Lose The Mum Pooch - Fitness Workouts for Mums (shorter edit for mums on the go)
[00:00:17] Amy Squires: Welcome back to the Holistic Health Show. I'm very happy that you are joining us today we have Leslie Santos on the show. Leslie's a personal trainer. Welcome to the show, Leslie.
[00:00:29] Leslie Santoz: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:31] Amy Squires: I'm really excited. Leslie, , you're a personal trainer, but more recently you've had a gorgeous daughter and now you're leaning towards postpartum fitness and helping moms get their body and their health back. Absolutely. Yes. I would love for you to jump right in and tell us all about what you do.
[00:00:49] Leslie Santoz: Absolutely! So like you said, personal trainer. So that's how I started out, I was always into fitness, especially living away from family. It kept me sane and helped me with mental health and just overall made me happy. So with a few years of doing that and training women as well, I became pregnant. The whole pregnancy journey, I did not really love because I couldn't train like I did before. I was so exhausted all the time. I knew a pelvic floor physiotherapist. I worked with her at a clinical athletic center and she told me, [00:01:30] if you cannot get your exercise in, keep doing core work.
[00:01:34] Leslie Santoz: And so, I focused on that core work.
[00:01:38] Amy Squires: I'm interested, actually, that you mention this, so, when I think pregnancy, I always thought you couldn't really do a lot of core work when you're pregnant because you've got a baby in there. So expand on that a little.
[00:01:49] Leslie Santoz: Absolutely. We don't really do ab work.
[00:01:53] Amy Squires: Okay.
[00:01:54] Leslie Santoz: So doing abdominal exercises can be a little bit different than actually just bracing your core.
[00:02:01] Leslie Santoz: So of course, when you become pregnant, your abs separate. And so your abs will separate, separate, and they get very, very weak. So of course you can't do flexion in the body, you know, because it's bad for the fetus, it's just really bad on your pelvic floor and so doing core work, even leaning back and just bracing your core, kind of just doing that little cough, that's just core bracing. Side planks, just holding, kind of engaging that core in kind of anything you do.
[00:02:35] Amy Squires: So just getting that activation, I guess, is it?
[00:02:38] Leslie Santoz: Yes. Yeah. Even when you're standing, just kind of like leaning back a little bit. So that's what my physiotherapist told me. I was constantly aware of engaging my core the whole time. I ended up having an emergency C section three weeks before she was due.
[00:02:56] Leslie Santoz: Was not prepared for that at all. I understand the [00:03:00] process, but what does that mean afterwards, like postpartum for me? They told me, well, it's a, it's a longer recovery.
[00:03:07] Leslie Santoz: You know, of course, see a pelvic floor physiotherapist. So my mind was completely flooded. I was not prepared for this at all. They say anywhere between three to eight weeks to even get like ready for exercise. But even just core work again I didn't start mine until six weeks.
[00:03:25] Leslie Santoz: I had to relearn how to use everything down there. Even just to pee. I would meditate and , really just like breathe. And that's how I began diaphragm breathing and just kind of breathing from the belly you know, expanding the belly instead of your chest.
[00:03:43] Leslie Santoz: And that is just, slowly activating the core in and out, in and out. I went to the pelvic floor physiotherapist. Luckily I did not have, my abs did not separate too much because of the core engagement she told me focus on things like everybody always hear Kegels, Kegels, Kegels. It's not necessarily Kegels. You know, when somebody describes, oh, okay, hold your pee.
[00:04:10] Leslie Santoz: It's so much more than that. There are four or five steps to get to that point, I took my time. I was not actually ready to work out until I was definitely at the 10 week mark.
[00:04:22] Leslie Santoz: I found it very difficult for. The first two weeks I even had my husband had to hold my hand as I sat down [00:04:30] on the toilet. Like it really took a toll.
[00:04:33] Amy Squires: I know you said, say it takes 10 weeks for you to work out and everyone's different, I'm just trying to put a timeline here. So your husband's helping you go to the bathroom and, , helping you kind of get around for two weeks. So week three, are you walking any length of a distance or are you still doing, nothing? And then what does 10 week workout look like? Does that mean, okay, now I'm ready to do weights again or now I'm ready to walk,
[00:04:57] Leslie Santoz: Those are great questions. Two hours after my major abdominal surgery anybody within Canada. of my knowledge anyway they are kind of forced to get up and walk. So I probably walked about 40 meters in an hour. It was very, very slow. I had to do that three to five times a day.
