Caregiving, Politics, and Prosperity with New York Assemblyman Ron Kim

In this episode, Cherri Jacobs Pruitt interviews New York Assemblyman Ron Kim on how he uses Riane Eisler’s partnership-domination cultural lens and caring economics as transformational tools for tackling some of societies most challenging issues. Assemblyman Kim provides a compelling case for our nation to re-imagine our caring infrastructure and to rethink care work as a critical and core function of our government. This deep-dive conversation with Ron will help you envision a politics of partnership where trust and compassion are foundational and essential components.

Ron Kim - Assemblyman

Resilience, Rising Appalachia

Support the Show.

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Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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I’m Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnerships Systems.

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This podcast brings you
the voices from the partnership movement,

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people using partnership

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practices
to build a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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The Power of Partnership podcast

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is hosted by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a Health Policy and Partnerships scholar.

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Today, Cherri interviews Ron Kim,

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six term New York Assemblyman,

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on his vision for a partnership
based political agenda

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to build a world that values caring,
nature and shared prosperity.

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And now on to the POP podcast.

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Welcome,
Ron, and thank you so much for joining us

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for the Power of Partnership podcast.

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So you have been serving
as a New York assemblyman

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since 2012 in the same district
where you grew up

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at the time you were elected, you
by the people in your community.

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You were the first Korean-American
assemblyman in the New York state

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legislature.

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Can you share a bit about your life
as an assemblyman

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and what it looks like in
any given week in terms of

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what are the issues that you are dealing
with?

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Yeah, thank you so much
for having me on this podcast.

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I've been in the state service
for the last 11 years,

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like you said, going on my sixth term.
When I first was elected,

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I was not only the first Korean-American,
I was the only person

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of Asian-American descent
to serve in the legislature. But

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in the course of last

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11 years,
we have a number of other Asian-American

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elected officials, more women
than ever, to serve in Albany and beyond.

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So I'm very happy about that.

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But my everyday fluctuates,
you know, almost every single day.

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There seems to be a crisis
these days, every single moment.

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Unfortunately, coming out of COVID,
we have a crisis around homelessness

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in urban places like New York City
and other urban cities around the country.

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We have mental health crises.

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We have crime
that's on that's on the rise.

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And people are feeling unsafe

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both physically
and economically all around us.

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And so can you share how you first learned

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about Riane Eisler's
partnership-domination social lens,

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and how that helps you address
some of these challenges and issues?

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I met her at a conference, before Covid

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about four years ago at a conference
called Bretton Woods Conference.

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This was the 75th year
where we were celebrating

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because some of the new economic
philosophies that we should be looking at

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after 75 years ago, when we

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made the U.S.

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dollar the main currency
and the reserve currency of the world.

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A lot of things have changed

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and a lot of people have been left behind
in some of the economies.

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And more people should be focused on
how do we really create

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a caring infrastructure
that could focus on

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caring in our communities
and people around us.

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But we haven't got enough of the framework
and groundwork to get that done.

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And she spoke beautifully
at this conference

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and I automatically became a fan.

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And started reading some of her books.

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And I reached out to her
about some of the proposals

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that we're working on
that was aligned with her vision.

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And we've been in touch
with the partnership

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for several years now,
and I look forward to continuing to learn

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and understand what it will take to

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solve some of society's biggest problems.

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Mm hmm.

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Can you think of an example to share
with our listeners

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who may be new to Riane's

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partnership-domination continuum
and her caring economics philosophies

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in terms of what
some of that shift would look like

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in your community in dealing with
some of these issues that you're facing.

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Yeah. You know, as a

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whistle blower in Covid that called out
some of the failing policies

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around long term care in New York State,
including

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the governor of New York for lying to us

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and hiding valuable information

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to the public and lawmakers.

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Where we needed that data
to make sound judgment to protect

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older adults in long term care facilities.

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If it wasn't for Riane's

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analysis of how she saw the world
in terms of people who do things

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from a dominating lens
instead of a true partnership lens,

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I would have had a hard time
navigating some of those difficult times

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when I felt
the whole world was against me.

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And there were
I mean, a lot of people in my own

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party wanted to reduce me
and get rid of me because nobody wants

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someone who's not willing to just take it
and just stay quiet

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because there's so much money, power
that was already in line to

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prop up

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the bad policies that
some of these politicians were backing.

