The Power of Protective and Compensatory Experiences

In this episode of "OK State of Mind," host Dee Harris is joined by Dr. Jennifer Hayes Grudeau and Dr. Amanda Sheffield Morris from Oklahoma State University, along with special guest Christine Marsh from Family & Children's Services.

Check our our previous conversation with Jennifer and Amanda in our episode titled "Moving Beyond Adverse Childhood Experiences: ACES and PACES."

This new conversation delves deeper into the critical role of protective and compensatory experiences (PACEs) as antidotes to adverse childhood experiences (ACEs). The guests discuss the profound impact of intergenerational trauma, the science behind resilience, and the importance of balanced parenting. They share insights from their books and research, emphasizing that it's never too late to build resilience and improve mental health through positive experiences. The episode underscores the transformative power of PACEs in fostering resilience and well-being in both children and adults.

You can hear more from Jennifer and Amanda on wholehearted.org or their website. 

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Transcript

Jennifer: 0:00

Kids who have this in their life do better than kids who don't. It's never too late. We've been saying that for a long time, but now we can say it legitimately because we have real data to support it, that what people do now matters.

Dee: 0:15

Welcome to Ok, State of Mind. I'm your host, Dee Harris, and I'm thrilled to welcome back to the mics, Dr. Jennifer Hayes Grudeau, and dr. Amanda Sheffield morris. These two were our guests a few months ago, talking about fostering resilience in a world of adversity. It's episode 15. I'm so excited to have them back to continue the conversation and go more into intergenerational trauma, how protective and compensatory experiences are an anecdote to adverse childhood experiences, and to introduce more about becoming a balanced parent. Jennifer and Amanda are both developmental scientists at Oklahoma State University. They've co authored the books Raising a Resilient Child and Adverse and Protective Childhood Experiences. They have a new series of videos on wholehearted. org and regularly share their insights at aces and paces dot com. So, with that, welcome Jennifer.

Jennifer: 1:07

Thank you.

Dee: 1:08

And Amanda.

Amanda: 1:08

Hi. Thank you.

Dee: 1:10

And we also have a special guest who will be the host with me, Christine Marsh, who runs Family and Children's Services Child Abuse and Trauma Services. So, welcome.

Christine: 1:17

Hi.

Dee: 1:18

We've talked before in a previous episode that we'll link in the bio, but, uh, we just had such a great time talking to you. We wanted to continue the conversation. I felt like we just scratched the surface. So, before we begin, for anyone that isn't familiar with some of the terms we're gonna be using, can you please tell us a little bit about what adverse childhood experiences are

Jennifer: 1:39

Sure. So adverse childhood experiences or ACEs as we say, refer to 10 negative things that happen fairly frequently in childhood. And we know about this because some researchers in California and at the Centers for Disease Control, about 25 years ago, kind of stumbled across some commonalities in patients who were experiencing specific problems. And so they systematically started asking questions about everything that pretty much can go wrong in a person's childhood in their family and boiled it down to ten, experiences that we call ACEs. So there are five of them that are what we would think of as abuse and neglect. And that would be, physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical neglect, and emotional neglect. And then on, it's good to use two hands because then you can say, Oh, on the one hand you have abuse and neglect, on the other hand you have what they call Disfunctional families, and this would include parents who have a mental illness, parents with an addiction or other substance abuse disorder, parents who are involved in the criminal system, have been in prison, parents who are violent with each other in the home, and divorce and separation. So, it turns out that these ten experiences, when you add them up, are the better predictor of both physical health problems and mental health problems than any other 10 questions ever designed. And in fact, when they were developing this measure, I've talked with, the developers, Rob Anda, who was at the CDC, and Vince Folletti, who was at Kaiser Permanente in California, both physicians. and Rob Anda said we tried to look for clusters and it turned out what was important was not how they clustered together, it was the accumulation, the accumulation of these things like stairs. Each one takes you higher on the risk ladder. So, they just added them up, and we might argue and say, you know, some of these seem a whole lot worse than others, but when you look at the large aggregate numbers of people, large populations, really what matters is the accumulation of stress that happens when you have different kinds of, negative experiences. So, we use it as kind of a shorthand, what's your ACE number? Well, if it's four, it turns out that's kind of a cutoff point for having maybe a doubled risk of heart disease or cancer. Not for any one person exactly, because it's not that kind of a measure for you or you or you, but in general, your risk goes up, it doubles for physical health problems. It goes up after four, about 11 fold for suicide. It goes up sevenfold for drug abuse problems. Rob Anda likes to say it's a crude but powerful and important measure.