[00:05:21] Leslie Santoz: It was very uncomfortable. Yeah if I had my time back, I definitely would have researched c section stuff. I just, it just never occurred to me. But, I also learned so much about myself.
[00:05:35] Leslie Santoz: It just really helped empower me, made me really believe in myself, made me love my body for what it could do. And so I just feel so much more mentally And a lot of women struggle with that because you don't get the birth experience that you expected. So for the first two weeks, I was pretty much helpless, and I was breastfeeding at the time. So I was learning that as well. So,
[00:05:58] Leslie Santoz: I would bond with her as much [00:06:00] as possible and then just. Rest, rest, rest. So it was straight from in the two weeks, the walking, walking, walking, but rest. So walking for about 20 minutes, resting for an hour, walking 20 minutes, resting for an hour. And it wiped me out.
[00:06:14] Leslie Santoz: The breastfeeding, I feel, definitely helped because something else that I learned is that your uterus is slowly contracting back down to its size every time that you breastfeed.
[00:06:26] Leslie Santoz: It releases hormones. And it helps your body heal. So the organs and stuff are slowly kind of just shifting down.
[00:06:32] Leslie Santoz: And of course, I had a midwife and she. did massaging and it was not the good massage.
[00:06:38] Amy Squires: No, I bet.
[00:06:39] Leslie Santoz: Yeah. But it, you know, that really, really helped. And of course, you know, they say that also helps with the weight loss of the baby. But yeah, at that three to five week mark. Still a lot of walking and I was stretching just kind of doing like mobility stuff, anything and everything and then it was probably that six to eight week mark.
[00:07:02] Leslie Santoz: I would put baby sensory videos from YouTube on because my daughter seemed very stimulated by that. And I would dance. I was just dancing, you know, just moving my body. And at this time I was still kind of seeing what other people were doing, but I didn't even know what questions to ask until I went to see my pelvic floor physiotherapist.
[00:07:22] Leslie Santoz: I think that was at the eight week mark. She gave me the, the go ahead. Yep. You are ready to weight train. [00:07:30] No, no, I wasn't. And a lot of people feel pressured. I know I felt pressured. I'm like, Oh, I'm supposed to be this person. I've worked out for years, like lived an active lifestyle.
[00:07:40] Leslie Santoz: And people still say to me, Oh, you bounced back. No, it's been a year and a half. I finally got abs again. But I worked very, very hard and actually, I had my daughter in April of 2022 the end of November 2022 was when my incision stopped hurting. Wow, okay. So I could not have a normal workout.
[00:08:03] Leslie Santoz: So when you ask, say at like that 10 week mark, when I started working out, what were my workouts like my workouts were exactly like my warmups are right now. Not really a whole lot. I was not really sweating that much at all. And mind you, the pressure was on me even more because when I had my daughter, I only had four months until I was supposed to get married four months to fit into my wedding dress.
[00:08:26] Leslie Santoz: So the pressure was on. So just a lot of walking, , but I kept at that core rehab, the pelvic floor, the breathing, I did it. So many times a day. The pelvic floor physiotherapist told me I did not need to do it that much because a, I did the core work during pregnancy.
[00:08:45] Leslie Santoz: So I did not have much diastasis recti, which is the ab separation and B , I took care of myself so well. And the fact that I didn't have the vaginal delivery definitely helped my pelvic [00:09:00] floor. But I did it. So I could learn exactly what to do because when I found it so hard I was really down on myself some days and I'm like, you know what there are definitely other people like me there are other moms like me going through the exact same stuff and There needs to be more resources when I was looking up core rehab.
[00:09:21] Leslie Santoz: I actually did not find that much and I'm like I am going to find a link for this. I'm going to focus my personal training with women. I'm now going to focus it more on the postpartum aspect because I didn't really get too much of it while I was pregnant and my passion really grew.
[00:09:38] Leslie Santoz: I just like soaked it all up like a sponge after, after my delivery. So I just I created social media groups, I wrote programs, I read and read and read so many articles created this Facebook page, which has been phenomenal. I've had so much support
[00:09:57] Amy Squires: I've seen that recently.
