Episode 4: International Men's Day 2023

In episode four, we speak to Station Manager James Crouan, Firefighters Gary Fernandez and Davey Byers, and our Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford ahead of International Men's Day 2023 (19 November 2023). This day is all about making a positive difference to the well-being and lives of men and boys.

The episode explores each colleague's story and things that helped them, the stigmas they have found around men's mental health and it provides examples on how you can help and support those people around you who may be struggling.

(Please note, We are not medical experts.  Our colleagues are sharing their own experiences and stories).

Links to Websites/Resources discussed in the episode:

• uk.movember.com click on the men’s health tab for links to information about spotting the signs, how to have difficult conversations and suicide prevention.
•  SHOUT crisis line – text SHOUT to 85258 or visit their website giveusashout.org
• hubofhope.co.uk is a mental health database providing postcode search function, so wherever you are, you can access support.

 Work Support:

• If you are a serving or retired fire service personnel (operational or non-operational) the Fire Fighters Charity is there to support you firefighterscharity.org.uk
• Along with their support programmes to improve health and wellbeing they have just launched a crisis line, to support fire service personnel (serving or retired) if they experience thoughts of suicide.  The crisis line number is 0300 373 0896

And remember if you liked our episode, please like and subscribe and let’s make Lancashire safer together.

Transcript

[00:00:00.250] Intro Music

[00:00:04.450] - Host (Lucinda)
Welcome to Lancashire Fire and Rescue Service's podcast series Out of the Ashes: Stories from Lancashire. Today's episode is focusing on men's mental health ahead of International Men's Day's 2023. This day is all about making a positive difference to the well being and lives of men and boys. November is also known as Movember and this campaign raises money and awareness to support men's mental health.

[00:00:28.360] - Host (Lucinda)
Today I will be speaking with Station manager James Crouan, Firefighters Gary Fernandez and Davey Byers, and our Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford, who will be sharing their personal experiences and stories to help reduce stigma and help others understand their experiences better.

[00:00:44.850] - Host (Lucinda)
Today we are simply providing advice and tips that have helped our individuals. We are not medical experts. There will be links in the episode description below to relevant services and support systems, if any of these subjects have been distressing to you.

[00:00:59.600] - Host (Lucinda)
Thank you all for taking the time today to share your stories. Shall we start on what stigmas do you find around men's mental health?

[00:01:09.190] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Well, I think probably the ultimate thing is that blokes are really notoriously bad at actually communicating about their feelings.

[00:01:18.970] - Station Manger James Crouan
Particularly when you talk about men's mental health, there is still something of a stigma there. I think some people still sort of get particularly embarrassed about it if they're talking about their own experiences. I think people feel that they're going to be judged or that it's some sort of sign of weakness. We wouldn't for one minute think about telling somebody with a broken leg to get up and run it off, yet we seem to tell people that are struggling with a mental and emotional well being to just kind of get on with it. Or we perhaps put that pressure on ourselves. And that's why I think it's so important that we do destigmatise men's mental health and open up that conversation.

[00:01:54.610] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I also think it comes down to sort of historical reference, doesn't it? So men have always been the ones going out, working, breadwinning, bringing the money home. I think it comes from this deevolved society that we've evolved from now, where it's more equal. We should be talking about these things. We're in these tough positions, particular line of work where we're coming into situations where it is going to affect us mentally. 

[00:02:17.880] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Blokes are getting better at it. I think, and particularly in the environment that we work in as a responder, as being part of a group of people who work very closely with each other. We spend as much time together as we do with our own families a lot of the time.

[00:02:35.090] - Host (Lucinda)
Did either of you suffer with stigma and opening up when you were first struggling with your mental health?

[00:02:42.470] - Station Manger James Crouan
For me personally, when I first started to really struggle, probably middle of summer 2022, I was new into my current Station Manager role at the time, so I perhaps didn't have those kind of close working relationships with my staff at that point. And also, you're very conscious of the fact that when you're a Station Manager and you're the person on station who is at the top of that kind of organisational structure, that a lot of the time you're there to soak up other people's problems and to help other people sort out some of their personal issues. So you don't necessarily get the opportunity to be able to reverse that situation. So for me, yeah, I probably did struggle initially, but then when the wheels really sort of fell off for me, which was around about kind of March, April this year, I had a lot of very good people around me, and I am somebody who a lot of people would say is sort of like a bit of an oversharer.

