Embracing Marketing Mistakes
Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show for senior marketers who are looking to grow their brand, double their ROI, and achieve record revenue targets.
Each episode features interviews with industry-leading marketers, as well as solo episodes where Chris and Will share real-life examples of marketing screw up and marketing fails and the occasional actionable insight. These untold stories and new strategies will give you the knowledge to avoid mistakes other marketers have made so you don’t have to.
The show is hosted by Chris Norton and Will Ockenden, who collectively have over 45 years of experience in the PR industry. They have built the award-winning PR agency Prohibition, where they help top organisations with PR strategy, social media marketing, media relations, content marketing, and brand awareness to drive sales and grow businesses.
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Embracing Marketing Mistakes
Is Guaranteed Coverage Really Just Paid Media in Disguise? Chris Pharo Explains
If you’ve ever wanted “guaranteed media coverage,” this episode is a must-listen. We’ve all been there — clients expecting front-page headlines and PR teams doing their best to secure that all-important killer piece. However, many in the PR industry have asked how anyone can guarantee coverage and whether it is just paid content in disguise. In this episode, we were grateful to sit down with Chris Pharo, CEO of 72 Point, to peel back the layers of this contentious issue. We explore why “guaranteed coverage” isn’t always what it seems and what it means for the industry.
As a senior marketer, you know that media relations are vital. But are your PR strategies keeping pace with the rapid evolution of the industry? Chris Pharo, with over two decades of experience navigating the media landscape, shares insights into the changing nature of media relationships and how outdated PR tactics can hinder your brand’s success. From the death of traditional press releases to the rise of digital-first content, we dive deep into what it takes to get meaningful media coverage today.
What happens when a significant PR promise goes awry? Chris recounts the high-profile campaign at 72 Point that didn’t go as planned, leading to negative headlines in PR Week and a bit of social media shitstorm. How did his team recover? And more importantly, how did this experience lead to a complete overhaul of their communications strategy?
Cutting through the noise is harder than ever. Journalists are stretched thin, content is everywhere, and consumers are more skeptical than ever. If you’re tired of outdated tactics that no longer work, this episode offers a fresh perspective on how to rethink your approach to PR and storytelling. Chris Pharo shares why data-driven insights and creative storytelling are key to building impactful media relationships—and how to use them to your advantage.
Whether you’re frustrated by a lack of media traction or curious about how to adapt your PR strategy for 2024 and beyond, this episode is packed with value.
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You use the term guaranteed coverage because if it's guaranteed coverage, it's an advertorial, it's not earned media.
Chris Pharo:A few people made comments on social media that were inaccurate. It was an extremely stressful time. Two members of our team were publicly named online. They were very, very upset by the whole process of being sort of publicly outed for something that was completely inaccurate. We could have been more transparent over time, there's no question about that. On this particular day, every single plate fell, crashed, smashed into a thousand tiny pieces, and I ended up with what I thought at the time was the world's worst news list. So I then had to present literally minutes later in front of the editor of the day. The editor at the time screwed up all of the news schedules from the desk, threw them in my face.
Chris Norton:Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast where we turn other people's marketing fails into brilliant and valuable lessons for you. I'm Chris Norton, your host, ready to dive into today's episode, which promises to be fascinating for anyone wanting to smash a huge campaign anytime soon. Today, I'm excited to say we've got a bit of an exclusive for you. Last week we interviewed Chris Farrow, ceo of 72 Point. Now, if you don't know who 72 Point are, it is a multi-service content agency which describes itself as harnessing unrivaled media relationships and know-how to develop creative and strategic campaigns to generate mass media coverage. And I feel like this is the first podcast we've ever done actually on what I do, which is PR.
Chris Norton:So today we are talking about the media landscape and how it's changed, and Chris has been navigating the media landscape for more than 20 years, initially as a journalist and then as an associate editor and head of news at the Sun newspaper.
Chris Norton:So he's seen firsthand how rapidly things have changed in the media, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worst. He joins us to discuss how earned media is evolving, what it can take to build meaningful media relationships today in the media landscape and why it's time to break away from the old-school traditional PR playbook to embrace destructive storytelling. We'll also hear about high-profile promise they made that didn't go quite as planned and how this led to some negative media headlines and a bit of a social media stop. Chris talks us through that difficult, difficult situation and explains how this led to a complete overhaul of 72 Points' approach to comms. So if you've ever felt frustrated by outdated marketing tactics or struggled to get your brand story heard properly, this episode will give you the tools to rethink your strategy and start building more impactful media relationships. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's learn how to navigate the new rules of media engagement one step at a time. Enjoy Welcome to the show, chris. Chris Farrow.
Chris Pharo:How are you doing? I'm very well. Thanks, Chris. Good to meet you. Good to meet you too, Will, and thanks very much for the opportunity to come on your podcast.
Chris Norton:Yeah, we've been excited to speak to you because you're from a business called 72 Point. We've used 72 Point before at Prohibition, for a few campaigns because we've been going like 13, 14 years. So we have used it for a few consumery campaigns. But do you want to, before we get into who 72Pi are, what they do and how it operates, do you want to just tell us a little bit about your background, because it's quite interesting. You worked for the Sun newspaper from 2002, right? Do you just want to tell us a little bit about how you got into that?
