When a Will Is Enough: The Trust vs. Will Debate And When Which Is Easier

In our 27th episode, Estate Planning Attorney Nick Dupre dives into the nitty-gritty of wills, trusts, and probate, making complex legal stuff sound like a breeze. We debunk myths, like whether you really need an attorney for probate in Texas, and Nick spills golden tips on choosing the right executor and making probate a walk in the park. If you're lost in the maze of estate planning, Nick's got your back with practical advice and a touch of compassion.

There's something new to learn every week, so make sure you subscribe, hit the like button, and save this video to a playlist. If you need, help hop over to willowwoodsolutions.com to contact Sherri Lund.

EPISODE CHAPTERS

0:00 Introducing Nick Dupre

9:17 Will vs. Trust (Easier for You vs. Easier for Your Kids)

12:31 Do You Need An Attorney for Probate in Texas?

13:20 Small Estate Affidavit and Avoiding Probate

15:07 Independent vs. Dependent Executor

18:45 Tips For Choosing An Executor For Your Will

20:43 How to Make Probate Easy For Your Named Executor

24:26 How Much Does Probate Cost Including Estate Taxes?

31:49 Why Attorneys Want To Work With A Probate Specialist (Like Sherri!)

34:01 How Long Does It Take To Get a Will or Estate Plan Done?

🌟 Tips for Making Your Will/Probate Easier for the Executor:

• Choose an executor who's organized, can manage personalities, and stays focused under pressure.
• Keep an updated list of all your assets, passwords, and usernames in a letter of instruction for your executor.
• Remember, grieving takes time, so make room for your executor to process emotions while handling the practical stuff.

🤝 Contact Nick Dupre, Estate Planning and Probate Attorney

Phone: 832-482-4622
Website: https://www.stanfielddupre.com/
Email: info@stanfielddupre.com 

Connect with Sherri Lund and learn more about probate real estate, downsizing, and caregiver support on

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sherri-lund-willowwoodsolutions/
• Facebook (Share your recommendation!): https://www.facebook.com/WillowWoodSolutions
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/willowwoodsolutions/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV2fpT6kTz67ufkmMK5Z7zg/

Disclosure: The information shared on The Probate Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or financial advice. We strongly recommend consulting with a professional for advice specific to your situation. If you need help finding a professional, feel free to reach out to us at www.willowwoodsolutions.com/contact.

Please consider kindly rating this show so others can find it!