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But at that time when I had clarity

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on some of the toxic predatory behavior
that we see we have seen so much of

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in politics when it's dominated by

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some of the outdated mindset of mostly

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men who see, you know,

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public service as a game of domination,
a win lose situation where

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I have to climb to the top by invalidating

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or destroying other people's careers.

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And that is not the model
that I believe in And that's one example

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of how we changed the course of politics
in places like New York.

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And that's how we overcame
and change the narrative.

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Built the wider coalition
that led to a larger movement around

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health care and long term care.

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And it was really

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because we were able to center the truth
and solutions

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around the people on the ground
that were impacted the most.

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The end recipients of care
that were left behind and their families.

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And all of a sudden we had coalitions

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from all sections of the politics,
both left, right, middle,

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because we all care about our parents,
we all care about our families.

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We want to make sure that our grandparents
and everyone else in between

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have the ability to retire with dignity.

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And if they're sent to a facility
that those facilities

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do their job
in making sure that they keep them safe

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in those places.

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Can you talk about the economic
considerations

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in the work you're doing,
because, you know, Riane’s caring economics

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is really about valuing each other
the planet on which we live.

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And some of that work is really looking
at longer returns, you know,

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as opposed to the immediate impact of,

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for instance, running a nursing home.

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You know, how can you increase
the revenues as quickly as possible

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versus how can you improve quality of life

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for that individual
and their entire family,

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which sometimes is a little harder
economically to quantify?

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Yeah.

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It's not just the patient

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that's suffering in a long term
care facility or someone

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who is not getting the proper home
care service that they deserve.

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But it's the entire family structure
around that individual

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that impacts the local
and state economy.

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So when a child

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or a next generation

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of caretakers have to sacrifice

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their careers, their small businesses, to
now take care of older adults

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because the government or the state
is not filling those gaps for them,

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that has a direct impact on our economy
and our state

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in all things that could be fixed
if we just raise the wages

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for the workers
that take care of older adults and other

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disabled
Americans in this country.

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But we don't do it
because we fundamentally don't believe

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in paying for care

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at the same rate,
as Riane often refers to it,

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as we pay for an electrician or a plumber
or even a police officer or fireman.

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We've normalized the devaluing,

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un-valuing of care work so much

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that it's taking us years to even increase

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a few dollars for care workers.

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And that's where I think, you know,
we still need a lot of work.

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But on top of that,

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we also kind of normalize

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this outsourcing of care

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to third parties, meaning
no one wants to be blamed.

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So we contract out everything.

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You know, there's in the last 11 years,

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the state of New York alone
have sold dozens of

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county and state run facilities
and privatized them

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because no one wants to take
responsibility of care. And

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I love
the nonprofits that take these roles,

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but it's not
they can't fix the care economy alone.

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We need a government,
an administrative capacity

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to care for people
as if it's a public duty.

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And the more we outsource,
the more we contract things out.

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We’re
just setting ourselves up for failure.

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And so we can blame each other.

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And that is not building partnership
because that's just scapegoating people

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when things fail and this country

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used to be amazing

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100 years ago
when the Woodrow Wilsons and FDRs

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saw a need,
when the private markets were failing

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to build bridges and build tunnels,
and we created some of the most

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amazing public agencies
the world has ever seen.

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In New York alone, we have what
we call the Port Authority of New York,

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New Jersey, the first bi-state government

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that manages all the airports
and the bridges.

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We have the MTA,
we have the power authority.

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FDR when he was the president oversaw
the free corporation,

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the Commerce Department, all these things
we used to be good at doing and building.

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But if we apply the same level of passion
and dedication

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for the care infrastructure as we built

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bridges and tunnels 100 years ago,
we would get this right in a minute.

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And that's the level of leadership
and partnership combined that we need

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in this country to really finance care
and build an infrastructure

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to not just punt it
to third parties, to set them up, to fail.

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So how do you think we get there?

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We have to get government to get back
into the business of caring for people.

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And that's the way
that I've been framing it,

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because oftentimes when government
gets involved, there's this

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scary word, you know, called socialism.

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Oh, it's a public takeover.

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You don't want any more
public involvement.

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It's not socialism.

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It's not public takeover.

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It's public it's private public balance.

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Right now there's no balance.

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Everything has been privatized

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where the government,
all we're doing is punting our duty.

