What the second year of business is really like..

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Transcript

0:13

Welcome to Designing Success from Study to Studio. I'm your host, Rhiannon Lee, founder of the Oleander Finch Design Studio. I've lived the transformation from study to studio and then stripped it bare and wrote down the framework so you don't have to overthink it. In this podcast, you can expect real talk with industry friends, community, connection, and actionable tips to help you conquer whatever's holding you back. Now let's get designing your own success. Today's podcast guest is one that I have actually interviewed once before, but who I have been so lucky to have an intimate behind the scenes look at her business over the last two years. And we've had lots of conversations and she came to me and said, gosh, the second year of business. This is so hectic and so different to the first year and I thought, I bet there's heaps of people out there that would love to hear what exactly what that difference is because I worked with Gaylene. Today I am chatting to Gaylene of Gaylene Drew Designs. I spoke to her on this podcast when she was in her first year of business, just coming to the end of that first anniversary. And now it's been almost a year since then, and I'm checking back in with her today because I know that things have changed so heavily in her business. She has seen projects all the way through to the end result. She has had her projects picked up by media, and she's pitched those projects to media and she's had them published. And I just know there's a lot of people out there who still haven't, maybe at three years, four years, really embraced that side of things. So she has a lot of great insights and I really enjoyed this chat. I hope that you do too. Now let's get chatting to Gayleen.

gaylene: 1:51

I am running a successful business, but like you still have those moments like I think we've discussed before those first six months of this year. So many people were like, what is going on? Sorry, quiet, so dead, and you start questioning things, and this is going to continue, and then,

rhiannon: 2:06

Things take a turn, and all the other things. But also, you sometimes start to question ugh, am I made for this? It's so much more work than just working for someone else. If someone would just tell me what to do next, that would be fantastic some days. Yeah. It takes it's so much resilience and tenacity. You need to run a business, but then you also need to maintain that at that level, that energy level, that passion level for your business. And look, let's be honest. There are times where you are just like, I can't show up at that energetic level this week. Or right now I'm just, the climate out there is. Like tumbleweeds, there's no inquiry coming in. I know it's not just me, it's everyone. But do I have what it takes to stick around and wait for the tables to turn for one of another phrase?

gaylene: 2:54

Yeah. Yeah. Last month I didn't do any posting on social media. I did my stories, but I didn't plan or schedule any posts or anything. I was just like, nope, it's just not a thing that I'm worrying about at the moment. I'll focus on other aspects and areas and worry about that another

rhiannon: 3:09

day. And that's okay too. I think consistency is obviously better, but if you can't show up like that, it's better than putting out a month's worth of uninspired content for the sake of doing it. Everyone knows it's such a waste of your time and energy if you're pushing something forward that is not. It's not helpful. It's not good. And a social media break is so important. Consistency is fine, but what are you supposed to do? Be consistent for the rest of your life. Like you are allowed to have a month in Europe, a summertime vacay, like whatever that looks like. Yeah, I know. You're like, I didn't do that. I just didn't want to post on Instagram. I

3:47

was just, going to the G shop.

rhiannon: 3:51

But I think it's a good point that you make. And I've been the same lately. If you go back and look at the dates of the posts, it's very unusual for me to just have one a week or just, I have not had the capacity. I've taken on three times the amount of clients and I just don't have the capacity to show up as often nor do I have the desire to, so let's be clear. It's not just Oh, I haven't had, it's no, I'm feeling, I'm Uninspired by Instagram right now, unrewarded, everything's changing and that's okay. Change is a good thing, but I'm not sure what my level of commitment to come along with it changes is going to be. You'll notice, and this is the same as you, I show up daily on my stories. I show up for the people who want to connect. I'm there in the DMs for everyone. That's heard the podcast. That's come over and talked to me. I'll still have my social conversations. I'll show up on my stories. I've gone live twice this week. Like I will still be. actively engaging with Instagram as a platform. It's just that the post slash real slash content wheel hasn't felt like the return on investment has been right. Given the, like the amount of energy I've needed to launch other things and do other things.

gaylene: 4:55

Yeah, I decided to like I went and updated my website a bit more and put some like the completed projects on there and some time on your things you own. Yes yeah, and move boards on there that my Pinterest can actually link back to because I was working on my Pinterest, but I was like, This is just going to pages on my website, but they're not gaining anything from it. So I'm like maybe this way they feel like they're gaining something from it.

rhiannon: 5:18

Yes. Which that customer touch point and journey is so important. And I think it's great that you recognize that because we can throw as many URLs as you want to connect to pins that you're putting up and you can use Marius and get all the keywords and do all the stuff. But you can't, if you, yeah, if you burn that inquiry as it gets to your website, because we all know what that's like when you're looking through Pinterest and you click on visit and you go somewhere random. Yes. I hate it. I recall recently you spoke to me about when it's quiet, getting in a bit of a procrastination mode or and I'm truly believe this, I'm not weird, but I do believe that your mojo is reflective of what's happening. So when things are busy, you find you get more deposits and more inquiry than you can handle. And it's the same as what is that the barefoot investors got paid that wrote that talks about, money mojo. And if you've always got say 10, 000 sitting there, you don't feel freaked out that you're living paycheck to paycheck. Even if that's how you decide to live with your money, you've got this egg or mojo that makes you feel good. And I feel the same as with business. If you've got ongoing bookings and you're getting inquiry, even if that inquiry isn't projects you want to take on or whatnot, it feeds that energy inside of you so that you can get more done, more inquiry. So is that what you think was happening with the procrastination lately?

