Building a Women-Empowered Community, with Jessica Kupferman of She Podcasts

When Jessica Kupferman steps up to the mic, you know you're in for a blend of wit and wisdom that can only come from a true pioneer in the podcasting world. This episode is a celebration of her indelible mark on the industry, particularly when it comes to amplifying women's voices and providing a bullhorn for independent podcasters. We traverse Jessica's storied journey, from the spark that ignited female-centric podcasting communities to her role in nurturing a space where women's unique experiences in the medium are not just heard but cherished.

With laughter and community spirit, we spotlight Jessica's ingenious blend of technology expertise and comedic flair. Her forthcoming ventures with She Podcasts are a testament to her relentless hustle and the joy she brings to the podcasting universe. As you listen, prepare to be inspired by Jessica's dedication to building networks through humor and a solid work ethic that has reshaped the podcasting landscape.

THAT has made her a Power Mom!! Listen in…

Join Our Power Moms Community for More: PowerMomsNetwork.com | Email the Power Moms: PowerMoms@FlintStoneMedia.com

Host and Executive Producer: Producer Jaime ("Jemmy") Legagneur | Email Me! Jaime@FlintStoneMedia.com | Follow on Instagram: @FlintStoneMedia

Guest Power Mom: Jessica Kupferman of She Podcasts

More About Jessica: Marketing and sales expert with a history of being both the devil's advocate and the first person to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Follow Jessica: Instagram (@JessKupferman) | Instagram (@ShePodcasts)

Link: Jaime Wins her First Podcasting Award

Link: Submit Your Mothhood Advice

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

All right. So this is such a fun interview I already know I'm declaring it before it even gets started. First of all, because she and I my guests today have known each other for so long and so well and we're both so open that we both admitted that we're so happy we actually showered today, because as moms, sometimes they don't happen. So welcome to the show Shower, jessica Kupferman.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Thank you. Yes, you'll never see her again. It's good.

Speaker 1: 0:25

How are you? Was that the best intro?

Speaker 2: 0:27

ever. Yes, thank you, she's filthy Welcome.

Speaker 1: 0:34

So she gets fouled mouth during this interview.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Maybe that extends, but, jessica, so glad to have you Thank you, so I want to frame this a little bit for for the, the people who are listening, because you know, this is a huge moment and I'm in the midst of we've been launching the Power Moms Network. So, first of all, I just want to say officially that Jessica is part of the Power Moms Network advisory board and we're so excited to have you because you are I don't know if I've said this to you, I don't think I have you are one of the bases of inspiration for all of this. You know, I had this kind of thought in my mind. I couldn't kind of crystallize as to what I wanted to do, but I've won. I've been driven to help women, to help mothers, and you're one of the people who I've been watching how you've been doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Yeah, thank you, of course, of course, but more to the for better, for worse, I'm sure, for better for better. But here's more to the point. It's not just that I've been watching you. You have this gift of making people feel seen, and you've made me feel seen. So, in 2017, when I first met you, you gave I know you call it a superlative, I don't care you gave me my first ever award. I don't want to.

Speaker 2: 1:46

I don't want to deny it was an award. It was just that, I don't know, at the time elsie had a thing about like having official awards, because she didn't want anyone to feel like that, because it was awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Let me tell you I felt yeah so seen and it was um, it was a learning moment for me to to say I want to create that for other people at some point down the line in my life yeah, oh my god, absolutely. And then again, because I really want people to understand why I'm this is I'm so happy to have you again at podcast movement.

Speaker 1: 2:18

I first saw you at podcast movement and it was when I was first getting the idea going for Florida Podcast Network and you sat down with me and you gave me I don't even know like at least a good half hour, a good chunk of your time, and you talked to me about building community, about sponsorships, about all those things, and it was like my own little personalized mini masterclass. So, yes, I don't even remember. Thank you, jessica, for being a huge inspiration for why power bobs even exists.

Speaker 2: 2:50

And now that's the end of the interview. We're done. That's so nice. I mean, we've had so many nice conversations. I may have given you a masterclass without even realizing like to me it was just us. I know, I know because that's who you are.

Speaker 1: 3:03

You just, you're constantly giving Thank you and I love that. If I were to boil it down, I think it's bringing women together into community, but also, more to the point, it's it's being an advocate for independent voices, I think for as long as I've known you. So when I was I don't know why I did like probably I'll admit it clearly that I did like little prep for this, because there's so much I already knew from the heart I wanted to talk to you about, but I did.

Speaker 2: 3:34

I used to do no prep for my interviews whatsoever, because I like it better when you, when it's organic anyway.

Speaker 1: 3:41

But I went to the website and I saw something that made me bust out laughing because I was like, oh my god you talked about. You started your business podcast because at the time there a lot of uh well, I get a quote young white dudes interviewing other young white dudes yeah, it's all there was, and they were just like having a little, I mean yes, you can. I know exactly, I know that. Go ahead.

Speaker 2: 4:07

They were having a little circle jerk with each other. That's all it was, and it was really frustrating because I really wanted to grow and if they weren't going to help me then I was going to have to do it myself, which you know just another day, just another day.

Speaker 1: 4:20

So that's oftentimes how women feel we're like we kind of feel left out and that we have to do it ourselves and then we have to help each other. So so what have you seen that's changed in the industry in that regard? And what have you seen that hasn't changed in the industry in that regard of? Is there still? Is it still just a big circle jerk?

Speaker 2: 4:40

I mean I actually wouldn't. I mean I don't know if I wouldn't know or if I stopped noticing, because I stopped soon after that, when I realized that those people were not helpful and or weren't going to help me, I sort of stopped paying attention. Lot of them still have like podcasts, but like, the people that I was referring to there specifically was like john lee dumas um derrick, what's his name? Amy porterfield um what the hell is his name? Darren, something darren, I don't know. Um lewis howes, at the time demon simon garland, like, and first I tried getting on their shows. That clearly wasn't happening.

