Motherhood intertwines deeply with mental health, a truth that becomes all too clear when you hear Tara Edelschick and Kathy Twan McLean, co-authors of "Moms at the Well: Meeting God Through the Mothers of Scripture-A 7-Week Bible Study Experience. Together, they share their experiences with such genuine openness. In the heart of this episode, we traverse the complex emotional landscape every mother knows well, from the light of joy to the shadows of struggle. Tara lays bare a transformative journey of faith and connection, while Kathy reveals the trials of her 'dark night of the soul,' and the peace she ultimately found through raw dialogues with her faith, her family, and herself.
Learn more and order Kathy and Tara's book: MOMS AT THE WELL
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Begin Your Heartlifter's Journey:
Motherhood intertwines deeply with mental health, a truth that becomes all too clear when you hear Tara Edelschick and Kathy Twan McLean, co-authors of "Moms at the Well: Meeting God Through the Mothers of Scripture-A 7-Week Bible Study Experience. Together, they share their experiences with such genuine openness. In the heart of this episode, we traverse the complex emotional landscape every mother knows well, from the light of joy to the shadows of struggle. Tara lays bare a transformative journey of faith and connection, while Kathy reveals the trials of her 'dark night of the soul,' and the peace she ultimately found through raw dialogues with her faith, her family, and herself.
Learn more and order Kathy and Tara's book: MOMS AT THE WELL
Take advantage of:
1. Discount codes:
For Small Groups: ORDER HERE using CODE: IVPGROUP25
25% on 1-4
40% on 5+ (Free Freight on USPS Economy)
For IVCF Alumni: Use Code: IVCFALUMNI 25% off (no free shipping)
2. Visit theirwebsite: https://www.welcomejesuswelcome.com/
This website includes:
Begin Your Heartlifter's Journey:
This episode is brought to you in full by Heart Lift International, a 501c3 dedicated to making home and family the safest, most secure place to be. Learn more and become a Circle of Trust. Member at JanelleRairdoncom slash HeartLift-Centralcom If that's confusing or you're walking or driving, just go to HeartLiftCentralcom and all the information you need to support the podcast is there for you. For you, Hello and welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. I'm Janelle and welcome.
Speaker 1:Grab yourself a cup of something delicious and probably a journal and a pen, because we're continuing our remarkable, raw, honest conversation with authors Tara Edelschick and Kathy Twan McLean Moms at the Well. In honor of May, we're closing out this month with a grand conversation on motherhood and mental health. We know that motherhood is the hardest yes, yes, it is and most rewarding job on the planet, and I know for sure it is the basis and the foundation for everything that I do now in life that a safe, secure home is truly the greatest gift you can give to a child. I've lived long enough, I have been in private practice long enough, I have parented enough and now I'm grandparenting To understand how vitally important the maternal gift is to a little baby. That's what they deserve. It's their birthright. Yet so many of us didn't get that. That's what they deserve. It's their birthright. Yet so many of us didn't get that and we're still having to work through some childhood traumas and other things that perhaps got in the way of us receiving that gift of secure attachment. But these two moms wow, I'm so grateful that they're here at such a time as this to continue talking to us about being a mother who is pliable and yielding to God so that we can become right, so that we can become this is our goal the heartlifter who stands in the center of her spheres of influence, with a healthy sense of self of her spheres of influence, with a healthy sense of self, healthy behavior patterns go ahead, repeat it with me and healthy communication skills. That does not mean we are perfect. In fact, it means we are perfectly imperfect, but we are women who know who to go to when we need help, and for me that's the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:I hope today's episode blesses you. Please meet me over on Instagram at Janelle Rairdon and on our brand new kind of sub stack, Heart Lift Central. Everything you need to find me, to find this episode and show notes is on the show notes. So welcome back, Kathy. We're starting with Kathy's story, how motherhood was a dark night of the soul period for her, and then we will continue with Tara as well. Here we go. So dark nights of the soul led you to Herodias, led you to understand generational trauma.
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't say that's the.
Speaker 1:The linear path.