[00:09:58] Amy Squires: You've got an incredible following. You're supporting a lot of moms. The comments that you see coming in from people you're helping a lot of women,
[00:10:05] Leslie Santoz: it's so rewarding. It is so rewarding. I offer my ear as well to people who just need to vent. and there's, there's a lot of value in that.
[00:10:13]
[00:10:13] Empowerment, right? , we really need to build each other.
[00:10:16] Leslie Santoz: , there are so many obstacles and especially so much stress on us, our appearance and how we should be. It's really easy to talk to somebody who doesn't know you, who doesn't know anything about your life. In this journey, and [00:10:30] I really just focused on the, the mom pooch.
[00:10:34] Leslie Santoz: And that diastasis recti, the ab separation, just literally helping women lose weight, do that core rehab and pelvic floor work, and... With time, that mom pooch shrinks.
[00:10:47] Amy Squires: The mom pooch does that happen as a result of ab separation,
[00:10:50] Leslie Santoz: Yes. Yes. And of course, when you're pregnant, you put on additional weight and where's the first place that women put weight on? It's the belly, right? Yeah, but it is because the top part of your abdomen can still be fairly tight like it was before, but because when the baby starts to lower, the lower abs, so then you'll see, you'll see like a stomach and then and that's the little pooch and I had one, I could hold it in my hand and I'm like What am I going to do with this?
[00:11:18] Leslie Santoz: This is so foreign to me. And I just kept at it. Like I ate healthy, made sure that I rested.
[00:11:23] And that is why I I created just a helpful guide to that core rehab. I created an ebook
[00:11:30] Leslie Santoz: It's an easy guide.
[00:11:31] Amy Squires: We might share the link if you have a shareable link in the transcript below this video.
[00:11:36] Leslie Santoz: Absolutely. Yeah. Great. So I wouldn't mind taking you through a diaphragm breathing session. Yeah, alright, let's do that, you can do it while you're sitting up.
[00:11:46] I'll sit up a little straighter.
[00:11:47] Leslie Santoz: I know, me too. And what I always tell people is I usually just close my eyes.
[00:11:52] Leslie Santoz: It's kind of like meditation to me. And so I always put one hand on my chest, one hand on my [00:12:00] belly. You're gonna inhale through your nose and you're going to fill your your belly. Don't force the air in, just let it come naturally. And you'll feel your belly move, not your chest. If your chest is moving, just reset.
[00:12:15] Leslie Santoz: Exhale through your mouth.
[00:12:18] Leslie Santoz: So inhale, fill the belly. Exhale through the mouth.
[00:12:22] Leslie Santoz: And really putting those two hands there really physically makes a difference with my clients. When they don't put their hands there, they, their chest tends to rise. So
[00:12:35] Leslie Santoz: you can really focus just on the belly.
[00:12:40] Leslie Santoz: I usually tell my clients to do two to three sets of maybe eight to 10 reps. And although this is very simple, it's kind of like a mind muscle connection. And it's, it's the very first thing I tell actually all of my clients to do. I find it very common for my female clients. They tend to always assume or think that they have a weak core.
[00:13:06] Leslie Santoz: And so I actually do diaphragm breathing when I weightlift. I'll do it during squats, deadlifts, and anything and everything.
[00:13:14] Amy Squires: It is very relaxing as I'm just sitting here.
[00:13:16] Leslie Santoz: It is. I, so that's the very first thing I do that when I meditate as well. Okay, so now it's going to be kind of like a two part little series. So we're going to do the diaphragm breathing and you [00:13:30] can kind of watch me as I explain.
[00:13:33] Leslie Santoz: Then we are going to activate our pelvic floor and our core
[00:13:38] Amy Squires: this is like a little mind bending puzzle. Is it ?
[00:13:40] Leslie Santoz: Yeah. And I think I've definitely heard of this description before and I think I stuck with it because other descriptions I think I'm just doing a Kegel, right. Right. So, once again, we can do this laying down or sitting up, so we'll, we'll do it sitting up. We'll do that diaphragm breath. And once again, you can close your eyes. And with a few of the things that I'm going to say, it is fine if you giggle because I mostly get a giggle whenever I start with some of this vocabulary. But okay, so we're gonna. Hand on the chest, hand on the belly. We're going to practice those diaphragm breaths, okay?
[00:14:17] Leslie Santoz: So just do a few and then I'll keep on continuing the instructions. So inhale, exhale out of the mouth.
