Let's talk Instagram for Interior Designers

Today we’re talking all things Instagram with April from May June Creative. You can find her and her shy girl method here on Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/mayjunecreative/

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Transcript

0:12

Welcome to designing success from study to studio. I'm your host Rhiannon Lee founder of the Oleander and Finch design studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare, took time to write down the step by step framework. So now you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. Today on the podcast, I had the pleasure of interviewing April from May, June creative April works with interior designers specifically on their Instagram strategy and creating reels that really showcase their unique personalities and driver results, it's not about going viral necessarily, but about talking to the right people and converting your Instagram followers into inquiries and leads and Questions and DM conversations. And one thing I really loved, I've had April inside of my container, the framework to work with the designers in there, and we've had some pretty candid conversations, but I do love that she has crafted a methodology called the shy girl method, which really helps, there are so many people that I work with that I know struggle on Instagram because they're not naturally the loudest. And the most like rah, pop the champagne, do the transitions and pop up in bright blue and pink colors. And it's not always very innate to who they are. And when we decide to become interior designers and go out and get our own business, some of us really underestimate the amount of Instagram knowledge that we're going to need and social media strategy and how important Knowing so much of that is. So I thought today's conversation would be really helpful. I think there are probably lots of questions you can tap on the link at the top that says, text me and tell me what you think once you've had a listen. And if you've got any questions for April or I about Instagram, just do that same thing and ask the question. Maybe I can create a little bit of a series cause I know this will be a popular topic. So please enjoy this conversation with April of May, June creative.

April: 2:21

So yeah, I would get frustrated watching other people who do what I do, who would spend, it seemed like hours and hours on Instagram, marketing their business. They were just able to show up way more than me and that frustrated the hell out of me. But then I thought, you know what? There has to be a better way. Then there are other business owners. There are other interior designers that have the same responsibilities that I do outside of business. And there must be a better way to approach this than just like totally sacrificing all other joy in our life. And so that's when I came up with my unique business. Process, which has like totally quality of a quantity. I don't believe you need to be posting like multiple times a day on stories all the time. Like I see people posting 20, 30 stories and I don't see the value in that. Like at some point people drop off, you can, you have to be like an expert marketer to post 30 stories and keep people engaged. Like really, I don't see the value in posting any more than five to 10 in a single day, really. So yeah,

rhiannon: 3:19

it's interesting in terms of that quality piece too, because you get to like the. Fifth, sixth, seventh story. And if there's no strategy and you're just showing up, what happens when you need to drop the good stuff? And you've already burnt the audience on story four, which was just about your toast. And then you've got something about that you really actually are like, Oh, that's right today. I actually would like to talk about this upcoming thing, or I want to start selling my stories or do something. There has to be some science behind it. I feel if you drain that audience, then just not into it by the time they get there

April: 3:52

and drain your own energy as well. That's what I found, especially with stories. Like it, it feels in the moment, like it should be quick and easy and you just take a pic or a video and upload it, but it's an energy expense. And I really feel that there is a time and a place for lifestyle content, which is, If this is your vibe, then, a picture of your breakfast, but it has to, as you said, play into a larger strategy of not just posting because you feel that other people might be interested in your breakfast. There has to be a reason behind every post.

rhiannon: 4:25

And that's where I think the stickers are quite good and things on Instagram too, because if you've got your breakfast, then you need to be like. What's your favorite like again, the toast analogy, but do you have it light, dark, or you've got to get people to vote or to want to tell you something about them. It's reciprocal two way street. And I think people forget, it just feels like so many people show up on Instagram as a mirror to themselves, where it's actually we're trying to connect with the audience and talk to them and hear about them. It's not actually about you.

April: 4:56

Yeah. I think that especially in stories I find that people forget that it is a place to actually start a conversation. And what I see often is the reason people don't know how to use stories is because they don't know their unique point of view to begin with. So they haven't sat down and thought, okay, how am I different to my competitors? If I see one more Instagram post about interior design is an expensive or how to save money on your Renovation, hire an interior designer. Like we've seen that's one perspective, but it's about finding what's my unique take on that and how do I communicate that in stories and how do I engage with my audience within stories and reels and. And things like that. Yeah, I

rhiannon: 5:39

love that. I feel like I'm going to slide off my chair if I see another, why work with, why hire an interior designer? And it's that's the sort of thing that you type into Google. Like people your audience needs to be, it's not that it's patronizing or anything like that. And it is helpful, but so much of what I see a lot of designers doing is definitely talking to other designers or talking inside of the industry or creating content that reinforces ideas and opinions of other designers instead of actually going. I need to cut through deep into the soul of the person I want to work with. Who's the last person I worked with that I loved working with. What were their issues? What were their concerns? What did we talk about in our zoom calls or on site? Write that stuff down. It's gold. Use the exact words that client let's call him. That Sally actually said to you Oh, my husband's, doing my head and he's giving me all this responsibility. And I feel like I'm overwhelmed and I can't lock in my choices. Great. Make something about that. And I think it's just, it's hard because it takes. Time and skill. Like you don't fall into Instagram knowing exactly where your place is. You've got to, it takes years and things change and the goalposts shift and all of the social media, quote unquote, gurus are shouting at you to do something, trending audios and go over here and make sure you're doing this. And ultimately at the crux of it all, interior designers just want to be interior designers. They don't want to be social media experts. So it's, it's a valid frustration for everyone.