Speaker 2:Dark Nights of the Soul was the anger. And you know, I had the privilege of seeing a spiritual director. I've seen a spiritual director for most of my adult life, since probably age 25. But I had one spiritual director for 14 years and especially during this period she was the person I saw and so it was interesting because, you know, I just would go every month and confess and kind of be in despair and I remember at one point she said to me well, you know, I don't think I ever stopped feeling really angry at my kids until they got older, and I'm a very patient person and I thought, oh, no, oh no, that's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:Oh dear it's never going to happen. I'm never going to conquer this, and so I do think I never conquered it. I think that my kids got older, yeah, but I do think that the invitation of God in all of it was to continually go back to God, right To say yes to God when God is calling me to meet God and to confess and to work on stuff. To continually say yes. What Tara said earlier. What we really see, and at least the ones we studied, is that it's especially step two, where you know step one is God meets us where we are, but step two is God invites us into an honest conversation. And almost always where you see the short circuiting of spiritual transformation, it's when women and probably men in scripture as well, but when people do not actually have the honest conversation with God, yeah, well, that's tough, and so I do think that what I did right in all those years is I kept on having the honest conversation not only with.
Speaker 2:God, but with my spiritual director, with my friends, with my husband and, frankly, with my children.
Speaker 1:You know, I was just going to ask how did you? How old are they now?
Speaker 2:28, 26, and 24.
Speaker 1:Oh, welcome to adult parenting.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know and 24.
Speaker 2:Oh, welcome to adult parenting. Yes, yes, I know, and you know it's very funny, because for me, because it was something I so did not want to be, I did not want to be the angry mom.
Speaker 1:I love that. You didn't want to be that.
Speaker 2:Scott had to just have such mercy on your heart's motive, and yet it's funny because my kids, although they like to joke about how angry I got and they like to tease me about how angry I got, they're all like it's not such a big deal, mom.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're very not.
Speaker 1:Thank you God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm like I don't understand. And you know, they may still need many, many years of therapy. There may be things that they will dig up. But I think, especially when they went to college, all of them got a perspective for some of the strengths that our family had and all that, and so they're all like, yeah, I wouldn't worry about it.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:What does that do?
Speaker 1:to you, though. I mean they're offering you, I mean number one, oh, I could just go on for that forever. I just think it's beautiful, I think that God, in his mercy, just saw your heart, and I do think that we're really hard on ourselves when we are mamas and I know that I was and especially if you don't want to repeat the patterns, if you've come from childhood traumas, you know and even back in the day they wouldn't have called an angry grandmother and an angry mother anything to leave any imprint of trauma on children. But it is well known now. I mean, I have dug deep into the anatomy of yelling, the anatomy of rage personally on a, you know, novice research, but it leaves such a deep imprint. But I think you maybe were really hard on yourself too.
Speaker 3:But anyway, Well, can I say, as an out there, kathy won't say this. Kathy has an incredible relationship with her adult children Love that and what Kathy did, better than most mothers who I know. And now they're saying that actually the rupture isn't as important as the repair. That's it. Kathy was really really good at repair, at seeking for confessing, seeking forgiveness, trying to reconcile.
Speaker 1:I'm really thankful, tara, that you that, cause I know everyone's hanging on with bated breath about this conversation, especially when it comes to adult children, which we've been. I was battling with a friend this weekend Like is there another word for this adult children thing, cause they're not really children, but they are our children. You know grownups and we can't find one, so we have to make one up, I guess. But I know that there are just so many women I've had them in my practice just over just laden with guilt over things that they did and their parenting mistakes, and so I appreciate, I appreciate so much you saying that, tara. And so what did that look like? Just because I know that my community is going to want to get the nuts and bolts, kathy, if they've got some young kids around or teenagers where it really can get explosive. What did your repair look like, if I can take the time to ask, look like, if I can take the time to ask.