[00:03:45.238] - Host (Lucinda)
Right

[00:03:45.310] - Station Manger James Crouan
So I find it quite easy to talk about my experiences, and even more so since some of the difficulties that I've been through this year.

[00:03:54.090] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I personally, yeah, I was in a position previously where I was a manager of a service. And again, you feel like you have to stay in control, you have to be the strong person all the time. We use this saying, man up all the time, don't we? And although it's not a completely negative thing to say, it almost puts that stigma onto you that you have to manage, just get on with it. And it builds up and builds up over time, doesn't it? And I'm fortunate in this line of work now, that I've got a good team around me and my mental health is being sort of contained and managed by myself and sort of good peers around me that support me all the time.

[00:04:29.270] - Host (Lucinda)
Was your mental health work related? Was it work?

[00:04:34.090] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
So mine personally was exacerbated by work, but it was more of a personal thing. So my major struggle is with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which leads to sort of anxiety. But mine's a personal struggle rather than a specific work struggle. I struggle with, my mind needing to have levels of control and structure and unorganisation within it. So that is exacerbated by work, because these things are taken away from you and you can't always control those things. But, yeah, work. Work wasn't a great sort of advocate for my mental health at one point.

[00:05:11.030] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I've been in the fire service quite a while now. I started in the retained, or there's now called the on call now, when I was 19, 20 years old. There have been times where I'd been going to jobs and dealing with what we'd been dealing with and I'd be coming back and there'd been nobody to talk to, there'd been no support services, nothing like it is today.

[00:05:35.020] - Host (Lucinda)
Yeah.

[00:05:35.820] - Firefighter Davey Byers
And I just accepted it that that was the norm. That's how it was. If you wanted to be in this job and do that thing that you love, that's how you had to feel.

[00:05:47.550] - Station Manger James Crouan
For myself, it was probably the other way around. Initially, it was work related stress.

[00:05:54.310] - Host (Lucinda)
Right.

[00:05:55.190] - Station Manger James Crouan
I have suffered with complex post traumatic stress disorder. There was one particular incident that was kind of the trigger point for that. And whilst it was a really unpleasant incident, it wasn't probably the worst incident that I've ever been to, but what that did was that probably put me in a position where I had to start to deal with some of the other incidents that I've dealt with over the years. Spent a lot of time on the Urban Search and Rescue Team, a lot of things that I've been exposed to that I probably thought I had packed away properly and dealt with. But it became apparent after that one particular incident that, no, I hadn't. Now, on the flip side, for me, that then started to impact my personal life. It started to really affect relationships at home. It put a lot of strain on my marriage and on my family and it kind of snowballed from there, really.

[00:06:48.690] - Host (Lucinda)
Thank you very much for opening up there, guys. That's really important to share how you were struggling, because, like you say, men don't open up and they don't speak about it. It's a very private thing. And I think opening up on your own struggles allows other people to realise that it's comfortable and normal too. What did you find helped when you were struggling?

[00:07:10.610] - Firefighter Davey Byers
It's talking, but it's finding the right person to talk to. Somebody that will listen to you, that doesn't judge you, that's able to support you. And I think really, when you talk about friendship, and particularly as a bloke, your friends are people, that not just you could go for a pint with or have a round of golf with, but people that you could honestly sort of ring up or rely on to support you in your hour of need. Rather than not knowing what to do, or just turning their back on you, or being the withering Violet or saying, oh, sorry, man, I didn't pick your call up or somebody that's actually going to be prepared to almost get their hands dirty and get stuck in because.

[00:07:58.070] - Host (Lucinda)
Be prepared to actually listen and take on the information.

[00:08:01.210] - Firefighter Davey Byers
I think when blokes put their hand up, particularly have reached that point in time and they put their hand up for help, they really are in a position where they need some assistance rather than like a midway point. And sometimes you can't spot signs with people that are struggling all of a sudden it just happens.

[00:08:22.930] - Station Manger James Crouan
I think, for myself, as I mentioned before, I initially started to have difficulties around about sort of the middle of summer 2022. And I had a really poor experience with the level of help that I tried to access at that time and foolishly, really just kind of came away from that and thought, you know what, forget it, I'll deal with this by myself.