[00:14:27] Leslie Santoz: So while you are doing that a few times, I'm going to slowly explain what I want you to do next. So you, while you're sitting there, on your next exhale, I want you to shift your hips a little kind of upward or forward. I've actually never explained this while somebody's sitting up, so this will be interesting.
[00:14:48] Leslie Santoz: So, completely relax and fill your belly on the inhale. And then on the exhale, tilt your pelvis, your hips, [00:15:00] forward.
[00:15:02] Leslie Santoz: Okay, we're going to keep adding to that exhale. So the inhale will remain the same. And then on the exhale, you are going to picture a jelly bean at the entrance of your vagina. And what you're going to do is you are slowly, very slowly, just going to pull the jelly bean up just a little bit. , when you're all out of breath for the exhale, just release.
[00:15:29] Leslie Santoz: It's fine, you keep starting over, you'll get further and further. When you're pulling that jelly bean off on the exhale, and keep your hips and your pelvis tilted, It may not be a smooth transition all the way up. It might be kind of like an elevator. It stops temporarily, goes again, stops temporarily, goes again.
[00:15:50] Leslie Santoz: That's normal. Everybody's kind of transition's not always completely smooth. When we pull that jelly bean on the exhale as far up as we can and we think okay, I can't pull this jelly bean up any further. We are going to crush it. Just picture just crushing it with your core, your abs, kind of just like an intense Kegel.
[00:16:12] Leslie Santoz: Okay, so now we're gonna crush. Okay, so start all of the steps over again. Inhale through the belly. Exhale. Shift the pelvis and hips. Take the jelly bean, pull, pull, [00:16:30] pull, crush the jelly bean. And now you're going to push your belly button into your spine.
[00:16:38] Leslie Santoz: So it takes a few tries to get this. It's a lot of work here. It is a lot of mind muscle work. I just had a client last week, I went over this with her in person. And she said that she felt things that she's never even felt before.
[00:16:54] Amy Squires: I can definitely see how this, if you've got ab separation and you're doing all this and you're working your pelvic floor, I mean, I can feel this.
[00:17:02] Leslie Santoz: Yeah, absolutely. And of course then in your regular weightlifting session, HIIT session, what cardio session, whatever you can still like even when I'm watching TV, I lean back a little bit, especially if my daughter's in my arms and I'm engaging that core, I'm constantly engaging the core.
[00:17:20] Leslie Santoz: Right now I actually have a lumbar support pillow. Yeah, but once again, I can lean back. I've been engaging my core this whole podcast so far. So yeah, I don't do ab work, right? So a lot of people assume, oh, you must do a lot of ab work. No, I don't. I just engage my core as much as I can.
[00:17:40] Leslie Santoz: So when you did that, were you kind of feeling things that you never really even thought of before?
[00:17:44] Amy Squires: Yeah. So I do like to work out. I'm no stranger to lifting weights or running and things like that, but this, I've never applied this during a workout,
[00:17:53] Leslie Santoz: , even when I, I was helping to manage a clinical athletic center and they would always say, okay, brace your [00:18:00] core. Okay. I'm flexing. Right? Yeah. They wouldn't tell me any different. No, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:18:06] Leslie Santoz: Actually it's just like a, okay, it's just a little bit, you're not flexing. So it's completely different. Right? And so I would flex when I was doing stuff, but you're actually overexerting it. Right? So yeah. Plenty to learn and it's so rewarding and so exciting that I get to help so many different women
[00:18:24] Amy Squires: so , after we do all that kind of engaging, and, you know, picking up the jelly bean, what's next? I guess, so first, how long are you meant to be doing that? Or how many times a day? Yeah,
[00:18:35] Leslie Santoz: the general guideline if I'm not consulting with somebody and they haven't done my pre or post natal health questionnaire is I tell people, of course, the first thing is , listen to your body. If it doesn't feel good, don't do it. I always recommend going to a pelvic floor physiotherapist. And then they can say, Oh, give them some beginner core stuff or some intermediate or advanced. But then the next thing is I actually just started like laying on the mat and doing as many.
[00:19:04] Leslie Santoz: Exercises I could while laying on the mat.
[00:19:07] , leg lifts is, is one thing. So just laying on the floor, pushing your back into the mat and slowly lifting one leg up at a time. So I did, I did a lot of that. Heel taps is an easier one. So your feet are already in the air. You're laying on the mat and you're kind of tapping your heel off the floor.