Speaker 2:Well, in our family we talk a lot about reconciliation and in part it's part of our language, because my husband and I also had a very difficult marriage, especially our first 10 years, when the kids were little, and God really came in and healed our marriage at about the 10-year mark exactly at the 10-year mark, in fact, and again we'd been in therapy five times, we'd done inner healing work, we'd done all this and finally the fruit came through this marriage retreat. We did, oh so, even though we weren't reconciled. Like I always say, we're about 85% unreconciled our first 10 years and about 85% reconciled since, because I don't think it's possible to be 100%.
Speaker 1:But I think there are so many conversations that can happen from this conversation. So, okay, we'll just stop there, keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that because it was such a goal of my husband and I, even though we weren't enjoying the fruit of it, it's how we talk, right, he and I talk about reconciliation and forgiveness, as we were working very hard on ourselves and so, therefore, we talked about it with our kids and so, you know, it looked like saying, hey, I lost it, I am so sorry, it's not okay, it's not right, I don't want to be behaving that way and I know that I keep on saying this, so I'm really sorry, but I just want you to hear, and will you forgive me? And you know it went both ways. I mean, it went all ways in our family, like just trying to keep on saying it. And you know, now, with these adult kids, I keep on saying we did do family therapy last year and that was actually super helpful. Wow, even with adult kids just trying to work on some stuff. We only got to do five sessions because everyone's going different places, but even those five sessions super helpful.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh bravo, just trying to be a family. Like my husband and I always said, if we think we need to be in therapy, one person can say it and we'll go it's not. It's not shameful and you know we had kids in counseling and yes yeah, so this was the first time that all five of us were in counseling at one time that's my favorite thing to do on planet is have
Speaker 1:a family system and I love it.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, and so I think that part of the secret and so much of all that we're talking about, is to not try to do it alone. So, even when you and you know for me I would get mad at God because I'd be like God, how can you forgive me? I don't feel like I can forgive myself. How can you forgive me? And yet and that's also a bit of a pride thing, right?
Speaker 1:So it is. But one of the biggest things that has come out, I guess, even in the last 20 years, if not even in the last 10 years, is that there will eventually be one heart that rises in the generations that says no more. Lucky that person, right?
Speaker 3:That was me.
Speaker 1:But there there will be, and so I'm so grateful, Kathy, that you, you had the awareness and that you responded as you said. Number two God welcomes us into honest conversation. Number three God calls us to trust and obey. I would think a lot are short-circuited on the trust and obey part as well. The huge theme in this is the well. The huge theme in this is the well, and I can't let you go, I can't not address why that? Why that theme? Why? How did you both come into agreement that we need to call this Moms at the Well? Why was the well so?
Speaker 3:important to mamas. Maybe I'll talk about the survey, Kathy, and you can talk about Love it. Because I love that you two PhDs, you did your surveys, you did your interviews, Bravo bravo, yes, so we surveyed over 700 women and through that identified the themes that most women, that the biggest number of women, were struggling with and that's what you see in those chapter titles were running from pain. I mean, they didn't say they're running from pain, they said they're like hiding in the kitchen eating Oreos instead of or in the closet sipping wine.
Speaker 1:I've heard that many, many times.
Speaker 3:All of that.
Speaker 1:Get my mama juice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm so angry. All of these things, but one of the biggest things. So that's what the chapters of the book are based on. And then we went and interviewed women around these themes Good, but one of the and we didn't write a separate chapter about it, we structured the book for it. One of the biggest things that came up is that women are lonely, moms are lonely, they're so lonely and they said things to us. You won't believe this. The number of people well, you said it to us when you said I cried on the first page of the introduction. We've gotten many of that since the book came out. But many women said to us I cried taking the survey.
Speaker 3:Oh, I believe it and we're like what? And it was because nobody asks about foster moms, Nobody asks about step moms, Nobody asks about children who've died. Am I still a mom to that kid? Do you still count it? Nobody sees me anymore. Nobody sees how angry I am. Nobody sees that my kid is dealing with something that if I told anyone in my church they would no longer trust us. We are somehow bad Christians because my kid is dealing with this, so I can't tell anybody.
