The Stronger Self Podcast
#001 - Breaking Free from Binge Eating: Kathryn Hansen Talks About Quitting Binge Eating Forever
Join me as I candidly share my decade-long grapple with binge eating and the breakthrough I found in Kathryn Hansen's book, Brain Over Binge. Kathryn, a beacon of hope for those battling binge eating and bulimia, graces the Stronger Self podcast to unravel her 18-year recovery journey. We converse intimately about binge eating, the distinctive ways it manifests, the detrimental role dieting plays, and the importance of nourishing the body adequately for sustainable weight loss and a healthy metabolism.
Kathryn and I delve into the psychology behind binge eating, discussing how often we seek reasons and excuses, inadvertently justifying the behavior. We examine therapy's benefits and potential pitfalls, and how approaching recovery with a fresh perspective can empower you to rise above binge eating. Our conversation also highlights how labeling certain habits as self-violence can open up new ways of understanding and resisting them. We draw parallels with entrepreneur Brian Johnson's insights about self-harm and share how therapy can illuminate these insights.
As we round up our conversation, we focus on the power of moderation and balance in our relationship with food, and how the freedom to eat can be as important as abstaining from certain foods. We explore how the Brain Over Binge approach helps manage urges to binge eat, emphasizing that recovery doesn't promise a perfect life, but it certainly paves the path to a healthier one. Join us on this journey to understanding and overcoming binge eating, and remember, it's okay to seek support during your recovery journey. You're not alone in this fight.
Join me as I candidly share my decade-long grapple with binge eating and the breakthrough I found in Kathryn Hansen's book, Brain Over Binge. Kathryn, a beacon of hope for those battling binge eating and bulimia, graces the Stronger Self podcast to unravel her 18-year recovery journey. We converse intimately about binge eating, the distinctive ways it manifests, the detrimental role dieting plays, and the importance of nourishing the body adequately for sustainable weight loss and a healthy metabolism.
Kathryn and I delve into the psychology behind binge eating, discussing how often we seek reasons and excuses, inadvertently justifying the behavior. We examine therapy's benefits and potential pitfalls, and how approaching recovery with a fresh perspective can empower you to rise above binge eating. Our conversation also highlights how labeling certain habits as self-violence can open up new ways of understanding and resisting them. We draw parallels with entrepreneur Brian Johnson's insights about self-harm and share how therapy can illuminate these insights.
As we round up our conversation, we focus on the power of moderation and balance in our relationship with food, and how the freedom to eat can be as important as abstaining from certain foods. We explore how the Brain Over Binge approach helps manage urges to binge eat, emphasizing that recovery doesn't promise a perfect life, but it certainly paves the path to a healthier one. Join us on this journey to understanding and overcoming binge eating, and remember, it's okay to seek support during your recovery journey. You're not alone in this fight.
Welcome to the Stronger Self podcast. I'm Mike, and together we're going to explore the world of self-help books and I'll share my personal experiences and the transformations that they've sparked in me along the way. Today we're talking about binge eating, and binge eating is the struggle that became the catalyst for this podcast. I've struggled with binge eating for almost a decade, and each time I'd give into a binge, i would try to tighten down my dieting, only to find myself spiraling more and more into binge eating the harder I pushed into dieting and fasting and things like that. So, in search of a solution for that, i ran a couple of programs to find the top 10 self-help books on quitting binge eating, and these books were carefully selected, based on ratings and reviews of real people that were able to overcome binge eating, and my hope was that, in going through 10 of these books, i'd be able to find some actionable steps that I could take to quit binge eating once and for all. I read three books with little success, and then I came to the fourth book, which is Katherine Henson's book Brain Over Binge, and this book is the one that really worked for me. I know that binge eating is a very personal struggle and the way to overcome binge eating is going to vary person to person, but I honestly believe that if you haven't found something that works yet, if you go through her book by the time you finish it, you might not ever binge again. Once I started Katherine's book a couple of months ago, i haven't experienced a single binge episode Now. My diet hasn't been perfect. I've overeaten, but I've never binged. Even at one point I tried to induce a binge and it led to what she defines as a mini binge in her book. But even in the middle of that I felt differently and I think differently now. I was overwhelmed with gratitude and actually reached out to Katherine and asked her if she would join me on an episode to talk about her book and answer some questions about binge eating, and I'm excited to tell you that I'm going to play that interview here momentarily.
Speaker 1:Katherine has celebrated 18 years of recovery from binge eating and bulimia and in her book she gives you all the gritty details of everything she went through, from her struggle with bulimia and binge eating to going through hours and hours and hours of counseling and therapy ultimately what it took for her to quit this cycle of binge eating and excessive exercise. Out of all the books that I read, i felt like Katherine's story struck a chord in me the most because she would do these binge eating episodes and then follow them up with days of excessive exercise on a bike or running. And I felt like that mirrored my own story the most, because I would have binge eating episodes and then I'd follow it with strict, extreme fasts or extreme days of working out, just so that I wouldn't see any sort of fluctuation on the scale. I was so scared of going backwards and actually my binge eating got worse the more weight I lost. At one point I lost 80 pounds and my binge eating was the worst. At my lowest weight I've since gained weight, but at my lowest I was so scared of going back up that I was doing these extreme things to keep from it and it just kept leading into more and more binge eating. But the way that Katherine breaks down her story and then the way that she was able to overcome binge eating is super easy to follow.
