124. The Courage to Be Vulnerable in a World of Heroes and Villains with Chris O'Neil

Ever wondered what truly defines heroism and villainy? In a thought-provoking journey, we confront the complex morality within comic book lore and beyond, specifically the rivalries that shape our beloved champions. We're not shying away from the emotional struggles heroes face, nor are we overlooking the nuanced intentions of their counterparts, with particular attention to characters like Magneto, who challenge the very fabric of moral absolutism. Former Marine Katie Palomino joins us, bringing a raw, firsthand perspective on gender dynamics in the military that propels our conversation into the evolving roles and battles both men and women face in modern society.

Navigating the minefield of self-improvement and emotional vulnerability, we aim to break down the barriers that prevent us from connecting deeply with ourselves and others. From the courage of admitting ignorance to the balancing act of masculine and feminine traits, we share personal anecdotes and insights that underscore the transformative power of genuine communication and self-awareness. Listeners are invited on a reflective journey that not only interrogates societal norms but also fosters a safe space for growth, understanding, and authentic emotional expression.

Closing out our discussion, the episode takes a hard look at some of today's most contentious issues, including reproductive rights and the ethics of abortion. We don't shy away from the tough debates, aiming to provide a balanced examination of the complexities surrounding these deeply personal choices. In a world filled with judgment and polarizing views, our dialogue encourages you to learn, engage, and maybe even evolve your perspective on leadership, relationships, and the intricate dance of life itself.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

so with uh, with batman and superman, it was one of those things I did a training on it before. Uh, there was a a problem they had with superman back in the 90s I think it was. It was late 90s, early 2000s. There's a big problem with superman. He's been around for a long time, right, and the issue with superman was that he was too strong yep, they couldn't figure out anything for him to do yeah, the the.

Speaker 1: 0:42

The thing is is that a hero is defined by their villain. What you have to overcome is what makes you the hero in the story, and when every single thing that you have to fight is a global world ending event, it gets a little boring. After a while. It's like oh, another invasion, superman has to stop, okay well, and that to that point.

Speaker 2: 1:05

That's that's why I appreciate him so much more, because the real battle for him is the humanity. It's overcoming his own shortcomings, not blowing out a star with his breath, you know Right sneezing the world out of orbit. Yeah exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Well, that's a really interesting thing for him. People started having a hard time writing good villains. Actually, it's today's issue is they don't know how to scale appropriately to make it so like a bad guy can be appropriately tough. They've done it with. Pretty much everything that's been like good is now struggling right now because they don't know how to write. I think writers are really struggling right now. They can't write good things.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Well, and I think it's changed too, because it used to be so easy, because it was black and white good versus evil, good guys, bad guys, heroes and villains well, even look at uh x-men, for example, they blurred the line really hard.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Magneto is he a good guy or a bad guy?

Speaker 1: 2:00

yeah, depends on your point of view. Right, yeah, if you're a mutant, he's a good guy, because his whole thing was save our people. We gotta save our people. And he was coming from the uh, you know, the, the concentration camp, the jews, and he was like look at us, like they're going to eradicate us, they're going to wipe us out, they're going to kill us all. We have to protect our people, and so the only way to protect our people is to kill the ones who want to kill us. It's just evolution, yeah, and so it's like we have. We're homo superior. We have to kill homo sapien. That's the only way that we protect our people, otherwise they'll kill us all. Is he the good guy or is he the bad guy?

Speaker 2: 2:41

yeah, and again it's. I think his intentions are good, but like anything, and especially, you go into the hero's journey. You know being the hero of your own story. You're always the good guy, like darth vader is a good guy to himself, right? So yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:54

And he was, he definitely was at the beginning.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Well, at the beginning, yeah, yeah, and but you just keep going down that rabbit hole of justification. Well, I'm doing this for this reason, for this reason, for this reason, and then suddenly you find yourself, you know so deep that you know that people don't recognize you. You don't recognize yourself and and yeah, it's for me, it all comes down to intention and action. Right, you can have the best intentions in the world, but if, if the action skews or you're hurting yourself and others, regardless of your reason, you know and that, and that's where the gray area is for sure, because you have like, just take the real world, any opposing sides, forget about, um, you know, religious wars and things like that. It's more like wars, as you're talking about, for saving a race or a way of life or innocent lives, things like that. And then you have arguments from both sides that seem to be equally justified. And then you have arguments from both sides that seem to be equally justified. It's just what the actual actions are and how those affect all of those people.

Speaker 1: 4:00

Yeah, both sides think they're the good guy.

Speaker 2: 4:02

Right.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Right, that's gotten complicated.

Speaker 2: 4:07

I remember when I learned that when I was younger, the idea of history and how that very common phrase that we all know now, history is written by the victors. And before that point it was again, it was just black and white. It's like, oh okay, well, these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. It's not that simple.

Speaker 1: 4:25

Yeah, it gets complicated because we would do the same thing with the Joseph Campbell thing. We do a training for that too. Like, you are the hero of your story but a lot of times, like we don't necessarily understand that the villains are in you, thousand percent. Like your, your, your greatest battle is going to be having to defeat the sins of the father within yourself. You know, having to beat the bad, the demons inside of you. Uh, being able to not just create justification but really be justified in a way that makes it so you are good you are, you are actually the hero in the story, but the a lot of us wish it was an external battle.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Well, and ironically enough, we project that right. So it's we view external things as the battle, when they're really reflections of those internal struggles.