Chris Pharo:Sure Well how I got into it. I sort of fell into it. To be honest, I wanted to be a journalist from a very young age. I ended up working on a local paper, the local district reporter from the Sun. I handed him a few stories, he introduced me up the chain and then I started. When I actually started at the Sun, I was, I think, the youngest reporter on Fleet Street at that stage, so pretty green in my very early 20s, and then it went on from there. I had an aptitude for it, I suppose, and basically went up the ladder.
Chris Pharo:I was on the Sun for about 25 years, all told, 12 of them as head of news, which was a really interesting period of my career. It was under several editors. I was head of news under Rebecca Brooks for a long time. Yes, I was also on the news desk during David Yellen's editorship. I was staff on the Sun when Kelvin McK mckenzie was the editor, and stewart higgins and then and eventually, dominic moan and david dinsmore taking over, which was my, which was when I left the paper and what is some for anyone that doesn't know what what.
Will Ockenden:What does head of news involved in? Are you there looking, you know, just making those editorial decisions on what the paper runs each day. Is that how it works?
Chris Pharo:yeah, in essence, um, we obviously every paper is divided into subsections, so you've got a news section, you've got a feature section, sport, and uh, I oversaw the news operation, which was basically, um, trying to find great stories on a daily basis to fill the pages of the Sun, and at that point it was very heavily print. First we were selling three and a half million copies a day at that point, and so my job was to come in very early in the morning, put together a news list and present that to the editor of the 11.30 conference. I can tell you a story about that if you're interested. The sort of pressure I think because I think this is quite important for the nature of this podcast is to kind of understand the pressure that journalists are under, particularly news editors. So there was a day when I had what I can only describe as the sort of perfect storm of news editing. Right, news editing is a bit like spinning plates. You've got 30 or 40 stories constantly on the go, knowing that you're going to have to find 15 good ones a day or great ones a day in order to make a brilliant edition of the paper.
Chris Pharo:And on this particular day, every single plate fell, plate fell, crashed, smashed into a thousand tiny pieces and I ended up with what I thought at the time was the world's worst news list, which, of course, I then had to present literally minutes later in front of the editor of the day, and I actually showed it to all my colleagues.
Chris Pharo:He said to me you look ashen faced. And I said this is the world's worth worst news list. Oh, it can't be that bad. And he took a look at it and he went ashen-faced as well and said well, good luck with that. Anyway, cutting a long story short, I thought I'd make light of the fact that it was the world's worst news list. In conference it didn't go terribly well. The editor at the time screwed up all of the new schedules from the desk, threw them in my face and by the time I got back to my desk and each had sent an email to three and a half thousand members of staff at the sun, including up to including everybody, including people working in the canteen and the cleaning department and the entire building, asking if anybody had any stories because, um, the news editors couldn't find any, which gives you it's different today.
Chris Norton:I'm talking the sort of mid-2000s when this kind of stuff happened. The heyday, the media, heyday.
Chris Pharo:Basically it was the media heyday and, in fairness, you know, if you're a news editor and you turn up at conference without any stories, you deserve it. Now, I'm sure that doesn't well. I'm not sure it doesn't well, I'm not sure it doesn't happen, but I suspect it doesn't happen today. But it gives an example of the kind of pressure that news editors are under. These are the people that you know the pr agencies and creatives across the board are trying to cut through with. These are the people that they're trying to to persuade to publish their content. So it's it's really challenging. I I can remember thinking that I wouldn't put it on the last page lead in the paper. I can remember thinking that before I walked in it was a grim day but, as I say, I probably deserved it.
Chris Norton:So you said that it was 3.5 million people were buying the Sun and it was like the newspaper of choice. It was driving elections.
Chris Pharo:Yes.
Chris Norton:But today, how does the Sun sit? Today? Is the sun set on the sun or is it because, for me, working in pr, I I've, I think we, we believe that everybody's still reading the media. But just sit on a tube, sit on a uh, a train, and when I lived in london and worked in london, everybody was reading the Metro or the Sun or the Standard. Now everyone's reading their phone and the interesting bit about that is people are now saying people are distracted, they're reading their phones. But back in the heyday everyone had the newspaper out. Anyway, they were reading something because, let's face it, it sat on the tube, it was boring. So my question is where is the Sun today, do you think, compared to where it was when you were there?
Chris Pharo:Well, I mean clearly its circulation has gone down significantly. The Sun doesn't publish its circulation numbers publicly any longer, but popular reports suggest that they're selling less than a million copies a day, and that isn't, of course, just the Sun. The simple truth is, circulations have plummeted at pretty much every print edition of the national media and they've all moved to this strategy of switching to online. But one of the major challenges about online journalism is it's incredibly hard to monetize. You know, people are blind to online ads, so the ad dollar is fewer from people going on to online sites, whether that's the Sun or the Mail or, indeed, you know, the Telegraph or the Guardian.
Chris Pharo:The simple truth is is that it's really hard to monetize online news and if you're not behind a paywall which most of the popular papers like the Sun aren't behind paywalls it becomes a real challenge.
Chris Pharo:And of course, the knock-on effect of that is that those economic problems that are being faced by those publishers ultimately lead to dramatic cuts in staffing, editorial staff at most of the publishers.
Chris Pharo:I mean this time last year, Reach laid off, as I'm sure you recall, some in the region of 350 journalistic staff Terrible amount. What that really means for you know absolutely and what that really means for anybody in the PR industry is that it becomes increasingly difficult to find the people that you can send your releases to or that you can, you can, you can go after in a media relations fashion, which causes a huge amount of frustration in the industry, and I get it. I really understand that. I would say that, um, I was reading some statistics yesterday that suggest that online media is now more prevalent in news gathering and broadcast for the first time, so more people are reading news online than getting their news to broadcast for the first yeah so I do think digital media, online media, is really, really important, and I think that that conundrum as to how the publishing industry is going to monetize and support those models is a really important one.
