How to Write a Book from A-Z

Men and Emotions... It's a Thing by Laura Jones Swann

• Lisa Greinert • Season 1 • Episode 10

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"The first time I was incarcerated I was 14 years old; the real man rules were magnified. I had to up my game if I wanted to be a real man, my life depended on it. I was sucked deeper into the world of better cars, more money, more women, more drugs, and no emotions. For the next 19 years, I was arrested over 37 times, in and out of jail, and had attempted suicide a number of times. Life was spinning out of control."

Getting in touch with my emotions was foreign to me; I really did not even know what that meant."

One of the many stories you will find in this Amazon book by Laura Jones Swann: Men and Emotions...It's a Thing.
Amazon.com: Men and Emotions ... It's a Thing: 9798989646807: Jones Swann, Laura: Books

Hi everyone, this is Lisa Greinert, your host for How to Write a Book from A to Z, and today we have Laura Jones Swan, is going to talk about something that I think we've all dealt with at some time or another, the question of how to deal with emotions. Her book is focused on men. However, it's for any of us who have struggled with learning how to appropriately talk about emotions. Laura has 35 years of experience in the counseling field as well as in her academic career. So needless to say, she has worked with many men. I do want to let you know before you listen that this episode focuses a little bit more on the content of the book because I have always been fascinated with behavior and the fact that she has spent so much time counseling men and learning about why men have such difficulty with emotions that I thought you might enjoy listening to an expert. about the importance of learning ways to deal with our Emotions no matter who we are. So without further ado, I would like to introduce a friend of mine, Laura Jones Swan.

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Thank you, Lisa. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

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The cool part about this interview is that Laura and I actually started this journey together. She's gotten a little further than I have because she actually has published her book while I'm still dealing with several hundred pieces of paper that I'm trying to turn into some sense. I'm really proud of her because I know how hard this really is.

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So we are just going to start with how Laura even decided to write a book about men. It's always struggling, but

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of all, Lisa, I don't know how bad you are struggling, but

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either and I didn't set

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I, I struggled as well. I mean, I have not written a book and that is not my forte either. And I didn't set out planning to write a book, but I did have a very strong passion to help men understand more about their emotions I, I do a men's group and I love working with the men and watching them connect in ways that they normally don't connect. They're authentic. They're real. They share things that need to be talked about. And As I watched that happen, I just, I loved that process. And I thought, golly, how can other men hear about

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about

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this process of dealing with emotions? And so they're, that kind of birthed the book. So

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tell us about your background. My background.

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So I am a counselor and I've done a lot of different things.

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things.

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Have a private practice. For, oh gosh, 17 years I taught at Texas Tech in Lubbock. And then for the last 20 years I have taught at the University of Texas at Austin, Steve Hicks School of Social Work, as well as the Seminary of the Southwest, a small Episcopal school that has a Masters in Counseling, an LPC program. So I've done a lot of teaching over the years, and have worked in treatment.

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in treatment for substance use dependents, have run groups.

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I've done a lot of different things in the field. What made

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field. What made you decide that your book was going to

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be about men? I think watching the men in the group they inspired me. And they helped me see the need. for providing some type of platform for men to be able to have that space to talk about emotions. I don't know if it's true across the board or it's in the literature, but what I have seen from my experience, men struggle reaching out to other men to build these relationships. that are meaningful and authentic. If they're not around a sporting event or a car or something that they have in common, which are all great things,

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things

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men won't just call another man and say something. I'm really having a difficult time with something. Can we go have a coffee or go for a walk? So that's what this men

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that's

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really what I wanted to create. And in the stories that the men have written, that's what I hope is captured. So

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captured. So I, I appreciate everything you just said, and I'm just kind of thinking through, you know, men and the men I've known and friends husbands, and it amazes me how many men, great men, have difficulties forming close relationships with other men.

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relationships. Absolutely, Lisa. It is absolutely a thing.

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is a

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It is a thing. They struggle. And it's funny. Two weeks ago I was in men's group and we're taking the summer off because a lot of people are traveling and we were talking about just kind of options to stay connected and I remember they were talking about some different things and I looked at all of them and I said, why don't you guys reach out to each other more? I just don't understand that. And especially this group, this group has been together for three years. And they still, I mean they do reach out some, but I think it's really difficult. I think it's programmed in our society, I think it's the way our culture is, that men are not supposed to do that. And I agree 100%, but

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weakness. How, and I agree 100%, but it's like how did men, and it's not just

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generational,

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this generation, I mean this is generational, that men, it's like I feel like it's getting better maybe?

