From Incarceration to Inspiration

Prepare to be inspired by this episode – a personal success story about one woman’s path from incarceration to a thriving career in none other than the mental health industry. With the guidance and support of the FCS Women in Recovery diversion program and one employee in particular – who also takes part in this episode – our guest altered her life’s trajectory from one of drugs and crime to one of ambition and success. Join us for this motivating, candid conversation on OK State of Mind.

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Transcript

Chris: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to OK State of Mind, a podcast by Family & Children's Services based in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This podcast seeks to satisfy inquisitive minds eager to delve into the realm of mental health and overall wellbeing. Join us on a journey to gain insights shared by mental health experts, draw inspiration from remarkable stories of resilience forged by those who've navigated challenging paths and unveil the intricate science that underpins our thoughts and emotions, a sort of invisibilia, if you will.

Through these explorations, we aim to illuminate the captivating whys behind our cognitive and emotional selves, hopefully unraveling the complexities that shape our behaviors, feelings, and perspectives.

 Today on OK State of Mind, we're speaking with Lonnie Burns and Annie Wolfe. Lonnie joined the Women in Recovery program at Family & Children's [00:01:00] Services in 2018, and she's led the expansion of the Employment and Education Division there where she serves as director. She supports a team of specialists who work with individuals impacted by the criminal legal system to provide educational attainment, career development, and financial literacy.

Lonnie also serves as president elect of the Oklahoma Association of Adult and Continuing Education. She holds an undergraduate degree in Counseling and Master of Social Work degree, from the University of Oklahoma. 

Annie is a former participant in the Women in Recovery Program, and we're going to let her tell her own story about her experiences in WIR, her education, and her current career. It's a compelling story and one we know will be impactful.

Anniee, starting out today, do you mind telling us a little bit about how you came into contact with WIR back in 2012? 

Anniee: Yeah I came into contact with WIR, it was November of 2012 about the end of the year, and I [00:02:00] was 20 at the time. That's crazy. And I was facing charges due to a lot of drug use. A lot of domestic violence things with an ex boyfriend things like that. And so caught a whole bunch of charges. And it ranged from a lot of larceny charges , things like that. A lot of theft. And so, I think I had wrapped up about 12 felony charges and my dad's  I actually was going to go to drug court and got denied drug court based on didn't have any drug charges. So got denied drug court. And the attorney ended up finding out about Women in Recovery. And I didn't know if I was going to be able to get into it based on me not having any children because it was through Family & Children's Services and my age, things like that. And so ended up getting in. I think I was probably one of, one of the youngest participants at the time.

Chris: Oh wow.

Anniee: Yeah. So I got in in 2012, and my life was just at that, at that point in time, it was the end of the road. It was [00:03:00] either go to prison or continue using and being in that lifestyle and hurting my family, things like that. 

Chris: Yeah, that was something else I was wondering if you hadn't gone to WIR. You would have gone to prison , do you know for how long? 

Anniee: Mm hmm, yeah, I had signed a six to life blind plea. 

Chris: Oh, wow.

Anniee: Which, was kind of low compared to some of the other participants, but nonetheless, I didn't want to go to prison for six years. That was about the lowest I could have gotten.

Chris: And you exited WIR and came back, is that right? 

Anniee: Yeah, I got in November 2012 and then ended up using while I was in the program. I would not highly suggest that. Using, ended up going to jail for another two weeks. I was on a sanction. This was in April of 2013. So I was in the program for about six months.

Chris: Okay.

Anniee: I was just saving face a lot of the time saying what I needed to say to the therapist [00:04:00] or to, the case managers. I wasn't really engaged in the process. So went to jail in April ish, 2013 came back.

I actually got arrested April. 22nd. That's my clean date of 2013. So I got clean that day. 

So I came back after that two weeks and decided to just go all in and start engaging in the process of recovery. Go to the meetings, engage with my therapist and stuff. 