Speaker 1:And this interview comes in where I've welcomed Katherine to the chat, i've explained the podcast and my goals for it, how I've been going through books and how I got to her book, and her story just resonated with me. And because the story resonated with me, i was able to immediately apply some of the things that she was doing in her book. And before I had finished the book, i had already seen progress. And I think if you listen to Katherine, you hear her story and you apply it, you'll be able to see the progress that I have. Here's Catherine.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. It's a very big compliment and I am just really glad that it resonated with you. People tell me that sometimes that, like my story is what kind of draws them in, because you see yourself in that and you think, okay, i'm alone in this. And when you read someone else's story you're like, oh wait, i'm not alone. And so many people have told me that, like, i can assure you that you're not alone. Anyone listening to this is not alone. And, um, you know, it's kind of hard to put my story out there, like it's kind of embarrassing. I was a little nervous, but now it's been so many years that it's fine. But, um, yeah, i'm glad I went forward with it and did that, because it's helped a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Each one is such a personal journey And even I'm going through your recovery guide right now. You talk about defining binge eating and how it's like kind of different for each person what a binge looks like. But just my own personal story is over the last eight years I've tried to diet to lose weight And I've, i guess, as I've progressively gotten more intense in dieting, the more intense the binge eating had become. And the worst of it was when I was doing alternate day fasting, because I would go 40 hours fasting And then I would because I had all these calories I could consume in a day. You know, i could consume three or 4,000 calories, based on what would actually work to lose weight, but then I I couldn't stop. So then, whenever I stopped doing alternate day fasting, i just kept bingeing every once in a while And between doing the fasting and then also I would do these days that you talked about in your book where it was like I would just try to walk all day long or I would try to walk and work out, and walk and work out and to keep from gaining the weight of.
Speaker 1:You know my misstep, and sometimes I'd be out eating with people And I know most of the time. Binge eating, i would do privately, but sometimes I would just overeat. I would get some from people and people would be like where does it go? Because you just eat so much. But then they didn't see the next day where I was like starving myself or just trying to do like just crazy amounts of exercise, you know, and stuff like that. And I feel like when I heard your story I was like, okay, you understand where I'm at, so let me see how you did it, and then I should be able to do it too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that cycle of dieting it just sets you up to binge. I mean especially the starvation you feel like fasting is promoted as something that's healthy, but it's really telling your body and brain that you're starving. And when that happens I talk a lot about, as you know, in the book it gives you this primitive survival instinct that, like your body is trying to save you. It's not like something is wrong with you. And I think that's sort of the saddest part in all. This is people think, oh, i'm just weak, i'm something's wrong with me, i can't stick to my diet. But dieting is so unnatural. We're meant to nourish ourselves, we're not meant to be in the state of starvation. So if anyone out there is also caught up in this, like, just know that there's nothing wrong with you but that, like you found, you do have to stop the dieting in order to get an end on this, Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was one of the things that I learned. That made saying no, And I don't want to give too much of it away right now. But saying no to the urges is easier when you're, when you're not starving yourself, And I've actually lost more weight by increasing the amount of calories I eat every day, just so I'm like full and satiated And I'm not like fighting hunger plus this thing in my mind that won't go away that says hey, like just start tomorrow, like just have one more day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, i think for the vast majority of people who struggle with this, eating just a normal diet, like a normal nourishing amount of food that's ample and that's satisfying to your body, ends up being a lot less calories than what you actually eat when you're dieting and binging.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So hopefully that's making sense to people. It's like you don't want to give up the restriction because you think, oh, i have to control myself, i have to eat less, when actually eating less is leading you to eat way more.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So it's great that you're seeing that nourishing yourself, satisfying you know your hunger and all that is actually leading you to lose weight, because you're probably eating less overall and in a much healthier, sustainable way. That sets you up for like a lifetime of a healthy metabolism, instead of this starving, binging and all that.
