Designing Success

According to Canny..

• rhiannon lee

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Thank you for yo...

If you have any questions feel free to ask, I will try to answer as best as I can Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. I won't hold us up too much at the top of today's episode. I'm speaking to Michelle Canney of Michelle Canney Interiors today and we had such a great chat. I don't think Michelle would mind me sharing with you that she listened to an episode of this podcast, one where I specifically called out the difficulties having a neurodivergent diagnosis in our house of my eldest son with autism and what that sort of does from a business sense and she rang me on the phone and she said, Oh my goodness. Like everything about today's podcast. I just want to see if you're okay. I wanted to have a chat to you. And we spoke for an hour and a half. It was so good just to get all that business stuff, all that family stuff. Just like everything networking. And every time you find someone who really gets it, it is just such a gift. So I said, we've got so much to talk about, jump on the podcast. I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about what's happening for you, your renovation and your approach to business and what you've learned over the years that you've been in business. And it's a really good chat. Like many of the interviews, it gets juicier and juicier all the way to the end. So stick around. There's so much you can take from today's chat with Michelle Canney of Michelle Canney interiors. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to get to virtually meet you. Yes, I often reflect that it's a shame. We, We can't get in person with the people that you meet on Instagram very often, decor and design was really good. Quite a few people flew down to Melbourne for that. And I was able to catch up with some Insta friends from Brisbane and other places, but yeah, it's rare, unfortunately. It's a shame. Cause I actually was, I lived in Melbourne for years. I'm just like, I've just met you at a different time, but that's okay. It's like my Victoria is my close to my heart state. And did you run your business in both areas? I did. I started in Victoria. So I started in Melbourne. And but at the time I studied at the international school of color and design. So I, a CD, but they weren't open in Melbourne at the time. So they were only in Sydney. So I did correspondence and then I would sometimes come to Sydney to do if I had to, and for the final things, final presentations and all sorts of things like that. Yeah, it was a totally different, I think it was just a totally different time, to be honest. It just didn't things such as online courses and they were only just starting to gain popularity back then. Looking at that course in New South Wales and thinking, could I bring a six year, six week old baby with me? Have baby will travel. But I was like, yeah, luckily there was some online versions or things that I could. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah. And I ended up falling pregnant midway through that course. When I finished, I was about seven months pregnant. So I remember traveling to Sydney for the final presentations and like the final sort of like awards and things like that. And the graduation, I was very heavily pregnant and it was a very delayed flight and I didn't realize it when I got to got to the airport. call the train to North Sydney and then had to try and, I didn't realise that the school was at the very top of the hill from where the train station was and I couldn't get a taxi. So there was this, very heavily pregnant lady trying to traipse up the up this really steep hill. Are you googling local hospitals? I was yeah, I was on the phone to a friend of mine who I was staying with just going, I don't think I can make it. And he was like, just keep going. But I was thinking, oh man. And then when I got in, I felt like a real hot mess. Like when I actually got in, like super hot, super, like everyone was very, looking very demure I look like I was, I remember as well, I was wearing a Mr. Zimmy dress. And cause it was like baggier and made me feel like cooler. And I felt like I was just this hippo in a muumuu. I was about to say muumuu, it's giving me muumuu so bad. It was, I was wearing a muumuu essentially. So yeah. Now what else can you wear at 37 weeks? Pregnant, but it's basically a garbage bag or a memory, yes, I do not reminisce fondly of, hiking that heavily pregnant anywhere. I see women now and I'm like, you poor thing. Oh my God. It does make me think how well a career in interior design fits with family, though, with pregnancy, with babies, with it's actually, I get a lot of conversations in my DMs or whatnot where people will say to me like, Oh, cause Marley happened in the middle of an already existing business. And the other two were very little when I started. And so babies and birthing and. All of that has all been part of my business journey. And for anyone listening, who's worried, because a lot of the things I get, it's I want to have kids, but I've already started this bit. Do not the business side of things stop you because actually they're very malleable in terms of. You can book an in home consult and you have partners and support, hopefully that can help. And it actually just fits with having kids. I think it's a lenient business model for that. It's interesting actually. Cause when I had my son Angus, I, it was about, I think, I don't know, six, five, six months old, maybe. And that was when I started to, and I still remember this memory. I remember one day he was in his, he was in his high chair and he was eating and he was watching something and I was doing some cleaning and, looking a bit disheveled and I was pretty tired and, but I had all these ideas, like all these ideas for blogs were coming to me, blog posts, cause I really love writing. And then I was like, Oh, okay. And so I would jot things down and I remember I was cleaning the toilet and I was thinking is this all there is? Like we do every time you get the brush out. Am I the only one doing this and is this what my life has become? Yeah, this is, I was, and I was thinking, Oh my God, if this is all there is, I can't do this. This is not who I am. And then I thought, nah, sod this. I'm not doing, I'm not cleaning the toilet anymore. So I sat down at my laptop and Gus was quite happy. He was doing his thing. And I just, all of a sudden, all this creativity just started to spill and, I couldn't stop writing. And that was where my journey started, is I started with a blog. And because my name's Michelle and Canny is my surname, I grew up with heaps of Michelle's, and so everyone used to call me Canny. So my blog originally was According to Canny. And it was just life and design ideas for people who love design, but they, and they had children and they want to know how to make that work. And because that was the space I was in, and I just started to write and write and write. And I didn't think it would really turn into anything to be honest, but then more and more. I got, I gained confidence in approaching brands and saying, Hey, I'd love to feature you. This is who I am. This is what I'd love to feature you and write about in my blog. And they were more than happy for me to feature them, which was great. And I suppose I got exposure that way, but it was also people that started to go. It's great. You'd write about this, but do you offer it as a service? Yeah. How do we work with you? That's what you're like. Those are the nicest DM messages when you're organically starting when you start, it's, I see a lot of people who start now and they're like trying to bring clients, trying to bring clients, but. Like it's really nice when it goes the other way and you just fall into things and people like, where do I, where's the booking button on your website? How do I pay? How do I work with you? That's such a great feeling. It was beautiful actually. It was the funniest thing. I suppose the biggest thing that stopped me in something that is a real hindrance and I see it even now is it was my own mindset at first. Like it was my own Oh, Lack a qualification and therefore fear that you can't take the work or can't do the job, do this. I, I, oh, no, I'm not there for fee for se. Oh no. Oh. I'm not sure. And it was my own hangups. And then eventually it was, again, it was a bit serendipitous the way it all happened. Unfortunately my grandfather passed away and there was a little bit of money that he left me about three grand or something. So not a huge amount, but I decided that. At that point that I was like, okay, I'm going to feel the fear and I'm going to do it anyway. And I'm going to get myself some help. So I don't know how to start this. So how do I start it? Where do I go? So I hired a business coach that I really resonated with who worked with mothers who were wanting to get into business. And she really helped me establish like the foundations of my business, and what to catch those clients who are asking you questions. I haven't made that up yet. Can I get my Yeah. She was great. And it was great. Cause then she helped me like get my website established. And again, it was mainly just me putting things together in WordPress until I could afford to get somebody else to do that. But that was great because it taught me a lot of the backend processes. So it meant that like I could actually do things that I understood how my site was built and things like that. And albeit not all the coding stuff, like breaking knowledge. I was I had a coaching call last week and I was working with a designer and I was telling her about. Something I heard or read, I think I heard it on a podcast or