Chris: What was different between the two times? Why the second time did you say, I'm going to go all in to use your words? 

Anniee: I had made a phone call to my mom the day that I got arrested and I was sitting in group right at the very beginning of the day. I called my mom. And I'm going to cry. And I had a conversation with her and she was just like, why do you keep doing this? You know? And I had no answer for her, I don't know. And so when [00:05:00] I went to jail and sat there for another two weeks, I really had like, I don't know what you want to call it, a spiritual awakening of the sorts.

But I was just like, I cannot keep doing this ? I was done. I think I was 21 at the time. It's so long ago. I believe I was 21 at the time, but I knew I had so much more, to do with my life than just, of using and then going back to jail and using again. Cause every time I used, I went to jail. I mean my mugshot in 2012 was back to back to back to back. So. 

Chris: Having this epiphany or this realization, has that made it easier to remain clean? Has that impacted your ability to stay on top of it?

Anniee: Oh, for sure. Anytime I have a bad day , if I think of David L. Moss on any given day, thinking of that moment of , not wanting to return to that definitely has kept me staying clean. Not just that, but it's definitely that little snippet in my [00:06:00] life where I know that if I use again, that that's where I go. I mean, my track record literally shows every time I use, I go to David L. Moss.

Chris: Yeah.

Anniee: I, have to go to court, and I'm so done.

Chris: Yeah.

Anniee: You know, I just can't do that. 

Chris: And David L. Moss being the jail here in Tulsa.

Anniee: Yeah.

Chris: When you were going through WIR, what else was going on in your life? Good or bad, what was your life like at that time? 

Anniee: Honestly, not a whole lot. When I came to Women Recovery, I was like a fresh slate. The, guy was gone that I had been running around with. He went to prison, on the same charges of what I had he was gone.

And so once I started getting into the process of Women in Recovery, going to Narcotics Anonymous meetings, getting in to that groove, life just started happening again real fast. And I was like, Oh my God, there's so much to do now. When I was attending meetings [00:07:00] I would go to WIR 8 to 5 p. m. every day and then leave there and walk over to a meeting or I would get on the bus and go to a Narcotics Anonymous meeting. And then I would get home by 9 p. m., it was our curfew. And at that time I just was settling into that. And I was trying to think of when I started going to school. It was fairly pretty early into my recovery.

 My stepfather always pushed to do well in life, you've got to get a college degree It was just always ingrained in me and I knew that's what I wanted to do. I didn't know what in but I just knew i'm gonna get a degree and go from there. And actually Roxanne was a big factor in that the lady who arrested me that day. I knew that she had a degree at Northeastern State University Through counseling and I was like that sounds pretty interesting Though I'd already been in therapy and stuff like that, so that's what kick started the idea.

Chris: And did you have to wait until you graduated from WIR before you could [00:08:00] begin going to school?

Anniee: They offered a few actual, TCC courses, and I got to take a few, but they weren't, , degree related. They were unrelated to counseling. 

Chris: Core type classes?

Anniee: Yeah. Yeah.

Chris: Okay. And how long were you in WIR? How long were you in the program?

Anniee: Twenty three months or twenty four months. I think I was hitting the two year mark. 

Chris: So you were able to take some classes while you were at WIR. What did that ultimately lead into, even beyond WIR, as far as your education and maybe even your career path too? 

Anniee: Yeah, I 

backtracking, I had taken a few classes at TCC while I was in my addiction and could never follow through of course with anything. So I think getting into WIR and re starting some classes was really like , okay, I can get back into the groove of this, of being in school, but with going to the meetings, being at WIR. attending school. I kind of did a few classes and then stopped while I was at WIR. I ended up graduating in October of [00:09:00] 2014. So right under two years I was there. And then decided once I left there, I re enrolled in school. I believe January of 2015 was my first, Back into TCC, the community college, and I took two classes, and that was the kickstart of everything.