Speaker 1:Well, there it is right. We've been talking about this the whole time, because there's still a culture of shame, there's still a culture of spiritual bypassing. It's still there. So, okay, keep talking. This is right. On the money, so they're lonely.
Speaker 3:Yes, we could write about being lonely and we can affirm that you're lonely, but we're like. But what can we do to help women be a little less lonely? And so we've structured the book in ways that will help you be a little less lonely, even if all you do is have the courage to ask one mama to do this book with you. Like, it's great if you have seven or eight women and they want to get together and um, but even we I we got a great picture from a group of three women gathering and one of them has big curlers in her hair. I love it. That's so real.
Speaker 3:It's, I was like yes and so that's the reader you pictured.
Speaker 1:I have a feeling that they always tell you to keep that reader in your mind when you're writing. Yes, I had rose in my hair with twins going around. It's one of the few videos we have from back in the day because I'm so old. You know, in those things they used to write around in the kitchen. You know, and I'm like, I did it. I did it Okay.
Speaker 3:But we don't want you to have to do it alone, no, so we conceived of going to the well, and now Kathy can tell you why. That's a great metaphor for finding a way to not be alone.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it Okay.
Speaker 2:So in scripture we see that God is constantly meeting women at wells. In fact Hagar, who's sort of the patron saint of this book.
Speaker 1:In fact, studying Hagar is how the five steps came that we first noticed the five steps, let's just refresh, in case we do have someone who perhaps doesn't know who Hagar is, because I have learned through the years that I'm teaching and someone doesn't even know who David is, and so I've always thought I will. So Hagar is.
Speaker 2:Hagar is the enslaved woman that belongs to Sarah, or Sarai, at the time in Genesis 16. And she is probably given to them when they're in Egypt, abraham and Sarah, and when they are not having any children, even though god has promised that they will have children. Uh, sarai gives hagar to abraham to have, and so she's basically, you know, an enslaved woman, force. She sure is have the child of um, a man who she did not have any control over this.
Speaker 2:None, she didn't have any control, yeah, when she's pregnant with the baby. You know it's interesting because so many, if you Google her, there's a lot of negativity about her written and how she wasn't in her right place as a enslaved person, Like it's really bad, I know, and so you know. What it says is that Sarai treated her so badly that she fled that is what it says Thank you, yep.
Speaker 2:And so as she's fleeing a pregnant woman now, a single pregnant woman heading back to Egypt, which is hundreds of miles away, so very little chance she's going to make it she stops at a well, and this is the first time that the angel of the Lord ever shows up in scripture.
Speaker 2:So God shows up to an enslaved Egyptian, out of the family, outcast, single mom, outcast, yeah. And through her experience with God she learns that our God is the one who sees Elroy. She names yes, she names God Elroy, I know sees. She names God El Roy. And then God tells her to name her son Ishmael, which means God hears, right. So through her story we learn that God is the God who sees and hears us, and that's why that's our first chapter on feeling unseen. So we see throughout scripture many, many examples of God showing up at wells, of people gathering at wells, and as we've thought about it, we've realized, you know, wells are this amazing place where especially women gather, because it was usually the woman's job to go get water for the family. But what you're there for is for the water. And, of course, the story of the Samaritan woman who we have in our running away from pain chapter. What we really desire is the living water.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so. So that's, that's sort of the metaphor. But you know, when you kind of push it a little farther, you think about how wells, if they're broken down, if they're polluted, if they're damaged, then the water gets damaged. And so part of what we're really dreaming of in this moms at the wall idea is that moms and women would come together and create healthy spaces, create healthy wells from which the living water can flow and where everyone can drink and we have enough water for ourselves, for our families, for our neighbors, for our community.
Speaker 1:You're right. These wells are also great places to meet God. This shouldn't surprise us. God was always meeting women at wells. The Bible and this is what I loved the Bible uses several different words to describe places to get water, we could even say to get spiritually hydrated.
