The Intersection of Physical and Mental Health with Bruce Dart and Adam Andreassen

In today's special episode, we’re redefining the conversation around mental health and I’m honored to host two remarkable individuals at the forefront of Tulsa's health landscape. Please welcome Bruce Dart, the visionary Executive Director of the Tulsa Health Department, and Adam Andreassen, the dedicated CEO of Family & Children’s Services.

Embark on a thought-provoking exploration of the intricate dance between physical and mental well-being. From the importance of holistic healthcare to the indispensable role of community partnerships, we'll leave no stone unturned.

But that's not all. We'll also delve into the pressing need for data modernization and robust workforce support in public health initiatives, essential components in addressing the evolving needs of our communities. And of course, we can't ignore the elephant in the room – the lingering stigma surrounding mental health. Throughout the episode, we'll confront this issue head-on.

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Thank you once again for accompanying us on the journey. Until next time!

Transcript

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Welcome to OK State of Mind, a podcast by Family and Children's Services based in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This podcast seeks to satisfy inquisitive minds eager to delve into the realm of mental health and overall well being. Join us on a journey to gain insights into the intricacies of the human psyche, drawing inspiration from the stories of resilience and hope. Together, we'll unravel the fascinating science, the invisibilia, that underpins our behaviors, shedding light on the whys behind our behavior and our overall mental health. Our goal is to empower, educate, and inspire you with actionable insights that you can immediately use in pursuing your own mental well being. In today's special episode, we're redefining the conversation around mental health, and I'm honored to host two remarkable individuals in the forefront of Tulsa's health landscape. Please welcome Bruce Dart, the executive director of the Tulsa Health Department and Adam Andreassen, the CEO of Family and Children's Services. Today, we're going to embark on the thought provoking exploration of the intricate dance between physical and mental well being. From the importance of holistic health care to the indispensable role of community partnerships. But that's not all. We'll also delve into the pressing need for data modernization and robust workforce support in public health initiatives And of course, we can't ignore the elephant in the room, the lingering stigma around mental health. Throughout the episode, we'll confront this issue head on and more. I'm your host, Dee Harris, and with that, welcome Adam and welcome Bruce to OK State of Mind. Well, thank you for having me and I'm honored to be here. Well, we're thrilled to have you. Can you just give me a little bit of, your background where you came from and how you came to Tulsa? You know, I'm a military brat I grew up all over the world, so I'm used to kind of moving. so this is the third state that I've actually worked in, and fifth health department I've worked, fourth one that I've been the director of. So, came here from Lincoln, Nebraska 13 years ago, fell in love with Tulsa and really don't want to be anyplace else. Yeah, Tulsa's pretty sweet. It is. And then, Adam, I know you're new to Tulsa, and how's that feeling so far? Three months in? It's feeling good. Three months, and in all the right ways, it feels like I've been here longer. Uh, you gotta be careful if you say, I feel like I've been here longer, because it could feel like it's stretched out. But the people have been friendly, the restaurants are great. The roads are a work in progress, but everything else is great. Yeah, well, that's true. The roads are a work in progress. So, five local health departments in three states. What brought you to public health, generally speaking? You know, I'll be honest, I just fell into it. I was actually supposed to go to a dental school, and then that summer I thought, you know, this is not how I want to spend my life. So, I had to find a job. And found one in the local health department in Omaha, Nebraska, and it started off in the laboratory, and I figured out fairly quickly that this isn't a job, this can actually be career for me. And the cool thing about public health is that there's so many different professions under that public health umbrella. So I've done everything from being a microbiologist to health inspector to epidemiologist. It's been a fun career. It's one of those things where you love coming to work every day. When were you in Omaha again? How long ago? Um, I start my career in Omaha in 1980. So high level health department work What's the biggest difference, all these years later, and what's about the same? You know, public health has changed dramatically, and we're definitely not The public of 1980. Back then, our big marketing strategy was that we're the invisible shield that protects your community. And then we would wonder why elected officials wouldn't give us money because, you know, they can't see us. So we changed our strategies and we are much more visible now, I think. I told my staff, after the pandemic, I've got good news for you and bad news. And the good news is that everybody now knows about Tulsa Health Department and the bad news is that everybody now knows about Tulsa Health Department. So it sets the bar high and we really demand and ask for excellence from our staff. And you know we work hard, we have fun doing it and hopefully we're providing services that people really engage in, and it's helpful to them. Is the biggest shift in health departments, the one that just happened in the pandemic? Has that permanently changed the way