And I think, I believe I actually started Chili's then. Started serving at Chili's, right? Soon after I graduated. While I was in WIR, I worked at Macy's and things like that. And, sorry, my, the timeline may be off on this, but worked at a few other jobs . But it was really about in 2015 is whenever I started to do serving full time.

And then I started school full time and ended up getting my associate's degree at TCC, I believe May of [00:10:00] 2016. So I did that and then right after that, I started undergraduate work. I ended up transferring over to NSU Broken Arrow and started a degree in psychology because I had the associates in psychology and ended up doing that.

And I was at Chili's the whole time, I believe. Chili head for life. So and then, did that. I was there for six, seven years, but ended up getting into graduate school and I had to actually go sit in front of a board to get approved to go to NSU at one point for graduate school because of my background.

When I graduated from WIR, I didn't get everything expunged. So it's still sitting there. And so through the school, you have to go through this extensive process in front of the board basically. And how is your life different? I had to write letters and things like that.

So ended up doing that and got approved to be in graduate school and to pursue my education to get a master's [00:11:00] degree in counseling. Because really the kickstart of all of that was when I was in WIR going to the extensive therapy and I just felt comfortable doing it like talking about it, everybody likes to talk about themselves. I'm not going to lie, to some extent. But I just knew that I related to people well. And so I was like, I might as well just make a career of this. And I enjoyed it while I was at WIR, once I really plugged in.

Chris: Sounds like a pretty natural move.

Anniee: Yeah. So that was kind of the kickstart of it. And my dad also had a psychology degree. So I was just trying to take after him for a little while. 

Chris: Can you tell us a little bit about where you're at now in your career and how you got there? What happened along the way? 

Anniee: Yeah. So right around the time I had been working at Chili's and it was so crazy when Lani reached out to me because I was already having, , feelings of, I gotta do something different, I'm in graduate school. Chili's, I mean, it's just so strenuous on all the weekends. Friday, Saturday, [00:12:00] Sunday, you know, twelve hour days, working nights, not being at home, stuff like that. And so when I got the phone call it was almost like the perfect timing to switch gears on my career or really kind of kickstart a career. And so that's when Lani reached out and I was just blown away. I was like, that is crazy that they would think of me. This is George Kaiser. This is huge. And I was just tripping out. And I was like, absolutely I will go interview cause I've been wanting an eight to five job, so it was honestly just such good timing for me.

Chris: And how long were you there? 

Anniee: I started February, 2019 and I stayed until January of 2020.

Chris: Where are you now? What are you doing? 

Anniee: I got my degree in my master's in counseling and. December of 2020. So about, end of that year, ended up taking a little break, working with my husband with his small business, just kind of figuring out , am I really going to go into this field [00:13:00] of work? Do I really want to do this? COVID had just happened during graduate school and it was just a really hard time for everyone. And so ended up, taking some time off three, almost three years off and last year, so June of 2023, ended up making a decision that I really wanted to use this degree . And so ended up taking my licensure exam in October of last year and passed it. And so I started work at Parkside hospital psychiatric and clinic and started that January of this year. So I'm three months in and doing therapy. You know, I work with young teens from ages 13 to 17 and which is crazy cause I don't have kids of my own, but I absolutely love kids.

Chris: Yeah, that's awesome. Lani, we've talked I haven't talked to you much and , Annieee has referenced you a couple of times. And we introduced you a little bit at the [00:14:00] beginning, but can you tell us from a practical standpoint what your role is at WIR? What's your day to day like?

Lani: Sure. So I have the pleasure of serving as the Director of Employment and Education and really just have a phenomenal team who has a passion for empowering others and providing tools and, you know doing research, making connections within the community to really allow them to grow and thrive. And honestly, a huge part of it starts with what do they even want to do?

So I think that that's probably one of the favorite things we get to help uncover is just who really am I and what do I actually want to do? 

Chris: You've been here with me listening to Anniee's story, which is incredibly inspiring. Do you hear stories similar to what Anniee has told us?