Chris Pharo:And I don't just think it's important for publishing, I think it's important for the PR industry as well, because I think to your point, chris. I agree with it entirely. When you are sat on a train carriage now, you can see everybody looking at their smartphones. You know quite often they're playing a game, or you know online shopping perhaps, but those that are getting their news through digital media. I think it's incredibly important that we recognize the value of news, and I think consumers out there are still interested in the news. It's just a question of how publishers reach them and with the kind of quality of the content that they're using.
Chris Norton:Really, but the point I was making is the sun, when I cause I did, I did. I've been in PR for my whole life right, not my whole life, but my, my working life and, um, the sun was always the number one newspaper and since it's I'm not going to lie right, whoever's out there I used to write a blog called Dead Dinosaur because I believed that the industry was dying, the media was killing itself. Because it wasn't, it didn't move quick enough. The newspapers were so old school, right, you'll have been there when the newspapers digital was led by. A couple of the newspapers, saw it and jumped on it. Everybody else just sat back and thought, oh, we're not doing anything. They did a little bit of trying to create some websites with news and et cetera, et cetera, but it was so, so slow compared to every other industry. And only now do I feel like the last five or six years they've gone shit.
Chris Norton:Yeah, really, because they tried paywalls. They all tried paywalls. I think paywalls. I think the sun and the times were one of the news court, were one of the first ones to try it, but it was too early for that to to, to, whereas now you've got like forbes and you've got some of the other publications that you know. They. They lead with the story. You get the first two paragraphs and then it's like if you want, you know, hit, pay your two pound a month subscription. So. But my issue with a newspaper like the Sun is it was so powerful then, back then, when you were there, and today I feel like the real one is either Daily Mail, which unfortunately, or the BBC, and they're the ones that are controlling where everybody's going. I'd love to see the percentage of content of news that is the bbc.
Chris Pharo:Now you know that people consume, compared to 20 years ago yeah, look, I agree with you and I think that those the the bbc and the mail online were early adopters of of an online strategy. To answer your question, and I again I agree with, I think that the papers were very slow to adopt online models and I think the main reason for that is it's very difficult to protect content online without it being ripped off, whereas if you've got a newspaper in the morning that's full of great stories with a great front page splash, you have to buy that newspaper in order to read that content. It's very difficult for the papers to compete with that. Now, of course, in an online environment, great exclusives are exclusive for about 30 seconds because every single online publisher will rip off that content. So the advantage that the broadsheets have got in this area, of course, is that people aren't buying them because of great breaking exclusives.
Chris Pharo:I mean, you know, the sun and and papers like it, the mirror, the star, have always you know, I've always traded on sort of great showbiz, salacious showbiz, stories, that kind of stuff. Obviously, the broadsheets don't um, don't go down that road there. People are buying the broadsheets for considered, um, well-written, thoughtful journalism, as opposed to simply breaking news and great exclusive stories, which is the problem that I think those tabloids face. I think the Mail Online is a remarkable success story in terms of its early adoption of an online strategy. I would agree with that entirely.
Will Ockenden:So if we look back, I mean it's probably worth delving into kind of what makes a news story and news values so clearly. Well, I don't know 2002, you know what made a news story in 2002 versus 2024? So how has that changed? You know you talked about this kind of this more shift towards more considered opinion-led content.
Chris Pharo:You know as a brand, as a PR, what do we need to be thinking about now to understood your readership and the kind of content that those readers wanted on a daily basis? So when you put out a newspaper, it was kind of a shot to nothing, but the sales kept coming in. The only real measure you had of the, the success of any given paper, was when the circulation figures came in and they that did kind of guide your thinking. You knew that certain stories, and certain stories about certain people, would sell better than stories about others, and and so that would guide the way, the, the sort of directional nature of the, of how you went about your work. Nowadays, of course, pretty much every single news editor is accompanied by an audience expert who can watch in real time how stories perform, and that opens up a whole new series of questions in terms of online publishing and journalism, because today I think that the sort of reporter as I would describe them, and most people would describe that, I think, is sort of morphing gradually into more of an editor.
Chris Pharo:Many of the journalists on on the uh online editions of newspapers. Now they've got quotas of stories to fill because the publication wants to have a certain number of stories published every day. The publication wants to have a certain number of stories published every day. They're sort of voracious content machines. And not only that, they're also expected to achieve minimum page views on some publishers. They are sort of being measured on the efficacy of the content that they're producing. So when you put stuff in like that, what you kind of get is a much more sort of mechanized approach, if you will, rather than sort of instinctive guesswork coming in. You've actually got hard data directing your decision making and you're under real pressure and that sort of factory farming of content you're. You're under real pressure and that sort of factory farming of content. Um look, ultimately I don't agree with the strategy of some of the uh, the national media in that regard, but I can understand why they're doing it and it's why.