gaylene: 6:32

Yes, definitely. And it's funny that you say that because that's where I'm at the moment. Inquiries have picked up and I'm being busy doing quotes and meeting with people and having consultations. And like just prior, before we got into this chat, I was having an initial consultation with someone on the phone to book in, their first meeting. And it does, it just feels like and builds up into these these projects and meetings with clients, but when it was quiet, yeah, it just got into a slump. I'm like, there's nothing here, nothing's happening. What should I do? And then instead of, having those extra bits and pieces, processes, services to work on, like you did at the beginning, like in the first year of business. The second year, it's all set up there, so there's not those little things to tweak and do, so you start, I don't know, yeah, just went into a bit of a rabbit hole oh, just go watch some extra TV, or I'll go do something that's not so productive. But then, yeah, you find once those inquiries pick up, you've got to reallocate that time,

rhiannon: 7:35

to put down housewives of Beverly Hills and actually get back to it. I think it's interesting because there's from my perspective, there's sort of two camps as well. There's people that are just like, okay I can recognize this as a bit more of self care rest time, because I know when it's busy, like I won't get any of that. And then there's those that pound the pavement for marketing. Like they go helpful level to be like, okay, I need to drum this business up for myself. And I'm not saying that's a better approach because that can also make you feel even worse when you get no inquiry. Cause you've done everything you possibly can to extract that from the local area. And you're like still nobody's booking anything. But it's interesting. People do take different approaches and neither are wrong. I think it's okay to be like, look, there was a season for, 12 weeks or something where I was just restful and didn't, as you say, didn't have those big. jobs to do like branding and creating processes and that sort of stuff. Were you tempted to change stuff to keep busy? Like just like change documents and yeah.

gaylene: 8:35

Or completely just go change my logo and my colors and redo all my documents and go change everything up again. But I did put some restraints in place. I was like, no, this is not the time to do that. And I'm glad you did it with the website and not the actual Yeah. I'm like, no, just take a seat back, focus on, I guess some other little things that have taken a backseat and put some effort into those. And I did put some self care in there and it was hard to put that self care in there, but then also not feel bad that I wasn't doing things in the business. There were more nights, on the couch watching some TV with hubby than I did. Doing, working in the business and on the business, my creativity took a bit of a slump as well, like you, because you're not in there working on projects, doing finishes, selections, designing modeling, doing all of that. I don't know, just my creativity wasn't there, wasn't, yeah, it just, it wasn't there, and that can get into a little bit of a slump as well, and then getting back into it when the projects start coming, you've really got to ramp up again and get back into that headspace of being creative.

rhiannon: 9:49

And it's really hard to too many people. Yeah. Like we can't monitor that. We're not dancing monkeys. Like we can't just that be fingers and be creative. Like you can have creators block writers, blog artists, like all whatever that is, but not, it's not always there. And when you've got low mojo, you've got low productivity, things aren't going well. It's very hard to onboard something and care about, I know it sounds bad, but To the point that you do when you're really engaged with your business.

gaylene: 10:22

Yeah, definitely. And that's where I'm at the moment. I've got to get re engaged with the business and the projects that I'm working on and find that mojo and that creativity again, ensure that I'm doing the best for my clients.

rhiannon: 10:34

We've spoken about this before. So this is like the second year and the first year you had all of those documents and the framework and all sorts of things to do. But you also were really lucky to have work from the get go, get into a routine of showing up and doing lives, like learning your marketing, learning what's going on. And so I would imagine it's a bit of a rude shock when the inquiry stops, did you feel like maybe I've got to the end of the line and that's it. I have to pack up the business now.

gaylene: 11:02

Yes. Yeah. It was a very shock. And I guess a part of me maybe thought, Oh, people are seeing what I'm doing and producing and working on now. And maybe they don't like it. Yeah, not good enough.

rhiannon: 11:13

They can see everyone else had the flip side and they worry about that before they got the clients. Cause they're showcasing portfolio, whatever they can come up with. To try to get their first clients and you hit the ground running, but then had to go and face that impossibility that we all have to face regardless.

gaylene: 11:29

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They've seen the kitchen that I've done and they've gone, Oh maybe she's not as good as she's putting out there and it's not someone that I want to work with and start thinking along those lines. But I guess in a sense. As much as I feel bad for everybody else in there, out there as well who's designers and have their business or and so forth. I wasn't alone, in the slump that was the first six months of 2024. Correct. And I guess that was a little bit comforting and sensible and maybe it's not necessarily the projects that I'm producing and putting out there.

rhiannon: 12:02

And there was a one person that I spoke to privately or group or publicly and in every podcast episode, everything, whether it's gone to air or not gone to air, we've had conversations and the climate has been different. It's turned around, which I'm very grateful for. But the first. Even just turned around this month, I'd say or in the last four weeks, I don't even think it's been that long. And suddenly we're just like the sun's out. Oh, thank God. Like winter was

12:32

you

rhiannon: 12:32

know,

gaylene: 12:32

I also started to question why did I put all this effort in the first year doing those systems and processes and my branding and my website and everything, if it's not doing anything for me now. But If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't have had all those projects to begin with anyway, and I wouldn't have been busy in that 1st year. realizing now if I didn't have that all in place, I wouldn't be able to focus on other aspects of this business in the last year and maybe, and focus on different parts of, business development personal development projects and spend that time focusing on the projects that I do have in place. And putting effort into, yeah, other aspects like Pinterest and focusing more on my social media instead of creating those. Systems and processes because they're already done.

rhiannon: 13:23

And in terms of just looping us back to that sort of imposter syndrome feeling or feeling like, okay, I've publicly shared this now and I'm not getting a flood of inquiry afterwards, which, you can sometimes think, okay, I'm going to pitch something and it's going to get picked up by media. And then I should get at least one or two clients from that or inquiry or, that sort of thing. And it's not always the reality. It's a great brand awareness piece, but it's not always the reality that it's. Translates completely into paid work and what was the feedback like from the clients themselves? Were you able to at least hold on that they loved it? They've given great feedback because that can help, I think, if we've got that.

13:59

Yes. Yeah.

gaylene: 14:01

No, definitely. I've been really lucky that I get to, and I have worked with amazing clients and they've been opening, giving me feedback in regards to the project. And I'm proud to say that a majority of that feedback has been fantastic and they're willing to do testimonials and comment on posts and say so and give me ratings and everything. It's been fantastic and allowing me to share those projects on my website or through publications like the Interior's Addict. Has been fantastic. So that's been really good and they've had confidence in me. And I think what's been, the best feedback is them referring me to other people and clients and getting projects from their referral, which has been amazing.

rhiannon: 14:45

Yeah, I always think you can. Sit down, job well done when your name comes up in a Facebook community group. So the way that I feel about my business, if I'm not in the conversation, but I'm always in the conversation, this is a good thing. Like I've built a business that other people are happy with the e design that they got, or the, the results and work and the process of working together, because you see your name, you're tagged all the time, popping up in Facebook groups. And it's particularly important. We've talked about this in the first interview that I did with you, working regionally, being in a smaller town that becomes really a benchmark that you want to be seeing your name pop up whenever there's a question around help with interior design.