something. And it was around Beyonce knowing how to do everything inside of her empire. So she was setting up for a huge concert and, she's done the big Superbowl. She's done all the things she was saying to the roadies and the crew and whatever that she wanted this to be. Certain type of scaffolding, and then she wanted to be up at this level or whatever, and they're like, it's impossible. You can't do that. She was like, actually, you can. I was at induction. I've done this, I've done that. She knew how to set it all up. She doesn't do that. She doesn't set up scaffolding, but she's this is a cog inside of the wheel of my business. So I understand it to a basic level enough that I know what I can and can't ask. For, and I outsource other people to do it. And I love the analogy so much. It's if Beyonce can understand and be at a induction for scaffolding and, I can learn a bit of basic WordPress and then know what I'm asking is possible and know that, I do like that. And I think. It's really important across a lot of things in your business. You will hopefully begin to scale and you'll begin to outsource and you'll begin to recognize where the opportunity is to have someone take that off your plate because we can't be the Swiss army knife doing everything the time eventually scaling has to happen. But I do love that. It all comes from a place of back in the day, I used to do this myself. So I actually do understand what I'm talking about. Yeah, no, exactly. And I think, like you said, it's good. It is good to start there, because I remember feeling who am I to do this? I remember that, I don't know, that really strong feeling, because I think I was still struggling with my identity back then in terms of I'd gone from working in like a role for the government, which I was always told is you do this, you sit in, you fit into this kind of box. But for me, I knew that wasn't who I was. And so then I was like, okay then how do I Bring my passion to life. Show up as yourself and not just wait for a government institution to tell you what the next protocol is. Yeah, basically. And then I was, and again, it was hard because I don't come from a family of that. I don't come from a family of creative. So it was very hard for me to go, okay who do I go to? That was again, back at the time when things such as. Business coaches and those sorts of mentors were becoming only just starting really, because it was back in like 2012, 13. And at that time, my recollection is I certainly had those sorts of things inside of the family. Infrastructure working in corporate, like those things available to me, all my employer would go out and we do like learning and development weeks in the Hamilton islands or whatever. And we have all these training teams come in. They were third party personal development like companies and stuff, but it was only just taking off. Like it was very unusual unless you were a major CEO or very healthy to have your own one on one private coach. It was like, Like having a private chef. It was a very big thing to have. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. It was very deep. Now everyone has one. Yeah. Yeah. And anyone that doesn't drop into my DMs, I'll send you a flyer. Yeah. So it wasn't a whole new time. And I I found it really hard to navigate at first because I remember feeling like I want to be present, obviously for my son, I want to spend time with him. I'm on mat leave. But I've also got And that was a big focus, massive a majority of my focus. So it was basically whenever he'd be sleeping or, things like that, like little pockets of time is when I would fit in to try and continue creating this. And it wasn't, it took me quite, and I won't lie, it took me quite a while until I could really just step away from my work, my job, and Go into the business full time and terrifying that it was terrifying. And it was so unknown. And I realize, now, like I didn't, there's so many things now, like I see these, the courses that people run and the frameworks and stuff. And I think, oh my goodness, these designers don't understand how lucky they are. It's literally the name of my course. And literally when I think about it, it's I sometimes get What do I want to say? You're a reverse engineer, something. So I want to say like reverse jealousy. Like I'm jealous of them to not have to work it out. I gave you the welcome pack. I gave you the investment guide. I gave you all the little bits of copy that those FAQs come from 600 mistakes and previous clients asking the same question over and over for me to realize. That's the one you need to knock on the head between invoice and start date so that they don't bug you in your inbox. Like those things are all mapped out. I think, Oh, okay. I'm really grateful that we can help them not go through that stuff. But it's like a generation. The next generation comes through and you're like, what? You just get to have AI. Like you didn't have to live without it for all of your life. I do love that. I love the fact that my kids are always like, so what did you do in a car? Like when you were going on like road trips, I'm like, we were bought. Yeah. It was a thing. Autumn existed. I tried to explain to my kids that like Encarta and like the CD ROM encyclopedia or borrowing a single encyclopedia because I had a year 12 exam. I was like where was the internet? And I was like, it wasn't invented yet, darling. Yeah. I used to work actually with all my books around it. The whole kitchen table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I used to have post it notes on everything. And I remember someone saying to me, how do you work? I'm like, there's method to my madness. Just don't touch it. Just don't, yeah. Don't turn the page. And I used to do very long nights of these essay writing. I know. Yeah. And since we were doing things the long way, like I think about those like sunrise, sunset It's turning in a paper, like just at the 11th hour, getting it done and rewriting it when there was nothing wrong with it and all these sorts of things. And yeah, technology is a wonderful thing. My son asked me for an iPad recently, he doesn't have one. And I said no. And he said mom, can I get one when I'm the same age as you were when you got one? And I went, yeah, sure. I was 34. Go nuts. And it was like, why did you have to wait to be 34? I was like, because Steve Jobs had not invented the iPad yet. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I laugh because my son's always but if I have to wait for when you get a phone, when was that? I was like, I was about 18 and it was a brick and There's probably people listening to this podcast. Absolutely horrified as well, because, there's a generation of designers coming through that we'll have these tools. Like I look at, so I'm using a lot of AI, looking at mid journey, looking at pro may I doing a lot of investigating what that how that can support concepts. So I don't think it will ever replace, you should see some of the nonsense that comes out with, the toilets hard up against, The under the shower stream and you're like what's going on here? Whenever you type in coastal, it's covered in stenciled starfish. And you're like, okay, Tanya Tubman, calm down. Like a design that I'm going to ever do. But I love, cause when people say to me, I want a coastal, I want like a modern coastal interior. I'm like, okay there's two things. We're not going to have, there's no, no way in this space. Is there going to be a sign that says go onto the beach? Yeah. Born fishing. And there is not Jails are implied. They are not obvious. Exactly. And I said, and there is not going to be one boat oar to be seen. Done. And if you want that, I'm sorry I'm not the designer for you. I was at a market on the weekend, just a local market here in the Macedon Ranges, and there was a church Trash and treasure store or whatever. And they had these vintage, like antique oars with the wrought iron around the bottom, and they were selling them for 15 for the pair. And I was like you could drive those up to Sorrento and pop them in one of those shops and make 15. A hundred times for people to put them on. And I said to my husband, is this really cheeky? Like for 15 bucks, should I just resell these on marketplace and then donate to the church? Is that half for me, half for you? Yeah. God, that's good. That's a good idea, actually. Yeah. Except I have three car seats in my car, no place for alls. I also don't want to carry them around the market looking like that. That's fair. It's interesting though, isn't it? When I see pieces now at somewhere, they're like, yeah, like I suppose, Trash and Treasure or they've got like a big, where I live, a big recycling centre. For their own old furnishings and things like that there and some of the pieces like you're like oh my god you don't. And you immediately build the room around them you're like this mid century modern like I know the exact architecture and the perfect house for it exists in like Eltham where I grew up. Yeah. I built this story around it and I'm like put the lamps down like you don't need them you're not like. Myself, I'm like, these people don't realize how much this is. They don't understand that this is this isn't Ames. This is a, like what it might be. I just, and my husband's do not buy another chair. I think there's a place for a designer online. Like library, like where you, if you had the storage space to, to pick and buy beautiful pieces. And there are people that do it now, actually, I love some of those accounts. I find them fascinating. I'm obsessed with that stuff. That's, I always really wanted to work a way to use more thrifted and vintage items in my mind. But as an e designer, it's very difficult to electron, like to email you