health departments function in community? You know, we lost a lot of public health professionals during the pandemic. So it's almost like as a profession across this country, we're starting over, and we're redefining, I think, what our goals and our objectives are. So our foundational aspect of public health really has not changed. We're here to serve those that don't have a voice and be the voice for them. But we're much more higher profile now and we're really getting engaged in areas that previously had not been the highest priority for us. Like what? Mental health. For example. So, and you know, public health has never really been in the mental health space. But we really saw the effect of stress and mental health on people during the pandemic. We saw how it affected their physical health. And we really saw the intersection of public health, physical health and mental health during that pandemic. So it's an area that we're not providers, we're not experts like you are here at Family Children's Services but we realize that it's a space that we've got to somehow find a foothold in and be a part of and hopefully help people engage services. And you're personally connected to a mental health professional. How has that changed things? You know I've learned so much. Dr. Denise Dart. So my wife's a clinical psychologist. She's the director of behavioral health at Community Health Connection. And, has really opened my eyes to what need truly is. You know, we look at data and sometimes we forget that data means people. And she's a psychologist. She's all about people. She's all about integrating mental health and health services, and she's brought that integration model to me. And so, we're very much focused on how we can integrate all the wonderful services in Tulsa and have much more of a systemic approach to both health and mental health issues here and if we can do things through a system level, I think it's amazing what we could possibly accomplish. I was excited to see the 2023 strategic plan you released at the end of the year, that priority number one was stress and mental health. I know that you just released that recently. What's happened since you've set that as the top goal. We really are engaging with the mental health community. We've had relationships before, but now we're trying to build business partnerships and business relationships And really find out where our place is in this field and not to push anybody out, not to step on any toes, but to acknowledge that this is a huge problem, it requires a collective response. We're learning what stress does to the body, but the whole mental health issue, we're fairly new in and we have to figure out really what's our place. And we acknowledge that our community health improvement plan was developed with the help of about 90 community partners. So it's very much a community plan. And they dictated what our priorities should be. So there's a wide acknowledgement that we have stress and mental health issues here in Tulsa and Tulsa County. And it's great to know that there's a collective initiative to actually do something and be part of something that hopefully can be impactful. So we're figuring out what that is. And we're building relationships. I'm so glad that Adam's here, the more relationships we build, I think the more collaborative response we can have because it really takes a village. And we found that out a long time ago in public health that we do nothing alone, we do nothing in silos. Everything happens through collaboration and partnerships, and the partnership that we're forming with Family and Children's Services so far has been fantastic. And I've learned a lot just talking to the staff here. So, every day is a learning opportunity. I'm not always having my best day every day, but that's okay because we're all human. And that's, I think, the first thing we learned through Looking at these true mental health issues that are impacting our citizens here in Tulsa. And I think there's so much about mental health, and I appreciate the way you go about this and are thinking about it. I think maybe the pandemic didn't cause this, but accelerated that Usually when we think about mental health, the inclination is still to think depression, anxiety, the ailments. But more and more, there's just so much more research and I think it's starting to creep into just general consciousness, even if you don't have training, that mental well being affects everything. It affects how much you're able to attend work. It affects how well a community functions. It affects crime. And it just seems like that awareness that your overall mental well being weighs on everything, even if you don't have a diagnosis or a concern. It's just everywhere. You know, and you're absolutely right and it's a quality of life issue. As we really saw the impact of What the pandemic did to everybody throughout this country, and of course, we all know what happened here in Tulsa and Oklahoma and, you know, it's time for us to stand up and say so It seems like mental health has always been kind of the quiet child in the corner. Well, we found out that that's the last place it's got to be. It's a big part of everyone's life. And, you know, we've seen a lot of data. We see increases in youth suicide We've seen poverty rates go up. And, you know, all that is, I think, mental health distress contributes to that And so there's lots of data we're learning to look at and really quantify what quality of life is and what wellness is. You can't have mental health without physical health and vice versa. We're acknowledging that We're late to the table and we know that but we're here now, and we want to be part of the system collective and the system partnerships to hopefully help people not be stigmatized, to seek these services, and to acknowledge that, you know, I'm depressed, or I've got issues, or whatever and my