Breaking the Cycle: An Aerospace Engineer's Guide to Overcoming Overthinking

Ever feel like you're stuck in your head, cycling through thoughts and worries over and over again? You're not alone. I recently had the pleasure of chatting with aerospace engineer Roger Mikhail, who illuminated his personal struggles with overthinking and how it permeated every facet of his life. Roger's analytical mind, honed in his engineering studies, proved to be a double-edged sword, often turning him into a victim of his own thoughts. 

During our enlightening conversation, Roger shared invaluable insights into the primary triggers of overthinking and how a lack of patience, trust, and unresolved trauma fuel this vicious cycle. He also unveiled the strategies he employed to break free from this mental trap. The one that personally resonated with me was his emphasis on rebuilding self-trust, a crucial step towards quieting the noise within our minds and learning to have faith in the divine plan. 

As we ventured further, Roger bravely unpacked the dangers lurking in the shadows of overthinking - from the stifling fear of perfectionism to the paralyzing dread of regret, guilt, and shame. He revealed how the relentless pursuit of material success could become a breeding ground for anxiety, a sentiment amplified by the unprecedented challenges of the global pandemic. His story about a life-altering book that helped him navigate his overthinking labyrinth was a poignant reminder that sometimes, the key to freeing ourselves from the shackles of our mind lies in the wisdom of others.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Salt and Light podcast. Today it's episode number four. Thank you all for tuning in for all the last three. Here's more better content with Rojim Khayel. Rojim, I want to let you present yourself and also tell us why did you pick today's episode.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Thank you, michael, for having me on the show. My name is Rojim Khayel and I'm an aerospace engineer. I'm 28 years old. The subject that I picked today is the overthinking mind, and the reason why I picked this subject is because I myself, for the longest time, was struggling with an overthinking mind, and I know quite a lot of people who also do so. I wanted not only to be an eye-opener to others, but to also remind myself of where I was and where I want to be.

Speaker 1: 0:48

I feel like you went through a lot, but tell us, what was the maybe first time that you realized you were an overthinker or you were struggling with overthinking?

Speaker 2: 1:00

I can't remember the first time because I feel like I've always been an overthinker, but I can remember like situation that like where I slap across the face. I remember one day in my previous previous job, my boss called me and actually sent me a message on Teams and told me can you come into my office tomorrow? And so I'm such an overthinker. I started overthinking. Why does he want to see me? Is he not satisfied with my work? Am I getting fired?

Speaker 2: 1:29

And so overthinking got me up all night preparing my CV and applying for jobs, because I was so convinced that tomorrow my boss is going to fire me. And so the next day I go and I sit in front of him and he tells me I'm very happy with your work and one of our colleagues was resigning, so he was asking me if I wanted to take more tasks of his tasks. And so this was such a slap across my face because I told myself right now at that second I'm such a prisoner of my own thoughts I am overthinking. I wasted 10, 15 hours of my life preparing CVs and applying for jobs when I did not need to do all this. So this was sort of like an eye opener of I need to change something.

Speaker 1: 2:17

And it's true that we all work because I went through this also and tell us what could have you done differently to just be prepared, because being called by your boss is not the easiest message because you know that maybe you're in trouble, you did something and he's going to you know like he's going to tell you about it and you're going to be reprimanded because of it, and there's a lot of moments that we're going to. We worry about the bad, the worst or the bad moments, because we don't want to get hurt. How do you put those two together Not being ready but also not worry as much as being crumpled, being stopped like this.

Speaker 2: 3:07

I mean, I understand your question but for an overthinker, regardless of even if you're doing so great and everything is perfectly fine and you're working hard, you're going to overthink everything and overthinker things. That, for an average person, is very silly. An overthinker can overthink a text message. Why did this person not put an imaging inside the text message? And they would stay for hours contemplating is this person upset? Is this person mad? So, regardless of what's going on, an overthinker is going to overthink, regardless of how he prepared he is, of how straight he's working or walking or doing.

Speaker 1: 3:50

I'm with you because when I was preparing and there's stats that I wasn't really surprised because I know a lot of overthinker. I am also an overthinker and I overthink a lot of things, and in the Harvard Medical School, dr Natalia says that 73% of 25 between 25 and 35 year old are chronically overthinking and 52% of the people between 45 and 55 are also overthinking. So there's a lot of overthinking there. So I know that it's something that applies to a lot of people. But there is a lot of causes that brings us to overthinking, to worry. What were the ones that?

Speaker 1: 4:36

were your week like what were the ones that causes you to overthink, other than the? You know I understand that extreme moments with your bosses or things that most of us, even though I'm not overthinking, is going to push me to worry, but what, in your environment, was the causes of your overthinking?

Speaker 2: 4:57

I believe there are three reasons that I personally have experienced or have noticed on myself, but other people have different things Lack of patience I'm a person who is absolutely not patient, and so this lack of patient makes me always want to know what's happening, what's, what's about to happen next, so it causes me to overthink a lot. The second thing is lack of trust. Whether it's lack of trust in God or lack of trust in others, makes me unable you know, I can't trust person A or person B, so I'm going to overthink what's going to happen or what happened. And the last thing is trauma. Past bad experience can cause you to overthink so much and cause a lot of anxiety, and I feel like overthinking and anxiety are like byproduct of each other 100% with you.

Speaker 1: 5:54

and patience. You're telling me patience, trust. And what was the third one? Trauma, trauma. We've talked about trauma already. Tell me patience is something that I did not think of, but I see that as well.

Speaker 1: 6:14

the issue of overthinking, because you want to know the answer now what is going on around you in the present, even, not even in the past, but with trust, trauma and and and patience. What can we do? What are the? What did you do to go through all of this and to go beyond of that? Like this is not a few days of overthinking, we're talking about years. And like I've been through going through this for years and sometimes I do fall in overthinking and I just stress myself out. Did this person mean that in the attacks or did this happen because of this? The time that took someone to write a text is also possible. What can we tell people to say like, okay, it's going to be okay, but without being so corny of it's going to be okay. What can we? What can we do to help people to be like I'm giving you the truth.