April: 7:09

Yeah, totally. And I think that it can be intimidating as well to encourage interior designers to, to come up with these unique perspectives. It's human nature to want to fit in, to not want to get people off side. That's a normal want and desire. We want to fit into our tribe. We want to be accepted, but really what. I teach interior designers is that we really want to uncover your differences and we want to help you stand out and forge these conversations that will attract your ideal people. So I work with an interior designer at the moment, and, there's two things that really help her stand out from the crowd. One is that she just, and this can be controversial, right? This will, Some people will see this. So my some clients and we'll go, Oh, that's not for me. I don't resonate with that. But that's what we want. We want to repel the people that don't agree and attract the people that she really wants to work with. So the line is bland interiors are for bland people. And that, that's controversial. That's not for everybody. But in saying that in, in putting herself out on the edge of the cliff in that way, she's really attracting the people that go, yeah, I totally agree with that. I'm not a bland person. I want an interior design that speaks to who I am as an individual. I absolutely

rhiannon: 8:33

love that. I'm obsessed with it. I can't take it, but I love it. I also think in specifically in the early days, people do not want to rock the boat and potentially offend a potential client. And I think the mind frame or the switch happens when you realize. That potential client who would be offended by that and walk away actually would be someone who you would work with, that you would hire. You would never show the afters on your page. They would absolutely under undermine you, underpay you, under respect you and not always, like that's probably being a bit harsh on people who just don't like the idea that you've called them out as being bland. When you actually go after that Avenue, that is exactly your people. More of them come. So it doesn't matter that you've dropped off the few people that were offended by the bland, more people who love color and pattern clashing and bravery and bold choices actually find you. And that's what people don't realize about meeting and USPS is that's the science behind it. That's what happens. You don't actually lose you grow, but you grow with the right amount of the right type of people.

April: 9:41

Yes, and I think, the thing that I always I'm sure this is like a famous quote or something, but I can't remember who said it, but I always, repeat it to my clients is, when you try to appeal to everybody, you actually appeal to nobody. And that's super important to remember. I have it on a post it note above my computer because it's so true. The minute that you think you can please everybody, you really please nobody.

rhiannon: 10:04

I am laughing because I'm having complete flashbacks of, 2019 me who thought my niche was e design. Babes, that's not a niche. That's just like how you deliver your product. And the more, the more you grow and what you can do, but it's really. I think important, before we even talk about Instagram and strategy and stuff is like that foundational stuff that people, a lot of people organically take off in this industry and they start getting a lot of clients and stuff. And then they don't actually have time to sit back and go, I never strategically decided. Who I was going after or what I was about. I'm growing into that person and I'm discovering more about who she is, but it is never a waste of time. Even now there's so much you can do using AI and asking the right questions to just quickly try to pull some of that. I think the fear can be, I don't know what makes me special. I find it hard to, Objectively looking on me. And this is where in my courses, we do things like peer reviews, but it's you don't have to find your USPs. You just have to talk about things. And there's specific triggers that we're looking for in order to be like, ah, that's something that interests me or that, like pulling that information. Is tricky. It's not easy. It's not like you just sit in a dark room and think about yourself, but there are definitely tools and ways that you can get there and at least get started.

April: 11:25

Yeah, for sure. And one of the questions that I really love to ask interior designers is, think about the last time you were at an industry event or last time you were talking to, a client and you felt like it was like off the record, you were giving a little Insight into the industry. That's the stuff you really want to lean into because the stuff that you're maybe afraid to say, or maybe not afraid to say, because it doesn't really have to be that controversial, right? It can be, as simple as you love color and interior design. That's And you might not have actually said that online, right? You might not have said those words. I don't like beige interiors. I like green kitchens and I don't know, I love things like that. And you may not have actually even said that online yet. So it's finding. The moments in your day to day life where you're having those real conversations, where you're being yourself, where you're really thinking about what makes you tick and write it down, keep a notebook with all of your like random thoughts and eventually you'll start to see, what makes you unique from other interior designers.

rhiannon: 12:33

I

April: 12:33

think one

rhiannon: 12:33

of the challenges that I often see, especially in the course for emerging design is not so much established, but it's the terror of showing up and it's the terror of being vulnerable or showing more of you. I think a lot of people want to hide behind the documentation, the professional stuff. And until we have enough clients to actually go, No, I run a professional process and a professional start to finish. There's all that imposter syndrome wrapped up too. So you're like, I don't really want to come out and show my face and do my thing. Cause I don't even know if I can deliver this amazing experience because I haven't done that many. What is your advice around? Cause I, and I will get into it, but I know that you're developing a bit more support for. Introverted designers and introverted people. What are your thoughts around that? Do they just get over it? I, so many people are showing up inauthentically because they're forcing themselves to show up as they see extroverted people. Yes. What can they do?

April: 13:29

Yeah. So again, I think it's, it is understanding the conversations that you want to have. I deeply believe that you don't need to be on Instagram every single day. I don't believe that you have to have a loud voice. I think you need to have an assured voice. I think that you need to know what you want to say. You don't necessarily have to say it loud or multiple times a day. I also think that, I often see interior designers, this is something I see all the time, is that they'll think that they have to have these large, finished, high end projects, and then they have to hire a professional photographer, and they have to hire, spend 3, 000 on professional videography, and once they do that, then they'll be successful on social media. And that is Pure lies. I think all you need is a phone. I use an iPhone. So I quite often talk about iPhone hacks for creating high quality content, but I use a 20 tripod off Amazon and I film all my content myself. So that I think is really useful for people who can be a little bit more introverted or shy. You don't need a cameraman. You don't need a videographer. You don't need a whole crew of people. They're watching you speak to the camera. You really are just being yourself. And I know that takes practice, right? That doesn't come easily, but I do think that the more that you do it, the more that you see yourself show up, the more confidence you'll build over time and actually showing up and speaking about the things that you're passionate about. Agree. You forget

rhiannon: 15:03

to fear it. Like I've got I've gone back through for different workshops that I've run and I've pulled out stories from like the very first time I did face to camera and you can see my face twitching like that nervous look like someone's about to slap me. Like I'm terrified. And, the early days that were all things like in my car, cause I had two tiny babies and never could show up in my house and my house, my interiors weren't good enough in my eyes. So I just didn't do anything like, Oh my gosh, you could, these days you could just build an AI backdrop. Couldn't you like, you don't actually even have to. Think about it. And I think the second you, yeah, you get six months in and you're like, Oh, I've got something I need to share, or, Oh, I've got something and you forget to fear it. And you're actually just showing up to be like, there's something in my business that my audience needs to know about right now. And I've said this lots of times, but. If I still worked at my previous corporate role in product and marketing and social media is as it is now back then in 2008 or whatever, I would absolutely be charged with as part of my KPIs, growing the business on social media, and I would have no choice and they'd be like, you need to show up, explain the product, talk through, show the marketing collateral, do this, do that. And I would never have doubted it because it would have been an instruction from my CEO and I think. Interior designers need to remember they're their CEOs. They are the advocate for the business. And therefore this is on their job description. Like they're just going to have to, they don't have to show up. As you say, daily, absolutely not. Consistency is not the same as frequency and you can absolutely come and just plan to do a couple of things when it feels comfortable to you and batch it. If you want, or show up just on that day, every single week, and that's enough. But I think that the idea that you just. And I'm still watching designers that I'm working with in my course. And we're about four or five months into their tenure. And I haven't seen their face. I wouldn't know who they are connected to their accounts. And I'm like, we just have to rip the band aid.

