Ep 22 - Sustainable Refrigeration in Brewing - Jan Paul & Max Buchner

Refrigeration is a part we all rely on, but how well do you know your refrigeration plant?

Do you know what refrigerant it uses? Some refrigerators contain chemicals that have a global warming potential 2500 times higher than the same weight of CO2.

And are you aware of upcoming legislation changes that will impact the craft brewing industry?

In this episode we will cover:

- Why this topic is important
- Types of refrigerant used in breweries
- Upcoming legislative changes
-  Low GWP refrigerants and refrigeration
- Demand for thermal energy in breweries

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:38 Introducing Jan Paul and Sustainable Refrigeration
01:24 Sponsor Message: Dalum Beverage Equipment
02:40 Welcoming Guests and Reintroductions
05:46 Discussion on Brewery Cooling and Environmental Impact
08:53 Global Warming Potential and Refrigerant History
12:59 Natural Refrigerants and Brewery Case Studies
17:18 Future Regulations and Practical Advice
28:29 Synthetic vs. Natural Refrigerants
31:54 Understanding PFAS and Its Environmental Impact
34:14 Ammonia in Breweries: Challenges and Solutions
35:29 Switching to Glycol Cooling Systems
37:03 Energy Efficiency and Maintenance Tips
50:18 Exploring Alternative Coolants
55:22 Practical Advice for Brewers
01:00:28 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

🔗 Chris' LinkedIn

🫧 Recover your breweries CO2 - https://dalumequipment.com/

📧 Jan Paul - jan@jp-brewing-consulting.com

🆒 Max Buchner - Maximilian.Buchner@trane-roggenkamp.de 

Transcript

0:14

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 22 of the Modern Brewer podcast with me, your host Chris Lewington. We're going to have our first returning guest on the show. For those avid listeners who can remember episode 17, you'll remember Jan Paul. A brewing consultant who was in previous employment had installed the first ever Dallum CO2 recovery unit. Well, straight after we recorded that episode, Jan proposed another topic that he thought the listeners would enjoy, sustainable refrigeration. Refrigeration is a part we all rely on, but how well do you know your refrigeration plants? Do you know what type of refrigerant it uses? Some refrigerants contain chemicals that have a global warming potential. Two and a half thousand times higher than the same weight of CO2. And are you aware of the upcoming legislation changes in the eu? that will impact the craft brewing industry. With Jan Paul is Max Buchner from Trainer Rogenkamp, a German refrigerator, a German refrigeration plant manufacturer. Before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by Dallin Beverage Equipment, pioneers in manufacturing CO2 recovery units for the craft breweries of all sizes. Whether you're a small craft brewery or a larger operation, Dallin Beverage Equipment has you covered. Their innovative CO2 recovery units are designed to help breweries become self sufficient with CO2 by recovering, purifying, liquefying, and storing CO2 from their fermentation processes. This not only reduces costs, but also assists breweries in achieving self sufficiency with their own CO2 supply and minimizing environmental impact. So if you're a brewery looking to enhance sustainability and operational efficiency, consider Dallon Beverage Equipment for your CO2 recovery needs. Visit their website today to learn more. And of course, their website will be in the show notes. So, we're ready to get into the episode. As always, I really hope you enjoy the content. Get ready, folks. This gets nice and technical. I was learning so much as Max and Yan were speaking. They're incredibly gifted individuals and they make a great duo. So, welcome to the show, Max and Yan. Thank you very much. Awesome. So Jan, do you want to just introduce yourself to the listeners once again? Because for those who remember, Jan was also involved in the, in episode 18 on, um, carbon recapture. So Jan, would you just like to reintroduce yourself to the listeners who haven't listened to that episode yet? Well, I gladly will. My name is Jan Paul. I have a degree in brewing engineering from the University in Munich, Weinstephan. And I'm the former long term brewmaster at Sveinig Brøkhus in Denmark and, uh, been doing a lot of lecturing through the years at the University of Copenhagen, Scandinavian School of Brewing, and, uh, Sterling College in Vermont, and, uh, consultancy around the world. And last year I went solo with my own consultancy business, J. P. Brewing Consulting. And, um, uh, yeah, super willing to travel, highly flexible. And, uh, my main fields are, um, microbiology and microscopies. This is the staff training stuff, yeast management, fermentation, non alcoholic, lager yeast, uh, wild yeast, CO2 recovery, as and the audience might remember and, uh, cooling with natural refrigerants, but also greenfield, uh, projects, brewery projects. Awesome, man. Yeah, it's a really good list. Also, I mean, great, great university to get your degree from as well. So big respect for that. Max, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners? Yes, of course. Hi, I'm Max Buchner. I'm from Germany Um, I for myself, cooling and refrigerant technician. Uh, I have a kind of a bachelor, we called it in Germany, uh, handcraft master, for example. And I work for Train Rockenkampf from Munich. the company itself is a service and sales partner for train products. those train products are mostly huge or large chillers in different ways. Um, And the department I work for is the so called energy service. We are around six people and we are working, uh, especially for energy intensive companies and our key accounts or our main main partners are breweries. And, um, so over the last 10 years. Especially my, my colleague and department leader, Tobias, um, work with way over a hundred breweries and our, our target is to do energy optimizing and stuff like that in the different ways of breweries. Awesome, man. Yeah, that's great. Uh, so Jan, you actually reached out after the last episode and said you, you had this idea. Uh, you really wanted to share with, with the listeners and you, and I was like, this is the perfect platform to do that with. So, um, perhaps you could just sort of discuss, uh, what, what it was about this that was so exciting to you and, and what this subject kind of is. Um, for me, who sees many breweries, I often encounter the same attitude towards brewery cooling that it's like overseen basically and just something that has to work and no one really thinks about what they operate and maybe just a cheap is the key and no one spent the thought on the environmental and climate wise impact. Thank you very much. And this has been somewhat startling me and, uh, also considering the energy consumption of, uh, of, of chillers, which can be up to 45 percent of the total energy bill, electrical energy bill. