Psychedelics in Canada with Payton Nyquvest

Welcome to Sofieland, a talk show podcast where I find the people who exist at the place where all my interests intersect. Together, we'll dive into talks about creativity, psychedelics, travel, pop culture, and more.

In this first episode, I talk to Payton Nyquvest, CEO of Numinus Wellness, about psychedelics in Canada and the current psychedelic space, among other things.

My links

• Substack: https://sofiemikhaylova.substack.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sofiedoeseverything
• Website: https://www.sofiedoeseverything.xyz/
• What is experimental music?:  https://open.spotify.com/show/2cDQxV3fUOfOkt0r95seCK?si=0f1c7bfbe0f74745

Other links

• Numinus: https://numinus.com/
• Mour: https://solo.to/beatsbymour
• Nine Point Agency: https://ninepointagency.com/
• Lynx Music: https://lynxmusic.ca/

Transcript

Sofie Mikhaylova  0:02  
Hi everyone and welcome to the first episode of Sofieland the podcast. I'm Sofie Mikhaylova. I'm a writer. I'm a journalist, a teacher, a marketer, a creative and creator, and a whole host of other things that constantly shape, shift, change and evolve. And now I'm also a podcaster. My scope of work right now lies mostly within the realms of psychedelics pop culture, travel, exploration, creativity, and creation, and all the places where those things intersect. You may already know me from my weekly newsletter of the same name, Sophie land, if you're not already subscribed, I really recommend that you check it out. Every Monday morning, I offer a personal essay, five things I like a weekly mission and more. And it's also what I'll be posting the transcriptions of this podcast. So if you don't want to listen, you can choose to read. Sofieland the podcast is still in its embryonic stage. Although I've done a podcast before -- "What Is Experimental Music?" -- which I'll link in the description, this is my first ever attempt at hosting alone. I'm excited to see what it becomes and who comes on here and what fascinating conversations we'll have around all the things that interests me and that I want to talk about. Thank you so much for being here. Let's begin. I'm here with Payton Nyquvest, the founder and CEO of Numinus Wellness. Thank you so much for joining me.

Payton Nyquvest  1:15  
Thanks for having me.

Sofie Mikhaylova  1:17  
Let's get right into it. Because we don't have a lot of time. And as we talked about TikTok brain. So these are gonna be short episodes. So Numinus Wellness is your company. Yeah. Yeah. And you're focused a lot on ketamine and psilocybin therapy services, psilocybin.

Payton Nyquvest  1:35  
Yeah, so it was really, really what we looked at is, is the recognition that obviously, you know, how do we support this kind of paradigm shift of psychedelic therapies becoming available, but knowing and kind of, to what we were talking about before of believing that not just ketamine, but also MDMA, psilocybin, other psychedelic therapies are going to become available? But how do we really build the container that needs to be created to support those therapies so that they can really be effecting effective and lasting for people? And And with that, you know, I think we're going to experience some challenges within the psychedelic space as well. These are powerful tools. And it's still such a new space. Correct? Correct. And the thing that, you know, even through my own experience, recognition of like, yes, these experiences are profound and cathartic and all of those things, but they're only as effective as the container that can really help hold people through that. And so that's what Numinus is really like to create that.

Sofie Mikhaylova  2:44  
So you've been at the forefront of the psychedelic space in Canada for about five years now? How does that feel? And what are you most excited about when it comes to the future of psychedelics in Canada? Like, given that you're like, very much on the leading edge of it, like you are the only company in Canada that has like Health Canada approval to harvest psilocybin mushroom grow and harvest psilocybin mushrooms for therapeutic use? That's incredible.

Payton Nyquvest  3:08  
Yeah, it's, it's been wild to see how quickly things have progressed. When I started Numinus five years ago, I really didn't think things would advance as quickly as they have. 

Sofie Mikhaylova  3:21  
But you must have had, like, you were like, I'm not gonna start this company, just to have it, like, sit around for 10 years.

Payton Nyquvest  3:26  
And not sit around. But I mean, I definitely, I saw what was happening. And again, through my own experience, I, I, I knew that I wanted to do something to give back. But, you know, to, and we were sharing earlier talking about this earlier, but there's kind of this easy judgement of like, regulators aren't doing enough or all these kinds of things. Health Canada's moved really, really quickly through a very complex question and and a very complex situation around psychedelic therapy.

Sofie Mikhaylova  4:00  
Yeah, they'd be such like, rewrite everything and like, create a new framework.

Payton Nyquvest  4:04  
Yeah, yeah. And and I think we've seen you know, whether use the section 56 exemptions that you saw a couple of years ago, start to get approved. Now, you know, the changes to the special access drug programme, which we which we helped change. Yeah, you know, that they've, they've been thoughtful and move very, very quickly. And I think that's only going to probably continue to happen here over the next couple of years.