Speaker 2: 7:12

From my experience, the answer to this is lies in understanding what an overthinker is. So an overthinker is a person who does not live in the moment, constantly living either in the past or in the future. If you're living in the past, you're really living situations that happened, and sometimes it's caused of trauma. If you're living in the future, it's because you're worried or anxious about what's going to happen. So you really need to understand where are you? Are you thinking about situations that happened in the past or the future? If we're thinking about the past and something that happened, you need to understand that the past is there for you to learn from it, not to relive it. Once you have learned from it, you move on. You do not look back at it. And if you're living in the future, you need to understand that the future is there for you to hope for it, not to be anxious about it. And that's my intake from all those years of overthink.

Speaker 1: 8:22

I'll be the other side telling you, but there's so much trauma in my past that I cannot just learn from it. But I know it's repetitive because it did repeat itself. History repeats itself. So if my past is going to happen again, I need to be cautious and that's the word that we will always use as being cautious of what is going to happen from people. For example, a bad relationship. This happened, x, y, z happened. There's cheating, there's this. I'm going to come in and in the next relationship I'll be aware I'll be even overly cautious and precautious. I'm going to be precautious about what I'm going to say or do with that person before getting closer and getting in the wrong path no, not even wrong path, just getting vulnerable for her to hurt me again. And I'm going to repeat this because I'm in a new relationship and this is the recipe for overthinking.

Speaker 2: 9:27

You don't need to be cautious, you have to learn from it. You have to learn that, for example, if that person does this and that and that this is called red flags, learn from those red flags and if you notice them in the next relationship, then you stop them right away. But being cautious and then overthinking this person is taking so much time to text. Are they not serious? Are they interested? Are they not interested? It makes you overthink and it makes you stay up all night for nothing. The key to this is communication. Communicate with the other person. Hey, I know you're not really a good textor, but I kind of like, if you like, respond quite fast. I don't know. You know communication helps a lot with overthinkers.

Speaker 1: 10:13

Letting them know at least that you have that issue, so that if there's any bad moments that you're not able to handle overthinking, or you are in the middle of overthinking and you're erratic, at least they're going to be there to support because you're at 10% of your capacity and they're going to come with the 90%. But did you find that? Were you able to be able to say, guys, I'm an overthinker without being a red flag? Because I feel like overthinking is also a red flag. On the other side, as much as I am writing down the red flags that I see from people, from my overthinking, I feel like if my overthinking was also a red flag for some, that's a problem. So is it a red flag?

Speaker 2: 11:05

first of all, it could be a red flag If overthinking is not treated. I'm saying as if overthinking was a disease. But if you do not bring it up to the other person or the person in front of you whether it's a friend or a partner and you let them know I'm an overthinker, it's going to take me time to trust you. Then it's going to become a red flag for them. They might not be able to live with it. But it's very important to understand that if you have a friend or a partner or whatever it is, that's an overthinker.

Speaker 2: 11:40

To be patient, because they're going to put you through so many tests, they're going to take a lot of your effort. But once you have reached that point where they trust you so much, it's a whole new level. It's a game changer. You become the center of their life, if I can put it that way. So again, it's going back to the point that I was mentioning, as communication is opening up to the other person, whether it's a friend or a partner, whatever it is, and telling them listen, I'm an overthinker, it takes me time to trust people. I come from trauma, I come from lack of patience, I come from lack of trust, and so I need you to be patient. Now, if the other person doesn't want to be patient, you've done your part right. What can you do?

Speaker 1: 12:33

So it's a clear message that it wasn't going to work anyways. Because you're still that person, You're going through that. I don't want to say problem, because it's not. It's not, you're not a problem, You're. You're just going through something and you're dealing with it and you're growing from it. My question to you is what can?

Speaker 1: 12:53

Now that we know and I, I acknowledged that I I have an overthinking issue, what is my first? What can I do? I'd like we communicated. People around me know or might not know, but as a person me myself and I I wanted to work with that team. I want to do something to help myself get out of that whole of everything. Because, when I think of it, overthinking is like digging a hole on your, in your, with yourself, with thoughts and questions and on ending, it's like an endless conversation that I have with myself because there's no answers. So there's more questions and as like more that I'm digging, there's more question there. So what can I do to stop digging, Like literally leaving the, the, the digging action task and started getting up or clearing my head with this? How can I do that?

Speaker 2: 13:49

I wish I could tell you that there is a recipe that you can follow and that's it. Um, there is no recipe. It takes time. It's not something easy. You need to sit with yourself and know why you're overthinking. If it's like interest in God, then you need to address it. For example, I noticed that I have a huge problem with trusting in God or trusting in God's plan. I can recite you the verse, for I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope in the future. I know it by heart, but can I apply it in my life? Can I live this verse?

Speaker 2: 14:25

It's extremely difficult for an overthinker to live this verse. So what can I do? What do I do? I, personally? I write down. I write down everything that I have been through, everything that I thought was impossible, that I was not going to get out of it. I write it down, and so I stand in front of the mirror and I tell myself, roger, in your face, you thought that it was not going to happen, you thought that it was impossible. Look, read this and read that and that and that and that, until I'm able to rebuild the trust because, as we were mentioning earlier, an overthinker has a problem with trusting others. So until I'm able to rebuild this trust for God, then I can reach a point where I can blindly close my eyes and tell him lead me, I trust you. And so, whenever something happens, I don't need to overthink anymore because I know he has a plan for my life.

Speaker 1: 15:28

So I write. So writing was before writing, because I feel like writing. Did you start writing recently, or has it been an activity that you've been doing for a long time?

Speaker 2: 15:42

I started let's say a year that I started writing.

Speaker 1: 15:46

Before that, before the writing, what was the other solutions for you to be able to cope with overthinking and still be functional? Because people, the extreme version of overthinking is it will crumbles you and will not make you functional at all. So I'm happy, like I know you for a long time and you've been functional and you've been more than functional. Functional is just that.

Speaker 2: 16:15

You can say that I've been functional, but inside I could not functioning at all. Maybe the outside is completely different from what a person can be going through. I could look very good, I look very happy, but inside I'm overthinking everything. I'm overthinking the shirt, the color of the shirts you're wearing right now.