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's just, I found that interesting to, to share with, with others that might not have spent a thought on that. So there's the coefficients of performance. That, that, uh, can save you a lot of money if a bit about the basic technology behind and the refrigerants available. And, um, yeah, also the climate wise impact. There's a term called global warming potential. And all refrigerants applied have a certain global warming potential, almost all of them. And, um, this is something you need to know, in fact. And we'll get into that, uh, on a discussion later. Uh, but basically the history of refrigerants dates back to, um, uh, when, when the, when the cooling plant was, was basically invented. The technology was invented by Cal Van Linde in the 1800 seventies. And, uh, these refrigerants were based on, uh, cloris and, and, and, and floris, um, carbons. And these have a huge. Ozone deployment, deploying potential, uh, and were thus to be outpaced by the Montreal, uh, protocol, uh, in from 1986, I believe it was, and, uh, the successor was then the hydrofluorocarbons, which, uh, on the other hand, have a high, high global warming potential. So, um, and these are now to be out phased by their successes again, that have other problems. So, the best way to, to deal with this is to look into natural refrigerants. And we will have a discussion about that. And, um, I myself did install a propane based, uh, chiller in a Greenfield Brewery project in Svaneke in Denmark. back in 2007 when this was quite unheard of in the brewing industry. And, um, so this has actually been inspirational for other breweries. We've, we've had made other breweries install a similar system. So this is why I have a somehow in depth knowledge of this and I want to spread this. Yeah, great. And, and perhaps you could just, just Tell the listeners a bit more about global warming potential and just how different, let's say, hydrofluorocarbons are in comparison, in comparison, the global warming potential to, uh, let's say, carbon dioxide, for example. Yes, well, the global warming potential is defined by, uh, the equivalent of CO2 that would contribute to the greenhouse effect. So CO2 naturally has a CO2 equivalent of one. And, uh, Propane, for example, has a global warming potential of three, whereas a classical R410a, which is the successor of R22, has a global warming potential of 1800, which is quite a lot, thinking of how many kilos you have of refrigerant in a, in a, in a chiller. This released into the atmosphere, that's a lot of, that is a lot of, uh, uh, climate, uh, contribution. Yeah, I mean, it's quite. It's quite astounding when you make basically like one kilo of that is equivalent to 1800 kilos of CO2 and it's like, wow, when you start thinking about that side, it gets really, uh, I don't know, it gets quite intense and I'm basically why refrigerant gases are actually really, really important to sustainability yet because they're quite complex, I guess they're not talked about enough. Exactly. And think about all the ACs in the cars, all the, everything full of refrigerants, mainly, mainly the lousy ones. Yeah, and it is to be. I did a lot with sustainability this year was a Vera and stuff on carbon accountancy. And it's funny when you look at transport, it's so demonized and people are associate the, the bad emissions with with the stuff that's coming out the exhaust. But actually, sometimes the refrigerant can be just as just as bad across or everything. And it's just one of those things that AC is just not really talked about as like a sustainability issue. You always think the electricity side of it's the problem, but not the refrigerant gas itself. Yes, absolutely. Um, so you can, you can drive a lot for, for, um, for the same amount of, uh, of CO2. If you, if you release by accident, hopefully, uh, release some of the refrigerants into the environment. Um, so it's, it's, you're right. Yes. And, uh, Jan also, uh, speak of, out of our hearts, I would say, because, um, it's, it's one of the things we, we see most of the time in the, into the breweries or in the breweries that, um. They, the brewers have a lot of love or a lot of, passion for the, for, for the product and, um, But most of the time they don't see the energy they need to use for it. And often they use way too much because I don't judge them, but they don't, they just don't know it. And that's, that's, um, that's the thing behind it. And that's one of our, one of our ideas that we, we, uh, go into the breweries and talk about this, uh, about the thing. And then often they, they're super happy because no one, no one explained it to them, to them. And no one, um, already they don't get it because they never heard about it. And, um, often they're super happy and, and, uh, Want to invest into new things. So, because in, on the other end, there will be a lot of savings because, uh, you, you will not, um, use as much energy as before, so it's, it's, it's great. And it's also great for environment because we, we need less electricity or we need less steam or we need less, uh, gas and oil and, um, all of the things. I agree. And I was a good American saying, you