Sofie Mikhaylova  4:26  
Yeah, that's good to hear. I'm really excited about that as well. Like, I remember when all the cannabis stuff was happening, like, what, five, six years ago and I feel like this is like, that's why I get so alarmed when people are like, Oh, it's moving. So so like, to me this is like at the speed of light compared to the cannabis stuff.

Payton Nyquvest  4:41  
It's crazy. And I think we have to be super like people. People are so there's such this passion for psychedelics, and I think that's amazing. But I think we have to be very intentional as well, like, you know, again, these are very, very powerful cars. compounds, and yes, we want access but psychedelics are so also aren't for everybody. 

Sofie Mikhaylova  5:05  
They're not for everyone. I think that's so like, thank you so much for saying that. I think that's so important. I really think that the rhetoric online and like in mainstream media around psychedelics is overwhelmingly positive. Yeah, they are not, no, or everybody they need to be treated with respect, especially some of them that are really powerful. Like, these aren't even recreational substances. Like you can't do these things for fun. And you have to be careful. And I think this goes back to what you're talking about what the container like, yes, you can have the session, the experience and the integration. But preparation is also very important, absolutely to knowing like to know what you're going to walk into, and to be open to that experience, and to know that it may not go the way that you want it to. Yeah, a lot of these places will sell healing. I think like, personally, I think that's dangerous. 

Payton Nyquvest  5:51  
The potential for abuse is so high. Yeah. And and I think, you know, that there's so much positivity out there about psychedelics, and frankly, you know, rightfully so if people are paying attention to, you know, even if you look at the clinical trials, if people are paying attention to how these compounds are being used, even even historically, like how have these compounds been used in, you know, indigenous groups who have worked with these compounds for 1000s of years, and it wasn't like, hey, everybody just does mushrooms in their living room, and all of a sudden,

Sofie Mikhaylova  6:21  
everybody has a party. And it's so crazy. We don't measure it,

Payton Nyquvest  6:23  
right? No, there's there, there was intention around it, there was community that was built around it, there was ceremony that was, you know, all of those kinds of things, right, and there was understanding of like, and reverence for what this is for him, and the intention behind it. And I think the thing that makes me very nervous right now is you see, all of this positivity, these clinical trials that come out, and the huge kind of, like, increase in use of psychedelics is not from people who come from a community of understanding psychedelics, it's the, you know, it's the single mom who has severe postpartum depression that is looking for support, who looks for access, right now. Can't find it. But guess what can find all kinds of retreats online and people saying, like, I'm this healer, I'm that healed I'm a shaman. Right, like, and whatever that means. And, and, you know, the, the high degree of potential for abuse. And we've unfortunately, already seen this where people have been sexually abused, they've been emotionally abused by people who don't know what they're doing,

Sofie Mikhaylova  7:31  
they can come out of these retreats with like, more trauma 100%, they can go into psychosis, especially when you're working with, you know, things like five Meo, like and a provider that doesn't know what they're doing with it. Like these are really powerful substances. Like I mean, I mean, yeah,

Payton Nyquvest  7:46  
I mean, you get you go, perfect example. If you go, whether it's to the Amazon, you go to indigenous communities who have worked with these compounds, for you to be a person who's providing that ceremony. A lot of that time that training is 10 to 15 years, years and decades, and you've lived in a community Yeah. Who, who exists with like, this has been a part of your community in your culture since the day you were born. Right? Not like, Hey, I did, you know, some weekend workshop. And now I'm ready to

Sofie Mikhaylova  8:18  
give right yeah, I interviewed like a while back for an article about underground facilitators. And like indigenous lineages, Dario Giuffrida, I can't remember his last name, but he is, he's Italian. But he basically lived in Ecuador with a tribe for like eight plus years. And he was telling me the process of basically like, a lot of like, prayer and like self meditation, and then living among the local community and following the main healer around until the community was willing to go to him and he was like, in this lineage. When you use the medicines, the traditional way you have to like the community will decide if you're the healer or not exact, you don't get to choose and be like, okay, all of a sudden, I'm now ready to give the medicine like he had to earn that right.

Payton Nyquvest  9:04  
Don't just pop up a website and an Instagram account and say, Guess what, I'm I'm healer now.

Sofie Mikhaylova  9:08  
Yeah. On that note of like things popping up. I mean, you are based in Vancouver where it's a little bit more looser when it comes to the Drug Regulations. But here in Toronto, we've had a lot of dispensaries open up as well. I personally spent a lot of my time in the dispensary scene. I think it's super interesting. I think it's a really kind of fun form of like guerrilla activism in a way so I do kind of like, applaud it. I was wondering what your thoughts on that are about like increasing access to people?

