Building Essential Skills through the Parenting in Jail Program

How can incarcerated parents maintain healthy relationships with their children? In this episode of the OK State of Mind podcast, Lucie Doll, Program Director of FCS's Parenting in Jail Program, answers this very question. Lucie shares with us how her program helps incarcerated parents obtain essential parenting skills and provides comprehensive support for parents, children, and families through evidence-based parenting classes, in-jail contact visits with minor children and caregiver support.

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Transcript

Chris: 0:00

Hello and welcome to OK State of Mind, a podcast by Family Children's Services, based in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This podcast seeks to satisfy inquisitive minds eager to delve into the realm of mental health and overall well being. Join us on a journey to gain insights into the intricacies of the human psyche Drawing inspiration from stories of resilience and hope.

Rachel: 0:23

Together we'll unravel the fascinating science, the invisibilia that underpins our behaviors, shedding light on the whys behind our behavior and overall mental health. Our goal is to empower, educate, and inspire you with actionable insights that you can immediately use in pursuing your own mental wellbeing.

Chris: 0:41

In our last episode, we spoke with Family Children's Services' new CEO, Adam Andreassen. During this episode, Andreassen discussed his journey within behavioral health care and shared insights into the personal motivations that fuel his dedication to transforming the lives of those in need. He also discussed how FCS, a Certified Community Behavioral Health Center, goes beyond mental health care, integrating physical health coordination and robust social services. This episode, as well as all other episodes of OK State of Mind, are available at okstateofmind.com, as well as other major podcast platforms. Today we're speaking with Lucie Doll, Director of the Parenting in Jail Program at FCS. Lucie supports a team of educators who serve families impacted by the criminal legal system through evidence-based parenting classes, in jail contact visits with minor children and their loved ones, and- caregiver support. Lucie serves on the board of directors for the Oklahoma Partnership for School Readiness Foundation and she holds a bachelor of science in business administration and a minor in public policy from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. We're happy to have you with us here today, Lucie. Today we're interested in a high level overview of your program. Can you take a minute to describe Parenting in Jail for anybody who might not be familiar with it?

Lucie: 2:07

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here. The Parenting in Jail program is a program of Family Children's Services. We're a psychoeducational program and we're currently operating in six county jails in Tulsa and surrounding counties. We go into those jails and we teach parenting education 2 to 3 times a week. We often have the opportunity to facilitate in person contact visits. with kiddos and their incarcerated loved ones and then we support the caregivers that are actively caring for children in the community make sure they have the support and the resources that they need as they go through this this time in their lives

Rachel: 2:43

How do you determine who will be a part of the Parenting in Jail services in the program?

Lucie: 2:49

So our program is 100 percent voluntary. We put up sign up sheets in the pod or we have opportunities if you are jails for them to sign up on a kiosk, but regardless, either way, it's something that we want folks to want to be there. And so it's something they opt into. We may get a referral from jail staff or from child welfare workers, but it's something that they opt into and want to participate in. We will take any Individual in our jails that has a relationship with with minor children. So we really prioritize our parents, but we also see a lot of benefit to grandma, grandpa and uncle, older sister, brother, maybe even a parental figure that isn't the biological parent. It's our belief and our approach that the child, the children are community will be stronger if every adult in their life has the skills that they could be taught through this program and also that every family looks pretty different. And so we don't put really restrictive criteria there on that relationship, and then we do have a few charges that would make someone ineligible. And those are your more violent charges or egregious charges towards a child. And so there's a few that we would staff or or rule out. But other than that, it's just making sure that jail staff approves. They have discretion, of course, because it takes place in their facility, and it's considered a privilege at our jails. So, we work closely with jail staff to make sure that they're on good behavior to participate.

Chris: 4:10

Hmm. Is it open to women and men, or is it women only?

Lucie: 4:13

It is. It was started out as women only. We've been doing this work since 2015, and it started just serving women in the Tulsa County Jail. David L. Moss. And we had the opportunity to expand as a result of getting funding through the state of Oklahoma through the Department of Human Services. We got two TANF contracts and that allowed us to expand geographically and then also led to us serving men in partnership with philanthropic partners. So we now serve men. We've been doing that about the last year and a half and we've seen a lot of success. We had, we actually had a lot of requests from our law enforcement partners and toll set what, you know, can we do this for the men and the dads? And so when we got the opportunity through increased funding streams Then we were really excited to do it and it's been pretty wonderful to watch it unfold.

