy involved in making that happen. And a lot of our content is all professional. So, professional photography and videography. So there's a lot of. Preparing in the background to execute that and make it all happen. And we probably, in the early days, really underestimated the amount of work and therefore undervalued what we did. And so now we're a lot more. No, this is. Because it's not just about our costs to invest in the photography and the videography, it's our time. And so for us, we, we do, price quite high because we're like, no, like it we can't do it for

rhiannon: 31:41

free. And it weeds out the people that are like actually serious about being in that partnership.

heather: 31:46

Absolutely. I agree. I'll say to people, if it's time away from my family. Yeah. I want to be paid for it. Yeah, just it's, I think it's okay to do it in the early days, but just be careful and probably, even if you had a proposal put before you and you were trying to price it, try and factor in your time and then it'll be double what you think. Yeah. Add some because, and then price it according to that, because it does always take longer than what you think it's going to take.

rhiannon: 32:15

Yeah. It's really good advice. And also around, What do I want to say? Like frequency, not frequency, but it dilutes completely. If you're one post is with a candle company and the next post is a vacuum cleaner and the next post is a sofa bed. And the next post is the pull out bins and the next bit like really think about, and that's fine. That is some people's like bread and butter and they're happy to do that. And they like more leaning towards content creation than trying to attract clients. But if you're in the early days. Pick a lane. Like you said, follow your path. If you're wanting to attract clients, you're better off putting your time into your own marketing to try to bring those clients in. Those clients are not going to be attracted by your collaboration. Like they're just not because it's diluting your message every time you put something out. So you're gonna have to push a piece of your content to the side in order to bring a collaboration to the forefront. And that's I also think

heather: 33:09

in doing that. What you, what I said earlier about, knowing your target market, knowing your ideal client, knowing their pain points, you start talking to that and being very specific in your content. Then what you'll probably find is that potentially suppliers will come to you. If you find your niche and your unique point of differentiation, then people will see that suppliers will see that and go, actually, that, That's good. Like they're who we're looking for. They're a bit different. They're maybe that supplier is trying to access a different part of the market and sees you as an opportunity to reach that particular audience based on the content that you're currently putting out there. So you're still focusing on your business plan, your ideal client and their pain points. You're doing everything you need to do to try and Build your following and to get. New clients, but then that's just a bonus, right? That if someone, a supplier sees you and sees what you're doing and then they might, approach you. So yeah, I definitely think it's yeah, it's a lot of work

rhiannon: 34:24

and it's something that I think even if a big. Name supplier or middle name or little name supplier approaches you like everything you still have a decision to make you still have to run it through a lens and a filter of whether or not it sits well with you that I definitely have had that. I didn't go after any collaborations, but I do have a pitch deck and other things because they. Definitely started coming my way and I was saying no a lot. And then there was a couple, I wanted to say yes to there have been some partnerships that I've done that I've really loved being involved with. But it's quite a totally different thing and a different skill and a different consideration. So it can be nice to maybe just brainstorm some, that pitch pack or that preparation. Waiting for that to happen. It can take you by surprise is my point. And it can be like, send us over something by lunchtime tomorrow because yeah, just

heather: 35:15

have something simple there. Yeah,

rhiannon: 35:17

just something that's a quick two page and it just sometimes,

heather: 35:20

you don't have to let I am a perfectionist and it's not always ideal. You can think, oh, I'll just do it later when I've got enough time to make that pitch deck perfect. Actually, no, just have something because then if you're approached, you've got something to give them. If they've approached you, they already like you. Otherwise, they wouldn't have come to you send them something. At least you get the email chain happening. You get the communication line open and then worry about the next step. I often did that in the past thinking I had to have all my ducks in a row and then it was like, actually, no

rhiannon: 35:59

just. One duck at a time is fine. They still get in the row.

heather: 36:03

Absolutely. They get there eventually.