don't know what you don't know. Yes. You don't know what you don't know. Yes, absolutely. Ignorance is bliss is a, is a slightly more cruel one.. Um, so what type of refrigerants, I, I, just to make this very clear, we're talking about refrigerants for glycol, uh, chillers or generally chiller units in, in breweries today. So what type of refrigerants are available to brewers and, and sort of why do they differ Maximum. Yes. So there are, or you can, can, can say there's one, one, sorry. There's one refrigerant for all of them. So because they have different sizes, they have different, um, places on Earth . So if it, if you, if you, if you brewery like in Denmark, you need maybe another refrigerant. Then if you have it like in South Africa, um. And also there is, uh, depends on how you can, um, set up your, your chiller. So maybe you can only set up in the, in the basement, or you can only set it up in the, on the, on the roof, or maybe you can only set it up, uh, next to your neighbor and your neighbor is like a young family with children and all of that. But, um, as, as Jan already said, um, the future are natural refrigerants. Absolutely. So we are, we are thinking the same. Most of the, of the chillers we, um, bring into the, into the breweries are also, um, filled with, uh, natural refrigerants. For example, are 20, 290, uh, like propane. And, um, This is one of those refrigerants we, we would, yes, we would like to say it's, it's perfect for breweries. Um, if you have like, um, another, or another sizes, then we can, can talk about maybe another, another refrigerant because of the, of the, um, Of the power you need or the, the, the cooling capacity you need, um, but at the end, you need to have a look into the brewery because you need to see how they brew because have, for example, if they have like a, um, two stage board cooler, if they have air cooled, um, storage cellars, or if they have like cooling jackets on their, on their, um, storage cellars. Um, if it is a air cooled chiller or is it a water cooled chiller, um, you need, you need to see it. You need to see the whole brewery and think about it because, um, there are so many ways you can not just cool with your chiller. There are also many ways you can do like heat recovery and stuff like that. And if you have like heat recovery, you also can think about another refrigerant. That's a, that's many of those things we, you need to know, but, um, Oh, don't, you don't need to know, but you don't need to think about it, um, but like. Absolutely, uh, natural refrigerants will be the future at, at anyways because also of the, uh, further regulations maybe we'll talk about later, and, um, in those natural re re in those natural ation true, sorry, in those. Natural refrigerants. They're also different ways. So we have, propane, bane ammonia also. Um, and it's a, it's a market. It grows a lot at the moment because of the regulations. There are more companies who offers chillers with, with, uh, those refrigerants. And there will be a, a big future for it. Hmm. So when, when I travel around and visit small craft breweries, which are my main customers, then I often find these Chinese produced R410A chillers. And, uh, when I, when I address them, they, they have no clue what they're actually, what they actually bought. So I'm, I'm wondering if there will be a rude awakening for these, for these crafties. Yes, maybe let's split this question in two parts. So one of them, like those, um, Chinese chillers and the other one with the refrigerant R 400 and TA, 10A. So the refrigerant R 400 and 10A is not affected by any radiation. Direct Ben at the moment, there will be a Ben in the future. So for, uh, AC or air conditioning, it will be in the end of, or not in the beginning of, uh, 20, 29 and for process cooling, it will be at the beginning of 2027. Um, so there's not, it's very soon. Yes. There's not direct Ben right now, but also we have like the FGAS regulation. Um, it's like a EU thing and the target of those regulation is to reduce the amount of especially refrigerants with a high GVP like R410A step by step. So, um, the, the, the aim for the whole regulation will be that the market. Will, um, actually regulate itself. So because the, the, the refrigerant are funded in 10 a will be a lot, a lot more expensive the next years. So. Especially a lot of users like ACs or breweries or, uh, companies who have like, uh, chiller processes, um, will switch into another, another refrigerant. And so that will be, will happen in the next years. And one of those, um, Who has to deal with it will be the users of chillers with R410A, yes, that's right. Max, can I just quickly ask you a couple of questions? One, how, generally how does a brewery, or Jan can answer this, how does a brewery check what refrigerant their chiller has? And also, will this ban on R410A? Uh, come into place on existing chillers using that refrigerant. Will they have to be taken away or is it just on new refrigerant, uh, new chillers being brought? So, um, first of all, they can check it like on the, the chiller itself. There should be like a, um, small, small label or batch where you can read the, the, Type late, we can read like, um, the, the power consumption, the, um, the, the, the cooling capacity, uh, the refrigerant, the manufacturing year and stuff like that. There should be a small, small batch. Um, Especially in Germany, there's also like a small booklet in the, in the chiller where the maintenance, maintenance company write into the things. And that should be, that should be the easiest way to find it out. Um, the second question, no, there will be, they don't need to, to remove those chillers. at those, um, dates. It's just for new chillers, they come into the market and they will also be, the users will also be allowed to service them. Okay. So there will be not right. Okay. New, you, there will not be a date where you can, uh, or where you need to remove it right now, but. You need to think about the future at this certain point, because it will be harder to get the refrigerant, it will be harder to get spare parts and stuff like that. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to future proof your brewery by considering this. I mean, it's like buying a diesel car these days. Yes. Maybe one thing, I want, um, please don't throw your chillers right away right now, because they're still good. If they're still working, use them. Don't get me wrong. It would be a bad idea to, to, to, uh, Remove them right now and, and buy anything new because if it is working, never touch a running system, if it is working, if it is working great, use it, no worries. Um, but you need to think about it and have it like, um, to remember it at a, at some point that there could be, uh, problems in the future. Okay. Can I come with a remark? Yes. Because I, in our case with the propane chiller, we've either we've been lucky or we chose the right, the right supplier. This thing has never. And a service technician on our Island, he says, what is this? I've never seen a chiller where we did not have to do a refill. So if you always have to do refills on your chiller and your service technician loves you because he earned so much money on you, then you might consider buying something of quality with a good net future proof, um, refrigerant. Yes, or maybe change your, change your maintenance guy. So normally, normally those, those systems are, um, proof already that there should be sealed. There shouldn't be a leak to the environment because, um, it's, it's, it's, it's a closed, closed system. you always need a higher pressure than you've got around or around the environment. Um, So there shouldn't be a leak. Maybe after 10, 15 years, it could be possible because of, of maintenance work, um, that you have lost a bit, but, uh, never, never like every year or stuff like that. Um, I know also a lot of breweries, uh, who fill up their, their chillers every year, unfortunately, but, um, no, that's, that shouldn't be, that shouldn't be the idea behind it. Should run for itself, yes, without refilling. So, I think there was a second part to Jan's question. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that was my fault, I distracted everyone as always. No, no worries, no worries. Yes. So don't get me wrong, those, those products are also good. And they have, they have, uh, a great, a great way of working. And, um, don't get me wrong, you should always be allowed to, to buy Chinese or Asian products. Um, but it's just like, it's just like a product and it's not very individual, you know, and the, the process of, or. Brewing process, um, is also very individual itself. From brewer, it's different between every, every brewery. And, um, the same way they use those, their chiller, different. And if you buy stuff like that, you can, it's just like a, Plug, plug in, plug a play. So what I think is, what I, what I hear you say is that these, these Plug and play chillers from China are just not, not tailor made for the, for the, for the individual brewery. Absolutely. Yes. You can do it more efficient, more, um, uh, yeah. Fit it to the process as needed. Absolutely. Yes. Right. So that's, that's why we. where you should talk to your local refrigerant or refrigeration guy because they can, they can bring, Uh, a lot of, of knowledge and a lot, a lot of, of ideas into it. And those, those products, if you buy them, like on, on, I don't know, in the, in the internet, they're just made for cooling. And it's, it's, it's, um, it's really sad because if you, if you, Know how to use it. You can do like a heat recovery. Use, use the power you are cool or use the energy you're cooling out of your, out of your product. Use it again into your, in your brewery, and that's a bit sad because you should Use it and and know how to how to work with it and often your local guys can can work with it And so my ideas your all brewers are proud of their local product and should should maybe work together with their Local companies and and do it do a great thing with Also with the beer and the refrigerant or the the chillers Yeah, it makes sense with particularly considering service. Um, yes, probably not get someone from far east to, to, uh, to help you if you're, yes, you can get, yes. Right. You can, you can call your guy, your local guy and, um, ask a question or if you have, if you need any help, they will be happy to help you. I've got a question for you. So there'll be some people listening to this. Maybe they go check their. Chillers and they'll start panicking that they've got this, um, uh, for 10 a. m. Is it possible for people to check, simply change the refrigerant in their chillers? So first of all, please don't panic. Don't, don't get, that's what I said. Don't, don't get me wrong. Please don't panic. There will be, will be, uh, uh, some years you can use it, uh, or several years, several years you can use your refrigerant again, but, um, Yes, in some ways you can change the refrigerant, not in all, because, um, those refrigerants have different levels of pressure. So, for example, R410A works at a very high pressure. Pressure level and, um, propane at a way more lower level of pressure. They do the same, they're cool, but they work on, on different, on different levels of pressure and, um, that's why there are different, uh, Um, components in a, in a circuit of, uh, refrigerant, like the compressor or, um, the oil from the compressor maybe is, is not working together. So it's, it's not that easy to change or to just change it. Um, once again, you need, or the best ways to, uh, to ask your local, your local, uh, uh, refrigeration guy. Okay, so thank you for that. That was, that's really useful. I, I understand that there are synthetic refrigerants, with a somewhat low global warming potential. When do natural refrigerants make sense? And when does synthetic refrigerants with a low global warming potential make sense? Once again, it's not that easy to say it to say, but, um, you need to know The propane is like the propane we know from, from, uh, the barbecue, the gas barbecue. Um, it's almost the