gaylene: 15:26

Yeah. It's still a work in progress. Building those connections. I think we spoke the first time about building those connections with local builders in particular. And it's still something I'm having difficulty in.

rhiannon: 15:40

And I say it all the time. We just need to get some builder friends because it's. That it's, and this is no shade, but, and I say this publicly because I want everyone who's listening, who's working their butt off to create a flyers and marketing aimed at builders. They're not great on email. They're not great at so many things, but if you happen to catch them at a barbecue and if you happen to have a personal connection and conversation. So if you have a conversation with someone who happens to also be a builder or married to a builder or brother is a builder or whatnot, that connection is the marketing you need to be doing, pick up the phone, go and but have, chat to the school parents, find out which ones are tradies or who do you work with, introduce me and make a friendship first, not a marketing flyer first, because I think that's how everyone I've ever spoken to that works is. Exclusively with, or has one or two contractors or builders that they work with to create designs and different selections for knows them, met them, is friends with them. It isn't anyone doing a great one page flyer.

gaylene: 16:45

Yep. Yep. And these things take time to build up, like you said, at the sports field, at a barbecue, friends of a friend. It might be a name here in January, but then they don't think of you or

rhiannon: 16:56

contact you till

gaylene: 16:57

later

rhiannon: 16:57

on

gaylene: 16:57

in August.

rhiannon: 16:58

And also genuine connections, like wanting to be friends, not being like sorry, I thought you were a builder. I'm moving on to the next person. You have to be a bit more organic than that. It's not oh, dammit, I've wasted five minutes and you're actually in accounts.

gaylene: 17:15

I even now I still think that is a work in progress for Gayling Drew Designs

rhiannon: 17:21

I think it's such a great fit for you I think that builders appreciate that level of detail because you're able to hand over things that make sense to them. And it's not just somewhere in between, which is it's not a 2d mood board or it's not like just that, but it's not like Just, I don't want to say just elevations, but it's like very detailed what you are delivering. And I think that means that it is such a good fit. If you can stay on the side of the technical expertise side of the team, as opposed to just being like, I'm pulling together the colors. Cause I really don't feel that's what Galey Drew Designs does necessarily.

gaylene: 17:55

Yeah, no, I'm definitely more focused on the detailed side of the documentation coming from my building design background. And I think builders are starting to realize that because more of my project and documentation is getting out there now because projects are going out for tender and quoting. So they're seeing that and they're seeing the detail that they can get and they can see that they can accurately price and quote these projects before Starting it and getting too deep and having all these questions for clients and the clients are really appreciate it as well because they can get some detailed pricing back before getting too far into the project and realizing, hey, our budget doesn't extend to this or we don't have that to invest here. We'd rather invest here. And we can make those changes before it actually happens

rhiannon: 18:38

creating a lot less work for the builders. And I think that the clients sometimes don't even know that the quotes aren't accurate. I think sometimes they just think Oh, I've checked, around about what this flooring would be to this floor plan and like not realizing that's for the actual timber boards, but who's laying them? What is the glue cost? Where is the like, there's there's so much that we take care of, I guess that I think that sometimes this is where we've. mismanaged expectations. And we have grumpy clients with dead budgets. It's because that again, that data. And I think, yeah, it is definitely a great fit for builders to like for you and your marketing to really shout out about that sort of approach because the builder absolutely, if given a choice between you and I know which one the builder will choose, it's not me.

gaylene: 19:29

Past in the second year of business as well as a bit more around the Project admin side of projects, and how they come to fruition and, starting off with contacting the builder or doing the quotes and making the selections and everything. I'll get the start you. You have a system and you have processes in place, but it's not until you start working on projects and doing them, you realize, hey, maybe this needs to be moved around here, or this switch to here and you start to learn what works for you as a designer and within your business, and you can make those changes. And each project gets better and you grow and you learn and you implement those things that you learn from other projects into the next one. And I guess one hard part this past year is that my projects are coming to life, they're being built, they're being renovated joiners are working with them, builders are working with the documentation, but learning that And coming, being okay with that, we're not always right. And things go wrong. Hard pill for you to

rhiannon: 20:31

swallow.

gaylene: 20:32

It really is. And that, not everything's perfect and things do go wrong and mistakes can happen. And I've tried, I try sometimes, I don't do it very well, but to look at it as though yes, maybe these mistakes have happened, but what, how many more mistakes would have happened without that documentation? Without that clear, without those clear systems and processes, without that detailed schedule or those details there, like, how much time would have been wasted in communication between clients and builders backwards and forwards? How many design mistakes would have been made without that clear documentation? Yes, I made maybe 1 mistake, but there could have been 3, 4, 5 without that documentation in place. And learning how to handle those mistakes as well. Yeah, I've. My personality can be a bit defensive sometimes. Using those mistakes or things that have happened to really grow myself as well and how I handle these situations has been a very steep learning curve, I think, in this past, this second year of business

rhiannon: 21:35

as well. They're unavoidable. There's not a project that generally happens with that. Like they're actually why we exist, to be on site, to pull it all together and to manage those. little pickles that come up in every single thing. It just can feel very personal when it's your drawing or your thing that you've done, that's been mismeasured, or there's a slight problem with, and it's really hard not to take that really personally. And to look at it objectively for the fix and not to fixate on the fact that it was a problem. Cause it's actually very easy for us to be like, Oh my God. And yeah. Immediately you want to fire back apologies, ownership. Like you want to do all of this stuff, but actually it's a good rule of thumb. Whatever you do put 24 hours between it and you. So just making sure that if you write the email, if you do the thing, save it in drafts, go for a walk. Think on it for a day, like nothing's changing between what's happened and what, and how you approach it except for time. And I always just flick off a quick email of acknowledgement that I've seen that something has come into my inbox or that there is an issue and that I am taking it very seriously. And I'll be in touch in a timely manner, like within 24 to 48 hours with Solutions. But yeah, going straight back, we tend to go on the defensive or go, so it's good to have that editing time and just a little bit of objectivity and get help and reach out to someone else and say, this is the situation what do I do? And just remembering as well, I always say this, everyone says this, but we're not brain surgeons. No, one's going to die. And generally what is going to happen is either going to cost time or money. And that's fine. Like you've got both. Generally the mistakes are quite minimal. And yeah. We can still give them weight and we can still apologize. And we can still, as you say, grow and learn and find different ways. But I think it's good to acknowledge for everybody that very few projects go without hiccups and the hiccups have to be owned by someone. Sometimes it's a builder. Sometimes it's you. Sometimes it's joy, not like. Yeah, roundabouts and when you're up, you're up, you're just going to have to take it on the chin and work with it.