Speaker 1: 16:33

As an example. No, it's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 16:37

Let's just put this this way If overthinking was a game and there was levels, I would be the creator of the game.

Speaker 1: 16:47

But it's a strong statement and I want to ask you why did you think that of yourself?

Speaker 2: 16:53

It's just, I tend to analyze everything and I believe that this overthinking could be useful when, for example, I studied engineering, right, and it was very useful for me during my capstone year, for example, to overthink everything in my design, because if I did not overthink the heat transfer or the choice of material or this or that, I was not going to have a good design right, and this sort of shaped me a little bit. So I became able. I became a person who analyzes everything. Everything. People say everything, people write everything, people do the way they trust I analyze, and so it made me such a huge overthinker that, yeah, and would you say that you were communicating, that you were overthinking, or is it something that you kept to yourself?

Speaker 2: 17:53

It is something that I kept for myself. But then, slowly, people started noticing, Slowly. I had friends who came to me and told me you're overthinking this way too much. It doesn't need this much overthinking. And so when I listened to them and I started again analyzing what they're saying, I noticed that you know what I'm actually an overthinker.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Do you think that they were positive, to tell you where their comments positive to you, or do you feel like because I know that overthinking are going to take everything negatively? They're going to think about everything in a fearful way. Now that you dug your head out of it, do you feel like their comments were positive or negative? Were they actually helping you or were they trying to tell you you have an issue, like you need to work on it and stress you about it?

Speaker 2: 18:52

I don't think all the comments are negative. Some people. It depends who you're listening to. You have to be able to distinguish between a comment that's positive.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Were you able to do that? Yeah, distinguished between the positive and the negative, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 19:07

You know you take all the comments and you just filter them. You filter whether this person really wants to see me as a good person or this person just wants to give me negative comments. But no, I think I was able in my life to distinguish whether a comment is constructive or not and work on myself. This is what helped me realize and notice that I'm an overthinker and I need to work on myself. I need to figure out why I'm an overthinker and how I can change my life.

Speaker 1: 19:44

But I love that you realized that deep down, because you know what. I have a whole list of causes of overthinking. There's a lot like there is a lot and 75% of people that are overthinking. You have a lot of causes possible. But I love and maybe that was not something that I thought of. But or even I found you found that you lack trust with God. I'm going to ask you, how did you realize that and why do you think that that your main root of overthinking was a lack of trust between you and your own God?

Speaker 2: 20:28

Because I think I'm a person who likes to be in control of everything. So, being that person, it's difficult for me to trust in an averse that says I have a plan for you. Well, okay, it's as if you know. Let me give you an example. It's as if you go to university and you have your professor come to you and tell you here's that course outline. If you follow this and you follow me, you're going to succeed. I'm kind of a person who's going to be like okay, maybe I'm not going to follow the professor, I'm going to read the book and I'm going to work on my own. Now, you could do that. It doesn't guarantee that you're going to pass, but your professor is going to stand there watch you fail and then you're going to wait for you to come to them, right?

Speaker 1: 21:13

Some will challenge you and tell you that I'll do the book, and actually some classes are do like you would actually rather do the book than the professor, because the professor is going to mix you up and just follow the book and you're going to still pass Cause I feel like correct.

Speaker 2: 21:28

And I'm not saying that overthinking is always negative. You could overthink things. Let me actually take you through the process of what an overthinker do. Maybe this will be more clear for you. So an overthinker let's say there is a situation that happened. An overthinker is going to live in it over and over and again and redo scenarios. Maybe I should have said that. What if I said that? And he replied in that way? I should have replied that way and then jump to the next scenario. Maybe I should have done that, and if he did that, then I could.

Speaker 2: 22:05

That becomes like a tree and it becomes like a storm. There is like a French expression that says in tornado, or like a tornado in a cup of water becomes like that. And so sometimes you will fall on a scenario that actually benefits you. If it's something in the future, for example, you say, if this happens, then I'm going to do this, and if that happens, I'm going to do this. And if that happens and this is what goes through the mind of an overthinker, right, so it could happen that a certain scenario actually happens and benefit you. It's the same thing with the school example that I gave you. Right, you could follow the book and you could succeed. But you could also follow the professor, follow the course outline and have it much easier.

Speaker 1: 22:54

So then, what was in the course outline from God that made you not going to take the outline? Is it God himself or is it just like? I understand that you were thinking everything, but I actually respect that. You said it was my trust in God's plan. Now, from there, what did you do to make it happen? How did you rebuild that trust with God? Because he doesn't have an outline in hand, or does he Exactly?

Speaker 2: 23:27

And this is what's the problem is that you're unable to see what's going to happen, and I, like I was saying earlier, is that I don't have patience. I need to know. You can't come and tell me I have a plan for you without telling me what the plan is. I really need to know the plan and I really need to know what's going to happen in the next hour. Don't come and tell me. Trust me, I want to trust you, I really do want to trust you, but it's difficult. I need to overthink this. When I finish the show right now, what am I going to do next? I need to plan it. I need to be ready. So, again, this is understanding that I need to live in the moment helps a lot, because I'm constantly living in the future. I'm living 10 steps ahead. No, and this is what what God tells you like you don't have to live in the future.

Speaker 2: 24:20

There's like a very beautiful verse that I keep on reminding myself of it, and especially during Lent. The church reminds us of this verse so many times, whether it's in readings or whether it's in hymns during Vespers praise, and the verse is very beautiful. It says, therefore do not worry about tomorrow, but tomorrow will worry about its own Right, sufficient for the day. It's own trouble Right. This is like the key to an overthinker and I believe the British. They took this verse and they made their own version of it and they said do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you. I can see the resemblance. It's don't think about a problem that doesn't exist yet. Don't live in the future and think about something that didn't exist yet. Wait for it to exist, wait for it to happen and then figure it out, or we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Speaker 1: 25:21

Yeah, we hear that a lot, and so then with with God, ok, so tell us maybe a situation that you felt like overthinking was actually helpful, and how not worrying could actually been even more better.