Speaker 1:Right, wells, springs, fountains are from Genesis to Revelation, and God shows up at them all. God found Hagar at a well we just said that when she fled abuse. God orchestrated Rebecca's marriage to Isaac when she came to draw water from a well. Jesus waited for the Samaritan woman at a well. Whether now you have our biblical sisters, I'm going to say whether heartlifters I'm going to get real personal here whether you are fleeing abuse, taking care of your family or hiding from a scornful neighbor, oh, god met women where they were. Women spent much of their day at wells ordinary days, painful days and even days of crisis. So naturally, god showed up at wells. Think of this book, this work, this mission that Tara and Kathy are on as a way to gather with other mothers at a well and drink in God's life-sustaining water. Wow.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. Wow, Can I ask why you went uh about the scornful? No, I know. Oh, you can't. Okay, that's fine. Okay, Do you disagree with us or no?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I will say because I prefaced before my second book uh, overcomingurtful Words was really a pre-dissertation or a pre-master whatever. Was pre-masters at that point for me of mean women, well-meaning women in the church, not outside the framework of faith, not outside the framework of faith. So for me that changed my life. It was a tipping point to have a fellow female leader who I just don't want to call mean, I don't. I wanted to prove she was well-meaning but in the end it was well-meaning. But in the end it was well-meaning because it changed my life and it woke me up much, maybe, like Hagar out in her desert journey, I mean, hello, I can't imagine being met by an angel and being told God sees you, god sees me, but he did tell me that I see you and what that was said about you is not truth. So I think and hope and pray that this study, this gathering, that you are envisioning women bringing their buckets to the well, their truth, that even if they're, I mean, we will be scorned, we will be attacked, we will be. But my goodness, let's say it again, right, kathy Tara, when women gather together in the indomitable spirit of unity, putting aside jealousies, comparisons, my story's worse than your story, or this, that and the other, or why do you have a million followers and I only have four? Or you know that's what I guess.
Speaker 1:It just hit me hard because I haven't really seen anybody put that in print that actually it could be a scornful neighbor or a scornful peer or a scornful fellow leader inside of a Christian group, but the reality is it's happening group. But the reality is it's happening. But I think you're helping us also with the framework. If we can identify, if, just like you, kathy, if you can identify, I don't want to carry this anger any longer. I don't want to carry this rage. Okay, well, where's it coming from? Do a little heart work, get some help, go to a spiritual director, go to a trauma-informed person, someone to help you be able to understand your trauma. And certainly having a husband die and then a child die is big T trauma. So are there women that are sitting around in groups doing the Bible studies? That are out there. I think you're just really inviting people to be gut, level, honest and giving them permission to just do it.
Speaker 3:Our communities, our churches will be so much healthier, so much more of a light to the world if we can tell the truth about what's happening. I know we need more truth telling.
Speaker 2:And the crazy thing is we all know that God knows.
Speaker 2:He already knows, right, there is nothing we can tell God that will surprise God already knows, right? There is nothing we can tell god that will surprise god, right? There's nothing that is so held secret and shameful that god doesn't already know. And so, yeah, when we can actually both tell god the truth, then that allows god to work right, allows the holy spirit to actually work in us when we can have the guts to tell each other hopefully we receive it with grace and not judgment and hopefully which is why we have our group norms and all that, and I'm holding it because I probably just need to go weep somewhere, but I'm really trying to um manage my emotions.
Speaker 1:it's called emotion regulation, ladies, because this is such a subject near and dear to my heart, and now I know it's near and dear to your heart. Knowing how to be honest in a group is an art form, is a learned model modality. You've learned it, you've lived it, and so can we just go over, if I can see it through my tears, the way that you have set up, tara. You have your book. Do you have the little rules? Cause I can't seem to find them.
Speaker 1:It's five, the group can move on. Okay, I have this page, is that not? That's not the one right? That's not the page. No, it's this page. Yes, and I have pages everywhere.
Speaker 2:It's the last page of the intro.
Speaker 1:I know, but if you can see my desk, I am a hot mess. Oh, I got it. I got it okay, All right, Okay, so if you would read the group commitments, because they are fabulous me no, kathy, thank you.