Rachel: 4:57

That's great Can you kind of walk us through what the program looks like for participants? Is it the same for everyone or do you tailor it to certain needs?

Lucie: 5:06

Probably the best answer to that is both. Everyone's getting the same curriculum. We use an evidence based curriculum. It's called Parenting Inside Out. And that curriculum is the highest rated evidence based curriculum that's specifically geared towards individuals with criminal legal system involvement. So there's actually specifically a jail based version of the curriculum. And that is taught with the understanding that you're not going home to practice these skills tonight in your living room with your kiddos, but let's talk about how you can put them into action during your next video visit or during your next in person visit or maybe just your next phone call with your kids. It also focuses a lot on the, the caregiver relationship and understanding how important and crucial that is to effective parenting given the situation the family's currently in. So everyone is receiving that curriculum. It's 12 lessons in the jail and that is happening in a group setting. So there's peer learning, there's role play with one another, there's that peer advice and, and really working through problem solving situations together. But before anyone's enrolled in the class, we do a one on one screening with our educator and individual, and that's when we're getting a better understanding of their unique situation. So, where are your kids right now? Do you have contact with them? What does that look like? What's your relationship with your caregiver? Is your caregiver your Mother and their grandmother. Is it your ex partner really understanding what are those dynamics and then understanding what led them to their time in jail currently? Whether they're engaged with any programs, what are their what they think will happen to them next? And then really getting a baseline of their parenting skills using a pre survey. So we really can tailor our approach to outreaching their family and their children based on all that information. So they're learning the same skills because we want to stay in the evidence based curriculum. But how our educators work with their family is very much tailored to each situation, and it looks so different for every family. Success looks different for every family. Unfortunately, every parent can't have contact with their children. But many can, and maybe there are barriers that we could help to remove. And so that's when we really work to, to tailor based on their goals and their current situation. In addition to those classes, it's 12 lessons. That curriculum is really engaging, really tailored to their unique situation. So, when they're talking about things like effective speaking or effective listening, they're actually going through role plays. And we've actually had participants come back and say, this works. My phone call lasted more than 30 seconds. Instead of saying, put my kids on the phone. I asked my mom how she was doing. I thanked her for what she's doing. And then I listened to her response before I answered. And we see these incremental wins. There's obviously a lot that can happen in folks' families before we, before we see them. There's no silver bullet, but we see it. Often very quick wins in mending those relationships just by some really foundational skills, like how do you effectively listen, effectively, speak in a respectful way that can really help acknowledge the work that your family member is doing for you, but also to get your needs across. If, if you wanna know how your kiddo's doing, or if you wanna have input on that child's life, like if that's your goal, here's some of the steps that, that you need to take. So on that note, in addition to the classes. Three of our jails, we have weekly enhanced contact visitation, so every week. Anyone is eligible if they've taken at least half of the curriculum, so six lessons. We'll outreach caregivers and determine if it's in the best interest of the children to see their parent. And we'll work with caregivers and of course DHS Child Welfare if they're a party to the family situation. And if it is in the best interest, then we can facilitate contact visits. And those are so different than what is typically available to a child with an incarcerated parent in our jails. In most cases, there's no opportunity for them to really see their parent without our program. In some, they might be able to sit in a visitation room that you might envision with the glass or plexiglass divider. But how hard is that for a toddler to not understand why they can't touch their mom that used to care for them? It's hard for an adult to see their loved one behind glass. But those non contact visits are really challenging for our littles. So our visits look totally different. We roll out bright colorful rugs. We bring in toys and books and games and parents really get to practice the skills they learn in class and kids get to really interact as naturally as possible given the setting with their parents. We have a few jails that we can do it on a case by case basis. And then if we can't do in person visits, either because of the jails restrictions or because the family can't make it there, then we can also facilitate free video visits, which are a really wonderful aspect because there's no charge to either party. We can do those on a recurring basis. And we have techniques even to make video visits more meaningful, even for your littles. We have tips on, like, caregivers that are can be the hands of the the participant. So maybe mom's going to tickle the one year old through the screen and caregiver is going to actually tickle the kiddo. And we have these techniques that, that actually can make a difference. Or maybe we send a book to their house, that's the same that mom is reading. And so they're reading that book together. So there are ways that we can, can try to really optimize those experiences for, for kiddos. And then the third piece is the caregiver support. So I just want to touch on that because it's so important. About half our caregivers are the other parent, and then about a quarter are grandparents, and then that remaining quarter looks like all sorts of different relationships. And so we reach out to caregivers too, and we just ask what they need. They're often informal kinship, so they've just taken the kiddos at the time of arrest maybe, or maybe they've had the kiddos off and on for a long time. And so they may not be receiving any formal support. Or it's the other parent and they've lost a primary caregiver and financial provider and their life has changed very dramatically. And so we just look to link them to resources and services. So we refer them to the various family and children's programs. We can do school supplies and holiday gifts and things of that nature.