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agree. But, it's, it's heartbreaking

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it's, it's heartbreaking almost to watch these men out of

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fear

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Fear, I mean, is it fear of rejection? Is it fear of not being liked? But it's a massive amount of men that sit at home

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like we do.

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and don't call a buddy, hey, you know, like we do. Let's go for a walk. Let's go have coffee. Let's go, you know, we, we were always, women are social and, and I think we're blessed in that we can, we're open to each other. Whereas men, I just feel like it's like they've, they just, they want it but are scared of it. Yeah, I think

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think it's probably, I, I agree with you and I think it's a little more than scared or in addition to that, I think that it's really a societal norm, it if you look at our generations in the past, you know, it has just the generation. have promoted that over years and years. And part of that, I think there's a real healthy balance in one of the writings a gentleman named Pete talks about that at the end of his writing where somewhere in needing to be strong and take care of things and doing some of these manly things that he describes, there's some tenderness as well and there's this beautiful balance in that And I think that society doesn't allow the tenderness part very well. They allow this, you know, suck it up and pull your bootstraps up and get tough. They allow that and almost some expect that. But they don't allow this other part of being tender and gentle and needing it. Something needing help.

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needing support. That vulnerable. Yeah. don't want to be vulnerable, it seems like. Yeah,

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Vulnerability. Vulnerability's hard.

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It is

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It is not an easy get

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real with someone. It is not an easy thing to do.

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vulnerable. Do one. Acknowledge. I think for men it's more difficult'cause of this.

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difficult because of

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And because of our culture and because of past,

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because

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you know, experiences.

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Okay.

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So let's talk about the book, the way that you have it divided. I think that you've done a very interesting job with this. Share how and why you decided to set it up the way that you did.

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the first half is informational. And it just gives a lot of information. Everything from how this project came to be, to how do you become more aware of your emotions. And then the second part of the book I invited a lot of men to write about their emotional journey. The writing prompt I provided was what I have learned about emotion over the years. And I had 29 men that wrote for the book and submitted a writing. And all of those writings, I kept very I didn't go in and change much in the, you know, a few little grammatical things or sentence structure things, but I really didn't change anything. I just let those writings be exactly the words that they shared. So there's 29 in there and they all share about their emotional journey. So,

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So the beginning of it is kind of strategies. to help you if you are struggling with your emotions, how you can deal with it, correct?

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Yes, it's just information about when people say, well what does she mean by getting connected to your emotions or understanding your emotions? It has that information in there, like why do we have emotions? What is the purpose of emotions? You know strategies to help us manage our emotions, what it looks like to have healthy emotional regulation. So, just

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Would you suggest I start with the stories or I start with the strategies? Out of curiosity.

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question. I've had a number of people tell me that they have kind of bounced around. And I think that's kind of interesting. They're curious about their stories. They're curious what men would write about emotions. And so I've had a number of people tell me they've started in that area. I think it really just depends on what that person is looking for. If they're looking more for, I want to learn how to become attuned, understand my emotions. And then the front of the book it's outlined in a form of providing information.

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That's great. And, and I agree. I think it's, it's great information. What I, what I love about the second piece too, that if somebody wanted to start with that, is the fact that I think that there's so many stories that a man can relate to.

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many stories

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In this, because really kind of all get down to the same thing, and that's that deep concern of men not even knowing how to deal with those emotions.

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those emotions. Yes, yeah, I absolutely agree.

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So I think men would be looking at this going, oh I, yep, that's me, mm hmm, chat, yep, yeah, let's see Doug's me. Let's see, who else is me. L. B.'s me. You know, I think that that is also helpful too because I wonder sometimes if they just think they're the only ones going through this When in reality they're kind of all going through the same thing

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Yeah, I think that that very much exists, and I know that I see that in the men's group. when men start talking about this stuff, there is a bit of that, you know, Oh, he experienced that? Oh, he's struggling with that? Oh, and I cannot tell you how many times in men's groups somebody will begin sharing something and another man pipes in and says something like, golly, I'm experiencing that right now, or I just, you know, three years ago. So I do think that there's something about And I know this is really solid in the research, too, but there's something about not going through something alone that is so comforting. Trying to deal with something alone and thinking that you're the only one, or that you don't have any other choice. I agree 100 percent with you. And