Speaker 1: 5:21

They were mostly interviewing men, so frustrating do you know how many times people asked to interview glenn about starting florida podcast network? I'm like I owed it. It was, but but I hello sorry, go ahead. I know, I just had a flashback.

Speaker 2: 5:34

It's frustrating. I'll tell you something else. I just put scott on my, like he. He just got on my either on my website or somewhere where he's listed his staff and now all the money, like here let me give you money, it all goes to him now which I'm like disgusting.

Speaker 2: 5:50

I believe it disgusting anyway meanwhile, if they only knew what a disaster that would actually be. He, he starts sweating at the thought of money much less. He's like just oh, but anyway, yeah, so. So I so first I tried getting on their shows, then I tried doing masterminds and stuff, so that I could get to know them as a student, and then maybe they would put me on their show like, please, please, can I, can I be included?

Speaker 2: 6:18

yeah, I mean, it worked a little bit it worked a little bit, but not I mean. But it turned out that most of the masterminds I was taking I could have taught better, specifically lewis and david, like I was just like, oh my god, correcting them as they were speaking.

Speaker 1: 6:34

There's so many times when I'm in the audience I would be doing. I could get up there and do a better job yeah, this is not right.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, after that I just sort of stopped, but I will say that at the time there were so many shows that weren't, or that were just about entrepreneurship, it just all. The first boom pre-serial was entrepreneurship. Every entrepreneur and their mother had a podcast that was telling you how to run your business. And then serial came in, I guess, 2014. No, 2015. It was after I had my little one. And then, as soon as that happened, true crime exploded Health and fitness, you know. Right around then NPR put every show they've ever thought of online.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is a great move, you know, and every newspaper, I mean yeah, they've ever thought of online, yeah, yeah and um, you know. And every newspaper, I mean yeah, but I mean. So I think what's changed is just that the, the platform, doesn't just belong to content creators or original content creators anymore, and I don't think that's a bad thing, you know, because it's so well-rounded, like now it's sort of like you can think up anything in your in your pretty head, and it will. There will be a podcast for it, which is cool. May not be a good podcast, but there's got to be one out there for everything but?

Speaker 1: 7:55

but you're right, I think. I think the nature of this space podcasting specifically because there's microphones involved, there's like almost no barrier to entry anymore and you know you can just basically have your phone and there you can podcast. There's microphones involved, there's like almost no barrier to entry anymore and you know you can just basically have your phone and there you can podcast. There's no one stopping you anymore, there's no FCC regulations, like it's not like that. So I think this space is very fertile for allowing voices that normally wouldn't be able to rise above to be able to rise above, rise above, to be able to rise above. And so that's why, part part, what I've appreciated so much about you you capturing this in this industry for women, because it's not just about amplifying your own voice, it's also about giving a platform for women to amplify theirs. So you started that. The women who podcast group. Okay, just to say, hey, listen, there are women who podcast. Hello, like, we're here too.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Yeah, rather than be putting words in your mouth.

Speaker 1: 8:47

What was, what was your impetus for starting that, that group, that community?

Speaker 2: 8:52

I mean, I actually did start it and called it women who podcast, because there was no Facebook group named that.

Speaker 1: 8:58

if you can even believe that, I completely believe you at that at that time. I completely believe why you called it Simply Women Podcast.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Because that's who I wanted to talk to pretty much and that's all I want. Yeah, so I was at a conference, the New Media Expo, which I believe ended up turning into Blog World, or had used no, it had used to be Blog World, and then it was New Media Expo. So lots of bloggers, lots of entrepreneurs, and my flight was late. It was in january. I was supposed to be going to vegas, my flight was delayed and canceled twice, and then I saw that elsie was hopping a flight to vegas to go love her.

Speaker 1: 9:36

Elsie escobar of lipsons the feed, yep yeah, and she podcasts, yeah yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: 9:42

And she had a layover in philly, which is right down the street from me. So I was like, oh, what's the flight number? And I like rushed my pajamas to meet her. That's amazing. Yeah, that's how. And so I I already knew her online, like we had taken an online class together, but I didn't know her. I've never met her in person. We met at the gate. She refused to sit next to me on the airplane or ask anyone to switch can't.

Speaker 1: 10:01

And imagine why?

Speaker 2: 10:04

And then when we got there she had to go to Whole Foods and pump. So I was like, okay, I'll see you later.

Speaker 2: 10:11

She was breastfeeding. Yeah, I was like cool, cool, cool, See you later. But I only knew about six or seven women at that, and I had already started my first show, which was Lady Business Radio. And at that conference I met Katie Kramitzos, I met Natalie Ekdahl. They were both doing women's business shows. Both of them were like I was so inspired by your show that I started my own and I was really proud of that.

Speaker 2: 10:34

And then I met Mignon Fogarty, who's Grammar Girl, and a couple other women who are podcasting, and I just wanted to have them all in a little group to myself when I left, because it was just a sea of men and I just had the feeling that men don't deal with podcasting issues the same way that women do, and at the time. For me, that was tech, that's simple, software that's easy, not too complicated, not too long, too long, not too detailed. I don't want to edit it like I'm.

Speaker 1: 11:08

You know, mozart and it's not because we're too dumb to understand it, it's because we don't have whatever genetic need. We they that bed dude like geek, totally geek out on all the little tiny.

Speaker 2: 11:20

they have the freedom god bless them and and the time to do more, to get more into nitpickiness in podcasting than we do. We have a message we want to get out and we want to do it without hassle.

Speaker 1: 11:34

I just a lot of my life is me avoiding hassle and this was just one of those times, so like I really do go out of my way to avoid it, yeah, so seriously, this was it was it's like the crystallization of like I had this idea that came together for power, moms, and when I, when I thought about when I was getting ready to talk to you today, I was like, really so much of the reason why I started this in terms of this specific frustration of not being able to get have my voice heard at the table because it's full of men, or having the discussions not apply to me or take into consideration what's actually the reality of my life as a mother, as a woman and so, and so I needed that and so I love that. That's part of why you started that and you're able to recognize when you saw these women scattered, that there was.