Speaker 1:Right, You give a brief description in the recovery guide that I like, but just overall to help somebody identify okay, this is for sure this sort of binge eating thing. What is the definition that you would start with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I mean there's sort of a clinical definition. I mean there is a clinical definition of a binge in the DSM, which you know. I'll kind of briefly summarize it. It's eating in a specific period of time and they give an example of a two hour period, an amount of food that's definitely larger than a normal person would eat under similar circumstances. So it's just like kind of objectively, if you saw someone eating that amount you'd be like whoa, that's way more than anyone should be eating in the situation. So that's kind of an amount. It's like a quantity, but there's also like quality to it, in that you eat faster than normal.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of shame involved. It's usually done in secret. A huge key in the definition is feeling like you're out of control. That lack of control, i think, is probably the most key part of the definition, because people can eat maybe less food but still feel completely out of control And I would still say you know subjectively that could be a binge. So, like you mentioned earlier, there is subjectivity around it. But when you look at the quantity, when you look at the way of eating, it's just way more food in a much more abnormal way of eating than you know people do on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, i felt like the majority of my binges would be like 30 minutes, but they would just be so out of control. Whole packs of cookies are kind of like you were saying full boxes of cereal, just like going nonstop. Finding the reason to let go and go wild or whatever is also a thing too. There was like a mental component of like giving into something rather than just being like, oh, I'm hungry and I want a snack.
Speaker 2:It was like there was something that I had to do and I was fighting with it And then something flips and you kind of find that sort of justification or you think, okay, well, screw it, i'm just going to eat everything in sight.
Speaker 2:There is that sort of mental flip that you give in to. What I talk about in the books is more of that primal drive, that primitive brain instinct to just eat as much as possible, in a way of self-protection, and that's something we can get into more. But there definitely is a component of like not feeling like yourself or feeling like you're maybe washing yourself, do this thing that you know you don't really want to be doing, but kind of in the moment you feel like it's all you want to be doing until it's done, and then you feel shame and guilt and all that. It's definitely an experience that I never would have understood unless I experience it for myself. Like having these urges, giving into them, eating this massive amount of food, like I just never saw that as something I would ever do. But when you experience these urges for yourself, it feels like you don't have a choice in that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you almost feel like at least for me it felt like out of control, like my mind and my body were fighting with each other And like even while I was doing it I would be telling myself like, hey, you should stop, You should really stop, but then feeling like you can't stop. You know, there were quite a few moments. The one that really kind of got me was I got a call from my bank one time because on the way back from work one day I stopped at like four different fast food places and was just eating the whole drive back. So for like 35 minutes in the car I stopped at every fast food place, nearly in my bank thought it somebody stole my car.
Speaker 1:Yeah so they put, they put a hold on it And I didn't realize it. I went to work the next day And one of the applications I use for work it's like a subscription type thing And the app wouldn't work And I was like I don't know what the deal is. So I, after I got done with the job, I called and it was because the card was shut down And I was like, wow, this is like too much. I can't. You know, I'm like getting in my own way and fighting with it.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if there's a lot of guys that tend to dismiss some of the things we kind of go through as just like I'm not going to talk about this or this is not a big deal, Or whenever I was listening to a lot of the testimonials I know there are men in there, but I feel like predominantly maybe women are reaching out, or men aren't reaching out as often or as frequently, or maybe something in my own mind did this for so long before. I was like, okay, I need to really tackle this on and and some of that takes labeling it and taking the steps forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think there's kind of a misconception that, oh, this is something that only women struggle with. But I definitely don't think that's the case.
Speaker 2:I mean I would say I get to majority women. Maybe for every nine women there's one or two men. You know that. Contact me or reach out and there is more awareness. I think that it does occur in males, and males do have different standards for their body image. And dieting comes into play and the same reaction that happens, you know, i re identify. I mean this is your primal brain. This is a deep part of your brain that is designed to protect you and that is designed to. It also builds habits. I mean once we do it once, even if you do stop dieting, like it does become a habit if it gets rewarded. Binging releases pleasurable brain chemicals. This gets wired into your brain So like it doesn't matter your gender. This is all like a deep part of who we all are. The formation of habits and getting quote unquote addicted to things. This is like a universal problem.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's good that you're speaking out and sharing your journey, because I think it will help a lot of other men as well.
Speaker 1:What do you think the common misconceptions are with like binge eating?
Speaker 2:I think the word binge has become a common term in society. Like we binge watch TV shows, we know it's become this word that I think it almost like dismisses the struggle that binge eaters have, because someone might eat like five cookies and say, oh, i binged and like meanwhile we're over here eating a whole pack of you know like massive amounts of food and cookies and more food after that.
Speaker 2:So I think when people say, oh, i binge, when they ate just like a normal dessert, it sort of takes away a little from the struggle. So I think that's a misconception. That like a binge is a clinical thing. That's massive amounts of food and that makes people feel awful and causes terrible consequences in their lives. It's not just like a little overeating. So I think that's a big one. I think another one is probably could take up the rest of the show.
Speaker 2:So I'll try to be brief is that it's a way to cope like? it is a way to cope with life And it's kind of the path I was led down in therapy. And I'm not saying like there is some indirect connections to problems and stressors and all that And we can definitely talk about that, but I think it's just really built up like even if you go to WebMD or some of these big like websites that explain health problems, it's like, oh, binge eating is a way to cope with problems And I just really think that can justify it and create reasons for doing it. When it is like a primal instinct, it's a habit, and when we give ourselves all these reasons like, oh, i need this because I've had a hard day or because my life is so hard, then it just kind of gives us more reasons to give in. So I think the coping mechanism theory is it's a complicated one, but I think it is a problematic misconception.