quality of life isn't where it should be, so with these partnerships and the help with organization like yours, I think we can move that needle. Well, I appreciate the statement. We're late to the table. I don't think the health department is late to the table I think as a society, this sort of aha moment is realizing all this interconnectedness and that when we underfund mental health or anything connected to it, We are really affecting everything. I think that notion that the whole thread is connected is sort of a new notion not that it should be, but it just seems like the society is starting to acknowledge and even realize the ways in which investing in mental well being is good economic policy, is good community organization policy. It's just good to make sure that we attend to these things. You know, and I, so agree with you, Adam, and, you're right. It is a thread and everything is connected. We have to do a better job of creating a seamless mental health and health system here in Tulsa, here in Oklahoma, really throughout this country. We saw the public health system kind of decimated. We lost, I think 60, 000 professionals during the pandemic. And a lot of that was because of mental health people couldn't handle the strain anymore. And they left. And I think we've all seen that and that's happened with multiple professions and we know that, let's just be honest, the mental health system is underfunded. You know, we need practitioners. We need to increase access and we need to acknowledge that, we all need help at times. And that was very clear during the pandemic. And, you know, I had a lot of questions about how we took care of our staff and frankly, I was focused on the public and I wasn't near as focused on our staff as I should have been and I learned a hard lesson about really it starts at home and in this case home was Tulsa Health Department and so we do much more now to actually support our staff and we've learned from like minded professionals like you and you know if our staff aren't healthy and productive, it's a community that suffers, so we have to take care of our staff before we can take care of the community. Well, that makes so much sense. You mentioned in an article back in 2020 that really it was your team's sacrifices that made all the difference. And, I'm glad to hear that you are still recognizing how important your staff is to the agendas you're trying to push forward. You know, they're our human capital, and they're our greatest asset, they truly are. And without them and their dedication, we wouldn't have gotten through the pandemic as well as we actually did. So, you know, I salute them, I admire them, I respect them, I absolutely love them. And, it's our responsibility to make sure that they have the ability to be their best every day. And that's on us. You know, one thing I find really interesting, the pandemic really propelled so many issues so quickly, fast forward. Telehealth was one, you know, telehealth was kind of this Sleeping little anomaly that not a lot of people are doing and then now it's so much more in the forefront. And You were saying you're late to the table. No, not really I mean mental health is now certainly realizing how physical health care and all of those elements make whole person care. And so it's nice to hear it from a public health perspective as well. But, you know, what do you see as a priority focus over the next few years? What are some trends that are happening in this space? Do you have any projections about where things might be headed? You know, you talk about telehealth. I mean, we're really focused on data modernization now. I mean we have to be in it. We've got to be interoperable. Right. And we're not, you know, so we have all these different silos of systems, we can't even talk to each other. We got a wonderful grant from the CDC, a public health infrastructure grant and part of that is to modernize our data platforms our data capacity and capability, but it can't just be with us. We have to intersect all these different systems and it takes funding to do that, but I think we're starting to climb that mountain in the workforce. We lost so many professionals during the pandemic. So part of that grant was to actually attract and attain our brand new public health workforce we need to provide the tools for our staff to be successful, help them grow professionally. And it really help them understand what public health truly is. So, you know we use old systems and antiquated systems and everything's got to be stepped up. We've got to improve our ability to communicate, our ability to engage, and it takes funding to do that, but it also takes, the data systems that will help us get there. So I see data modernization is number one, our workforce as number two and then really acknowledge having the ability to intersect with organizations like, for example My Health, which is a health information exchange, which has tremendous data and data capacity. We don't have to be the lone data aggregator in this county. So identifying those other partners who also possess these amazing influences that we can work with and understand that, you know, it is a system, it's not just us. So when I look at Tulsa or any other community The health department needs to help assure that these outcomes occur, but of course you open your toolbox, and the toolbox is community partners, community agencies. There's probably not a lot of things that you say, well, we do that ourselves, but you've got a, sort of, align and organize all the other Entities and partners. What is the hardest part? And what is the part that is, you know, gives you the most optimism about getting a community organized around things while knowing that Our organization has our strategic priorities and this organization has that. How do you weave that all together knowing that not all priorities are aligned even if they're