Speaker 1: 5:14

They really are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, even I was just training with a guy right before this where I'm like I'm like, tell me what you're fighting. He's like man I got cheated on and this person did this and that person hurt me and I'm like, well, let's go ahead and see what the thing you're actually battling with here. Yeah, and then once.

Speaker 1: 5:29

I very simply just put the thing on the table. He's like actually it doesn't make any sense why I'd be mad at that. I'm like right, that's when you actually fight the thing Instead of all the feelings around the thing, you realize that the battle itself is very easily won, and this is where they need people like us. And so let's continue this. But first, welcome back Battlefield of Mind.

Speaker 2: 6:00

I'm Rick. I'm here with Chris O'Neill and Chris, just tell the people who you are, let's do the thing, and then let's jump back into being awesome. Two, I live in los angeles and, um, as of right now, I am uh, my main gig is a stay-at-home dad, but I'm also an emotion coach for men and fathers, and I'll leave it short and sweet like that we can get into the details of how I got there.

Speaker 1: 6:25

But yeah, that's me yeah, help, help people out here because, like, uh, there's good conversations I know we're gonna to have on this. What the heck is an emotion coach?

Speaker 2: 6:35

Fair enough, and I certainly self-labeled, because that seemed to be the best descriptor of what I'm doing, and obviously we'll get into this more. But I had a major life experience back in 2019. A major life experience back in 2019. And it just slammed me emotionally and I wasn't ready for it because I had been really working on myself for a solid 15 years and I didn't realize until that year that I wasn't actually feeling my emotions.

Speaker 2: 7:12

And so I went into this really year-long journey of trying to figure that out and, in the course of doing that, realized how many of the men that I'm associated with and talk to regularly are in the same position. And so I started getting into more emotional regulation, understanding the breakdown of the process of how story gets stuck in my head and all of that. And it just hit me how badly, especially going through midlife, when I was, as I said, I'm 44. So this is back in, you know, when I was 39, 40. And it just I needed to understand emotion, I needed to understand how to feel emotion. And going through that process and coming up with my own process and then talking to other men about it, I was like, oh okay that makes a whole lot of sense, and so I started with emotional regulation coach or emotional intelligence coach.

Speaker 2: 8:14

And so I started with emotional regulation coach or emotional intelligence coach, and those are very specific, which is fine. Specificity is a good thing. But I realized I do a little bit more than that, so I just settled on emotion coach because it seemed like the best label I was looking for.

Speaker 1: 8:31

You're not wrong. I want us going to. I want us to do something. First, I just want to make sure anybody who listens to this if you haven't hung out with me or listen to my stuff I want you to do something that you probably don't necessarily get to do very often on podcasts with me, which is really, really challenge the fuck out of me on this one. Okay, so like um, being able to get in and open up heart side or even spirit side on this one is it's definitely the hardest battle.

Speaker 1: 8:57

For women, I've noticed the denial element goes into truth and reality, and for guys, the hardest battle is emotions or feelings. Like it's the one. So you found the thing. You found like the denial that we do is suppress all of our emotions. We push them down, and I'm with you. As soon as I cracked heart side, I was like, oh shit, like I didn't realize all the stuff is there. So I want you to really push on me to see how far I've gone in this, and I want to do the same with you so that way people can go. This is what two jedi masters look like, and so I want you to please don't training wheels me push hard to go in, like, do you really do the thing? And I want you to please don't training wheels me hard to go in, like, do you really do the thing? And I want people to be able to see what does it look like when people at our level really push each other.

Speaker 2: 9:39

Okay, All right, I will. I will add a caveat to that, though, and I appreciate the acknowledgement and the label, but I would not call myself a Jedi master in this vein, only because I'm still learning, and that's of course. But that's my favorite aspect of and what I settled on when I got into this work was you know, when are you ready to actually help somebody else or teach somebody else? Who am I? To do these things for other people when I haven't figured it all out for myself to do these things for other people when I haven't figured it all out for myself? And it just landed right in the middle of when I have gleaned enough wisdom and absorbed enough information that I can pass that on, then I'm ready. It doesn't mean I know everything, it doesn't mean I'm the best at it, it just means I can help.

Speaker 1: 10:33

So how much wisdom do you need to help somebody then?

Speaker 2: 10:36

Enough that you can share that experience with someone else and they gain something from it.

Speaker 1: 10:43

Okay, so we just have to have a little more than the other person.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Right, because there's always going to be people that know more than you. There's always going to be people that know less than you, and it's a matter of having confidence in the fact that you have gone through what you've gone through and being able to share that experience and that perspective.

Speaker 1: 10:59

So, I have one chapter ahead and I'm ready to help.

Speaker 2: 11:02

Yeah, I honestly believe that it doesn't mean you can do everything, but yeah, you're ready to help Well.

Speaker 1: 11:09

I think that's the part of it is not saying that I can do everything. And this is where wisdom comes from not knowing. And this is you know, socrates has been coming up often for people with, like, being the wisest man in the world is the man who's humble enough to go. I don't know anything about this, you know. And so when I do confidence training for people, I tell people like well, challenge me something different, ask me a hard question. Tell people like well, challenge, challenge me something different, ask me a hard question, ask me something there's no way I could ever know. Yeah, and they'll usually give me like okay, well, I work in these things.

Speaker 1: 11:37

What's the equation of this thing? For that that does this thing? And I'm like I have no idea. What is it Like? Well, actually, what it is is. And then they just go right into telling me I'm like get you, I just confidently didn't know, and that made you teach me. So now I learned, so, thank you. We leveled up together. And it's things like this where people get in their own way, thinking that I have to know everything to be able to have a good conversation with someone who knows more.