same. It's just a 100 percent pure. Um, and there's not like those, uh, smelling into it. So it's like 100 percent pure. And if you, if you have large. if you need huge, huge, um, cooling capacity, um, it could be, or it's, it's obviously you need a lot of, uh, refrigerant. And if you have a special, special, like a special setup or only, only it's only, uh, possible to, to set up the chiller in the basement or next to your neighbor or whatever, then it could be, um, And it could be easier to use another refrigerant, which is not like flammable, uh, like propane. Um, uh, another idea is that you, Let's compare it with ammonia. If you have like, breweries would, uh, in the middle of the city, often they use, still use huge amounts of ammonia right now, but, um, more and more of them say, Hey, it's, it's, it's a little bit too, too, too dangerous if like, I don't know, 13 tons of ammonia and we are in the middle of the city and, um, It's the, the, the government and the city has a lot, a lot harsher regulations and, uh, we need to do something. And of course it's possible to, to, um, use propane instead of it, but maybe it's easier to use one of those low GBP refrigerants. Um, it's, it's depends. So first of all, our idea is to use propane. Natural refrigerants, but, um, maybe the circumstance says, okay, be, it's easier to use another one or it's, it's safer to use another, uh, refrigerant. I have a remark as for, um, these synthetic refrigerants. Um, so timeline wise, R22, which was a chlorofluorocarbon was replaced by R510A, which is a fluorocarbon. Which now can be replaced by an HFO, they have a global one with potential of like 400, 500 around there. And, but the production of these guys releases something called PFAS, which is a polyfloral alkali substances, which are to result in cancer and all kinds of hazardous situations for humans. Can you explain that? So the topic is very, very complex and I try to do my, or I try my best to explain it in English. It will be a hard one. PFAS or PFAS we call it, most of the time we call it PFAS. Um, Those PFAS problem affected many industries. Industries, not just the, the refrigerant industry or the, uh, the, the, the chiller industries. Um, because PFAS belongs to, to many products, and PFAS is PFAS itself, it's belongs to the so-called Forever Chemicals. Um. And if these substances are released into the environment, um, they do not decompose. They are, like, forever in the environment, into the soil, or into the water. And, um, Yes, there, there are right now into water and right, uh, into, into, to the soil. refrigerants are, uh, are, are releasing, releasing PFAS into the environment, but only if they got into the environment. So it's, it's, it's more important to, to check your, to, to check your chiller, um, if it is leaking or stuff like that, because it's only, it's only producing PFAS if it got into the environment. And, um, Not the, not the refrigerant itself, it's a PFAS substance, it's some, um, It got into PAS, uh, into, into PAS when it's got into the environment. So it's, it's, uh, kind of, let me see if it's decomposed in the environment or in the air. Then it's split into, into different, into, into different substances. And one of those is, could be PAS, not all, not at all or not all. Uh, refrigerants decompose into pfas and other ones. Um, but some of them, and unfortunately, especially. Uh, the HFOs at the moment. So like, there are 1, 1 2, 3 4 YF we spoke about ammonia, huge amounts of ammonia in breweries located in city centers. Uh, ammonia, as we know, is poisonous. Um, so, I've heard from many breweries that they try to reduce the amount of the refrigerant, the filling, uh, amount. And, um, I've heard particularly from a brewery in southern Germany that has reduced from, uh, I think 600 kilos to 60, if I remember correctly, and now 6, 000 kilos. Yes, sounds more like, yeah, yeah, 6, 000 and, um, I believe it's because they, they switched from direct evaporation at the tanks or, or, or, um, room cooling, um, to, to a glycol that is being pumped into a cooling jackets. I cannot imagine how, how else this should be carried out. And so it's a hydraulic system, right? Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. So my, my colleague, Chris and I, um, I also had a project like, like, uh, reducing or, uh, switch in a brewery from, uh, ammonia cooling into direct cooling with glycol and a new chiller. So there was like, I think seven, seven tons of ammonia or 7, 000 kilograms of ammonia. And, um, yes, we, we, we switched them. And. Yeah, it depends. There are many, um, pro points or good points. And there are also some, some negative points. Don't, uh, don't, don't, uh, let that out. Um, but once again, it depends what, what do you want for your brewery? So, especially if you have like, uh, set up or a situation in, in a city or next to, next to. I don't know, uh, industries with, with, uh, special production or stuff like that. Uh, it could be very hard for the breweries to, um, to get, get into the regulations of the, into the local, local regulator, local regulations. And, um, also the, the machines or the shill itself got more and more complex. And, um, so our idea is it to, to. Reduce the complex of the chiller into just one, one chiller and, um, build up or set up a hydraulic system. So you can have like a heat exchanger where you get your, your, your, your refrigerant into the, onto the glycol. And after that, it's just pumps and wells and stuff like that. And, um, another good point is most of those things who got maybe broken in the, in the future. The, a good maintenance guy or a good brewer can, can repair it themselves, because it's easier to, to switch a, a pump or a, a wave in a, in a glycol circuit than in the, than in a ammonia or refrigerant circuit. you always need specialists for, for the, for the ammonia and the, the other refrigerant things and, um. Yes, so far we are really happy with, with the systems and they're working great. Yes, maybe a example, they, the brewery, we, we, um, We changed from ammonia