Jen Bishop of The Interiors Addict

In this insightful interview, Jen from The Interiors Addict shares her journey from a newspaper journalist to a successful interior design blogger. Her business began as a passion project and organically grew into a flexible, family-friendly enterprise. Jen highlights the importance of owning content, rather than relying solely on social media platforms, and discusses the value of maintaining a blog. She provides practical advice on pitching accentuating the importance of building relationships with journalists, understanding publication needs, and investing in professional photography. This conversation is a MUST LISTEN  for interior designers looking to gain media exposure and grow their businesses.

Check out the interiors addict online here https://theinteriorsaddict.com/
Connect with Jen via insta here https://www.instagram.com/interiorsaddict
And explore ways to work with her here https://theinteriorsaddict.com/workwithus

The presenting partner for this episode is Pureflor - Use code 'Design' for a sneaky discount  For a better environment | Pureflor

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Transcript

0:11

Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you could expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success Joining me today in the studio is the lovely Jen Bishop, and Jen is the editor of The Interiors Addict, which is an online digital publication all about all things interiors. And Jen is a journalist. She has a wealth of knowledge and experience. And I recently had her come and do a special masterclass inside of the framework and the framework has loved it so much. We asked all the actual behind the scenes questions and one of them even got published quickly thereafter. And I thought, Hey, let's get Jen on the podcast because there was just so many things that I thought we could chat about that hopefully would encourage you and inspire you to just reach out and see what's possible. We are our biggest worst enemies when it comes to holding ourselves back, back from business growth, back from any sort of accolade or pats on the backs. I don't know if that's cultural or it certainly feels gendered. I think women are particularly terrible at saying, Hey, I did a thing. It was pretty good. Have a look. It's over there. And so I hope to inspire you to change that opinion. And Jen just had so many tips on how you can do things really quick, really easy. And it's definitely something I would encourage more of you to have in your Q3, Q4 planning, because who wouldn't love to be featured in the interiors addict. So please enjoy my chat with Jen

Jen: 2:01

it's good to be here. Always up for a chat.

rhiannon: 2:03

Can you tell me a little bit about, your business journey, where you've been, all of that sort of stuff to introduce everyone to the world of interiors and yourself?

Jen: 2:13

Yes. I'm British, which you can probably hear, but not as much as I used to sound. And so my background is all as a journalist. I started my career as a newspaper journalist at the age of 18 following an internship. On the local newspaper, and I worked in various newspapers and magazines for a good 10 or so years and then moved to Australia in 2008. That was supposed to be for one year, and I'm still here. And when I first got here, I worked as editor of a business mag for five years. Started interiors addict as a hobby, just as a little, it wasn't even a side hustle because it was never supposed to be a business. It was just a fun little blog about interiors. So I don't have any design qualifications, but I've just always been obsessed with home stuff and decorating. And even as a teenager, that was the case. And somehow it turned into a business. Was all very organic, but I think I had been doing it for about 18 months and I found I was spending all my spare time on it and then when I got made redundant from my print magazine job, a lot of people encouraged me to give it a go. As a business, which to me seemed crazy at the time, but I was like, do you know what? I've got a bit of a payout at the time. I didn't have a mortgage. I didn't have kids. And I thought I'll give it six months. And that was in 2013 and yeah, we're still here. And now it's a business, which is as a mom of two, now it's a business, which is flexible around my family, which is the most important thing. But I also. Love it. So doing what I'm trained to do, which is to write but writing about what I love, which is interiors.

rhiannon: 3:57

I feel like that was a time, wasn't it? Like you think about 2013, and we were all looking at blogs and reading blogs and things. And I almost feel like we're a decade later coming full circle. I've seen a lot more marketing conversations being had about, Not putting all of your eggs in Instagram and actually exploring doing blogs on your website, looking at SEO, looking at Pinterest and linking back. And I feel like I haven't seen that for a while, whereas that's what it used to all be about. And I don't know, have you noticed that? I do feel like we're coming back.

Jen: 4:27

Yeah, in a way. It's quite different sort of having a blog that is a publication as such, which is what interiors addict is quite different from. Having a blog that's part of your business, but having said that a lot of the things are are the same and that's like you were saying, it's owning your content on your own channels, which is what you're doing. If you have a blog on your website or. A blog that's its own beast is always going to be a great idea. You absolutely can't put too many eggs in one basket, especially if you don't own the basket, like Instagram or Facebook. They're all great channels and they're great for marketing and for different things, but yeah. At your peril spend too much time on any of them, really.

rhiannon: 5:10

Yeah, I hard agree with that. And also, they are very different things, aren't they? Your once a month blog on your own website versus what you're actually doing. Yes. What's the cycle like for you? Is that a daily, daily changes in the digital content that you put out?

Jen: 5:26

We usually publish twice a day, Monday to Friday 6am and 11am. It's quite a lot of content. And I would love to say that's all scheduled out well in advance and that we have an editorial calendar and all these kinds of things, but we actually don't. And I quite love that because we are reacting to whatever is topical, whatever we think our readers might like. Yeah, it's literally planned on a week to week basis, but that's the joy of digital, it's, you can be so nimble and quick and you can schedule something and then decide something else is more important for that week and just schedule it for a different time. So I quite enjoy that it's, or it's very, it's a very like ever changing. beast and nothing has to be rigid, which I really like.

rhiannon: 6:15

It feels going back to 18 year old you in the newspaper and looking at why we are attracted to journalism or why we like those dynamic environments and those sort of, people who work well to deadlines, and sometimes Organization isn't like you mentioned, being able to be dynamic and not when we bulk create things like reels or whatever, by the time you're either sick of them, you've seen them for ages in your draft folder or the movements moved on the things no longer a thing like at your own peril to use your own words, it's like you can have too much content and then. Yeah, it gets wasted and you're wasting a lot of time by doing that. I love that.