[00:19:25] Leslie Santoz: Bird dogs side planks is another one. So these are all the [00:19:30] beginner stuff. And like I said, Nobody told me this, and then when I consulted with the physiotherapist, I told her, Oh, by the way, while I'm doing all of these exercises, I'm doing that pelvic floor and core activation.
[00:19:44] Leslie Santoz: And she's like, that's genius. , yes, that's only going to increase your recovery right. So although it did take me that long. I am glad that I didn't give up because there were times where I'm like, Oh, I, this is it for me. This is the end of my fitness journey and I kept it up and kept it up because also it's, it's my knee time and it's, it's my breakaway as much as I love my kid.
[00:20:06] Leslie Santoz: I need, I need some like mental space. And so I kept up with it and you know, I, I found my passion and I'm now there's so much to learn with the postpartum world and I'm actually I'm currently getting certified in pre and postnatal fitness.
[00:20:21] Amy Squires: I guess, as you're learning with the you know, the pre, you've got the post down and you were saying that you were doing some exercises. On your own as well when you were pregnant.
[00:20:31] Amy Squires: So doing these pre, does that reduce the risk of the ab separation? Or is that kind of going to happen anyway?
[00:20:38] Leslie Santoz: I think, yeah, I think that's, I think it's clearly on an individual basis. Because the biggest, the biggest thing with diastasis recti is, okay, so your abs, they're supposed to split. And you are supposed to be patient and wait.
[00:20:53] Leslie Santoz: And to not work out, even if you can work out, right? Even if you feel like working out. And that's the thing, like, you're just sitting [00:21:00] there. You're like I need, I need to get back to my body. I'm not doing anything.
[00:21:03] Leslie Santoz: Like, I need to be moving. I need to be doing this and this. But actually just that flexion, like, let's just say, Nothing hurt me and I started doing crunches and sit ups and I'm constantly flexing my body, that lower, the lower part of your abdomen, your transverse abdominus, that's where all the weak stuff is, and now it's still separated and you're tightening it, tightening it, but it's still separated, so then it's gonna do this, and it's gonna further, so it'll be like, tight.
[00:21:31] Leslie Santoz: But not together, the muscle, the tissue needs to heal together and only time will do that. So for instance a dear friend of mine very big into CrossFit she competed three months postpartum.
[00:21:46] Leslie Santoz: Wow, and that was when I learned about diastasis recti. She didn't even know the name of it. She's like, oh, yeah, that's my abs split. I'm like, what do you mean? That's your abs split. That is significant. So technically a significant ab separation we measure it by finger widths. Anything past 2 finger widths is severe.
[00:22:06] Leslie Santoz: After your healing time, so, I probably had this or this or this, like when I first had my kid, but after that, like, eight weeks, it should be down to less than two. Hers were probably that far. More competing? while competing. Wow. Yes. And she said, she's [00:22:30] like, yeah, it was a little uncomfortable, but you just, you just, you just got to give it your all.
[00:22:33] Leslie Santoz: She was so passionate about it, you know? And did it pose any real health risk to her? No, no, it didn't. She was able to compete and stuff. She placed she enjoyed herself,
[00:22:43] Leslie Santoz: but I think the real struggle with, with women when they say, Oh, well, this is me now. First of all, if that's, you know, that is okay. My main focus is to make people feel good in their own skin, whether that be super fit or whether they just want to have more energy whether they just want to get rid of a little mom pooch.
[00:23:05] Leslie Santoz: But the thing is. My guide, the e book that I created, if you just follow the exercises. A small difference. Yeah, but like you have to walk , just live an active lifestyle whether that be walking, running, cycling, swimming, whatever And then it's the eating healthy part.
[00:23:23] Leslie Santoz: I had to work out and eat In a way that I never had to before because my, my belly was really holding on to that extra fat. . And so , it's a complete lifestyle change.
[00:23:36] Leslie Santoz: It is a behavior change. And women get really hurt on themselves. Oh, I'm not seeing progress. It's, it's been three months. I'm not seeing anything. , it could take, maybe 10, 11 months. And , I'll never have the body that I had before and I don't want it.