into glycol. They got a, uh, ice bunker with, with, uh, direct ammonia evaporation and just the ventilation of the ice bunker, uh, needed more power than all new pumps. Right now. So, because we, we used frequency drive pumps and, um, we just used, uh, the right power, the right size of pumps. And, um, There are a lot of savings. And right now the whole system has, um, a less power consumption up to 15, 20%. When we switch it from ammonia to, to our new chiller, a train chiller and, uh, uh, hydraulic system. Nice. So it's huge numbers, not, not, not just some, some savings, huge numbers. That's wild because normally direct eye vibration. It's considered more efficient, right? But that's, that's super good to hear, I think. Yes, absolutely. It's, it's, if you, if you add glycol to the, to the water, um, it, it will be even worse. The, the, um, the efficiency, but, uh, you need, you need to see it different because, um, We can also do a lot of better heat recovery with, with, uh, um, those kind of, um, chillers, you can storage your, your glycol, your cold glycol. So if you have maybe like a solar on your, on your roof and you can produce cool, cool glycol and storage it like into a huge buffer tank or stuff like that. Um, It's, it's way much easier to, to storage it than, than ammonia. And, um, yes, it's, it's depends on, on, on the brewery again, but, uh, we, we made a lot of good, uh, experience that way. So what you were explaining there is, so just to get my head around it, so, uh, what you were just explaining there sounds like a very typical craft brewery set where they're cooling glycol and they're having it into a reservoir, but are you talking about ammonia cooling that glycol? Could be also possible. Absolutely. As I said, uh, glycol, uh, ammonia is also a great, a great, um, refrigerant most of the times when we got into the breweries, the ammonia chiller is very old and, and, um, affected by repairs and stuff like that. That's, that's the reason why we try to change it completely and not just, um, reduce the amount. But, um, Right now we have a project, uh, where the target will be to reduce the, the, the amount of ammonia, it's, it's a good chiller, it's a, it's a great ammonia chiller, and it would be, it would be worse to, to, to switch it completely, but it would be great to, to reduce it, because you also can, if you reduce the amount of ammonia, you have, um, Uh, like, like, um, not so hard regulations on the, on the local government and stuff like that. Um, and you need less, less power, of course, and less, less maintenance and less, um, stuff like that, Yeah, and I don't think I've ever seen like a, an ammonia loop, chilling loop, or direct evaporation loop in my life actually, so it'd be pretty cool to see one. Um, even if they are going slowly out of date by the sounds of it. Yeah, especially in huge, in huge, uh, breweries there, set it up with ammonia. And there are also, there are also projects or breweries who still build greenfield breweries with ammonia. Don't get me wrong, ammonia is a, is a, is a great, a great way of cooling. Um, it's just A different way of thinking or a different way of working with cooling than we do. Um, cause because we say, okay, we can, we can not just. Our thinking is not just cooling. Our thinking is how we can use the energy in the whole brewery, like, like pre water or pre cooling for, for brewing water or again, heat recovery or, uh, storage, storage, your, your cool glycol for, for, uh, for, some hours on stuff like that. Yes, I find that very interesting with, um, taking the peaks and, and, and producing the thermal energy you need when you have the electrical power or cheap night power, uh, and, and, and storing it, flattening the peaks. Um, this is, this is, I use that a lot in, in, in Svanek and, and it's really, uh, we have some nice, uh, thermal energy. performance indicators due to this. Um, and also wanted to remark that the refrigerant ammonia really has a very high coefficient of performance. So the electrical energy you put in, you get a lot of thermal energy out of that. And propane actually has a very nice coefficient of performance too, which is tiny bit lower than ammonia. And, uh, so I find these two refrigerants Really brilliant. Just to come with my humble opinion. Yeah, no, that's good. It's important to have that. And yeah, so I guess they're the two natural types of refrigerants that you'd be, sort of, I'm not saying recommended, because I know everything's different, but they're the two you would recommend. CO2 is also a refrigerant. Yes, yes, that's absolutely right. So, uh, Max, when you When you visit breweries and you're looking at their cooling, uh, do you just look at their cooling demand or do you also make a survey of their overall demand for thermal energy? So it's funny because most of the time, like our opener or our invitation, um, is because of the, of the chiller or the cooling because, um, people often say, Hey, can you, can you come visit us? Um, because we have problem with our chiller. Um, we have, uh. not enough cooling capacity and, uh, it's old and maybe we need a new one and stuff like that. And, um, often they ask us like, can you just offer us a new, a new chiller or a new, new cooling plant? And then we say, okay, we will, no worries. But at first, can we come visit you and see the chiller and see a brewery because we won't just. Sell you anything because you wanted our idea to, to, to make it tailor made, a tailor fit, a tailor fit, uh, a tailor tailor fit chiller. And, um, yes, we have like, we call it, uh, uh, system analyzer or system analyzers. Um, and. Then we come to the breweries and visit them and they, they just show us their brewery and then, and then we talk about it. And, and the most of the time our question is, why? So why you do it like that? Why you, why you do it? Or why this, why is the set point of the chiller like that, why is the set point of your storage cell like that? And, um. Then, then we got it and then the brewers are open and say, I don't know, we always