Speaker 1: 12:25

yeah, so, but here's what I love. I love that you not only saw, hey, I just want to keep these numbers at my fingertips and reach out to them.

Speaker 2: 12:33

No, you made a whole community woman. Their advice was so much more valuable in that weekend than any man I came across. And I mean I specifically went out of my way to ask, like John Lee Doobus, questions about growth and you know, and, and then the answer he gave me, god, I mean it was so. God bless him, right, but it was so, mathy. I was like how do you grow? And he was like how long is your show? I said about an hour and he goes, split it into two half hour shows and your downloads have doubled. And I was like, thanks, like I couldn't figure that out, matthew matthewson okay, okay for the people who are listening and not watching.

Speaker 1: 13:10

You know the face that squidward gives to spongebob all the time that's the face.

Speaker 2: 13:18

I was trying to do the flat um the line smile emoji, like I was just so annoyed. You nailed it. It was annoying. It was annoying and I was like not disappointed. Here's a lovely person, but I was just disappointed in what I thought was going to be a magical secret. It was really like do whatever you can, you know, do hustle, do what you got to do is really the answer. And I didn't want that answer. I wanted an answer that more that like Mignon would give me, or that Elsie would give me, or that you would give me, which is like literally anything else, to cut your show in half.

Speaker 1: 13:51

But you know what's funny? I think the lack of a good answer, a lack of an answer that was relevant to you, ended up getting you to move in the direction that ended up actually being the answer.

Speaker 2: 14:02

actual answer was yeah, community was, relationships, was collaboration like all of those things were actually the answer. You guys can all thank john lee dumas. He's actually. He's actually also the person that taught me how to podcast. Because I googled how to podcast, his little five dollar ebook came up on amazon and that's what I used to just slap it together in like two weeks, my first show. Yes, we owe it all to JLD, I'm sorry to say. He loves it when I say it.

Speaker 1: 14:32

There's always a man at the top. There's always a man.

Speaker 2: 14:35

He loves what I say, even if you have to be inspired to do the opposite of that man. There's always a man, but yeah, Exactly, Exactly, Exactly.

Speaker 1: 14:48

But what I do love is that you did. You were inspired to do the opposite because, as a growing podcaster so 2017, I'd been doing it about three years at that point and trying my damnedest to get seen. I mean, that's why you guys gave me that award. You're like she's all over the place.

Speaker 2: 15:01

I was I will not be ignored. I was that girl. Was it the most hard working, or something?

Speaker 1: 15:05

because you were busting oh no, that's, that's listen. You do not go for boring when you your awards. You called it the. You called it the in your face award.

Speaker 2: 15:16

I got the in your face podcast really, it just meant this woman is everywhere. Uh, she's what it means. It meant to me that you're working really hard. You know who would win that award now ariel nissenblatt.

Speaker 1: 15:32

She is everywhere, or she was amazing because it was amazing, because I walked into that room so it was um like a pre pre-day for pod fest, like attached to it as a pre-day. So I walked into that room, so it was um like a pre pre-day for pod fest, like attached to it as a pre-day. So I walked into that room full of women and you and elsie walked up to me and knew who I was, which blew the heck, like blew my mind right of course we know who you were teaching me, though I was learning while I was experiencing this how to make people feel seen, and how I've carried that with me.

Speaker 1: 16:08

For are you ready? For how long I've carried that with me? You ready? I?

Speaker 2: 16:30

can't believe you have this. Oh my god, I can't believe you have it. Where did you get this from?

Speaker 1: 16:57

you cried so, yes, yes, dreams do come true, because you showed me that the dream can. I could like cry right now, but god, the dream can extend so much further than than yourself. And my show at the time was called curve the cube and it was about dreamers becoming doers, and so the dreaming was, I mean, huge for me. That, that concept of having a dream, martin luther king, you know it was like dreamers becoming doers, and so the dreaming was, I mean, huge for me. That concept of having a dream, martin Luther King, you know it was like have a dream, it could be such a big thing.

Speaker 1: 17:32

And I had this dream and you made me feel, seen, there were moments when, in the early part of my career, where it's like I just needed that push, I needed that validation I need, and you were there to give that. And so I want to say, first of all, thank you for that, but, but then also thank you for the learning lesson of that, because you lit a spark, mama Right, and I'm carrying that torch with tons of pride as I build power moms, so clearly you're good at making people feel seen.

Speaker 1: 18:09

You're good at building specifically women empowered and empowering communities. So I guess my question now is this, because that's, that was my first introduction to the community. I love it, that little moment there.

Speaker 1: 18:22

I love it. I called you a hustling fool. How have you seen the community? Yeah, you called me a hustling fool. It was the best day ever. I know it was so funny. How have you seen that community evolve? Because I know with the pandemic it took a hit because you guys were starting to do your own conferences and stuff. So just how, what's the state of the union these days with the she Podcasts community?

Speaker 2: 18:43

You know, at the time I really thought the event was going to be the way to get everyone together. I still believe that, had we not had a pandemic. But I have to say I've spent the last four years so engrossed in cleaning up a pandemic mess, financial mess of the pandemic and stuff like that that.

Speaker 2: 19:03

I haven't really dedicated as much time to the community itself as I would like to, which is kind of why we started the Sonic Bloom Awards, because I I really do want to highlight and acknowledge people who work hard not just for our industry but for their own industry. That they're just like killing it on the. You know in the name of you know like Jenny wetter, repro. You know in the name of you. Know like jenny wetter, repro. You know reproductive rights and, um, she's just the first person that came to my head, but there, but there are so many right. So you know, like nicole walker and latrice, like stories all around us, like those, are amazing I just released an episode with nicole walker today.

Speaker 1: 19:43

literally just released an episode with her today, I swear to God.

Speaker 2: 19:46

She's amazing. She's, you know, and they're all so dedicated that I, you know we didn't want to go unnoticed. But I can't say that I'm as close. First of all, when we first started the group, it was like, I mean, it quickly shot to 5,000 people, but like I felt like I knew them, like I knew them, whereas now it's 21,000, I guess like six or 7,000 are active, and that makes sense, because once you start your podcast and you're going, you may not need the group as much as you did, but I wish I had a better pulse on it, but you know it. Also, we really wanted the people in the community to support and educate each other, and so that has definitely, has always been that way and it is still that way. You can post anything in that group and someone will be kind enough to respectfully answer your question without making you feel stupid, which is all we wanted, right?