gaylene: 23:42

Yeah. And how you handle those situations with those trades and professionals are going to, factor whether they want to work with you again, and being professional about it. But also I think it's important, to stand your ground in a sense. When, and learning from the situation

23:59

standing your ground without being

rhiannon: 24:01

They'll be annoyed if there's a mistake and it's okay to be like, look, I'm annoyed at myself too, but let's look at solutions instead of Sit in the problem. Cause that's always my jam. I'm like solution book. It's don't come to me with the problem, unless you've already got an idea of how you want to approach the solution, because otherwise you're just doing that victim mentality. I cannot cope with. And so I think the same is on site. It's very much it's okay for you to be annoyed at me. But you get, you've had your shot, let's now look to the future. And I think that, yeah, when you say standard ground, it's more of that. I really want to get this moving for the homeowner and fix what's happened. Like I've acknowledged that what's happened is sat on my end. Now, how do we get them to a point where they're happy? You're happy. I'm happy. Let's just keep going. Working

gaylene: 24:43

together and moving forward. Yeah. Ultimately, the client in the end is where they estimate their life easier and bring their dreams and visions to life.

rhiannon: 24:55

And that like I said, with the swings around about things, there's going to be something that pops up at some point that's on you. So how you behave to me when it's on me, it's going to directly determine how easy I make it on you with the homeowners when it's your fault, because it's so easy. The big projects, things come up and yeah, but and I had this earlier in the week as well inside of the emerging designer group with someone who got their very first round of feedback where the client didn't like what they delivered. And that's hard, right? Cause we're so invested. We pour over things for hours, we make decisions. And then when it goes back and they're like, no to that. That looks, I don't know what that is. That thing on the wall isn't for me, that kind of stuff. It's like a dagger to the heart, like it's really hard. And yeah, I think those, it's interesting that you say that about the second year because I, and I've said this right from the very first day inside of the framework is like, what I, Give to fast tracks you, but it isn't because we're making a franchise mini Oleander and finches, and it's very customizable and you need clients before you can make business decisions. So we build hypothetical worlds. And you're going to have to pull them all down and start again with the knowledge that you have after you've. Know how to process map and you know how to do this, then when you have your clients and then nothing like the services that you designed and everything just feels a little, but that's where you make the business decisions. Now you're taking the reins, you're all grown up, you've graduated out of the framework, but, and not nearly as defiant as the two year old I have in my house at the moment, it's just like crazy. It's important. I think people are just trying to one and done everything. Like I did that. So that's squared away, but it's an evolution and your business is only gets another year older and another year older, and it keeps on growing and changing what mine looks like now is nothing like it looked six years ago. And what, or nothing like I intended it to be. It just didn't know this was ahead for me. And I think it's really important to realize that your customers is. And your services inform your business, not the other way around. You can't like, just what do I you can't just build it and they will come. You can try, but you're going to have to do lots of tweaks along the way, because it might turn out that you do some projects and you absolutely love a particular side of it. And you want to pivot a little bit or Yeah, as you say, you've got this process mapped out. And then it turns out like step three is just a pain for you, pain for the client. That's why my questionnaire does not exist. Because on paper. Correct. Because on paper that looks like the next step and why that would be so great. But in reality, it's a massive pain in my ass, constantly chasing people down. Have you filled out your questionnaire? I'm never reading it when I'm actually working. And I'd rather have a conversation because I must be like a bit of a, I have a really good photographic memory. So I think I'm like a visual learner. And so having the conversation. Zoom. I feel like I can recall those bits while I'm designing that they were talking about way better than if I just read it on a piece of paper that's not sticking. It's

gaylene: 27:57

yeah. Because we are visual wise, like we can see it in our mind and the creativity. It has to be 3D. Don't write it down. Yeah. We can already see that space. We can already see the color on the wall. We can see that couch in the corner. We can see the tiles on the floor yeah, and then

rhiannon: 28:11

it makes it a whole lot easier. It must be what it is. I just need to have hear it in their own words as well, to be able to capture it more. And I think where people write on questionnaires, they write quite formally, like the style outcomes I've always envisaged for the space. That's how you talk. Just tell me what you want.

gaylene: 28:27

Yeah. And it's a lot more personal as well. Like they get to hear you and know that you've made time your day to have a chat with them and get to know them and really hear about their projects. And it gives you a better opportunity to sell yourself and your services and booking that next stage of meeting with them and hearing from them. The second year confidence really grows and, systems and processes a bit more and your it's a lot easier to, talk to clients about those potential clients and what, how your business runs and how it works and you can feel confident in those systems and processes because you've been doing them for the past year and, You're learning what does and doesn't work and morphing it as it goes along. You're definitely a lot more confident in the business side of things this second year implementing zero and notion into the business and. Better with tracking, better with finances, all those kind of things that maybe took a backseat to what I thought was important in that first year. Isn't maybe should have been more, I should have been focusing on.

rhiannon: 29:25

It wouldn't matter how much I focused on that inside of the framework. You have to learn those things for yourself. So I watch over and I'm like, the amount of times you are fiddling around with the homepage on your website, which by the way, the about me page is the most visited on your website. And the homepage is a bumper to the next place and destination. No one's actually really cares or like the amount of time that you've Played with colors and logos and stuff. It's the reason I give time limits on those tasks, because I'm like, if you just watch two YouTube, 20 minute YouTubes on how to use notion properly, you could set up the things that you dream of having in your business yourself without, so there's so many things, but I truly believe you've got to learn them yourself or that. Or they're not lessons. If you don't make a mistake, it's why I actively just let people fall over sometimes. And it's I could have probably saved you from that, but then, and I'm going to out you right now as a, one of these things is you, I could have Properly saved you from under quoting on a large job that I felt, you know, and I gave you the feedback. I don't think it's high enough. And then you were like, I'm going to keep it. Cause I want the opportunity. I'm going to keep it this low. And I was like, do you know what? I'm just going to watch that play out because when you do it and you do it for less than your worth, you won't do it again. Cause it's a big project and that you under quoted on it. I didn't see you nodding. And it's I'm sorry to publicly shame you, but I'm like, I had to see it play because now I know when you. If you were to flick me something, even though we're not working together and go, look, I've had a really big opportunity with this builder. This is what I've pulled together. Can I have your honest feedback on it? And I told you my honest feedback, you would listen this time and you would just raise it up. Or you would go, I take all of that, take all of that in. I'm going to sit on it for a day or two. I'm just really gonna try to go in at the level that is right. Instead of go under, so I don't lose it.