at least somewhat harmonious? I learned that early in Tulsa. Just pick up the phone. I was told when I got here that How analog of you. Yeah. You know, I mean, when I moved here, I was told I could never get the health system in the same room together. I could never get OU and OSU in the same room together. You know, when you're new and you're going through the honeymoon period, just pick up the phone. And it's amazing who comes to the table. And we acknowledge that everyone's got their goals and objectives, but the goals and objectives are, not really what's their bottom line, but the community's bottom line of improving health, both physical health and mental health. And I'll give you an example. Back when the Affordable Care Act Marketplace opened up. We were told that nobody would sign up for that in Oklahoma. Nobody would sign up in Tulsa. And so we put out a call to all of our community partners. We got everybody in room and we created this function we called the Marketplace Monday. Where we opened up four sites across Tulsa County. We signed up 800 people that day for health care, health insurance. Many of them had never had health insurance before. And the stigma just behind health insurance was amazing. I saw a gentleman who walked up, had never had health insurance in his life. There were TV cameras outside because it was a media event. And he put his shirt over his face. Because he didn't want to be recognized. And I talked to him afterwards. He's ashamed both of, I think accessing the ACA and not having his health insurance and he sure as hell, excuse me, he sure as heck didn't want to, you can say hell here, himself on TV. So. You know, there's so much stigma that we've got to get past, and we have stigma around health insurance. Imagine the stigma around seeking mental health services. Well, exactly. That was just going to go there, the stigma. And, you know, connecting mental health and physical health, I think, is a really key component of breaking down that stigma. But how do you feel public education about that needs to be propelled in Tulsa? You know, we work very closely with many school systems here. Matter of fact we have a school health education program in the health department, and we 67, 000 students just last year. So education is huge. And it starts with that. It starts with health literacy. Both mental health and physical health literacy. Because people, for example, when we signed up people for health insurance, they never had it. They never had co pays. They never had insurance premiums. They didn't understand how to get their scripts. So health literacy is huge, education is a big part of that. And, you know, we always say that education is a great equalizer. Well, we're finding out that even if you're educated, there's still structural and systemic barriers to achieving the highest level quality of life and achieving your greatest possibility. But it starts with education. With education, we can break down those barriers, but we've got to get everyone to see the problem. And that for us, I think that's the biggest issue because there's different interpretations of what the goals and vectors should be, there are different interpretations of what the issues truly are. And we've got to come together. At least with health department I think we're considered a safe partner. We can convene groups and people aren't afraid to come and talk to us That was, I think our biggest asset during pandemic was that we were able to really be part of this great partnership. And we responded as a whole and, thank goodness for all of our partners because we wouldn't have made it through without everybody engaging and doing their best to serve. So the health department, everything I have heard about you coming in, both you personally and the health department is, it's amazing the amount of trust that you were able to maintain in such a politicized and anxiety provoking period like the pandemic. The health department, I think, retains so much of that trusted partner, which allows it to be a center table for so many of the important conversations. I saw the same thing in Missouri during that time in a different way. But again, the health department being that trusted center, but it's such a flash pan where there is no topic anymore that isn't politicized, right? There's nothing. Mental health, health care. You know, if I came to you and said nice day outside, I'm sure that would be a very controversial statement to some. And so, how do you now experience the day to day? Is it as politicized as it was? Have the waters receded a little bit? And how do you maintain that trusted partner or trusted convener status? Within a world in which there's no such thing as a safe statement. You know, I I think the temperature has ramped down a little bit But you're right Adam and being honest everything's political these days, especially we're Coming up on I think a pretty divisive election year and we're aware of that and you know I don't pay a whole lot of attention to that, to be perfectly honest. We have our mission and our vision, and we've gotta bring our best every day to serve. So, you know, we hope we maintain the trust that I think we built during the pandemic, but we work every day to do what we say we're gonna do. That's how we can keep trust. If we're not sincere. And we don't actually do what we say we're going to do, then, people will walk away. And nobody can afford to have the system fragmented like that. So, I don't worry about the politics. People have their thoughts and they're welcome to them. We all have them. But, we're here to do a very specific thing and do it in collaboration with great community partners. And we don't let anything get in front of us. So, as it relates to mental health, Dee, again, the priorities from the strategic plan from 2023, can you read those back to me? Priority number one was stress and