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thing. I 100 percent agree. And I think what's nice too about what you're saying is the fact that even if you're not comfortable talking with people yet. This, for them, you know, they're, they're kind of letters, like one of them did it as a letter to himself, which I thought was beautiful. But it's, it's, it's a, it's a therapy for themselves. Even if they're not having a conversation, it's probably so healthy for them to sit down for the first time in their lives and answer this question that you ask them, because they probably don't think a whole lot about. Most of them are just stoic, and they've learned to get over it and move on, but we all know it never goes away. It's still stuck down, deep down hanging

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difficult experiences, trauma major events in our lives that created a lot of emotions during that time that we've never dealt with. What you're saying around that is If we don't deal with it, it doesn't go anywhere. It's not like it disappears. It just begins to accumulate. It's stockpiled.

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it's interesting because I think I love your foreword by Martin Lemon. He mentions a veneer.

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I think

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And I think that that, that we kind of all have that, but men for sure. You, when I talk about a veneer, when I look at you, I see a very put together woman who looks like she probably had just this wonderful, easy life, right? But you haven't.

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to talk a

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And I want to talk a little bit about, because it also leads to the fact that it's about the fact that you were able to write a book, but you had a disability when you were growing up.

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I did, And I still do. Right.

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it didn't go away.

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Yeah. No, I'm I am dyslexic and For, oh gosh, 30 years, I didn't have a label for that or I didn't have a title or an explanation for that. I struggled in school a lot. And I learned ways to get through. I was pushed to the next grade. It was amazing that I got through college. I found out that I was deaf. I was dyslexic in my early thirties and it changed, it was a game changer for me and it made me very aware of the strategies that I had created myself or you know, ways that I figured out how to deal with it and get, get through, get by.

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with it and get, get through, get by. That's a very interesting question

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struggles. How important was it to you in this book to also share struggles? I'm asking all of these men to share some very vulnerable and challenging things about their journey with

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emotions, yet

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I'm not sharing anything about myself. And I remember thinking that and I thought well that's probably okay. I don't need to do that. And then it just haunted me and a couple weeks later I just had that very strong feeling that You know, I needed to do that. And for whatever reason, I listened to that and shared a snippet of my story in terms of how I never got connected. It wasn't like I got disconnected. I just never was connected to my emotions from the time I would, you know, from birth to 28 years old. At 28, I had an awakening and realized that It's just how out of touch I was with my. It's a book

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my emotions. Wow. for sharing that. And I think it means something when you're writing a book. when you also show your own vulnerability. That, you know, yes, it's men that are having these issues, but we all have to learn how to deal with emotions. I don't know if any of us truly are healthy enough to even know what it means to really be appropriate with our emotions and the craziness that they sometimes lead us through. Especially when we're, we're in an argument. Because they really like to really come out really strong then.

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I think that's a really good point you bring up, Lisa, because I think we all struggle with it. Like you said, there's, I don't think it's necessarily easier for women. I think the part that is very different is that women have much more permission to do that. And they have more platforms to do that. and it's not frowned upon, and if a woman shares a tear or needs to call a friend that's approved. If a man shares the tear or calls a friend in need, it can be frowned upon and seen as weak. So, in the very first chapter of the book, the introduction, I talk about this kind of informal survey that I did and it It was 423 people that I asked, what's the first thing that comes to your mind when I say men and emotions? I was just really surprised at how many people over 80 something percent shared something pretty negative about that men and emotion prompt. And there was just a small percentage that shared. something that was you know, less challenging So, I think that says a lot about our society and the impact that our society has on it. I like at one point

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men I, I 100 percent agree. And I like, at one point in the book, you, you have an analogy about a bus and, and,

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internal

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And you talk about emotions are our internal GPS. So, tell us a little about, I like the bus of life analogy.