gaylene: 31:16

Yeah and I definitely did learn from that particular project and it I think it was the other day, bit me in the butt a little bit but I know now for future projects that I need to change where I'm allocating things in my stages within my scope of work. And how I communicate with clients to have a better outcome for them and for me. I guess I still question every point that goes out and I think you always will. Yeah, I know in my mind, I'm probably still am under quoting the majority of my quotes. Maybe that's a third year in business thing.

rhiannon: 31:51

When you feel okay with losing the work when you feel okay to test it to a point where and I guess that comes down to everyone's individual financial circumstances and risks that they're taking or what they need to do because each opportunity to pitch for work. The only time you actually are able to lift your pricing up to a point where you can actively look at your conversion rates and feel like win some, lose some is when you can afford to win some, lose some. So there's no judgment here. I just think that sometimes with the type of project that you were pitching for, they were well aware of what it should cost to do that sort of thing. And I think they would have been high fiving each other when that came through and do like the deposit got paid within seconds of that email arriving.

gaylene: 32:39

It did. Yes. And that one is actually wrapped up now, but I haven't seen it fully completed. So I'm excited to get that one photographed and share more of that project very soon. And that's there's no negativity

rhiannon: 32:50

to it. Like it went full circle. You get a testimonial, you get some images from it. You had a huge learning, like there was learnings in that one. And so sometimes when we do win work and we're probably under quoted a bit, I just try to look for the silver linings, which is You can learn a little bit on this. Cause if you make a few little mistakes and stuff, you're like, look, you only paid X amount of money for this job. Ultimately, and you, you would work at the level of though they paid three times as much because you're really focused on the delivery and stuff. Yeah, you do your postmortems, you wrap it up and find out what's going on, but there's nothing. I guess it's, I think it's just important. And I was talking about that through the lens of I'm watching every day, like I see mistakes happening that I could stop, but I feel like if I intercepted those sorts of things, then you'd get to year two and year three without any learnings and you could make a really big mistake.

gaylene: 33:44

Yep. Yeah. And even now I'm pretty good at, I'm still in touch with quite a few of the ladies from the framework. And we will discuss prices and quotes and projects and I'm pretty good at giving out the advice on their prices, but I'm not necessarily taking it and implementing

rhiannon: 33:59

it myself. You need to email them yours and then get on a call with them and get them to present it to you as though it's theirs and then, pick it apart with what you want to do so obviously the first year community, I think, and support networking is everything. Like I'm actually so delighted with how that group is each year inside the framework. So close. And it's something that I think I've said quite a few times, those calls and things for a last minute Oh yeah, I'll just, Do that. And they actually become the crux of the course. Like you can watch the videos and you can do the documents, but you'll still be in a very lonely environment for that first year, implementing those things all on your own. And it's the calls and the fact that every time you front up, you're like, I am not the only person that feels like Jesus take the wheel. I do not know what's going on. I can't do a discovery call because I haven't set my processes. Like you're talking about the confidence that you have now. That's because you could recite to me right now, what happens in a job from the first touch point to hand over. And that's through constantly pitching it, doing discovery calls, knowing it. But in the beginning, we're still writing it and we don't know it. And if someone calls me, I'm like, Oh God, what are we going to do? And yeah, so you're still catching up with them outside of that. So that second year, how are you keeping on top of community, and making sure that you feel supported.

gaylene: 35:18

Listening to your podcast, I feel supported even just by doing that and catching up with you. And yeah, we're still, we've got a bit of a chat going on with some of the frameworkers and just regularly sharing in there some of the issues that we're having or problems that need solving or just getting feedback or having a bit of a vent, and feedback on certain situations. But it's been great also this year to catch up with quite a few of them and you in Melbourne, which was really exciting going to that decor and design. But yeah, it's just, it's really nice having that community and I call them friends now. And that's what is that being a part of that framework is actually really built into these blossoming friendships where you can feel confident. And not judged in talking to people about certain situations or how the business is going and not feel so lonely behind a computer screen in the office.

rhiannon: 36:10

Yeah, it's a rare thing, isn't it? It's not that often that you are able to just shoot over a full proposal and scope of work and with that. Like with figures attached and a lot of that stuff is, it is commercially sensitive. It's what you're doing, but it takes that support to such a next level when you feel like you can be like, can you run your eyes over these, any red flag, like anything here that you think I'm drastically undervaluing or time wise, is this right, is that right? And I love that you guys are still like hanging out besties, cause it moves on. Like I've had three rounds of 12 months, of people have cycled through and every month they say goodbye to not every month, but like for every launch, I should say in it, there's five launches. So five times a year, I say goodbye to a group of people. And it's but I say hello to the next. So it's yeah,

gaylene: 36:57

building those connections as well for our business network and other, skills and so forth. If we do need to outsource certain elements of projects or admin or 3D rendering or documentation, we have a network of people that we can reach out to that we know that we can trust and rely on and are going to get. Valuable assistance from. Want people to talk to that are in the same industry as well and understand what's going on and within, similar levels of your business as well, because we're all experiencing the same thing at a

rhiannon: 37:31

similar time. Yeah. You are like effectively all startup at the same time in the framework and all going year two is a bit different, isn't it? Yeah. I'm

37:40

busy. What's going on? This is amazing. How do I handle all these projects? Yeah. Yeah.

rhiannon: 37:45

It's so nice. Like it, it honestly is such a delight based on early conversations and calls and that point that every single one got to, which was like, I just. Have done so much work and nothing is happening. And, you start and we all have self doubt even though at times in the very first original round of framework, when I was like telling everyone this is normal, hold on, it comes, but it's not. And I was like, bloody hope it does. Yeah. For me, but I know that I'm teaching the right thing, but until you see it, it's a bit like you were saying with the projects, I can tell you actually. See it, you can get that doubt of okay let's hope this transformation stuff is all it's cracked up to me because I'm, I promised it to you. And I know that what I'm teaching should deliver it, but yeah, you have to do the work and what if it doesn't? And so you can worry about every student and. To date, I haven't had anyone do the framework and go all the way through and do the stuff and not get that outcome of I'm busy working with clients. I've got the thing. Like we don't have any of those stories except for, I would say the very rare people who sign up and just never log in, like just don't do anything. It's I'm not taking responsibility for those people because clearly they haven't been through the framework. They purchased it and that's that. Yeah.