Speaker 1:Right, that was a big part of your story of going to different counselors and therapists and things like that, and they were looking for a root cause. But, like you're saying, even in my own life people would say like, oh, you're just stress eating or something like that, and stress could be an excuse to give in. But I binge on happy days too. You know, sometimes that's an excuse, sometimes like hey, i'm celebrating, and then it just leads into something crazy too. So that is a big one that we're looking for reasons other than to just label this as an urge. And you know, if somebody cuts me off in traffic and I get angry, like I could have the urge to retaliate in some crazy way, but I'm going to fight that urge, i'm not going to do anything like that. And this is just another one of those intrusive sort of urges that over time, we need to learn to turn off or ignore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:In a recent interview you had mentioned, it's 18 years now, right That? you've been recovered from binge eating. Has your perspective changed over time, from when you first kind of started the recovery process to where you are now?
Speaker 2:If you go back to like when I first started being introduced to therapy and I was taught all this about, it's a way to cope and you're stuffing down your feelings and you're trying to meet an emotional need and all these things like, yes, that perspective has completely changed And because that perspective changed, that's how I recovered, like I was able to reframe everything and see that, okay, yeah, I had problems, there was issues in my upbringing, like, but that's not the cause. I mean, the cause was dieting. The cause was the fact that I starved my body. It created massive, you know, urges to eat massive amounts of food and that created a habit that perpetuated, you know, for many years.
Speaker 2:So once I was able to see it in that way, it took all like the mystery out of recovery. It's before I thought, oh, i had to learn to cope with depression, i had to learn to cure anxiety, i had to resolve everything from my past and that just like it was fine. All that stuff is great, like to improve your life, but it never really helped with the binging. So I was able to target the binging. I was able to see, like the way the brain was creating the urges But, like you said, realize, okay, this is just an urge, this is not me, This is not what I actually want.
Speaker 2:So, like that perspective massively changed As far as like what changed since I recover, like since I was able to use that brain based information, since I was able to rewire my brain. I think the biggest perspective since I wrote brain over binge which I wrote a second edition last year which I think reflects this a little better is that you know I've come around to realize that my approach is not incompatible with therapy, it's not incompatible with other approaches. I feel like I was a little too like harsh on therapy in my first book because I felt like, oh gosh, this wasted so many years of my life I was, you know, led to believe that I needed to solve everything before I recovered. But, like people can work on other issues and work on stopping the urges, and sometimes the two can compliment each other, in that you need like a higher part of yourself, a higher part of your brain to override these urges, and the more you can sort of build up that higher self, like by finding purpose or by, you know, solving some problems, it just can help you.
Speaker 2:It really can't hurt you at all As long as you realize, like I don't need to be perfect to stop binging, like so, building up yourself, helping yourself in therapy and stuff like that. I think, provided you have the right perspective, it can only kind of benefit you in certain ways. Now you know, of course, if it's giving you excuses and making you think you have to solve every issue you've ever had to stop binging, then that's not helpful. But I think that's probably the biggest perspective is I think that everyone is different. Bring in whatever you feel like would help you, even if that's therapy, even if that's, you know, whatever you feel like you need. So I hope that's making sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. I think the most of what I got from just the book, because I think I went through the newest edition or one of the newer editions. I cheated, i went through the audio books of all these.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was I reading the audio book. Yes, was it me. Yeah, okay, then that's the newer one.
Speaker 1:Okay, great Yeah, so I went through that one, but it felt like to me. It's like you think through therapy and all these internal issues that you have to slay, like these nine dragons, instead of just the one that is. I just need to learn to ignore the urges or label the urges as some primitive thing. Have you ever heard of the Brian Johnson guy, the blueprint guy?
Speaker 2:I feel like it sounds familiar, but I don't think so.
Speaker 1:He created some platform or something called Braintree, sold it to Venmo, made millions and millions of dollars, and now what he does is he spends all his time and money on reversing his age.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:I've not heard of that. Well, i kind of watch his stuff because it's just so intriguing. But one of the things that he said recently and I think this kind of ties to what we're talking about is he was talking about how we as humans try to do our best to avoid violence. And he's just saying, in what he's doing, he's trying to label these habits, like binge eating, for example, as violence against yourself, and it's like we would never want to harm a loved one or even some people that have irritated us. we would still not want to harm them. yet We are harming ourselves.