Jen: 6:53

That's true. Like I am a fan of the batching. Not myself, but just in general, like. For business owners to batch create things is, can be a great thing and a way to, just ensure that you do have a regular amount of content going out. But yeah, you are absolutely right. If you do too much of it, you as well, I think if you do too much of that, you lose the just authentic rapport with your audience and that they're replying to what you're doing. And if you're getting too much into scheduled content, I do think you lose that like authentic kind of. Relationship and chat. Yeah. There's like a sweet spot.

rhiannon: 7:29

It feels like there needs to be a sweet spot for your own ability to keep up. You have a folder, you have some stuff, you've got some things like loosely skeleton scheduled and ideas. But yeah, I feel like if exactly as you said, if someone comes to you and you're like, sorry, I can't talk to you about that. It's not what I'm working on Wednesday. You need to come back because that's scheduled for next week. I feel like that it can feel a bit robotic instead of just showing up and going with the flow.

Jen: 7:56

Absolutely.

rhiannon: 7:58

Now I want to have a little chat about, from a designer's perspective, many of my audience are interior designers, just around how can they. Approach getting published, how is the best way for them to go about in general, following the right things, connecting with the right people. What is your advice around getting published with your work?

Jen: 8:20

I think first of all, don't be afraid of trying to get published and don't imagine that's only something for the big guys, because of course they, the big guys are the people who get the front cover of bell, but there are. There are a lot of other sort of small opportunities, which could be just as valuable to your business for you to get published. So don't feel like that's not something for me or that's only something for, a big famous. High profile, high end, expensive designers. I think as with everything in business, it's about relationships. And if someone wants to get published on interiors addict, then I certainly appreciate if they have reached out to me in the past, if I know who they are, if they've had a chat on Instagram, DMS, for example people want to deal with people who they have a rapport with or who they, recognize or have seen commenting on something they've done. And, they're very basic. Things, but it does apply to pitching to media. So yeah don't think it's not for you. Try and establish a bit of a relationship with the journalist or the editor before you approach them. And I guess also do your homework so that the kind of projects that they're going to accept. Where is this online publication? Have you seen them use, amateur photos before most publications are going to want? Professional photography. So that's another tip, but it's worth looking to see for example, on interiors addicts, sometimes we would run something without professional photography, if it's like a before and after or something like that. So no, who you're pitching to what they're likely to. Accept what fits with them, if someone can email me and say, Hey, I saw this story you did last week, and I've got something similar, or it made me think you might be interested in this great before and after bathroom I've got it just shows that You've done your homework and you're not just sending it to everyone.

rhiannon: 10:22

It's such a good rule of thumb for pitching to anything. I cannot tell you how many times I get podcast pitches like, Hey, Oleander. And I can see that person has followed me three hours ago. Yes, exactly. And then they've said, I love everything you do. If you loved everything you do, you would know my name is not Eliander. Like even if you listen to my podcast one time, you would know that my

Jen: 10:44

name is not Ollie. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it? And it's not just flattering people. It's just showing that, I don't really care if someone's been reading for three years, but if they say. I followed you forever and then you look in your Instagram and you're like, Oh, they started following me 10 minutes ago. Then it's just seems disingenuous. And it's going to, it's not going to, it's just going to get you back up before you decide if you're going to say yes or no. And then if you've got three great pictures, you'll be like, yeah, no they weren't honest. So maybe, it just puts you off. Doesn't it.

rhiannon: 11:15

Yeah, and I can totally forgive you if someone comes into my email and says, Hey, Ollie, and I've just come across your page. I've just gone into a deep dive. I really loved it. And here's how I think your audience could benefit from a collaboration together. That to me, I would totally consider and it's okay if you didn't know my name because it may be, you just didn't notice it wasn't the same as the profile name. But yeah, it's the bit where it's I'm a super fan.

Jen: 11:38

That

rhiannon: 11:38

makes you feel a little bit like, Oh, and I think you don't need to, as you say, really over massaged the egos of the. reader of where the pitch is landing, but you just need to have you have to have been intentional and considered how this is helpful for the other person's business. Cause the other person is letting you into their business basically, and access to their audience for free. So that is the thing that we like to respect and say, okay this is how I think it can. Help propel, it's a mutual benefit and then it's totally fine, whatever you want to call me,

Jen: 12:11

it is and it's interesting you say that because it absolutely is a mutual benefit. And I think people forget that can get very worked up in Oh, I'm not good enough. Oh, could I be in a magazine? What are they going to think of me? And then you've got people like me on the other end who are actually like, Oh, that's a great project. That's going to look really good. I would love that story. That's an amazing before and after. That's going to get me lots of clicks. My readership are going to like that. So we win too. We don't take projects unless there's something, unless it's good, free content for us. So even though. A lot of people pay a lot of money to be on Interiors Addict. We, we need that great content to have the amount of eyeballs we have, which enable us to charge people to advertise, et cetera. So yeah, it's definitely a two way street and it's worth remembering that if you're feeling a little bit shy about approaching media.