April: 17:03

Yes, and I think a lot of this this might be a good time to talk about capacity because what I see often is this cycle with interior designers where they will, they'll get really motivated and they'll say I'm going to set myself a schedule. I'm going to show up on stories every day. And this is normal. I do the same thing. Only 2 weeks ago, I said I'm going to create a close friends list on my stories and I'm going to show up and I'm going to provide all this value. And then I started doing that and I realized very quickly. I do not have the energetic capacity to show up in the way that I thought I was going to be able to, sitting down and looking at the calendar and saying, okay, where are the gaps in my week and what can I produce, not just with the time that I have, but with the energy that I have, because creating social media content, especially something like a reel is like a high energy task. It's not like responding to an email. It's not reconciling your finances or whatever. Whatever the thing is, it really is a high energy task. So it's having a realistic conversation with yourself, looking at the calendar and actually scheduling it in knowing that it's going to take up a large amount of creative energy and making space for it, but I really feel that. Quite often I see interior designers at the KSA, I'm going to post five reels this week, and then they'll do it for two weeks and then disappear for two months. But I would rather see one good quality reel a week or a fortnight than 10 10, 10 reels in a fortnight and then nothing for two months. There's no point in that you're much better off to be realistic about your time and your energy and create a sustainable schedule for what you want to put out in the world.

rhiannon: 18:52

I love that. And when you have that rollercoaster, like your every now and again, it's I have a marketing day where I'm like on fire. The ideas there, everything's there. I get into my notion calendar. I schedule it all in. And it's like a relief. Cause I usually, I will on that day, because I'm feeling it so much, I will come out to the studio regardless. I will be like, I didn't take over. I'm going in. I'm feeling creative and I'll do the three month plan. And then. It's done, but I wait until I'm inspired and then I do it. And you know what, if you do go and you film, as you say, like 14 reels, don't put them out in 14 days. If you've never shown up in that way, put them out in 14 weeks and know that the next quarter you have your reels scheduled to go once a week, and then focus on some of the other things that you can plug and play to give variety to your account. Yeah,

April: 19:42

I'm a big believer that. I'm a creative. I'm not an interior designer. I definitely sit in the marketing space, but interior designers are all creative people. And there is absolutely no way you can show up as your best creative self if you are under intense amounts of pressure for long periods of time. And I know that because that's my world as well. I can't show up as my best creative self. If I'm not sleeping, I can't show up as my best creative self. If I haven't eaten like a good breakfast. And I also can't show up as my best creative self. If I haven't actually allowed time in my schedule to create something that I'm proud of.

rhiannon: 20:24

Yeah. Creation is the effort it takes is so underrated people forget. And also there's a lot of pressure that designers put on themselves to be equally talented in the social media space as they are in the interior design space. And you forget that just because it falls inside of a task that you need to run your own business, doesn't mean you're supposed to hit the ground, excelling at it, the way you would design. It's actually okay to ask for help, or it's okay to feel like, I might need to do like a mini workshop or watch a webinar or like just get on YouTube or reach out and speak to someone who could give me some advice. And I think we're like hard on ourselves generally to be great at something that wasn't in the design course. Right.

April: 21:08

Totally. And look, I think. The reason I ended up working specifically with interior designers, cause there was a couple of years there where I worked with all types of business owners, but I ended up finding that with interior designers they really do basically everybody all possess the skills to be successful on social media. I've worked with people in other industries. Like beauty or wellness. And they don't necessarily have that same eye for aesthetics. So like interior designers already have that skillset. They can already create something beautiful. They can already. Look at something and know whether it's aesthetically at the level that we were, that we need it to be. So that's why I love working with interior designers, because with a little bit of prompting some very simple guidance around how to actually work with the Instagram algorithm rather than against it, they really are all capable of creating something amazing.

rhiannon: 22:04

I'm not going to ask necessarily for your insight on the algorithm because that would date this podcast exponentially because by the time it goes live, the algorithm will have changed. But one thing I probably would ask your opinion on if it is similar to mine in that focusing on and obsessing over the algorithm is really not going to bring you joy, success a positive outcome. I feel like good content performs no matter what is happening in the world of Montserrat and Instagram. What are your thoughts around the algorithm?

April: 22:36

I totally agree with you. And my opinion around this grew from my experience becoming a social media manager. So I landed in this role accidentally. I was working for an interior designer. When COVID hit and lost my job and I had other interior designers in my network saying, Hey, would you manage my social media? So I fell into this this role and I fell in love with it, but it definitely took some time for me to learn the ropes. And I got sick of seeing other people in my industry, giving these like rules around what you can and can't do and shouldn't. And I just thought there's got to be a better way than this. This cannot be I didn't want to give advice like that. So what I started to do was really focus on content instead of focusing on the algorithm. I started focusing on my community and the conversations that I really wanted to lead. And I found that. Regardless of what time you post, regardless of how many hashtags you use, no matter if you use, trending audio does have more of an impact than the other two things that I mentioned. But good content will outperform the algorithm. Every single time. I think there's more value in taking back your nighttimes. Like you don't need to post that reel at 8 PM for it to perform. That's not the thing that's gonna make it viral or not, or give it 2000 views over a hundred views. It's the fact that the content is good. So I'd much rather see you, enjoy time with your family between the hours of five and nine, and then get a good night's sleep and then wake up the next morning, energized and creative. And ready to post that real, that's actually going to connect with people rather than focusing on these like abstract rules that some social media manager created at some point in time.

rhiannon: 24:30

And I absolutely agree with that, but I also think some of that, those rules and things are just. A bit of a grab for them to have a different perspective and going through that role of controversial content in the first place. And I think sometimes we don't see through that or we think, Oh, I'm shadow band, I'm this and that, no, your content just sucks a bit and you can fix it it's okay. And I say that with love, but I do say all this nonsense, like I've been put in the bin by Instagram. Instagram doesn't care about your. 4, 000 follower account enough to be new and not allow you on a public free platform to perform. It wants you to perform when you perform well, Instagram performs well. Instagram can sell ad space. Instagram makes money. Instagram wants you to win. There's no way they are going to be like, let's create something just to F with the minds of business owners all over the country. That's not actually what

April: 25:23

they're

rhiannon: 25:23

doing.