gaylene: 39:01

Yeah. Imagine where their businesses would be if

rhiannon: 39:04

Yeah. And this is like another thing that you will find, with year two, year three, year four is it becomes increasingly difficult to make the time to make the improvements because you can actually just tick along with projects, tick along with projects, but never be able to sit back and say, I need to look at personal growth. I need to look at systems. Again, there are ways I can tighten things up. There are, there is a focus on. Deciding what scaling looks like for me. And am I going to hire or outsource or tidy up what I've got to make room for more clients and stuff. And there is some work that happens probably I'd say end of second year into third year. There's a, another big shift where you think, okay, there's going to be more than this. Cause I'm chasing my tail now. And I had all the processes in place. So why is it feeling like I'm a bit process heavy. And that can be why I remember like what I was saying before about building for hypothetical things. If you're not really tweaking it along the way, you're pushing hypothetical onto reality and it's quite tough. And you've got to reassess it all. Yeah, like in

gaylene: 40:11

theory and during each project I'm making changes and tweaking them to what I've learned previously, but. Yes, I don't have the time, and I need to set the time to go back and physically change them within my systems and processes, and note down what I have learned. So if, if the amazing thing happens that I have a staff member or something on board, or a VA or someone assisting me, it's all there, and the systems and processes are up to date to go. But yeah, you get busy in the actual working in the business and

rhiannon: 40:41

then not setting that time aside to work on the business. There's not a person I know where that's not a truth. And also it's not an outsourceable task. Standard operating procedures are how you want your business to run. Like we want the control of stuff. You can't have both. You VA to get up to date and up to speed with you. If you won't. Prepare them it's just horrible. Like any manager, I've got a new job, but they're like, I don't know. It's the vibe of the thing. Like I'll tell you when you're wrong. That's terrible. Yeah. No one wants to do that. And I think it's well, just recognizing that the general role is. Bringing on someone like that about three months before you need them. So I think we also are very last minute in I'm drowning here. And then that pressure is projected onto this poor VA who there's no operating procedures. You've shouting demands at them and then expecting that they delivered the way that you expect it delivered without sharing expectations. Not you specifically, obviously, it's really tough. And then. And we don't do it until the last minute in order to save money, whereas if we could save ourselves so much. Bad results, or difficult in communication and all sorts of stuff. If we think small term pain, long term gain, like I might have to pay for this BA for three months and just get her to do some pretty basic stuff, schedule some content or do this and that before we're really busy and I'm getting the documentation pulled up together and all that sort of stuff. Just, an idea for people. Considering out there, it's always earlier than you think. Yeah, totally. And that's come from experience of me crashing and burning, trying to hire three different VA's and the poor girls are just like,

42:21

What?

rhiannon: 42:23

It's so much wasted time to have a briefing call once a week for three hours of support. If that's all in an operations library, you don't need to do anything except list out the tasks and send an email and that's, saves time for everyone or put a project together on Notion or Trello or whatever you're using Asana.

gaylene: 42:40

And there are things to get on top of in, in that. I guess for me, the second year of business, I've got the majority of that in place, but it is changing and evolving and keeping on top of that, but also not yet not losing sight of that once you do get busy and ensuring that, if you get busier, you can start creating waitlists and putting projects on hold until they're ready to, you can move on from one to the other and Working out those systems and processes, which I haven't been fortunate enough to worry about before, but now is a possibility. It's a different kind of focus, isn't

rhiannon: 43:15

it?

gaylene: 43:15

Yeah, different type of focus and different business strategy, I guess you could say.

rhiannon: 43:21

And also just knowing not everything is always, we probably shouldn't say this publicly, but not everything is always about expansion. It isn't like sometimes there's place for year two is about personal growth and, some. Pulling some stuff together and knowing that maybe your plan is to expand, everyone has different things. I have kids that are not all in school. So maybe my expansion season is when Marley finally goes to prep in 2027. Yeah,

gaylene: 43:51

I may be while things were quiet, I'm like, Oh it could be quiet for a while now. I'm just going to enroll in a course for project management. And then here I am accepted into the course for project management site in January of 2025, and now I'm busy. What am I going to do? I'm going to have to figure out again, my schedule and timing and work this in here somehow.

rhiannon: 44:12

What's the sort of contact hours or commitment like, do you think? For the course? That's a really good

gaylene: 44:19

question, Rhianna.

rhiannon: 44:21

I'd be checking that out pretty quickly so that you can manage your Q1 and beyond.

gaylene: 44:27

So yeah, I've got to um, again, put that into running a business and a couple of businesses and figure that all out. That'll be a whole nother phase of Galene redesigns, and working out where and how that fits into my business, in the future as well, and whether that changes up my systems and processes and the services that I offer.

rhiannon: 44:47

Yep. We'll have you back in the framework as a guest speaker in October. I want you to bring in all of your learned skill and we're going to, expect you to do, you can come into the advanced, you can come into the established designer course as a guest and you can whip up our processes and management tools. Oh, sounds good. And

gaylene: 45:08

we'll do another podcast in September next year. Three years in Vegas.

45:12

Yeah. Why

gaylene: 45:13

not?

rhiannon: 45:15

So what's the plan, like where, how do you see the business evolving for, as you go into your third, when's your business anniversary?

gaylene: 45:23

The beginning of next month. I don't remember the exact date. So you technically

rhiannon: 45:27

Hit two years in October. Yeah.

gaylene: 45:29

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not very good at Setting structured goals is just not how I work as a person. I guess I just like to have a guess a bit of an idea and where I would like things to head and go. I guess next year, there is an idea in the back of my mind that maybe I have an office and it moves out from, spare bedroom at home and yeah. A bit more of a dedicated space where people can come and meet and have proper meetings with them.

rhiannon: 45:55

It also hits that productivity thing. Like it's, you're less likely to go and actively seek out Netflix if you're in an office. Like I can tell you that I won't. Often walk into the house. And so even if you're just trudging through, you do get a little bit more done by the

gaylene: 46:11

home or the washing basket on the floor. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yes, I've enrolled in a project management course, so that'll take up a bit of time. I still think I'm trying to figure out how to niche down on my services. I guess I know where I want to take it and what I want to do, but Speaking to that ideal client is still something I'm trying to figure out and work on. And implementing that, across my services and marketing and

rhiannon: 46:40

so forth.