rhiannon: 13:06

I often reference that inside of the course around, going back to when I worked in corporate and there were two people whose full time jobs was to ascertain who would be good social media influences, good collaboration, good partnerships, and you, if you reach out to someone and you have a genuine offer, or you have a genuine thing that can help you help them do their job. They're never going to be cross about that. You reach out to a journalist. They're like, I've got to put out this much content twice a day. If that content is honestly considered and good and a good fit, then you have helped them hit their quota for that day. And they appreciate that. And they can always say to you I. Do really love the angle, but I wouldn't be visiting that until a later edition, or it's very likely that anyone's going to come back and say, you're a terrible person. You have terrible ideas.

Jen: 13:56

That's not a thing. Yeah. Projects, rubbish. No, exactly that. And also on that point the more you can do to make the journal, make it easy for the journalists to say yes, the better. And a few tips around that would be, send the, if you have the photography already, when you pitch, send a link to that Dropbox, because In the sea of emails, if I can click on that email quickly, find the images and say, Oh yeah, that's great. And get straight back to them. Whereas if there's no images and I have to reply and say can I see the images or maybe I get distracted and I don't, and then something else happens or I accidentally delete the email, all these things that happen in a busy inbox on a busy day when you're multitasking. Make it really hard to say no would be a piece of advice I would give, show me the images, tell me why my audience will like it. Reference a, something we've already published that was similar. Tell me I'm happy to talk on the phone anytime. Here's my number, make it all very easy to say yes.

rhiannon: 15:01

I love that. And you mentioned getting distracted and I thought I would just call out, we often say separate your ego from your business and other things, but just remember if you don't hear back or you don't get a personalized response with a full breakdown of the reasons that it wasn't right for that publication, do not go underground. Do not, try to say. Or think about it in a way as though if you've pitched somewhere and it's gone nowhere, then you still own that pitch to go somewhere else. I think it's hard not to feel upset if it doesn't come in your favor that very first time.

Jen: 15:35

Exactly. And with the magazines, you are not always going to get a reply. You will probably most of the time get a reply from me. But the magazines are so much more slammed with pictures from so many people and having worked on magazines and newspapers, sometimes you just really don't have time to reply to everyone. So do follow up. But don't follow up so soon that it's annoying because some people do that, they send me a pitch and then no exaggeration the same afternoon I'm just following up this pitch and I think, hang on a minute. I only just read that, I got off a call I read that email and now you're chasing me already and it's just oh, they're annoying delete. And also,

rhiannon: 16:17

I imagine that's pretty evergreen content they're pitching too. It's not like they have to follow up because tomorrow it expires or it's not

Jen: 16:24

relevant. No, it's just and, but that's quite often from PR agencies that should definitely know better, but it, yeah, it does happen. So don't be afraid to be annoying by following up, but just give it a week or two before you do.

rhiannon: 16:37

And what's your advice around, we spoke before about the pictures I was talking about, I can sometimes tell that they're blanket pictures that sometimes it says insert podcast name here. Yeah. What is your advice around, maybe you've got a project, you've had it professionally photographed, you're keen to get it in the media and you just send it out everywhere.

Jen: 16:57

Yeah, don't do that because especially magazines will not want it if it's gone somewhere else. So I will, I would say, whoever is your number one choice that you really want, that you realistically think is going to get it. So if you have a very everyday house and you pitch it to Bell, that's probably, yes, you'd love Bell, but is that going to get in Bell? Probably not. Be realistic about your number one, where would I like this to run? And, say to them, say, look, I haven't sent this anywhere else yet. I would love it to be on interiors addict, for example, but I'd really appreciate if you would let me know if you're not interested, no worries, but then I can pitch it elsewhere. So I think that's a really good way to go about it because often, and this has happened to me on a number of occasions, someone will pitch something and it will be a beautiful project to say, yes. I'll ask my writer, Amy, to interview this person. We'll have the interview, and then a week later when we're about to publish it, they'll say, Oh, I'm really sorry, Home Beautiful have taken it, but they've said it can't go anywhere else first. And I'm like, Are you serious? I've paid someone to write up this story, and now you're telling me I can't do anything with it, and I was going to give you this free publicity? That's really annoying. And now I need another story for next week, and it's just that's where it can go really wrong if you send it to everyone.

rhiannon: 18:22

And it burns bridges for your entire career, because you remember those people you were not going to actually, and they're going to have a second project and a fifth project and a 12th project that's worthy and it's really hard to go back.