a, You haven't actually hired me to come to the install. So if I rock up with ceramic lamps under my arms and I'm like, this would look amazing. It's weird. That's part of my dream. Actually. I have a bit of a kind of like a like a long term dream and something that I do want to do is travels a really big value of mine. And I think it comes a lot from the fact, both my parents are European. So I've done a lot of travel and I've lived in lots of different countries. And I just, one thing I would absolutely love to do is start to it. Through, thrift and find pieces, source pieces from some of these beautiful places around the world and create really eclectic homes with those and or sell the pieces online or something like I just find that when you can find these pieces that are sourced from around the world, it has, it gives the interior such a different story. Yeah. And it's not mass produced and it's bespoke. And I just love them. Like I'd say probably when people ask me my style, it's a bit of a mix. I like some contemporary things, but I also really love older pieces. So I like a mishmash. I feel like designers get to not just get to a point, but also start this way where they understand curation well, and they understand layers and levels and how you achieve that in a home, which means that we strive for more than basic. So even though, unfortunately, or fortunately, if you just want the bills paid, but the clients will often come with a brief, that's very clear, concise and one layer. And in our minds, we can see Immediately how multiple levels can be employed into that room to globalize it and to make it have character and to bring that curated story into the home. That's what they hire you for and it's great. And you occasionally get clients who really let you test the boundaries, like a push, push them and get that better result. But yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Just when you get those briefs, the difference between a two dimensional Yeah, offer and a three dimensional offer. Like I'm going to be able to really go hard on this one. Yeah. Cause you want to, that's the thing I think as designers, we always seek to achieve our best and we always want the best, but the hard part is just trying to articulate that to the client to get them to see that, I totally respect that there's budgets. I have budgets like I get it. Yes. I want tiles that my husband will not let me have sometimes. That's fine. I had that something that I've come around actually in the way that I've done that for my own renovation at this point is like there was certain tiles that my husband was like, these, these handmade Moroccan ones that he was like, they are so expensive. Michelle's okay. Here's the thing, they are, however, they, if we use them in a small enough space, then where I might be spending a lot on my, like where I'd have to do larger spaces, I'll do a tile that's cheaper. Yeah. Not cheap, but cheaper than what these handmade ones are. Whereas then if I really want to feature some of these really interesting artisan pieces, I'll just do them in a smaller format, like a smaller space. That's exactly what we got to my laundry. Splash back is my favorite thing ever. I'm like, I love you so much. But then in the kitchen, it's like original tiles, which are actually really cool. When we finally do renovate and redo our kitchen, I probably will keep them. They are the original tiles. Like they're like green and they're all different kinds of they're basically like, you will be spending a lot of money for them right now. They're very on trend, but that's just because the time has come back around. People did say like, why didn't you keep this retro? We had a lot of wallpaper, but it made our space look like a cheap Chinese restaurant. And I was like, there is good retro and there is bad. We, our house was a majority bad. So I, and I think as well, it's also keeping in mind that retro can be all good depending on the style of looking. You have to live in that's your house. Because you can paint it avocado and mustard doesn't mean you should. Doesn't mean you should, yeah. And also, It's a, it's like, how far are you willing to take it? So if you're going to do, if you want vintage and vintage is what's going to look like work throughout and, retro space to sit in, they're not even vintage retro. You've got to replace your furniture, you've got a lava lamp and that's just horrendous. But it can be and it can come off really bad or depending if that's your style and that's your vibe and that's the way that you dress that's the you know that's things that you love. I'm not cool enough for a retro house no way like I would just look so out of place. So I was like, I could have kept the purple bathroom, but it just wasn't my jam. It just wasn't what I could achieve. And the bathroom's looking beautiful. I've seen some sneak peeks on sneak peeks on Instagram. Yeah, I think that's so funny that you say that because otherwise you actually feel like you're on a TV or film set. Like it does not connect to your heart and make you feel like you're at home. You close the door and you feel like you're on what is that show? That 70s show. Yeah. It was interesting cause I. There's elements of my home. My home is a 70s build and like I love, for example, like the, I suppose they would be classified as like a copper or antique brass door handles. They're like these triangular handles. And they were the one thing that when I first saw the house, I was like, I love these. And I love the timber doors that they're attached to. Albeit the timber doors are a bit more of a ready kind of a base. That's okay. I'm going to sand them. But I was like, I'm keeping these. I like this. Nod to the retro and to the original home. And if you like something absolutely like just yeah, smash it in there, keep it and and then I thought, but then that's okay because then we can work everything else around that. So all the rest of my fittings and fixtures are antique brass, but they're a modern fixture. So it's like I still love that we've. Connect, we still got these elements that I go and even the, the original staircase and things like that. We didn't replace, we didn't put engineered flooring over that or anything. We kept those and we got them back to the original and matched it in with the rest of our flooring. But this is, there's nods, and it's like an homage to that time. And if you want to peel back the flooring in the kitchen and see linoleum, go nuts. Yeah. I don't wanna live with it, but you could, you can go layer upon layer to the original. That's fine. Like we live with that. We would've live with asbestos. So I'm like, no, it's, it was a no go, but there we go. I think as well. Yeah, like you have to, if you want it, like you said, you don't, you wanna walk into space. Like for me, I wanted to have spaces where I was like, I felt an element of calm. And there was an element of peace, and it tied in with the environment in which I live. I didn't want to go either so modern, or so retro, or so, one side or the other, where then I had to, everything had to follow that path. Because I'm not like that person either. I don't follow a set path really, either. No rules. I'm the same. They're there to break. They're there for me to see a way around them. And that's the same in my designing too. It's yeah. But blue and green do look quite good together. Whatever that saying is. Oh yeah, the blue and green should not be seen. Blue and green? I can't remember. I don't listen to the rules anyway. But my argument to that is hold on, look at nature. Like when you look at the ocean, you see the way the ocean changes from like a blue to a green hue and there's different hues in between. And I'm like, Or even just the seaside in like in, I'm thinking of island or whatever. Like you've got the green all the way to the shore, basically. Like you've got rolling hills that roll into the water. Yeah, exactly. I always say to people that if you're unsure about inspiration, especially for color, look at nature, see what elements work together in nature, and that will give you a good kind of like base. As to how it, cause, cause it's appeasing. And we connect, like we have a certain feeling. So when we go to somewhere like the beach, that's a mixture of like warm colors and cool colors, but they work. And I feel like people are always looking to the rules as well. Like the way that I see them is a bit like statistics. If you need to prove a point, you can find one that. Proves your point, right? If you want to put a particular color palette together, I can find you an example that supports that, or you can just trust yourself and we can get on with it. And, like it's, obviously there are going to be exceptions to that, but it's I would not do this. And, or yeah, a color palette usually isn't 36 colors. So we're going to need to work together to reduce the overwhelm in this room. But Ultimately, most people have a pretty strong idea from their wardrobe, from nature, from somewhere else of what, what works and what will work in the space. And it's just the selections that from there, isn't it? Yeah. I, yeah, I agree. I think it's so interesting. When you were saying like, what will not work, I remember one particular example where I went to a home and it was, every room had a different color. Yay, themes! That was rainbow theme, that was hectic. But what I thought was so interesting was like, that didn't really, I was like okay, I can, that was not my jam, but whatever. But what was funny is they had this amazing room with like high pitched ceilings and they fitted out like an old English pub. So they'd been to the UK and they loved the idea of the old English pub, but the rest of their house was super