Speaker 2: 12:05

Well, and I have found more confidence in saying I don't know than I ever have in saying something I'm aware of Correct, Like just the, the strength and the power that I feel confidently looking someone else in the eyes and saying I don't know. Yeah, Do you know? Tell me, I'd love to learn or I'll go find out.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I'd like to hear your opinion. I'd like to hear your opinion. Sure, well, it doesn't mean you know it doesn't Versus an awareness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, still facts get updated with new information. You're like well, did you test it this way? Well, that changes the fact. So now the new fact is I do that with gravity newton wasn't wrong that apple got pulled down and hit him in the head until einstein came along right.

Speaker 1: 12:45

Einstein was like actually it's pushing down, it's not pulling down same gravity. Well, it was a fact. It pulled you down until einstein came along, and now it's a fact it pushes you down. So they're both right right in different iterations.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Well, and there I'll have to geek out again and go to star wars with uh um obi-wan saying he was right from a certain point of view so there you are correct, and that's that's.

Speaker 1: 13:11

That's kind of the thing is like how much wisdom do you need? It's the. The reality is is we know nothing or control nothing. We can only have the aspects of ourselves that we're able to be at peace with what's what is, and that's where we end up helping a lot of people through emotion stuff all the time. Heart side is complicated. Do you know the most? What's the most complicated thing that you have with hard side? I'll tell you mine in a second. But now that you're an emotion coach, what is the hardest part about this, this job, especially working with guys?

Speaker 2: 13:44

Oh you already said it getting past myself to help them. So, and and ironically enough, that that was a big breakthrough for me was the reason I want to do this is because I still need this, and the more I help others, the more I get it for myself. Yeah, so it's a reciprocal thing. It is, and that's what I love about it, but it's it's my favorite part, but it's also the hardest part.

Speaker 1: 14:08

Hit me with something. Give me like my client, give me something where, like man, I'm really struggling. How would you hard side me so that way I can see like I'm gonna give?

Speaker 2: 14:15

me well, I mean forest trick number one. Well, I'd have to like give me something specific you're struggling with um, let's say I'm struggling with doubt, like I.

Speaker 1: 14:26

Really. I just don't feel like I'm good enough.

Speaker 2: 14:27

Uh, you know my so doubt so a little bit of imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1: 14:32

I don't know if it's imposter syndrome. I just don't feel good enough.

Speaker 2: 14:35

Good enough for what.

Speaker 1: 14:37

Being able to start a business or have a goal, or I just you know everything I seem to do. The people around me tell me I can't do it All right.

Speaker 2: 14:44

So you're morally, you're assigning a morality to your life.

Speaker 1: 14:48

What's the morality to it?

Speaker 2: 14:51

Well, if, if, if we're saying it's good or bad, right, you're not good enough, is what?

Speaker 1: 14:57

you're really saying I'm not good enough yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:00

So my foundational thing with anything is do I deserve to be here? You wouldn't be here if you weren't, if you weren't worthy of being here, you wouldn't be here. So that's foundation number one. So because I'm here, I'm worthy of being here, correct, all right, what if I don't believe that? Well, first I'd ask you do you want to believe that?

Speaker 1: 15:23

I don't know, I didn't even like. How do I associate because I'm here? I deserve to be here. I don't know. If that's true, what if I'm struggling with that part?

Speaker 2: 15:31

Well, if you're struggling with that part, you have to figure out what it is that you want to feel. How do you want to feel in your life? I?

Speaker 1: 15:39

feel not good enough. So I don't know what I want to feel. I need your help. I want to feel Help me, right, okay, I can't do it for you. I'm looking for the feelings box. Where's the feelings at?

Speaker 2: 15:58

The first place to start, if you have no idea, is simple go into a self-assessment. All I mean by that is notice what your body is telling you, and I mean physically. If you have no idea how to feel your emotions and I've struggled with this myself, so I totally get it start with what you do feel. I feel hungry. I can taste the coffee that I just drank. I am sore in my ankle because I twisted it the other day. That's it, and you're not going into story. This is the other trap why I twisted my ankle? Because, oh yeah, that asshole pushed me. No, no, no, no, it does not matter. It doesn't Not that it doesn't matter in general. It doesn't matter for what you're trying to do. You are trying to build a skill of identifying what you're feeling, and that starts with physical sensations, because those are the easiest to get. It's a low-hanging fruit.

Speaker 1: 16:48

That would be the place to start. So notice my body first. Notice, like, what's going on with your body. Just start off with like you know you can. I can feel I'm holding my pen. I can feel the heat from the room. I can feel like the taste of my coffee. I can catch that.

Speaker 2: 17:02

And go into as much detail as possible and notice the subtlety. If you actually have to stop and think, are you hungry right now? If you actually have to stop and think, are you hungry right now? If you can't answer me right away that's actually a good thing Then you have to sit and think about it.

Speaker 1: 17:16

What's that? It means?

Speaker 2: 17:17

I'm not hungry. Well, not necessarily. Because there could be a all physical sensations start very subtly right. I mean, if you break your leg.

Speaker 2: 17:26

You know, in the moment obviously that's not a subtle thing, but the gradual natural occurrences in the body when you feel a need to go to the bathroom, when you start to feel hungry. You know any of those day-to-day yeah, exactly any of those day-to-day sensations come on gradually, so the more you can identify them, the more often you can identify them earlier, the more subtlety you can pick up on, the more nuance. Then, ironically enough, because you feel your emotions in your body, even though we think it's up here, you're then able.