Speaker 1:So if we can label in a way like it's different from just going like, oh, this is the lower brain talking or a primitive brain But in a way he's saying like if we can label certain things as violence against ourselves going crazy on pizza or whatever then we wouldn't do it either. If we could have established those, and I thought that was interesting as well, because I was like, yeah, somebody cut me off in traffic. example again, i would never like responding violence to someone else, but why would I respond in any circumstance towards violence to myself? you know, just an intrusive thought. why would I let that then help me do something violent against myself. So I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 2:I think it is too, And it kind of brings up for me the fact that when therapy is kind of not helpful, it does the opposite, in that it teaches people that you're binging to soothe yourself. You're binging because it's helping you in some way. You're binging because you're not getting your needs met otherwise and then you need this. So like it almost gives you this idea that it's the opposite of violence, that it's like something helpful until you can, you know, find other ways to soothe yourself, until you can put like reframing it as no, this is violence. You have to say no to these urges And once you do, yeah, you can find many other ways to soothe yourself. But just having the idea that it's helpful in some way, I think, is actually a really harmful idea.
Speaker 1:For sure. I know for me, and even in your kind of story too, it's like the more you struggle with something, the more you internalized it and backed up away from people. You started adding distance in relationships and things like that. What type of advice do you have for people out there who are maybe feeling isolated or alone in their journey? How can they bring people alongside them that love them, that can help encourage them to get past this hurdle?
Speaker 2:That's a hard question. It's a good question, i think, because it is so isolating, like you're so ashamed. you know there may be weight changes that you feel like you don't even look like yourself, you just want to hide. Of course, when you're eating you want to hide. So it definitely is isolating and that just kind of perpetuates everything And ultimately you are the only one who can say no to those urges when they come up, no matter what support you have in your life, no matter who else is around. like it ultimately does come down to you. So like I think having that self empowerment of like when your brain produces an urge, like you're the only one who can decide to act or not act on it, but like having the support, is helpful to people And for some people more than others. I tend to be, like very introverted And even though the isolation was tough during the binge eating, i feel like my recovery. ultimately I did do it on my own in the end. So knowing that you can do it on your own and that's an option, great.
Speaker 2:But other people do need support And I do think it's helpful to talk to people you can trust, to have sort of plans in place where you can reach out. That's all very helpful. We at Brain Over Binge I have learned over the years that this is something that people need. So I now have a coach working for me, coach Shuli, who does a brain over binge group. she's on the forum every day. she has group calls. So, like that's definitely something you can look into as well. There's groups, there's support, you know. so I would just say it's an individual thing for every person And, like, if you feel like you're comfortable on your own and you want to do this on your own, that absolutely is doable. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting support And it's something that a lot of people need.
Speaker 1:Let's flip it Then. what is a loved one to do if they know that someone they love is struggling with? this or they're walking through recovery of binge eating. What's a way that loved ones can support someone walking through that?
Speaker 2:It can sometimes be a bit of a fine line because you know, if the loved one kind of oversteps and tries to control and tries to tell them what to eat and it's critical of what they eat and things like that, that can almost have a counter effect.
Speaker 1:Right So.
Speaker 2:I do think the loved one. it's best if the loved one offers their support without being controlling about it. You let me know what you need. in certain moments I'm available to you. Please reach out And it's just sort of be that presence of support without telling them how they should eat or trying to control the situation in any way.
Speaker 1:Did you ever get a few weeks in and slip and kind of stumble And then what, what are some positive things? you would have to tell yourself to keep from spiraling out of control.
Speaker 2:Well, when I first started applying sort of this brain-based ideas and I got it and what you know from the book, from a basis of it was from Jack Trimpe's Rational Recovery and it was kind of an alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous. It was for alcohol, drug addiction, but I applied it to the eating disorder and he was really big on like this is in your brain, it's a habit, it's not a disease, it's not a coping mechanism and you can, you know, stop. So once I actually applied those ideas, kind of in my own way, based on my own struggle, i only had two other times where I slipped and binged. So like this is when I'm using these brain-based ideas.
Speaker 2:The first time it happened, i, like in the past, i would have been like trying to figure out what stress caused it. I would have been trying to figure out like what I could have done differently in my day, what I could have eaten differently to prevent it, things like that. But but when this actually happened, after learning about the brain, i was like, oh, i just followed an urge, that's all a binge is is following an urge. I got caught up in it. I believed temporarily that it was what I wanted or needed and I acted on it. So, like I didn't make it complicated, i was like, okay, i followed the urge time to move on. What thought kind of led me to step back into that primal brain and think that's what I wanted?
Speaker 2:Like I kind of analyzed, like, what thoughts led me there and realized, okay, next time I have those thoughts, i'll just dismiss them. So I just didn't make a big deal of it, i think. And I think that's really, really helpful for people to just say okay, i acted on the urge, what can I do differently next time? The last time I binged it was almost like and you read about this in the book, i'm sure too it was like almost a choice. I heard those thoughts. I knew they weren't me, i knew they were just the habit, their old programming, and I was like, okay, but I'm going to act on it anyway.