Dee: 4:42

Yeah. I mean, I think so. It's like getting your blood pressure taken. It's like, Oh, I might have a problem. I really should pay a little more attention to this. Even though I think I'm fine, there's some underlying things that might be affecting my health.

Jennifer: 4:54

It's good to know what your number is.

Dee: 4:56

Yeah.

Amanda: 4:57

and I can talk about PACEs, or the Protective and Compensatory Experiences. Something I want to highlight from what Jennifer said is it's not just childhood. These are anything that happened to you prior to age 18. So during childhood and adolescence, a lot of brain development occurs, a lot of development occurs, and it occurs in context. And so, um, We're learning more and more about how the effect of these early negative experiences or adverse experiences affect development and can put us at risk for health problems later on. But when Jennifer and I first talked about ACEs and we went to one of the first ACEs conferences, back in 2013, um, As developmental psychologists, we thought, well, we know a whole lot about the other side of the equation and what to do about ACEs. We know a lot about resilience from the child development literature. We know a lot about parenting and positive family factors and positive things that can have an impact on development. And so we looked at the developmental literature and really thought about the past work that had been done around childhood and adolescence and what really predicts resilience in the face of adversity. So we came up with 10 paces that we call the antidote to ACEs. And so there are five that are more relationship focused. So that would be having unconditional love from a caregiver, having a best friend, having a mentor. Volunteering, especially if you volunteer with a parent, this can be a really powerful experience to get yourself out of your own family. And then belonging, and belonging to a group. And that's really important during adolescence when peer relationships are forming. And so the sense that I have a place in this world. And then the other five paces are what we call environmental influences or resources and supports. And so, that would be having a good school or opportunities for learning a good education. Having clear rules and expectations. And so, living in a world that's not chaotic, there's rules and routines. Having your basic needs met. So, you know, making sure that children and adolescents have the food, the shelter, what they need. It's very hard to be resilient when you're just trying to survive. And then also, um,

Jennifer: 7:17

Physical activity.

Amanda: 7:18

Physical activity. And physical activity is really important because physical activity is something that helps our bodies deal with stress. It also keeps us healthy. And then the last one is having a hobby and hobby is where, especially as children are getting older, they learn about their identity. They learn about like how their own expertise in something or their own interest in something can really affect who they are as a person and gives them an outlet for being, really able to excel at something. And so the evidence is clear too that having that hobby, having that opportunity to excel at something is really important for resilience.

Jennifer: 8:00

Yeah. I want to go back and underscore something Amanda mentioned. Which is that there really is about 60 years of research identifying the characteristics of children and youth environments that protect them. There are studies showing some kids have a horrible environment, a horrible childhood. They grow up in terrible neighborhoods. Their family is a disaster, but they do okay. What is different about those kids? And so we know that sometimes the difference is in the child themselves. for example, they might be the smartest kid in the class. They may be athletic and get a lot of support from people that way. They may be really gorgeous children that everybody, you know, all the teachers just congregate and give them extra attention. We weren't so interested in those qualities because those are harder to change. We were looking at things, if society is serious about supporting our kids, what are the things that are changeable? Things that we can change both in our families and in our communities. And we found these ten things, solid evidence that if kids have these things in their lives, they do better.

Christine: 9:07

I'm so glad that you said that because in going through your book, Raising a Resilient Child in a World of Adversity, it does speak to that. It speaks to some of what we know as traditional child development, but I also love how you really tied in that balanced parenting. And so what if you don't have a naturally resilient family or naturally resilient kind of things you're talking about? how do you then parent differently?

Jennifer: 9:31

So we know that ACEs can affect our parenting and one of the ways Trauma gets transmitted across generations is because it affects our bodies, it can affect our brains when we grow up with a lot of trauma and stress in childhood, it can affect our genes and certainly it can affect our behavior and our ability to tolerate stress and to tolerate negative emotions. So we thought, if we're writing a book about how to raise a resilient child, we need to help parents address their own history of trauma and their own background. And that gave us a slightly different perspective than traditional parenting books. We're both fans. I use that term literally. We are both fans of a psychologist who came up with something called authoritative parenting, Diana Baumrein, because she, talked about a balance kind of between these warm, nurturing, loving, and, highly communicative aspects of parenting, but also on the other side, the accountability, making sure that expectations are there and are high enough. for children to have to work at a little bit and having consequences when they fail or when they don't measure up to their own expectations or ours. But we added another aspect to our balanced parenting, which is self care, particularly when parents themselves have had difficult childhoods. It's unreasonable to expect that, Oh, now I'm just all healed. I'm perfect and I have enough to give to everyone. Well, Sometimes you do, and sometimes you got to recharge your own batteries. And it's like they say in the airplane, you know, if you're traveling with someone who needs assistance and the oxygen masks come down, put yours on first because you can't help them if you passed out from lack of oxygen.