Payton Nyquvest  9:34  
I think, I think so. Broadly speaking, I think access is really important. And and I think, you know, people ask me, like, do you support decriminalisation? Do you support legalisation do sport medicalization of psychedelics? My answers is yes, I support blanket statement. Yeah, I think all of it is important. But again, I think we have to really be cautious about how worse supporting those things and who were thinking of it through the lens through like, you know, the decriminalisation movement and this argument around like everybody, as long as you're not harming somebody else, everybody should have access to explore their own consciousness. Yes, I 100% agree with that. Try going to someone with suicidal ideation or severe depression and saying, like, why don't you just go and explore your own consciousness? They'd be like, that's not in the cards for me. Yeah,

Sofie Mikhaylova  10:24  
not the best place to be.

Payton Nyquvest  10:26  
that's, that's the I can't even consider that. Right. So we also have to go like, and how do we provide financial support for those people? How do we provide safe and supportive container for those people? And again, like, let's, let's, let's be honest about education, and, and, you know, setting people up for success, and not just be like, you know, these should be for everybody. Like, If we learned anything from the Timothy Leary, age is, you know, drugs for everybody is is, you know, maybe not the answer.

Sofie Mikhaylova  11:03  
Most popular opinion. Yeah, yeah. And I think we

Payton Nyquvest  11:05  
just have to be cautious,

Sofie Mikhaylova  11:06  
right? Yeah. What do you think that I mean, I think these dispensaries are going to open up. Regardless, I interviewed Dana Larsen, you know, not too long ago. And he told me that he thinks in the next few years, there's gonna be 100, at least opened up across Canada. I completely agree. Like if what we're seeing in Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver is a sign like people have money, they're willing to open up these chains and invest millions into them. They have lawyers on retainer that they're confident in. What do you think that these dispensaries could do to create safer environments and to care more about the consumer?

Payton Nyquvest  11:38  
I think there's an opportunity with the dispensaries to really do a good job of education, like I am workshops are like pamphlets, workshops, pamphlets, like how, you know if someone's going into a dispensary, like the person who's engaged, like I remember I went into I went into a dispensary in Vancouver, and they were selling coca leaves, right? And you know, coca leaves are used in Peru, the its legal improves, uses a tee. It's used for altitude climatization, like it's used for all and they have a very healthy relationship with that plant. In Peru, they have some of the largest cocaine or the the lowest cocaine addiction rates on the on the planet. And they're the largest producer of coca leaf, right in the world, right? Because they have this different relationship with that drug. Yeah. But I go to this dispensary, and I go, Oh, you're selling coca leaf here. And they go, yeah. Would you like some baking soda with that? Oh, that was like, No, I'm not interested in, you know, which essentially, is the tools to making to make your own cooker and great. Oh, wow. Right. And so I think as we're putting out building these dispensaries, you know, like, as an example, like, I know, a mother is an example. And, and I'm using this example, this was very, very close to home for me, but I had it, my wife suffered with severe postpartum depression. And for a year and a half, you know, through we had our first child through COVID. And she was really, really, really struggling and, you know, has a very different development path than I do. And after a year and a half was was in a very, very challenging spot and decided to try micro dosing psilocybin a week of micro dosing psilocybin and she literally comes skipping down the stairs when Wow, and says, My postpartum is completely gone. She microdose for six weeks stopped and it never came back.

Sofie Mikhaylova  13:37  
She's still microdose I mean, that's it. That's an amazing she,

Payton Nyquvest  13:39  
she's she's pregnant. We're having our second so she's pregnant again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So she's so she's off the microdosing

Sofie Mikhaylova  13:47  
I mean, yeah, of course. She's like, feeling excited to have a child.

Payton Nyquvest  13:52  
Through that. That's powerful. Yeah. So I think, I think as dispensaries again, like, there's this opportunity to educate and this opportunity to, like, really help people. And people need that. I mean, I know lots of people who run online dispensaries, and literally they can't keep product on this out on the shelf.

Sofie Mikhaylova  14:14  
Yes. So, so freely want it.

Payton Nyquvest  14:17  
My wife is in this in this online group. And it's called, like Moms Who Microdose or something.