[00:23:50] Leslie Santoz: You know I feel way mentally stronger. I know what my body's capable of and I housed a human being, so the empowerment and the [00:24:00] confidence as women it's, it's very, very big struggle. Because they're like, oh, this is me now and I can't do anything and I don't have time and I'm always tired, blah.
[00:24:08] Leslie Santoz: It's hard. It is very hard. Do I have the time every day to work out? No, I don't. So sometimes I will get up at 6 AM when , I probably went to bed at midnight and I'm so tired, but that's the only time that I am going to get to work out,
[00:24:23] Leslie Santoz: So I, I definitely really take those things seriously. And so I just want to help as many people as I can
[00:24:29] Leslie Santoz: I to try to be as positive and just empower women as best as I can and just keep on learning and.. , just making people feel stronger and, you know, better about themselves and
[00:24:38] Amy Squires: more confident. Well, it sounds like you're doing that. It sounds like you're doing a great job at it. I wanted to ask, what do you say to women who just really don't have the time?
[00:24:48] Amy Squires: Or. are suffering from postpartum depression and are finding it hard to get the motivation to get on the mat or, you know, into the gym. How do you navigate that?
[00:24:58] Leslie Santoz: So the very first thing, of course, that I do is, because I'm not a professional with the postpartum depression, is to talk to somebody. And , I've had, a lot of people reach out to me with postpartum depression. It's very common. It is. It is very, and there's people that I know, know well that had it that I didn't even realize did raise. It was kind of one of those unspoken things, but people are starting to speak out about it more.
[00:25:21] Leslie Santoz: But when there are some people that don't feel comfortable going to a therapist. I tell them that I'm there for them. I, I can listen and try to help [00:25:30] in any way that I can,
[00:25:31] Leslie Santoz: but of course there's hope , at the end of the tunnel but for people who don't have time and maybe physically, you could tell them, I'm going to give you a million dollars if you do this program and they just can't little things like. I'm going to focus on eating less sugar this week.
[00:25:49] Leslie Santoz: At the end of the week. and I asked people just kind of track on, there is no judgment at all. Track first of all, for one week, track how much artificial sugar you're consuming and just little things like that. How much water are you drinking? They say it's roughly around half your body weight in ounces is what you're supposed to consume. Other people say 2. 7 a gallon, whatever. But for me, it's , just try to drink as much water to make yourself feel hydrated.
[00:26:18] Leslie Santoz: So , that's another habit. So for my coaching clients, I'll set little daily habits for them. So watch your sugar for one week and let's just work on that. And maybe drink some water. The next week is okay. How was your sleep? And I tell them, Hey, this is going to be a six to eight week process to even get you into the habit of working out.
[00:26:40] Leslie Santoz: Right, so then I'll start them with walking. Now I want you to , track whatever it is you're doing, whether it be time or distance, every single time you go out, even if it's one minute longer.
[00:26:51] Leslie Santoz: Ten meters more. I want you to beat that record every single time. I guess
[00:26:56] Amy Squires: it's that golden rule, you only have to be one percent better every day.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Leslie Santoz: Exactly. And it took me years. Just a little bit more. It took me years to be disciplined the way I am and you know, I don't want to be the type of person either that tracks, all of what they do.
[00:27:10] Leslie Santoz: So once somebody gets into the habit of, yeah, you know what, okay, this is now what I'm consuming on a daily basis and you know, I'm feeling a lot better and I definitely think I'm not eating as much artificial sugar. , they're not tracking in REMS, but I don't like to do that. It's great for people who are fitness enthusiasts and they have a particular goal that they're working towards.
[00:27:29] Leslie Santoz: But I really do believe in intuitive eating, just kind of like a natural mindset. I really just like to leave it. in the client's hands. What is it that you want and we'll work around it. It's their journey. They're in control the whole time and all I can do is guide them with the goals that they have given me.
[00:27:47] Amy Squires: It's great that you've been able to take your own experience and just share it with so many people I hope that anybody listening who is kind of feeling down on themselves or want to get rid of a mom pooch get in touch with Leslie and see how she can help.
[00:28:02] Leslie Santoz: . It was a pleasure being here. If you are listening right now and you were feeling down about yourself and stuff, it is possible. Baby steps. Thank you for having me.
[00:28:11] Amy Squires: Thank you everyone for listening, and we'll see you again next time.
[00:28:15] Amy Squires: Thanks, Leslie.
[00:28:16] [00:28:30]