Transcript

0:21

Hi there, my name is Sherri Lund, and this is the Probate Podcast. I'm so glad that you're here today. I'm the founder of Willow Wood Solutions, and I help reduce the overwhelm for people when they're dealing with the senior transition, whether it's what to do with the stuff in the house, how to downsize, how to consider funding for long term care, and then navigating probate afterwards. I'm not an attorney, but I help with the logistics that attorneys don't do. So I'm really glad to have my guest here today, Nick Dupre. He is an attorney here in the woodlands Nick and I've known each other for a year and a half or so now. And I'm just so excited to have him. So, Nick, thanks so much for taking time out of your day and meeting me here today. No, thanks for having me. Always good to chat with you, Sherri. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's always fun when we chat. Okay, let me read a little bit about Nick to you. In 2004, Nick Dupre earned his Bachelor of Arts degree in political science from Trinity University, beautiful area. In 2007, he earned his law degree from Texas A& M School of Law, and he spent over 10, over 10 years at two premier boutique firms in the Houston area and Woodlands. Before he and his business partner opened up Stanfield and Dupre in 2017. He's board certified in estate planning and probates and he concentrates on probate, estate and gift tax planning, business planning, taxation, asset protection and more. Nick's a member of the Houston Business Estate Planning Council and the Disability and Elder Law Attorneys Association and the Woodlands Kiwanis Club. He's a native Houstonian married to his lovely wife, Adrienne. They have four children. Nick's an accomplished pianist and he regularly competes in marathons and other endurance events. He recently completed his third full distance Ironman triathlon. That's crazy. That's what my wife said. So again, Nick, thanks so much for, for meeting me here. I I didn't realize that you play, I knew that you were into endurance sports and I knew that you had done one Ironman, but I didn't know that you were a pianist. So that's kind of neat. Yeah, no, so my mother started me young and that's that's I went to Trinity on a piano scholarship. Wow! Yeah. That's really neat. So let's, let's say that you and I were volunteering at a fundraiser event in the woodland somewhere and we were packing up, and I say, hey, Nick, you seem like a nice guy. What do you do? If you didn't talk about law, if you didn't talk about, like, work, how would you answer that question? Well, that's a good question. So, I always tell people in my elevator speech meeting people is. I am a Christian husband, father and attorney in that order. So that's kind of how I value things. And from my perspective, if I'm doing the top right, everything kind of falls into place when those things start to waver, not so good, but that's kind of where my priorities are for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And so how did you get into law and specifically this aspect of law? You mentioned the piano part. I was a, let's say, wayward, starving artist on the path to being a pianist in college. That's I was, I loved piano. I've been playing it for since I was 4 years old. And I met somebody from the San Antonio symphony, because they would give you free tickets and I started talking to them when they say, like, oh, no, I, I sell insurance during the week. And I do this on the side. I was like, oh. That does not sound exciting. And then I met my, my chemical engineer wife and I were dating and she made kind of a passive comment of like, you know, when are you going to choose a real major besides piano, you know? Oh, okay. So, I didn't do a real job and honestly, I did not know at that point. I was like, well, I guess I need to figure stuff out because I love piano, but I realized I didn't love it that passionately to do in my entire life. Do it for 50 a week. So just concentrated on a political science and I would say, fell into law school as a not sure what I want to do, but I think this is a good path. And then in law school, I will say, so my mother died when I was in undergrad and my dad died when I was in law school. And so I got a taste of the probate estate planning part of it, and that kind of piqued my interest and realized in law school, not many kids are focusing on that. I think, right? So they're. Corporate work or heavy litigator, I'm going to be just, you know, the next best attorney in the world. Who's. But probably the state planning is you take a course or 2 in law school, but it's not highly focused on after my dad's probate, which was. Not a great probate. My mother's was seamless. My dad's nobody was contesting, but I think just the attorney and the communication was a lot different. And so that kind of piqued my interest and then I saw nobody else's focusing on this. And that's for my personality, as I started interviewing other attorneys, I was like, this is a great, I'm not going to be a litigator. I don't have the propensity to argue for the sake of arguing, but this kind of to your point, I think you mentioned earlier, just helping people through a time. That seems overwhelming, but the legal aspect of probate to me is, is pretty simple. So that piqued my interest and then that's all I've ever done since I graduated. That's all so nice and straightforward. But you also experienced it and so you also know what you want to offer your clients and help them avoid. I think that helps a ton for sure. I don't know that I would have chosen that had that not happened. I don't pretend to know what everybody's going through, but I think having just like any life experience, if you've got a taste of it, you kind of can empathize or sympathize a little bit better. And so did you and Brent know each other in school or how did y'all connect? My partner, Brent? No. So we actually, he went to Nebraska and then he came down his 2nd year of law school. And then he and I started working at I got fired from my 1st law firm because I didn't know how to practice law. And then the 2nd firm that hired me, he was already there. And so we worked there for 10 years or so, and then he went off to do something by himself and then came back to the law. And then, as he was doing that, I was like, hey, I'm leaving. You think we could do something together and it's been a great and worked out really well. So, but, yeah, 15 years. And 1 of the things that I think is unique about your partnership and what you bring to your clients is you are so relatable. I mean, I get to talk to a lot of attorneys and and I only work with and refer to people that I know and like, and talk to, but but you guys have, you're very relational. you communicate. Well, you're not, it's not just transactional with you. You're relational. And you do that with me, and I'm sure you do that with your clients. It just seems to be part of who you are, what's important to you. And so I remember when we 1st met and I asked you if you're a litigator and you were like, oh, no, that's not me. And you just said that too. And it's good to know what you're not. But also, because Brent is, you know, you guys don't your clients don't have to change midstream with somebody, so they can start out with you with the estate where you're really getting to know them as people. But if a problem comes up, and they need to go to court to argue something, you've got.. Yeah, absolutely. And Brent does a phenomenal job and he is a great litigator. It's... Personality driven in terms of where you end up in the law, but I would agree with that. And I think that's part of the reason we did end up kind of together is his insight and value on, you know, if I'm doing a probate or drafting a contract his insight on, like, that's a great clause or a great thing to put in there. But I'll tell you, if I end up in the lawsuit, I'm going to tear that apart. So here's something you need to think through. Or when we're applying for a probate, and we think there might be a contest, but we're not sure, like, hey, let's do this extra application to kind of make that a little cleaner. So he's, you're right. He's been invaluable. Yeah, so his foresight into what potentially could be a problem can help direct what you're doing in the present. For sure. My job is a drafter and a state planner is to kind of head as much that office. I can. Right. But, you know, you never know what it's going to look like in quarters, how it's going to turn out when you litigate it. But Brent does because he's done it a million times. Yeah. So it's definitely helpful to have that insight and just just bounce ideas off of right. It's. Always harder to do it by yourself for sure. Yeah. Y'all are very complimentary. So talking about estate plans hear a lot about wills. If you talk to attorneys, you'll hear a lot about trust. Some attorneys are, like, all trusts. Can you describe. What they are just just assume that people are listening that don't know what they are and what they are and how they differ So will versus trust. Probably our most popular question. I'll tell you and it's a good 1. so I will start by telling you an overall scheme of estate planning, we're talking about, I break it up in the boxes, but to me, we're talking