Jen: 18:34

And then they'll be like, but you can use it in four months. You're like, do you really think I'm going to use it in four months now? No. Cause I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed. And that's human nature sometimes. And also it feels like the scraps of print media that you've picked up and recycled. Thanks very much for letting me have it online. And also one more point on online versus print, I think, is I absolutely understand that print for many people is the ultimate, you want your project in a magazine. There's something about magazines. And for me, I think that's the key. Like it's opening up, seeing a project. That's a dream for most designers. But think about what you're actually trying to achieve. With your press coverage. And sometimes. If you actually want people to be clicking through to your website. To. Book a e decorating consult, for example, you're much better off having that online because people are going to read the article. They're going to click on the link. They're going to find you. If they see you in the magazine, are they going to then go and Google you and, or are they going to forget, get distracted? So just think about, and I totally get print is really exciting to achieve for your business, but sometimes it's more of a vanity thing than a useful for your business, going to help you make more money thing. But it's, it's not one or the other. You'll, you need to look at that yourself and definitely having, being able to show that you've been in bell home, beautiful, et cetera is also a great thing. It's like a. It's proof that you're good and that you're worthy of being in a magazine. What I guess I would say don't always discount online as being not as good as print because there's a lot of ways online can be more useful from a business perspective.

rhiannon: 20:24

Certainly with my brand, Oleander is hard to remember when you've seen it in a magazine, but very easy to click through to my website. So I can see that. Yes. They're different strategies. I definitely, that whole time you were explaining that I had that picture of that TV commercial with the little kid and the taco ad being like, let's have both. And I was like, you could, there's a place for both. It's just, they're not the same strategy.

Jen: 20:49

Yes, I, yeah, exactly. Very different strategies. But yeah, just don't, I guess don't feel disappointed if you don't ever get the magazine because if you get a few online articles they could be really great for you too.

rhiannon: 21:03

They definitely. Allow you to showcase some thought leadership, to have some opinions, to show what you do. I find in digital where you've been interviewed, the journalist does such a great job of pulling it together in a storytelling fashion. If you have an angle you get support. So if copywriting is not your forte, or if you're feeling concerned because you're like, I've had it professionally photographed, but I don't know how to, just to be clear, you're pitching the angle and you're pitching the story of. What happened in that home, what it was, how it is now and what it is about, whether it's the homeowner, do you have any particular suggestions around angles that stand out or things that you should try to look for when you're matching with your photography to pitch?

Jen: 21:47

Again, I just think to go back to what, providing the specific publication with what they normally do. With interiors addict, obviously I know that best before and afters are always really popular. So for a publication like mine, if you have the before photos taken at the same angle as the after photos, that's awesome. That's always going to be a smart thing to do. If you don't forget to take your before photos, cause again, that is something people forget to do all the time. Take your before photos and then definitely try and get the same angles in the after photos. And even if the publication doesn't use the before photos, you've shown the transformation and you've. With all businesses, we're trying to show how our business can add that value and how better as an interior designer than having this daggy old before kitchen and this amazing after kitchen, even if you're just going to use that on your website, that's still going to be really handy.

rhiannon: 22:46

Yeah, I actually added a before shots area into my client database for onboarding that prompts you to upload. So the image squares are there because so many times I forget and my students forget and you go back. And even if, and as an e designer, sometimes people don't send me their afters for two and a half years. But I can go back into my database file and then go, Oh, wow, I did a good job there. Actually really, I forgot all about, I shouldn't say that publicly. I forgot you, but a long time and a lot of clients and a huge turnover, you do go remind me again, what did I dial into for that virtual consult? That was one hour, three years ago. And then if you have actually uploaded them, I have saved myself so many times of not being able to use the afters. In their best light, because it's all great to have a finished room, but if you don't understand the brief, like people will go, Oh, I wouldn't have chose that rug. It's okay, but are you in a wheelchair like their son? Because he needs that rug to not lift. And there's a reason for it. So sometimes we don't understand the brief and we're quick to judge. Oh, I wouldn't have done that with the curtains, but there's a reason. And so when you upload your before photos into the database, And you make a couple of notes about the client brief and do, fill out all of the things. I think it's quite helpful a few years on when you're going back to go, ah, that's why I did that. Or now I've got everything almost skeleton sketched out to be able to create a brief of the story of what happened and what was the transformation. Cause this is what I got. This is what I saw. This is what I had to consider. And this is what. Claim of it.

Jen: 24:21

Yes. And that just made me think of another tip with coverage is that design publications are not the only publications that designers can be pitching to. So to bear in mind, for example, that maybe your business is a story in itself. Maybe you could be pitching that Maybe you have a, something to say about being a working mom that would be relevant for a different kind of publication, or maybe there's a disability publication that you could be pitching a story to about accessible design and, what can we do? How to create a beautiful home. That's also wheelchair friendly. That's actually a great idea for a story. I'll send you the pictures. Yeah, they could get you a great piece of coverage in something that may not sound very sexy because it's not an interiors publication. But again, there could be a whole load of potential customers reading that. I was about to say that's a client acquisition. I want that. I don't want my house, yeah, maybe I'm in a wheelchair, but I don't want my house to look completely bare and not have personality. Why wouldn't I also want a beautiful home and how can that be done in a practical, accessible way? So just maybe sometimes think a little bit outside of the box that it's not just, interiors and home publications, there could be business publications, there could be all kinds of, different examples.

rhiannon: 25:43

And it loops back to what we were saying before around, one might be more of a vanity piece and the other might be more of a practical piece in terms of client acquisition and thinking about people connecting with the story and wanting to reach out to you and become your next potential client or get that look in their home or do that thing that you, we're always looking to. Showcase like who we are authenticity online. This is a great way to be able to show who you are, what you do and how easy it is to work together. So yeah, some of those ideas are really great. Do you think in terms of, I don't want to say tenure, but I feel like. It holds people back a lot that they don't feel like they have run a business long enough or had enough projects under their belt, or does their experience level matter when it comes to getting public, I don't think it's obligated to getting published.