Speaker 1: 18:01

What's that?

Speaker 2: 18:02

because we're thinking our emotions correct yeah, then we're able to actually pick up on the much on things when they're much more subtle. And we don't. We actually. We actually have to stop and feel we can't just yep, there it is, it's not apparent and I think, most men tend to wait until things are apparent yeah, well, we, we.

Speaker 1: 18:24

I definitely agree with you that us guys wait until we're in crisis to start to go, like wait a second, I think I need help. Like like there's smoke in the house, like I got it, I got it, I got it, you know, and then it's out of control, like maybe I should call for help here and you're like the house is already half up on fire before you even ask for help. Can I start beginning learning how to be a firefighter now that the house is on fire?

Speaker 2: 18:46

Right, there you go, literally.

Speaker 1: 18:57

Buckle your seatbelt as you're in the. Getting into a car accident doesn't work that way. We're gonna go ahead and start with, uh, how to handle an insurance claim, and then we'll work on the next house. All right, so no, but this is, it's a good example. I, like you said, notice the body and start feeling the low hanging fruit first and going body side, um is definitely a useful way to start, but breaking in the heart side and spirit side is very difficult. The hardest thing that I noticed is the same thing we just did back and forth is the meaning of words.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Words is the hardest thing how do you explain an emotion? You know it's one of those things that's very difficult is because the feelings or the thoughts that we have inside of us are bigger than our bodies give us credit for.

Speaker 2: 19:33

And I would say, that's why you need to start always with everything, with yourself but the words and your different things to each other.

Speaker 1: 19:41

That's where it's. That's why it's hard is if I said for sure, I just want to make sure you, really we respect each other. It's like, well, what's respect? Well, um, yeah, well, respect is when? Um, because what you do is you. I want to make sure that and you're like, you can't tell me what the fuck it is, can you? It's a word that we need, but I don't know how to tell you how to do it or what. It is Sure, and it's those kinds of things where I've done expert level trainings with this.

Speaker 1: 20:09

Even just words like that happiness, leadership, respect, all these words like what is it? And it turns into a two or three hour conversation because the words are hard to use to explain connection. It's hard to explain the emotion. It's hard to explain how much do you love your kids. You're like, well, I can tell you a lot, but I can't that the words will never do justice to the connection to that. You know, I will die for my women or my people, you know, and you're like that's a really big thing. You'll sacrifice every single thing you have for them. It's like, how do I quantify that into a sentence that really magnifies the amount of emotion.

Speaker 2: 20:48

And I will say for sure, especially the love aspect of something. How do you quantify how much love you feel? It's honestly impossible. All you can use is analogies, and even then it falls short Exactly.

Speaker 2: 21:00

But I will say that, and I have found this personally that descriptors of emotion, those can actually, you can actually get to a place where you can describe that. And again, that's why you need to start with yourself, because when you can identify something for yourself, or you can use descriptors that make sense to you, then you can meet someone. If, if they're using the same word to mean something else, then, because you already have a definition, now you can say, okay, this is where I end and you begin, and I think that's true of navigating your emotions anyway, because we get caught up in all our emotions, get like this with somebody else, and then we think, oh well, it's him, him, him, no, no, no, no, it's you, you, you, but you don't know where your stuff ends and theirs begins, and that's the problem, right. So, being able to start with self and get that at least foundationally clarified.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Yeah, then you can go ahead.

Speaker 1: 21:58

You're right where you started with awareness, and that's the first lesson. The first weapon we put in the arsenal for our warriors is the same thing you said Be able to be aware of yourself, be aware, just, pay attention. Just it's right there all the time. What's autopilot look like for you? What triggers do you have? What defenses are right there Like it's? Do you even know? Because I can't help you fight something if you don't know it's there and you can't make a decision on something you don't know what exists. You can't choose what you don't know Absolutely. And so I'm with you where you said that we have to start with awareness. I also enjoyed that. You said hold on, watch out for the story, because the story takes you in the weeds A lot of times.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Simplicity is genius when it comes to heart side and I watch people. This is something where I don't know if you get into spirit side stuff. But we have all the training. So even the Warriors Way is not a church group, but I have a lot of I'm Christian, other guys in there are Christian, some guys are spiritual and they connect different ways. We don't judge anybody's journey in any of that stuff. It's not what we do. Our job isn't to tell people they need to believe what I believe. It's just you keep digging, you'll find it. And so, on both heart side and spirit side, it's different from mind side and body side.

Speaker 1: 23:07

Because, mind side and body side, if I said, chris, when it comes to your tactics and your workouts and your actions and your family and all the things that you've got, that you take care of, all your doings, you need to surrender. You're like no, the fuck, I don't. I will fight to the last man, I will. I am not surrendering. No, that will make me lose. I'll fail, I'll give up, I'll quit. This is not winning. I don't see that make me lose. I'll fail, I'll give up, I'll quit. This is not winning. I don't see that. But when it comes to feeling, and it comes to, you know, spirit and connection, well, you have to surrender and you're like, nope, that's a bad word.

Speaker 1: 23:49

Yeah, well, yeah, and that's also that ties in with vulnerability, because so many men think vulnerability is a bad word, yeah, and when you started with vulnerability, this is this is a topic I'm going to lean on you first before I do any of my stuff. Sure, I'm going to lean on you first. This is the one where it is probably the most screwed up for guys that I see the people like many to be vulnerable the way they do. It is so far off.