Speaker 2: 25:43

Say that again, sorry.

Speaker 1: 25:44

I was. No, no worries. Tell us a story of maybe a situation that you went through that overthinking was still a positive way to to use or to be. But not worrying or not even thinking about living in the moment is even better, because, like there's always going to be, overthinking is bad, then this is better, it's. It's. It's black and white, but sometimes we like, well, overthinking helps, and we've said it today in multiple times, overthinking helps, but I still want to be like no, it actually never is better than this, like it's always better to use that than even that moment.

Speaker 2: 26:28

Yeah, and whenever I have like a conversation. There is recently someone that messaged me and said hey, I'm going to call you at that time, I want to speak with you and so I'm overthinking making scenarios and I'm preparing myself because I feel like that person is going to be talking about a certain subject and I need to prepare myself.

Speaker 2: 26:50

And so I prepared myself the right way and I felt and I was lucky that I was right we were going to talk about that subject and I was ready with my arguments and everything. But I could have also lived in the moment and went with it and saved myself a lot of energy and a lot of the trouble of thinking about all this.

Speaker 1: 27:14

Have you ever received this? We always receive that. We need to talk.

Speaker 2: 27:17

That we need to talk, of course.

Speaker 1: 27:20

It makes you like OK, this is my.

Speaker 2: 27:21

Let me take a pause and overthink this for the next 15 hours or until that person actually calls me. We need to talk.

Speaker 1: 27:28

We need to talk text message. Oh yeah, it's like the recipe for disaster. It is always disaster. That's the worst thing. No, no, no, not necessarily it could be.

Speaker 2: 27:38

we need to talk about service. We need to talk about sleeping early, because you know we stay up all night talking, for example. I think we should.

Speaker 1: 27:47

I think we should. I think the 75% of people that are going through overthinking should vote to take out. We need to talk text.

Speaker 2: 27:54

Yeah, of course that is my one is allowed to say it anymore.

Speaker 1: 28:01

A lot of hurt was created through overthinking and I I found like a mini recipe from Forbes. I'm going to, I'm going to try to like, I'm going to just in a minute and tell me, would you do that or did you do that and how did you do it? How, if I did, yes? So they go with six steps except and then or deny your thoughts. Either you accept it or you deny it. So it just a simple task. Number two is retrain your brain in your off time meditation. Number four get out of your head and into your body. Five do a brain dump, like you said, I know that you did. And six immerse yourself in nature. That's pretty much how, and that's again from a doctor in.

Speaker 1: 28:56

Natalie the Tilo PhD from the Harvard Medical School. So I'm pretty sure she knows what she's talking about because she's the psychologist in Boston and professor of psychology. So pretty heavy. But she says take worry, for example, which is a hallmark feature of generalized anxiety disorder. Do you feel like you've done that?

Speaker 2: 29:21

I feel like on many occasions, like I said, when I used to write and I used to struggle with overthinking, that I would read it and so tell myself don't overthink it. So I think this is the first point of accepting is accept or deny your thoughts. I'm not going to think about it because I read that God has a plan for me and and he has showed me with so many situations that he has a good plan for me. So I'm not going to think about it. So I accept or deny my thoughts.

Speaker 1: 29:51

So I believe yes, makes sense these points have ever went through, because when I read this, the first thing that I thought of is you know those, those thoughts when you're like, oh, did I leave my oven open?

Speaker 2: 30:03

And like yes, and then? You start to try to remember, but you need to go back and it's just as you so much.

Speaker 1: 30:09

Oh my God, no way Did I leave it actually open or closed. But that's a simple one, but we get a lot of easy. This is the problem.

Speaker 2: 30:16

I remember going out with one of my very good friends and we went to this restaurant that has like a paper all over the table and so they give you like crayons to like color and stuff until the food arrives. And so this other person is also an overthinker, okay, and so we started to catch up on life and and talk about things that happen. And as we're talking, we're just writing, we're explaining and drawings and this and that, and so the food arrives, we eat and everything, and then we look at the paper and it's a disaster. It's, it's, it's horrible. You're unable to like, find this pop, to even put a dot and this. And we looked at each other and we're like this is what happened inside our head. This is how bad of overthinkers we are. We're overthinking every single detail.

Speaker 1: 31:11

It's weird to it's. It's something that what I want to say is. It's very it feels so true when you're overthinking, but you still need to trust in the Lord to be Christian, and it feels like both are opposites and it feels like you're lacking as a follower and or someone that trust like, that wants to trust in God and that loves God, but it still has this issue To even trust him. And when you were saying about it, I'm like it's so true, because when you're in a relationship, you're overthinking every step and it's not gonna end up to anything other than drama and problems and a heartache when you were there. Friends, you're overthinking a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1: 31:58

Did he do this on purpose? Is he talking to them, him and saying this, is he trustworthy and he has my full support? Did he say something? This happened, like this is happening to me. Is it because of him or him or her? And, like you said, it's a tornado in my head and I'm just stuck in the middle trying to grab onto things to understand the tornado tornado. Well, sometimes we need just to leave the tornado for it to be calm and everything throws back on the floor.

Speaker 2: 32:30

And I love how you brought back the tornado part, because there's a very beautiful verse that says be still and know that I am God. Right it's, you know it's. A Christ did the same thing when there was a storm in the boat and then he talked and commanded the waves to like be still is the same thing. Tell the tornado inside of you be still and know that I am God. This is the key to Living a happy life. If there was a key.

Speaker 1: 33:01

Really. Yeah, it is. It is a good strength. There's a couple of fears, and I want to be inclusive to all types because we've talked about few things, but we want to also try to Describe as much as we can over thinking, because you know, we are a lot and we want to help everyone and we're just gonna I'm gonna just gonna go through them and we're gonna go go with it. So, fear of the unknown, I think this is we've talked about it a lot. Not knowing what what is happening is is killing. Absolutely. I hate surprises.

Speaker 2: 33:37

I.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Really pretty pretty parties or pretty surprises, what? No, but you know when?