Speaker 2:And I binged and it was just not the same. I was just once I like had that choice. it just kind of became impossible to binge and I never binged again. So those were the two slips I had, using this brain-based perspective. Prior to that, i had so many slips and it was all just like an endless cycle of trying to figure out what triggered it and trying to control the circumstances in my life, trying to control my feelings, trying to like do all these things when really I just the problem was the urge. And once I realized the problem was the urge that allowed me to target it and allowed me to overcome slips a lot better than I had in the past, when everything just was too complicated.
Speaker 1:After I got through your book, I mean, once I started reading, I started applying, but it was like I kind of got through it And I would have like these little micro-binges or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably just mini binges, Mini binges Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was like once I kind of unlocked that part of my brain. Like you said, i couldn't really just go crazy. Like there was something that was different and it kind of shocked me because it was similar to how you said. Kind of. The last one was where it's like I'm sure it's not impossible for me to binge the same way I used to, but now if I got really hungry then I could eat like maybe one piece of chocolate or maybe have a couple of chips while I'm cooking my food And it's like one of these, like I couldn't say no to the piece of chocolate but I didn't eat like a whole bag of chocolate or like I'm going to eat every single Mr Goodbar in this bag or I'm going to. You know, i feel like now, just from knowing even though I don't feel like I'm applying a ton of pressure on that point I feel like I don't binge like I used to, just because it's just part of knowing now what it is.
Speaker 1:The ability to label it, what it is, really unlocked something and I saw like immediate progress which was different from some of the other books that I went through, where there was an extreme amount of setting up all these things in your life and making a list of these are okay, these are not okay, like all these like rigid moral labels to certain foods like this is good food, this is bad food, this is binge inducing food, this isn't. I feel like there was less of that with your book. I immediately just picked it up and was like, okay, well, this makes sense, like it's just kind of happening on its own in a weird way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think that's amazing and I like your example with the chocolate because, like you mentioned, in some of the books about eating disorders and binge eating, it's like, okay, you have to stay away from trigger foods, you have to stay away from sugar or flour or things like that that could, you know, potentially be addicting. And, yes, like certain foods are more stimulating to the pleasure centers in our brain than others, like that's a fact, but that doesn't mean we're powerless against them. So, like you've seen for yourself that you can just eat one piece of chocolate and there might be thoughts and feelings of wanting more, but it's possible to feel that, to experience it and to stop. You know, and people do have different reactions to sugar and different types of foods, and that's kind of where, you know, a lot of my thinking has evolved too. Is that, yes, like some people may need to give up certain foods for a certain time If they feel like they can't disconnect from that urge, if they feel like it's too powerful, then I don't think it's a bad thing, but I think that, overall, like we should have a mindset of power over foods, like it's not the foods that are controlling us, like we decide ultimately what we put in our mouths, despite whatever we're feeling, thinking, experiencing like physical cravings, things like that.
Speaker 2:But then don't take that to mean you'll ever eat perfectly Right. I mean I follow tons of cravings, like it's definitely not binge, like not even close, but like if I want a dessert, i have a dessert. I mean not all the time. Sometimes I'm like, nah, i don't really want it right now, but like I eat junk food, i follow cravings, things like that. So I think when we start thinking, okay, i don't want to follow these primitive urges specifically I'm talking about binging and like really problematic forms of over-reading. I'm not saying, don't follow any urges to eat a piece of chocolate while you're cooking, like that's totally fine if you want to do that, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think that this weird sort of labeling of good and bad foods and I mean we know they're healthier foods and these don't for the caloric density these things don't give us as much as these things do for the volume or however, but it's kind of part of living too. They exist. I believe you have children. I have children. on special days I want to be at a place where I'm healthy enough to go have ice cream with them if that's what we're going to do, and I feel like these rigid like nose. it's more of my ability to have a cake in the house and only have one piece at the party and then not eat the rest of it at night. That's more the ability I want than the rigid like I can't have cake because I don't know if I have one piece I'll have a million pieces or I'll eat the whole thing. I think being afraid of those kind of robs you of other joys in life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i absolutely agree and everyone has to find that balance that works for them. But, yeah, just having the freedom to eat And I think that when we put foods off limits it makes them more appealing Like once you do have that allowing mindset of like I know I can have this whenever I want, you know, in moderation, in a way that works for me, it just takes the appeal away so that you don't feel like, oh my gosh, i have to eat all this now because I never get to have it again, because you know you're you can have it again. So it's taking that you know, sort of forbidden fruit away from these foods makes you eat less of them overall.