[00:08:48.810] - Host (Lucinda)
Right

[00:08:49.670] - Station Manger James Crouan
Hence, I was sort of seven, eight, nine months down the line from that when everything reached sort of like a point where it was boiling over. I think for me, it kind of really highlights the point of actually making sure that you do access the right help at the right time. The longer you leave these things, the harder they will bite you when they get out. And they will eventually get out and catch up with you.

[00:09:13.950] - Host (Lucinda)
Yeah. It all eventually piles up, doesn't it? And it, like a pan, it boils over.

[00:09:18.290] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
Yeah, I had exactly the same experience, so I was dealing with it on my own, trying to manage it, keeping it to myself, not talking to my partner, not talking to my children, withdrawing myself at that point, my next port of call, is to think, right, it's a problem, I'll just fix it. I'll go to the doctors, just maybe get some medication, get some sort of quick fix to it. That's not really the answer, is it? So luckily I went to a good doctor who sort of signposted me to the right areas. So I ended up getting touch with sort of services out there, looking at doing CBT, looking at doing some counselling, and I actually got the help I needed by speaking out. But until that point, I'd literally just tried to deal with myself and it wasn't helping at all.

[00:09:57.390] - Station Manger James Crouan
I think with everything that you said there, it does just kind of build up and build up because the longer you try and deal with something by yourself, the more you're actually adding an additional layer of stress to everything else that is already causing your distress. In the first instance, I think going back to your original question about what helped. For me, one of the things was very specific level of treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It's a very specific therapy that you have to go through. It's called the MDR therapy. And I went through several weeks of that as well as a lot of talking therapies, a combination of that medication, which took, as you quite rightly pointed out there, it isn't a quick fix, medication. A lot of the time it makes you feel worse before you start to feel better, and that can be a really tough process to go through. But I think the big things for me were the people that were around me.

[00:10:55.830] - Host (Lucinda)
A good support system.

[00:10:57.160] - Station Manger James Crouan
Yeah. There was three colleagues in particular of mine, who I'm not going to mention by name because I don't want to embarrass them, but they were virtually working shifts with me. I was talking to at least one of them every single day for probably about two and a half months,

[00:11:14.710] - Host (Lucinda)
Gosh

[00:11:15.070] - Station Manger James Crouan
When things were at their worst and just having that regular level of contact. And there were times that I'd be on the phone to colleagues at sort of half past ten, eleven o'clock at night because I'd be having an absolutely horrific anxiety attack and I needed somebody to be able to kind of talk me down from that. But I think there was a lot of hard won lessons for me during what I've been through during the early part of this year. But I think one of them that's come out of that is that there is help out there, particularly with our support network that we've got with colleagues within the service. We're all people who join this job because we like to help people. A lot of the time, if you feel like you're on your own, you're probably not. But you do need to be able to reach out and say, I need some help because people aren't mind readers.

[00:12:04.160] - Host (Lucinda)
That's the hardest bit, isn't it? Accepting that you need some support and that it's okay to ask for help. And like you say, there will be those colleagues who will listen, they will spend time with you to check that you're okay the same way with your family. Everybody wants you to be the best version of you. And it's okay to not be okay all the time.

[00:12:23.840] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Because it's becoming normal and it should be, because we all need to just offload every now and again. We're only human, aren't we?

[00:12:31.150] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
And the thing about that is, as soon as you do that, you realise how supportive people are and how much they go, I didn't know you were struggling with that, I wish I'd known sooner. And actually, the hardest step is admitting to it. But actually it's so much easier from that point because people go, I didn't know, what can I do? How can I help? And the help is there. I mean, previous to this job, I worked in the mental health sector. I was lucky enough to see all the facilities that are out there. So your local councils will have sort of crisis management teams, will have mental health teams with duty officers on support. There are facilities out there. There's self referral, like Mind do self referral. There's loads of different things out there as well. If you're not wanting to speak to people closest to you, that you can still speak to people outside that as well. But as soon as you speak, the help will just fall into place. It seems to just appear, doesn't it? Don't know if that was your experience.

[00:13:22.960] - Station Manger James Crouan
Absolutely. And I think a lot of the time that help comes from places that you would have least expected it as well, because as soon as people find out as you say, that you are struggling, you get other people that have been through similar experiences, or people who just want to help and want to support you, who reach out to you and they'll make that phone say, do you want to go for a coffee? Do you want to go for a walk?