mental health. So when you look at that and you say, okay, reducing stress and increasing mental health, is that the basic idea of the strategic priority. You know, it really is. And so we're learning how to do that with all of our great partners because we don't actually do that work and we don't work in that space. But we have great partners who do. And so if we can convince them to let us be a part of what they do and who they are, it not only helps us learn, but it helps us position ourselves that we can bring assets to the table and can bring influence. And hopefully be a part of the solution as opposed to being ignorant of it, which is for us, I think, our biggest failure in the past. So what are the biggest things in that, you know, so again, you set the priority, which I think is a good priority, and that's a reflection of community sensitivities and preferences. But whether it is an agency like Family and Children's or whether it's just a citizen or a foundation What are the ways that you see are most important, but maybe not most obvious that we step in and help? You know and that's a really good question. We already talked about the stigma a little bit and and I think you make it really comfortable for people to step up and step into the issue, but You know, we don't have a true mental health system here in Oklahoma. And we don't have enough mental health providers enough primary care providers. So, you know, Oklahoma, we know, has a lot of needs. And I think we have to be honest about that. And not only address the issues, but address the foundational issues. if we don't have providers, how can we serve our public. So, you know, we have to do something to get providers here, to attract them, to keep them, to pay them. and I think that takes the whole, it takes the entire state, takes the legislature, takes the governor, takes all of our elected officials. Because, you know, we're all serving the same jurisdictions, the same communities, and if we don't provide the resources, we're not gonna have a system. And we know that without a system, Whether it be fiscal health, mental health, public health, whatever, there's too many holes and people fall through the cracks. And they deserve better. How will you know,, from your position, you've got that strategic priority? How will you know when we collectively are making progress on that? So we're working with our partners now to actually create a data dashboard that we can measure our priorities our goals and objectives within those priorities To see if we are actually being impactful and more importantly to evaluate what we're doing you know, we try to evaluate everything we do because If we're not meeting our goals and objectives, we need to modify, we need to change direction and pivot. We monitor our data very closely. So we're in the process of building that dashboard so we can really see what are we doing, how well are we doing it, how well are we engaging our partners, and are we being impactful or are we not? And do we need to pivot or do we just keep going? And so it's just, being aware and serious about the data of people. And acknowledging that and following that, but constructing the right dashboard and aggregating the right data. And that's where we need help, like, from partners like you, Adam, because, you know, it's not our area of expertise. But we go to people like you and ask, what is the data that we should be monitoring, should be collecting, and should be evaluating, and that's Really we're at right now. So Tulsa is so unique and I'm still learning so much about it The ways in which You've got a city and a county very overlaid on to each other but then you also have so many tribes that are here and you have so many people groups and it to me is just full of energy and dynamic opportunity, but as a health department with all these overlays How do you work with all of these different entities? How does the health department weave into all of that that goes beyond the foundations and the agencies to Just all the different people in one area, you know And we recognize that everybody has different goals and objectives But the end point is really the same and that's to help people reach their greatest possibility. So we connect where we can help them reach that and we connect where they can help us reach our goals there, too because You know, we have great relationships with the tribes. We have, great relationships with the various non profits and healthcare systems who, by the way, during pandemic, the healthcare systems were the heroes here, bottom line, and we wouldn't have gotten anywhere without them. So, you know, it's knowing your partners, but also knowing how you can help them reach their goals as well. We can't keep going into these conversations. Asking for things. We have to give back as well. And so we try and find that common ground where we're mutually beneficial and we're, not only asking, but we're giving as well. And I think if we can do that and help everyone achieve their goals, we can create that tapestry of partnerships that is seamless. And you're right, Tulsa is so cool. It's got great energy and it's got everything that we love to do, what my wife and I love to do here. So it's a community worth fighting for. And I think we have people who love this city, love this county, and want to be part of the solution. And it doesn't always have to be organizations, it can be individuals. I mean, like minded people, activists, who are really active in improving community standards. And we're learning that, you know, we don't just go to our partners. We also have got to meet people where they are. And we're figuring out from the mental health perspective, how do we meet people in their neighborhoods where they're at so that access isn't an issue and they can feel connected. Because I think once people feel connected, it's the first step towards