Chris: 11:06

That's awesome. So, it's really more than just a parent and a child. It's a parent, child, and their entire, caring community. How long has Parenting in Jail been in place now?

Lucie: 11:19

Began in 2015. And that was again when we were in on that smaller scale. So working with women and just the Tulsa County Jail, David L. Moss.

Chris: 11:27

Okay.

Lucie: 11:28

The broader expansions been since essentially early 2022.

Chris: 11:32

Any other changes or evolutions in the program that you've observed or that you're aware of since 2016?

Lucie: 11:40

The biggest ones are that we've expanded to serve men. We've expanded into some of our surrounding counties. The resources there look different. We get to know those communities so that we can really plug folks into what is available near them. So that's been a huge change. And then we've really strengthened the caregiver support arm more over the years. And that was really credit to my colleague Alicia, who really saw that need, that they were not receiving support. And she realized that when she was calling them to set up visits. And she'd hear that they, they didn't know if they were going to be able to put food on the table. Or they were just really overwhelmed with, The impact of incarceration. They didn't know how to talk to their little in a way that was, they wanted to protect them, but they wanted to, they couldn't even figure out how to broach the topic. Mm-Hmm. And so that's where this, this arm of caregiver support has really strengthened over the years, and we continue to work to build that out.

Rachel: 12:30

What can a person expect when starting the parenting in jail program?

Lucie: 12:36

We have a whole community agreement. And that is a lot of mutual respect. We don't force anyone to share, but I think what we see is a lot of introspection and vulnerability once they get in. But really, it's just an openness and we ask that they come really ready to engage. We find that they open up really quickly and really enjoy that but really making sure that if they sign up, that they continue to show up and they show up and ready to, to really take part in the curriculum and support their peers through this process. But then more logistically they're, they're signing up for classes two to three times a week over the course of four to six weeks and then they're potentially, they're signing up for a family liaison that's going to help them to pursue whatever goals they have as it pertains to contacting their children.

Chris: 13:23

Any participants ever expressed fear or uneasiness about starting the program?

Lucie: 13:29

Yes, I think it takes a while to build trust, right? I mean, we're asking how you parent your child, and that can feel awfully vulnerable, especially knowing where we're meeting them when we have these conversations. And so I think there's certainly fear around how that vulnerability might be used against them or their family, knowing that they've come into contact with a lot of systems by the time we meet with them. So I certainly think there's a little bit of that. I think when I see the most fear is when our, it's not around us, but it's when our participants haven't seen their kiddos in a long time. We have had visits where they haven't seen each other in months. We've had visits where they haven't seen each other in over a year. We've had dads that have met their babies for the first time in our visits. So I think the most emotion is anticipation. I've had grown men shaking ready to hold that infant. See a lot of fear around changing that first diaper and, you know, there's often a lot of shame that comes with that. And so I think for us, it's helping them to. process that and of course, take accountability, but move past it so that they can look forward to all the parenting opportunities that they and their children have in the future. And so it's really helping them to feel empowered and have some hope. But I think to me, yeah, the most fear is sometimes those visits where you haven't hugged your child in two years and, and And we had one like that, and, and she was the primary caregiver before that happened. So you think about just the tremendous negative impact on, on everyone involved.

Rachel: 15:01

Can you share a success story from the Parenting in Jail program? I'm sure you have many.