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And it's one giant procurement office

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where we're just outsourcing our duty
to care for each other

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to third parties.

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So I think we need to elect the right people in executive positions to take on the

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hard task,

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just like FDR and Wilson and others
have done in the past and treat this

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like real infrastructure,
because I know that Riane and many others

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on her board talked about that,
the caring infrastructure.

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But what does that mean?

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It can't be just about waiting around
for the federal government

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to give us grants, we have to put
a ground financing mechanism

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to publicly pay for care
from the ground up

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and not just wait for the White House
to get their act together.

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And what would you like to say to

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not only the residents of the community

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you serve, but to all of the residents

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across our nation in terms
and the world, really,

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in terms of our political system,
what would you want to say to them

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about the partnership-domination
social lens continuum

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and caring economics
to help them play a role

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in getting those elected officials
into seats to make a difference?

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It is more critical now than ever

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in light of the toxic politics

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that we see
every time we turn on social media.

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All we're seeing is people
trying to dominate each other

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and subjugate others and part of that,

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I understand where it's coming from
and how we got here.

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But many people have different thesis.

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But we are a nation with deep traumas

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and deep histories that quite frankly,

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may not have been honest about
and we might not have taught properly

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growing up and confronted from young ages
what our shortfalls and shortcomings

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have been as a nation,
and to deal with that kind of trauma,

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we are overcompensating
with dominating personalities

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and instead of moderating,
instead of rationalizing and building,

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compromising partnerships and beyond,

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that's a harder path to take to really.

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And it takes a lot of work.

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It takes a lot of trust conversations.

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And less social media knee jerk reactions

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to people
to build a human to human trust again

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and that's what we need to heal.

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And we haven't had that level
of healing as a nation

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for a long time, if not ever. You know?

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And I just think that's what Riane’s work
and what you're doing on this podcast

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and all the dedicated people around,
around you and Riane is so important

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because without understanding
how we got here

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and intellectualizing
what partnership truly means,

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we will never be able to overcome

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the deep traumas of our past.

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And we'll continue to go back
to our bad habits of fighting, dominating,

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and seeing every interaction with humans
as a validation or invalidation of me.

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And that's not
how anyone should be living.

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So, Ron, do you have are you seeing areas

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where there is bipartisan agreement
that you're able to build upon?

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And there you know, are you seeing spots
where there's a willingness

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to find partnership based solutions
that are really outside the box?

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You know, Riane often quotes Einstein,
as so many others do, as saying

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insanity is doing the same thing over
and over and expecting different results.

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Yeah, I've been

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very successful working with my colleagues
on the other side of the aisle

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around care, around long term care.

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And if you take away all the ideologies
and all the pandering and politics

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and focus on the constituents
in our backyards and everyone

00;17;17;48 - 00;17;21;51
understands that we have a crisis around
long term care,

00;17;21;56 - 00;17;25;37
we have a aging, older adult crisis

00;17;25;37 - 00;17;29;55
in this country and globally,
and we don't have an answer for.

00;17;30;00 - 00;17;33;30
So that's something that we're
continuously trying to put together

00;17;33;35 - 00;17;36;24
coalitions and surprisingly,

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;39;40
there are truth seekers
on both sides of the aisle.

00;17;39;45 - 00;17;43;35
They don't care about what
their politics or machine

00;17;43;39 - 00;17;46;30
clubs are telling them to say,

00;17;46;30 - 00;17;50;08
but they genuinely care
about the people that they serve.

00;17;50;12 - 00;17;53;37
I think it's the right language
that we use where we don't

00;17;53;43 - 00;17;57;59
and then it's a lot of it's
a partnerism language

00;17;58;04 - 00;18;01;56
to create a safe space
where I don't invalidate

00;18;02;01 - 00;18;07;07
anyone and accepting and listening
first to where they're coming from

00;18;07;12 - 00;18;11;19
And when you do that,
I think there's a lot of truth seekers

00;18;11;19 - 00;18;15;53
in politics
that are eager to show their constituents

00;18;15;58 - 00;18;18;42
that there's
something systemically broken,

00;18;18;42 - 00;18;22;56
and I'm willing to step out of the
line and build partnerships

00;18;23;01 - 00;18;23;38
in all

00;18;23;38 - 00;18;26;38
circles to get to the truth
for this country.