Dee: 11:23

Right. Exactly. So, self care, there's lots of aspects of that. You think, oh, I'm going to take a day and go walking, or I'm going to go to the spa, or I'm going to sleep. How does that contribute to better parenting?

Jennifer: 11:36

So when you are caring for yourself, you have more to give. And if you are caring for yourself in healthy ways, such as through PACES, when you have a hobby that you make time for, when you have a best friend or group that fills your cup, and you get together with your other mothers or dad group, when you do these things, not only are you becoming stronger, more able to control your own emotions and see the big picture and respond appropriately when your child misbehaves, but you're also modeling for your child, this is how we deal with stress. This is how we deal with the adversity that hits us all throughout life is by building ourselves up, by making time for the good things in our lives.

Amanda: 12:22

And I think something that we want to highlight and that we've learned and we talk about in the book quite a bit is that Parenting is part of a relationship So a lot of parenting books just give tools and ideas on what you can do to help your child But we have really thought a lot about and as parenting researchers have learned that it's the relationship that is so key to all of this and so Having tools and having ideas on how to help your child and raise your child in certain situations at different ages is important, but it takes away the importance of what you're bringing to that relationship. So we really talk a lot in the book about being aware of your own past, your own history, your own ACEs, your own PACEs and how they affect your interactions with your child because that is a really important part of the equation.

Christine: 13:17

I love that you bring that up again because we can often talk about what we appreciated as children and how we were parented and how we don't want to parent and yet even having that deliberate thought of I don't want to be that way doesn't mean that we won't be. And so I love in your book how after each chapter there are those questions to even reflect on and ask yourself, How am I parenting? How is this effective? And just those natural questions, or even some of those natural coping skills that might have been developed that need to be rethought. And, I love the chases and the graces.

Dee: 13:50

You mentioned this the last time and I thought it was just brilliant, so please touch on that.

Jennifer: 13:54

So, we talk a lot about biology, and how ACEs affect our bodies, and then we talk about behavior, but there's something else going on, and that's our cognitions, our thought patterns. And so, we both, realize that there were patterns in our own families of origin. When we think about your aces and your paces, you're also recognizing there are some rules that you grew up with in your household, like don't let anybody know that we aren't perfect, or, you know, keep things to yourself. And we're thinking, where did that come from? Well, these are Adaptations that we learned in childhood to deal with trauma and deal with stress. And we weren't consciously developing them. We were just grabbing them as they came across our field of vision. Oh, that's a good one. I'll use that. I get good grades in school, I'll throw myself into school, and then I won't think about what's going on at home, or I'm good at sports, or, we just adapt, and we accommodate, and it works. And then, one day we wake up at 30, 40, whatever age we are, and we go, you know, I'm not sure that's working so well for me anymore. But we don't often stop and think about it. And when we were writing this book, I was in the process of moving and my husband and I were watching the TV show, um, I think we were on YouTube, but we were watching about how to declutter your house.

Dee: 15:23

Oh, yeah. Marie Kondo. Marie Kondo.

Jennifer: 15:26

And she would say, you know, look at things and do they bring you joy? Right. Hold them in your hand and you get that little, ting. You know, if you do, great. because it's so functional or so beautiful or has such meaning to you, then by all means find a place for it in your home. And if it doesn't, say thank you. I don't need you anymore. I appreciate what you've done for me in the past and now I'm letting you go either to the trash heap or to the family and children services pile. We'll let them come and pick it up with their truck next week or to someone else. But. Be intentional about what you keep in your home. And I'm thinking, this is a perfect metaphor for how to keep our responses to stress, to trauma, or not. And so we call them childhood adaptations to ACEs, or what we grew up with. Those are our chases. And then at some point we look at them and say, do I keep this or not? If it's still useful. I'm going to make it one of my grown up adaptations to ACES, and then we call it a graces. Part of our graces.

Dee: 16:31

it's about the evolution and it's about the consistent change that humans go through. Physically, mentally, environmentally, and I find that really interesting. I love the metaphor. You know, you'd mentioned earlier about, childhood trauma, adult trauma, transferring that to your child, family trauma. Can we touch a little bit on intergenerational trauma? I find it a fascinating concept in that trauma can be transferred from one generation to the other and I know physically it can, but I'm beginning to understand that it's also cellular. Can you explain that a little bit?