Speaker 1: 20:37

So, like I mean, I don't know that I have to be in there so much anymore you know, yeah, you've you set such an example of that collaborative spirit and everything that I can see. How that, how that's true, you know, yes, I'm very lucky that it does sort of bleed through what you do.

Speaker 2: 20:54

You know, like if you, if you set certain behavioral standards in a community for yourself, then other people just follow it, which is great, and so it's something that we didn't even want responsibility for at first. Like elsieie and I were like you lead it, no, you lead it, you lead it, I don't want to lead it.

Speaker 1: 21:12

So we're like all right, that's so interesting because it totally flies in the face of the whole idea of women have to be are our cutthroat. It also flies in the face of, you know, the people who are leaders. They then have to be competitive with each other. That's not at all how. You guys neither of us are.

Speaker 1: 21:31

No, not at all, and you've built such the whole community. That's the spirit of it, and I think so. So I'm curious, though. So you talked about why you started the community in terms of a reaction to having it be like all men talking about podcasting and helping each other. But why so, if a lot of women, almost every woman on this planet, has experienced feeling like they can't get their voice heard? Not all women take action and do anything about it? What do you think it was within yourself that made you feel like I need to do something? Why does Jessica? Why is Jessica a doer?

Speaker 2: 22:11

Oppositional defiance. That's why that is seriously, why I didn't realize until recently how much that has fueled my life. But it is pure. I mean like I always tell my my 25 year old, I was like because, um, you know, like I graduated college, I mean like I had dropped out to have my daughter and then, um, my father-in-law was like I don't think you'll ever go back and I was like you want to. Are you sure about that? I'm sure he was just trying to goad me, but you know you, he maybe knew exactly what to say. You can accomplish a lot with spite. And so I was like. I was like I'm spiteful. I felt spiteful and resentful.

Speaker 2: 22:53

I mean, like I went to the first podcast movement the first podcast movement was almost all white men speakers, except for Jamie Tardy who had only been, who was doing the state of podcasting and had only really been doing it for like three years. You know, people who have been doing it a long time were furious about that that first year. Um, but yeah, I think the doing is just like being annoyed enough and impatient enough and, you know, stupidly brave enough, I guess. Like I, like I have, I always think something's going to be easier than it was.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I mean, first of all, it was just a tiny, you know Facebook group with all my friends. I didn't know that it was even going to turn into this. It wasn't specifically the dream, it just sort of happened. Um, I didn't, I didn't set out with that goal of becoming a leader in the you know and I still, like I said, it was kind of you got accidentally, went in that direction.

Speaker 1: 23:47

It was brilliant.

Speaker 2: 23:47

Yeah, I mean like I had a baby and when I came back the, the women's entrepreneurial community was pretty well taken care of in the podcasting community, else he was like drowning without someone else helping in that group. So I just started dedicating all my time to it because somebody needed you know to to help and I just you know to to help and I just you know, to help her. So I and it wasn't just hers, it was just like I started the group and then seven months later I had a baby. So it was, you know, it's just timing. But yeah, I mean, as far as doing, though, I think I'm not as kind and sweet. I mean like I'm just impatient and annoyed. And it's true, it's like, if I'm impatient and annoyed, like I think one time I went to podcast movement and I was like why are all the T-shirts always fucking navy blue? I'm sick of this shit.

Speaker 1: 24:34

You can't have a green.

Speaker 2: 24:36

And why are they always all men's?

Speaker 1: 24:37

cuts when I you know when you have. Can we get a V-neck on some of them? Can we get an amen for a V-neck?

Speaker 2: 24:43

Yes, my God, when you wear, when you have big boobs and you wear all the way up to your neck, it just looks like they fall in five inches. It's not nice, it's not nice gentlemen, if you're listening.

Speaker 2: 24:54

It's not good. So, yeah, so, like a looser, I don't know, I just was like there's nothing pretty here to look at, there's nothing fun here to look at, there's nothing fun here to look at, it's all tech shit and white dudes and black t-shirts. I just, you know, I'm in this, I'm a visual person, and I got you know. And then, and I am, and you know, with my friends I started bitching about it, just like this, and they were like you should have your own show. And I was like I don't know, but you know, I was just being funny doing shtick and they were like no, no, no, we would like you to do that. And I was like, oh, all, right, cool.

Speaker 1: 25:31

Okie dokie, jessica sees something that must be done and Jessica shall do it.

Speaker 2: 25:40

I mean, there's got to be even if you've never done this before. There have got to be times you can look back on your life and been like you're doing a job that makes no sense in a company, when, a they don't even need this job done and, b your skillset is so much better for something else.

Speaker 2: 25:55

Don't you just go to like I'm the type of person that will go to my boss and be like listen, this is all great, but here's how this would be more efficient and here's how I would help you with that. I can't just sit and do stupid shit for the rest of my life for no reason, Like I can't. I wish I could believe me. If I could, my life would be so much simpler and I wouldn't have been fired so many times, probably for having a big mouth.

Speaker 1: 26:23

All right, all right. So then now you mentioned you've mentioned your daughter, you mentioned your kids what do you, while your kids are, seeing what you, seeing what you do, building a community? Well, I first. Actually, I was going to ask you about your boys first, but I want to ask you about your daughter first. So, because I think there are a lot of parenting stories that I don't think get spoken about enough. You of, like, miscarriage, I don't think gets talked about enough, those kinds of things. So your journey is another one that doesn't get spoken about enough. So I would love for you to tell us a little bit about this story. But first, start just telling us about Emily, because whenever you post about her, I'm like, oh man, I wish I could have met her. I wish I could have met her. She's very funny. So tell us about Emily, because whenever you post about her, I'm like, oh man, I wish I could have met her.