modern. So they put one in the middle, just ye olde room. Basically, yeah, it was very old. It was a ye olde room. And then it was The carpets were magenta. And all the walls were a mustard. And they were trying to change this ye olde pub with vintage colors and I and it was just so interesting because she said to me the reason why we've got you in is because we want to create this old English pub and this doesn't really work and I'm just thinking, Nope no, it doesn't. And she was like, is it the wall color? And I'm like, no, it's not just the wall color. It's everything. But and then she said, okay, we'll change the wall color then. And I said, but the thing is the carpet is such a strong color that. Irrespective of even if you put a white, like a really plain neutral. You almost need to go really moody eggplant up the wall as well. So having your magenta, like you've got to calm that down or match it or something. Or I just rip it up, yeah, I'll put a match to it or whatever. But yeah, it was just, and she kept, but she couldn't see what I was trying to say. That the colors are so strong that irrespective, you either have to, like you said, match that strength of color. Just fighting for your attention. Everything's like a, yeah. Yeah. Just, and I said to her also, you've got like these really, like old English pubs are quite like low ceilings, Dark and warm and They're warm, they're cosy, they're moody. They're not in a space that has like cathedral ceilings with, and attached to a super modern space. It just doesn't, they don't work together. And it was just such an interesting, it didn't I It didn't proceed anywhere to be honest. That is an interesting brief too, but it was hard. Yeah, and I have these conversations a lot via e design with clients who dial in and want Crowstill, and I'm like, oh cool, so tell me more about where you live, and I'm like. All right. So you're in central Australia, like where's the nearest beach? It just doesn't really make a lot of sense to be covered in red dirt, everything, and then go coastal. Like it's and I just think, it's our responsibility obviously to educate, but I do think a lot of homeowners don't really think outside of the front door. Like they are very much about how they would like to live or what they've seen on three birds or something else looks cool. And they're like, I really want this. But when you're in bushland and other things, there's so many other amazing ways, as you say, reflecting nature in or whatever, or amazing types of styles that you can achieve that feel more relevant. I just feel very strongly that a lot of Oceana in the middle of nowhere near the beach is odd. A lot of Hamptons builds and things, even here in the Macedon Ranges, in the hills and it's it's a pretty, I suppose we could get to St Kilda and see some water, but it's not really a beachy beach kind of place. And yeah, still, you've got your big Hamptons builds and other things that I wonder that's so interesting that you obviously connect to that style, but haven't really considered how that would feel when you walk through the front door and you're thrown into a weird feeling, yeah, it is. A lot of it, as well as, I feel like a lot of people that come to me that they have a lot of excuse me, they get a lot of their influences from like online, which is absolutely fine. But things like Pinterest and Instagram and wherever else. And other countries like the US designers, like there are so many Australian homeowners that I've worked with that just want to achieve an Amber Lewis or a Shane McGee kind of look. And it's there's parts of that. Yeah. That they naturally use materials that work like granite is very popular in the U. S. But it's not as popular here. We don't, I'm not putting dark granite on the bench very often, but every house in the U. S. that I work with, they've got that and they've got the big pot filler and they've got like certain things because of that's how their homes are built. That is so funny you mentioned that because every single time I watch any of those shows, I'm like, This just looks like it's from the 90s, like it doesn't, me, it looks so dated. Because that was big, like early 2000s, using your dark timbers and your dark bench tops and all those sorts of things. They were a choice, but I feel like Australian design has come so far since then and Australian design, Australians renovate and change from what I've seen in the U S clients I've worked with, they like, they pick it. They go all in on the choices, like they make a choice when the home is built, and every other person that goes in there just wants to work with removable things like furniture in order to blend the original choice. They're not as big renovators as we are here, like I've made big time suggestions, and clients in Philadelphia, Louisiana, just looking at me I'm a crazy person to suggest, we're not going to pull that out of the kitchen. And I was like, Oh, we would I'm just, yeah. But then I, interestingly enough, then I work with Europeans and then they're completely different again. So they're a bit more open to these things, but they also want quality. So it's really. It's a really mixed bag, but it is funny, like I got a lot, I get a lot of people I probably haven't noticed as much recently, but I used to get a lot of people who were like, I want the block, I want what's on the block. And I used to have to say, but the block is a purpose built thing. Home. They also get a lot of there's a lot of promotional encouragement to make certain selection. And so they get discounts and things like that. If you that's a collaboration, let's call it what it is. It is a company and absolutely rightfully. So how are they going to afford to do it otherwise? Like it's not a criticism. It's just that if those. Contestants had. Open ability to make choices. They might make some choices differently, but they're actually choosing from particular suppliers. And designers do that. We have our trade suppliers love so it's not a criticism on the blog. Please don't add me. Don't come at me. I am also watching, I watched the Sunday nights. I don't much care for the drama midweek, but I will watch the Sunday nights. And yeah, it's definitely something that. And I've noticed what you're saying as well, that it's less common now than it used to be. Every person that you got on a discovery call with was like, I want this that I saw last Sunday. Absolutely. I used to get it a lot when things such as like cement products were really coming in. I used to get a lot of that, like a lot of people being like, oh, I want, I remember the James Hardy facades and cladding, that kind of stuff. Or more facades. And then there was a time when it was more like, I remember when there was a big push towards I wanna do Venetian plaster on I want, like a TV unit, a floaty TV unit that is cement, and then it has like marble on the top. And I had to say to this couple at the time, the thing is though, you've got really young children, these are really hard edges. It's not to say that you can't have them, but the problem is if we build that's custom built, that's going to be quite expensive, and you have that mounted on your wall, that means you can't change the orientation of the room ever. Like it, it just isn't what it is and so in the end, we came to a solution where it wasn't going to be that, but it had to look like that and same as the wall. They wanted Venetian plaster. They weren't quite sure. They'd seen it on the block. They thought it looked good. And, but they weren't committed. And I was like, you have to be committed again. It's a commitment. It's a financial commitment. Yeah. It's a style commitment. I said to them, what if we did a wallpaper that looks like that? It was a textured wallpaper that had a very similar patina to Venetian plaster, but was not plaster. And at first the husband, I remember it was like wallpaper and I was like, I know. Did you see the Wal the, was it Wal? No. What was it they used? That was the fake T return in the wardrobe. Yeah, I didn't get to see it, but I, to be honest, I've fallen off the bandwagon with the block a bit. I think like you said, I'm not big into the drama and I think I just, my husband has been saying for years, this show is just, it's, I it's not real. A few out of ten, Ad, I just watch it and then think. It was like, it's just not you're never going to build, you like, realistically, you're not going to, you're not going to do a bathroom in a week. You're not going to do, and because he's got that. The sizes of the home, you talk about theme homes. They get better as they go on, but then what about the 12 rooms they did before they were good at it? Older ones that operated in some of the older buildings in Melbourne and stuff. I loved those ones. I loved the character of the place and I knew the places that they were. The Gatwick, I love. Yeah, the Gatwick, sorry. I loved that and because I That was my hood. I lived there for years and I knew it well. And in fact And it was sad seeing it empty such a beautiful building. If you love architecture, you were always like, why isn't anyone doing anything special to that? I know. Funnily enough, I got to go in behind the scenes after the contestants to actually go and see it and elements and stuff, which was really cool. But, and it was great to see what they'd done with the spaces. But yeah it's. People have this impression like, Oh if they can do it on that, then why can't I do it in real life? Yeah, it does make it hard to explain the realities of the subject. 