about the 1st box of: 9:43

who gets my stuff if I'm dead period, right? That's that's what's your, what's your world or living trust is for just words on paper that tell us where stuff goes, who's in charge. The primary difference between a will and a living trust is I have to probate a will. And if you do it, right, I do not have to probate a living trust, right? The words on paper are exactly the same. They both say all to my spouse, then to my kids, or then to my kids and trust.

I explain it to people as: 10:13

a will is easier for me and harder for my kids because they've got to go change title and get my name off of accounts on the back end. A trust is harder for me and easier for my kids. I'm doing I'm pre probating and doing all the work now to get it into this trust. And to your point, my opinion, Texas is a will state. Because probate is so simple, will drafted will get you through probate pretty quick. I'm always quick to tell clients jokingly, but sort of not as... attorneys get more money on trusts. So if somebody is just pumping a trust down your throat, maybe make sure we're doing it for the right reasons. But that's the general general concept. Yeah, and I've, I've heard attorneys say that everybody needs a trust and I'm not sure that I agree with that. No, I mean, I think there's a misconception of one probate is four letter word to a lot of people, right? It's they've heard about it. It's miserable. It's terrible. Texas probate is not that's where I start. And if the sole reason is probate avoidance, there are other easier ways to get there. Trust are valuable, and that may be the best option, but in my mind, it's not trust 1st and then will me. It's hey, it's will 1st. Do we need a reason to go to a trust? Maybe, but let's make that analysis before we jump to it. Before I got into this, I was 1 of those who was like, you just hear probably and you just go to nightmare. Like, they're just connected. when I started really looking into this, I thought, why is probate such a bad thing? You're transferring ownership. It seems like. the right thing to do. I think the reason probates gotten such a bad name is because we put it off. We don't plan. Well, and then these nightmares show up. And in people's personalities, you know, their best selves are not always. That's that's true. And I think you hear about the cases that go terribly. I would say 98 percent of probate is not contested. But I'm not going to write a book about an uncontested probate that lasted 30 days. Right? So true. Right. And that's the point of this podcast is to educate people to motivate them to make a plan so that the stress is off of them and their families down the road. And just doing my part here. So, do you have to have an attorney to probate in Texas? Most of the time you do. Some smaller counties will let you do it without an attorney. Most of the larger counties here is Montgomery Fort Bend. They're going to require you to have an attorney to at least get that initial application filed. You used to be able to do it without. I think, since it's so procedure based. If you're not an attorney, you forget an affidavit or forget something silly, and it kind of backlogs the court. So they eventually said, listen, we'd love to help you. I know attorneys are expensive, but if you're going to probate here, you're going to have 1. And you really can't probate. I mean, you don't get a choice. You have to probate in the county Where the residents was, is that correct? Where, where, where they resided or where the bulk of their property is. Okay, okay. Good to know. And so a small estate affidavit, is that something that attorney has to... no. So that's that's 1 piece. So, shifting from kind of probate alternatives in my opinion. And when I say probate to me, we are doing a full application. We're getting somebody appointed as an executor. To your point. Some of the states are small, or we don't have many assets, or we don't need a full administration. Small estate affidavit is 1 of those things you can work with the court on to apply yourself and get all the air signed. And you and you don't plan for those. So, estate planning would involve an attorney and with the thought of either going to probate or having a trust to avoid probate. Yep, absolutely. Okay. Okay. So, if I have a will, can I avoid probate? You can, so I, I explain to people, that's a good question. Common misconception, even sometimes among my clients is, oh, now I have a will. I don't have to go to probate a will just makes probate cleaner, faster, cheaper, right? It gets I explained to clients. It's kind of like your easy tag. You don't have to sit in the line and fumble with change and figure it out. And who knows who's going to do what. We just got it. You zip through. I don't have to go to a judge and say, well, so and so died. I'm not sure where they wanted their assets to go. And I don't know who they wanted to be in charge. I can just show him the document and say, hey, we just need to approve it. Let's move on. Right. And so with a will comes an executor. Yep. Do people do people refer to Executrix anymore, or is just everybody an executor? Most people say just say executor. Yeah, that's what I thought. When I practiced, there were still kind of a distinction, so I probably still say Executrix sometimes, but I would say it confuses my