Jen: 26:40

I don't think at all that it matters how long someone's been in, but I would never, when I got a pitch say, how long have you been doing this? I'd be like, why would you ask that? They would be rude. If I see the photos and they're beautiful, couldn't care less if you started doing this year, or if you've been doing this for 20 years, almost in some ways, if you're banging on about, I've been doing this for 30 years, you might be a bit like, Oh, maybe you're a bit too old school or something like that. So I don't think it matters. I don't even think it needs to come into the discussion. I think that when you're pitching. To a serious publication. Anyway, it's the work that's going to speak for itself. Or if you have a great idea or an opinion on something, or you say to me, I would love to write this opinion piece for you on whatever. And you're like, that's a great idea. My readers would love that. I don't care if you have been doing this for 2 years or 10 years. I really don't think. Other than the fact that we let these things hold us back. And I think especially as women, we do it all the time. We worry, Oh, the imposter syndrome and they're not going to take me seriously or whatever. No, just stop letting those things hold you back. It doesn't matter.

rhiannon: 27:56

To say, when we look at expert opinions, I think we wait for somebody to frame and deliver to us a almost a graduation into you're now an expert. Like we're waiting for permission to call ourselves that expert opinion. Whereas you. You have already studied, you have more knowledge than the person that you're passing in the straight. You have an opinion on that thing. That makes you the expert on it. You don't actually ever get a crown and a ceremony and become an expert.

Jen: 28:25

No, you don't. And, I still find it a bit, when people like you are saying, will you come and speak on my podcast? I'm still a little bit like, really? I've, have I got enough to say about that particular thing, but you just do it anyway.

rhiannon: 28:39

Feel the fear and do it anyway, just say yes, work it

Jen: 28:42

out later. It's all fine. Exactly. And it's not like you're going out there saying, I am the best, better than anyone else. I know more than anyone. And you're just saying I've been doing this for a while. So off the back of my experience, I can talk and my studies, I can talk about this. And yeah don't, we have enough things in life that will make us feel like we're not good enough to do something. Like you just gotta just do it sometimes.

rhiannon: 29:06

And I think the pitch practice is a good thing to think about your whole career doesn't pend on somebody accepting the pitch and taking it forward. So getting more practice just makes you so much more prepared. If you have a media kit, if you have, you'll just continue to grow and learn the more you try these things so that one day when Bell does reach out and you have a particular project, you can be like, Call, send me your email. I'll send you my media pack. This is the usual way that I pitch. I think that we hold ourselves back so much as you said, and then it's go time and you have no experience. You don't, you're in a world, you have no understanding and you don't know what to charge and you don't know how to make it a paid opportunity and you don't know any of the lingo because it's the first time anyone, and they've had to come to you and ask for something. Yeah. I think it's great to go out and actually go, okay, I'm going to just, cut my teeth on this and give it a go.

Jen: 30:00

Definitely. Because this stuff, none of this stuff becomes easier without actually doing it. And the more you do it, the more, the less of a big deal it will become.

rhiannon: 30:10

Yeah. You look at people probably that you admire, or you see them have media opportunities, or, they're on a YouTube clip, or they've Being filmed or whatever. The first time that happens, their whole face is shaking. Yeah. They don't know what to say and they're sweating. They've had to change outfits because they're like, I'm so embarrassed, but I'm so nervous. And I think none of that, everything. Everything in post prod or whatever, like they always talk about, we clean it all up in post production or we will make you sound amazing. We have a journalist to do that. Like you're not doing the writing. You just need the idea and the confidence to say, let me make your job a little bit easier. I really, it would make my day to be in this. And I, it's. It's mutually beneficial as we talked about.

Jen: 30:52

So true. And that's another thing. Sometimes when we're doing a before and after or a project profile, we don't always have the time to do a phone interview with people. So sometimes we send them this questionnaire we have and say, do it in your own time, take your time. And some people also actually just prefer that because they get a bit like, Oh, I don't want to be on the phone live with a journalist. I'm going to sound silly. So I say you, if you prefer do this in your own time by email, then people are like free. I'm not a writer. I'm really worried. And honestly, it's not in our interest to have a badly written piece or a piece where you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. We're going to make you sound good always. So it's definitely not in our interest to make anyone sound like they don't know what they're talking about. So yeah, worry less and just. Give it a shot more.

rhiannon: 31:41

It's really nice to peek behind the curtain and I guess get some understanding about that because I think, I don't know what people think is happening where you work, but I feel like they, they think you are, you in the Devil Wears Prada and you're gonna I know, I do think yell at them or I feel like they're just so terrified to have a go

Jen: 31:58

well as, as well. And people think that media is a lot more exciting and glamorous and busy. Important than it is. And we're all just real people. And it really is nothing like the Devil Wears Prada. So yeah, I think, but I can understand why people are intimidated just because of what society is suggested to us is, the reality of working on a magazine. It makes sense, but it's, a really. Behind the scenes, it's really not all that glamorous.

rhiannon: 32:27

It's a bit like interior design, what you think it's going to be versus the amount of just detail heavy drawings and admin. And we're very rarely on site doing the pretty stuff. It's only photo shoot day, one day per project. Yeah, it's not every day. I wish that was the day every day.