00;18;26;41 - 00;18;27;58
And sometimes people surprise you.

00;18;27;58 - 00;18;30;58
Sometimes people

00;18;30;59 - 00;18;33;16
you make assumptions about certain groups.

00;18;33;16 - 00;18;36;42
But that's why you have to take the time
to show up and listen.

00;18;36;46 - 00;18;40;32
Because at the end of the day,
whether you're, you know,

00;18;40;37 - 00;18;45;15
big businessman
or a fighting for workers on the ground,

00;18;45;19 - 00;18;48;36
like I think we care about the same

00;18;48;40 - 00;18;51;26
human level,

00;18;51;26 - 00;18;53;51
you know, interactions
and we care about each other

00;18;53;51 - 00;18;57;10
the same way, that we

00;18;57;15 - 00;18;58;49
forget sometimes.

00;18;58;49 - 00;19;02;45
But I think the biggest challenge
is administering

00;19;02;45 - 00;19;07;21
and executing on partnerships,
because when you're on the ground

00;19;07;21 - 00;19;12;45
there's a conflict,
when you're feeling emotional

00;19;12;50 - 00;19;17;09
about a certain event and or other people

00;19;17;09 - 00;19;21;51
that may not be aligned with you,
some of your worst instincts

00;19;21;51 - 00;19;23;17
take over, right?

00;19;23;17 - 00;19;28;25
And you become naturally combative
when it becomes fight or flight

00;19;28;25 - 00;19;32;57
kind of a moment and the worst outcomes
come out of those moments.

00;19;33;02 - 00;19;37;03
I think it's important
in those moments that we

00;19;37;08 - 00;19;39;50
stop reacting to the moment

00;19;39;50 - 00;19;43;33
because we have become a nation,
politically also, a

00;19;43;38 - 00;19;48;12
nation with so much knee jerk
reactions to conflicts.

00;19;48;17 - 00;19;52;02
We need to respond better as a community.

00;19;52;02 - 00;19;56;50
And sometimes you need to take a step back
and figure out

00;19;56;55 - 00;20;01;54
what is the right path out of this
that's going to resolve this problem.

00;20;01;59 - 00;20;04;59
And I think that's the one piece

00;20;04;59 - 00;20;09;17
that as a practitioner
that we need to figure out

00;20;09;17 - 00;20;14;42
how to execute the partnerships
at the very local level, better

00;20;14;47 - 00;20;18;56
because these days,
especially in urban environments.

00;20;19;01 - 00;20;22;33
Cherri, I tell you, it's
people are very triggered.

00;20;22;38 - 00;20;26;59
You bump into the person
the wrong way at a subway.

00;20;27;04 - 00;20;28;52
You never know
what you're walking in to.

00;20;28;52 - 00;20;30;25
And I don't blame them.

00;20;30;25 - 00;20;36;00
If you understand where
that person just came from, you know, from

00;20;36;05 - 00;20;41;20
working two, you know, two jobs
and being in debt can't pay their rent.

00;20;41;25 - 00;20;46;01
You know, it's 98 degrees outside and
the air conditioners broke in the subway.

00;20;46;06 - 00;20;51;11
One little bump,
one little conflict will cause a fire.

00;20;51;24 - 00;20;55;54
And I think we see that all around us

00;20;55;59 - 00;20;56;51
everywhere.

00;20;56;51 - 00;21;00;08
And instead of reacting,
we need to figure out

00;21;00;08 - 00;21;03;35
how to pause and respond
better to situations.

00;21;03;40 - 00;21;07;47
So are there resources

00;21;07;52 - 00;21;11;48
or organization
that you would recommend our listeners

00;21;11;48 - 00;21;16;57
explore to learn more
about the politics of partnership?

00;21;17;02 - 00;21;19;40
Well, I would start with Riane’s books.

00;21;19;40 - 00;21;23;15
I share her readings and

00;21;23;20 - 00;21;27;14
talk about what she has done

00;21;27;19 - 00;21;30;04
and the work
that she's trying to put forward.

00;21;30;04 - 00;21;33;04
But locally, I work

00;21;33;06 - 00;21;37;18
closely with organizations that

00;21;37;23 - 00;21;42;04
deal with the care workers
that are left behind.

00;21;42;09 - 00;21;44;20
So in New York,

00;21;44;20 - 00;21;48;16
there's a group called
Ain't I a Woman Campaign.