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I started using that bus of life a long time ago I, I, I think I saw you a little while ago. I think when I was teaching at Texas Tech and doing some counseling there the analogy just as we all have this bus of life and we like to feel like we are in the driver's seat. And not necessarily always in control, but in the driver's seat and

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we're going

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where we're going and what we're doing and it's our job. to decide who gets on that bus and who gets off, how long they stay, where they sit. And a lot of times things get on our bus that we don't necessarily like. You know, they might be negative emotions about ourself or negative self talk or depression or substance use dependence or anything can get on our bus. And sometimes it can hijack the bus the bus and the next thing we know our substance use is driving the bus or our emotions are driving the bus. And so I use that in yes, our anger is driving the bus. And I use that analogy when I talk a lot about emotion regulation, how do we manage who and what gets on our bus and how do we kick them off. What does that look like? Yeah. I

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I love that. Like, I could just visually see me kicking my anger off the bus,

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Well, and it's interesting because, you know, it's important to manage who and what gets off the bus, but we also have to figure out when it's the right time to deal with that anger. We don't want to kick it off and not deal with it at all, but we don't want it driving the bus. So that's the, that's part of the balance, is learning those safe places you know, when to be vulnerable, you When to talk about our feelings. It is a tricky thing. It can be a tricky thing sometimes.

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Absolutely. Okay, what would you say was the most difficult thing about writing the book?

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thing the book? The actual writing part, or the, because the most difficult thing for me was the publishing part. Yes, absolutely. Putting it together and, oh goodness, that was hard. That's definitely not my forte. Writing the book really wasn't that difficult. This, because this is what I've done for 38 years. I just, I've done this for a long time and I see patterns and I see certain things that probably what was difficult about that is taking that from my head and putting it down on paper the way that I wanted it to sound. And it never ever, it never really sounded as well as I thought it did in my head. I

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my head. I think that's how we are. I think that's you saying it. Being hard on ourselves like we are.

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see. Were

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Okay, you already knew what you wanted to say, and that's very helpful I do know that you did have one issue that was pretty big that I think we need to make sure that our listeners hear about. And it was the fact that you got scammed. Do you want to tell our audience what happened? Because I think that's important for them to hear.

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important for them to hear. Yeah, sure. As I researched and looked at different publishing companies look at Amazon where I was going to publish this. There are a lot of companies out there that look really good. And I talked to a lot of different people. And one I actually signed up with and signed a contract and they turned out to be a complete scam. And luckily I got my money back I think you just have to be careful. And what I would recommend now that I've had that experience, what I would recommend is make sure that you bounce that off of several people. Talk to several people. If you're not super familiar with how to look up Recommendations and reviews and those type of things maybe ask somebody to help you do that because there are a lot of So,

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Yes going through that with you, I was like, you know, it could have been me. Easily. It looked like Amazon. It wasn't Amazon, obviously it was someone else pretending to be Amazon. Thank you for sharing. That's definitely something as writers that everybody needs to be aware of. All right so what else would you like, as a writer, now that you are a published writer, is there anything that you feel people need to know about the writing process,

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the

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Was it easier, harder, what would you say,

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whole process? I would say that, the content was based on so much experience. And, I mean, I did some research around society and, social norms, and I read a lot about men and emotions. But, I think probably for someone, I'm trying to think of other books, like, I, when I was writing this book, I couldn't imagine trying to put together, a novel that's not who I am. I don't think I, I could do that. But I have a lot of favorite writers, and a lot of people who write beautifully. I don't think that's what I was called to do, and I don't, I think that would be very difficult to do that. With this, I just had all that knowledge. So, I felt like it was just kind of in my wheelhouse for sure.

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wheelhouse for sure. And for you, it was about the fact that this is your field and it was important for you to make it readable and understandable and relatable to people going through trying to deal with emotions.

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Right, well, and I think one of my biggest goals was I wanted to put something out there where people just started talking about that and whether it was something as simple as, Oh, do you see that book about men and emotions? That's kind of interesting. Or that's, I can't believe 29 men wrote for that. Or, just even that dialogue, beginning to talk about that stuff begins to push back on some of the stereotypes and the culture pieces that are out there. So, that was a big goal of mine, is I really want to just open that door a little bit and add to the contributions that are already being made. Yes

and, speaking of stereotypes, how about instead of buying the stereotypical tool for Father's Day, which is coming up very soon, why not buy them this book? So where could they buy the book?

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Where can they buy your book? Amazon. com. And if you, either search by my name, Laura Jones Swan, or by the title, Men and Emotion, It's a Thing, both of those will pull it up. Great.

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Great.