April: 25:24

What I will say about the algorithm. And this is something that I. Experience because I took all of 2022 off my business. I burnt out as a lot of people do in the first couple of years of business. I burnt myself out and I thought, I need to take a whole year off. And that year was great for kind of clarity, but coming back onto the platform it has been hard to gain some traction. Back, but the quickest way to kill your traction or like your rating within the algorithm is to post content that you've rushed that you don't believe in that. Nobody else believes in. And so that's where I think it's really important to not just post like 10 reels a week that haven't really been created with the level of energy that is required. I, I think that. Posting one reel a week that is like so juicy and so good is the best way to increase your visibility within the algorithm.

rhiannon: 26:18

It's so interesting that you say that because I'm constantly saying if you are not obsessed, if you don't love this, if you wouldn't save, share and lick it, then everyone can tell, like everyone knows. Feel the same and I'm totally, I've been guilty of that. I've got, this huge back catalog of educational content and I have three young boys. And sometimes there's so much going on in my life. It's I'm just going to quickly repurpose something from two years ago. And yes, it's still valuable, but you can tell, and I know it and everyone knows it. And I'm like, look, sorry, I don't work for you. I work with you, but I hope, sometimes it's just going to do what I'm going to do. And it's just interesting to read the results and know, and then. I did an activity last week just with some of my students where I've notoriously Fridays bombed for me. Nothing has ever done well on a Friday. Like Fridays are just, it's just not good for my audience or whatever. I send my emails on Fridays. I never post on Instagram because Fridays are just not good. Danger zone for me. I'm like, there's no point. I'm wasting good content on a Friday. Yeah. So to test it, I knew I had a reel that was storytelling. It was, really it had positioning. It was a tale of the worst client I ever worked with. It was, people are going to be like I'm into it. And I was like, I'm just going to post it on a Friday morning randomly. To test if good content doesn't matter when you post it and it performed really well. I think it's like 16, 000 views or whatever, and it like lots and lots of engagement. And I knew that it was a good reel, but I feel like it was great to be able to physically show. See, I took a risk on a Friday, just knowing that this has got all the ingredients of a great. Real and it does actually pay off. So I've proven our theory that it doesn't actually matter. And you don't need to scratch behind your ear three times, turn in the circle and post it in a pirouette in order to make it like the rules.

April: 28:07

Yeah. And I find that's such a huge, certainly for me, like working as a social media manager, I work with multiple clients at the one time and. Realizing that I didn't have to post things at 8 PM with 30, like highly researched hashtags was so exciting to me and so exciting that I can share that with other people, right? Because that takes so much pressure off, really, let's just focus on the people. Let's focus on connecting with our audience rather than following silly little rules.

rhiannon: 28:40

And there's lots of ways that you can save yourself the trauma of burning out and being like overexposed to Instagram as a platform and Instagram running your life instead of you running it as a channel of marketing, like one individual channel. There are so many people that get so wrapped up in what it all looks like and feels like honestly, you can ditch the Canva covers.

April: 29:02

That's an

rhiannon: 29:02

extra 10 minutes to do what? Yes, we're aesthetic people as designers, but really nice content with a good hook or written text over the top of it is absolutely fine. Who goes to Like pages these days and scrolls down and goes into every highlight. I feel like that's very 2021. And now it's just more the Tik TOK generation, things are coming through. People want quick, dirty, actionable. Like they want to know what is the message? What is the point? Let's move on. Like they're actually not hanging around as much as you think they are. They're not looking for your diamond grids. They're not going, Oh, wow. This is really, all of it is Canva. And I do have Canva covers and things, so I'm not going to pretend to but. They're brand templates. They're easy for me. And it's so I can re find my own topics, to be honest. So that when I go back in, I don't have to think what actually was I talking about and watch a hundred reels. I actually need to know the topic and that's why I do it.

April: 29:58

Yeah.

rhiannon: 29:58

But I do think there's so many. Just a single image that you have that's related to what you're talking about. If you, I know people really want to keep it on brand and that's good and cohesion and brand recognition is important, but also if you just need to get something out, you don't have to put it in this highly edited way.

April: 30:16

Yeah. And I think too, like with reels, like when reels first came out. They were a shit show. Like the editing tool didn't work and you couldn't change your covers. But now like I, once a month we'll go back over my reels and update a real cover if I feel that maybe I'm not obsessed with it or it doesn't align with my branding. So that's really That's a really

rhiannon: 30:39

do that activity instead of thinking as you're posting everything. Yeah, I love that.

April: 30:44

Like you can go back and make it more on brand if you feel that's necessary, you definitely don't have to obsess over your grid to begin with.

rhiannon: 30:52

And without being woo or making predictions, like humanizing your brand's never been more important because AI is coming. Fast. And if you're not someone who can show that you're not a bot cause we can all create the representation on Instagram. Like literally right now, I could just put an AI version of me looking face down the camera and talking about what I wanted to do by typing the content I wanted to share. Wow. By the way, my stories are actually me. I promise you that. That's just cause I know how it doesn't mean that's what I'm doing. Look for the face twitches. I'm still doing them. It's actually me. But, People are going to be less and less trusting of that. And if you've got faceless accounts, if you won't show up, if you won't do things, people are going to be like, okay, you plug that into AI and you're not even sitting behind it. So who's coming to my intimate space, my home to help me with my interior design.