Chris Norton:It's why big content suppliers now are very important to to the publishing world so if you're a marketer now, this year, moving into 2025, we're nearing the end of 2024. I can't believe I'm saying that If you're a marketer in 2025 and you want to get coverage for a story, what's going to work? Because a lot of people don't have PR experience or journalist experience like me and you what do you think they need in their brand story to get coverage in the modern digital? Because we hear a lot, right when we speak to journalists research stories are dead. Right, so that's interesting. Let's go. We'll move into what you guys do next, but that we get that a lot from journalists. Like statistics you know a poll is is dead. So what do you? What do you feel? Is the the the coming ahead to get coverage? What can a marketer do in 2025 to get coverage?
Chris Pharo:yeah, well, let me answer your second question first, and I know we'll come on to it in a bit more detail, uh, later, chris, but um, I don't believe that research stories are dead if they're done properly, and I think you've only got to look at the national media on a daily basis to see that they're still being published in great volume. However, coming back to your point, what does a marketer need to do? I think there is both. I think you hit the nail on the head in the way you mentioned it. You talked about the story and it is all about storytelling. I think you hit the nail on the head in the way you mentioned it. You talked about the story and it is all about storytelling. I think this has been the case for as long as I've been involved in PR and obviously going back much longer. This is about telling stories. We are all in the storytelling business and I think all too often marketers and PR people can be drawn too far into the process.
Chris Pharo:Basically, journalists are very unlikely to care about your brand. They won't care about your brand's message. They don't care about your brand's latest launch or campaign. What they're interested in is stories.
Chris Pharo:I have a former colleague called Doug Shields, who you may have come across, who I've got a huge amount of respect for, and he told me a very simple point when I first started 72 Point.
Chris Pharo:He said whenever he gets somebody, a journalist, on the phone, he always uses one first sentence, which is I've got a story for you. And I think that that advice is really, really important because you have to offer journalists, particularly in the sort of straightened times that we're in for the reasons we've discussed, when there are far fewer of them under a great deal of pressure to produce lots and lots of content. You've got to persuade them. You've got a story, being more specific, about trying to land coverage in digital. It is very clear that every single story in digital is asset rich. So, whether that's a great set of pictures or a brilliant video, or a digital design asset or all three and those ideas, those stories should lend themselves to that kind of visual storytelling. In our opinion and actually, chris, coming back to your point, in terms of research, stories are dead, which I've been hearing since I first started at 72 Point.
Chris Norton:Me too.
Chris Pharo:The reality is elevating those stories through the use of those assets so effectively, using data more as a tool for insight to create a creative spark, if you will, that leads you on to produce that much more effective digital content.
Chris Norton:Infographics.
Chris Pharo:I think infographics are a bit one-dimensional. We do some quizzes and things like that sort of interactive quizzes, which are quite effective in the space. A great gallery of pictures you talked about Mail Online A great gallery of pictures will help with Mail Online, and I think each publisher is different as well. I think you need to recognize what the different aims of those digital publishers are. I often challenge the team at 72 Point to find me a story online that doesn't include a suite of assets with it, mainly because you won't find one. You know whether that's a BBC or the Mail Online.
Will Ockenden:So we talk about storytelling a lot. Do you want to bring it to life for us a little bit and give us an example of how a brand might tell a story in the media and the role research can potentially play in that? A?
Chris Pharo:project I've seen in the last few days coming out of Mischief, where they've sort of jumped on the whole Oasis revival and they've done a project, using some research, talking about 90s crisps that are coming back in fashion. You know, it's everywhere. It's literally appeared in every single national publication in the last couple of days, from the, from the sun to the guardian and everything in the middle. So it is elevated because it is visual. You have to use the pictures of the chris right, and we've all got, you know, our favorite retro chris.
Chris Pharo:It seems remarkably reductive, but our experience is these kind of issues do do very well. You know we've um, we've had some, some real results in in that kind of area ourselves over the last few weeks. We've also discovered that there's an increasing trend of anything that involves Gen Z is really interesting in this space as well. But bringing stuff to life look, I think it comes down to a great set of pictures. If a campaign's got a really, really good set of pictures, it goes with it. Or indeed, actually brilliant case studies All too often we see projects go out that are talking about quite serious issues that aren't brought to life by an absolutely cracking case study that can really elevate that from and make it a very successful piece of content, both for the marketer, but more importantly and I think this is a key point it has to work for the publisher.
Chris Norton:That that comes back to the, the core point, I think so do you want to tell us a bit about 72 point, then, and what you do? Because um 72 point that my experience. We've used them, as I said at the beginning of the pod, um, we've used them probably three or four, maybe five times. Uh, we've used you guys, we've worked alongside when we're doing a bigger campaign, um as part of a. We've used you as, like a part of a tactical element of a wider strategy. So we might be doing a big series of campaigns every year, we might use you for one um and then use some of the stuff that we've done for broadcast and etc. Etc. Um, do you want to? But what was interesting to me is before you joined, chris. I don't know how they were positioned before, but I don't remember you guys being positioned as a PR agency. When I first used them, they weren't described as that and I can't remember when that changed, so maybe you can answer that as well when that happened. That would be interesting.
Chris Pharo:Well, I think I'd qualify that. I don't think we see ourselves as a PR agency. I think we see ourselves as a creative content agency that does some PR Right. So, ultimately, our evolution has gone from doing the kind of research-based news generation you're referring to, chris, which I entirely accept sections of the industry think is cliched, but we've developed that over time to make our content more digital friendly by adding the kind of assets that I've just talked about.