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Well,

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Great. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience

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think there is one thing. You said, you used the word just a minute ago, relational. And one of the things, it's a theme throughout the book. You will see it in many, many of the writings. and I share some little stories as well in part one. But men talk about, once they have become more aware of their emotions, and once they learn how to deal with that and understand and listen to them, that's a big thing is just listening to their emotions that, relationally, their life has improved a ton. Their relationships with their kids, their relationship with their spouse at work, at play, learning to deal with emotions enhances all of those relationships. And so I think that that's a really important thing is that one of the reasons that, we're doing this is because it does enhance our relationships, which we are relational beings. I'm going to

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Thank you for sharing that. I am looking through the book because I, dog eared, which I know we're not supposed to do, but I do

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28. Was it 28? No, it

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it was this. It was, it was, it was actually under sitting with difficult emotions. And it talks about, we shift our focus from the external world and all its distractions to our internal world. And it ha, it's a conversation between the therapist and the client. Therapist is like, great work identifying and discussing your feelings today. Client says Well, now what am I supposed to do with these feelings now that I'm aware of them? And the therapist just says, Just sit with them for small moments of time. The client's like, what does that mean? And the therapist says, just accept it. Be curious about the information that they have. Try not to push them away. Notice them without judgment. Maybe consider talking to someone about it. And the client says, that sounds horrible. I love that. That sounds horrible, but it does for people that don't know. Even what emotions are, so how in the world are you supposed to talk about it, too? Yes,

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Yes, that's so true and I can't tell you how many, in some form or fashion, how many clients over the years have had that dialogue. Yes, that dialogue about the difficulty. And myself as well. I mean, I just remember when I first started therapy when I was 28 years old. I, it was a challenge. I had no idea what emotions were. I didn't know how to identify them. I didn't know what to do with them. I didn't know that they had a purpose. I was pretty lost in that arena. I So I had a lot to learn, a lot of catching up to do. And

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And the fact that you actually turned your career into helping others do the same thing is pretty fabulous.

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Yeah, I mean, I went back to school and got my counseling license and yeah. Changed careers because of that. It was, it has really, and I talk about that in the book, it has changed my life. I mean, be being more emotionally involved. to what's happening it, it has improved my relationships with my kids and my husband and at work and I feel like I'm much better leader at work. And some of the positions I've had over the years as director of this or that I've had to learn how to be very relational in a healthy way. It's helped me tremendously and it is one of the reasons I'm very passionate about wanting to share So, I

So before we go, is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience? I'd like to leave the audience with a bit of a challenge, and that challenge is begin talking about men and emotions and make it more of a normal conversation and do it from a strength based place, meaning not from a place of men have issues, men can't do that. But more from a place of it's nice that men have more opportunities to do that. It's nice that men can now be very strong and vulnerable at the same time. And then I'd like to close with a little I'm going to paraphrase something that one of the Man shared in the book that I think sums up exactly what I am asking you to do. And that is men and emotions were typically two concepts very much at odds with one another. I grew up in a culture that taught real men to detach from their emotions. But then I think of how grateful I am for the progress I've made to leave that mindset. And now more often, Acknowledge, accept, and appreciate my emotions and what they can teach me about myself and the way I relate to the world around me. I think, I hope more men can learn to embrace their emotions as a gift and a source of strength and growth. I think that's a beautiful piece to close with, and it just demonstrates so much of what we've been talking about throughout this podcast.

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I like it. It's such a stigma.

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it is, and depending on your culture and where you're from, I mean, my husband is from West Texas, and that culture, he's fifth generation West Texan, and that culture was,

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Texan, and

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well, they had to really pull their bootstraps up. There were many times that. And it the environment required them to do that. And so many of those messages have been handed down. And they have been programmed. And it's just, yes, they very much have been programmed because one generation, two, three, four generations before that had to do that for survival. and didn't really have a choice, you know, had to shut down emotions and didn't have a lot of room or space. That has changed and there's more opportunity for men to be in tune with their emotions.

And it's baby steps, right? I mean, it takes a long time to change and to even recognize what an emotion is. So, I think that's also important for anyone looking at your book, is give yourself grace and take time. To take care of yourself. I hope that our audience has learned some things about how to pick up that big chief tablet and start writing again and also how to deal with emotions Not just for men. It's for women too.

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having me, Lisa. I really appreciate

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Thank you.