00;21;48;16 - 00;21;53;13
AIW and Flushing Workers Center,

00;21;53;18 - 00;21;56;36
a local nonprofit group in my district.

00;21;56;50 - 00;22;01;08
And they've been representing the home
care workers that have suffered

00;22;01;13 - 00;22;03;17
from years of wage theft.

00;22;03;17 - 00;22;05;03
In New York State.

00;22;05;03 - 00;22;09;22
There's a total of as an industry,
about $6 billion

00;22;09;37 - 00;22;14;20
in the last 12 years
that they're owed in back wage.

00;22;14;24 - 00;22;18;29
And these are now workers
that are getting older themselves.

00;22;18;29 - 00;22;22;10
And some of them unfortunately have
passed, you know, fighting the good fight.

00;22;22;23 - 00;22;27;09
And, you know,
for me to see what they've done

00;22;27;09 - 00;22;31;48
and what they're
going through, even with all

00;22;31;53 - 00;22;34;53
the government agencies and

00;22;34;53 - 00;22;37;20
the lawyers and everyone have told them
that they don't have a shot

00;22;37;20 - 00;22;39;46
at getting the money back,
they have persisted.

00;22;39;46 - 00;22;40;59
They're not giving up.

00;22;40;59 - 00;22;45;41
They're continuing to try to build
more coalitions around their cause.

00;22;45;45 - 00;22;49;21
And we're still
I'm still learning with them it's

00;22;49;21 - 00;22;53;06
been about a two year fight,
but we're still continuously

00;22;53;11 - 00;22;56;11
working with them
because if you can't get it right.

00;22;56;21 - 00;22;59;00
And if you can't build the very foundation

00;22;59;00 - 00;23;02;51
of how we build the home care sector,

00;23;02;56 - 00;23;05;25
the entire ecosystem of care
could be ruined.

00;23;05;25 - 00;23;09;08
And that's why, you know, we're
very passionate about getting this right,

00;23;09;10 - 00;23;09;58
telling the truth.

00;23;09;58 - 00;23;13;45
We might not get every dollar that’s owed,
but at least not gaslight these

00;23;13;45 - 00;23;16;07
workers into thinking that,

00;23;16;12 - 00;23;16;43
you know,

00;23;16;43 - 00;23;19;37
they're the ones that did something wrong,
like let's tell the truth

00;23;19;37 - 00;23;21;50
so we don't repeat these mistakes
moving forward.

00;23;21;50 - 00;23;26;40
And these are mostly workers
that are paid through Medicaid.

00;23;26;40 - 00;23;29;13
So they serve low income communities.

00;23;29;13 - 00;23;35;02
And it's also symbolic of a state,

00;23;35;07 - 00;23;40;01
unlike some other states
that in-source care work in California.

00;23;40;05 - 00;23;43;49
Every county, for example, has a long term
care authority

00;23;43;54 - 00;23;47;21
that actually pays for homecare workers.

00;23;47;28 - 00;23;53;10
So it's a quasi government model
where homecare workers are viewed

00;23;53;15 - 00;23;56;49
and seen and treated as public servants,
doing public duty.

00;23;56;54 - 00;23;59;52
But in New York,
we've made a choice to outsource

00;23;59;52 - 00;24;04;19
that work to third parties
since the 1980s.

00;24;04;24 - 00;24;06;50
So no one took responsibility

00;24;06;50 - 00;24;08;58
nor wanted to take responsibility.

00;24;08;58 - 00;24;15;16
And, you know, ten, 15 years later, now we're dealing with billions of waste theft,

00;24;15;21 - 00;24;16;38
mostly targeting

00;24;16;38 - 00;24;19;30
immigrant women and women of color

00;24;19;30 - 00;24;22;18
that desperately needed this money.

00;24;22;18 - 00;24;25;18
And they were promised this money
when they got into the industry,

00;24;25;21 - 00;24;29;46
but they were just left behind
because, again, we have a long history

00;24;29;51 - 00;24;33;29
where people do not care about care.

00;24;33;34 - 00;24;36;34
We devalue and un-value care work.

00;24;36;37 - 00;24;40;24
And there isn't a clearer example
of that than this.