Amanda: 17:04

Sure, we can, I'll let Jennifer talk about epigenetics because she does it very well. But it is passed down through our biology and so part of it is through our genetic adaptations that are made. through generation after generation in utero to the environment that your body is developing in and so when that child is born, they are prepared for living in that environment in which their caregiver was living. But more than just that, it's passed down through our brain development through our interactions that we're having with our children. Those brain responses are hardwired over time within relationship, within context. So, it's passed down through our genetics, through our brain development, through our bodies. Also, behaviors and coping. And so we learn a lot of those behaviors and those cognitions. But I think Jennifer should talk about epigenetics because it is fascinating. The more, and I want to say this, that we've learned a lot about This Originally, we thought this is what happened intergenerationally. It's important to note that a lot of this research is done in animal models, and it's confirming what we're seeing behaviorally, but now we're starting to do this kind of work in humans. And, and it's being confirmed that what we thought was happening scientifically through animal studies, we're also seeing in human studies as well.

Jennifer: 18:27

It's really, Kind of fascinating to see how the body responds to stress. Because it's so smart in so many ways. Sometimes we're almost too smart. So imagine you're a child and things are stressful all the time. Well, you may have come with a blueprint for genes, like everybody else, but now your environment is saying, we need to modify that blueprint And a specific example would be the chemical that's made to attach to stress hormones. So we have cortisol and we have adrenaline that, you know, helps us run faster and jump higher, that fight flight response under stress, which is very helpful in the short term. Now we all know that cortisol is damaging in the long term. It's corrosive to many of our tissues and organs. So we want to have the immediate response and then we want to get rid of the cortisol. So there are cells that attach to the cortisol, kind of gobble it up after it's done its job and then take it out through the bloodstream, through the liver, and now it's gone. So that you don't stay shaking all day, even though on the way to work this morning somebody almost hit you. Cut right in front of you. You know that feeling when you're driving and you come inches away from Catastrophe. I almost have to take a deep breath just, just talking about it, talking about it. I can feel that emotional and physical response

Dee: 19:53

because your body is so smart

Jennifer: 19:55

so smart. So that gene that says produce this chemical, we call it a glucocorticoid receptor, GR receptor, that gene may. Not work very well after a while because our body says you need to stay vigilant. You need this cortisol. That other shoe can drop any minute. And so one of the ways this happens is, another chemical, we call it a methyl group, will be attached to that gene that produces the GR promoter and suddenly it's like a dimmer switch. It may even turn off altogether. So you are not now regulating like a normal person would. You're regulating like someone who's living in a high stress trauma situation. And that can be damaging over time. And we do know this happens in animals and it happens specifically for those chemicals that are feeding aspects of our brain that are switching on and off, kind of hyper alertness, that hyper vigilance, but we're starting to see it in humans too. And we can see it even pass across generations. So you may have a difficult time responding to stress, not even because of what you went through in childhood, but because what your grandmother went through in childhood.

Christine: 21:11

So I like in one of the chapters, you even show that with the genegram. And encouraging parents to look at what did our history bring to us? What do we know about what's happened? To see how it may play out in my family.

Jennifer: 21:26

It's kind of like knowing, right, that you have a predisposition to diabetes. If your father and every one of his siblings had diabetes by the time they were 50. Probably want to watch how much sugar you take in and have your blood glucose level checked more often than someone else. And in the case of trauma and stress, there are things you can do. There's paces, for example, you can build a life full of paces and very deliberately increase them one at a time. You can also do things that actively build new circuits in your brain. We know that being mindful and breathing slowly in a structured way and allowing your thoughts to just come and go as we do in meditation creates new brain pathways that help us control our reactions and help us lower our stress responses.

Amanda: 22:13

Yeah, I think something to highlight here is that we do pass down how our bodies respond to stress, and that is something that is genetically influenced. But at the same time, the way that we are adapting in our environment, what we're exposed to on a day to day basis affects how our brain is developing. And so, what we do, what we experience in terms of stress and negative experiences, that's going to maybe put us on heightened alert or maybe even not as aware of our environment because it's too stressful and we really zone out. Or, what can happen is the opposite of that, that these positive relationships, this, this experience of feeling safe, this experience of feeling loved, that affects our bodies and our brains as well. And so much of the harm that we see from adversity, we're starting to understand that this can also help heal the brain and body, just as You see in behavior, you can also see it through changes in our blood and in our hormone levels, changes in how we deal with stress, and also in those epigenetic changes that can happen because of our positive experiences that we encounter on a day to day basis, things like PACEs.

Dee: 23:28

So in theory, if you were to Really lean into paces and add those in to your life more robustly in meditation or mindfulness and breathing and exercise. Can you break that cycle?

Amanda: 23:41

Yes.

Jennifer: 23:42

Absolutely. I'm so glad you asked that. we have an ongoing, research lab with graduate students and other faculty members participating post docs at Oklahoma State University. And we've been collecting data from, adults now as well as children on PACES and what they do. And we have pretty robust evidence now that PACES In your life right now, your current paces may be a better predictor of your mental health than either your childhood aces or your childhood paces.