April: 31:43

Yeah. That's such a great point. And maybe even something I haven't thought of in, in any depth is like AI and how that's going to impact. Even more the importance of being human and showing up with authenticity in a way that you're willing to say things that a bot wouldn't know, right? A bot doesn't know feelings, a bot doesn't know perspective. So yeah that's a super interesting point.

rhiannon: 32:11

I just feel like in the next, 24 months, we're just going to see such evolution of what, because we know it's there anyway, some of us know how to use it in different ways that it's like, when everybody catches up, those that weren't feeling confident might just make up. A deep fake of themselves on their stories, which is like horrifying. And let's see where we're at. I wanted to talk to you about conversion of potential clients. So one of the biggest challenges that I see is people have an expectation of Instagram as. Basically being their biggest lead generator and the biggest conversion tool that they have in their business in that they have an expectation that by building beautiful tiles and sharing portfolio and sharing what they do on Instagram is going to result in a bunch of DM inquiries and be their main source of clientele. And I'm just not sure that is true for everybody. And I think way too many designers aren't looking at. Multiple channels, multiple opportunities, and then feel really disappointed when they struggle to connect with that potential client. What is your sort of advice around actually using interior design to attract clients and get people? Buzzing in your DMS and actually asking questions.

April: 33:33

Yeah. So my number one tip on that would be it's a two pronged tip, is you need to treat Instagram. Not like a two way street. You need to show up with the intention of giving as much value as you possibly can. So positioning yourself as an education resource, a perspective resource, a place for you to express who you are visually and verbally. Without any expectation of receiving anything back from your audience. The minute you switch that thinking, your audience will pick up on the fact that you're there purely to give, and they're going to love that. The second point is. I believe that, your content is one thing, but it's super important not to forget that your business and your Instagram will be much more powerful if you can use collaborations as a as a tool as well to grow your Instagram. So that would be things like appearing on podcasts doing collab posts with Maybe not with other interior designers, but other accounts that have a similar audience to you, networking events, trade shows, guest speaking, and I think that often I see interior designers forgetting that that they want to become a leader in this space. Space and becoming a leader is much more, it's more than just creating content on Instagram and thinking that people will follow you off the back of that. You have to be willing to be visible and that involves showing up in multiple places. And I don't mean just like showing up on Facebook, showing up on Instagram, showing up on Tik TOK, showing up in real life, host a free workshop. Be willing to put yourself out there and I do believe that, you will be rewarded for that.

rhiannon: 35:26

I agree because not enough people actually are brave enough to do that. I my scheme two years ago or more now, I did it. I used to do lots of same thing, collaborations, live chats with potential like with clients or ex clients or other designers talk about trends. And then I put out something for a free. Online zoom consult. They just had to agree to do it live.

April: 35:53

And

rhiannon: 35:53

it was so it booked out my business for three months. So I did it a full live one. I was so nervous because I was like, Oh my God, other interior designers will be picking this apart. I don't know if I do it well. I don't know if I do it, if I'm even doing it. Doing it right. I've just I was pretty early, maybe about three year mark of my business, but I'd been running it like that for ages. And I'm like, Hey, it's working. I can deliver what I said, but I didn't really want to do it in a public way. But I needed something. We were quiet and I was like, I reckon this will work. I reckon. So I had a nominator friend or nominate yourself. And so they had to tell me about their house, show me pictures so that I could then have a look at who would have. Budget to actually transport. So I actually was able to use it a lot because the person that I gave the free consult to was amazing. She came on, we chatted, she showed me around the house on the live. We, did all of these things. And then I sent her design deck and her shopping list and she executed the design within weeks. And then we had a follow up like series. So it was really amazing. And that's I did that because I was having trouble for the first time in ages with clients, like things were quiet. I was like, Oh, my God, what's going on? It's what can I do? And yeah, it sold it out. And it really did. And I think, I'm not, it's not to burn haunting. It's so that any people listening be like, just do the thing, rip off the bandaid. Don't be afraid. What is the worst thing that could have happened is I went live. What a whole bunch of interior designers are going to DM me and go, you're terrible. Your consult was so basic and I can't believe it. Like they might think it, but what you think of me is none of my business. Like I am, I'm not involved in that conversation that you're having. You need to stop being nasty and get on with growing your own business,

April: 37:38

yeah, exactly.

rhiannon: 37:39

And that fear is hard.

April: 37:41

And other interior designers are not your target audience. You're trying to appeal to clients of interior designers. So yeah, I definitely feel like doing something like you did, offering a free consult, especially for an interior designer, who's maybe just starting out, what an, what a great resource also to, to speak directly to your target audience. They like, there is nothing more valuable in my eyes and having somebody who's your ideal client willing to speak to you. Ask the questions that you need to ask write down their answers and use that to create content to map out the next stages of your business.

rhiannon: 38:19

And now that you have the tools and technology that didn't exist then to make, little clips and share that and, Encourage more people to come and check it out. Like I saved that live and potential clients when I would dial in would sometimes say, Oh, I was a bit on the fence. And then I watched that consult that you did with. Yeah. X. And I suddenly realized that, it's actually not that scary. It's also, it overcame all of those hesitations that client had, which was like, are you going to judge my washing basket? Are you're here, what are you here to do? So it was like listing out all the things that has, that cause people to hesitate to purchase that. Zoom call and then showing them that it is not scary. It was actually just really a positive thing for the business. So if anyone's listening, go forth and do the same, that is a, something that might work for you as well, or do it in a mini way, reels didn't exist then, but now you could actually solve some of the, or showcase that you solve some of those issues or overcome some of those fears that your potential client has in mini, like almost like a series of mini reels that just attack each. Hesitation.

April: 39:24

Totally. I love that idea.

rhiannon: 39:26

I want to talk about content planning and content calendars and, all these buzzwords that people have around strategy and which I'm guilty of saying myself, but I think it can be really terrifying when you're in the early days of working out who you want to be, who you want to speak with and how you want to help. What are your tips around planning content?