Lucie: 15:05

We do, and we have hard ones too. I mean, just to be frank we have so many different levels of success. So we have a beautiful success story is that we had, unfortunately, a mother who went through the, the process of giving birth while incarcerated in jail and then having that baby taken, of course, because he couldn't return to the jail. Awfully traumatic for all involved and came with a lot of hopelessness, I think, and a lot of resentment and anger that that was the situation, but that quickly turned to, What do I need to do to get on track here? And so our program was there so she could enroll in the program and she could take parenting classes and she could progress on her individualized service plan that DHS child welfare had assigned to her in order to work towards that reunification, which isn't always the case of a parent's incarcerated. You know, we hear from workers that it's often don't have much to update on because mom's in jail or dad's in jail. So with our program, she was able to complete a full box on her list for her individualized service plan. She completed evidence based parenting and then she was able to visit with her baby girl weekly and child welfare came to observe how positively they're engaging that they were building that bond. And so when she was released, we have colleagues from our reentry team that helped to identify transitional housing upon her release and she already had such a strong foundation and she was so hopeful. Yeah. By the time she stepped foot outside of that jail and she was able to enter trial reunification a matter of weeks after release, which is just not your norm when you're leaving incarceration. And so I think that is a really beautiful success story. That's like maximizing everything our program could do. That's not what happens to everyone by any means. We have folks that might not be released to the community in the short term. A really beautiful success I've seen recently is we have a dad who has a teenager who's really struggling with His incarceration. She and so sometimes she doesn't feel like getting on the phone She is just really struggling to work through that as you can imagine and he was asking about ways that he could help her process And how could they figure this out? And so we ordered books for them. They're published by kids whose parents are incarcerated. It's a compilation of prose and poems about the experience. So they're doing, they are now using their weekly visits for a book club and they're talking about the poems that they're reading and she's talking about how it relates to her experience. And dad is reading these poems and it's beautiful. I mean, he's doing anything he can to meet her where she is. And again, moving past that. That shame. You can actively parent here and here. Here's some tools and how can we support you? So success can look really different. But I think they're, it's all incredibly meaningful. Children love their parents and the parents love their children and just helping them to connect in a meaningful and effective way. It's of course safe and healthy for all.

Chris: 17:58

Yeah. What sort of feedback are you getting on this? I can imagine you're getting very positive feedback from participants but how are people responding to this outside of the program?

Lucie: 18:10

Well, I think about participant feedback this week. I heard that we had a graduation and we had a participant say, this is the first thing I've ever completed. I was holding a certificate and I did it for my kids. So I think that is pretty rewarding feedback for our team and we hope the first of many things they complete. But then from our jail partners, we couldn't do this work without the jail staff letting us in the door. And we see really positive feedback from them. In addition to the outcomes and the goals that our program prioritizes. We see a lot of tangential benefits to just general increase in pro social behavior. Those communication skills they use with caregiver. They also work with the detention officers and they work with your pot, the folks on your pod. And those that emotion regulation that you can use when your kiddos throwing a fit. You can also use when there's a fight taking place and you're not going to partake because you've got, now you have something to really lose. You have something hopeful while you're incarcerated and something to work toward. So we see positive feedback on that. Just giving folks opportunity to progress in an environment that doesn't always have a lot of opportunity for hope or opportunity to learn really engage in a positive way. So we get positive feedback from that. And then, you know, the community, I think opportunities like this are so important to be able to talk about what we do because I think it's quite frequently, unless you've been directly impacted by this system, you're not thinking about what's going on inside your local jail. And you're not thinking about the devastation that that one person's incarceration has left on an entire family. But when we have the opportunity to tell folks about the positive things going on about how resilient people are and how, how much they strive to improve their lives for their family break those cycles, we've seen positive reactions. We had an incredible turnout from the community. We had over 40 donors that adopted 70 kiddos for the holidays. And that tells me that there's not stigma around all this family. You know, deserves the situation they're in that shows me that maybe there's some compassion and we're, we're moving the needle, but there's certainly a lot of work to be done. But I don't know that everyone even knows or thinks about or understands the devastation that can take place in our communities when we incarcerate a single person.

Chris: 20:31

How would families keep in touch today without your program?