reaching their greatest possibility. Wow, that's good stuff. It is. You talked a little bit about local trends earlier. The pandemic, like you said, was something we never expected to happen. Is there anything on the horizon? I know we're in the middle of this opioid epidemic. We have some issues with that, which is very much of a physical and a mental health connection. Do you see any other trends that we should be just keeping our eye on that may blow up? Well, you're absolutely right about the opioid issue and we are looking at solutions to that, and at least funding to, because there's not enough substance abuse providers here as well. And so if you talk about all these issues, way too much comes back to a provider ratio issue. and that's, I think, unless we start lowering that provider ratio number, and have more providers per capita, we're still going to continue to be circling the drain and spinning our wheels, which we can't. And I have no idea what issues are for us that are non issues, but seem to be political issues. Right. And we'll see what comes down the pike. Cause I'm always surprised about what people consider issues that for us, they truly are not. And, you know, we talk about, equality. I mean everybody should have the ability. to live, work, and play in the same area and have the ability to have the same, life expectancy, you know, and people are afraid to talk about equality and equity and health disparity. And we have to talk about these things, because it's a reality. And if we don't, how are we going to solve these problems? So, it's identifying the issues first and standing up and calling it out and not letting, I think elected officials who have other goals and objectives stop us from doing that. So, you know, we've got to work with our elected officials. For example, all the elected officials in Tulsa County during pandemic were wonderful to work with, you know, and we wouldn't have also been so successful. Our, Tulsa mayor who, you know, was in an election here and followed the science and God bless him, you know, so we have a lot of courageous, elected officials here as well. They help us also identify these issues, but. We've got to do the hard stuff and we have talked about the hard stuff and right now the hard stuff is all around health disparity, equality, racism, those social determinants of health that really are impacting people across the spectrum and we have to call it and say that's an issue and we're seeing more and more of these social determinants that are impacting health on a broad, spectrum and if we don't start identifying it and coming together around it. These, social determinants are never gonna go away, right? And everybody deserves, regardless of where they're born in Tulsa County, they deserve equal opportunity to reach their greatest possibilities in life. And we have to identify those determinants that prevent that. So I'm gonna step into it, and you don't have to follow me here, but, I'm gonna step into it and maybe regret it later. But, you know. I think it's so important that mental health stays as non political as possible because right now, Republicans, Democrats, whole spectrum, everybody agrees on mental health. But I've seen in recent years, especially as election cycles come around that as the rhetoric ramps up, it gets harder and harder to stay out of it and keep it depoliticized, even when you know if you step into it, you speak up too much, it could affect funding, it could affect so many other things. And yet, there are some areas where there is so much science around the importance of equity and the importance of if they don't trust you, they won't come in to get care. I don't even know the answer, but I think it is a really important thing that in the interest of staying apolitical, we don't fail to speak up on things that really matter where the science of well being is in, we've gotta Speak up, but it does create quite a tightrope. I know for mental health But I would expect for the health department as well and how you Stay out of the political waters while still speaking up for the things where there's the science there and there's the outcomes there And we have to speak for people's well being, You're right and it's not easy And it's something I think that we navigated as well as we possibly could during pandemic because it was our goal to run a public health response And not get misdirected. You're absolutely right. Sometimes when things become political, we know it's very difficult, but you can't step back from that and you've got to step into it. I think we did that during the pandemic and it cost us in some, in some cost you? What are some ways it cost you? Well, you know, there was some legislation early on and now we're seeing all over the country. We're seeing legislation that, for example, will prevent us from, having mask mandates or vaccine mandates. And we're seeing all these public health laws now, or anti public health laws that are coming to legislatures all across the country. So when I talk about stepping into them, that's everywhere. It's not just in Oklahoma. And, you know, I would love it if we could talk to elected officials in a way where we're, doing our best. In these extreme circumstances, would I ever want to do a mask mandate again? No. You know, because adults are adults and they should make their own decisions, but children can't. So there's so many variables that go into some of these decisions that we made during pandemic that, are costing us now. And, you know, I don't want to see regulations or laws come out that prevent us from doing the jobs that we need to do, especially in times of crisis. So, we're actually nationally, we're monitoring all like the anti public health legislation that's going on in states all over the country, because we know eventually we're going to have to step up into that. And as it relates to health care