April: 39:50

Planning content. I do have a free conversation starter download on my website, so you can go to www.mayjunecreative.com au. And you can download my Conversation Starter Notion dashboard. That's where it's just four questions and it'll help you unearth the things that you wanna actually talk about online. So that's like number one. What do you even wanna talk about? That's the first thing to really figure out. Second of all would be this energy slash calendar management, have a look, and I'm sure you teach this in your courses as well. Looking at the calendar and mapping out the time that you're going to focus on this. The second, the third thing that I would suggest is. Don't just dive straight into filming reels. I think it's super important to, to know what the conversation is that you want to lead when you're going to set aside time in your calendar to do that. And then when you're actually going to film the content. So quite often I see interior designers just like out and about filming here, filming there, just filming everywhere and that I don't think is a good use of your energy. I think that setting aside specific time to film that content is it's going to be better for your mindset and your creativity. And then the fourth thing would be. I think, especially if you're just starting out, don't overcomplicate it. Just keep it simple. It's set yourself. Three goals that you want to achieve a week, whether that's, showing up on stories twice posting one reel and one carousel. I think just really keep it simple and understand that more isn't always more. I truly believe that the quality is more important than the quantity.

rhiannon: 41:39

I love that. I'm laughing your like scheduling reels time or whatever little hot tip for anyone listening. Mine is always my hair appointment at 9am finishes at 1130. And then it's blocked out for reels filming from midday till 530. But and that's once every what, like six weeks or whatever. So I plan what I want to film. So if you're wondering why I always have such No, but like you will notice now that I've said it publicly that, hang on a second. Yeah. Your hair is always done. It's because I batch create and I already know what I want to talk about. And I already know what's coming up for the business and I've sales mapped and I know what's about to happen. So it's. Whether you're feeling it or not, like generally you feeling it, you walk out of the cell and you're like, I've got a little pep in my step and it's okay. And I could do some filming and then I can splice in B roll and other things taken at other times of the month. But that's a little tip from me. I always just do my best. That's when I'm ready. That's right. My last question, I'm going to ask, I really you've sparked my curiosity in your Insta stories, which is, marketing 101, and I really want to hear about your shy girl method and what's going on with that, because as much as I am an. I, what, was it you that had the term? No, I heard it on someone else's what is it? ambiverted, which is you're an extrovert and an introvert. So that is me. Like I like to stay in here. I'm an ambivert because I'm very extroverted with my students. Like I'll help them through, I'll do the thing. But then my favorite thing to do is just sit at home with my boys and watch a Disney film. I'm not like going to be out at every networking thing. So I'm a little balanced and in the middle. And. I would say over 80 percent of the students inside of the framework are introverted and looking for support and looking for help. So I think you're shy. It's shy girl method is

April: 43:28

shy girl method. Yeah. Look my, so I have a business coach and she told me her advice was not to call it the shy girl method. She thought it should be something more along like introverted interior designer method. And that just didn't resonate with me. Like I am to my core, a shy girl. Like I consider myself shy. I'm not overly talkative in like group settings. I have a daughter who is exactly me to a T she's four years old. And I see a lot of the behaviors in her that I had as a child as well. And the shy girl method was developed because for a long time, I felt that being shy or introverted would hold me back from actually achieving my goals. And in time, I realized that it was actually the exact opposite. The more I could lean into the nuances that make me shy or introverted, the more powerful it would be to actually show up online as my authentic self. So part of being a shy girl and my method to content creation is honoring those parts of you. A shy girl. Isn't excessively loud or cringeworthy, as I say, I don't think you need to be that to be successful. I don't believe that, shy girls don't have infinite amounts of energy. I work with other people in this space who and if you're interested I think human design is very interesting. As a, an introvert or a shy girl I'm a projector, which basically means I don't have an infinite energy source. I am not someone that can just set a schedule, show up, and know that I'm going to be creative. It, it sometimes is it's not predictable. I don't know what I'm going to feel creative. And I think that it's really important to honor those parts of ourselves because when we do, we really create space for our best creative selves to come forward. So the shy girl method is about creating a business that doesn't force us to be somebody that we're not really honoring where we're at in our life, in our personal life, in our business life. And not. Not forcing ourselves to do anything that we don't feel aligned to do.

rhiannon: 45:42

And I love it so much. And I love that. I've spoken to so many designers over the years who come to me, year two, year three, and they're like, look, I've done the things I've rattled the pom poms. I've popped champagne. I wore a power suit. I, I pointed my fingers, I wiggled and danced and none of it was me. And I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Like I'm at an, And in past, because I'm like I tried to show up in a way that was just mimicking other people who are getting results and successes, but that probably is aligned to their business model and who they are, but it won't work for you. And. It's also so disconnecting for the client, imagine that you've called up for an initial consult and this person's come over and they're calm and they're, introverted in a way where they're like taking it all in and they're not very talkative because they're actually pulling the scope of work together in their mind and they're coming up with ideas, but they're really serene and I think that's Just gentle, but how you saw them on their reels, it was like, let's go dad. And all of these things it's such a disjointing experience. And we're all about the consumer experience. So I just feel like that's never going to really. Cut through for you. And then you're going to be archiving like a crazy person because you're like, I don't want anyone to even find this and it's okay to find yourself and it's okay to find yourself publicly. That's the other thing. Don't ever be ashamed about the things that you tried that didn't work. Just get on there. And there's stuff like that. I don't, I'm scared to even say scroll all the way down cause someone might, and then I'd be mortified. But

April: 47:21

mine is like

rhiannon: 47:22

insane because there's a trajectory of growth that has to happen. And there's actually like I said earlier, nobody just shows up and falls in and is wow. And at the In the same elk, that's like a reminder to people who are thinking about starting their interior design business. And they actually have basically four months of perfected content. Cause sometimes it's I need to know I've got a plan. I've got all this stuff behind me. My ducks are so in a row that I forgot to start. It's just it's so much happening. And Content and Instagram and all these other things are so fluid that if you over plan, you actually waste 50 percent of that stuff because it's no longer relevant or it's not going to work or the world changes, something happens and you're like, Oh, I had this whole perspective going, but I'm going to get canceled if I say that now, or this isn't, I don't know. I'm just giving you an example, but over preparation is not good. I'm not going to support you in any way better than just getting started.