Speaker 1: 24:12

Let's, let's do some some tennis here to fix this for the world, because there's too many coaches who keep going like, just share all the emotions and you're like, no, no, the guys do not fucking do that you'll, you'll be divorced this year. Like, hold on, there's a, there's a right way to do this. Please help people with a guy learning vulnerability. And how a man not everyone's opinion, your opinion how does a man begin to start understanding his vulnerability?

Speaker 2: 24:44

well again, and I'll go to relationship with that in a second, because I actually had a great thing on TikTok that I stitched and it was exactly this that we're talking about. But again, starting with self, that's the biggest hurdle for anything, because if you're alone and you're judging yourself based on how you know whatever word you want to use, how manly you are, or you know, I can't I can't cry when I'm by myself, because men don't cry Like you, have no one there to judge you, and you still can't do it. So you're judging yourself. So you're, you're hanging on to these established judgments that, more often than not, are not from you. They're ingrained in your subconscious from from your youth or the zeitgeist of you know the status quo and you're not able to get past that in order to do the work. So can you first be vulnerable with yourself? Can you look at yourself in the mirror and say I love you? You know how hard that is. No, I'm a big old pile of shit. I can't love myself. First of all, I can't even use that. I can say it to my wife and my kids, of course, and I think that's that's the biggest starting point is being vulnerable with yourself, getting comfortable with that, noticing how uncomfortable it is and continuing to do it, which is bravery. So starting there and then, once you're reasonably comfortable, the ability to share what's going on internally with someone else. Obviously, again, the recommendation there from me, and my opinion, is to start with someone that you do love and care about, that you are close to, that can hold space for you while you fumble over this process that you're going to, because it's new, and the going to the tick tock that I mentioned.

Speaker 2: 26:50

The question was what's the difference between emotionally dumping on someone versus being vulnerable with someone? And I think that goes with what you had started to say is we're not just going to empty out everything that's going on and then say see, that's me being vulnerable. The difference there is being strategic what are you trying to get, what is your goal, what do you need? And the argument from the other side of you know oh well, that's just emotion dumping or, excuse me, that's being vulnerable. And then my wife or girlfriend or the woman I'm with is throwing it back at me and saying you're a whiny little bitch or you're all this man up and do these things. Why are you dumping all of this on me. I'm just trying to be vulnerable. So you know what, screw it. I'm never doing that again. I'm holding it all in because I need to appear a certain way as a man way as a man.

Speaker 2: 27:56

And going back to the idea of black and white, you're going from one extreme to another. So once you understand the ability and get reasonably comfortable with being vulnerable with yourself and admitting certain things I don't know, i'm'm scared, I'm curious, I'm hopeful, whatever it is and being comfortable admitting that to yourself, the start of the conversation with someone else is that same thing. You're not going into story. You're saying I'm scared, I'm sad, I'm mad, and allowing that to land and then responding to what comes back at you as opposed to I'm mad and this is why, and, and it's all this and you and that you are emotionally dumping on somebody, and how do you think they're going to take that that? You know it's like you're fire hosing them.

Speaker 2: 28:54

And I think so many men we have, we crave that connection and that ability and the feeling that comes with the relief of sharing and having that connection. But because we have all of the other societal norm, you know, you got to be a man, you got to suck it up. You got to do this. Um, we perceive that we only have these tiny little like almost microscopic windows to do those things, so when it comes, we just fire, hose everything we have at it and look at it like, oh well, oh okay good, I got it all out now I'm better as opposed to just like being a father.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Raising your children is not an in the moment thing. It's an ongoing marathon accumulative process, and that's how being vulnerable has to be as well.

Speaker 1: 30:52

All right. So we've got a lot of pieces here I got to go through. It seems like the categories that we start off with. There's two different areas in this one. There's the self part, and then the longer one was the others part, being able to have that connection or validation or whatever it would be for the emotions or needs you have from others. Starting with the the first one, it seems like that both categories have like the positive version of something and a negative version of something, so positive vulnerability, and then the negative version, which would be like the negative talk or the dumping. You know we're like blah, here's all the stuff and it's like I'm overwhelmed. So like we'll start off with the self one. It's really tricky with the positive and negative one Because, like you said, the judgments are the stories that were put into us before and, like you said, these are beliefs that were put in there that somebody said you know well, here's the judgment of you, and then you applied that to your identity my belief system agrees, and so then I shall be that, and so the judgments that shape the way that you feel about vulnerability, like don't cry, you need to be tough and you can't do those things. It also shuts down the positive side too.

Speaker 1: 32:00

When it comes to love yourself, it's too whimsical. Again, it's the words are the problem, like well, what's love, so I can know? If I do it, you know I do it for me. How do I do that? What's love so I can do it? Well, there's 10,000 books on it. We can start from any of them, but there's a paschillion ways that people try to describe love. The problem again is words. We're using English to to describe an emotion or a connection that seems beyond words. So shit, we're already in this. It seems like the reason for existing is somewhere wrapped in with this love thing. So now I have to figure out how to love myself.

Speaker 1: 32:38

This is kind of where I look at it, almost like dating. If I went on our first date, if you were, you and I were on our first date you know we'll make it a little less straight than normal, but we're on a first date it wouldn't be like hey, now that I'm here, you just love me, you know, just, you love me. So I love you, you love me, we just love now. And you're like hold on, I don't even know you, let me. Let's start with like okay, let's begin with. Do I even like before I maybe I can have a crush and then maybe I can, like you know, kind of be a little bit infatuated and then go into love? Is there at least steps here, or do I just have to jump right into just I love you like.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Well, no, and I was using it as an example, and I would say that I do agree, as you're saying, that words can get in the way, but I also think that the fear of a word or a phrase in and of itself can be a help with getting comfortable with something, because, regardless of God.