Jen: 32:43

Exactly. And even photoshoot day involves steaming bed linen and, getting dusty and pulling things away from walls for a photo that looks good in a magazine, but doesn't actually translate into real life. Yeah. And having had a few photos, magazine photoshoots done at my house where things, oh my goodness, it's the least glamorous day. The beautiful. End result, it's a busy, tiring day where everyone's hungry and busy and rushing and it's really not until glamorous either.

33:15

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rhiannon: 33:47

We talked about earlier I guess just having any opportunity is better than just having zero opportunity because you're not brave enough to do it. Have you got some examples of some of those smaller things? I just want to be clear. You don't have to have a full house project, a renovated project that's taken two years and you've got 160 high res images in the dropbox link. Talk to me a little bit about if I'm. Pretty in my first one to three years, what kind of things could I reach out for?

Jen: 34:14

You might even have, for example a client that did a really budget kitchen, for example. I love my readers love a budget transformation. So if you have something that's for example, My client didn't have a big budget, but we worked with five grand and we actually managed to, do this, that, and the other, replace certain things. And here's the before and after that's still a great story. It's real. It's relatable. It's authentic. It's within the grasp of the everyday person. And there's a lot more of them out there than there are the people with the money for the. Full house project. So that would be one. You might just pitch, for example I don't know, like something like window furnishings that people don't really understand about. And you could say, Hey, I would love to write something for your readers about five. different window furnishings and why they're good. And you can talk about sheer curtains and you could talk about Roman blinds and shutters and pros and cons of three different options. There's a bit more of

rhiannon: 35:17

an educational piece.

Jen: 35:18

Yeah, think about that too, there's other ways to add value that are not just showing a beautiful project or showing how you did the project. There's other ways to share your expertise. You might be an interior designer. You may not have any professionally photographed. Projects, but you might say. This is the 10 places that I always shop for kids bedroom stuff. And you could always pull

rhiannon: 35:44

together your own flat lay at home and things. So maybe it isn't a professional photo. I was just thinking about for me as an e designer, that remote angle, sometimes the things that you can achieve, like when my clients in Hawaii and I'm in Melbourne, Australia, that's an interesting thing to go, Oh, how do you

Jen: 36:01

Definitely. And also just for one example, one of the most read. And has been for years and it doesn't actually change and it's still relevant and evergreen is about the standard dimensions when designing a kitchen or was it a bathroom we've done both. I think it was the bathroom one that really went off, but yeah, how much space, how big is your average shower or what's the minimum, width your shower cubicle can be. How close can the toilet be to the wall? All these things that people that aren't designers. That's stuff that everyone would be learning in an interior design course, you should know that stuff. So it's basics to you because you know it, but lots of people don't and would like to know it. So try and think about that. And also perhaps think about what are the questions that I'm asked all the time. By my clients, like how big should the rug be? That kind of thing. How high should the art be? And translate that into a story. So for example, Jen, here's the top 10 questions I get asked by my clients and the answers. Great. That's a great story. I'd take that. So yeah. Heaps of other ways that you can get coverage. Yeah, heaps. We

rhiannon: 37:11

could sit here and just go. We could. I

Jen: 37:13

know. This is a great story. I'm going to make a note of these. I'm going to ask people to write them for me. I've written them

rhiannon: 37:19

all down. Yeah. It's yeah, I think we forget that was a great point that you made around what We do with ease. Others cannot do. And so we underestimate because you learned that in module three or in the second term of your first year or whatnot, you think it's irrelevant, or I often talk about, and I don't want to reference this as a fact because I'm not sure I think I saw it on TikTok, but it is when you close your eyes, there are different people see different things. Some people see just darkness. Some people, if you say an apple, they can see like a 2D sketch of an apple. Some people can see like the red color one that you see on. PlaySchool, and some people can see it in complete 3D, turn it around, take a bite out of it in their mind. And interior designers are the biters, the people that could cut it and see what the texture inside and a bit watery and so on. Like we can visualize where the visualizes and our clients are often black 2D or at best PlaySchool red apple, but they cannot do it. Close their eyes and see that full kitchen transformed from a drawing or without a drawing the way that we can. And so just because we can do it since we were little kids with these, our Barbie, play, or Barbie, what was it? Dream house or whatever. We could redesign that just by closing my eyes and see what should the kitchen look like. Because I've been doing that since I was so little, to me, I think that's just not, I don't know, It's it's not a worthy skill or you don't even realize it is such a talent. It's so natural to you. And so when we're explaining or setting our pricing or looking at our worth and things that we provide, sometimes it's as simple as saying, I can see what you can't see.

Jen: 39:01

Definitely. And I, that's been a realization for me recently around writing because writing is something that comes really easily to me and always has done and has been enjoyable to me. And this year I started, I've started working with business owners and a lot of them are interior designers helping them with their writing, doing their writing for them. And. That came from me sitting down and thinking what else, what other services can I offer? What am I good at? What comes easily? And I was like, oh, writing, I could do that for other people. And then once I put it out there, people were like, oh, my God, I hate writing. It's so hard. And it is one of those things that if it's not, doesn't come naturally to you, writing is yeah, Oh, horrible nightmare that you just can't get started on. Yeah we absolutely lose sight of just because it comes easy to us. Doesn't mean that this isn't well, because it comes easy to us. That's why we're good at it. That's why we can charge for it. That's but don't forget that for the majority, it's doesn't come easy.

rhiannon: 40:02

So when you were saying go back to really simple stuff what do you know that they don't know? It's even for me, like, when I have a box of samples arrive in my studio, I always, these are the stories on Instagram that perform the most because before I was an interior designer and I was just interior addicted, and I just really loved them and I was reading and looking at everything. An enthusiast, I call it. Yeah. I was obsessed with little tiny samples of things. I still am. I, it's one of my favorite things about what I do, but that means that for my audience, it's one of the favorite things that they follow me for too. Yeah. They want to see teeny tiny timber samples and they want to see paint if it comes to you in five centimeter by five centimeter, like cardboard. And it's amazing how much content you can bleed out of just opening up things that I'm playing with the samples and making a flat lay and doing the things that I was doing in here. Anyway, for the love of it, but actually sharing is what helps to connect you to your audience.