40, 000 is what we're going to need to achieve this kind of bathroom. And they're like, no way they did it for 18. It's they didn't pay for trades. It didn't do this. They didn't like that. They sometimes put the spend down the bottom, I think on the reveal. It's like that spend needs to be carefully considered because it's not what it looks like. No, exactly. Because they're not paying full price for their, their fittings and fiction. And like you said, It's got some great benefits for educating and for people to see even just knowing that something needs to be waterproofed or like seeing some of that behind the scenes, like there's pros and cons, isn't there? I suppose it just depends. Like the hard part is you can't control what people take from it. Yeah. All people take from it is the overall spend and the end look. They're like I can achieve that. Dollars in your life. No, but how many overnights are you prepared to paint for a bad finish? Like how many hallways are you going to get on the ladder with a roller? And it's going to look like crap. They've had a crack too. So you need to remember that. Yeah, we do. We're doing it now and it's huge. Like we, it's, it took us three months just to do the demolition of our place, just ourselves. Like it was, it's enormous. Yeah. And So when you're taking on a real life renovation where you're changing structural elements and like you, you've got, you've got demolition, you might have things like asbestos to contend with, you've got plumbing changes, you've got electrical change, like it's massive. And I'll admit, like even though I've been in the industry a while and I've worked on other projects, we completely underestimated our own home. We Than you can do just because you've also gotta be a family. You've gotta exist, you've got, multiple costs that are involved when something's not livable, for example. Oh, huge. Yeah, we have,'cause we've been paying rent and the mortgage. In a time like now too, it doesn't feel like it's much choice, does it? Oh my God. I sometimes I say to my husband, should we give just of camped. But camping's bought up so much, it doesn't, it's it's about as much as rent. A caravan, just park it out the front of my house. I could park a caravan out the front if I want. For a long time we didn't have a bathroom in the house when we were working, so like the boys would have to go in the bushes and things like that, but, and then we'd just have to go travel to go to the toilet somewhere. Sometimes when people say to me, we really want to renovate I almost, even though it's almost going against the grain of what I do, because obviously, that's my, you want to be helping with that. I want to be helping them. Sometimes I do really have to question and sit with them and go, what Especially when it comes to budget. If there's a budget that I know is not probably going to be quite achievable or realistic in the modern, you know, in the world. They're a better choice to stop and move on and find something else. 100%. I feel like it's my duty of care. To say to them, okay, this is what's going to be involved in terms of, if you're wanting to do a renovation and you're wanting to do a majority of the works, have you considered, how much money you're going to need, like when you're, if you're renting somewhere and then you've also got to pay a mortgage, for example, or living in it, to be honest, it's the, like a lot of it's like the mental toll, like not even things that you're at monetary. I was just about to say, have you factored in the divorce lawyer and the fees and services that you're going to need if you try to undertake this renovation? I don't think in all honesty that my husband and I have ever been into something so hard. I don't think we've ever fought as much as we fought. I don't think we've ever been as stressed as we've been in the last year. I don't think and I'm just being fully transparent because I wish that someone had said to me, do you know what you're willing, what are you willing to sacrifice? Are you sacrificing your health? For the end result. And, we have had a lot of health ailments, unfortunately, the last year my husband was diagnosed with a chronic condition and that made things incredibly hard. So you originally relied on or anticipated that he would be much more on the tools, is that right? Yeah. Definitely. And he's an electrician by trade, but he works full time, but he's a builder as well. So your lights are always, your globes are always out, but you've got married to an electrician. Yeah. Yeah. We have beautiful lights. He didn't agree on them, but I did. Yes. And that may be something that I might be living in this house by myself. The end of this. Yeah. under the beautiful lights. Yeah. There's no one to share them with, but he, we also one of our sons is neurodiverse and has autism, and that has been a huge contention something that we've had to really tread very carefully around, because for him, he's very black and white, so when he saw the first I remember when we first showed him the house when we bought it, he burst into tears because he was like He bought a hovel? I'm not living in that. That's a rat nest. He was like, this is awful. And it's dark. And it's And that wallpaper, I don't care how retro it is really concerning. He was I believe his exact words were, this is hideous. Yes. There is no hiding the fact. And yeah. And I said to him, I totally agree. It is, I can see how you can see that right now, but I promise you it's not gonna look like this forever. And it's been a really hard challenge to get him to see things as they've been progressing and to keep his focus. I suppose hope and vision and what I did was I have a two dimensional it was an app that I found for him where he could actually, so I put in the dimensions of the room and he could drag in the furniture that he wanted to, so he could create almost like a three dimensional. So you could make it 2d or 3d. Yeah. And that was like floor plan. I like this. Yeah. Floor plan. And that was awesome for him because, granted, he did put in, three couches, two TVs and a jungle gym, but I'll leave that. Luckily, he doesn't have the final say on walkways and spatial clearance. He was like, it gave him a sense of excitement and ownership. He was like, Oh, wow this could be my space. Imagine what I could do. And now that, plasterboards on the walls, things are painted, flooring's in, new windows are in and eventually, curtains and things like that. Starting to come together for him as well. Yeah. He's starting to really understand that this is a tactile space of mine that I can make my own. But it was very, it's been very hard because even, Recently, he was like, I don't want to move. And I can imagine that it really adds to the stress that you talked about before your relationship and the renovation and everything, because with autism, there is a real I guess stress in non routine things, like the things that you don't, you can't control. There's no like rhyme or reason you don't know when something's just because you anticipate something's good that you can't say to an autistic child, the kitchen will be done by X. Cause if it isn't done by X, it's like their world falls apart. So it's, it must be so difficult to work with your own timelines, but then also set his expectations so that you don't. Go off rails in that way too, because that routine is not kept. 100%. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think that's probably been one of the biggest stresses is because he was like, you said we would be invited. You said. It gives you that anxiety of I wish I could not say, but then I can't not answer your questions. You have questions about it, but I can't give you a definitive answer, which autistic children are black and white, as you mentioned. And and the renovation is nuanced and grey matter. So it's very hard. I've just been trying to get him where I can't give him exact answers. I talked to him about that. I try and be as honest as I can. And I explained to him that we are working as best we can. And what we try and do is we try and, because our children, I admit, have spent quite a lot of time at this site, because we don't have any parents to look after them. If they can go and play with their friends, that's great. But we can't just, have someone else. Ask them to play dates with you all weekend. Yeah. Not everyone's going to do that. We take them with us and we have we set up a routine at the house. So we go, okay, you guys can go on your tablets or watch TV for we set up a little space in the house and we were like, okay, you can do it for X amount of time. And then from there you can go play. And we, one of us, I, normally me, I'll go for a bit of a walk in the bush with them, which is in the back, backs out onto our house. And we found like a tire swing one day. So we went and, we go play down there we just try the best we can do when you don't have that support around you. And, I definitely my husband is so handy and would love to do something like that. Like we've talked in the past about, investing looking, whether something is like an Airbnb or a quick flip and sell or whatever. It's all very different now, from a development perspective, but. It doesn't mean he can't look and dream and think, Oh, and I know that he would work so hard, but then we just wouldn't see him like, cause I can't bring the kids. It's not feasible. We have the exact same issues with our son being autistic as well. And then being like, he won't understand. And it's just a lot. And I think I don't even need you to sit me down and tell me I'm like, I'm out. I don't want to do that. Anyone who just is ever thinking about it, and they're not sure, just come to my house and we can see. And you know what, you might think totally different if we had this conversation in 12 months time again as a like catch up. You'd be like, let me show you around and you'd be so obsessed with what you've done and how you've Oh