rhiannon: 36:06

I've done that before. I said yes to things and they're like, we're going to need your head shot by Wednesday. And that's when I ran out and got a photographer and I was like, I need you to take these photos and return at least one edited. I don't care. We'll pick one. Just so that it can go to print because it was, a print media opportunity that I wanted to take really early on. Yeah, I don't have what I need, but I'm not going to let that stop me because then I'm going to be sitting on the other side of that thinking that was something that would have been amazing. And I'm really. Disappointed that I lost it because I didn't feel like everything was perfect. I just scrambled in the background and said yes to everything in the front, out the front. So, probably not the best of business advisors. It's oh, but then you, once you've done that, then you have that on file. So the next time someone contacts you, you're like, no problems. Did you need a high res image? You've got the language, you've got the comfort in I can send that over. But everyone's got to do it first. Yeah.

heather: 37:00

And you improve and you make changes and it's part of the journey.

rhiannon: 37:04

Yeah. And it's never perfect because your face changes, like I've got images from, I think one session I had one branding session I had, I was. Maybe seven months pregnant with my son. And then in another one, I was like very newly postpartum, both of them. I feel like a puffer fish, it's just because I was pregnant. And that's, it is what it is. You can always get another one, but at least it's there and you have it and you're not sitting there without any of the ability to Execute if an opportunity comes your way, because that's where you feel nervous about going after stuff to if you're in a room, if you're networking, if someone says, Oh, tell us more about, Oh, can I have your email address? Because I'd love to do, you can feel nervous about even. Delivering that. Cause you think, Oh God, and then you're going to email me and I'm just going to look like an idiot. Yeah, we say things like make the work you wish you were doing. Like I always say that cause you'll attract more of that. So if you don't have clients, like just try to make that work. And I guess some of that can be the same create. The documentation in the background that you wish you were being requested all the time and, ready manifestation or whatever out to the universe right there, chances are you have been, you're going to be very grateful that it's saved in the back end when the time comes. And

heather: 38:16

I think also sometimes just on that note, you might do it the first time. I do this with a lot of documents that I work on. I, I have a limit of how long I can sit there and do certain things. And I, and so now I've just learned to go, okay, I'll do that. And I might leave it for a week cause it's not urgent. And I come back with it with fresh eyes and it's just so much clearer, so much easier, and then I might come back a third time to really fine tune it. And then it's done.

rhiannon: 38:44

And it's easier because you haven't been stuck in the middle of it, overthinking it. Absolutely. Yeah.

heather: 38:50

If I thought I was going to sit there and try and nut it out in one day, I just know now I can't like, so I'll plan according to that because I know that I will just get stuck at one point and go, Oh, this is just too much. It's too frustrating. So now I just break it down into bite size. Yeah, that's exactly

rhiannon: 39:08

the process that I take as well with client work. That's why my timelines are set the way that they are. So I might finish talking to a client and brain dump and go. Basically 90 percent do the design straight after the call, but I'm going to think about it, not really look at it. Come back to it in six days, fine tune and edit, and then deliver it on the 10th day as promised. Even though 90 percent of the heavy lifting was done in an hour after the call, but it's I need the space to be intentional, to revisit it, to feel like it's good and I love that too with documentation and I do teach this. And so the framework is always the first viable version. Then we save. Then you walk away, then you come back, then I'll allow you, 20 minutes of perfectionism, if you want to pick at it and then you walk away and then it's almost done, if anybody needed it, you would just be able to personalize it for that particular job and do that last little detail and it saves the, what is it just like when you just, Get stuck in it. And you're just wasting time and nothing good is happening.

heather: 40:12

You end up wasting time and you could just move on to something else, do something else, and I'm far more productive when I do

rhiannon: 40:21

that sort of brings me to my next question. I'm always curious because I know this is something that comes up for every creative, but around how you deal with moments of self doubt or imposter syndrome in your career. And if you'd have any advice for people starting out if they're having similar feelings at the start, what would you advise that they can