Speaker 1: 33:46

What do you mean by that? The fear of a phrase? What do you mean by a fear of a phrase?

Speaker 2: 33:50

to say I, I will speak for myself. Okay, as I said, standing in front of a mirror, looking at yourself, saying I love you, yeah right, that scares the shit out of me why, still, because I'm my programming, that I would say number one.

Speaker 2: 34:12

I was raised Catholic, so I have this very sinner mentality ingrained in me. I'm not allowed to love me, other people love me and that makes me lovable. I don't believe that, but that's in my programming. I'm a sinner, I cannot be saved, I cannot save myself. Uh, I will say uh. Additionally, I am not practicing anymore, but I was raised that way. Um, I personally don't uh practice any religion. Um, I'm, I'm very, very uh versed and uh acknowledge the spirit side of, or the divine side. Uh, I just don't attach a dogma to it, um, um, but that idea of I love myself, regardless of what love could possibly mean and how you describe it and what does that word mean to me versus somebody else, just getting past the fear of saying it, I think is is a very potent thing. Then you can get into the the nitty gritty of what that actually means and and how you define that. Because if you can't just if you can't even say it, then you're not going to explore it.

Speaker 1: 35:34

Yeah, so help me out. I want to like what's this? I still don't see what you're afraid of. Yet those are all the judgments that have led you up to being afraid, but I still don't see the fear.

Speaker 2: 35:44

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 35:49

So it, oh okay, so it would be other people's perceptions of me, but that's not you in the mirror though fuck them, I'm just well.

Speaker 2: 35:52

Why you in the mirror? Yeah, because it's in, it's in here all right.

Speaker 1: 35:55

So when you look at somebody saw me- doing this again. Well, this is where I'm having a hard time connecting. Okay, there's nobody else in the room. You're in your bathroom like there's nobody else in there, so what if somebody sees you in there loving you like? I don't see nobody's in there, though, so the fear element is still confusing to me, because there is no actual thing there all right foundationally.

Speaker 2: 36:16

What does it mean about me in my own judgments, yeah, to say this thing it's the same, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna cut to the chase here.

Speaker 1: 36:26

It's the. The training that I would look at on this one is what is the common enemy for each one of these pieces? That's in the way, and if you're looking at what makes it so that I can't love me, you said it's the judgments of others from my past has created a belief system to make it so that I can't do that.

Speaker 2: 36:43

I'm a sinner, I'm not good enough.

Speaker 1: 36:44

That's a part of it. There's a thing there, all right, that needs to be challenged. That's judgment, all right. But then you also have the judgments that I've had from before for, like positive and negative, don't judge or don't cry and don't do these things. And so I don't even know if I can even like me, because I'm not good enough, because other people have told me that. Another set of judgments. And then, whenever I go into my partner, I have to be strategic and not emotionally dump. Why? Because they'll call me a bitch or they'll say I need to man up and they'll do these things. More judgments. And then, if I need to go and connect with somebody, instead of just blame throwing and going all nuts on everybody else, I have to be able to be you know just more deliberate in what it is that I need. Otherwise they're going to start creating a story for me, and this story itself would then go into more judgments. It seems like the common enemy here is judgment. So why don't we just fight judgment?

Speaker 2: 37:39

As a foundational idea.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Let's just kill that one real quick. If we can get rid of what a judgment is and we know how to watch and defeat judgment, well then all these other pieces get a lot easier because the poison is removed. So why don't we cut off the source here of poison, which seems to be blame, shame or judgment? Let's cut that piece off and then now let's try to run the equation without the opinions of others corrupting the entire thing, which well there's the question for you, then what?

Speaker 2: 38:06

how would you define and eliminate judgment as a, as an idea?

Speaker 1: 38:11

Yeah, Well, it's a good question. The way that I'd start is first identifying it. If somebody has an opinion, they're going to come in a very specific way and generally they'll come in doubt or fear. Now, fear and doubt are very, very easy because, well, they hate being challenged. They don't like it and this is why it's warrior talk.

Speaker 1: 38:29

Well, let's challenge it. Give me anything. You're a sinner? Okay, you're a sinner. You don't deserve love. All right, that's just a made up ass statement right there. Let's see what you got there. Let's test it out. Well, no, I actually I care a lot about people. I like helping people. I got a lot of things. I have to challenge this. Let me go in. What are you offering me? What is your offer If you're telling me that I shouldn't have worth, I shouldn't believe in myself, I'm a sinner, I don't deserve good things? What are you offering me If I listen to you, me live. Be the judger, be the judgey, like the judger, I'm the judgey. You're telling me I'm a sinner and I don't deserve love or whatever. All right, what are? What's the offer then? What if I follow your advice and I listened to your judgment? What do I get?

Speaker 2: 39:20

So you're personifying judgment as as an enemy. As an enemy, okay, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. Um, so what is that enemy offering you?

Speaker 1: 39:29

yes, so please if somebody gives me this like you're a sinner, you don't deserve love, well, what's your offer then? What? What's what's your? If we're doing a business deal and I were to consider your contract of I'm a sinner and I don't deserve love, what is, uh, what is the gain?