yeah, I'm very proud. I'm very proud and I can see like The end line now, the finish line. It's put together, reels and videos about, because I've documented the whole process throughout, but it's, I think, because we're still in the thick of it, we're getting closer and we're hoping to move in soon, even knowing that we're like, yeah, we'll move in. Okay the laundry's not completely finished. Oh okay. That's okay. That's another, as in it's tile and all the rest of it. Yeah. I could live in it like that, but then it's will it ever have handles on the cabinetry? I don't know. That's what I mean. It's things like that, that I'm a little bit like, and my husband was like, you're going do this, aren't you? Yeah. And then we've got Details matter to us as designers. We see that every day and you're in the laundry, knowing the design isn't complete and you wouldn't leave a client like that. So you just get this like frustration. It does do my head in and we've had a lot of setbacks as well because, you get trades in for certain works and you, unfortunately, you can't control, they've been great. Don't get me wrong, but you can't control the caliber of work. You can't control if they're going to show up when they say they're going to show up. You can't control if mistakes happen on site. You can't, you just can't. I think one of the biggest lessons that I have learned in the last year is that. You have to have a level of just, resignation of not resignation, not the word of letting go. That's a common thing that I talk about in group coaching specifically around cause I think all designers are very naturally they like to have control of things like, when it comes time to scale and we talk about outsourcing, it's one of the most difficult things that women do in their business is ask for help because we're not naturally good at that. And secondly, is to release some of that control and be like, I need to trust that you will be able to do this and report back to me. There's always still these control. Mechanisms that we keep in place. Like I will be like, okay why don't you get your staff to report back to you for quality checking before it goes out to the client? So then you're not doing the work, but you're across all of the work and you can be involved in all of the work. And we still need an element of that because there's, There's releasing a bit of control or resignation, and then there's like totally unaware of what's happening under your brand name. And I can see why that we still feel that push pull and that need to be across it all. But yeah, there is certain times, and this sounds definitely like an example of that, where you have to go control I might, and as much as I may try to control it, all I'm going to do is get annoyed at the fact that it isn't going my way, because I'm actually not in control. And We're in control of it as much as we do. And, but there's still setbacks that we can't. For example, someone didn't, the kitchen, one of the kitchen companies, they didn't put the right handles on. And so they've drilled holes throughout the cabinetry and it's wrong. So you have to have those handles. And so it's ah, okay. The panel wasn't sprayed properly. So then that had to get redone. There's things that you just, you can't, there's just elements where that's why I always say to clients, whenever we're talking about budgets and timeframes, I'm always like, Allow for a longer time frame than what you expected because inevitably there will always be mistakes, and this is even in my welcome pack. I give people a bit of a preemptive, just things to be mindful of. And knowing that we are working our best to resolve or rectify. And to meet your time frames and budgets, look, once upon a time, I used to try and say to people allow 20% All the new overall budget. In fact, now I'd probably say something more I don't know, bloody probably like 50%, but maybe not 50%. That's a lot, but it is there. There are just so many, just because the cost of materials and things have gone up so much and the cost of trade. So yeah. You do not control that. You cannot control it, so it's, there's things that, you don't want to be in for that rude shock when you get that, when you realize, oh gosh, I've got to, I don't know, for example, maybe you find out there's more asbestos than what you allowed for, and you've got to get that removed, and that's quite expensive now, or you may have to, even trade costs, tiling, I found, has gone up exponentially, because Where you might have paid, say, anywhere between 90 to 120 a square metre for them to lay, that's anywhere up to 250 a square metre. It just depends on them. Because there is no So It's interesting that you mentioned that because I think one great point that you've made is around managing expectations and I think anything is possible as long as they're aware of the probability or possibility of it. And when we see problems is often with the merging designers who don't know to say yeah, we're going to order the tile. Don't forget you need 15 percent breakage. And the same goes for like the whole project, really. I also see with emerging designers, a massive panic that something might go wrong. I have a little heartbreaking notification for you. Something will go wrong, right? So our job is actually about liaising problem solving. Like part of the reason that people hire an interior designer is that the designer is often able to work with the contractors, with the homeowners, see the end result, achieve the style outcome by problem shooting and troubleshooting all the way through the project. And so this. Fear that emerging designers have about something might go wrong is completely unfounded. Something should go wrong or the project isn't really a project. If nothing happens. Then nothing happens. Have you ever had a job that just like smooth satellite that some are better than others, obviously, but there is a portion of your job as a designer that is really just about project management and making sure that it's a problem and not a disaster and that it can like, and then just feeding back to the home and it's the three different choices they have to rectify the issue. Throw more money at it, change it, rip it out and start again. It's usually very similar kinds of changes. Some will cost, some won't cost, and it's just, Yeah. Managing their expectations and constantly communicating. Our job is very much so much more communication and problem solving. Then I think people that is on the brochure, like you think you're just going to be at home playing the sketch up. It's not that. No, it's not. I think a lot of the time, like I can't really, I can't, to be honest, I can't think of one job that's probably gone on exactly to plan and in saying that it's not meant that those jobs have gone terribly wrong. It's not disasters. It's just fires and coffee table doesn't show up or something. You've got to Or it shows up damaged and it just has to go back and a new one has to come. Yeah. You have to deal with that and deal with their like reaction to that and present the options and then wait for the fresh one to come. Something I've been doing a lot of work in actually as part of my communication style is emotional intelligence work. What I've found is that everyone responds to things differently. We all react to things differently, just dependent on what our previous experience is. So every client I have is completely different. They're coming towards, they're coming at a project from a completely different angle to maybe what I am. And an exam recently was where a client and the builder really didn't see eye to eye. The client couldn't understand why the builder's costs were the way his costs were. Because, to her, That's just a, she would say things like, that's just a simple thing. That's just, how do you know when was the last time you friends in the house? That was the thing. And I said to her, but the problem is when you say that, that's actually quite demeaning to him. That's when we get discovery calls and you get, I just need a couple of finishing touches. And by the time you've written the scope down, you're like, this is a 15, 000 quote. And it's not just a few things you've tried to minimize it. If the budget will reflect your. And it is that language is really important. A simple thing. It's just a tiny change. It's just a, I just need a little favor. It's no, this is all part of his job. And that is, not helping. No. So it is, it's a massive thing about the language. And I did say that to her. I said, the language that you use is making him feel like undervalued and yeah, valued. It's making him feel that you don't respect what he does. And, and these sorts of things are not the way in which you want a job to go smoothly. We all want the same outcome. We all want you to get, you got to pour a little sugar on it. You got to make them feel very special. And like they're working so hard. That was challenging because I was having, I was getting calls from the builder late in the evening saying, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm getting calls from the client. And again, really, this should have been between the two of them. As a designer, you do often become the conduit. Like you said before, you become the conduit between the contractors, maybe the trades, the builders, the client. Unintentionally, because that's not in the scope and you don't really want to, cause you're like, this is outside of what I'm getting paid. And it's yeah. And it's the same with homeowners as well. You mentioned like people coming with different emotions to problems and whatnot. Some people come in swinging, they come in roaring and then they calm down and realize that it's just tapware and they've been a bit sick. Silly, but