Chris Pharo:I think that ultimately, in this space we are, we're developing our services as our clients, at our clients behest. Really as we're growing as a business, uh, as we're retaining different clients, those clients are saying to us that they're asking us to to effectively test our legs a bit. So we have brought some, some more creative expertise into the business, but at our heart we are about creating content. I suppose the only evolution, chris, from the business that I joined eight years ago is it still does research-based news generation, but it does other stuff as well and it's about constantly enhancing that output really, so that we're sort of staying with the way that the media is changing.
Chris Norton:Yeah, because the media is changing and so some would say it's a great idea, a philosophy on the business that you've built. So to explain my understanding of how you work, I think how we got involved was you've got a research company that is part of the group called OnePoll. Yeah, company that is part of the group called um one poll yeah, and they do. They do market research with omnibus survey. You know a thousand, two thousand people in the uk, so a pr agency might use um, the research company, to create craft a. You know a series of questions that will give you a news hook, right? I think that's maybe how we we came in to use you guys originally, and then you've got two or three other businesses under that umbrella, don't you? You have a design agency, is that right?
Chris Pharo:Yeah, exactly so. Onepole is part of the business and we use them to produce the data that we use for NewsHooks, essentially at 72. But we've built out our services. We now have Oath Design, which is our design studio, principally making the digital assets I referred to earlier, and we also acquired Pimpep last year, who, in my opinion, are the best PR photographers in the business, and we brought them in for the same reason Effectively, we want to elevate our campaigns with great assets, and that's what those guys do. The vast majority of Pimpep's work, however, is being done for other creative agencies who are fully in that PR agency space, who are doing fully integrated campaigns, and we provide a service to those clients.
Chris Norton:So when I explain to some clients because they don't know who the Press Association are, are the Press Association then essentially a competitor of 72 Point? Is that right?
Chris Pharo:I don't think we view them as competitors. They're a similar business because obviously our sister company is SW&S. So the way that we do our business I think there's been quite a lot of confusion over this over time and I have to say we perhaps haven't been as transparent as we might have been on the subject. What we do is we craft page-ready content. So a brief will come in from a client whether that's an agency like your own, chris, or a brand occasionally direct, and that brief we will come back with an answer. So we'll create that news hook or that creative idea that we think is going to land in the media. And we often talk about how we've got two clients, one that's paying us, but also the publishers, and we're always very, very focused on what we'll make within the media. So we'll come up with that idea.
Chris Pharo:What then happens is a process of media testing with our colleagues at SW&S. So every idea that we come up with, we bounce off them, we refine and then we hone, principally because they won't put anything on the SW&S wire that hasn't gone through that really lengthy, important process, because the integrity of the SWNS wire is everything and our content goes out in the wire effectively is fully formed, page-ready news content with the assets all with it. And I think there's a lot of confusion about the wire. The wire is essentially a sort of closed email system through which we send content from SWNS directly into the news desks of over 100 publications national, regional and increasingly international so that content feed is incredibly important to the publishers. Pa is similar, but the shareholders at PA are all of the publishers, so it sits apart from us really in that regard and I think it plays a very different role than SW&S does. They're similar in that they both have a wire, but we don't perceive PA as yeah, because a lot of marketers won't know what a newswire is.
Chris Norton:A newswire, for those that don't know, is a service where you can send your press releases to a newswire. You can pay the newswire, they'll take your press release I don't know for a certain amount of money and then they will send it out on a newswire and it can get some coverage, sometimes depending on the strength. Again, as to what you were just saying, chris, it's down to the strength of the story. If it's completely a sales-orientated story, then it's probably not going to get as much coverage as if it's an absolutely fascinating story and you put it on any newswire. There's several different newswires, from PR newswire to yours to PA. There's numerous ones.
Will Ockenden:So that I can understand the relationship between all these companies. Are SW&S objective in as far as the stories they take, in the way that you'd imagine a news editor on the Sun would be objective? Or do they, you know, do they critically appraise a story you would give them and only put out what they deem to be of editorial merit?
Chris Pharo:Absolutely 100%. Swns has very, very strict editorial guidelines and our processes. So 72 Point and SW&S are run independently and that crossover is a really, really important part of our business. So 72 Point will create its work but ultimately that work then goes to SW&S and they will push back on anything they do not believe is editorially robust or newsworthy. So this is a daily. Before I sat down to do the podcast, I can see four or five stories that are in progress and the back and forth between the editorial teams at SWNS and 72Point is incredibly robust.
Chris Pharo:And just on your point about press releases, chris, I think what 72Point does is it creates ideas that we believe are extremely newsworthy and therefore going to get picked up, and I think that's you know why we've. We've run into trouble over using phrases like guaranteed coverage, which was lazy on our part, because, yeah, we're not guaranteeing coverage, what, what, what? We, we are guaranteeing coverage, but what we left out of that was saying we guarantee coverage or we will pay your money back. We, we got quite lazy about the use of the phrase and we weren't the only people who used it, obviously going back a few years, but that basically yeah, I can.
Will Ockenden:I can see that's a problematic phrase, because I was going to say obviously you know from what you say, southwest um swns, rather, is is objective, and it sounds like the scenario is when you will see them a story and it will get pushed back. They don't want it. So I suppose, how do you ensure that object, that independence, I suppose, given that you're all part of the same group, in effect, and how do you kind of communicate that? Because for me, communicating that message is so important, isn't it? And probably messages like guaranteed coverage undermine that independence. Is that fair?