Dee: 24:16

That's so hopeful.

Jennifer: 24:17

It's never too late. We've been saying that for a long time, but now we can say it legitimately because we have real data to support it, that what people do now matters. And this is so true for any of us, but for parents, I think it's so true. It's especially true for them to help moderate their own response to their children, but also it helps them be mindful of the paces that they are putting in their children's lives as a family.

Dee: 24:46

Right.

Christine: 24:47

So I think we see that in some of the treatment that we do where a parent and child, where the relationship had a traumatic experience and the trust was broken or, or things, people were traumatized and how do you rebuild that? And. And look at that trust and, and for that child to be able to do that relationally with their parent who also had that negative experience. But watching the parent find ways to recover, find ways to support them in their recovery to understand, we know we don't feel good right now, we're not acting like we want to, we aren't having all these things, but we can do this. And to move them through that is so powerful To watch that happen and to see that by offering the structure and the reassurances and the paces and the self care, how that can be rebuilt and reworked.

Jennifer: 25:36

The first time we presented paces, almost 10 years ago, at the Xero conference. Someone in the audience stood up and said, do you have these listed on a refrigerator magnet? It was a therapist who was saying, I try to do all these things with my child, but I didn't know why I was doing it. It just seemed like the right thing to do. And so now I know, and they are simple, but it's not always easy.

Dee: 26:03

No, but it is validating too that instinctually as a parent, you know, in many ways. what to do to bring positivity into your child's life and resiliency. I mean, this goes back to the whole resilience thread that I can see through all of this if you'd like to speak to that at all.

Amanda: 26:22

Yeah, I think that in thinking about hardship and adversity, that's part of life. We're all vulnerable. And so, As a developmental psychologist, one of the things we've thought about is what does this look like at different ages. And we like to say it's never too late because children are developing within a family, and so there are multiple generations as we've already talked about today. And so I think, if you think about parenting and paces at different ages, we've realized that some of the same core things are essential no matter what age that we are. They may look a little different in childhood and adolescence and young adulthood and even adulthood, but the paces are something that promote resilience because We think they meet some of these basic needs, and there's some good evidence for that, especially around helping us learn how to regulate our emotions, learning about relationships and how to interact with others, but also by developing character strengths and helping us to develop things for persistence. Values, Jennifer can talk more about this because I think she's got some great examples, but it's not just that we have, okay, these are the things that you need to get resilience. There is a whole process of development and growth that occurs when we engage in PACES.

Jennifer: 27:39

So we mentioned earlier that we came up with the 10 PACES from research that had been done before. But nobody had looked at why. Why do these things work? And as Amanda mentioned, one level is pretty, easy to see. They do meet basic needs. No one wants to be lonely. Loneliness is a killer. We know that. It kills people. As does sitting down all day. So you've got exercise to balance that. Um, but on a deeper level, we started looking at the literature, the research that is being done by people in what we call positive psychology. People looking at how do people do better and thrive and not just recover and limp along, which is what our goal is some days, right? But how do we really thrive? And the positive psychologists were identifying certain character strengths that help people not just thrive, but also be resilient. After a death of a spouse, for example, people who are able to find joy in everyday life, people who are grateful for what they have, recover from that grief experience in a better, more positive way. So examples like that, and we started thinking, paces aren't just things you have, like opportunity to have a hobby. They are things you do. Paces are things that engage you. They exercise certain skills that you have, whether it's perseverance and persistence, when you first pick up a flute and it sounds terrible, or the violin, if anybody's ever had a sibling start to play an instrument. When we started, I'm sure it was fine, but when we are listening to someone else, it can be a little difficult. What keeps us going? That, joy that we get from, trying it and doing it motivates us to keep trying and we learn persistence. We learn self discipline. We learn how to make a schedule where we have A space in it for things that are good for us. So all these things are exercising skills and competencies that over time become part of who we are. Those things we call character strengths. And our belief is that's why PACEs build resilience is because they build us.

Dee: 29:56

Right. Well, and you know, adverse childhood experience, you'd mentioned that really it affects the brain by the time an individual's 18. You know, I know for a fact as an adult, having an adverse experience is still devastating and it's really hard even as an adult to bounce back from. But knowing that PACES can work at any age, as long as you bring that joy into your life, which makes me want to advocate, by the way, for the pet factor again. I know you mentioned that last time, um, as the 11th pace. I would like to, have a vote from our viewers and our listeners, because I do think that there's a humongous joy factor in the pet world.

Christine: 30:36

For sure.