Lani: I would say I've been sitting here getting teary at Anniee's story for sure. Both in moments of just in the moments of not just [00:15:00] resilience that you have displayed, but also in these incredibly proud moments of hearing that you are now on the other side of the table as a clinician directly serving as a therapist to these teenagers.

There are lots of other Anniees just not exactly like Anniee. So it is truly the best part of my job is the women that we get to work with where some of the most intelligent and resilient and truly diverse group that often has just never had a moment of somebody believing in them. Or maybe even them believing in themselves.

And so what my team gets to do on a day to day basis is meet with women where they're at now. And that may be coming in for the third that we serve that comes in without a high school diploma where we're going to work on getting their GED while they're in our program. Or it could [00:16:00] be that they're professional and we're in the business career and now feel like those options are over for them because of their substance use that maybe it started later on in life.

And so. We want to meet them where they are. This comes with lots of testing and assessments comes with building rapport though, to just one on one and learning what drives Anniee. First of all, uncovering who she is from our perspective too. Cause I think what she described earlier as far as that first kind of six months and where she was doing and saying what she thought we would want to hear, that is not uncommon.

I think it's a survival tactic too. Our average age is mid thirties in Women in Recovery and so you have individuals who have had to survive some really hard things and have learned how to navigate by doing and saying what they think the other person wants to hear. That's often the case in domestic violence relationships as, as Anniee disclosed, but it can also be the [00:17:00] case whenever you're maybe trying to get out of a specific charge and you're trying to share what you think someone wants to hear.

So we have to kind of get down to what is real if they will allow us. And that is completely up to the individual, but then it gets to the fun stuff. It gets to, What's your favorite color? Do you even know what it is? What, what job would you actually enjoy? And so we get to uncover things through volunteer opportunities in the community where I think one of my favorites is whenever I might have a woman who says, I really want to work with animals.

 That has been my life's goal. I want to work with animals. And so okay, so we'll go set them up for a day to volunteer at the animal shelter, and notoriously, they will come back and say, I don't want to work with animals anymore. It was really sad and it smelled really bad. And I, I, I think maybe I just need a pet at some point in my life.

[00:18:00] And so even sometimes too, figuring out what you think something is and what the reality of that job is. So, so it can be a really fun exploratory opportunity. And then we also use many different assessments, as I referenced earlier, things that for many people they might've done in middle school or junior high or high school, where it's the career interests and, you know, it's their evidence based surveys, but they give us an idea of really not only what someone might be good at, but what's going to bring them joy. And I think that's something that I'm seeing as, as Anniee has been sharing her story, is that she found what brings her joy. She found that thing that really she could be passionate about and move forward with and when we're at our best we're helping individuals uncover that for themselves.

Chris: As I was listening to Anniee share about her challenges and her successes, both in education and in her career, it made me wonder about [00:19:00] the educational and vocational landscape, especially for women who have been incarcerated. Are you able to speak to that? 

Lani: So I know Anniee mentioned this earlier that her time in the program started over 10 years ago now. And obviously not only has a lot changed with Anniee, but a lot has changed around the way that we do employment and education in Women in Recovery. So we really wanted to take the lessons we've learned from so many of our graduates along the way and use that as a guiding kind of principle for where do we take education and employment next.

And so we've really moved into this strategic sector where we look at the research. We're looking at labor data for all the different counties that we're in right now to figure out what are the needs of those communities from a labor standpoint. What types of wages are we talking about? And are these true living wages for the women that we serve?

We also then took that into [00:20:00] account with what types of education can someone do while they're in Women in Recovery? A four year bachelor's degree is not going to happen while they're in the program, but are there educational opportunities that we can do where they can leave with a certification that would drastically increase their wages and also be aligned with the in demand occupations for our area?