Chris Pharo:Yeah, I think that is a fair point and obviously we've learned a lot through this process and I think that it's very clear that we could have been more open about our processes, and I'm sorry that we weren't. We could have been more transparent over time. There's no question about that. But to answer your question, that independence is key and ultimately SW&S provides a wire to the publishers. So the content on that wire has got to be absolutely first class. It's got to be strong content, it's got to be editorial robust, it's got to be newsworthy.
Chris Pharo:So it is not in the interest of SW& to put anything, um, that would emanate from 72 point that didn't tick all of those boxes and we go through that process on a daily basis with them. So our, we, we, we reject far more content than we ever put on the wire. So you talk about press releases, chris, and offering a you know, a wire service in that regard. We reject 95% of the content that is sent to us in that regard. So if somebody else comes up with an idea, we will reject that very often because we don't think it passes the necessary test for the wire.
Chris Norton:For those of you that don't know what's happened, I'll explain. In October was it October last year? A couple of PR people who I sort of know on Twitter talked about the fact that you use the term guaranteed coverage. And how can somebody guarantee coverage? Because if it's guaranteed coverage, it's an advertorial, it's not earned media.
Chris Norton:Now, for those marketers that don't work in PR, do you really care about it? Well, if you're a PR person, like I am, we're all about authenticity, earned media. That is a key part of what we do and we say to a client you can't just put a story out and it'll get published. That's the battle PR people face all the time. We've got clients going, I want you to get me coverage about this story, and we go okay, we need to craft a story around that. It's not just that, and if you want to get that in the press, you're going to have to pay for an advert or you're going to have to do an advertorial. So I can see that.
Chris Norton:So that story sort of broke that people said guaranteed coverage is not a thing, and PR Week did an article on the 17th of October and several people had comments about it. So that's what we're talking about, isn't it Chris? So what happened at your end, then, in terms of how did you deal with that? What happened? Just walk me through what happened and then where you're at. Okay.
Chris Pharo:So if you go back, you're right. It was was last october and what in? In actuality, what happened? A a few people made comments on social media that were inaccurate, which effectively didn't understand our processes and how we go about our work. Um, I think that some of those people uh an agenda, but I completely understand that. Other people then picked up on that and ran with it and I have to say it was an extremely stressful time.
Chris Pharo:At 72 Point, two members of our team were publicly named online and pictured to extremely professional, hardworking young women within the team who, because we act with probity and completely ethically, that effectively they were very, very upset by the whole process of being sort of publicly outed for something that was completely inaccurate. Pr Week picked up on the story because of the scale of comments on social media. And again I come back to my point I we should have been more transparent about our processes leading up to that, because there is clearly a lack of understanding in the market about how we actually work. What we subsequently done is we. It did cause a great deal of introspection on our part. So we thought, you know, we looked at ourselves. It came out of nowhere. Really, we weren't expecting it.
Chris Pharo:So we looked at ourselves and we brought in the industry expert, stuart Bruce, who came into the business and he conducted a six week review where we, with full openness within the business, full transparency he looked at all of our processes, interviewed several members of the team and I'm pleased to say that his report the issue six weeks later said that we're not only ethical in what we do, we're actually ultra-ethical because, in truth, the content that we're putting on the wire has to go through a really assiduous process before we get it there. We don't make claims in our content that we can't back up with evidence, for example, or indeed that our stories are always based on really robust research, and we are that. That's the beauty, uh, to an extent, of working with a newswire, because it means we have to go through these multiple jump, these multiple hurdles to get our content to the quality that we believe it is and, and I think, our coverage outcomes show on a daily basis.
Chris Norton:Yeah, so I think that's where the confusion is isn, believe it is, and I think our coverage outcomes show on a daily basis. Yeah, so I think that's where the confusion is, isn't it Because people have seen that story and then they've gone. Oh right, okay, so I've sent a. I've got a comment about someone sending a. I need to find it. Oh, here we go. There's a lady called Iona who tweeted me and she put when I pitch a Reach PLC journalist, why do I get a reply from 72-point account team asking if I want to buy their PR services? So what would we say to that? That's a valid question.
Chris Pharo:Obviously, I've seen the tweets, so you know I saw the question you put out. Look, I think ultimately that's a very difficult question to answer without more information. However, what we do have occasionally is sometimes our team are bylined in the national media. Just briefly explaining why that happens Half our team are trained writers and they actually write the content. So because it's page ready, they author the, the stories that go out, and so sometimes they go on the wire with their byline on and they get, then get used in the media, and sometimes creatives see those names in the media, assume that they are staff people at that publication and reach out to them in that fashion. But I don't know if that's the case in this tweet, and if Iona wants to get in touch with me directly, I would be more than happy to look into it.
Will Ockenden:On that point, actually. So let's imagine a scenario where Prohibition has got five trained writers journalists, working for us. If they write a newsworthy bylined article and pitch it to Southwest News Service, is it plausible that we could be quoted? We could be bylined in the national media as well, you know. Does that happen in other cases? Or is it just you know, your writers that are bylined by SWNS?
Chris Pharo:Well, that's an interesting question in so much as I don't think that has ever happened. So you know it's kind of hypothetical. I think the issue with any other PR agency that generally the content is sent in, however well, it's written as a press release and press releases need work, which is obviously one of the reasons that they represent a barrier to publication. Um, on the assumption that you sent in a piece of extremely newsworthy, interesting content that had been written in the house style of sws and needed absolutely no work to put it on the wire and they thought there was value in putting it on their wire, then I'm sure they would do, and they do. They do put stories out for other agencies occasionally. But I should be very clear on this point. Clearly we are sister companies and our business model does mean that 72 Point works extremely closely with SW&S. That's just the way the business operates.