they're in the middle of the most stressful thing. You've experienced it yourself. When I worked in travel, I would get phone calls, abusive phone calls from people at the airport that have been nothing but lovely through the booking process. And then they're just so stressed out at the airport that like. They think their ticket's not valid or something's happened. And they've ripped like a new one over the phone and aggressive and then gotten to the Greek islands or whatever and I bought a drink and sat down and. immediately typed out an email of apology being like, you did not, that was not okay. I think we have to really remember that with our homeowners and stuff, they're going through the most financially difficult time and the biggest stress of their life as well. And they often don't intend to be so aggressive or abrasive. No. Oh, absolutely. No, definitely. Definitely. And sometimes it's just a matter of sometimes when people are explaining things to me and I can tell there's a level of emotion to it, I just let them speak, because they need to hear, they need to be able to feel heard and validated. Then from there, we can start to work backwards. We can start to pick things apart and go, okay. So I understand that this is a super stressful, situation for you guys. So what are the key things that you want to get done, now? What are the key things that we need to focus on? What's the priority? Yeah, what's the priority? Let's just start to chunk it, into pieces. And that's easier said than done because I know myself, if I'm feeling in a super heightened state, it's hard. You are, you are sometimes overrun with emotion. And it's hard as well. Like again, and not to just bring it back to emerging designers, but I do coach a lot of people. And this is something that I learned early in my career. Working on the phones and working with customer service and understanding, like you never speak until that person has finished and then use their name. You reinforce that you've heard what, and you say it all back to you, paraphrase everything they told you. So they know that you understand the issue to its core, not just putting them to, to bed and being like, that's fine, I'll sort it out. And then from there you start escalating or. Working out a problem working out a solution. And I think a lot of us start a business and we don't have that experience. And, maybe you haven't worked with the general public before you could have just very easily been in a role or in a previous job that was just, you might've owned your own business beforehand, but just in a different industry. And it's all education, isn't it? It takes a little bit of time and practice. Oh, a hundred percent. Oh, it's taken. Even really setting, learning to set boundaries is so underrated in this industry. The first five years, almost the first five years is like the fifth year. I think you're setting them and you're still answering the phone. Oh gosh. It's. Even in the last, I would be honest and say, even in the last year, I have done more work around boundaries than I've probably done in my entire career. And that's because I didn't, to be honest. And a lot of it comes back to what you grew up with grew up in a home, say for example, you grew up as a people pleaser setting. We were taught to now I see so many people raising their daughters to be fearless and you can tell people you can be as rude as you like for your own sanity. Like they're being raised in a different way. That's it's okay to tell a stranger to F off. We were not, we were spoken to and what is it? Children should be heard and not. But you were seen, but unheard. Yeah. I was like, what was that phrase that they always told us to do? But it was go away. It was never like, have a voice, have an opinion, you would not answer back. It's a whole different thing. And in doing that, then some of us that are. From that generation, that's not a skill set that anyone ever taught us that we could say no is a complete sentence. That's like something our kids are being raised to understand. Consent is even something that is a newer idea when it comes to, we were just, you answer the question when the question comes in, because you are the person that does the thing that is requested of you by another person. And that is just. So horrendously toxic. That's bad. Massive. It's and the thing that I find so interesting is you can go to design school, you can get, all the qualifications you want, but if you don't actually work on things such as your mindset, potentially understanding things like, things that are triggers for you, things like your worthiness, whether you're a people pleaser, like all these And the money stuff, like the money stuff is massive, the stories that you have, like it is not, I'm not woo woo, I'm not the coach for you if you're looking for woo woo, but I do definitely believe that your exposure, the way that your family's financial literacy and the things that you have grown up thinking or knowing about the kind of wealth you can or cannot have, affects the kind of wealth you do and do not have? Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's all tied to like money mindset and things like that. Like I'll admit for me, it was very hard at the start because I was always used to working in jobs. The way I was raised was Send me the, where's the standard operating procedure? I'll follow that. You don't get one for your own business unless you write it. And I worked for government agencies because my parents were very much, you work in government, you work hard, you work your way up the ladder. You retire by this age, you get your pension, you get your super, you invest, you do all these things. It's not a crazy idea. It's just not for everyone. Not at all. But the hardest part for me I found was when I decided to step away from that model and when I decided to because I realized that I was like this round peg trying to fit into a square hole or the other way around, whatever it is, but I don't think it matters either way. It doesn't work. It didn't work. And what I didn't understand, what I didn't understand is once I started my business, it was very hard for me to equate, my worth with my work, what I should be charging versus what I, for the, the amount that I was doing and the actual professional work that I was doing for people versus what I thought I was worth. That has taken me quite some time to really come to terms with and understand, and even to feel okay with raising my prices where it is warrant, where it makes sense. And you're like, how is my worth raising though? What am I doing different? But you don't actually have to prove that because you're six months more experienced than the person who set those rates before, and you've got six months more demand and you've got more interesting projects and you, there's a lot of reasons why you justify that raise without anything changing internally. You're still delivering the same stuff, but it's actually okay. And something I say very interestingly, like when clients say to me, Oh, that seems a bit expensive. I often say to them have you done any research to find out how much other designers are? Because I'll assure you if you have, it is certainly not as expensive as what you think. And, other times where people maybe might barter about a cost, I often, maybe rightly or wrongly I'm like do you go and barter with a doctor when you go and see them? You don't do you because you don't, you're not bartering with them because you know that you're going to them because they are a professional, they have done years of training, they've got years of experience. And I won't lie, the thing that pisses me off the most is that you literally just pay the electrician's invoice. Never in your life, the contractor, the other contractors in this project, you don't genuinely. Generally question their invoices, you just go I can't fit the lot. I can't fit the plumbing or I can't do anything. Can I? So I obviously just have to pay this, but you also can't do this. By the way, your house would not look this good without me. Like you kept it. But you have no idea what you're doing. So I do think we get questioned all the time and asked to justify that value. And that's how it becomes. That's why the mindset stuff's really important because you answer this question and not many other careers. You actually have to re define your worth and. Explain why that fee is that fee with almost every scope of work and fee proposal that goes out. There's a part of it is justifying those fees and it pisses me off no end. I've got a whole post like designers stop justifying your fees. The electrician is not justifying it. You don't have to do that. You have to remind people that it's rude for them to ask, re educate to be like Are you asking your plumber the same questions as everyone else on site? Are they having to explain to you why the skill set that they bring to the site is worth the fee that you pay? Because I think there's such an education piece that we need to do collectively just around that. And I'm going to put it back on the industry as well. You keep everything so secret. You create this nest, this secret little wasp nest, and you create an Anticipated cost that you losing clients because people think it's too expensive to work with the designer because they don't have any transparency around what it actually costs to do the job. You create so much problems. If you could be more open with your pricing across the industry, everyone, I am not, whoever's listening to this and I'm plugged into your ear, not having a go at you specifically. I'm just saying we are so secretive that we don't do ourselves any favors because then there is no expectation of what a designer costs and you look like Your particular fee proposal is is on the side of expensive when it actually isn't the client has no working reference as to what it costs to work with an interior designer. And that's a problem. That's an industry wide problem. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's a hard one as well, because you can't control like, again, when it comes back to YouTube rooms at the same, you can't actually just put your pricing out there and go, Hey, I'm this much per hour, work it out yourself. It's very tough. Like I'm not, again, having a go at it. I just think they just really, that's why in my discovery calls, there's always what is your expectation around the service fees for the designer fees above and beyond the budget that you put aside for the furniture? What's your expectation? Because if they then come back to me and go, Oh, look, cause they never want to give you a number, right? They don't want to look anything down in case you go, Oh, what's this? You say 40, 000. Okay. I'm 39, nine, nine, nine. Yeah. But like, When you do ask that question, if they are able and you're like just ballpark, obviously I haven't even seen the room. Nothing's been proposed yet in terms of the fees. That is a great answer to hear them say, Oh, I don't know about one or 2, 000. And you're like, okay, I'm just going to pull you up right there. This is a full kitchen, full bathroom, like la. And these are, this would be like the minimum that scope will come out at will be five figures. So we need to, do we proceed or do we not proceed? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it gets missed a lot, that question, because where I'm going to go back to money mindset, but also money attitudes, Australian, it is still very taboo to talk about money. Yeah, absolutely. The culture. A lot of people have a fear. They feel very, I must, it's a one, it's probably the biggest question I find that where people find it the most uncomfortable. Whenever I ask it, and I always say to people, I'm not asking this from a point of view because I want to know personally, it's because I need to know whether you're accepting. It's my job to control it for you and to keep it. How realistic. Yeah, and also being able to say to them I don't want you to fall in love with something that you can't, Execute, like I could put this beautiful Jardin sofa into your living room, but it's 12, 000 to look at it. You might be a family that has budgeted around 2, 500 and I need to know that to know which retailers to even investigate. I've got layers and levels and I can work to any budget, but if you won't share that with me, I can't control it for you. And then all I'm actually creating is a wish and a wish mood board. Yeah. That'd be yours. You won't find, and you'll be in love with this over, you'll never find a budget version. Yeah, no, it's very true. It's it's a weird thing. Cause I've always found the whole pricing thing really weird because people are like, don't put it on your site, be transparent. And then other people like no, don't put it on your site. That's not for other, because it's all dependent on experience and knowledge and all these things. And then it's the hardest part as well is you can't control what. Maybe other designers are charging. So they might be charging, a lot less, but that also come back. A lot of that comes down to, like you say, experience and whether they feel comfortable charging more, a lot of people don't. So then it's like a lot of, clients are then looking at you like hold on a minute. Why is this such a disparate space? And almost everybody comes into the industry wanting to be the one designer who brings affordability to interior design. But eventually you have to understand that people don't want cheap. They want to feel like they are up with the Joneses, able to have an interior designer. We're like personal stylist or wardrobe, like not everybody has them, but if you have them, you better believe you're at school drop off going, Oh, I'm going to be late for my Oh, I'm going to be late to meet the designer. Everyone wants that experience and it's a luxury experience and it costs a certain price point to tip you into it so that you feel like you're part of that gang. It's all about like I try and what I try and do is I try and say to clients, okay, if you've got X amount of budget, this is what we can do. Maybe instead of X and it's my job, I find to educate them, but don't mistake affordability with cheap. Correct. Because you can work with them on just a 90 minute session and give them amazing ideas for outcomes that they can go on to achieve. Like everybody can afford to work with an interior designer. It's just like at what, like for how long and yeah, what do you do? It's not cheap. Like you say, it's just a session and, and that is designed for people who maybe can't afford to engage me for an entire project, but they need some ideas. They want to run it past a professional. They want some guidance. That's absolutely fine. No problems. And I think that, but what I find is as well, if you buy cheap, if you try and spend I always say to people, spend your money on the things that you're going to use the most, that are going to have, that you, that are going to be maybe how you want the most longevity out of, for example, like the kitchen, somewhere you use everything. It's the same sensibility of invest in your mattress. You sleep in it for the 24 hour day. You're lucky if you don't have children, but you're in the bed. So why are we going with the cheap mattress? That's where you invest in your linens, make it as a luxury because it's half of your life is spent in there. Yeah, a hundred percent. So then it's if you buy cheap, you will end up buying twice. Because it'll either break, wear, not be done properly. You won't truly love it. I was about to say, oh, you just keep side eyeing it. Like I know that you're 69. 95 and there was a like option that I was obsessed with that was 220 and I just couldn't or wouldn't put out for it. A lot of it. And that is an interesting point. Couldn't or wouldn't. What do you value? Yeah, like often people will say to me, Oh that seems a bit pricey. I'm like, but the thing is you're coming to me saying that you want to build your forever home and you want it to look a certain way. And this is going to be, you're not moving anywhere. You want this to represent. Your family, your lifestyle, blah, blah, blah. And then, but then you're questioning, I don't know, for example, like a tile choice or something like that might be the difference of 50 bucks between a really high end one to. And if you don't do it right in the beginning, you're going to call me back and you have to pay my fee again. That's what I'm always like what do you value? If you value that this is going to be your forever home, you wanted to have a certain look and feel and you want to feel a certain way in the space. Why are you pinching pennies on, for example, the fit out, you could change, you can change your decor. You can those sorts of things. You can definitely shop around. We can shop around. We can fit within a particular budget to achieve a certain look. But in terms of the overall real foundations of a home. Why are we splitting hairs on this? I wonder if it comes back down to that control or just being able to feel like you have, yeah again, their mindset falling back into sensibilities, falling back into past behaviors. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of it is if you don't know, again, you don't know what people's background or feelings are towards certain things like money, and I find it interesting because then they might, not value things like. The difference in cost, but then they might go and spend 50 bucks on a bottle of wine. Or they might go and spend over 200 on a night out. Or whatever on it, going out for dinner or whatever, but it's I just find it so interesting that there's things that I look at now, even for myself, because as I said, I have a budget as well for my own renovation. I wish I had an endless budget. I know, it'd be nice if we were like the dream client. Just feel good. What I have done though, Is I've thought about, okay, how do I want the space to look and feel? Where have I had to make sacrifices? For example, maybe, I might've wanted to, something that I truly love, but maybe I couldn't have afforded that. And where can I go? I can't get that now, but I will, plan it pestering my husband and yeah for example I love a sale too, so I, there was a lot that I wanted for the entryway. I am not about different lines in terms of the entryway, but I wanted the entryway to me that sets the tone of a home and I really wanted it to be something interesting. And. To be honest, if you ask my husband about this light, he'd be like, are you insane? Like, why would you spend, 400 on a light? But to me, I'm like, It's something I truly love. I wouldn't leave, even if we sold the house, I'd take it with me. And a good electrician to put it in the new, but I just, don't get me wrong. I still go, Oh, that's on the pricey side, but I know the worth, I know it's handmade. I know I really like it. I know that it'd look really lovely. I know that it sets a tone. I know that it's not impractical and I just, I don't know, I these are the things, and then I go I'm gonna, I'm gonna see it every day. So I value it. We could probably talk for days. podcast, Michelle. Anyone who wants to follow along I will pop some details on how to connect with you in the show notes and I will chat to you soon. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. No problem. All right. Bye for now. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success. This is the end.

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