[00:13:47.030] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Some of the best conversations that I've ever had have been round the brew table, sitting down, having a cup of tea, generally a packet of biscuits does it. Blokes are all the same when it comes to food. They tend to open up quite a bit. You all sit down, maybe, and have a team tea. It's just really good to get conversations going.

[00:14:07.870] - Station Manger James Crouan
I think it was quite humbling for me, really, to see just how good that level of help is that's out there. And it's certainly given me something to hopefully take forward and make me better equipped to be able to empathise with other people and support other people when they need it.

[00:14:23.080] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
Yeah and I think you hit it nail on the head there. It's empathy that you get as well. I found I got a lot of empathy, rather than sympathy. I didn't want sympathy. I didn't want to speak out and feel like a victim of myself or a victim of my circumstances. I just wanted someone to listen and someone to be empathetic with me and understand and be supportive, and that's exactly what I got. I wasn't looking for sympathy and all. Poor me. No, I just wanted someone to kind of hear me and let me speak out, really.

[00:14:50.840] - Station Manger James Crouan
And I think that links back into what we started talking about right at the beginning of this, with the stigmas that are attached to mental health, because, as you say, you don't want that sympathy. You don't want people thinking that person's weak, they're not able to do their job anymore. Are they cut out for this? You want somebody to understand and appreciate that your brain just happens to work a little bit differently to other people's and for people to understand that and to help you put in place things that you need to put in place to get you back to, as you said, Lucinda, being the best version of you that you can be.

[00:15:25.770] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Ability to talk, it's a really brave thing to do.

[00:15:31.450] - Host (Lucinda)
It is. It's a brave thing to do and a hard thing to do. But it's normal to speak out, ask for help and just accept that that's okay.

[00:15:41.070] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Yeah, it is okay to not be okay.

[00:15:44.160] - Host (Lucinda)
So building on from that conversation, how would you want to be approached by someone? Or how would you tell someone to approach someone who you think is struggling? Because I know, that people can get quite defensive on how you ask. And I know sometimes being asked, how are you? You're just going to go, I'm fine, I'm fine. And you don't want to be approached in that way. Would there be any advice you'd give to other people?

[00:16:09.320] - Firefighter Davey Byers
It really depends on the person and how well you know that person. I work with quite a large group of people and we spend a lot of time together, so it's easy, easier for me to sort of spot changes in their demeanour and how they are. But in general terms, you just need to just pick a moment where you're on your own with that person and you're unlikely to get any distractions. Really, because if you kind of speak to somebody and they are going to confide in you and open up, it's a very powerful and personal thing sometimes. The last thing you want is the phone ringing or the station turnout going. And then you've got to get on the fire engine and go and deal with whatever you're dealing with. So you know ideally, if you're out of work or if you spot some changes in somebody from, say, do you fancy going for a coffee, first day off or something like that, or you know we'll go for a walk.

[00:17:13.720] - Firefighter Davey Byers
When you say, are you okay to somebody? And we do it all the time, don't we have probably done it about umpteen times today, haven't we? Ask it twice.

[00:17:23.150] - Host (Lucinda)
Yeah,

[00:17:23.620] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Ask them if they're okay and do it twice. Because the first time it's just an automated response from everybody. Yeah, I'm fine. But then when you ask, are you okay the second time, it just gives that person an opportunity to just open that door a little bit and just let them know how you're really feeling.

[00:17:41.320] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I'm okay with being asked, am I okay? That's a check in for me that yes, I'm fine. And now I've got to the point where I'll say, no, I'm not fine, but most people will say they're fine. So it's quite a difficult question because people are going to react differently. For checking in on people, I think just have that conversation, You okay? Do you need anything? And letting the answer come. And if it's not coming, then try and notice if the answer is different or if the behaviour is different. We talk about, how do you know when somebody's not doing very well, well, somebody could be really quiet, somebody could be the other way. You could have gone from mania to sort of depression in no time at all. Or live on one of the sides of that spectrum. For me, it's just that You okay? Do you need anything? No, I'm okay. But you may have different experiences.