and mental health, I feel like so many of these things, the takeaways are not about whether we were right or wrong on some things. We were wrong on some things. Oh yeah. The science wasn't in and we were trying to get it as fast as we could. Oh yeah. And yet, the takeaway too often is not, well, we had good science, but that science as it got better, then we got better. I feel like so often the takeaway is We'll see now you can't trust science and so then that sort of pulls us back to a direction where we can't actually trust a health department or a mental health professional or others. with information when really that scientific process is supposed to constantly give us new information so we can pivot more. And I think we have to do a better job of communicating just that because we knew during the pandemic it changed almost every day. So our messaging changed every day so I could understand why everybody was confused. Heck, we were confused. What new thing are we going to learn today? And to stand up and have some credibility and constantly saying, well, I was wrong yesterday. Here's the news, the news information today. Of course, that's created issues. And I can understand why people wouldn't trust that. You know, but But you're absolutely right. That's what science is and science changes. It's progressive and so it goes in multiple directions all at once and We have to learn how to really communicate that in a more effective way I think those are things that that we're working on doing things like this I think it really helps but we've got to get people to trust science and scientists aren't perfect, human beings make mistakes and we have to acknowledge that as well because we acknowledge when we were wrong But we were wrong based on the science of that day, and communicating that is just difficult. So I think most people do understand that. Even when I talked to a lot of lawmakers, there's always pressure that lawmakers on both sides feel to stay in line with a, party stance or a perceived party stance, and yet when I talked to a lot of them individually, I think most of the people I talk to understand these things. And I wish I would take my own memo more as a parent, but All the research says the parents who can say I was wrong to their kids generate more credibility and trust with them than the ones who are never wrong. And I think that the general public does tend to understand those things, but I think it's a constant challenge to navigate that when there's so many things trying to chip away at that credibility. You know, it is. And so we just focus on trying to do the right thing based on the information we have and saying so. You know, and also acknowledging that this might be different in the future, but here's what we know today and That's what we try to do during pandemic and you're right I mean many lawmakers understood that and I appreciate their support and they're constrained by party politics and we understand that as well And that's just the nature of the beast. But we can work within that because mental health public health It's a political it truly is it's serving people We talk about infectious disease, they don't care what political party you're in, so we don't care either. You know, we want to find, ways to communicate, ways to partner. For example, the state health commissioner Keith Reed, we have a great relationship. with the state health department and with Keith. And we worked very hard to build that relationship. And, he's in a difficult position because he's a political appointee. But he does a tremendous job of doing public health in Oklahoma. And that's all we're trying to do here in Tulsa County. You know, and at the end of the day, it's, we all want the same thing. We want a great quality of life, great physical health, great mental health, those types of things. So, getting past the barriers of, I was wrong yesterday, or I was wrong today, or I don't like your political agenda. I think we all feel the same, that we want a good quality of life here in Tulsa. What are you most optimistic about when you look forward, especially on the mental health side, you say these are the things I think we will either improve on or already improving on the fastest? You know, I think just the attention to mental health issues that you know, we didn't have Three, four, five years ago, you know, it's in the forefront now, because the pandemic affected everybody and affect people in different ways, but it really brought mental health to the forefront. Like I've never seen it before. And so it's an opportunity for mental health, I think, to really be in their strongest setting. and more foundational than they've ever been. So I'm excited about those possibilities and the recognition that this is a community need and part of quality of life. I've heard lawmakers say that the government has responsibility for quality of life and I love it. When I hear that, you know, and it's acknowledgement that that's why they're there to serve and, and to know now that we can talk about mental health issues and what it does and how we can actually have solutions and create a system and resources to help people. We didn't have those conversations three, four, five years ago. We're having them now. and I'm sure it's a little late in the game, but hey, we're getting started. And I think it's going to take us to a great place that we've never been before. So you started in the health department work in the early 80s when you were 13. Yeah. And now, you've seen it transform a lot. You described earlier the ways in which it's changing. You know, in another 20 years when you're still in the field. What do you predict? Where are we sailing as far as how health departments interact within the community and what, what will be next and how it all works? When you talk to citizens or residents of communities, and you ask them what's really important in their community and they, always say things like police and fire and health systems. 