46:42

I

rhiannon: 46:42

love that. So being a little bit more proactive than reactive. So instead of just capturing incoming inquiry and seeing if you could do that project, but being a little bit more I want to let people know that I'm whole house renovations or I'm kitchen bathroom specialist. And I only want to do that kind of work.

gaylene: 46:56

Yeah. Yeah. And. Maybe developing a bit more confidence in being able to say no, to certain projects

47:05

and,

gaylene: 47:06

Having the ability and

rhiannon: 47:08

freedom to do that. Do you find that influenced by family pressure? Because I felt like in the first couple of years of my business saying no felt like something I was probably ready to do, but my husband wasn't ready to hear like that. I said no to a deposit, but I was probably ready to do that. Are you in my mind?

gaylene: 47:27

That would be pretty much exactly where I'm at. Yeah, there's probably, yeah, a couple of projects where I feel like they're not. They're not my jam, they're not necessarily where my skills lie. I know I can do them and I'm capable of doing them but they're not, yeah, where my skills lie. But I do feel like I have to say yes to them just to keep a bit more, that money coming in. And, also, Catching up from the first six months of this year where it was really quiet and the same cash flow wasn't coming in. So the first year

rhiannon: 48:00

or two can be a lot of outgoings. Like the framework is not a free charity situation or there's a lot of outgoings you've invested in yourself, in your skill, in your growth and in all of that stuff. You still catch play catch up a bit. And I think mentally you carry that. Kind of responsibility because they're all very supportive in the beginning. Yeah, babe, do it. Like study and pay for that. And then you're like, you feel like you've got to reimburse all of that investment in yourself before you can make those sort of red light, green light choices. I will, we talk a little bit about hindsight and I'm going to give you my kind of recollection of what happened when I started red lighting things is that I was really careful to make note, this would have been the kickoff date for this project. And they were projects that I didn't want to do. And then watch that date be taken by something that I did do. And that gave me the confidence to red light green light a lot more and actually. Work only on projects that I really wanted to do. So I manually had a diary. There was no notion and I was like writing everything in pencil or whatever, but then I would pencil them in and then I would make a note to myself about why I'd said no to that project. Like perhaps it was like a style, like Hollywood glamor mirrored bedside tables, like something that did not light me up, did not want to do. And I would. Physically write that down. And then when something came up and it was a Japandi or a modern organic or something that was right in my wheelhouse that replaced it, it started. I could see the pattern of when you say no, you allow room to say yes to all the right things. And I physically tracked it. And then now I don't have any problems saying no to stuff because I'm like, I will fill that place. Cause I'm determined to do it. And I'm going to go out and find the project that's right to fill that space and make up. And you'd be so surprised. You know, That I'm not like, Oh, the universe is, but I do sort of, no, but I do you cannot explain the idea of saying no to a 9, 000 project that you don't really like, and then immediately getting something that the scope comes out at 9, 000 that you love and you're like, I can't explain why they would kick off on the same date and like when you're tracking it or whatever it is. Yeah. It starts to be like, actually, whenever I say no, I leave room for the right. But I don't know if it's the same thing that I can say yes to and that changes things. And if you don't want to do it bad enough, I find the most weirdest ways to justify things. I'll be like, okay the next four quotes have a 25 percent increase. Yeah. And that makes up a hundred percent like that covers that. And I'm not going to do that work. So I'll do four jobs and value myself more, or there's so many different ways to approach it while you're learning to. Do that because that is another step up to your business where you should be dropping into my DMS and be very proud of yourself to be like, I said no to even pitching for this work. So I haven't even pulled the proposal together. I can see that it's around an X amount of dollar kind of job, but it's not a job that's going to make me like, Disgustingly obsessed with my business, so I've let it go and I'm waiting for something else and I will be very happy to have that

gaylene: 51:01

DM. Maybe you'll hear from me that I do that. I guess one thing I learned from this one is, it would be, it's interesting because I'm quoting it and she got referred to me from a client that I worked with very first, like one of my first couple of projects, right? Sorry, when I was quoting. Probably 10 percent of what I should have actually been quoting.

51:19

Yeah.

gaylene: 51:20

Prices have changed greatly in 24 months now. Yeah, it'd be interesting see what kind of feedback there is in regards to that, and if she knows how much I did that first project for.

rhiannon: 51:30

Can I tell you somebody who's literally worked for 45 before and gets referrals all the time. It's not funny. I laugh at it now, but it's a different time, different place. Chill it out. And actually I do think I need to publicly address this because I don't think I ever did. Actually have said this maybe in one of the early episodes, but the reason that I was doing that was to build like the strategy of building experience portfolio and like clients and all of that sort of stuff. But it was during the very first lockdown of the pandemic. And if you earned over 500 within a week, then the government wouldn't pay you a wage, but you could earn up to 500 and the government would still get. Give you wage parity with what you already earned or whatever, when I lost my job due to COVID. So the strategy was to keep my income under 500. So that is very unlike anything that we see right now and that anyone I'm working with. So I think sometimes people don't quite understand why I would have done that or yeah, but. Don't you give the whole industry a bad name if you'll do something for 45. And I agree with that. And I've never publicly defended it except to say time and a place worldwide pandemic, very different times. And I wanted to see what would happen if I went all into my business. And part of that was like, I want to be exposed to as many homes via zoom. So I can practice my process, pull together my documents and learn. So I just wanted to publicly put that out there because I think people are still like, but why was it so cheap? It was because I didn't want to hit the cap and not get paid as well. And then maybe what if I hit the cap and I only made an extra 40 and I have to live on 590 when I could have been paid my wage. So that is actually the reason that it was like that for volume. Yeah. In the beginning, it's still learning your worth

gaylene: 53:15

and how long it takes to do a project. Hypothetically, we have these projects in our mind and we go, yes, I feel like a move was going to take me half an hour, but then, you're so slow. You're like, oh, wow, that took a week. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. But you do learn later on as well that we don't charge based on Our time and how long it takes to do things. And that's very hard to get your head around in the beginning. Our prices are based on our skills and

rhiannon: 53:42

our demand. For me, it was my DMS were blowing up. How do I get one of these? Can I, can you take a look at my daughter's room? Is there any chance I could book in with you before Christmas? I've got family coming. I'm desperate for this. I'm desperate for that. That's a great feeling, but that also tells you, yep, I can play with my prices now because