Speaker 2: 27:07

I wish I could have met her Tell us about Emily.

Speaker 1: 27:11

She would have been 27 last month, correct?

Speaker 2: 27:13

Yeah, the 22nd. Yeah, a couple weeks ago. Yep, she would have been 27. She passed away at 19 from a drug overdose in Utah, which is across the country. I had sent her to Utah as a last resort because rehabs just weren't working. Anyway, let's start at the beginning. So she was always so she's hilarious.

Speaker 1: 27:33

She was hilarious and funny and quirky, can't imagine where she gets it from. What can I say?

Speaker 2: 27:42

But she was very sassy and you know, and like, yes, I have all those traits, but she also has always been kind of quirky, mental health wise. She, you know like just little, I don't know. Like you're a kid and you know what it's like to be a kid. So when your kid does something you've never even considered to be normal, you're like, oh God, is she an alien from another planet or what I don't know, notice, yeah, so she kind of was like that, like even in the womb.

Speaker 2: 28:12

Honestly, I've never thrown up so much in my life, ever. But with the boys, no, nothing healthier than all get out. But with her, oh my god, it was amazing. I'm alive, I just threw up so much and I had no expectation of it, anyway. So yeah, our relationship was like that. Sometimes she would hate my guts because I wouldn't let her do what she wanted that's every kid, I guess and most of the time I was like her best bud. But she still had a tendency to do stuff like. I'll give you an example she um hated gym class, like, and so she would forget it was gym day and wear high heels and those gym teachers were onto her and be like you're gonna do basketball in those shoes, I don't care, oh my goodness yeah a couple times we made her do shaunti's workout and she was like that man is a sadist.

Speaker 1: 29:11

But yeah, so Apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Miss Oppositional Defiance no I think all three of them are actually, and I mean, if I can just allow them to, somehow it hasn't gone well so far. I mean, like the first 20 years of your life, if you're oppositional, it's really no good. It's only when you become an adult and you become in charge of your own things that you're just like. You know what I'm going to do, since I don't like this. You know, you just have to harness your talents for good instead of evil. Don't take revenge. You just have to create something better, or you have to show this person that they've disrespected the wrong person, or whatever it takes. Whatever it takes for you to do something productive with your disgruntledness.

Speaker 1: 29:53

Do you often find that your advice, or how you give advice, how you teach to your children, mirrors how you would give, let's say, advice to a budding podcaster on a couch at a conference? You know how you like telling telling people how to guide their lives yeah, is it similar?

Speaker 2: 30:10

yeah, probably. I'm pretty straightforward and I and I try to simplify concepts so that it doesn't feel overwhelming and, and I probably mother like- that too yeah because I saw, um some, something you posted recently.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Because, uh, for anybody who's wondering, geez jimmy knows a lot about.

Speaker 2: 30:29

Yes, I stalk her, but we're friends on facebook so it's like allowed or whatever. So I told you, I told her a set into relationship miss.

Speaker 1: 30:40

I've watched it for years, the dating pain, so I saw that one thing about your parenting that I thought was really interesting, cause I'm like, oh my gosh, that resonate with that. So much you don't lie to your kids about anything. No, never, and and and and. Let me tell you like I think little lies are lies too Like they're all lies.

Speaker 2: 31:00

They all create mistrust.

Speaker 1: 31:01

There's a whole box of donuts in the in the cabinet and your kid wants a donut and they're not allowed to have it. Just tell them why they're not allowed to have a donut. Don't tell them there's no donut. Just say listen, they're donuts, you're not allowed to have one. Go sit down.

Speaker 2: 31:11

Yeah, I mean, if they can see the box, you're just a liar to say they don't exist. And kids don't like liars, they don't. So if you tell them like my sister's done a lot of this, actually she's different from me. First of all, she's much more concerned about organic food and health and wellness. She lives in California. We grew up in the East Coast, so like she went there for what my great-grandmother said, for the weather. But she did do a lot of like sugars, poison, you know that kind of thing and and still I think you know. Or or if somebody passes away and and you don't want the kid to know exactly what happened, like she makes some, she makes things up and then later they're like later they're like oh, mom lied to us about this.

Speaker 2: 32:01

Mom lied to us about that. I don't want to. I don't want to do that, I have I lied. Mom lied to us about that. I don't want to. I don't want to do that, I have. I lied to my older son one time. He still throws it in my face. He still throws it in my face. We, we were trying to get rid of some of his thousand stuffed animals and we told him that there was a hospital in alaska full of children that needed toys and he packed him up and shipped him off to these sick kids that did not exist. And he's still angry about it. He was eight, he's 25 now and he's like you lied so I mean, so do you?

Speaker 1: 32:33

did you rewind the tape back to that moment when, uh, you were faced with whether or not to explain what a pimp was, and you said, all right, I'm just gonna go with?

Speaker 2: 32:42

the truth here and just see what happens.

Speaker 1: 32:46

We had to describe what a pimp who explained that. I thought it was hysterical.

Speaker 2: 32:52

I mean it was actually much easier the third time than it was the first two times. First of all, he was older, he's older. They were like eight and seven. I don't even know if they knew what sex was, but like, but like. I had to sort of tell them in a very roundabout way that you know, adults like to kiss and hug and touch each other and sometimes people who aren't married and don't have boyfriends or girlfriends will pay someone for that. I mean that's really what it is. There you go and then, and then this time I mean he does know it's. You know he's 10, so he didn't know what sex was.

Speaker 1: 33:37

So I just said similar to say by the way, everybody listening just wrote that down, just in case their kid asked them they will the first time was because of pimp my ride.

Speaker 2: 33:47

I was really bitter about that. Like what? Like? It's a great show, but do you have to use pimp like do you have to in the title?

Speaker 1: 33:56

it was such a good show such a good show.

Speaker 2: 33:59

Um, it was a great show and they loved. I mean. Think about, I mean wouldn't you want love your kid to watch a rapper? You know, upgrade cars and make them cool and and, yeah, yeah, pimp them out and like now you have to explain what that means.