Will Ockenden:But entirely independently as well.
Chris Pharo:Well, it's under the same share ownership, Will, but we are run as sister companies. As I say, one of the things that Stuart Bruce looked into in his report was that editorial independence and, as I say, he's come out with a report that shows we're not only ethical but we're compliant with the PRCA and the CIPR codes in terms of how we work. So he must have seen enough evidence of those editorial standards in process.
Chris Norton:Yeah, and Stuart is a friend of the show. He's been on the show twice, which some people have been on twice, but he's one of the only two or three people I have and he's my former boss, so I know how he operates and I would trust his opinion. If he's gone through, because I know what he's like, he'll be very diligent and have gone through everything, which is good. So you've answered that. I've got one other question, which was someone said what percentage? Because you mentioned earlier, right, that 95% of people that pitch to the SWNS Newswire get batted off. Sorry, that's not good enough. So somebody else said okay, what percentage of your campaigns? 72 points campaigns fail, you know, because the point is, whatever 72 point do always seems to get coverage. Is that true or is that just one of the media misunderstandings? No, because it's all going on between the two. From what you've said this morning, it's like between the two. It's like does this, is this okay? No, it's not. You need to change that is that. Is that the relationship, the symbiotic relationship you're talking about?
Chris Pharo:yeah, look, it very much is a symbiotic relationship and and I've seen, I've seen the tweet again and um, our business is set up that, should we have a story that goes awry, we have got several options afterwards right, we can flip it, right. We one of our practices is that when we do uh research, we will often ask additional questions so that we've got another line that we can refresh a piece of content with um. The wire is enormously effective in terms of landing landing coverage for 72 point. There is no question about that um. And increasingly, as this process of of reporters moving into sort of more like more closer to editing roles, that process is becoming even more straightforward because it's page ready wire written content. For example, you take Reach. Reach have a proprietary AI called Gutenbot and there are two agencies that are plugged into Gutenbot and Reach. So the entirety of Reach One is PA, the other is SWNS, and what Gutenbot does is that when this content arrives at Reach, gutenbot will write three separate versions of that content and it will send those three separate versions to the desk heads at Reach, the editors at Reach reach, to make a decision whether to publish or not.
Chris Pharo:And when you've got the challenges I mentioned earlier, you've got publications trying to hit quotas of content on a daily basis. If you've got a newswire that's producing 50 to 100 stories a day and a very small number of those are properly researched, quality pieces of content in the way that 72 point produces its work, then ultimately it's a seamless process towards publication. You haven't got that barrier in the middle that that pretty much everybody else in the pr industry faces, which is ultimately why we achieve the coverage we do. I think you you know, in the last month alone we have had coverage, obviously across a sweep of tabloids, which is our core work, but we've had coverage in the Telegraph, the Guardian, the Times, all on several occasions, because we're building out the way that we operate at 72 Point as well and really focusing heavily on that quality, which again is something that I think is really important for our evolution.
Chris Pharo:So, to answer the question, I can't give you a specific percentage of how many of our projects fail. If they do fail, we go again and try to make sure that we improve them so that they reach the minimum KPIs we've agreed with the client. But they do occasionally fail and if they do, we refund our clients 100% of the time, but the truth is not. Many of our projects fail. That's the answer.
Will Ockenden:To what degree do you think this shitstorm is a result of frustrations within the industry when it comes to landing coverage and getting cut through?
Chris Pharo:I think it's partly that and I think it's partly our lack of transparency. I think that you know on a personal level, when I came into this business eight years ago, I was pretty naive. I didn't know much about PR. Some would argue I still don't know much about PR and I wouldn't necessarily question that I'm from a news background. 72 Point is quite a niche area of the market. We don't pretend to be anything else particularly. I think that that naivety For example, we didn't even have any FAQs on our website before this happened last October and we should have had that.
Chris Pharo:We should have been more open about and transparent about our processes.
Chris Pharo:I wish I'd asked Stuart Bruce to conduct his review two years ago because we'd have responded with that review, but I didn't feel it was necessary at the time and that was an error on my part.
Chris Pharo:But I do think it is partly borne out of the frustrations that effectively, I think I've read statistics that suggest there are seven PR people in this country to every journalist now and as that PR funnel widens and the spout narrows, ultimately it's going to become harder and harder for people to achieve coverage. And there we are because of the way we work, because we have access to the SWNS wire, achieving coverage, you know, day in, day out, and I accept that that's caused issues with some people. I accept that that's caused issues with some people, and I get it, and I do sympathize with those agencies that are putting out high-quality work, because there are lots and lots of them. Hello, exactly, chris, but we see that pass our shores and there is a lot of stuff that I see on a daily basis that does deserve to be published. But, as I say, the single biggest issue facing, I think, the PR industry is the parlous state of the publishing world.
Chris Norton:Yeah, and to add to your point there, chris, is I've seen well, we've noticed in the last 12 months, there's now ability for PR agencies and others to upload their news directly to news outlets, which to me is mental. So I'm imagining that behind that gateway is another. What did you call it? It wasn't Gollum from Lord of the Rings. What was it called? The AI? Gutenbot Gutenbot, not Gollum Gutenbot. I imagine that those newspapers have got a Gutenbot AI, because that was one of the questions I was going to say. Do we think that the news editor role is going to be AI generated? It sounds like Gutenbot is doing exactly that. It's selecting the news, trying to generate news that fits the right title, each title, removing the need for the journalist to tailor every single piece of content, making it quicker. So what do we think is the near, near future, the next five, ten years, what? What do we think is going to happen to the media space? Is it going to become more ai generated, and is that a good or bad thing?