Lucie: 20:36

Many jails have the opportunity, or every jail has the opportunity for phone calls and video calls. There's usually a pretty significant cost to those, so folks are paying for that. There's money on their books the caregiver may be providing that money or there's a cost and knowing that many of the families that we work with are already impoverished It's an added cost that many can't afford. So there's actually a study The Ella Baker Center for Human Rights did a study on the cost of families trying to keep in touch with their incarcerated loved ones it's been a few years now, but it found that one in three families go into debt trying to afford the phone calls and visits with their incarcerated loved ones. So when we come in, in some of our jails, we can provide free video visits that were there. We're monitoring where we're there while they're on the iPad and we're making sure that it's a healthy visit and it's at no cost to them. And then for the in person piece, there's not usually that opportunity for contact visitation. There may be the opportunity behind glass. And so really facilitating, without our program, there's not that facilitated contact. But even with the ability, folks are often incarcerated. far away from where their kiddos live. And that can happen for a number of reasons, right? You might be held in a different county jail from where you were arrested. You might be arrested somewhere different from where you live. Maybe your kids had to go live with a family member two hours away when you were incarcerated. And so even driving to the jail can be a huge barrier. So we also give gas cards to our caregivers every week when they bring the kiddos to visits. So we're really working on, not just that relational piece and rebuilding relationships with caregivers, but also reducing the financial costs for these families so that it's something that they don't have to worry about when it comes to the cost burden. And I think one thing to really keep in mind is, of course, we're making sure it's in the best interest of kiddos before we're facilitating any contact. But research does show that if the parent had a primary role with that in that child's life prior to incarceration, that there are negative impacts to that kiddo that are more likely to occur. And that could be worse mental health outcomes, hampered educational outcomes. They may be at a higher risk of incarceration themselves. But there are positive mitigating factors, and, and those are that the child can maintain contact with their parent through the incarceration period, and that there is a support system for that family. So, we think that is really the why it's really helping to reduce the trauma that these kiddos are going through but it also helps the participant, of course, too. And that hope can also reduce recidivism, keep them with ties to their family and their community and give them something to look forward to. So we really see this impacting the entire family and, and really hoping to reduce a lot of the impacts that come from that trauma that the child has experienced as a result of the parent's incarceration

Rachel: 23:21

So at FCS we like to say hope starts here. In light of your role in Parenting in Jail, can you tell us what gives you hope?

Lucie: 23:28

I actually find a lot of hope. in the jails. And some days I am overwhelmed by the news, a crazy work day and I go to work a visit in our jails and I, that is where I get my hope for the next day. I see a lot of humanity and resilience and healing taking place within the classrooms when we have our visits. And so I see hope in our 6'4" dad that is delicately braiding his four year old's hair. I see hope in the dad that's doing book club with his teenager. I see hope with our mom who learned about how to bond with their kids through plain reading and somehow has all four kids spread on the rug listening to her read the same book about how, regardless of their separation, there's always an invisible string that will connect them. I have hope when all the participants write down recipes to mail their kiddos over Thanksgiving because they won't be together. And I see hope in the support that one mom gives another when her kiddos couldn't make it that week. It's, it's a really tough thing to process. So I actually see hope in our jails. I see it every day just through these interactions and the, the beauty of folks really working hard to break cycles for their families and, and make sure their kiddos know that they're loved.

Chris: 24:46

That's awesome. This has been great, Lucie. You know, when I think of parenting in jail, I think of it somewhat academically, and you've really brought some humanity to this, and it's been very insightful and so happy that you were able to join us today, and we hope that you'll be able to again.

Lucie: 25:03

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Rachel: 25:08

Thanks for tuning in. If you found value in what you heard today, there are a few ways you can support and stay connected to us. First, be sure to hit that subscribe button wherever you're listening to us. Subscribing, ensures you never miss an episode, and it's completely free. It also helps us continue bringing you quality content. Consider leaving us a review. Your reviews not only make our day, but they also help others discover the podcast and join our community. Share this episode with your friends, family, and anyone who might find it interesting. Word of Mouth is a powerful way to grow our podcast family and we truly appreciate your support. We're always eager to hear your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions for future episodes. Visit okstateofmind.com for all of our episodes. You can also email us at communications@fcsok.org with any episode ideas or questions. We'd love to connect with you. So thank you once again for accompanying us on this journey. Until next time.