[00:18:25.210] - Station Manger James Crouan
No, I wouldn't disagree with anything that you've said there. I think picking your moment is definitely one of the best things to do. Set the scene. If you're pretty confident that one of your colleagues or one of your members of staff or whoever it is, is having difficulties, ask them that question at a point in time where you've got the time to actually talk. You've got the privacy to talk. Ask them if they're okay, but ask them twice because as you quite rightly said, you say You alright, you don't really see yourself. No, I'm fine. I'm fine. It's kind of the stock answer, isn't it? Revisit it. Just say, are you sure you're okay? Because I've noticed that it might be, as you say, it might be, you just seem a bit down today, you don't seem your normal self, you seem a little bit quiet. Accept that you might not necessarily get the answer and the outpouring of emotion from somebody right away on that first occasion as well. You can always use that as an opportunity to say, well, if there is anything that you want to talk about, you know where I am, give me a shout, drop me a text,

[00:19:33.910] - Host (Lucinda)
Offer that support system to know that you're there

[00:19:36.820] - Station Manger James Crouan
And then maybe just revisit it again the following day. There might just be somebody who's having an off day. But if they're having two off days, three off days, four off days, none of us are happy and skipping and joyous the entire time. We're all allowed to have an off day, but it's when every day is becoming an off day, that's when we need to have a little bit of a level of concern for people. And that's when we need to check in and check in again. I think one of the worst things that anybody can do, is give sort of a disingenuous offer of help. To say, I'm always here for you, I'm always here to listen to you and then not to actually come through with it. That can be incredibly damaging to that person. So don't make any promises that you can't keep. But if you're genuinely serious about giving people level of support and care and looking after them, just check in, check in again and let that person lead it. They'll see from your consistency that you are actually genuinely interested in giving them that level of help and support that they need.

[00:20:43.970] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
Yeah, it's like active listening. So not Just saying you're okay and then switching off while you do another task. If you're asking someone if they're okay, if they are going to start talking to you, actively listen, sit there, be in the conversation, let them speak to you, but then, as you said, let them know that you're there and you're going to do something about it. If you can do, you might not be able to fix it, but that may be the first step towards signposting, or you might just need that chat. It's just opening that gateway, isn't it? But active listening, being there. Yeah, I like the double checking.

[00:21:14.960] - Host (Lucinda)
So I'm speaking to Becky. Do you want to touch upon what support is out there for individuals that may be struggling?

[00:21:23.540] - Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford
Yeah, sure. I don't want to overwhelm people with information, and I know you'll be including it in the notes after the episode's aired, but just a few that I think will be really useful for people are the Movember website, which is uk.movember.com. And if they just click on the men's health tab for that, it will give them links to information about spotting the signs of people struggling, how to have a difficult conversation, but also about suicide prevention and sort of men's health in general, like prostate cancer and testicular cancer. So that's a really good one.

[00:21:59.660] - Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford
For anyone that's in crisis, sort of an immediate, wanting some support text Shout to 85258 then they will get immediate support in the hour of need. 
And then just another one, that is very general and really good for wherever you are in the UK is the Hub of Hope and that's Hub of Hope.

[00:22:20.900] - Host (Lucinda)
Oh, I've never heard of that one.

[00:22:22.160] - Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford
All one word, hubofhope.co.uk. It's a mental health database that provides postcode search function. So wherever you are, you can find out the support that's available for you and access it that way.

[00:22:33.270] - Host (Lucinda)
That's amazing. Specifically in our service, do you want to just touch upon what services we have, so people may recognise them in their own organisations?

[00:22:43.530] - Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford
Yeah, sure. I mean, within Lancashire, we've got a range of health and wellbeing resources. Things like The Employee Assistance Programme, which provides short term, solution focused counselling as well as advice, legal advice and medical advice. We've got Occupational Health Unit, we've got a range of Peer Supporters, Wellbeing Support Dogs, which are very popular. And this isn't unique to Lancashire Fire and Rescue, you know, there will be things like that in other organisations, so it might be worth people just checking in with their employer to see what they offer.

[00:23:16.830] - Safety, Health and Wellbeing Advisor Bekki Ford
Also, if you're a serving or retired fire service personnel, that's operational or non operational, The Firefighters Charity is there to support you. Their general sort of support line can be found on the firefighterscharity.org.uk But they've also just launched a crisis line which supports fire service personnel, either serving or retired, if they're experiencing thoughts of suicide. And that crisis line number is 0300 373 0896.