Speaker 2: 33:42

someone comes to you and tells you I have a surprise for you. I hate that person already. Don't come and tell me I have a surprise. Tell me, I did this, or I did that, or this is going to happen. I have a surprise for you. No, no, it doesn't work with me. I cannot.

Speaker 1: 34:01

I just I'll joke about it, cuz you know we need to have fun, even though in life, imagine if the girl is overthinking everything and she's getting proposed to. That's not ideal for her.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Just make the surprise, but don't tell her there is a surprise. Yeah, just propose or do something, but don't tell her. If you tell her, she's probably not gonna say yes.

Speaker 1: 34:27

But so telling so just a good distinction. That you said, telling you that there's something waiting for you, is Where's then just surprising you? There's the fact that there's something that you do not know, right, or is it also the surprise in itself? I?

Speaker 2: 34:45

Think it's just the element of not knowing what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 34:48

It's really the element of the unknown and not the element of surprise.

Speaker 2: 34:52

Yes, the unknown, because, like I said, I'm a person who needs to be ready, who needs to to Know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 35:01

There's a good verse that I wrote down from Timothy 2 Timothy, chapter 1, verse 7, for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. And I love how you know God doesn't like write any, anything and this verse, I love it because it tells you a spirit of power, of Love and of a sound mind that he knows, he understand that it's gonna be troublesome in your mind. You're gonna go through all of a lot of Hurt and a lot of thoughts. On top of that, you're not gonna be able to love as much because you're gonna be second guessing everyone next to you and also you're gonna be powerless because of it, because you're gonna be stuck thinking and that's all Because of fear and we're gonna talk about through a lot of fears that we're gonna go through. But it just Summarizes overthinking in the nice one, don't you think? Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Second one, anxiety, I think, like you said, is there together and the verse that I wrote from that is Philippians 4 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your request to God. Yes, by prayer and petition. I want to stop on that Because if I don't trust in God's plan, how? But in every situation? By prayer and petition. First of all prayer, that's gonna be hard, but petition, what is petition?

Speaker 2: 36:49

That it's a very beautiful verse and, again, it's very hard to Apply those verses when you're an overthinker. In my opinion, I think they're even harder than the verse that says love your enemy. But again it's, it's step by step. You need to live day by day, learn to trust him, baby steps.

Speaker 1: 37:13

Well, imagine every day you need to you to in every situation, like he's telling you don't be anxious about anything which is reassuring, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your request. I'm like I'm already drowning in Problems. I don't have Thanksgiving. I am trying to just understand. I don't even have understanding.

Speaker 2: 37:41

No, absolutely I'm not gonna have Thanksgiving. And it's like a prayer, is like a seed. You can't expect To to be a huge tree or a plant when you're still a small seed. You need to water it down. Take your time, takes time. It's not a process that's overnight. You're gonna wake up and, ma'am, you're not an overthinker anymore. No, no, no. It's gonna take so much time, it's gonna take so much effort and it's gonna take so many reminders that God has a plan for you, that you need to trust God For you to reach that point, that you're a tree, that nothing, nothing is gonna move you and when you're gonna become a tree?

Speaker 1: 38:24

Are you still gonna be fearful or Be able to be over an overthinker, or is it something of the past? Do you think that over, like over thinking is a stage where, when?

Speaker 2: 38:36

completed.

Speaker 1: 38:37

Yeah, you don't go back to it.

Speaker 2: 38:39

No, you're gonna still be a fearful, I think. Let's take, for example, david the prophet and.

Speaker 2: 38:45

David is is one of the characters in the Bible that you know blows my mind. He said to have the heart of God, but yet in one of his, his Psalms, he says what? How long old Lord, will you forget me? Like, for real, you're overthinking this. I feel like David was a big overthinker. You're overthinking it that God left you and God did not even leave you. You know this is like a scenario that he left you, but then I Love how he's like a tree that even if there is a little bit of wind that moved him, he goes back.

Speaker 2: 39:20

But I trust in God. I trust in the Lord, like if you continue the Psalms, the Psalms ends with him declaring that he trust in God. So even even over thinking is not just a Disease that you're going to heal from it. It's not a disease actually, it's just a process that you put yourself in and you're going to put yourself in it for the rest of your life. But you need to know that there is a plan he got, that God has a plan for you. You need to know that.

Speaker 1: 39:50

You need to trust him and maybe, maybe, just to declare, like to add to what you're saying is it's not because you don't see Any fruits now from the archery that it's not gonna come. It's just not the season of.

Speaker 2: 40:06

Of the fruit? Yeah, absolutely and it's.

Speaker 1: 40:07

It's something because, as much as at the end of the year You're gonna see the fruit and it's a wow moment, it's still 300, like it's still a full year of no food.

Speaker 1: 40:21

Prayers, thanksgiving, you're, thanking God, you're praying, you are, you are asking him in every situation to be there until one day You're able to trust in him and still click with this process. It's still a full year or it's absolutely every single day, every single second, and something I am I read is the, the number, the number. I can't remember the number Specifically, but the amount of thoughts that a human brain Gets in a second, it's pretty Humongous and from overthinker, he is receiving most of them. Because the question is not Do I get thoughts? Everyone get thoughts like oh my god, this, this light is nice, or the this, this, this Text is not open, or this is not, like there's so many possibilities. But for an overthinker to go through all of them and to add to it possibilities, this is what which gets to the crumbling part, and this is what we're trying to like Tell them to take a breath, exactly, not stress.

Speaker 2: 41:28

It's okay. No, it's okay to overthink, but if you find yourself taking all your energy, taking your entire day, staying up all night, then that's not okay. Then you need to stop yourself. Then you need to tell yourself be still, and I want to. I am you reminded me of a very Nice sermon that Mba Ma'ar was once giving at the monastery. He was saying that the the part and the verse that says by think Thanksgiving. He was saying anything that the once was a woman that came to him and told him I want to, I I'm not getting married. Like I want to get married, no one wants to to approach me or talk to me or this or that. And so I told her when you pray, say the following say thank you, lord, for sending me the right person in the right time. So it's declaring to God that you know I trust you, I am thanking you and I know that you're going to send the right person in the right time. So it's as if he took this verse and he rephrased it for her in a prayer.