Speaker 1: 34:15

Yeah, it was a shame.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Oh my god, yeah I don't lie to them. I know they'll find out if I do. At first I'm a terrible liar. Everyone catches me in a lie. I do not lie, I just learned. I always got caught. My mother caught me every dime. So around 14,.

Speaker 1: 34:32

I was like I'm done here, I'm just going to get in trouble for the truth from now on.

Speaker 1: 34:35

Lying is not worth it. Let me ask you this If you know that there was no way you could be the kind of parent that tells little white lies to your kids and Jessica be the kind of parent that, like, tells the little white lies to your kids, and you know, jessica just says it has as it is, were you ever? Was there ever a part of you when you're, when you're building your community and meeting people and talking to people and collaborating with people on a professional level? Was there ever a part of you that said I can't be that way? Or were you just always still bravely blunt?

Speaker 2: 35:09

I have ADHD too, so like. So I've learned a lot of things about myself, reflecting on college and high school like later.

Speaker 2: 35:18

I mean I had a lot of time to think. Right, I had Emily when I was 22 and Nate when I was 23. Right, so I was home a lot with no friends because they were all out doing other stuff. So like I was really young when I had my two kids and you know, and I was really caught up in that. And then when they got older and I wasn't like, I've spent a lot of the last couple years trying to learn about myself, because you just don't have time when you're younger. And so I can tell you that I have always been blunt. It has not always made me popular, um, it was really unappreciated until I was more of an adult as a kid I heard did you do stand-up comedy as part of this?

Speaker 1: 35:57

a little?

Speaker 2: 35:57

yeah, yeah, you did right when you had, I was 22 with a baby, so like I couldn't go to clubs at 11 and wait to do open mic, like I couldn't really. Yeah, it wasn't until later that I did stand up comedy and writing courses and stuff like that, but yeah, I mean, eventually I became the friend that people would look at to say what everyone else was thinking and like little things. That actually taught me that too. Like you know, I went to summer camp for like 10 years and you know, like I would say, five years ago we were all at a lunch and the waiter was being really personal, like he just, instead of writing down our food and leaving, he was like what are you guys doing?

Speaker 1: 36:42

What are you here from?

Speaker 2: 36:43

And they all started looking at me and I was like, thank you, okay, like we'd like water now, um, and he walks away. He walks away and half the table's like what the hell's wrong with you? And I was like what? And they're like we rely on you to get rid of people like that. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm sorry, I had no idea that they were like appreciate this part of me that everyone else seems to hate.

Speaker 1: 37:12

So we all do. I can tell you that much, jessica. We all love this, this element of you, this element of your energy. It's so awesome. I have two final questions, real quick, okay before. I let you go.

Speaker 2: 37:26

You don't have to let me go, but okay, you don't have to let me go but okay, that's fun.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Okay, so you talked about how people look at you to say something, to take charge and be that voice at that moment it's actually an accent who knew where I did. Back towards the beginning of the conversation, I looked at you as the person to help me figure out how to find my own voice and how to become a leader and grow. So when you think about how your kids are watching you and what your kids are seeing when they look at you as they see you be an advocate in this way for women's voices and all these things, how do you hope that influences, especially in particular, with respect to your sons? How do you hope that influences how they see women?

Speaker 2: 38:18

So I definitely know I was. I didn't know what you were going to ask, but I was thinking it definitely affected Emily because she did a lot of like, so she died in Christmas 2016. And that's right after you know who was elected president for the first time she had a lot to say about that.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Let me tell you she did so, like, so, like. I was actually quite proud at how angry and boisterous I mean truly, sometimes just downright inappropriate, but but I still I've never stopped her from being that way, because it's her voice, it's her way of expressing that and like, yeah, I mean actually it's kind of sad, jimmy, because my mom died when I was 30 and she was my other best bud, so like my mom died, my daughter died. Just I mean I'm just left with all these dum-dums in here I'm just kidding, they're lovely.

Speaker 1: 39:06

That's why you, when you call elsie or you call me, yeah, that's right?

Speaker 2: 39:10

no, I mean, I'm a sister, but she's across the country, um. So yeah, so like the sons. So there's definitely that whole you never hit a girl thing that the older one, um, learned the younger one. I've never had to tell that too, like you don't have to teach new gender.

Speaker 1: 39:29

I forget how old jordan is 11 or 12 okay, oh my god, he's like two years, almost 12.

Speaker 2: 39:34

I don't know if you've had to teach him that, but I've never had to teach isaac don't hit a girl, because you just don't hit people ever yeah, period your hands are kept to yourself at all times, so like there's some stuff about women that he will innately know, that that nate will have to be told, for example, also like you don't really. This is actually one good thing about having surprise children when you're young and then you try for one when you're old. It's like they're far enough apart where you can see how you parented differently. Like one time nate came into our bedroom and I forget what he was doing something and and scott goes, stop whining like a girl and I punch, like I just I didn't even, it wasn't even like.

Speaker 1: 40:14

I was just like what the hell?

Speaker 2: 40:15

did you just say. I was like do you really think that's appropriate? What does that tell him about women? And he was like, oh my God, you're right. Like he never thought of it, because that's just what we fucking put up with. Yeah, he's being told you run like a girl, you hit like a girl. So, like isaac will never hear hopefully, he will never hear that shit come out of someone's mouth an adult that he respects. Because we now realize mostly because of 2018 and me too movement, but you know also all the different ways our society has changed since my older two were born. Like we know better. You don't question it.

Speaker 2: 40:50

You know pimping and sex work is a perfect example, like one time I told elsie. I was like did you just tell? I was like I don't know. Like her youngest was one of her children, was trying to dress um provocatively. And I was like just tell her she's dressed like a hooker. She's like that won't do anything. We respect sex workers. Now I was like okay, I mean, I mean I can't say I disagree. It's empowering, right, it's a women's empowerment thing. I don't want to necessarily disparage sex, sex workers. That's just what I was told. You look like a hooker, you don't want to look right, but now I guess that's not a bad thing, because everybody's work is respectable.