53:57

the

rhiannon: 53:58

baseline client. The client base is now secure. So now I can start to move on. But originally what I just wanted to share with you is that I get referrals from these people who paid 45 for theirs, but they're referring the outcome. So they're saying, I worked with this girl like in during COVID or whatever, and we still haven't changed anything. We love the room. It was really easy to do. It was this, it was that here's her details. They're not actually comparing invoices. And a lot of what you'll go on to learn is people are just like keeping up with the Joneses. My friend Sally worked with an interior designer and she said she was really affordable. She was really great. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Affordable. Looks different to everyone. Sally, in fact, did pay 45 for me to work with her, but you are going to pay 11. 95 for this one room or whatever. And all of that has been a business decision in between And it's just really interesting to me that they never talk and it's never come up and if it does come up, they're just like, oh that's obviously because it's been so many years between or and that pricing thing. Again, I was more expensive to work for. To work with pre COVID because I had a job and I only took one client a month, if I even got one, so I did one actual e design client and then nothing for two months. It was like a side hustle that was like, I wasn't hustling very hard. I barely told anyone I was terrified. I don't want to tell people that I'm doing design. I'm nervous. And so I see all this stuff inside the framework. I'm like, I'm not joking when I say I can. Like viscerally feel that same feeling of and I am so proud of, and so in awe of all the girls that like, just are able to quit their full time jobs and go into it and stuff. Like these are not decisions I had to make, like these were taken completely out of my hands. And I always am careful to be like it's not like I took a risk. I had nothing to do. I'd rather be on a zoom call learning than with my infant children in lockdown.

gaylene: 55:57

Me too. That's funny. I think in that first year as well, there is that element of treating your business as that side hustle and hobby. And, you're like, Oh, okay. It's okay. If I only charge this much. It's a protection thing too. So

rhiannon: 56:10

that if you fail, you can say I never really like it. Probably if I took it really seriously, I could have made it work. Like you, you still build a barrier of protection because for nine out of the 12 months, it feels like failure. It actually doesn't feel like it's working until pretty much year two. So welcome. And I think it's important to normalize that. I think people are not talking about the fact that like everyone else. Gets this through social media and other things, gets this idea that you're killing it. And then they say to you at every barbecue and every time he's here well done, the business is doing really well. And you're like, I've never had a paying paid client.

56:49

I am

rhiannon: 56:49

faking this tool and I am not making this, like I'm just faking it. And that's such a disconnect. It can make you feel so much more lonely. That is actually something I love inside the framework is. Everybody's feeling that, at different times of their business, feeling that particular feeling, but doing it together in a way that once a week you dial in and you're like, okay, it's not just me because I just sat on the floor of the shower crying. It looks like I'm like killing it in my business, but I'm not. And I'm worried all the time. And we're also, probably all going to die because it's COVID.

gaylene: 57:25

Yeah, and also having those people to look up to who might be a few months ahead and going that there is hope, these people are getting jobs. They are coming in. There is hope. I just got to keep at it. And I know that, the second year you get more stable, your feet are on the ground, you start to build that base and those connections and your systems and processes. And it's maybe I'm at a stage now where I'm like, Ooh, that next level. It's the third year. I really need to take this shit seriously now. And that's usually where I get private

rhiannon: 57:53

coaching clients. So that's where people come to me and say, Hey, I need to work quarterly one on one and I need accountability to hit. Through the glass ceiling. Like I need to go to the next step and I won't do that on my own. I'll get comfortable with the projects that I'm just doing.

gaylene: 58:07

I'd like to go a little bit more creative.

58:10

We just

gaylene: 58:11

had something different here.

58:13

Which is fun.

rhiannon: 58:15

Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? I used to find some, I don't know if this is helpful or not, but I used to find some successes in like creating the things that I was obsessed with that were not actually for a client. And then saying look a bit of a what do I want to say? What were those old ads like for romance, like looking for Mr. Blah blah, blah. And I'd be like looking for a homeowner who let me do this in their house. Like I'm looking for someone, looking for a man in finance. be like, I'm looking for someone who will be brave with the tiles like that. This is what I've designed. Now, could you just pop your address, add your bank account details here, and will just put it straight into your house? Like I was being facetious, but I was also a bit like that could really. Really started to showcase some of what I could do if you let me just do my thing instead of give me all the bloody client brief.

gaylene: 59:01

Yeah. I guess it's that's something that causes confidence with each project in each year as well. And it's different for a mood board. Like

rhiannon: 59:10

you're not going to do your sort of level of thing just to be like, I'm looking for a man in front of you. It's what a waste of time. I can whip up a mood board in 15 minutes and it's fine.

gaylene: 59:20

Here's another neutral timber with a white cabinet and there's the LH tile.

rhiannon: 59:25

It's it's a catch 22 as well because you got to give the people what they want and you dial in and they're like, I saw this bathroom on the block, just do that. It's that's not designing. You just do that. There's literally a shop with all of the lists. Why are you paying me to, Do a mood board, reverse engineer a mood board. And then I have to I didn't share those things, obviously, but I'd be like, this is really offensive to me. Cause I feel like you just like star source book is free. Like, why have you come to me and giving me this brief? And then I feel like, okay, just order taking it's horrible. Thank you.

59:58

All right. Have a great day. All right. Thanks so much. Bye. That wraps up another episode of Designing Success from Study to Studio. Thanks for lending me your ears. Remember, progress over perfection is the key. If you found value in today's episode, go ahead and hit subscribe or share it with a friend. Your feedback means so much to me and it helps me improve, but it also helps this podcast reach more emerging and evolving designers. For your daily dose of design business tips and to get a closer look at what goes on behind the scenes, follow at oleander underscore and underscore finch on Instagram. You'll find tons of resources available at www. oleanderandfinch. com to support you on your journey. Remember, this is your path, your vision, your future, and your business. Now let's get out there and start designing your success.