Sofie Mikhaylova  14:22  
Yeah, there's shout out to moms who microdose Yeah, that's right. And there's

Payton Nyquvest  14:25  
300,000 People in this huge, huge community and so we have to provide better education that there's certainly a market that is there because these dispensaries continue to pop up. But let's just tell the truth. You know, the fact is, is part of the reason why I love this whole space is the fact is more impressive than the fiction is we don't have to can't make this up. We can make it up and so, you know, let's let's just tell the truth and let's give people the opportunities that are there with psychedelics and Let's talk about the risks. Yes, because it's only going to take a couple of very bad stories for this to, you know, get hampered and and end up backwards been for the last 50 years.

Sofie Mikhaylova  15:10  
Yeah, to go right back to where it was after the LSD research and stuff. And you know, Canada was like the hub for that.  Saskatchewan. people don't know that.

Payton Nyquvest  15:19  
Saskatchewan was the hub!

Sofie Mikhaylova  15:21  
that's where like the word was invented the word psychedelic. So big shout out to Humphry Osmond for giving us jobs. We are slowly running out of time, but like quick note on the micro dosing, you were saying that your wife microdose for a week and felt the profound difference. There's a lot of like, articles, there's a lot of like conversation around micro dosing like I do it myself.

I am a fan. I started doing it during COVID. Because like everybody else I was depressed.

And I found it really effective for me. Do you think that it actually works? Or if it's just placebo? And if it is just we'll see what what do you? What do you think

Payton Nyquvest  16:02  
I mean that we're talking about this? Yeah. But like, what is plus? Like, what is plus?

Sofie Mikhaylova  16:08  
It's just your mind?

Payton Nyquvest  16:08  
How much? How much are you willing to pay for a placebo effect, right like that? I think the anecdote for me the anecdotal evidence watching what's happened with my wife, you know, I've microdose and it's been helpful for me, I think there's something there that is positive.

Sofie Mikhaylova  16:26  
So many people are speaking so positively. But so many people have had amazing responses to it. And when it comes to micro dosing, I think the reason why it's also so popular is because for a lot of people who have never had a psychedelic experience, it's a really nice way to kind of introduce yourself. Yeah, and mushrooms or LSD, or whatever you're choosing to take. And I think

Payton Nyquvest  16:42  
it's done a really remarkable job of breaking down stigma around psychedelics, which I think has been really, really

Sofie Mikhaylova  16:49  
important. Yeah. Especially on older people. Yeah, like people like 50 Plus, exactly. And

Payton Nyquvest  16:53  
so I think that that's really, really great, though. The one thing I think all is important, as well as I think a lot of people get, like the amount of people who call us saying like, Oh, you know, you're in psychedelics, you mean, microdosing? We go, no, no, like,

Sofie Mikhaylova  17:11  
there's more to it than that.

Payton Nyquvest  17:12  
There's a lot more to it than that. So I think, while there's this education and interest in microdosing, which is, I think, amazing, we also have to really lay out like, what is the difference between microdosing with psychedelics and psychedelic therapy, because they're very, very different things. And even like recreational

Sofie Mikhaylova  17:29  
psychedelic use, I feel like the conversation around psychedelics has gotten so serious, that like some of us who started working with psychedelics, like for fun, yep, you kind of forget that they can be fun. And I think there's really nothing wrong with that you're allowed to just take like a couple grammes of shrooms and go into the woods with your body. Yep, that's still okay. And that can still be a profound experience.

Payton Nyquvest  17:50  
And and I think, I think that also speaks to healing more broadly. Like I think, I think we have to break, you know, even like trauma work, you know, people go into, even for myself, like, there's this expectation that, like, healing has to be hard. And then I know suffering, suffering and like, no, the whole point of you're so broken, you have to. That's right. And I think what psychedelics can do is like, yes, you'll reach moments of challenge as as as you do through these experiences. But healing doesn't have to be this hard, negative,

Sofie Mikhaylova  18:26  
uphill battle uphill, linear at all in general. Exactly. Exactly.

Payton Nyquvest  18:30  
So I think I think there's an opportunity for us to reframe the way we think about that

Sofie Mikhaylova  18:35  
yeah, of course I love that big shout out if you want to reframe your thoughts on healing Big shout out to the Instagram page @healingfromhealing. Do you follow I don't know that it's it's so good. So out if you're listening to this come on to my show, please. But yeah, Payton, thank you so much for the interview. What an enlightening conversation I will let you go do the many more interviews that you have to thank you so much for listening to the first episode of Sofieland. I love to thank all the people who made this possible thank you to Payton for being my first guest to link studios for the recording space to more for the recording and the audio editing and of course to nine point agency for the media connect and to you for listening. For more of my work, you can subscribe to my newsletter Sofieland on Substack or find me on Instagram @sofiedoeseverything which for now are my two main containers for sharing my work and being in touch with you. But that might eventually change to thank you again so much for listening and I can't wait to see you again in the next episode.