Jennifer: 30:37

Yeah, I mean, where else do you get true, unconditional love? My husband likes to joke that you can tell who loves you more, your wife or your dog, by locking each of them in the trunk of your car and seeing who's happier when you open it up. It's a terrible joke, but it gets at the point that it is truly unconditional. Yes,

Amanda: 30:58

it's, it's amazing. And I think that's an important point too, and that there are other adversities that aren't on that list of 10. I know we talked about that last time from a more global perspective, but even In our own lives, what we might experience, it doesn't have to be war, you know, It's everyday adversities that can add up, but then it could be the death of a spouse or a parent. And so there are things that those other aces that we have and they're adverse. They're not necessarily in childhood, but they're adverse experiences and the same with PACEs. They're other PACEs. Many people talk about having a sibling, you know, that that was something so important to them during childhood because maybe their parents, their aces in their home, and the sibling is what got them through,

Jennifer: 31:42

another one we've talked about is faith. A lot of people draw a lot of support. Absolutely. From their spiritual, um, health or spiritual lives. We were careful when we talk about it, though, because so many people have shared with us also, though, that it can be weaponized. Yeah. Politicized. It can be. Religion can be.

Amanda: 32:01

Yeah. And we try, you know, not everybody has a sibling, so we try to pick places that everybody would have an opportunity to have, but I do agree with you that that pet, especially, depending on where you are in your life, and if you're lonely, having a pet in your life, someone to come home to. So powerful. And they've shown that with oxytocin levels in the brain, that love hormone, that we have that same type of physical reaction that is healing when we're with a pet. And when we spend time with our pet, it's good for our health and our mental health

Jennifer: 32:34

And it's hard to find unconditional love if you're 60 years old. What are you going to do? Go out in the street and say, okay, I'm ready now.

Christine: 32:41

It goes back to, you know, one of the first characteristics that you are hoping the values that you had talked about also in the book of what we're hoping to find or to have in our families and you know, trust is a big issue for a lot of us and Again, with that unconditional love from an animal and that trust factor, you're less likely to have that trust broken, right? And so sometimes having the relationship with an animal could, push you forward into trying with people again.

Jennifer: 33:11

There are cases like that where, um, particularly young adolescents, if they are involved in, with horses or with other, um, Other animals sometimes they're able then to learn to trust human beings

Dee: 33:24

it's a beautiful concept So unconditional love as it relates to parenting Balanced parenting I'd like to talk about that a little bit more deeply

Jennifer: 33:34

I'm glad you asked because the other part of balanced parenting that Amanda and I Spent a lot of time talking about is staying in the middle of the road because so many fad parenting practices spring up and with our society we're all looking for the latest greatest thing and we have influencers seeking to grab our attention on social media and for a while it seemed like it was all gentle parenting. Well, we're a fan of being gentle, no question about it, but as it was interpreted, often by people without a lot of training, it became, just let your child do whatever he feels like. Well, if one child is hitting the other child, how is that gentle for the child being hit? And so, one of the things we really strongly believe is that Parenting works best when you are staying in your lane, when you are keeping your eye on the horizon, when you know where you're going. That goes back to those values and virtues we talked about. We want our children to grow up to be ethical people, people that no one hates to be around because they're so, so, uh, rude or unthoughtful. So you're constantly thinking. Feedback. Nurturing, correction, support, and discipline.

Amanda: 34:57

Right, exactly. And one of the things that we talk about in the book is how this balancing act differs at different ages. And so when children are young, we're really balancing safety, keeping them safe, but also allowing them to explore because that's how they develop naturally. And then in early childhood, we're balancing that idea of control and choice. So giving children choices that you can live with and giving them that autonomy, but still making sure that you have clear expectation. In middle childhood, we talk about balancing limits and independence, which is very similar, but this idea that children They want to be autonomous, they want to have independence, but they need limits. They need that in order to stay safe because they're still children and that as parents we can really provide that safety for them. And then we talk about boundaries and autonomy in tweens and young teens, very similar. But we also talk about Older adolescents and young adults and parenting older adolescents and young adults is something that many parenting books don't really get into but I am in that stage of parenting. My children are young adults and Jennifer has been through it and I'm like, oh my gosh This is the hardest stage.

Dee: 36:11

It's an interesting stage

Amanda: 36:13

Yeah, and that idea of really being able to let go but still stay involved and how hard that is And thinking about so these balancing acts are important. They look, again, something like pieces, a little bit different at different ages. The same concepts are there, but in the book we go through what that looks like at different ages and stages for parents and children.

Jennifer: 36:36

So balancing kind of their ability to push against the boundaries versus keeping them safe, is often more about our anxiety Then it is about what they need or what will other people say if they see our children, you know, playing free range children now.

Dee: 36:56

The judgment card.