Speaker 2: 39:42

well, the the game there, if you're doing that specifically, would be you're this, so I can present a different solution for you. That's not in you, right?

Speaker 1: 39:53

So now I can have power over you.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Or only God can love you, or only somebody else can love you.

Speaker 1: 40:02

So I would have to judge you so that I can then insert some sort of new belief to control you? Sure, so then judgment is going to be just an authoritarian way to knock off your defenses. So then I can add in a new belief system, and then you do what I want. Yeah, so that means the offer is then that if I follow what you say, I won't be me. I'll be what you tell me to be, without question, but you'll fit in. Oh no, no, I'll be what you tell me to be, without question.

Speaker 1: 40:29

But, you'll fit in, oh no, no, I'm listening. Fit in with who, though? The people who just want to control me?

Speaker 2: 40:33

Well, it's that foundational desire to belong.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Of course, which is fine. I can still have that. I just want to know why do I want to belong with this group? What's the offer here? This seems to be a group that wants to control me and tell me that I'm not good enough so they can tell me what I need to be for them, but then it's a very human positions. Now this isn't. God.

Speaker 1: 40:56

So, what am I as the judgment giving you for if I agree to this terms and conditions, what do I get? If I follow your terms and conditions that I'm a sinner and I don't deserve love, and I listen to you, what's the offer? What do I get? I'm going to take your deal. I get what?

Speaker 2: 41:16

And see. For me, that's just acceptance and belonging, and that's such a powerful thing that that's what's coming up for me.

Speaker 1: 41:24

I still have to challenge acceptance and belonging from who? People who want me to not be me so that they can do, they can treat me however they want. That's the group I should want acceptance from.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Well, no, of course not and I would assume the offer though I would assume it's coming from, as is all.

Speaker 1: 41:46

Nope, not asking for assumptions. I'm asking for truth. You are my truth. Okay, where is it coming from? Somebody who wants to judge you into submission so that you belong? Do I want to belong to a group that does that? Well, you shouldn't Good. So now I'm looking at the offer. This doesn't seem like a healthy group. So if I want belonging and acceptance from an unhealthy group, I have to do what. What's the offer then? Have to agree that I'm a sinner and I don't deserve love. So that way, you can have me do compliance and you can regulate me to be what you think I should be, which at this point, we don't need any facts included. You can just make them up as you go along, because I'm fully compliant, based on shame, judgment, guilt, blame, sure. So now I have a. What type of relationship am I belonging to with blame, shame, judgment and guilt is the foundation for our dynamic, being able to be what it is. The offer seems like you're not really giving me much, you're just taking.

Speaker 2: 42:48

Yeah, absolutely. And but again the from my perspective that that feels like ingrained from childhood stuff.

Speaker 1: 42:57

That's just in but you didn't have any defenses. You had no armor. You were a kid. There's no way you could this these authorities that were supposed to be your trusted advisors, my parents, my parents, my leaders, the people around you. This is where I had no defense. As a child. I had no armor, no weapons, no training. I didn't know the difference between. But now that we're in training, now that we're trained or untrained, if I need to catch judgment, I need to recognize what is the offer. I need to challenge these things for authenticity. Otherwise I'll be sacrificing who I am, and I cannot love me if I am not me. So I need to challenge.

Speaker 1: 43:37

if you're actually pushing in on me to be me, or if you're, you're trying to judge me to be something different so that that way I can be included in the group that controls me, well, they won't like me for me, which means I'll have to be whatever you tell me to be. So I'm liked again. Then maybe I'll deserve love from you, which that group doesn't give love, by the way. Agreed. And so then I have to look at the offer. The offer seems like you're not offering anything, but what do you want? To take from me? Everything.

Speaker 1: 44:07

So then, on one hand, I can be authentic. I can follow my heart or my dream, my purpose, I can do things that feel fulfilling. I can, you know, find people that are part of my energies, or my vibe, or my goals, or my dreams, or my love or my whatever People who do really accept me, for me. So that way, when I'm looking at the belief systems of do, I look in the mirror and love me. It's based on authenticity and not judgment, shame, guilt or blame. So then I have to just challenge. If you're trying to make me doubt myself in order for me to fit in, and you're offering nothing and taking from me everything. I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to have to decline. I'm going to go ahead and go with potential, but I'm going to kindly decline your offer to fit in with people who just want me to be what they want me to be, so they can take everything that I have, including my identity. Yeah, and that's horrible.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Yeah, and so let's go ahead and shout so it seems like this judgment thing, let's go ahead and fuck that thing up so you can't get any of that. As soon as I crush the judgment, you can't get me as soon as I just cut that one piece, none of the other things. Afterwards I don't have to fight shame and guilt and blame because I just cut you off at judgment. I noticed that you threw judgment in. My armor is now up. I'm going to be challenging this to see. Is there authenticity here? Or are you just trying to create an authority based on knocking me down so that I comply? Well, that's not a leader, in which case you must not be trying to lead so that I shall check for judgment when I'm talking to myself.

Speaker 1: 45:37

If there is a judgment that comes up, I need to challenge. Where did that come from? Whose voice do I hear that says you're too short, too tall, too fat, ugly, stupid, whatever. The judgment is never going to make it. Not talented enough to whatever? Not enough, whatever? Whose voice? What are they trying to get? What's the offer If I take that and that's how doubt works it offers nothing.