20 years, they're going to say public health. And they're going to say mental health, and which they don't say today, but that's going to change because of the work we're doing, the fact that we're visible, and we're doing it collectively with all of our partners, and people I think will acknowledge that they need mental health and public health services in their life every day, and I think we'll do a better job of, Convincing people how we touch them every day, even when they don't see us. Because we provide services that affect the community as a whole. And they might not see us doing it, but because we're doing it, they're safe. And, now we add mental health to that mix, people aren't afraid of walking in the door. And it doesn't matter what neighbor thinks. And so that, I think for us, that's gonna be the biggest change. This is almost a philosophical, it's, it's paradigm shift where, you know, we are now out in the forefront and citizens recognize that they need services from organizations like ours and they welcome it. So, Hopefully it won't take 20 years, but I think that's the direction we hope to go. I love that vision, and I so appreciate everything about this. I know we didn't get to some of the fun stuff, and I wonder if we get to some, some, uh, this was all fun, but, uh, some stuff about, some stuff about Bruce, it's time to grill Bruce. Yeah, so, we've talked a lot about physical health, mental health, how they're connected. So. Um, on the weekends, how do you take care of your own physical and mental health? What do you do for fun? You know, my, my mental health time is spent on my bike, um, or in the pool. I'm right there with you. Yeah, or in the pool swimming. I used to be an Ironman until my body got too rusty. So now I, I can't run anymore, but I, I still swim and bike and I'm on the Tulsa Masters swim team and I bike and, you know, and I go to biking events. Like I love Tulsa Cuff. My favorite event of the year is Tulsa Tough. I bike in it. What is Tulsa Tough? It's, a three day bike extravaganza. Oh, Adam, we'll have to go. Oh, you'll love it, Adam. You will love it. I will be glad to watch that. Where, where pros come in and just normal people like me just go ride. And pros come in and do, do crits and, and we have road races, and it's just an amazing three day event, and it's become huge, we have people from all over the country coming here, and all over the world as well, and you'll, you'll love it when you see it. It gets a little crazy at night on Sunday, but it, talk about stress reliever, you know. Yeah, exactly. But my wife Denise, she, she bikes as well, so she'll bike with me, and she doesn't mind if I, you know, leave her and I'll come back, you know, so. That's what my husband does. Yeah, she, I, I meet her back in the car. You know. It's like, just come back and loop me. But, but, you know, it just, it's things that, that we do together, and it relieves my stress. You can get those endorphins going. Absolutely. And you don't, you don't feel the stress, and that's what got me through the pandemic, and, you know, it's how I live my life, all my life, because I was a, um, athlete in college, and, I have always worked out and tried to stay in shape, and, and that continues to this day. Well, it's a true mark that physical health and mental health are connected and there's things that we can do every single day and what you're doing every single day is making a difference and I'm thrilled to know that all these partnerships are developing and that the stigmas are breaking down on both sides of the table. Yeah, thank you so much for joining. you and I and a few others have had lunch a few times and I realized early on in that first visit, that this is a conversation I wanted to have because I just think certainly you were the right person to be a celebrity during the pandemic because you didn't want to be. No. Never again. Never again. And I remember the look on your face when I said I wanted to talk about some of that here today. But I appreciate you coming in to have the conversation because I think the best people for these times are the people who would step in like you did and will, fight even when it costs you some of your sense of well being and your team's sense of well being. You sacrificed for us then. We appreciate that and we want to make sure that both as an agency and as a community we continue to lift you and your team up. Thank you for what you and your team are doing. And, we look forward to having you on here again. You know, I really appreciate that, Adam. And, once again, I was surrounded by great people and great partners and it was that collective response that made it all happen. So, you know, I hire smart people and I get out of the way. And hopefully, our partners are the same way they just let us do what we do. And so, collectively, we made it. And hopefully we can take that momentum and do great work in the future. Absolutely. And I'll see you on the bike trail. All right. I'll be there. Very good. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. If you found value in what you heard today, there are a few ways you can support and stay connected to us. First, be sure to hit that subscribe button whenever you're listening. Subscribing ensures that you never miss an episode, and it's completely free. Consider leaving us a review. Your reviews not only make our day, but they also help others discover the podcast and join our community. Share this episode with your friends, family, or anyone who might find it interesting Word of mouth is a powerful way to grow our podcast family, and we truly appreciate your support. We are always eager to hear your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions for future episodes. 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