Jennifer: 36:57

Yeah. The judgment card. If you let your child do that, well, this child I let do that, the other child I might not. But this child has demonstrated that they are responsible or they have this track record. It's really about. tailoring your, behavior to match your goals and the needs of the child. But it's,

Dee: 37:18

it's hard because I, segued with the idea of unconditional love because everything you do with your child is unconditional love. But when you're having to be a little more disciplined or a little more firm lined, you get that, pushback and then you don't love me and those kinds of things. And you're just, it just is a killer.

Jennifer: 37:37

I remember my daughter once looking at me and saying, if you'll do this, I'll be your best friend. It's like, no, I'm not going to be your best friend. Maybe when you're 30, um, we can talk again about that. But right now I'm your mom and my job is to keep you safe and make sure you grow up. to be the kind of person you want to be.

Christine: 37:54

You have some really neat examples in the book with some of those two of that, that ambivalence for parenting of, if I do this, will I push them further away? But if I don't do this, will they be safe? And some nice examples and, kind of putting the reader even in there in the shoes of that parent of, wow! Which way would we go? and the outcomes of some of those. examples that were given that then the parent reflecting and thinking, okay, that worked out. You know, I tried this and this is where it went and I can see that this is how it was positive. So I really like those elements too, because As a parent, you know, it is a trial and error, and you do have your own conflict in your mind of, you think you should go, what did or didn't work in your past, what misunderstandings you may have. I mean, even in here, you addressed the Should we talk about things? Should we not talk about things? And the struggles as a parent that you go through of, which way do I go? And I just like that you put that out there and made that really relevant.

Jennifer: 38:58

Yeah. None of us are perfect.

Amanda: 38:59

No, no. And I think, realizing that, and we can talk about the five steps in a minute, but that last, step to breaking that intergenerational cycle of parenting is realizing that your children are not you. And so, they may make mistakes that you don't make, or they may not make the mistakes that you made. And part of our fear as a parent is trying to protect them from everything. And what I think happens naturally, I've been thinking about this a lot, this idea of unconditional love, which is, like you said, is always there, Dee. But as children grow older and as they become adolescents and young adults, it's also learning to love them for who they are. Yes. The decision that they made to be who they are, not who we wanted them to be. And that can sometimes be hard for parents. And so I think, you know, not only do we need to love our kids unconditionally, but we do need to love them for who they are. I think that's just as important.

Dee: 39:56

I agree with you 100%. And it's, it's sometimes hard. It is.

Jennifer: 40:00

You get so many surprises as a parent and some of them you're not prepared for. So I think it goes back to something you mentioned earlier about it being a relationship. And in a good relationship, you can say, you know, I kind of messed up back there. My response to your asking me this or you're doing that, maybe it wasn't the right response. I'm not really sure what the right response is. That was the best I could come up with at the time. You know, do we want to revisit this? maybe we need to move in a different direction. Maybe the rules we set based on that experience need to be revisited. Talk with me.

Christine: 40:37

And that approaches it. It's amazing again, and it's like offering a younger child choices in some ways and an older child as they're developing their ability to reflect and come back and have a conversation. And how do you manage your emotions and how do you manage your mistakes and your communication? It just really elevates that versus the parent always having to be right. And you just stick with it because you just have to be right. Right. I

Amanda: 41:03

think that's true. And I think, you know, I think coming back to what we've been talking about, those, steps that we talk about, the steps to breaking that intergenerational cycle of ACEs, and You know, the first one is really knowing your own background, your aces, your pieces, sort of where you are and how that's affecting your relationship with your child. And your parents and your grandparents. What is the kind of legacy that you bring to this parenting? So just acknowledging that and then what, like you were saying Christine, the second piece, which is so crucial, is really getting our own emotions in check. Learning how to control our own responses, our own emotions in the face of a stressful interaction with our child. And so really being able to be calm and be that parent. And then, learning about our chases and getting rid of those negative adaptations and coping responses and moving on to graces. And then the last one, which is what we've been talking about here, is that your child is not you. And so making that realization that all the things that you may be feared or didn't fear that you need to really think of your child as their own individual person developing in their world with their own ideas. And Learning how to walk alongside them and to be that parent, but still at the same time, keeping that relationship in check and helping them know that you love them for who they are and who they're becoming.

Dee: 42:33

That was beautifully stated. I mean, that just is a summary of everything we just talked about.

Christine: 42:39

So much wonderful information. how do we look at what resources or support systems are, really available for our parents and our families who are dealing with ACEs and intergenerational trauma?