Speaker 1: 42:31

Being being born in in the orthodox faith and in the Coptic orthodox faith. I Feel like we are a Population of overthinker. As we, we overthink our future, we overthink every step, we overthink what people think and, because it's funny and people will be like people outside, don't overthink that, like they are they are giving me the space. I don't feel that that pressure of Overthinking every step that I'm taking out of fear of the others, so of social judgment, and that this is something that we as a Community is going through social judgment Crumbles us to do anything that is what we want or what we do, what we feel like it's right for us, but it's right for the community or it looks good. How, how did you overcome this?

Speaker 2: 43:33

I just ignore. That's it. It's as easy as that. When is? When there's something that needs you to to pay attention to it, pay attention to it, but when there's something as silly as am I gonna become an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer just ignore. You have you prepare yourself for whatever you want to be and ignore the rest. Ignore whoever thinks you're a failure, because you know there. Focus on yourself. This is what you need to do.

Speaker 1: 44:06

Focus on yourself but I like it just take more. Should we also ignore people like our parents or friends? Or if let's say, let's say that someone of Good authority in general tells you to to worry about something or to to make sure that this or that doesn't affect you, and you feel like this is, this is killing me from inside and it's overthinking, because it takes a lot of energy from me and it kills my, my, my, my process, my whole life process, and I'm stuck unto this point.

Speaker 2: 44:41

Can you give me an example, because I feel like you're you're going to like have very specific scenario.

Speaker 1: 44:47

No, as it's as much as I'll go with Carrier, because it's the the thing that we go through the most here in the West Western world. We are lucky to have a lot of possibilities, but I feel like we are only giving our Kids for options. You know the known for options being a doctor, being a lawyer, being an engineer or Pharmacist pharmacist, or at the end in, like they say, or just a garbage man.

Speaker 2: 45:23

If it's all those four, then you're going to become a garbage man, absolutely and Do you feel that that freedom of choice, or have you picked it?

Speaker 1: 45:32

Have you picked your career because of the limitation that your, our community, has given us?

Speaker 2: 45:44

I feel like I picked engineering In the beginning. My plan was not to become an engineer, my plan was to become a pilot, and so I was a bit outside of the Four choices that you were mentioning. But I was still socially accepted because it was a very prestigious sort of career. So I had the support of my family and my surroundings and I'm thankful for that. So I don't feel like I was struggling with this particular issue of my career. But I know quite a lot of people who you know they don't want to become an engineer and they got into engineering. And here they are. They got into there because their parents are pressuring them and so they're. They're anxious, they don't want to continue Right. And I tell them Once you graduate, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna spend four years of your life working in a company and and doing this job for the rest of your life?

Speaker 1: 46:44

just to put in the perspective it's 40 years, 40 hours a week and I know I am.

Speaker 2: 46:49

By doing this, I am sort of contributing to their overthinking, but, like we said earlier, there are some overthinking that's beneficial right I am paying your attention to. You need to overthink this particular point, not for long, but for that specific moment. You need to overthink it because you have four years ahead of you and if you don't think about it right now, how are you gonna live for the rest of your life?

Speaker 1: 47:14

And and the overthinking does not is not overthinking, is just thinking, because now you're planning your life and you are rightfully Placed to sit down, to plan, to think, to see, okay, what are my options, what are my passions exactly what? What is Interesting for me to continue for the rest of my life as much as marrying someone? You're sitting down, you're thinking what are the red flags? What are the green flags?

Speaker 1: 47:44

What are the possibilities there? And and go and. Do you think that if I am an overthinker, is Every thought and over overthought, like I could say that is every thought that comes to me is always overthinking, or can it be just thinking?

Speaker 2: 48:07

No, not everything like like I said in your experience? Yeah, my experience, if it takes you a lot of energy, if it keeps you up all night, this is an overthinking.

Speaker 1: 48:17

How do you do the distinction Between? It's just a thought, which is natural. I am thinking the right amount, the right energy for that specific thought or for that type of thoughts, or no? Now, I'm just Overthinking it. I'm overdoing it, can it?

Speaker 2: 48:34

wait until tomorrow. This is what I asked myself. Can it wait till tomorrow? If it can't, then I'm overthinking.

Speaker 1: 48:41

If it can wait, but there's things are urgent.

Speaker 2: 48:44

There. Nothing is as urgent as staying until 5 6 am In the morning, thinking about it and stressing about it.

Speaker 1: 48:53

So if it's urgent, you're gonna act on it. If you're just thinking about it, that's an overthought.

Speaker 2: 48:57

Yes exactly.

Speaker 1: 48:58

That's simple. That's a good. It's a good. At least there's perspective to know. Okay, am I overthinking or am I just thinking I'm able to continue to my tasks to my day? I have also. Well, you said this are of control, of for control, and Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make straight your paths. And this resumes. You know the whole.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Everything we're saying exactly all your heart with all your heart and it's, it's, it's the shroud, like the little Krak in the windshield of trust. That is the start of overthinking. I think this is beautiful to read it and we read it also, but there's also and this is some something that people told me about is perfectionism, and absolutely.

Speaker 2: 49:53

Overthinking and perfectionism are like hand-in-hand. And it's not just overthinking anxious is and perfection. I'm an perfectionist On a whole new level. If something is not perfect, I'm not gonna do it.

Speaker 1: 50:07

You're like I, rather do it perfectly or not do it, and you've heard me say this so many times, right?

Speaker 2: 50:13

And so there are so many projects in my life that I wanted to start and I'm overthinking. Oh, how am I gonna dress, how am I gonna talk, how am I gonna say if I should write a script, if I should do this or that, that I'm like trying to be a perfectionist so much that I've never done those projects.

Speaker 1: 50:32

I would. I would say even I would share a truth where even this project Took me more months that it should because of the fear of Perfectionism.