Jen: 41:00

That's it. And as well as the fact that is a really interesting glimpse behind the scenes into your worlds that the everyday person doesn't. Get into. So yeah, it's visually pleasing, but people also like that content from you because it's giving a behind the scenes and who doesn't love it behind the scenes, especially if it's an industry that seems exciting and glamorous. And even if it isn't a lot of the time.

rhiannon: 41:23

For sure. If I was still an enthusiast, I reckon I would still order the samples because they're free. We're not doing a renovation. I'm like, what's that in the spare room? It's don't look at that. That's my secret. That's my stash. We talked about connecting with journalists or following journalists as a way to see what they're doing, what they're interested in. How do you know when a journalist hang out? How do I find some?

Jen: 41:48

We do it again. It really depends what kind of journalists, because back in the day. We all used to hang out on Twitter as was but I think that, yeah, go hang out where they hang out, which if it's design is probably going to be on Instagram because let's face it. That's where all the visually aesthetic beautiful stuff is. But don't forget about LinkedIn because I think LinkedIn is not at all the only for corporates that it used to be. We always used to think, Oh, LinkedIn's not for designers. People that work in banks and insurance. And, it's actually not there is every kind of person is on LinkedIn now. And I think we're all realizing that there can be a really useful networking platform. Follow these people comment on there. And that's what I mean, like comment on their posts and then when you put up in their inbox, you're like, Oh yeah, they commented on this and they're an interior designer because when they did, I went and had a look at their profile and, it all just comes back around like that.

rhiannon: 42:48

LinkedIn's an interesting one. I think I think it's heavily underestimated and I think that we forget. Certainly the designers who are pitching their work to the ideal client, who's a busy professional, who doesn't have time to do this, where do busy professionals showcase who they are and where they are? Where do busy professionals go if they've got one ability to check a social media today in their office and not on Instagram all day, like a designer or someone like starting out. They're not over here on Pinterest necessarily because they don't have time to pull together the style outcome. So LinkedIn is absolutely where that busy professional might go and check out one or two things. And then you want to be in front of that.

Jen: 43:31

And if you think about it, it might be the app they have on their phone where they have the notifications set up. And maybe they don't have notifications set up on Instagram because they think that's a distracting thing. That's where I go for fun. And in the work day, I'm just going to let. Email and LinkedIn come through. So that's another reason why, you know, yeah, don't underestimate it. I think we're all starting to realize that it's a very different thing that it used to be. But yeah, I really I strongly, and that's from someone that I only really started hanging out on. It's on LinkedIn properly last year, been on there for years, but just very lurking as they say. And no, I found it a very good networking tool having it's worth spending the time. I think.

rhiannon: 44:13

It's such a good one. We talked about finding journalists before, and I think people just sometimes forget to do some really basic stuff, look at the bylines, start to get to know people's names. The editors will always have a hi from the editor at the front and often in like in print media specifically, but also in digital where there are pages for this, you'll often see everybody listed in their contact details. You just have to go looking.

Jen: 44:38

Yeah, definitely. It's often not a hidden thing, it's at the beginning in the magazine who does all the jobs that's always there. But yeah it's often, on an online thing as well. If you go to the contact page, it will say, this is the email for pitches or this is the person for pitches or this is the person for this kind of pitch and this person for another one, they want to get. They want to get the right things coming to them and to not miss them by them going to the wrong person. So everything going into the info ad inbox. Yeah, again, they're trying to direct you to the right person. And at the end of the day, it's up to them whether they delete it or get back to you. They, they want to get it to decide whether or not it's for them or not.

rhiannon: 45:20

Is there anything, any must know tips or anything that I've left out that you think is fundamental in moving forward and taking your business from someone who doesn't double in PR at all, doesn't do anything, isn't published to that next level?

Jen: 45:36

The only, Other thing I would say is that photography is always a worthwhile investment, and I realize that it is an investment. It's a lot of money, especially when you're starting out, but if you have a great project. You'd be crazy not to get it photographed even though it is, expensive because you don't get it photographed. You don't want to go back in six months when they've already wrecked it. The people who are living in it

rhiannon: 46:01

awkward conversation to ask, to come back into their intimate space when they've been living there for six months and could you get a cleaner? Can I come

Jen: 46:08

and pull your whole home apart and put in a load of stuff that looks nicer than what you picked? Just Yeah, if you're ever, on the fence about getting the professional photography, I would definitely get it. Because you've got so much more chance of getting the coverage with beautiful pictures.

rhiannon: 46:25

I think people underestimate too, the cost of paid media and paid production. And so not, we're talking about pitching to get in there for free. So from a small business perspective, but I have sent so many in my former days in marketing, so many sort of post collaboration marketing reports. And like when somebody wanted to market through that business, It's a 35, 000 investment for them to get featured in a very small way. I'm not, I'm saying the numbers that I was working with for the sorts of things I was doing, but people forget that you might be paying for the photography, but you're getting the free exposure, which is actually the investment.