heather: 40:39

do? Okay. So guilty of all of the above happens all the time. I think, I've said this a few times during this interview already, but when you have a business plan and you know who that ideal client is for you and how you, what they want and how you want to talk to them, it's, Helps you, to focus your designs on meeting their needs. Now I say that because the kind of projects that I do are not high end, but it's very easy for me to go onto Instagram and look at some really high end things. And all of a sudden I don't feel good enough. Like my work's not good enough. I'm not going to do high end. I don't live in an area Where I need to do high end. If I did high end, I would be overcapitalizing. So I choose to just stay focused and in my lane. I just go, no, what they do is amazing for the budget that they have for the clients that they're working with. They are incredible. What I do is different. And that's okay, because we're not all going to be the same as interior designers. I'm just doing what I know my audience. And so for us, we, we created a client avatar and we know what they roughly spending on a house. We know what they're looking for. And, you know, they're not looking for the base package with a project home builder. They are spending a little bit more than that, but they're also not spending a high end budget and. I often say, and it's just a reminder to me all the time. You've probably heard it before. But comparison is the thief of joy. I just think I am so blessed to do what I do every day and I'm just not going. I just choose not to allow myself. Although I do it a little bit. I snap out of it quite quickly,

rhiannon: 42:41

snap the spiral quickly because yeah, very

heather: 42:44

quickly and I just, and that's why I was saying about knowing your client and working towards that and creating based off of that, because we all have our place in the industry. And we're not all going to be the same and that's okay, but I'm just not going to compare myself to someone. Completely different. And then rob myself of any joy that I have. I do have, or should have in what I do.

rhiannon: 43:10

And I love that you talk about like imposter syndrome at every level because every creative is feeling it. So on the days that if you are having to snap yourself out or if anything is coming up for you and you're looking at somebody else, the example you gave like a more high end, they're then looking at the next level. And thinking the same thing. So it's, you're never alone with this sort of stuff, but it can again, be another sucker of time. Cause you've sat around feeling a bit like gone into a doom vortex of Ooh, I'm not good enough or we should do something else.

heather: 43:43

Yeah, I think on that point as well, that's when it's easy to, and I've probably done this a bit in the past, move around a bit too much, if that makes sense. So Oh, I'll just try that and I'll just try that and I'll do a bit of that and that's working for them, but it's working for them because they're targeting a particular client. If that's not the same client for you, then it's. You don't need to try what they're trying just because it's working for them. You need to do what's working for your

rhiannon: 44:13

potential clients, which is definitely another learned business skill, because at the beginning, sometimes if we don't have the finance to invest in education pieces or coaching or all sorts of things, what can happen is, and this is totally normal. This is something I totally did too is listening to podcasts like this, pulling together a bit of strategy from over here, learning a bit from this business. Audio like audible that you've downloaded and then going over there and chatting to someone else who runs a cafe and what they're like, what accounting software are they using? And so you're asking a lot of different people. So you're escalating the noise because you've got lots of different opinions. And just like that, instead of having your one plan and looking and following and just going step by step in that direction, you end up doing the nut bush and running around in circles and you're like, Oh, I'm busy over here. Feels like progress, but it's not nearly as fast as it could be if it's targeted progress, if you actually going down and follow and talk to one person, work with one person, or yeah, just write my own strategy and do that thing. Everyone's I've spent some time. I've done the strategy thing, but sometimes I feel like that's done on the 5th of January and that's in the front of your business diary and you're not looking at it again. Yeah.

heather: 45:33

Yeah. Constantly. Yeah. Put some more in depth planning in place and strategy and steps. What are my goals for the end of the year? Do some goal setting and then, cause then you'll have that at the end of the year, you can look back and you might not achieve everything. But you can look back and go actually I did all of that. And that's I'm happy with that and be satisfied. But if you don't have that direction of what comes next and what step to take, that's where we get overwhelmed when we don't know the next step in a process to take.

rhiannon: 46:05

Or not considering the steps and tools and tactics you're going to need to get the end result. So that maybe that's plotting that in your diary. So that in eight weeks, there's just a question. Have you pitched to print media yet? Or have you got photography yet? Just keeps questioning you. Don't just look at it as the goal at the front of the diary, but you turn the page, it's the 4th of May and all of a sudden there's a thing there saying how many photographed projects have you done or yeah, spend the time on the 5th of January doing that and it's going to ride you all year long to actually, it's not about guilt. It's about accountability and just constantly revisiting. Otherwise, it's never going to happen if you're not pushing yourself to do it. Last one, I'm just going to get your advice on would be around project management tips for new designers just to stay organized and efficient. Obviously you've got sort of family, you've got partnerships and yeah, what are your tips for staying organized and productive?