clients. Yeah. Can you talk about independent versus dependent executor? Yeah, so, so in Texas, right, I mentioned probate is pretty clean and pretty simple. That is because we have the option of an independent executor and all that means is that I am independent of the court. So, once I get appointed as the executor, the court doesn't want to hear from me anymore. All right. Their, their public policy is like, listen, if the dead guy trusted you, we're going to trust you. So just go do what you need to do. Go transfer bank accounts, go sell the house, do what you need to do. A dependent administrator, if for some reason we can't get appointed as an independent, there's no will or people are contesting the default option, like, in most states is a dependent administrator. And that's, that's the closest thing. I think to the nightmare probate that people talk about is the, I am dependent on the court meeting. Every time I want to pay an expense or sell a piece of property or do anything with the estate. I've got to get permission from the court. So that's where, yeah, you do end up paying me to file a motion every time we've got to sell real estate. Oh, we've got to pay this bill. We've got to pay these fees. So you're, you're locked into court a lot longer, right? The goal is independent and that's largely what a will kind of does is all you have to put in that document is I want independent administration, those two words. And that's kind of fast tracks. Yeah. So that's 1, that's a lot of people don't understand if they're writing their own when, when we when my husband, so I was avoiding probate. I was not probate. I was avoiding a plan. I did not want to talk about a will. I didn't want to talk about and so eventually I came around and my husband downloaded, you know, a well from some online place. And we got to the question do we want an independent executor or dependent? And we were like, I don't know. We'll let her choose. And so we checked both boxes. No, she doesn't get to choose. Right. Oh man, we've that's not there anymore. But I do want to say, I think another misconception is that if there's an independent executor, that means they get to do whatever they want. That's not true. They still have to follow what's in the will. That's that's true. That's a good point. You're just independent of the court. I mean, you're still within their jurisdiction and if a beneficiary doesn't like it, they can always go back to the court and say, I don't think they're doing the right thing. And you're right. They don't have any discretion to. Not distribute this cash request or not give the property to there's still their primary fiduciary duty is to carry out the decedent's intent. Right? I still got to follow those rules for sure. Right? Good point. And it's not a democracy. So, if there are several beneficiaries listed in the will the executor is the 1 that makes the cut right that they make the call. That's right. Yeah. And that's kind of the advantage right? To me, or the purpose of having a will or having something in place is if I've got, I've got 4 kids, you know, I died 10 years from now. I don't need 4 votes and voices in the room, especially to your point, the stuff that you deal with. I mean, the personal property, the personal stuff bank accounts are easy to divide, but all that personal stuff and like, I want this ring. I want this necklace. The executives there to say, okay, I gave you a shot, but here's what's going to happen. You get this. You get this. You get this period. Can you talk about what somebody wants to think about when they're choosing an executor? Yeah, that's a good question. So I always tell people, I don't care who you choose to make sure it is the best fit for that position and being a good fit for an executor thinking through what they're going to have to do 1. I need you to be organized focus. So somebody who's, you know, a starving artist and, you know, I'll get around to it when I can, not the best person somebody who knows how to manage personalities, right? You're going to be, even if it's family, you're going to be dealing with not just personalities that you've dealt with over the years, but grieving personalities who are affecting you. I tell people, whether you loved your dad or hated your dad when they pass away, there is a. Reaction emotionally, and you're not you're not thinking as clearly as you normally do somebody who can compartmentalize a little bit. Like, I'm grieving, but I need there's a job that needs to be done. And the biggest thing is, you've got to be organized and accountable. So everything that comes in and make sure you're tracking it, in estates that are contested, somebody's going to ask, hey, what happened to this account? Well, I know that there's a 5, 000 dollar charge here. What was that about? Somebody who can stay focused and organized, get the job done. I tell people that, you know, it's not like a trustee where, you know, you're managing a trust long term. I don't need you to be super financially savvy, but can you organize debts and assets, pay the debts, manage your siblings or whoever your beneficiaries are, and then as promptly as we can, in my mind, just get in and out of probate, get the assets to everybody, somebody focused. Right. Because life doesn't start just because, I mean, stop, because probate is there. You still have to go to soccer games. You still have to do all the things. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I tell people it's kind of a, it's a part time job for about 90 days. 90 days would be great. What can you do to make your executors life easier when they're trying to do all this? That's a great question and I wish more clients listened to attorneys or just thought practically about it. You know, in addition to just having a will. Or something a place that tells us tells us where to go. Just a, I call it a letter of instruction. Some people call it an I love you letter. But the best thing that I can do for my executor is just keep an updated list of all of my assets where they are all of my passwords all of my usernames and ideally to me a 1 page piece of paper. And if I have never met you in my life. And you appointed me as executor, I can pick up that paper. I know exactly where your bank accounts are, what real estate you own, how to log into your social media, how to log into your bank accounts. That's it. It's intimidating for people to kind of put that on, on paper and stuff, but it is going to make your executor's job a million times easier and smoother. And I'm not, I don't have to track down credit reports or tax returns or figure out, do you still have this policy? Do you still have this account? And because as soon as somebody passes away and the fisheries will be asking questions and even in states that are uncontested, there's always a, a sentiment of, well, dad always told me, or mom said, we had this or what happened to this account. Mentally not thinking well, that was 5 years ago and their brain. It's. She just told me this, I just need them. You can say it's secular. Here's. What there is, here's what we're going to do exactly. Don't have to spend the next 2 weeks calling around and figuring out where the accounts are. It's yeah. And it sounds like a simple kind of silly thing, but thinking practically and having experienced it. When, when your loved one dies, you are not thinking or wanting to think about that stuff and you're not always thinking practically, you know, it's the clients always like, what should I do? Like, we'll call the credit Bureau or, you know, look at check the mail and then they're like, oh, I didn't think about that because your dad just died. You don't want them to have to focus the whole point of all of this planning. It's just to make that transition as clean and smooth as possible. So, to me, you can focus on the more important things, which is grieving your dad or your mom, or just the kind of technical transferring property material stuff. Let's make that as clean as we can. Yeah, you know, I've, I've done a lot of work with grief and how it affects us through the years and, and part of it is we can't just jump from I'm going to work my 8 to 5 job and then I'm going to jump into doing what I need to do it as an executor and prep. Like, when we're grieving, we need time to just stare off in the ocean. You know, we need time to just. I mean, we don't have to do anything we need to make margin in our room in our heads and in our hearts to recalibrate what's just happened. There's a change. And I think that's a great point. And we, we, I don't say partner, but we started kind of making relationships with grief counselors in the area for that reason. I wish we'd done it sooner, but to my point earlier, you know, we get a lot of people are like, well, I just, I didn't have a relationship with him and I'm, I'm just the executive. Like, I know you didn't, but there's still an emotional connection and whether that's I love them, or I hated them. You've got to have time to manage and work through that. And people often underestimate what's going on mentally, and I can do this and this and this all at the same time. How much does probate cost Nick? For uncontested? I would, I would tell you there's probably a range of. 1500 to 3500, I would say most good attorneys, in my opinion, if it's uncontested, will flat fee it. I know the time frame. I know the courts. I know what I need to file. If it's contested, or we think there's going to be an issue, maybe you're looking at more 5 to 10, 000, right? You're going to do it hourly. But to my earlier point, I would say 97 to 98 percent of probates are uncontested and you're just working through it. Just moving through it. So, what about estate taxes? I've heard, you know, that's another thing people talk about death taxes and and I don't know if that's true for Texas or not. Can you talk about... yeah, good question. Estate taxes have become. I would say less of an issue these days, always good to issue spot, but the estate taxes, essentially the federal government taxing you on the privilege to transfer property to your beneficiaries. So, there's no, there's no state level tax in Texas, a state tax or inheritance tax. Each state is different. So, if you pass away somewhere else, you got to make that examination, but there is a federal estate tax that applies across the board and the way it works is. If I die and I own over a certain value of property, I owe that tax. If I own value of my estate is less than that amount, I don't owe that tax and I don't even have to file a return. So, and it used to be, you know, that number 20 years ago was 600, 000. So, if I had a million dollar life insurance policy, I was already over that amount and I didn't have to plan for it. Today, it is 12. 