Speaker 1: 41:32

Oh, we can't even say that you look, you're gonna end up on the pole like that. Because now pole dancing is a sport, because I think it's gonna be allowed in the olympics actually you would say you're gonna end up on the pole.

Speaker 2: 41:43

She's like will you get me one from amazon tomorrow? I'd like to start practicing. It means nothing and that's fine, I'm okay with that. I mean, I just took a minute to try and rephrase Right, like you know. But what I ended up telling her was I ended up, you know, and actually I met Meg shortly after this and I was like here's the deal. This is what I said because obviously I couldn't disparage sex workers. So I was like your mom is worried that you will be put in a situation where someone will be behaving inappropriately to you for your age, like she's 12.

Speaker 2: 42:16

I said you look 16 but you don't want people to treat you like you're 16 or 18, because it's not appropriate and it will traumatize you that's it very well put, very well put.

Speaker 2: 42:27

Yeah, communication major thank you so much, but yeah, so, so, yeah, I mean, like the crowd goes wild, yeah, yeah, but also, jimmy, it's, it's actually more important to me that my husband treat me a certain way. He treats me as an equal. He takes care of the food, he's a better, cleaner than me, um, but we take, you know, we take turns doing everything. He's a full, equal partner, um, and that is really what I wanted to see. That's really why I divorced nate and emily's dad is because I didn't. They were one and two, but I didn't want him to see that's how you treat women and I didn't want her to see that's how she should be treated. And I may or may not have been successful because they still had, you know, he still had custody. So there is still some massage, some influence.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Yeah, probably grew out of it too. You know, we were both really young. He was like 29, but like you know, and he's 50 something now, I don't know. But you know he's remarried and all the things. So I'm sure he's learned his lessons. But like I wanted them to see what a proper relationship looks like. And I will tell you my older son, he's 25. He's had two relationships and both of them have been for two years or longer. So he's respectful, he's thoughtful, he's goofy, but they're good men. I married a good man and I'm growing two good men, and so are you. You will never have to Thank you, you will probably.

Speaker 2: 43:47

I mean, it's hard when you're a single mom because you worry like what kind of? You don't just worry, I mean just from being a single mom. I don't want to speak for you. I worried about being so busy taking care of things. I didn't spend enough time with them.

Speaker 1: 44:02

That's the first thing, and then the second thing oh my god, that that defined like the first 10 years of his life. Yeah, you're probably still on that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 44:10

I love that. And then the other half of it is like if I remain single, how will they ever know what love looks like? How will I ever?

Speaker 1: 44:17

know what love looks like.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Do I get to know what love looks like? I hope so, because this is bullshit, exactly Right. And I know you struggled with that one yourself because I stopped you through it and you were just like I don't know. And I actually because I'm my memory is like iffy, like I don't remember if it was strictly dating apps or just different relationships that you were like becoming, but I could tell you were becoming like like what's the word now I can't think jaded, almost just like hope, like hopeless, like I'm just gonna give up. You're just like you know what. I'm just giving hope and I thought maybe that's safest for now, because this sucks, because I didn't want to settle.

Speaker 2: 44:54

I didn't want to settle, and why should you?

Speaker 1: 44:56

You shouldn't. I was not going to settle for someone who wasn't going to be the role, like a good role model A good man.

Speaker 2: 45:02

You need a good man Period.

Speaker 1: 45:05

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 45:06

Although if you count the entire United States population, probably they are rare because you know, there's people out there that are so crazy.

Speaker 1: 45:16

But unfortunately that's true, according especially to my dating roster.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Same with me girl. I did internet dating in 2001. Oh my God.

Speaker 1: 45:29

You don't even know Married dudes. Dude, it was a wide field, a total wide field. I could write a whole book. So okay, so as you talk I mean we've talked about first of all I already know the name of the one of the name of this episode is going to be at least my ride enough, I will. So it's gonna be pimping ain't easy, it's going to be.

Speaker 2: 45:49

Pimpin' Ain't Easy. Yes, oh my God, I love that so much. It's so funny. Oh my God, do you want to hear something funny? At the award, my two college friends this just reminded me. You might want to edit it out, I don't know but at the award, my two college friends, missy and Amy, were there to help. Like they came early to up to what and they were getting, you know, they were getting kind of tired of like the like you can do it, music, so that. So for the podcasting dynamic duo, their own award, by the way that they won. They wanted us to play walk and I was like you know what? I'm going to do it just for you guys. And they were so excited they're like who's gonna? I can't wait to see who's gonna walk up for that, having no idea it would be themselves that it was.

Speaker 1: 46:39

Oh my god, that's just they did it to themselves.

Speaker 2: 46:44

That's hilarious. It ain't easy. That's exactly. I love it. Please name it.

Speaker 1: 46:47

That it's hilarious, I love it so I think what we, what what my listeners are going to realize from this conversation is a little bit about leadership, a little bit about building community, a little bit about the importance of empowering women's voices. I mean a little, a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2: 47:05

You covered a lot. That's a good interview, I have to say a little bit about mental health.

Speaker 1: 47:09

A that's a good interview.

Speaker 2: 47:09

I have to say a little bit about mental health, a little bit about, you know, parenting late you did, you covered the gamut. I'm telling you you deserve that award again.

Speaker 1: 47:22

You're a great podcaster, fully. Thank you, thank you. So in episode five of the show, I was speaking with a woman named Rebecca Caffiero, and something she said really struck me. I want to ask you about it real quick. She was talking about the difference between your zone of excellence and your zone of genius.

Speaker 1: 47:38

Your zone of excellence being what you're good at, Like I'm yeah, I'm good at a certain list of things, and your zone of genius, what you actually live for. So I think we've talked a whole lot about what you're good at. I mean, I can see the praises of you as as all the things all the time, but what is your zone of genius? What do you live for? Comedy?