Speaker 2:All right, so we created the group commitments because we think this is how groups function best, but we do say if people would like to keep, modify or change them. So groups function well when members share the same commitment about how to interact. Look at these suggested commitments and decide if your group would like to keep, modify or add in. Listen actively without giving advice. Let folks finish their thoughts without interrupting. Take wise risks to share the vulnerable truth about your life. Be mindful of how much space you take up in the group. If you're a talker, listen more. If you're a talker, listen more. If you're a listener, talk a little more. Have a learning posture. Be open to what God has for you. Keep confidentiality. What's said in the group stays in the group.
Speaker 1:I was quiet through that. Are you proud of me?
Speaker 3:You can do a whole episode on each one of these right. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Can I like add on to this like an addendum, because I feel I was just going to ask you if you would do that Like, because I feel like, with Overcoming Hurtful Words, I created a whole leader guide, of course, and you probably already have that in the making, a leader's guide. But also we want everyone to learn how to lead, but I think most people generally don't know how to listen actively without giving advice. We just don't know, like, what does that even mean? Okay, let folks finish their thoughts without interrupting. Well, hello, like 10 years ago I would. I would never have known how to do that.
Speaker 1:Take wise risks to share the vulnerable truth about your life. Are you kidding me? I am Susie spiritual. I am so good and perfect, like you know. Be mindful of how much space you take up in the group. If you're a talker, listen. Who knows how to listen more. If you're a listener, talk a little more. I mean, this is so good and I just I encourage you both. I don't know what's going on and you don't need me to be telling you all this, probably. But you know, here I am talking Like I said, I'm not listening like I should, but I would just love to give more on this, and you probably will too, because I think if these groups can really get these seven ways to manage a group, it's going to be life changing.
Speaker 2:It will be the change the church needs to see and I so these commitments. You know they're often ones that you may use with a team that you're on, so they're very similar to ones that I've used with teams that I work with, and it can be helpful to actually read them every time that you're at a group.
Speaker 2:Yes, because we forget and I think especially for women the advice giving. It's just very, very hard for us to not do that and I'm guilty of that and you know. But I know when people are giving me well-meaning advice, I often feel patronized and it makes me not want to share more.
Speaker 1:That's really good. That's really good.
Speaker 2:So we're. You know, it's just helpful to to remember them every time.
Speaker 1:I think. But that's an absolute like at the beginning, the leader says that every time, yeah, because what's most needed is just uh, as Tara, you've already said, and I wrote big notes about it to talk more about. It is show up, kind of show up and shut up. You know it's like show up, shut up and then, you know, do something that serves that person, like Tony did for you. You know, and it has been a practice in my own life to learn to listen more than I talk. You know, what were we taught is? Well, some of us were taught we have two ears and one mouth because we're supposed to talk less than we listen, more than we talk. But it's also proven, as you know, as educators as well, or or team members, to offer questions so that people can find their own answers. Has that worked? Is that what you're saying in spiritual direction?
Speaker 3:It's like you're maybe not finding your own answers as much as listening to the Holy Spirit wants to answer. And so, yeah, especially as moms, like we're constantly doling out advice sometimes the detriment of our children being able to hear from God themselves, right, yes, yep, that can happen in groups as well, and my identity becomes someone who has a lot of advice to give and you're going to be my friend because I have so much advice to give and I'm going to be a good group member because I have so much advice to give. And in the process, well, mostly people just find you annoying, but all right, because I might give out too much advice, but also you crowd out people's ability. Where's Jesus in this? What's the Holy spirit offering right now exactly?
Speaker 1:terrible. If you're interested, go ahead.
Speaker 2:well, just this might be a little sidelight. So the program that I did for spiritual direction was called it's called sila. It's with leadership transformations incorporated. I'm not doing an ad here, but part of the thing. You know, it's a contemplative model and when I was interviewing for it they were like, okay, we know that you're a really good leader and we can see you're already a spiritual director, but can you not be the guru? Can you not be the priest? Can you not be the teacher? Can you be the person who just steps back and tries to usher in an experience of God? And at the time that I was like, yes, I can try. And then I was terrified because I thought, oh my gosh, what if God doesn't show up Right, Like then we're just going to sit there and be quiet, For really really long, so uncomfortable, yes, and so I've been a practicing spiritual director now for 10 years, you are, oh, and so I mean most of my work is being universal.