9 million per person. So, it's. Just skyrocketed over the years. That's why I say it's not as much of an issue these days for most people good to just issue spot and make sure we don't have that issue. But it's just not as much of a planning point these days. Right? So 1. so that makes me think that you know, a lot of a lot of when people are spewing out negative things about probate and death taxes and, you know, all the issues that they're having. And then you get all this chatter from other people who could live in other states. Who could have experienced this 10 or 15 years ago, and things have changed since then. And so some of the drama around this season comes from getting bad information from from outdated material or from people that aren't pertinent to this. To Texas and our area of Texas. And so that's another reason why I like this podcast, because it's current, you guys, you're what you're talking about is right now. I love that. So, what's, can you share an unusual or a complicated case that you've worked on and give us an idea of, of how y'all made a difference for a family? You know, the one that comes to mind immediately is we recently did a case. It's probate where I'll tell you it's probate related. But they, this is very, very rare case. I think even in for my experience was a husband went missing and the wife was left with, you know, everything was in his name. He made all the money. He was the CFO of the family and they, they had video of him in his truck driving down. I 45. And then I lost track of him and he is not you still technically missing. It's been 4 years. Oh, wow. But the wife at that time was not ready to, you know, you can declare somebody deceased. If we suspect foul play, or we haven't had heard from him in a certain period of time, but she was obviously, she's not ready to say, yes, he's dead. Let's go to probate. But 1 to your point on just keeping her focused and honestly, being available. I feel like half of my half of my job is really just fielding phone calls and meeting with people saying. You're doing fine. You're doing the right thing. So I think we did. I think we did a good job of that. In addition to finding a creative solution that did not involve tying her to the court. For the next 10 years and having to account to the court and getting a kind of de facto power of attorney in place. He didn't have any play, you know, anything in place that said, if I dropped out of becoming incapacitated, here's who I want to be in charge. You know, he didn't have the will that said, if I'm dead, here's who gets my stuff. He had a power of attorney from another state that was 15 years old. That appointed somebody who had passed away, so the default would be well, we've got to get some kind of guardianship in place. But, I mean, how do you do that? When the person is not technically gone? We don't even know where they are. Right, so I, I was part of our firm, not necessarily me, but our firm as a whole kind of figuring out a. Creative solution to balance the, hey, you can't just wait and sit for him to come back. We don't know where he is. I don't know why he did what he did or what happened, but we've got to slowly move forward without pulling her into a litigation court process. And so she's got what she needs in terms of control of assets. She can declare him deceased when she's ready. But I thought 1, it was unique case, even for us. And, you know, kind of tested my legal knowledge and theories of. Okay, well, he is not dead. He's not technically incapacitated. We don't really know what's going on. Right. So how strange it was. It was, fun is not the right word. I, I enjoyed being able to help her challenge and think outside the box. Yeah, for sure. The challenge was, yep. Yeah, a lot of puzzle pieces there. You guys had to figure out what to put where and how to benefit without looking without having a live to look at the picture. Well, that's that's right. And I think people underestimate the 3rd parties involved in any estate, the banks, the title companies. You know, that's that's kind of who you're dealing with. Right with walls and powers of attorney, it's I have it on paper, but will they accept it? How do I get it passed an underwriter in New York or a title company in Florida? And so it was a fun challenge certainly unique and they're always kind of the. You know, contested matters or a child who shows up that nobody knows about the work through, but that was a, it's an interesting case that came up recently. That is really interesting. So, 1 of my goals with the podcast here, you know, is to educate on the terms and the procedures of estate planning and policies so that people can know what to expect. And we take some of the mystery, some of the stigma, maybe away from these topics that are so difficult for us that a lot of us want to avoid myself included before and now look what I'm doing. But, you know, how do you see from your seat? How do you see? What I do as helping your clients, how can we talk a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think I mentioned it before the podcast started, but you do a phenomenal job. So I don't know how well you take compliments, but with all of our clients, I'm thrilled to have you as a resource in a, in a industry that I don't know