Speaker 2: 48:02

Yeah, my zone of genius is being funny, like it or not. And um and I. It's funny that you differentiated that, because towards the end of emily's life, all I wanted her to do was find one of those. In fact, I didn't even want her to find one of those, I wanted her to admit one of those because you already know, if you are listening mental health or not, a addict or not you know what shit you're good at. That's easy, and that is the thing that you don't respect about yourself. That's the zone of genius, right? I'm funny. Therefore, it can't possibly be a career, because it's easy for me and for her it was all genius.

Speaker 2: 48:42

She could draw first grade. She comes over. Her first art class was like she's trying to tell me how to draw. I already know how to draw everything. She was six. I was like why don't you teach her? Then, honey, go ahead. So that was her zone of genius. Therefore, it was boring. You know it's boring. So then your zone of excellence is the thing that you, a skill that you've honed, for better or for worse, and for me that is for better or for worse, and for me that is gosh. That is really hard to verbalize. I am a tech.

Speaker 1: 49:21

I'm a tech, I'm the every man's tech expert. Okay, so like if you want to know how to figure out.

Speaker 2: 49:24

But I've already figured out a lot of it too. So I don't mean, like, why isn't my printer working? I mean like I can you know? If you want to set up an online business and sell stuff, I know how to do that. If you want to start a podcast, I know how to do that. If you want to know which AI is going to make you a whole creative plan, from start to finish, including the social media, I can tell you who does that. I can tell you who will get you leads for sales. I can tell you who will plan your vacations for you. I can tell you all about.

Speaker 2: 49:53

I just am constantly dabbling in tech and, like also, I worked for a really long time. That's how I met Elsie in. That first online group was called RHHB school by Marie Forleo. It was rich, happy and hot B school and those women were all starting like they were coaches and and um life. You know helpers and authentic. You know authenticity experts and stuff. They didn't have a clue how to build a website. So I got busy. I knew how to do every tech thing we were learning how to do in that group and I was just constantly in the Facebook group being like no, what you need is this. No, what you need is this I'll help you with it, I'll help you with it. I'll help you with it. That's my zone of excellence, I think, is explaining tech to people who find it too overwhelming and confusing, and then fixing the shit so it's easier, you know creating systems, solutions Butterfly.

Speaker 2: 50:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:53

I call it internet batgirl. But yeah, but yeah, of course yours would sound way more badass than what I know.

Speaker 2: 50:56

Well, my husband's into batman, you know he's thinking he's got the bat tool belt and stuff. So that's me. It's amazing. So like, yeah, my job of genius is being funny. I am still. I'm at the precipice of figuring out how that's gonna serve me. I'm trying to do it more. I was a little disappointed.

Speaker 1: 51:10

I didn't see you at the precipice of figuring out how that's going to serve me. I'm trying to do it more. I was a little disappointed I didn't see you at the on stage for the open mic at podfest.

Speaker 2: 51:14

I didn't know there was one Disappointed, but my kids, I know.

Speaker 1: 51:16

So now you need to make sure that you're on that stage.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Yeah, Every every um like the second. The event was over Scott and and stuff, so that's why I didn't. I couldn't participate in podcast this year, um cause I wanted them to come to. I wanted him to see universal for the first time and he loved it.

Speaker 1: 51:39

Sure, I really wish he would have met Jordan. I should have taken your kid with me. I love the photo you set up. That was it.

Speaker 2: 51:43

That was at the medieval feast and where were you guys when you saw that picture? It's just called pirates dinner or something like pirates dinner in Orlando, I don't know. But basically, if you've ever been to medieval times, it's very similar but it's pirates. So you get an eye patch and a bandana and then you sit while while you cheer on pirates who are like fighting each other in a in a boat over a princess. Yeah, it was it was pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 52:04

I mean, we really. He really wanted to go to the titanic museum but it was sold out. That was his idea of a good time is watching people die in Titanic over and over and over again. So bizarre. But apparently that's a thing, jenny. I've looked it up and there are actually birthday party decorations for Titanic, which is so weird. What? Yes, I know Plates and stuff with the big bonus on it?

Speaker 1: 52:26

Let me guess on Amazon. It's found on Amazon.

Speaker 2: 52:29

I mean honestly, but like what if your kids in World War II you just have like a Holocaust birthday party, like that's basically what this is? Thousands of people died. It makes no sense to me. Hindenburg yay, so bizarre Happy birthday.

Speaker 1: 52:46

Happy birthday, hindenburg. Happy birthday. Watch the people drown. Oh my god, jessicaica, I can talk to you forever. Jeez, louise, I know, sorry, sorry if people want, no, no, if you want to get in touch with you for to experience your zone of excellence and the tech butterfly stuff or badass batman thing that you just said, um, or, and get a side of your zone of genius, a side of comedy at the same time, how do they connect with you? How do they find, follow and support you, jessica?

Speaker 2: 53:13

I mean right now the only things I have live are ShePodcastcom, but I am working on JessicaKupfermancom, so check back on that and see if there's anything happening there, because I'm trying to update it as soon as I can. I'm going to start being more visible on TikTok and maybe start telling funny stories just as a way to to like work my comedy muscle a little bit.

Speaker 1: 53:36

You know what Comedy and and and and tragedy are two sides of the same coin. Oh, my God, yes, and you've known both and I think that you can. You can absolutely shine and bring a whole nother level of of comfort and community to to people by doing so. I can't wait to see what what the future brings. And thank you again for your time today and for being part of our advisory board.

Speaker 2: 54:01

So excited to have you. We didn't even talk about your, your network, but I'm so excited for you, I'm honored that I am even in the smallest way, way, a glimmer of idea for you to create it. So thank you so much. That really means a lot to me. And you are still a hustling fool. I love it. Nothing has changed. I mean, at least someone saw you for that. I love that you're like. You finally saw me for being the hustling fool that I am. It's true, it's true, we did, and I and yeah, I'm glad you take that with you because at the time it was really important for me and Elsie to to recognize you for that.

Speaker 2: 54:36

You've seen some very hardworking and a little unappreciated.

Speaker 1: 54:39

So it meant so much to me, so much to me. So thank you for continuing to allow people to be seen, jessica.

Speaker 2: 54:45

Thanks for being here,