Speaker 1:All the other things I do.
Speaker 2:It's my little, it's my side gig and partly what has been so amazing, and it's in spiritual direction that I see this, but I see this everywhere that when we give God a little room to show up, god loves to show up and so taking a little pause, that's why, throughout the book, we have these things called Holy Spirit check-ins, and it's just taking a little pause to listen and you know, god may not say anything, but God may, but he might not, and silence is an answer Right. Because we haven't sat long enough.
Speaker 2:But either way, god loves to show up and love on us, and when we give God the time and the space, you might be surprised.
Speaker 1:Yes, we could keep going. I will just say most people just want you to answer for them, and at least in my work with clients talk, therapy and the other things that I do it's all, I'll go, ok, well, let's just see. And they're like no, tell me what to do. I need you to tell me what to do. I'm like well, I'm not telling you what to do anymore. I did that and didn't go so well. You know, so kind of learned my lesson, tara. Before we go, though, I have just a lingering question from earlier part of our conversation, when you lost your husband and your stillborn child. Two questions actually. One, well, a thousand questions, but two that I have time for. One is what was the most beneficial other than Tony? Like, was there a holy moment where God did show up to you? Personally, I would say in a whisper, or? And then two have you had other children and if you do, how many do you have? Because we didn't ask you that.
Speaker 3:I'll start by saying I have three kids. When Jeff and I got married, we had two sons and then later a 14-year-old girl from from our church. Both of her parents died and she came to live with us and is our daughter now. So her mother died. Her father, okay was ill and he has since died, and so I'm gonna start the answer to your first question and let Kathy finish it, because I won't be able to say it. When Kathy and I first started writing, and I was writing about how did I become a Christian, Kathy used to say where was Jesus when Scott and Sarah died? And I said I don't know, and that doesn't feel important to me, like I wasn't even a Christian. I don't know Jesus. That doesn't feel important to me, like I wasn't even a Christian. I I don't know Jesus was doing whatever Jesus does she's like. No, I think this is important. We need to keep asking where was Jesus when Scott and Sarah died?
Speaker 1:Okay. So then years later I get the answer Wow, kathy can tell you the answer. Okay, well, I love your friendship. I love it.
Speaker 3:I'm already starting to cry so I can't answer.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that we were having this conversation and you said, tara, something about how Jeff, your husband, had prayed for you. So there's this crazy whole little connection of Tara's good friend told another friend who happened to go to the church and prayed the prayers of the people, and so Jeff was there and Jeff prayed for Tara in this week that Scott and Sarah died. But so Tara said that I said but I prayed too. And she's like what? And I was like well, liz, who's the friend of her friend, was in my small group.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Liz was totally overcome at the horribleness of the story. So she came to our small group and asked our small group to pray.
Speaker 3:Oh, you have a lot of people. This is a woman I've never met, Janelle.
Speaker 1:I love this.
Speaker 2:I love this because I've never, met who is Aura's tenant.
Speaker 1:And then then Liz.
Speaker 2:So you know, I think small group was like Tuesday night, so we prayed on Tuesday night and then Sunday Liz stood up and prayed for Tara, and so I said to Tara so Jeff, it wasn't just Jeff sitting there, I remember Liz standing up and praying. I said I prayed, and that means Jean would have prayed and I think Helen would have prayed.
Speaker 1:And that's our prayer group.
Speaker 2:That's our prayer group. That's that four person prayer group.
Speaker 1:Prayed you into it.
Speaker 2:I was like Julie would have a friend who died, these people who became Tara's community.
Speaker 1:Intimates. That's correct Because. God saw you Tara.