how many people do that, or if they do, they overcharge for it, in my opinion, but I say, I tell people I do the legal technical side of... I'm going to get the assets transferred. I'm going to work through court. Let me do all that. Talk to the judges and other attorneys. We will get all the technical title stuff done as, you know, that is a, in my mind, that's kind of a small part of the probate process. There's also the grieving and all the other assets and property and moving parts. Could I do that? Probably. Do you want to pay me by the hour to come to your family? Probably not. But so all of that, I call it probably the dirty work, the nitty gritty, the walking, you know, they'll come to my office for an hour, probate court in an hour, there are 23 other hours in the day, and there's lots of other stuff to do. And that's where, to me, you are coming in as an invaluable resource just to walk them through, I think the case you worked on recently. You're a hoarder and what do I do with this house to I live out of state. I've got property here. What am I supposed to do with this property? The personal, I don't want it. How do I contact to get rid of. This table, all of that kind of coordinating and negotiating and kind of. I think of you as so you're kind of the general contractor of the probate. You're kind of like, hey, we have this asset. Okay. Let me find the best way to do that. So you don't have to think about it. You can just grieve talk to your family and I will take care of all that stuff. That's pretty, pretty difficult to work through. Yeah, thank you. Nick. I appreciate that. And I appreciate the feedback. It's also been really nice to work with you and your team. To know that I can, I can encourage the people that I'm working with. And point them back to, because I know that I know how you guys are going to follow through. So it is nice to work with. with your team as well. What's it like when somebody calls to set up a first, you know, let's say, let's they're finally agreeing to do an estate plan. So let's talk about what their first consultation would be with you and then follow ups to that and maybe how long it would take before they would actually have everything signed and notarized. Yeah, that's a good question. So leading up to the console, we try to just tag them with kind of an intake form, not necessarily for all information, but just to get them thinking about. These topics, and I tell people, I don't, you don't need to fill that thing out. But if you walk in, not thinking about any of this, it's not going to be a productive conversation. Right? Right. But just getting them thinking through. Okay. Who are my beneficiaries? Who don't want to be in charge? Who's the guardian? So, that goes out probably a week before the meeting meeting itself is probably an hour or less. And I just, I walked them through the buckets of, hey, who gets your stuff? What if you're incapacitated? Do we have any asset protection concerns? And for most people, at the end of that, my goal at the end of that meeting is to give them a recommendation of a, you need a will as an attorney or, you know, what you probably do need a living trust to kind of consolidate prevent contests, give them a flat fee in writing. I'll send a follow up email that same day. Again, people hearing this stuff for the 1st time will sometimes get overwhelmed or just forget as soon as they walk out the door to your point. They have thought about this for 3 to 5 years, you know, just now kind of getting to it. So same day follow up. And then we have a 1 week, 2 week, full week touch process. You know, it's kind of keeping them. We have found statistically, if. I can get you in drafted and signed within 30, 45 days, you will have an estate plan, and it's going to be great past that you're going to fall back mentally into. I don't want to deal with this in their mind. I checked the box. Well, I got to the next step. I talked to an attorney. Like, and I have, so it's not depressing, but frustrating to me to see the plans that we have drafted and ready to sign. And they just can't come in for 15 minutes. They get it executed even after like, hey, you know, this is not in place yet. You've got to get it executed, but that's our process. It's always on a flat fee. I think that. The max we charge is probably 2000 bucks. Most good estate plans are probably 750 ish. And, and does your does your plan include the powers of attorney and those other? Yeah, so any basic plan to me is wills, powers of attorney, guardian, transfer on death deed if you need it. Disposition of remains if you have specific cremation requests. Yeah, I call it any, any ancillary document. We're happy to include. And the changes within 5 years are complimentary. I think people get not intimidated, but they don't want to think about it. So, even if. You know, there's, I want to change my executor. It's like, oh, it's going to be another fee or I don't want to think about this again. So we'll touch base with clients once a year, just with the letter or phone call and say, hey, anything changed? Do we need to think about it again? Just going to be as proactive as we can. I can't force you to come in. But, you know, I think most people, the biggest compliment I always get is, oh, that was easier than I thought. Like, oh, I wish I'd done this sooner. Like, it really is