April: 48:19

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I developed the Shigol method because. Not that I wasted two years like you said before, I'd almost don't want to say scroll back in my Instagram and see the past version of myself because somebody might do it. But also I kind of love looking back and seeing that version of me who, Was just replicating things I'd seen online. I was being the person that I thought I should be, I should be loud. I should be like vibey and engaging. And my color palette has to be like in your face to stand out. So I guess in developing the Chicago method, I want to fast forward those like cringy years for interior designers. I don't want them to feel like they have to do that in order to succeed. You really can, be yourself. And I know I hate even saying that be yourself it's not even just being yourself. It's like finding the little nuggets within your personality that we can leverage to connect with people because that's the part on social media. I think a lot of people miss.

rhiannon: 49:19

Yeah, for

April: 49:19

sure.

rhiannon: 49:20

And like props to you and every other introvert who's just doing the do like, I just think you might cringe about what was there and how that evolution happened, but there are so many who just won't take the first step. So I think for you and others who feel the same or like myself, Myself, I was always going to show up, let's be honest, but you're talking about your four year old daughter and her traits and my eight year old son and is a mirror of me and my traits. And I have a lot of posing photos from when I was four and I was taking the microphone and I was the only one dancing on the dance floor at the weddings. And there was definitely like ambivert maybe, but it tilts extrovert.

April: 49:56

Yeah.

rhiannon: 49:56

And I was always going to show up for the brand, but I think there's probably a lot of people listening who are Just wanting to make it work. And they're willing to do things like having you today on the podcast. That's not a naturally comfortable thing for a shy girl. Like it isn't it's actually I'll do it. It's part of my job. It's going to have a positive effect on the business. So I'm willing to do that. But there's a learning that has to come from that, isn't it? Where you can objectively look at it and go, this is a green light because it will move me forward. And this is a red light because I'm too uncomfortable for this.

April: 50:26

Yeah. And I think too the things that we typically wouldn't be confident in doing feel much more easeful when we are ourselves. I definitely went on podcast two, three years ago and showed up as pretending to be someone I was not. I'm not loud. I'm not I know I'm going to say I'm not talkative, but I'm seeming quite talkative now, but one on one is totally, you have to be, if you don't talk on this, what am I going to do? Just sit here and say nothing. But no, like one on one, I'm totally fine. And I feel extra fine because I truly like really believe in what I'm doing now.

rhiannon: 50:59

Love it for you. I love it for people listening just to be like, it gets easier when you get more targeted, when you understand what you're doing, it does actually ease that pressure. I want to talk to you. I feel like I need to ask this question because people will be like, I listened to this Instagram podcast and I didn't actually get, people are so Hungry for the tips of tell us the tricks to, does it have to be nine seconds? Does it have to be 30 seconds? Is it long form content? Is it short form content? Is it SEO or is it hashtags? Is it keywords? What's your overarching, advice to interior designers listening for practical, actionable ways they can stay on top of those things, but in a way where they can not overwhelm themselves and hear 26 different opinions effectively on what's working.

April: 51:48

So I think that the area that most people will see like real tangible impacts on both the reach and engagement on their reels is to learn some very simple hooks. So these are both visual hooks. So a visual hook is something, when you start to watch a reel it's something that's unique that captures that. The audience's attention right away. So that's a visual hook. It might be something like, walking back from the camera, I'm press play and then I move back from the camera. So that's engaging right away. It's some kind of movement or, I could even just do like a peace sign and then I move away and that's an engaging visual hook. It's also important to learn verbal hooks. So that's the actual words that we use on a real when we first start. I actually have a free hooks download that you can find on my website as well. So you can download that and it's got, I think something like 50 or 60 hooks that you can use in your reels, but not just learning hooks at the beginning of your reels, but understanding that there needs to be hooks throughout. So typically you would want to not just focus on the first Half a second of your reel, but focus on using some kind of visual or audio. Sorry. An audio hook is the sounds that people hear as well. That's like ASMR style noises, like scratching on a desktop or something like that, but

rhiannon: 53:14

clearly I'm not dealing with ASMR is not my jam. I'm like, You're in or you're out, aren't you? That would be an anti hook

April: 53:22

for me. I'd keep an anti hook. Yes. And those are a thing as well. So yeah, understanding that it's not just about the first half a second in your reels, but, every two to three seconds you want to think about, okay what's going to encourage someone to keep watching here? It's not enough to, just use something in the first half a second and think people are going to stick around. One of the most important factors with reels is ensuring that people are watching right through to the very end. So that's actually a stat that you can look for is how long people are actually watching your reels at what point do they drop off and then you can use that information in your next reel, you can think, okay, so at. at second four. And what I love about TikTok is you can see that in more detail. So they'll tell you the exact moment people dropped off. So you can post the same reel that you the same Instagram reel, you can post it to TikTok and then have a look at the stats there. People dropped off at second four. So what happened in sec, or what didn't happen in second four of my reel that people felt the need to just, keep flicking on. So that would be my number one tip. Learn how to use hooks in your reels. And I think you'd see a significant increase in the amount of people that see your content. Love that. Also,

rhiannon: 54:35

one thing that I. Often do and that I teach as well as to say, reverse engineer, what good looks like when you see something and it gets your attention and then you watch it and the text comes up in second one and second three and seconds, and it's taking you on a story and you're going, I'm here. And when you, whenever you find yourself, just cause you're consuming Instagram and you go over to, and suddenly you're reading this really long caption and you're into it and you can hear the music looping and looping. You're going. I, you got me, but I'm like, when I hear that, I'm like, I will save that into an example folder that I have. And every now and again, I will study what does good look like, and it doesn't have to be in my industry. It's often not because I don't want to be like other people who teach interior designers or have group memberships. I want to be nothing like them so that I only attract the people that are a right fit for the Oleander world. Like I don't actually want to be the same. So it's usually things like. A copywriter or a graphic designer or someone also creative, but when I see them do really cool things and they got my attention and then I've over the years, I've actually taught myself to go in and work out. Why is that engaging to me? And then I've gone and explored writing techniques, like positioning or writing techniques that I didn't have the skill at the beginning. I did not know that, but then I'm like storytelling is becoming a big thing. But instead of just randomly Googling, tell me how to storytell. Like I would reverse engineer from a really good. I'm not sure if it's real that I really liked or a really good praise and go how do I do something similar in the interior design space. That's me. And that's not them It's not actually anything like there's it's more like the formula that they've used. What is that formula and how do I get into it and then use it for myself.