Jennifer: 42:52

This is difficult because every community is different I mean, here in Tulsa, we're fortunate to have Family and Children's Services right here. We also have several medical schools with departments of psychology and psychiatry and social work who offer kinds of, support. One of the best ways I know is to go on the internet. But be careful. You really want to vet people when you go to see someone. I'm a big believer in therapy. I've gone at different times of my life when I needed help, as a parent, as a wife, as a human being, to cope with adversity. But you want to get multiple referrals. Talk with friends. Talk with trusted people to get advice because not everybody is qualified. Even if they're qualified and great, they may not be great for you. If you go a couple of times and you're just not feeling it, it's like, All right, try somebody else. So there are resources available even in rural and remote places now. One of the things COVID did was to put a lot of support online for people. So telemedicine and telehealth, you know, we have a lot of resources now available to us that we didn't have 10 years ago.

Amanda: 44:06

Yeah, I think being aware of your own weaknesses and your own needs and being able to acknowledge that, okay, it's okay to get help. It's something that I need. And that realizing that some of this is just making your life and your interactions better and healthier and focusing on yourself, there's nothing wrong with that. And so when we help children, we have to think about helping ourselves too sometimes.

Dee: 44:29

The self care piece.

Amanda: 44:30

Yeah, and I think that It's not just self care. It's sometimes self work, you know, and so working on ourselves And when we are healthier and we're better and we're living a life That's a little more balanced that helps us be a better parent

Jennifer: 44:44

There used to be a lot of stigma attached to getting help mental health We have a lot of friends in the business, of course, And they say you know, if you had a liver problem, would you feel guilty about going to a doctor for that? Right. You know, this is brain health. So, you know, we want to have as healthy of a life as we can, whether it's our brain, whether it's our internal organs, whether it's our behavior, we can seek help.

Christine: 45:09

And that's what, that's what we hear so often is we will bring our children to these services, but we don't have time for ourselves. Or I know what to do. I just need to do it. Or I talked to my best friend about it. And it is just that perfect example. If you needed a tooth pulled, your best friend's not going to do that for you. So to give yourself permission to, Go someplace else and self work and self care in that way to give yourself that space and that ability. And to recognize that sometimes our friends and family aren't the best to give us that feedback. And sometimes we need to say some really difficult things that somebody else who doesn't know them can hear for them instead.

Jennifer: 45:50

Yeah. And I think one of the things that maybe is a misconception about mental health or behavioral health, is that it's just You complaining that you're just paying somebody to listen to you, complain about your problems. And in fact, it's really how you learn new skills. You learn how to think maybe a little bit differently. You learn communication skills, how to express your feelings, how to become aware of your feelings, how to respond to other people who may behave badly toward you

Dee: 46:18

and recognize your blind spots.

Jennifer: 46:19

Yeah, you don't know what you don't know, right? Right.

Dee: 46:23

So I'd like to share with our listeners other ways they can find your work. I mean, obviously your book and the work you do at the university I know isn't really publicly available, but, you're on wholehearted. org. Tell us a little bit about what that resource is.

Jennifer: 46:37

So wholehearted. org is a group of people who their goal was to become the Netflix of mental health. Oh, wow. So that they would have a whole library of resources, of videos and masterclasses available both to therapists and professionals, but also to the public on how to live happier, healthier lives. And they found us by accident and invited us to go out and do live workshops. Which they videotaped and edited and the first one, the little mini series is coming out June 1st on the book on balanced parenting. But then a master class on re parenting your inner child. Oh, wow. Which gets at going back and taking care of that child with ACEs. And, and recovering and, and giving yourself the permission to grow up, To be the best you can be and not the person that is still trying to cope with those ACEs That comes out later this summer. Oh, excellent.

Amanda: 47:37

Yeah, and so the Balanced Parenting mini series will be available for everyone on YouTube. And so that's really for anyone who is interested in learning more about parenting, more about ACEs and PCs. And then The master class, which is the one on reparenting the inner child, is really more for therapists, for counselors, for clinicians, coaches, healing professionals, teachers, anyone who works with children. And so there is a range of options. If you go to wholehearted. org, they have a lot of different information there.

Jennifer: 48:11

We also, have a website, acesandpaces dot com, and we try to put up resources as we develop them.

Amanda: 48:20

Yeah, we have a lot of things. We have some blogs that we've done with the child and family blog, which has a lot of science that has been translated for a general audience. We also have work that we've done with the extension services that have fax sheets and have special feature articles that talk about what we can do to help children and families and then we have our research articles on there as well. So feel free to check that out.

Dee: 48:45

Excellent. Well, so many great resources for our listeners and again, I could talk for another three hours with you two. I appreciate you being guests today.

Jennifer: 48:55

We enjoy it so much.

Amanda: 48:56

Yeah, it was a pleasure..........

Dee: 48:58

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