heather: 46:58

I've got, okay. So I think investing, the good thing about. This is like subscription based programs that you are going to need to help you are pretty affordable when you're starting out. So I think being willing to spend on that is worth it. So things like Canva, to get your own creative, creativity happening we use Notion. I think Notion is.

rhiannon: 47:24

I say it every day. Oh yeah. I teach it in the framework because I don't think anyone should start a business without basic notion and then grow and grow because the more you know, the more you do, it's amazing for a while.

heather: 47:37

And we haven't used it to the. Full capacity. We're always growing and we're always. Are

rhiannon: 47:44

you always doing what I'm doing, which is I wish you were here five years ago. Like the mouth, like as I'm learning more, I'm like, Oh yeah, I just used to do that by carrier pigeon. No problem. Yes.

heather: 47:55

Yeah. Yeah. No, love it. There's just, and even earlier this year, I read a book called time magic. I don't know. It's by an Australian couple. And yeah, I read it and I honestly think I would highly recommend that book to anybody. I just

rhiannon: 48:11

loved it. It was so good. I'm going to put a link in the show notes and I'm going to go check it out this afternoon. Okay. Yeah, it was really

heather: 48:16

good. And they covered like a really broad range. They don't use notion, but they had another time management program that they use, but because I already had notion, I was like, I'm just going to take your tips and adapt it and use it. And I've seen a massive change in my productivity, if you like, since just the start of this year. So that's been a big one to help and probably time blocking as well is something like I work from home, I've got kids. So my working hours are within. School hours. And that can be a good thing and a bad thing. So what I decided after reading time magic was I needed a lot more structure. So I, yeah, I have time blocks. I have times where I do and I'll work at I do a lot of blog writing. So I'm like, okay, that's when I do my blog writing. And this is when I do my social media calendar. And this is when I'm going to work on my proposals. And this is my. Interior design block, as we were talking earlier, we said about sometimes when you're working on a project, you may only have a good 2, 3, or maybe 4 hours max. And then it's oh, so that's where time blocking is really good, because then you can work on that project and go. I had 3 hours put aside, I've reached my 3 hours, but it's okay, because I know I've got another 2 hours blocked in 3 days time to come back to this.

rhiannon: 49:44

Similar tasks as well. Put your makeup on, get dressed up nicely and do all of your calls on a one single day. Don't spread them out five days a week. You've got people zooming in, you've got, and this might feel relevant at the very beginning, but if you're thinking about systemizing, if you start practicing time blocking, like Mondays are marketing Mondays, Fridays are finance Fridays. But if you just start with what the tasks you need, then you Momentum and habit, right? So when you do have enough clients that you're like, okay. And when you send them a calendar link, or you have an automation that says book with me, you're able to get all those appointments booked and put them all together. And I think a lot of people are afraid of. Minimizing their availability to people. They need to be seven days. you go into the calendar, you can book any time. Actually, you've given them seven choices. They're just 15 minute increments on that one day. And that is exactly the same perception for them. As long as they have options and you haven't just said here, book in my calendar, you get 10 AM on Monday. As long as you're like anytime between 10 and two, cause I've got school pickup on Monday, that's option. And I really wish more people like we, you don't have to be available and yessing and people pleasing everybody. Build the business that you want to run, be in and love.

heather: 50:58

And it's okay to say no. I used to do that a lot. I used to say yes to everything and would just get really overwhelmed by it all. And I think it's just about being more efficient with your time,

rhiannon: 51:08

More productivity tips in the future. I'm sure we'll do some sort of episode with someone or myself around that sort of stuff. Cause it is really helpful and really great advice. Thank you. Now I'm going to let you go. We have gotten so many amazing tips from you and I really loved having our chat, so hopefully we can do it again soon. Yes.

heather: 51:28

Good to see you too. And

rhiannon: 51:30

we'll talk soon. Great. Bye for now.

51:34

That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.