[00:23:51.050] - Host (Lucinda)
What is the one thing you'd want the listeners to take away from today?

[00:23:57.370] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I suppose a simple message is that it's okay to talk, it's good to talk. And that even if you don't think you can find the fix or the resolution, there is things out there to guide you to the right way. So there is help out there.

[00:24:13.410] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Don't be afraid to reach out when you're struggling. People do struggle and they struggle all the time. Life's a struggle, isn't it? And sometimes home life spills over into work life and vice versa as well. But just don't be afraid to put your hands up

[00:24:30.650] - Station Manger James Crouan
Don't just, if you feel that you're struggling, if you feel that it might be something that you need help with, don't, whatever you do, sort of kick it down the road and think, it'll be all right. I'll feel alright next month, I'll feel alright by the time I go on holiday, I'll feel alright by the time it's Christmas, because chances are you won't.  Get that early intervention in, Seek the right, definitely tackle it early. Don't think that if I just put a lid on this, it'll be alright.

[00:24:55.950] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
I also think that you're not alone with it when you're going through this. You feel like, oh, it's me, something wrong with me and you're not. You suddenly realise that nearly everyone around you is going through something as well. So you roll and you're not an individual who's going to have to struggle. And as soon as you talk and speak up, you'll realise that, yeah.

[00:25:14.470] - Station Manger James Crouan
I Think probably one of the other things as well is just following on from what you said there, I know that for me, when I came back into the workplace and I know we talked about this a little bit before we started recording, I felt that as somebody in middle management in this organisation, I really had a responsibility to demonstrate to other people that it is okay to talk about it. It is okay to be open and be that open book about your experiences. And that's certainly what I've tried to do since I came back into the workplace. And it's remarkable the number of other people that as soon as they hear you talking about your own mental health issues will turn and say, do you know what? Me too. Mental health issues. And probably lastly, the one piece of advice that I'd give is treat your mental health in exactly the same way as you treat your physical health.

[00:26:04.290] - Host (Lucinda)
Yeah, that's really important.

[00:26:06.200] - Station Manger James Crouan
We treat our physical health in such a way that we think right, we know what's good for us, we know what's bad for us, we know that eating the right food is good for us, we know that getting good sleep is good for us, we know that getting exercise regularly is good for us. A lot of those things, kind of translate across to your own mental health anyway, just naturally. But also look at what we do in this organisation. Anybody who's operational goes and has a routine medical where we check up and make sure that everything is functioning the way that it should be. Work into your schedule to do the same sort of check and balance of your own mental health and wellbeing because that's really, really easy to neglect. And I think sometimes just saying, right, Do you know what, on such and such a day I'm going to stop and I'm going to take stock a little bit and I'm going to see, Am I doing the things that I know that I need to do to keep myself in a good place?

[00:26:56.850] - Host (Lucinda)
Yeah

[00:26:57.170] - Station Manger James Crouan
Am I behaving in a way that should be setting a few alarm bells ringing to me to think, do you know what? You're starting to struggle and slip a little bit here again now.

[00:27:05.380] - Host (Lucinda)
Do you have any advic, one tip for staying mentally well.

[00:27:09.260] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Yeah. Find a bit of time for something that you really, really like to do. Because, like I say, we're all really busy people, aren't we? But if you can just find something that you like to do or reconnect with something that you liked to do. Like, for me, recently, I've gone back to taking pictures or like going out for a walk or just on my bike or something. But just make that little bit of time. It doesn't have to be like all day, just even half an hour or an hour. You do anything like doing a crossword.

[00:27:41.550] - Host (Lucinda)
Thank you for taking the time to share your stories today. I think it's been a really positive conversation and I think it will help a lot of people out there.

[00:27:50.530] - Station Manger James Crouan
Thank you very much for having us. It's been good thing to be part of.

[00:27:57.290] - Firefighter Gary Fernandez
Yeah Thank you very much

[00:27:58.194] - Firefighter Davey Byers
Thank you

[00:27:58.320] - Host (Lucinda)
All the links that have been discussed in today's episode will be found in the episode notes on whichever streaming platform you find yourself listening to us on.

[00:28:07.310] - Host (Lucinda)
And remember, if you liked our episode, please like and subscribe. And let's make Lancashire safer together.