Speaker 1: 50:44

The fact that people might not like it, people might just not like me because of it and people might not even, you know, feel like they want to be Christian or like they're gonna hate Christ because of me, because of that park, and you're like but there's things that, yes, you need to do the right thing and think about it and plan it and be sure, like, okay, I am prepared to do the right thing and I'm gonna go, naturally because you know we don't have a strict script. But you know, even marketing and at work, it's the same issue. Do you feel like, at work, being being perfection, does it help? Does, does it ever helped you? Do you ever have a project that being being perfectionist actually saves lives, or Doing the right thing is always okay? I.

Speaker 2: 51:32

Think putting effort is enough. Being perfectionist doesn't help. You can never be perfect. No one is perfect, like they say. You can try to make this perfect. You can try to make this podcast very amazing, right? And and buy very expensive my Microphones and write the script and this and that and that, and still the result does not please the people, right? Or you can just dig and talk about whatever comes through your mind and Still get get people attention and get people want to listen to it, right? Perfectionism does not always help. And it brings to my Memory a conversation that I was having with someone recently where they're also Overthinkers and they're also also perfectionist, right, and there is a certain subject that they are so afraid of digging in it. They were telling me it makes me stress so much. And I'm telling them, like, just dig in it, give it a try. You never know you, you could succeed. You could also fail, it's possible. But give it a try, stop overthinking and and jump in.

Speaker 1: 52:42

This is what you need to do one thing that made me realize is that actually was greater than the fear of perfectionism is the fear of regret, regretting that I didn't do it, even though it wasn't it wasn't perfect, even though I didn't know what is the outcome, even though I did not have control of everything that would happen to it. The fear of regretting not doing at all was Was moving me to do more and to just do Cuz. It's funny, cuz I. When I read the Nike's slogan just do it, they don't say just overdo it, no, just do it. Let's see, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 53:30

The fear that you're talking about this is overthinking, right? You're reliving the past, when you could have just saved yourself by just jumping in. Now there's this youtuber that I really love. His nas daily. I don't know if you've heard of him, yes, and I love how his first episode he was talking about how he started, right, and he started by doing the one minute videos. This is, that's one minutes. You tomorrow, right? And he was saying that. You know, I just jumped in. I didn't know how it's going or or what the outcome would be, and as I'm going, I'm learning new stuff and I'm making it perfect. I'm making it better, right? So this is what you need to do. You just need to jump in.

Speaker 1: 54:13

There's also the, the fear of guilt or shame, because the, so the fear of guilt of and shame, combos us from from something that we did in the past, and the look that we have to our own selves Forget the social part of it, even to our own selves. In front of God, in front of Him, it's not even interesting. Him, it's like I don't even look good. How did you ever feel that and how did you work from it?

Speaker 2: 54:48

Absolutely. Trauma is the cause of fear in the past. Right, you need to tell yourself that whatever happened in the past does not define you. What defines you is what you do today and what you plan on doing in the future.

Speaker 1: 55:06

I'll try to answer that with well. If they knew what happened, they will change their mind about me. So if I say my dark secret, your perspective of me will change, even though today I am completely good or I'm completely another person, or I've worked hard to become such and such, or I've been working on it for so long, or I'm just on another new day. But knowing the knowledge of the past or that dark secret puts the other person to change their perspective. How would you answer that? When people tell you people if they knew, they would change their mind about me.

Speaker 2: 55:49

I would tell them if a person changes their mind about you because of your past, you don't need that person in your life.

Speaker 1: 55:57

It's very hard to cut off people's soul.

Speaker 2: 56:01

Absolutely, absolutely. It's very hard to let go, even if it's a person that you've met for a very short period of time. But once you've got used to that person, it's hard to let go. But tell yourself something it's better to let go now than to stick to that person and get hurt even more and more and more. Or to stick to that person and hide behind a mask. That's not you, because you're too worried and too anxious that that person will know the past.

Speaker 1: 56:33

But the hope, the hope of it be different with the person. Let's say that maybe in that moment he would not understand or she would not understand. But let's say, if I've given her more time with me, she might give me a chance, or he might give me the time of day or the ear that I need for me to say the dark secret. Is that always true or this is a myth? What do you think? Have you ever been in that situation where you feel like you've said something too fast? Now you're just like, okay, I'm going to take my time and say it later. Or do you get stuck in the middle overthinking when should I say it, or do I even say it?

Speaker 2: 57:18

Never. Here's where I think I think that you should not tell the person anything about the past. That's my opinion, and I think that's also the opinion of a lot of fathers. If you speak with your father of compassion, they will tell you your past or your sins or whatever happened in the past is for you to tell the God to learn from it and to move on, not for you to share it with your partner. That's my opinion.

Speaker 1: 57:47

Again, and I'm going to try to test it if you don't mind. So any of the past. You wouldn't say anything from the past, nothing. Past relationship, past encounters, past troubles, past friends. What's the point? What's the point.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Maybe it's a recipe for disaster, and it's a recipe for overthinking, because now, once you have told that person, you're going to stay up all night thinking did that person take it the right way? What are they thinking of me right now? Are they thinking I'm a good person? Are they going to leave me? And then you start creating scenarios of them leaving you and putting them through so many tests to make sure that they're actually not leaving you to the point that that person is going to reach a level where you know what. I don't want to know you anymore, like I didn't care about whatever you told me in the past, but right now you're making my life miserable that I don't want to continue in this present.

Speaker 2: 58:47

Right. So why? Why don't you tell yourself that you know what? I'm not going to tell anything about the past. I'm going to let that person meet me, who I am today and who I plan to be in the future. And whatever happened in the past is the past and, like I said earlier, the past is for you to learn from it and move on. The future is for you to hope for it and not to be anxious about it.

Speaker 1: 59:12

It's good advice and I wish I had someone, or like someone, to tell me that before, because the time I wasted thinking or let's say it, overthink it pushed so many people away.

Speaker 1: 59:34

And not only that pushed me away from people Absolutely, because I had a barrier and I'm like you know what? I don't want to talk, or I don't want to even get closer to you, because if I'm going to get close, this is going to happen and this is going to happen. And when I overthink this and this and this, why do all this? Just stay away, I'll be better.

Speaker 2: 59:53

Exactly. I've done so many of these and I've lost so many people around me until I realized that what I'm doing is wrong.