Speaker 1:Makes you do one scoop instead of like three or like. Oh I know, if I do this today I can't do it ever again, So I'm going to eat as much as I possibly can. You know, that was like the lie I would tell myself quite a bit as well. If I'm going to give in today, then I better get everything I want. I better be able to stop at this one place that I love the fried chicken at. I better, you know, on the way home, get this thing too, because tomorrow, none of it, I can't have any of it. But the thought that if it fits within my nutritional strategy, I can have this thing if I want it on this day or whatever that day. Do you feel like eating the right amount of food, or eating enough food? Do you feel like that is a huge? I know it was in my life, but is it a huge speed bump for people to kind of fall into binge eating, restricting not just the type but the amount as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I do think restricting the amount is like the biggest thing, Like, yeah, the type can cause problems too. But when I started dieting, there was this mindset of like if I'm eating anywhere close to 2000 calories, like that's way too much. So I was trying to get like way under that, way under that, like the furthest under that I could go, the better. And now it's like I think if you're eating under 2000 calories, that's not enough, Like especially for for men and for people with larger body frames and people are active. I mean, I don't think I ever eat less than 2000 calories a day And I think that the composition of what I eat changed, Like I feel like over time. I've realized my body needs more healthy fat, more proteins and they can be more calorie dense and things like that. It's a mental hurdle A lot of people have to overcome to start eating enough. I call it in my book, I call it eating adequately.
Speaker 2:You have to eat adequately, not perfectly, not optimally, not healthy all the time, but you have to eat enough decent food, like in terms of quality, in terms of quantity, and I think quantity is actually even more important than quality, especially early on in recovery.
Speaker 1:Do you think that if you're really struggling with binge eating, do you think that intermittent fasting is something you should wait on If you're, if you're struggling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, that's definitely, i feel, like a loaded question, but like, yes, i do think it's something you should wait on, if not avoid forever. Yeah, i don't know, i, and maybe just some people, aren't set up for it. Like I was always someone like as a young kid I was very active and I always ate a lot, ate a lot often, like just felt like I needed it. I was never overweight or anything And I still feel like I've tried like dude, i thought I was healthy. I was like, okay, i'm not going to eat breakfast till like 9 am, like just to give my body a little more time to like rest and digest and things like that. And like I feel like it drove me crazy.
Speaker 2:Like even this was like probably 14 years after recovery And I don't think it was anything dangerous, like I don't think I was in any danger of going back down a dangerous path, but I felt like it just wasn't like why am I doing this? I'm hungry at 7 am? Yeah, i don't know. So I feel like you stretch that the way I felt in those two hours a stretch that over. People are doing this for many hours And, like you said, like 40 hours or something I can only imagine, like the havoc this is causing. For what benefit? like the stress and the cortisol that you're creating with all this stress, like I feel like that offsets a lot of the quote unquote health benefits that people promote.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I just think with binging it's like you already know you're a person susceptible to kind of fasting and feasting and having this terrible cycle. So you know that about yourself. So like, why put yourself in that situation? Like maybe for some people who are not susceptible, who have certain health conditions who can do this? people have different physiology So maybe for some people it can be helpful in some situations. but I think anyone susceptible to binging and harmful dieting, i just think it's something to avoid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a selfish question, just because I found myself really struggling with it. You know, that was the thing that you know. You hear all these things. Some of there's benefits to fasting, but it's so funny that that's kind of the same part of our brain that we're like yeah, you know our ancestors, they, you know, some days they'd be out hunting a meal and they wouldn't eat one day and then they would overeat the next day. And you know, and I felt like for me, the longer I kept trying to push back eating, the more I just thought about eating all day long And I made some really bad decisions on what I ate for lunch. Compared to if I just ate whatever a bowl of oatmeal or something at breakfast, that's 200 calories. I'm not obsessed with over food and I'll have a lighter lunch and no big deal. I can focus on working and not like saying no to hunger pains all day.
Speaker 2:So and I mean our ancestors didn't have the option Like.
Speaker 1:I think if they would have had the option to eat they would have eaten. For sure Yeah.
Speaker 2:We have so much temptations, i just don't know if our world is set up for people to do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have you faced, because I feel like they're even in your book you kind of talk about there's two mindsets And even in just a few books that I've read it can go all over the place. There's like correlating applications, but they're all over the map. Do you face any sort of resistance to this super logical way of treating binge eating?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think less than I thought I might have. Like, i feel like I definitely have more positive feedback from people saying, wow, this really empowered me, this really helped me. You know, see everything differently.
Speaker 2:I would think the biggest one I get, which I totally understand, is that, like, okay, some people don't have control, like some people actually can't use the power of their higher brain And I try to set that up in my book saying, like, okay, this is not for people with other mental disorders that affect that self-control function. Like this is not for people with, like, severe trauma or severe depression or things that, like you're not actually accessing your higher brain. So, yeah, i think that that's a fair criticism And I try to address that, you know. So, if you're someone who, like you're trying this and you feel like you absolutely cannot stop your actions, then maybe there's something else going on. I mean, even people with, like, severe ADHD have trouble accessing the self-control function. So you know it's definitely something. If you want to use the brain over binge approach, there may be some other things that you need in addition to that. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. There's another book to I've read. I think maybe it's called The Power of Habit. It's like a yellow book And it talks about a specific individual who had short-term memory loss and he ended up gaining a ton of weight because of the habitual side of just eating meals at the same time. So he would forget that he just ate breakfast and then, out of habit, 45 minutes later he would go eat breakfast again. That's an extreme case, but in a weird way it does apply kind of to what you're saying, which is like we've just developed over time this habit of binge eating that we do even if we feel full after a meal or something like that. We just push over because it is a trigger or a cue, then a response and a reward, and just over and over again. The more we train neural pathways in our brain, we just create these ridges that it's easy to get into, this groove that you can go down. I thought that was interesting too, that I had read that book quite a while ago and then it was brought to mind whenever I was reading yours that there are just so many things that go into if we can just be mindful of what's the cue that causes us to do this thing.