April: 56:23

Yeah, I think that is a good a good strategy for kind of learning, like looking at what other people are doing. I would be, Really careful about consuming other interior designers content. I think that naturally, like what I find with my own content is if I'm watching other people in my space and not even intentionally Copying or mirroring or wanting my content to be the same. You might just see a word that you like, and then all of a sudden it's you're using that in your copywriting. And I think that it's super, super important not to consume too much content of other people, like directly who are directly your competitors. Because you want to be unique. You want to use your creativity. And when we consume too much of other people's content that can really impact our ability to come up with unique ideas.

rhiannon: 57:16

Yeah. A hundred percent. The second that I unfollowed muted and got rid of every other course creator who provides courses for interior designers, my content just totally took off. And I'm not saying it's like amazing. I'm just saying it's me. And I don't know if it's the same I used to get myself into a total like wrapped around the idea that I would post something about a particular topic that's relevant to interior designers let's say like increasing your prices, for example, and then another person would do pricing on that day. And I think, I hope she doesn't think that I copied I get myself into this head spiral when it's we only have the same 7 topics, but Because we have this exact same ideal client and there should be crossover absolutely everywhere, or neither of us are doing our job correctly. And so the best thing I did was just get rid of everyone in that space. And I follow interior designers because then I like to bring, use that to bring ideas to my students without them having to do that. Cause I'm not. Even though I take clients, mine are all on referrals and I don't, I'm not actively marketing my design side of my business for the last 18 months. It's just like ticking over one at a time. And that's that.

April: 58:25

But

rhiannon: 58:26

with following other designers. I think everyone thinks that we, because we are an industry, we want to be really supportive and, we want to share and grow. And that is important, but trying things and testing things and finding out results is the point of Instagram. And I would employ you to take a mute for 30 days. So I did this September of last year before I made it like an everyday thing, because I loved it so much that I was like, you're never coming back. I don't need to say it. It's fine. But if you just set yourself a particular month, like August and you go for 30 days in August, everyone who pops up on my feed, who is a designer, I'll just tap on mute. There's a section in your settings. You can go back to everyone. Who's muted and unmute in September, if you want to, but give yourself that 30 days. And I'd love for you to reconnect and let me know how it felt, because I bet it feels a lot less pressure, a lot more you and creatively. You won't feel like you're stepping on any toes because you don't know what others are doing. So you have no, no fear that you're copying because how can you haven't seen it.

April: 59:35

Often when I work with clients, one of the common roadblocks that they run into is feeling, they get stuck in this procrastination of, they've got these ideas and then they execute them, but they don't post them and they really just feel this uncertainty about what to post and often coming off the consumption of Instagram and putting everybody on a pause for a full 30 days is enough to really Spark that creativity back and give you your confidence. Your comparison is a real trap. I know that people say that all the time, but it's really true. And the more you can shelter yourself from that happening, I think that the better off your content will be for sure.

rhiannon: 1:00:13

I cry for all the dead content in this world. I absolutely know what you mean when it's like, they will take it to the point of execution, but not click post in case it doesn't perform. And it's or I've seen reels go up and come down. Yes, like up and down and then you post it again. It's like the time doesn't matter. It's either going to perform and it's actually going to perform worse because you can be seen deleting, editing, deleting, like just let it go. And you can archive it in a week if you really feel like it, but you should just leave everything there because you do not know in six months time, if that is a hot topic and people find it and it gets on the explore page and all of a sudden. That literally does happen. And going viral is my worst nightmare, just as a side, a bit of a side dish there. For those of you who are thinking as interior designers, the point of Reels is to go viral. It so isn't. The point of your reels is to bring new eyes into your world and to showcase what you do, but you don't want 20, 000 eyes overnight, cause none of them will probably go on to purchase anything because they don't have that longevity of relationship with you. Then you do actually want staggered growth. I think that blast of intake would be Oh, I've coached people where they've woken up the day after posting with 10, 000 new followers. And it's what's your strategy? What do you do now? Think about what show me one person who has a standard operating procedure for viral reels. No one. What are you going to do with all these people to immediately identify what they need from you? How will they like, Oh gosh. And good luck just cutting out all the bots and all the nonsense. And then I feel like that's. Not a thing to be aiming for.

April: 1:01:52

Yeah, and I think that's important too it's one thing to go viral, right? And there's a, there's an excitement around, getting a viral post. Yes, the

rhiannon: 1:02:00

content's working. What are we here for? We

April: 1:02:02

want content to work. Exactly. But, I think, like you said the point of Instagram, the point of social media is To connect with our potential clients, to provide value to understand what they need from us. If you wake up with a hundred comments on one reel, that's going to take you all day. Are you prepared for that to connect with all those people? And I recently experienced this myself on threads which I'm really enjoying. It's, a bit like Twitter, you just say things that you're thinking. And I had a post go go viral on there. And I had 80 comments the next morning. And I value my community. If somebody's taken the time to write a comment on my post it's within my value system to respond to them. And that, when I tell you that took me two or three hours, I kid you not. And that's a big energy investment in a post that actually didn't bring me any new clients. I was about

rhiannon: 1:02:55

to say, it's a big energy investment, but the return on that investment is very small. It's thanks for, no one says I'm glad. It helps for aligning with your values, but not much else.

April: 1:03:05

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that's something to be aware of for sure.

rhiannon: 1:03:10

Beautiful. And to wrap it up there, I've really appreciated this conversation. I know so many designers will feel seen whether they're emerging or established designers, as well as hopefully got a few tips to just give themselves grace to be a bit. Imperfect to show up to learn, to have cringeworthy early posts, to not wait, just get it done, get out there. The sooner you start showing up and showing your face, the sooner you, your face stops twitching and you start just needing to share a message and it becomes really comfortable. I know it's been. Very easy for other people to say, and you to go, that's all good for you to say. And I, that will never be me, but it honestly will be because the more you see yourself back on camera, the less you actually care what you look like and how you are, because you get comfortable, you get familiar with seeing that stuff.

April: 1:03:58

Yeah. And you'll build evidence that you do belong in this space. You are a talented interior designer. And nobody can tell you not to be here. So yeah, just keep forging forward, be yourself. Don't hide the parts of you that you think that you should, because they're the parts that will connect you with other people.

rhiannon: 1:04:16

Beautiful. Thank you for today, April. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks. Bye for now.

1:04:20

That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.