00;24;40;24 - 00;24;44;00
And that's why, based on Riane's
philosophy of the care economy

00;24;44;00 - 00;24;49;11
and building partnerships, I find myself
in this middle, middle of this conflict

00;24;49;12 - 00;24;53;18
and trying to apply her

00;24;53;22 - 00;24;57;17
philosophies
to fixing this very complicated problem.

00;24;57;22 - 00;24;58;34
Nice.

00;24;58;34 - 00;25;02;26
Well, for our listeners,
I will say that we will include links

00;25;02;26 - 00;25;06;38
to those organizations
in the show notes for today's episode,

00;25;06;43 - 00;25;11;28
as well as Riane's
The Real Wealth of Nations book.

00;25;11;33 - 00;25;15;23
Also in Riane Eisler's
Power of Partnership book,

00;25;15;23 - 00;25;18;41
she has a whole section in the back about

00;25;18;41 - 00;25;22;01
how to promote a partnership

00;25;22;01 - 00;25;23;52
political agenda.

00;25;23;52 - 00;25;28;29
So it includes resources
that really help us understand

00;25;28;29 - 00;25;30;48
the language that is used

00;25;30;48 - 00;25;33;32
and helps us develop the tools

00;25;33;32 - 00;25;38;36
to reclaim emotionally charged words
such as family

00;25;38;36 - 00;25;40;54
values and tradition,
which really can be embedding domination

00;25;40;54 - 00;25;44;32
values and tradition,
which really can be embedding domination

00;25;44;36 - 00;25;48;45
narratives versus
more of a partnership ethos.

00;25;48;45 - 00;25;52;01
So those will also be in the show notes
as well as the link

00;25;52;01 - 00;25;53;33
So those will also be in the show notes
as well as the link

00;25;53;33 - 00;25;59;03
for the centerforpartnership.org ,
where you are always welcome.

00;25;59;03 - 00;26;04;18
And we invite you to take
any of the courses to learn more about

00;26;04;30 - 00;26;09;38
Riane's cultural transformation theory,
the partnership-domination continuum

00;26;09;38 - 00;26;12;52
in everything we've spoken about today.

00;26;12;57 - 00;26;17;43
So, Assemblyman Kim, I'm wondering
if you have any final thoughts

00;26;17;43 - 00;26;22;12
that you would like to share
with our listeners today?

00;26;22;16 - 00;26;25;33
Every time I engage with Riane's

00;26;25;38 - 00;26;29;21
network and circle, it's very timely.

00;26;29;21 - 00;26;33;32
It's always timely
because in the world of politics,

00;26;33;32 - 00;26;38;18
you have a lot of demoralizing moments
where even though

00;26;38;18 - 00;26;43;55
deep inside you seek
and want this type of partnership,

00;26;44;00 - 00;26;44;45
you're often find

00;26;44;45 - 00;26;47;45
yourself surrounded by people who

00;26;47;54 - 00;26;50;43
all want something else,
who all want to win

00;26;50;43 - 00;26;57;21
and climb to the top of power
and while punching down at others.

00;26;57;26 - 00;27;00;30
That's what American politics have become.

00;27;00;33 - 00;27;04;35
It's never about,
you know, punching up to build coalitions

00;27;04;35 - 00;27;08;31
beneath to change the world,
but it's about climbing up

00;27;08;31 - 00;27;10;23
and punching down on people.

00;27;10;23 - 00;27;13;03
And I hope

00;27;13;03 - 00;27;15;38
and I feel grateful, extremely grateful

00;27;15;38 - 00;27;19;25
that when I have these opportunities,

00;27;19;30 - 00;27;23;47
I feel like I can reset
and I can refocus on

00;27;23;52 - 00;27;26;28
why we're here in the first place.

00;27;26;28 - 00;27;30;44
So I'm inspired again, once again
by Riane.

00;27;30;44 - 00;27;33;47
And I hope that others who follow her work

00;27;33;47 - 00;27;36;47
will feel the same way moving forward.

00;27;37;00 - 00;27;41;46
Thank you so much for sharing your journey
and wisdom with us today.

00;27;41;51 - 00;27;44;40
And a huge thank you for all the work
you're doing

00;27;44;40 - 00;27;47;06
for the communities you serve.

00;27;47;06 - 00;27;48;16
Thank you so much for your time.

The Power of Partnership

Caregiving, Politics, and Prosperity with New York Assemblyman Ron Kim

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