Chris Pharo:look, there's no doubt that certain parts of the industry are going to go to go down that road. Uh, I mean there there is. There is no way, in my opinion, that publishers that are currently struggling in the marketplace are going to find a sort of silver bullet that's going to bring back the good times. So the only way that they're going to be able to monetize news better is by spending less in terms of their news gathering operations. So I think they will become more reliant on trusted sources of content and, of course, that does present an opportunity for the PR industry if it can adapt in the way you suggested, actually. Well, if the PR industry could adapt and start producing that kind of content, recognizing there is a necessity to produce content that works for publishers, that isn't brand messaging heavy, all the other challenges that a press release represents, that could become an opportunity rather than a problem.
Chris Pharo:I mean, we have noticed recently and I won't name any names, but we've noticed a few agencies that are beginning to adopt this. There are several that have started to put page-ready content on the top of their press releases. There is another that has got a chief reporter right, that's hired a chief reporter and is issuing press releases using that name for exactly this reason, you know, and ultimately we are all in the I believe we're all in the content production space, we're all telling these stories, producing the content that supports those stories right, and finding that way through, I think, makes a good deal of sense. So, to answer your question, chris, I think that those the publishing groups or the publishers, the papers that are very successful because they're behind paywalls and have got a proven business model that's working, I suspect they'll continue to invest in journalism, but I suspect those others that are challenged from a commercial aspect will continue to reduce costs and will deploy AI where they can.
Chris Norton:What about local news? Local news worries me. Everybody still wants really great local news. Local news worries me. Everybody still wants really great local news. Right, local news I mean, I'm talking like on the macro, on the micro level, right right, really, really local, hyperlocal, that's what they call it hyperlocal news. Everybody still wants that good quality hyperlocal news, do you? But just, I just see the newspapers just getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and it's then it's that the role for something like Facebook groups, because the big area I've seen is hyper-local Facebook groups, which is almost citizen journalism in effect.
Will Ockenden:Is that where things are going at that kind of hyper-local level?
Chris Pharo:Well, I think you raise an interesting point because you say that everybody wants local news but they're not prepared to pay for it. And I think that's the crucial point in this. You know, I still look back fondly on my days 30-odd years ago working on the Bracknell News, which you know. I still look back on those years fondly when we used to sell in a small town like Bracknell, 26,000 copies. I mean, that's unbelievable today to anybody that 26,000 local residents would go out and buy a broadsheet newspaper. So I think that hyperlocal, I think it is really important.
Chris Pharo:I think that there are a number of providers out there that are trying to do it, but ultimately, until people are prepared to put their out there that are trying to do it, but ultimately until people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets to pay for it, it becomes a challenge. And I think the other thing that needs to be recognized in that regard is that, of course, businesses like SW&S are quite reliant on stuff that comes out from local publications, because it's that kind of stuff that they're turning into content for the national media and it's damaging to every sort of link in the chain, if you will, up to and including the nationals. I think also one of the challenges and you mentioned the BBC earlier, Chris is that their amount of investment in local news gathering has been really, really, really damaging to the local regional media, because if people can find out what's going on in, I think you're in- Leeds, aren't you?
Chris Pharo:we're based in Leeds, yeah if people can find out what's going on in Harrogate by jumping on the BBC, why do they need to go and buy their local paper or go on to their local newspaper site? And that becomes a challenge. And again I think that I think, for for really challenging commercial reasons, the big local publishing groups are taking some, some difficult decisions about what those sites now look like, and I think that again is is a challenge for all of us really I, I genuinely feel my my view on this, on localized, hyperlocal news.
Chris Norton:I genuinely feel if you said to someone, will you pay 199 a month? Right, if you're listening to me, lovely light keeps going out. If you're listening to me now, editors, I would say give your news free for the next and give it in an email format so they get it every day and get them tied into a habit of getting your email on a freemium model. Copy the big tech companies, give them great, free, localized content for two to three months and then say do you want nine? Our fee is now 99p a month. I, I think everybody would pay that and you'd make more money out of 99p a month for your email newsletter for localized, brilliant news. And I just don't understand why the big newspapers haven't figured that out because they could make money. There is money to be made out there if they just think about the model. Just copy the big tech companies, you don't have to. There's such behemoths.
Will Ockenden:That's the problem with these. The alternative I think would work is micropayments for articles. So rather than a kind of one-size-fits-all subscription and I've seen that a little bit where you pay 30 pence, 50p, to read one article. Actually, if they can figure out a way to do that, I think that could be the way to go, or a donation, or a donation like Wikipedia, the donation model.
Chris Norton:I'd be interested. But if it's just a small amount, it doesn't have to be a lot, because lots of small amounts people will pay for good quality news. Well, thanks for coming on the show, chris. How can people find you if they want to get in touch with you about what you do?
Chris Pharo:Well, people can drop me an email at chrisferro72pointcom. I'm quite happy to receive emails from people if they want to get in touch in that regard, or they can drop me a line on LinkedIn.
Chris Norton:Okay, great. Well, thanks for joining us and thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you all in the next episode.
Chris Pharo:Thanks very much guys, thanks everyone.
Will Ockenden:Thanks, Chris Bye.