Jen: 47:02

Do you know what, that is such a good point. And Yeah, and even for interiors addict, I'm quite happy to say like people that pay for a paid blog post on interiors addict to paying 3, 600. That's way more than your photography is going to cost you. So if you pay for your photography that costs you, I don't know, 1, 000, 2, 000, quite a bit. That's quite like realistic, but then you get the blog posts that you don't have to pay 3, 600 for, because you've pitched it as a great editorial. Then you could also use those photographs on your own website. You might then be able to pitch just the kitchen to a different publication. So yeah, absolutely. You're almost thinking about spend this money. To to get that free exposure. And it's generally gonna, it's always a risk, but it's probably going to work out cheaper for you to do it that way.

rhiannon: 47:58

It's like girl masks, but it's designer business.

Jen: 48:00

Yeah, that's it. And it's

rhiannon: 48:02

we can do this. We it's going to work. I need, I'm just going to invest, save

Jen: 48:06

me this much. Oh my goodness. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, that's a really good point.

rhiannon: 48:12

I think it's often just that we don't think of it like that because in this world, it's like, what can I, get for free and what am I doing? And I'm bringing you the content and it's yeah, but you're not walking away with nothing. And the exposure and the people that are reading that publication are not your current they're not in your current awareness of your brand. So you're actually like hanging it all up on an awareness piece so that more and more people can come in and discover you and love what you do and hopefully hire you.

Jen: 48:35

Absolutely. Yeah. And in some ways as well, in some ways, I shouldn't say this really for the people that do pay to be on interiors addict, but in terms of an interior designer, people want, people are going to take more notice that you were chosen to be in that magazine than to see that you paid to be in the magazine. That makes sense. Yeah. How do they tell the difference? It should be it should be obvious. If something's paid for, it should say sponsored by, it should say advertorial. Not everyone does, and that's

rhiannon: 49:13

Problematic.

Jen: 49:14

That is problematic and it is not it's not allowed. And on interiors addict if people pay it says at the top sponsored by and the brand. And you can get in a lot of trouble for not being transparent about that stuff. And in magazines it should say advertorial, it doesn't always but it's being a lot more cracked down on. So it Should be obvious.

rhiannon: 49:33

It also feels a little obvious in the copy, like when you're reading it, it's like this feels like a boardroom, maybe informed the content a little bit more than it organically came out in a conversation about that product.

Jen: 49:45

For sure.

rhiannon: 49:46

Yeah. As much as you like to hide it, I reckon you can sometimes spot it from space.

Jen: 49:51

Yeah. People aren't silly.

rhiannon: 49:54

Beautiful. Thank you for joining me today. That was so helpful. I will put in the show notes if anyone would like to reach out and connect. Obviously don't follow for 10 minutes and then pitch. Wait a week. As well as to look at how you help, because one of the ways that I, in our conversation that we had inside the framework that I wasn't aware of is things like helping write your applications for awards and for grants and for things that can sometimes just feel beyond us. As you say, it comes easy to you, but as a business owner and a designer, it does not come easy to me. And I do not want to be pitching with chat, GPT nonsense. So I will pop your link in there so they can check it out. And yeah, thank you for joining me. We'll chat again soon. Been a pleasure. Thank you. Okay. Bye..

50:40

Okay. Now don't all flood Jen's inbox at once, but I hope you got enough out of that just to go. Do you know what? I have at least one angle, one story, one opinion in me. I have a transformation. Some of you will be quite new who listened to this podcast, and maybe you don't have a before and after, but I guarantee you, you have something worthwhile to give this industry. You have something to say. You have a perspective that is absolutely. The amount of digital content that needs to go out in a week and the amount of things that we consume as people who scour the internet for things is outrageous. So please, if you can think of anything, feel free to reach out to Jen. There are some contact details in the show notes. If I can help you in any way, come over to at oleander underscore and underscore Finch, drop into my DMs. I will be your biggest hype girl. I will. Absolutely help you brainstorm those pitches or think about ways that you could present whatever it is that you have slightly running around your head right now. Let's get it polished and get it over to Jem. I have something special for you next Tuesday. I'm looking forward to sharing my solo episode. There's a million things happening in the studio and restructuring the framework. I'm opening it for the very last time on the 29th of May. I have a full day work on your business, on your content, on leveling up, on mentorship, on high res images. I've run a full day event in the M& Co showroom on the 2nd of June. Everything is going on. Come and chat to me about it. Let me know what's going on in your business too. And I will chat to you next Tuesday. Bye for now. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success today's podcast partner was PureFloor. PureFloor is a 100 percent natural plant based formula cleaning product. It uses multi enzymes that continue to work up to 72 hours after you're clean. Up to 72 hours after you clean, it's a soap and chlorine free stain remover and odor remover. I can absolutely attest to this because my father in law rang me in a blind panic last week after he'd spilt hot, dirty, chocolate, milk, all through his beautiful rug. I whipped over there with my Purefloor, we treated the rug and I can tell you there are no milk smells and no remaining stains. So thank you Purefloor for sponsoring Designing Success.