just super simple to put down on paper because most people know. What they want to happen, I think what's going to happen. So, yeah, yeah, I think you said something. That's really important to just kind of highlight and that is, you've got all this drafted, but it's not executed until it's signed. Yeah, nothing, nothing, of course, until you actually sign on the deadline. So, Wow, that's a, that's a big, that's a big thing. That's a big, big thing because. That means there is no will until it's executed. That's exactly right. I cannot I cannot take an unsigned will to a judge and say, of course, this intent. I know they want it to unfortunately. Right. And I don't, I don't think it's, I thought 1 or 2 clients who actually think like, oh, I thought it was in force. Most people are just like, well, that was the next step. I'll get to signing at some point. So, I think we annoy some of our clients with our phone calls and emails, but it's. It's important to me to, I mean, I'd rather you. Some people are like, well, I haven't paid yet. But then don't pay . Come in and sign it. I'd rather you have something in place so you're not having, your kids are gonna have to pay me more on the backend. Right. If you don't go something on paper. Oh man, you've gone through all of this, which is the hardest part. That's exactly. Just come in and sign it. Yes. And really it's only hard. It was hard for me because I had to stop and think about who I wanted to do what, and that was it's not hard, like manual labor. It's just. Stuff I don't want to think about. So. If someone is listening and they're on the fence about making a plan for whatever reason, maybe they're in their thirties and they're thinking, I'm too young you know, I'm too busy or they're in their fifties and they're just, you know, whatever. What would you say to them to encourage them to get off the fence? And go ahead and move forward with that plan. Well, I will say it's not it's not how much you have is what you have. That's a comment. Like, I don't have enough of a state. If you've got a house and a bank account, you need something on paper, right? If you've got a bank account, a car, something on paper. So, that's not and to to a point earlier, it's, it is probably the easiest thing that you will ever do. We can a good attorney to me will help you think through. Right away, we kind of. Intimidating aspect of either meeting with an attorney thinking about what if I dropped dead just making it easier for your beneficiaries. I hit home with a lot of people when I talk about, like, you, you want this to be. Easier for you and harder for your beneficiaries, or do you want it to be as easy as possible for. Your kids, your spouse, whoever you're leading it to most people, I don't want to leave a big burden then. Get something on paper that eases that burden and makes it a little sooner to me. There's no, I don't think you could do in a state plan too soon. Right? You're 20, Most people don't do it till a 50-60 close to retirement. I would love it. If people did it 25, 28, 30. Right. And you, you just made another good point to about if you've got a car and a bank account. So, even if you have an apartment, if you don't have a house or property, you still have an estate and you still want to. You still have stuff that you need to pass down. So, somebody's got to close out that stuff. Right, right. Talk to the apartment landlord trying to deal with the vehicle or the Chase Bank of America, whatever. Right. Nick, how can people connect with you? Where do they find you? Website is best I'm always probably most responsive via email. I know that we have a LinkedIn that. My staff is fantastic about updating and I never seen in my life, but I know people use it. I think we've got a Facebook also, but website and email is probably the best. Okay, and that's Stanfield and Dupre dot com stanfielddupre.Com. That's right. All right. Oh, I wanted to say that I read an article that you wrote. And you said something like you need people every step of the way. It's okay to ask for help. And I thought that that was really. Really important to to underline Nick, is there something that you feel like we should have talked about and maybe didn't. Is there something about the state planning or your firm that you feel like needs to be said? No, I don't I don't think so. The most important part we hit on earlier was just. What I wish that most people would do was have that love letter, letter of instruction to my executor that makes it easy for me to find assets, log into bank accounts and Facebook and stuff like that. But that's a good way to end it. Yeah, I think it's, I would encourage people, whether estate planning or probate, it is okay to ask for help. And I, you know, in my mind, having something rather than nothing is great. I don't mind do it yourself wills or something. Let me let an attorney take a peek at it. 75 percent of people don't have any estate planning or that's the statistic that comes out every year. So, but everybody has kids assets bank accounts. Right? So. I would love it if I had less work to do, meaning more people had an estate plan. So, right? Right. For sure. Nick, thank you so much for your time today. Again, I enjoy time with you. And yeah, I appreciate your help in doing this and we will see you around the woodland somewhere. Thank you so much.