do it the same way, like forever. And then we, then we, we come into it and then we say, okay, let's, let's see the whole system. And then we find, Our idea is to, to check if there, if like, if you have a chiller with one, 100 kilowatts of cooling capacity, we measure it, if it comes coming out of the, of the, of the chiller, and then we see if it comes or does it reach the, the, the, the consumers, so like the storage sellers, like the board cooler, like the, um, CCTs and stuff like that. Um, Most of the time, we have like, we produce like 100 kilowatts of, of cooling capacity, but the consumers, uh, maybe reaches like 60 kilowatts or stuff like that. And then, then the, the search begins. Then we try to find out, try to find out where we got it, where, where we have our losers, So, because you, you use electricity, uh, power for like 100 kilowatts of cooling, but you only got 60 kilowatts on your system. And that's how we start. And often if you check those systems, we, we see a lot of another. Points we would like to talk about with the brewery. And, um, once again, don't get me wrong. We don't, we don't judge them. It's just our, our, um, or we, we specialized on those kinds of, of, of things, and then often they, they, they, they see, okay, shit, maybe I did something wrong or it's just a whale with a whale, which was the wrong setting. we visit breweries, they, they ask for a new chiller, we visit them and, uh, say he's good. Couldn't be right to, to sell you a new chiller because it's working very well. And then we, we, we have a look on the system and it was just one well. So that we could, uh, reduce the flow on the, on the, uh, heat exchanger, on the plate heat exchanger. So that the, the water was running way too fast over the heat exchanger. And they never could reach the temperature because it was way too fast over it. Then we reduce it and after that they were happy. So, we, we will, we haven't sold a chiller, but we have a happy customer, And that's our idea. And that's, that's our idea of, of doing it. And, um, yes, that's, that's, that's how we do it. And, um, as I said, it's not just the cooling, it's also like, uh, heat recovery and the, the ward cooling. Um, and, uh, sometimes also the, the, the steam production or the, uh, Uh, different, different ways of, of storage things. a lot of, a lot of breweries have like air cooled storage sellers. Um, maybe most of the time with, with, with CCTs, with a cooling jacket, but they, like they have a, uh, old, old storage seller. And some years ago, they, they changed the, they changed the, um, the CCTs, got new ones into it with, with cooling jacket, but they, um, still use the, the air cool, air cooled, um, air cooled fan, fan coils, And then we say, please change it, please change it because it's way more efficient to use the cooling jackets than the, the air cooling of the, of the storage cellular. Um, for example, or sometimes they, they use way too much glycol in their system because if you add glycol, the efficiency or the, the, the performance, the heat. Heat capacity, thanks Jan, um, that's, gets worse, really, really worse. And if they use way too much glycol, um, it's, you can, you can just not transfer any energy, um, and stuff like that. That's, that's often things we do in the, in the breweries and that's, um, that's how we do it. Yes. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's really good. Absolutely. Yeah. The coolants are actually quite important to think about. Um, as you mentioned, Max, there's the normal ethylene glycol, which is widely used. It's however poisonous. I know it's applicable and many do, but there's also other alternatives that are non poisonous and even biologically degradable and even biologically produced. Um, there's, uh, so just for the chemistry, uh, ethylene glycol is, uh, uh, is a ethane dial, and there's, um, a bio glycol, which is propane dial, uh, not to be, uh, mixed with, with, uh, proper in prop. Um. What's it called? Propane dial, which is the non poisonous alternative to classical glycol. So if you're putting a bit of interest into this, you can actually get something that is environmentally friendly and even has some good capacities as for energy transport and storage. Um, and this, this is, this is an interesting topic for me. Let's just compare, like ethylene glycol has a heat capacity of roughly three and a half. Um, whereas water would have 4. 2 kilojoule per kilogram and kelvin, which is optimum. Yes, and so this bio glycol has 3. kilogram and kelvin, which is already a bit better. However, viscosity is higher, pump energy will be a bit higher. But, uh, compared to like the classical, uh, um, propane dial, which has a, uh, um, a viscosity that is double from an ethylene glycol, uh, it's, it's interesting to look into this alternative. Uh, yeah, so this is, this is worth considering. Absolutely. It's a bit more expensive, but definitely future proof and not, and not, um, harmful to your product that there should be leaks. Yes, absolutely. Yes, that's, that's, that's right. Um, it depends how on, once again, once again, it depends on the, on the brewery, but yes, there's, uh, There are different ways of, of using those, uh, at the end, it's like anti freeze protection. That's, that's the reason why we're using it. Um, They're, but they're different of different products. Yes, absolutely. So you can use ethylene, propane, uh, how do you call it? Sorry. Propane. Propanediol. Yes. Thanks. And then also propanediol and also like, uh, pure, pure alcohol or stuff like that. There are different, different ways of doing it. Yes. Yeah. Actually these, the bioglycol and the classical propanediol are chemically so close to each other. that you need to be an expert to understand the difference. So you have to really investigate bio glycol. If you just Google propane diol, it will, it will hit the hit will be the old school stuff that you don't. Okay. Okay. So, but contact me if there's any interest in this. Uh, um, yeah, there's another remark in our brewery. I used, um, simply