Speaker 1:You've done a good job in your book of saying here's how you label this thing as an urge. Probably the most profound thing out of your book for me was just going the only thing that you're fixing is you're just getting rid of the urge. You're not doing anything past that. I'm butchering how you worded it, but that's basically like the one thing that I immediately took. Like as soon as I heard that sort of message, i was like, wow, yeah, that's really it. It's just this urge, and then I'm just satisfying that urge, but there's nothing else going on. I don't need this. It's not offering me any sort of benefits other than it's just prolonging. The next time I have this urge It's just turning it off for now and then it'll turn it back on again later, and that, i think immediately. Whenever I heard that, i was like okay, this just changed everything for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. I mean, I had a similar experience in that I thought recovery meant I was going to become this like happy person and, you know, be able to cope with everything. Great, And like. I'm not. 18 years later, I'm still not. So, like when you recover, not only is the urge the cause of each and every binge. When you recover you're just getting rid of the urge. You're just getting rid of this painful behavior that comes from following the urge And it doesn't mean your life will be perfect. And I think some people think, like they maybe don't binge for a day and they still have all these problems and they're still feel sad and they still feel lonely And like, yeah, that's life, It's life And the or the binging was not helping at all. So, like realizing that life won't be perfect after recovery, it prevents you from like thinking that a binge would somehow help you in any situation.
Speaker 1:That was probably my huge takeaway. Or the light switch, that kind of flipped, what is like one thing that listeners can like immediately apply if they listen to this and they're struggling. That's the first step.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean as far as where to start, like, i think a lot of times people are looking for, like, specific strategies, like do this, do this, and you know, sure, there's strategies that help people, but I really break it down to two things You have to dismiss the urges to binge and you have to eat adequately, eat enough food. So, like, whatever you can do to bring yourself toward one or both of those goals is extremely helpful place to start. How can you start learning to dismiss the urges to binge? Well, like well, a lot of what we talked about here in this show. You can learn to see them differently, learn to see them as a primal part of your brain, learn to see them as not you. Okay, what can you do to eat adequately? Can you try to not fast? Can you add more to your meals, things like that? So, like, getting yourself to one or both of those goals goals is great.
Speaker 2:I do have a free ebook. If anyone would like to start with dismissing urges, i have a. If you go to brainoverbinchcom, you can download a free ebook that is all about dismissing the urges.
Speaker 1:So that's like one place I can specifically give you to start if you're interested in my approach, so I hope that's okay to mention that as well, absolutely, yeah, in fact, as we wrap up, i want to thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me and chat about these things. What are some of the resources you offer? I know you have a podcast, you have the book and the recovery guide. Just rattle off some of the most beneficial resources that can be paid or whatever the case may be, but what are some people who are? if you believe that you're really struggling with this, you really want to get over this, catherine, give them some of your resources that you have out there available.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to do that And I do have everything at brainoverbinchcom. Like I mentioned, the free ebook can be a place to start. I have the two books, like you said brain over binge and the brain over binge recovery guide. Brain over binge is my personal story and the brain over binge recovery guide is more of the self help conversion of the book. I have coaching. I don't personally do the coaching. I have coach Julie, who's awesome and she recovered after 40 years and in a different way a little bit than me, so she provides like a different perspective. So she does one on one coaching group coaching. I'm also doing a webinar coming up. I'm not sure when you're releasing this, but you go to brainoverbinchcom For a slash webinar to find out any opportunities, sort of to connect with me directly. I think that's about it. Oh, i have online course. That's the last thing. I have a very inexpensive online course that self-paced like. If you're not someone who needs that personal support with coaching, you can do a self-paced online course And that's also at brainoverbinchcom.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much, and thank you for taking the time to answer these questions and hang out with me for a sec.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much, Mike. I appreciate you having me and sharing your own story. I think it's you know it's vulnerable and it's going to be helpful to a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to this episode of the Stronger Self. I want to give you a little bit of time to explore Catherine's work with brain over binge over on her website or her book or the recovery guide. Take some time, look into that And on the next episode I'll break down the concepts that I've used that have really worked for me and how I apply them and how you may be able to apply them to quit binge eating for good. I appreciate you joining me and I hope to see you on the next episode of the Stronger Self podcast.