Speaker 3:It's hard to get people to really follow the trajectory. I am an atheist in New Jersey, friends with an atheist in Boston. That atheist tells her Christian tenant, who then goes to church and prays, goes to her small group and prays. That tenant then moves back to England and I never hear about her. No one ever hears about her. I moved to Boston, I fall in love with Jeff, I get married, I'm in this prayer group and no one is connecting that I'm the woman. And then this is what I'm trying to say oh, wow, and then Liz who's back in England, wow.
Speaker 3:And then Liz, who's back in England, is talking to Ora, says hey, how's Tara doing? She says you won't believe this. She's become a Christian and she just married this guy named Jeff at Harvard. And Liz goes Jeff Barnison, she says yes and she goes. I was at church with Jeff. He was praying for her during the prayers of the people. So do you understand? People say what was Jesus doing? I was like he was in Boston getting my community ready he was.
Speaker 1:He was already at work, which is what we know here in our heads, but rarely do we see it happen and make it all the way to our heart. So you have just encouraged a million people.
Speaker 3:Pray for people and get in groups. This is how God changes everything.
Speaker 1:Even if they're an atheist.
Speaker 3:Even if they're an atheist.
Speaker 1:Wow, you guys. You've changed my life. What an honor to meet you both. I want to be with you and have tea or coffee or whatever beverage of your choice. I just hope that someday that might happen, because you have changed my life and I have no doubt that you're going to change many, many lives, and I pray that this study goes way beyond the borders and the walls of the buildings right and reaches women who are atheists.
Speaker 3:Hallelujah.
Speaker 1:Right, women who are being scorned by their neighbors and given up on the church and saying I don't ever want to go back in that place because women are mean.
Speaker 2:Just so many women, women who are out in their desert, pregnant, forlorn, lost because they are out there and they are in our neighborhoods and they're as close as the grocery, grocery store. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Will you please come back, of course.
Speaker 1:So, heartlifters, I want to hear your thoughts. I have so many, I have so many notes, one particular being continually go back to God and continually say yes to God. Kathy said she felt that that was the critical piece in why she was able to continue to move forward and eventually have victory. She brought out that step two God invites us into an honest conversation is often where we get short-circuited right. Our faith journey stops or goes backwards, but we don't move forward because we, I don't know. You tell me, I'd like to know why you think perhaps we don't go into an honest conversation with God. Is it fear? Is it a grudge? Is it bitterness? Is it? I don't know. I want to hear from you. Why is it that we wouldn't go continually back to God and continually say yes to God? And then, on the other hand, tara brought up what she thought was the secret to Kathy's victory with her children, her marriage and her family, and what she witnessed was that Kathy was excellent at repair, or finding her way how to repair. I bet that's probably true. I didn't ask that question, but if you haven't learned how to repair relationships in your family of origins, or if you haven't learned how to manage conflict properly, which is my case, my husband's case. You don't know, you don't have the tools, you don't have the wherewithal to do the repair work. So that's why we're here. So the rupture isn't as important as the repair, and so I am dedicating myself to learning more and to bringing you a future episode on rupture and repair. It's peppered all throughout many of the conversations that we have here on the podcast, but I want to dedicate a whole podcast just on the mechanics of perhaps offering the way to repair. If you are someone who has a habitual habit, like Kathy perhaps just couldn't overcome the rage and the anger that had been passed down through her generations. Honestly, also, how important forgiveness is. We have given a lot of attention to that here and I will post some of our past conversations.
Speaker 1:So, once again, meet me on Instagram at Janelle Reardon, but here's where I'm really going to be hanging out over the summer months and while I'm sabbaticaling, is that a word On our Heart Lift Central sub stack platform. Please meet me there. At Heart Lift Central, there is a free subscription and a paid subscription, which is $5 a month or $50 for the year. Also, please, please, would you leave a review of the podcast. You can go to heartlipcentralcom or janellrairdencom slash podcast. Go all the way to the bottom of that page and you will see the easy steps to leave a review and to give us a five-star rating. That means so much If you have continued listening and you're still here. Please take a moment to do that. Okay, HeartLifter, remember you have value, worth and dignity. Smile at your future because it's a good one.