vodka. To, to carry the, the thermal energy. So, uh, 30% of ethanol blended with water and a bit of corrosion inhibitor. And this was very good because we have a very high heat capacity. And, um, and actually the viscosity is just marginally higher than the one of ethylene glucco. So this made a lot of sense for us. However, it's considered a, a flammable liquid. Uh, with the 30%, but for some reason Danish authorities didn't really mind because, well, I don't know why, but we were lucky. Okay. That's also a cool way of doing it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because you were on an island, you got away with anything on an island? Pardon me? Actually, uh, sometimes just as a gag, when I was giving guided tours in the breweries, I would, I would pour myself a glass and drink it. Because it was absolutely not harmful to the environment. It went, people from the brewery, they saw that, so they started doing the same. So I had to, so I had to bung that. Hopefully at the end of the, of the guided tour, not at the beginning. Dependent on my mood. Guys, is there anything else you'd like to add to the episode, or is there any summaries you'd like to make? So, maybe the brewers ask themselves, what can they do right now? So, I think one, one good idea is just to, um, to, to, to measure and to collect your, your data of your capacity or your, your, your energy consumption, sorry, not capacity, uh, energy consumption, especially for the chiller. Most of the brewers do it quite good. Like they, they know how much oil they use, how much gas they use, how much, um, yeast they use and stuff like that. How much water they use brewing water, but most of them don't know how much electricity or how much power they use for the different processes, like cooling or. Even, um, compressed air, it's also, uh, quite interesting. And that could be, could be a cool start just to, just to work with your system and get, get into your system, just, just collect data. And it's, it's not that expensive, like a, like a energy meter, we call it energy meter. You can, you can. Quite easily let it install from your local, um, um, electric guy and just to measure and see, okay, which process or which, which, uh, which part of my, my brewery needs, which power and, and, uh, which energy. And, um, that could be a cool start for itself. And after that you have also data to, to, um, compare with, with different. Seasons, maybe with the winter and with the, with the summer and with the fall. And, then you can just compare and see, okay, maybe what was, what was different or which, which, which kind of beer needs which power or stuff like that. that could be a cool start to, to, to do. Kind of a, um, system analysis to yourself or to your, to your brewery itself. Absolutely. Something I would strongly recommend doing as well. Uh, it's a good, it's a good project and it, and it'll, um, it'll be really educational for sure. Yes, yes. And just, just to have those data, maybe for, for, uh, for later, if you, if you change your, your cooler or your, your, your chiller, yes. I would like to say that things sustainable, um, what comes from nature. It goes back to nature. How could it be better? Biodegradable, non poisonous, if possible. Of course, ammonia is, of course, a tricky thing, but just think, like, by means of nature, and our planet, and our climate, and, uh, then at the end of the day, it should be a good result. I agree. Yeah. And pay more attention to your refrigerant and your and your chiller itself. It's quite easy to buy it and let it sit and run and maybe have someone come and service it once a year. But to actually pay attention on on what you can do with it. And if you're looking to buy a new one, there's quite a lot of information you need to know in order to make a good informed decision. I think, um, would it be okay if I put your some sort of contact details in the show notes in case anyone has any questions on it. On, uh, on refrigerants and, uh, and maybe chillers, et cetera. If they want someone's opinion. Sure. Why not? Maybe, uh, we have, we have a lot of, a lot of work, but I try to answer as fast as I can, Just, just a little key fact or a little to, to, to get a feeling how important it is to you. Um, see if you're, if your chiller is running probably or is running right, if you put down your set point of the chiller, just one Kelvin or one, one degree less than, than at the moment is it is like, if you put it from minus four to minus five or minus six, one, one Kelvin is like three to 4 percent more, um, electricity, um, power consumption, That's, that's a huge, it's a huge number. And if you have, if you, if you can check it and see, maybe I can, can put it up like on minus, minus four or minus three, it's also running quite good. Then that's the, that's the first, first step, first step of, of saving money, and, um, yes, just, just get into your cooling system and check it. If it's, if it is running good and create and, um, do what you want. Awesome. Yeah, that's a really good point. I really like that. Um, and I, it's nice to have those numbers. They're like, one degree is, roughly three or four percent. That really helps, uh, brewers. They live and die by numbers often, so it's really good. Yes, absolutely. Um, okay, guys. Well, if there's any, unless there's anything else anyone wants to add? No. Not at the moment, right now, no. Perfect. Okay, well, look guys, thank you so much for your time and your effort in this podcast. It's been really, really educational for me, which I hope means it's going to be, uh, really enjoyable for the listeners who are going to be listening to this. So both thank you, Jan, and thank you, Max, so much for coming on the podcast. You're welcome. You're welcome, very welcome, yes. Okay, that's it everyone. Thank you so much for listening to that, to the latest episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast. Um, the next episode will be out in a couple of weeks time and I hope to catch you there on the next episode of the Modern Brewer Podcast.