So we have been so fortunate to partner with Central Tech, Tulsa Tech, OSU Tulsa, OSU IT. I'm sure I'm going to leave someone off of this list. But to make very specific career pathways for our women. So it started with women in welding which we have a cohort going on again right now, I think we're on cohort number four for women in welding.

We also have CNC machinists, we have CDL or commercial driver's license to do driving trucks. We also have a peer recovery support specialist training where we actually worked with the state to kind of craft a training to really help [00:21:00] someone transition to serving others with their lived experience in recovery.

And then we also have fiber optic technician training. That's been the newest one to really align with a broadband expansion across our state. So, tail end of that we start with if you're coming in for the third who don't have their high school equivalency, then we're going to dive right into basic education classes at Women in Recovery.

Let me be clear. There is nothing basic about basic education. I couldn't sit here today and do the quadratic equation or slope of the line without at least a pretty substantial review. And yet you have to know both of those things to pass the math portion of the GED. So we take our women at 8 15 in the morning five days a week, and they're going into classes.

And those classes are based off of where their level of education left off. And then also how long ago was that? Right. So we do some testing to help us kind of get a baseline. But this may be [00:22:00] a 35 year old woman who went to school through 10th grade. This may be a 52 year old woman who dropped out in fifth grade.

And so we have these very wide levels of learning that we need to address. And we have incredible special ed teachers and volunteers for whom we could not do this program without they have been running our GED program for many, many years. And so all of them together really wrap around and try to meet that woman exactly where she is today and get her where she needs to be to pass those exams and get her a GED.

And then Finally, on this is those employment partnerships that we talked about, those relationships with the different businesses, really finding not just businesses that are already willing to hire individuals with criminal legal involvement, but how do we, like I said earlier, help educate, really open doors into new career pathways and align it with those [00:23:00] occupations that we shared earlier that we've created those career pathways on.

Because Anniee's story earlier of domestic violence or of substance use, those are unfortunately narratives that we hear every day of Women in Recovery. And if I can do one thing, it is making sure that a woman never feels like she has to go back to a relationship because it was a two income household and at least it gave her a roof over her head.

I think none of us are naive today to the inflation that has gone on to prices that are far exceeding our current wage increases. And so what might have been a living wage a few years ago, where we were excited about a 15 an hour job today is how in the world can someone live on 15 an hour?

Chris: Right. 

Lani: And so if we are, getting it right, then we're making it to where Anniee or many of our women who are moms of [00:24:00] children can afford to be self sufficient on their own and therefore get to invite people into their lives because it's the right person to invite in, not because I can't afford to to not have this additional income for our household.

Chris: I was going to ask you, what is it about WIR that makes stories like Anniee's possible, but I think you really just answered it. It makes me think of Walden by Henry David Thoreau where he talks about, life is getting your feet down through the mud and muck and actually getting to the you know, the rock, the thing that is real and that's, that's what it's all about.

Lani: I think the one thing I would add onto that is that what makes WIR different or what allows for that at we're is that it's not just WIR we are so fortunate to have schools that partner with us, to have businesses that partner with us, to have incredible volunteers who are all a part of this program, a part of this [00:25:00] community, this healthy community, where we can create opportunities for learning, for employment advancement, open doors at companies that maybe previously had not considered hiring someone whose background might be similar to Anniee's where they have a checkbox on the application that automatically filters out if somebody has a resume and therefore would never even get to meet the incredible person that I have sitting next to me today.

And so whenever we can help HR departments or company executives change their mindset of what someone in addiction or someone in recovery actually looks like. It's incredible because usually within a few months they'll come back and say, Can you send me some more Anniee's? I mean, this is the best employee I've ever had, or this person is the most loyal employee, the most dedicated, you know, there's doing these things and I don't want to sugar coat it. Are there ever times whenever someone's going to struggle? Well, of [00:26:00] course. But the best part is then they have women in recovery on the back end where we are always there. So. Anniee is still involved in we're to this day because we are able to have our continuing care program. She's able to come and volunteer.