Speaker 1: 1:00:01

Were you able to reconcile people from that? Were you able to be like, okay, this is the time where I was overthinking. Sorry, Is it doable? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:00:10

absolutely. I was recently having a conversation with, actually, one of my good friends and they were telling me, like what you did was wrong, what you did to me was wrong, and I apologized and we reconciled and explained. I explained how I was an overthinker and how I've been through this and that and that and that and the whole process, and certain people will accept it and others will not. Certain people will tell you okay, I understand where you're coming from, and others will be like I don't even want to listen to you and that's okay. That's okay, that's the right.

Speaker 1: 1:00:45

And this is not a true question but some people that will reject me, even though I try to reconcile. I'm going to feel bad, I'm going to feel shameful, I'm going to regret trying. What do you say to that? What do you say to the people that were like why put myself in a position where people would tell me something that would not insult me but hurt me? Because it's hurtful to tell someone, no, I don't want to be friends with you. It's very hard. I've actually had multiple people tell me no, no, this friendship I don't want to know. It's pretty much. I don't want to be friends with you, even though, like, I'm sorry for what happened. You know this happened, you know I have this or I'm going through this or this is my situation, but I still want to be friends and be like no, I don't want to Not as like I don't mean to everyone to be like so heartless, but the way I took it is it feels like it's so heartless to say no to a friendship.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

You can't force someone to be with you, you can't force someone to love you. You got to accept it. Okay, I have done what I needed to do, what my God has commanded me to do, which is to approach you and to apologize for everything that I have done in the past, and I will approach you and apologize for hurting you. If you want to accept it, good, I'm ready to start over. If you don't want to accept it, then I have done my part. It doesn't define me anymore. It defines you. You are a person who doesn't want to accept, right.

Speaker 1: 1:02:21

It's, and when you come to that realization, it changes your whole like perspective and perspective, because you're like, I've done what I like I need to do and I'm good. I am where I am and I'm moving forward and I'm moving forward. So, whether we're that too, it's okay, but it's you now Absolutely Good. You've given, you played the ball and it's in their court.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

You played whatever they want to kick it, they kick it, they kick it, they don't.

Speaker 1: 1:02:50

You're lost in their court.

Speaker 2: 1:02:52

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:02:54

I think we, I think we did everything. The only thing that I just want to mention that because it's over thinking. It's such an inside thing that we there's also emphasizing on things that are outside of you, like material success or materialistic. Being materialistic sometimes makes you over thinking a lot of things because you want to keep that, that progress, and it makes you paranoid of any movement of that dollar signs in any way or progress that stresses you out all day long or all year long to be like, oh, I was at that point, but now, like I'm lower, like it's, for example, covid, covid, a lot of people lost a lot of things and and it creates a lot of stress and and and put over thinkers to maximum input.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

Because, you're like okay, I don't have a job.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

I don't have a job.

Speaker 1: 1:03:51

Yes, and you're in your, you're at home, you're in your head. You're not doing much because you're stuck at home with no one. You're most probably gaming, like I did, but at least you're not working. You're not. You're not focusing on other stuff than you focus on yourself, and all is happening around you is closed down and like people are dying and people are sick and and there's no work and the economy is on the floor. People came out on an anxious and there's a lot of people that are overthinking just because of that. What can we say to help them, or to even reconcile the, the, the, this hard truth, that hard time, and tell them it's okay, it's gonna be better?

Speaker 2: 1:04:38

I mean, I mean, I feel like, like you're saying, covid was a reason for a lot of people to get to, like, get in their head and realize how anxious they are or how they're suffering from an anxiety. But it was also a time where everyone was telling each other we're in this together, right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:04

So it's very important to remember that you're not alone, right, and this is the reason why I'm here as well. Right, it's to tell people you're not alone. You're not the only person who was overthinking his life. I'm also overthinking, right. So just remembering that you're not alone, remembering to trust God, is what I think I is enough to tell others.

Speaker 1: 1:05:31

I think over time every day, to do that is going to help. I think prayer, and a lot of prayers, is required for you to go through overthinking and survive it, Absolutely. You know there's. I think we should legit create a blog or something and write all the quotes. And you know you have this. Have you seen that picture or that? There's your problems.

Speaker 2: 1:06:02

And then the verse that goes with it. Absolutely, you say this, and then God says that, and I'm anxious, but I do not fear, for I am the Lord I love this picture.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

There's a few times that I saw it and it's like it came to the right. There's actually some like a person that always, especially is me and the most randomness, like random moments in my life, like they send me a quote or like a video or a reel and and just the answer of that time is like how did you know?

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

Were you in my thoughts and were you in my thoughts and I didn't know. Do you have any book recommendations, have you like? Do you have books that you've read that helped you with overthinking, or that could be a place to start?

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

There is a very beautiful series of books right now that I have been reading and it's allowing me to see someone who has been going through trauma and in the process they took to really trusting God, and it's the book Elijah or, I think, elements. It's called Elements, the transformation of Elijah, or something like this. I feel like this book is essential for everyone to read it. It's going to change a lot of people's life. It personally changed my life.

Speaker 1: 1:07:23

I actually started and in the first maybe 100 pages I've never read so fast a book. I've not done with it, I'm going to say the truth. But the first I remember when I was reading the first 100, it took me like not even a sitting.

Speaker 2: 1:07:37

I was sitting down and then just flew away and I was like, wow, yeah, I am reading because I don't read and you can connect so much to that person because he's another Coptic Orthodox guy who is born in Canada and who's raised the same way that we were raised, with the same mentality of parents and everything. So you can connect so much to him and so you can see everything that he's gone through whether it's trauma, whether it's events, sad events or happy events and how he coped with it and how God was with him. So it really changes your life.

Speaker 1: 1:08:14

It does, it does. Thank you again, rajeev, for coming and taking your time to speak to us, to something so deep and something that sometimes we don't realize that it's a problem, and to help everyone, including me, to have perspective on something so hard. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you, guys for tuning in today. Please continue subscribing, sharing and liking our videos. It helps us with all the algorithm, as you know. Follow us. We're going to put all our links down below. Have a good day and God bless.