That is her primary way that she gives back is that she actually spends time with our women who are in the program now. But there's still that connection in that healthy support system that is there for them. And we try to do that same thing for our partners too. So whether that's an employment partner who's worried because maybe somebody has shown up late a couple of times recently and that's not like them being able to give us a call.

And we are able to wrap around that individual and find out, Oh, your car broke down. Well, let's see what resources we can find to help make sure that that's no longer a barrier for you being able to get to work, catching it before it becomes the spiral leading to additional either barriers or negative decisions because addiction [00:27:00] is a lifelong disease.

It is going to be something that sometimes it's a minute to minute decision. Sometimes it's a daily decision. Sometimes you may not have cravings or thoughts of use for long periods of time, but the truth is it can catch you off guard if you're not always thinking of. How do I prepare myself? How do I have those coping strategies, surrounding myself with safe people, safe places. We always talk about people, places, and things, but I think that that's been something that Anniee has done that has really been instrumental in her longterm recovery is that she is still heavily involved in the recovery community and also actively gives back.

That's awesome. Well, we ask all of our guests this question as we conclude, and I'm going to ask both of you the same question and I, and just based on what we've discussed so far, I'm pretty excited about your, your responses. Lani, we'll start with you. In light of all this discussion, what gives you [00:28:00] hope?

I think in this moment, what gives me hope is Anniee. What keeps you going in an industry where sometimes you see really hard things are the women like Anniee, that when you're having that day that maybe it was a little tough, you learned about somebody who's not doing so well, or you you had a death in the community, whatever those are, it's, The Anniee's that you can pull out as memories of this is the alternative though.

This is somebody who's doing incredible things right now. And so today what gives me hope is absolutely the person sitting next to me tomorrow. It might be a different person who's sharing their story, but it's absolutely the women who come through our program. 

Chris: Yeah. How about you, Anniee? What gives you hope?

Anniee: I was thinking about how I've gotten here with education, with my work, things like that. And Women in [00:29:00] Recovery, it's been so long since I've been graduated a long time since 2014. That's a long time, almost 10 years this year.

But, what gives me hope is people like Mimi. like Lani, like the Roxanne the ones that were the Debs. Those are the people that honestly have given me such hope because my life started going in a different direction when I was encountered with Women in Recovery.

And I haven't ever forgotten that in the past since I've left there almost 10 years ago. So I know that the people who just continue to help people that suffer with addiction. And then also what gives me hope is just looking forward to the future, you know, and knowing that I can, me, myself, I can help so many people with just my own experience and then staying plugged in enough to be able to share that with people.

So people who, who help people, addicts and stuff that give me a lot of hope that for someone the direction I was headed in, there was like [00:30:00] someone was there for me at that time that I needed it and there was people there that was like here's a different option. You don't have to go to prison, you know You can do something different with your life And honestly, I had no idea about recovery before coming to Women in Recovery I had no idea that I could stay clean and have a job and do these things.

I was 21 years old. I was a child. So Women in Recovery literally molded me into this person that I never thought I could be. My future gives me hope. The people who help addicts give me a lot of hope that people don't just give up on, people like, me. 

Chris: That's awesome. I got a little teary just sitting here listening to both of your responses to that question. So inspiring and your, your passion is inspiring and your optimism. And I think that there are people out there right now who are going to hear this and it's going to impact them.

I appreciate both of you being here today. [00:31:00] And maybe we can have you guys back again some other time. 

Lani: Sounds good. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Chris: Thanks for tuning in if you found value in what you heard today. There are a few ways you can support and stay connected to us First be sure to hit that subscribe button wherever you're listening to us. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode, and it's absolutely free. It also helps us continue bringing you quality content.

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We're always eager to hear your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions for future episodes. Visit okstateofmind.com for all of our episodes. [00:32:00] You can also email us at communications@fcsok.org with any episode ideas or questions. We'd love to connect with you. Thank you once again for accompanying us on the journey.

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