Speaker 2: 46:04

It takes from you everything, and if you catch that motherfucker, he's easy to kill I do think too that and I hear, I hear everything you're saying and I, I would certainly agree, um, certainly in my experience, not only with myself but other men that I've worked with number one, the ability to identify whose voice that is, oh yeah, is very difficult.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Um, especially, oh, sure, but especially, you know it's because it's been in your head for so long. It feels like your voice, um, and I have found that it's a cyclical thing. Right, you start with something general, you get honed in on that Okay, now I understand this. Then you do something else that you get a little bit, and then you move on, and then you circle back to those original things that you said, like, whoa, I missed all of this other stuff here. Yeah, now I have the wisdom, knowledge and experience to dig into that from this perspective. And then you move on and then you circle back around again. So I guess, I guess I wasn't following you, uh, in the middle there, which is why I couldn't give you an answer.

Speaker 2: 47:25

But but, for me all of that, because it's a cyclical thing we're never going to stay in one place and get it all and then move on to the next thing and get it all and then move on to the next thing. At least that's how it worked for me and that's how I instruct. So because that can be overwhelming, and then, if it's too overwhelming, you give up.

Speaker 1: 47:47

People do. Yeah, it's trained or untrained, though. It's kind of like anything. You know, if you're building stairs, well, you build them. I got to build this there and then build the next day and build the next there.

Speaker 2: 48:05

You don't just build a million stairs at one time. It doesn't work like this, and so you're going to be that great, even though you built all the stairs.

Speaker 1: 48:10

Sure. Or even if you're, let's just use rock climbing, for example. There's a way, easier one. There's all kinds of different terrain that can happen. Well, a lot of us are climbing out of the pit. A lot of us are climbing out of hell, and we're not climbing up to heaven, we're. We're usually in a deficit and so we have to climb out of hardship. Well, that's a different type of climb. There's not as much weather down there. There's going to be people who pull you down. It's a very different climb.

Speaker 1: 48:35

But climbing up the mountain is different than climbing out of a pit. It's different weather, there's different attributes, there's different things to consider, and so when we're doing these, it's the same principle. It's just going to be done in a different way over and over again. The repetition is there, but you're either trained or untrained. You either know how to do these things or you don't, and then you have to fight it a million times. And that's why I can recognize these judgments and doubts. Oh, you're going to emotionally dump on me your bitch man up like, wow, that's the judgment you threw down. If I share with you, interesting, this also shows you're not safe to share with Good to know. Does it mean that you're wrong for sharing I probably wouldn't go that route but I would say wrong with sharing somebody who judges immediately. What is judgment doing? It seems like authority to seek compliance. You want me to not be a bitch? I'm manning up. Listen, I don't think we're in the same definition again. We're using the words different. Sure, you know, and so even the dogma around religion. People goof it up because they add their opinions.

Speaker 1: 49:34

I'm going to give you some vulnerability for you and this is where I'll start a lot with my guys. This is vulnerability and people don't understand it. This is why men need men. I'm proud of you, bro, and I believe in you, and I think you got everything. It fucking takes man. I'm very, very fucking proud of you. People don't understand that. That's vulnerability, because if you tell me to go fuck myself and I told you I believe in you or I'm proud of you, that does affect the way that I like man. I feel really bad now, cause I just opened up to that guy and told him that I believe in him and he told me to go fucking kick rocks. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 50:13

It still hurts your feelings, and this is why it's tough for men. How many, how many times have you been the first time a guy has heard someone say I believe in you, man, a lot. That's how many dads couldn't do it?

Speaker 2: 50:25

yeah, because it's vulnerability and that takes oh and I yeah I very much agree with that and it's not, it's receiving and giving, whereas so many people think vulnerability is just opening up and allowing in.

Speaker 1: 50:39

No, no, no, yeah, I I'm with you on that for sure now when I tell you I'm proud of you and I'm believe, I believe in you, man, do I look like a bitch? Absolutely not. This is something where guys get goofed up as vulnerable. Start off with doing these kinds of things. Let's open up with each other. Guys need guys.

Speaker 1: 50:56

We can info dump very differently with each other than women can. The reason why is you and I are not our, you're not my safety, security. I don't require you to feel safe and you don't require me to feel safe. This means there's not any loss for us If we info dump on each other. You're like dude, I got to fucking unload and I can have full empathy for you because your weakness is not contingent to my safety and security. If you're having a tough day, I'll be like Chris give me your fucking arm. Dude, I got you broke it up. Yeah, it's tough. Man, my heart's with you on this one.

Speaker 1: 51:28

That's a heavy burden. Give me some of it. I'll carry it with you. I'm not taking sex off the table because you're having a tough day at work. Like we're not doing that. There's no punishment for us. We don't have this.

Speaker 1: 51:40

I don't have to be because I can be empathetic and compassion to my brother who just took a heavy ass hit from life, and I can relate to that. And so it's just your turn, man. And then you'd see me if I get blasted and I'm like dude, I just got smoked, I'm getting sued, I had this thing go wrong, just lost a bunch of money. Life is blasting me right now. My kid just had a difficult thing go on.

Speaker 1: 52:05

Like me, I just had a big a death in the family. Something happened. You're like bro, I'm here with you. Give me your hand. Like you're not alone on this one. I don't have to be like so what are you going to do about it? Like, no, it's going to be like I can be with you in this. Bring me your burden and together we're stronger. Lock shields with me to the face. You know and that's a very different mentality why men need men. Also, if you and your girl are fighting and you can unload with healthy guys, they'll give you perspectives to make a. Did you even consider what she said, dude?

Speaker 2: 52:35

yeah, you're like yeah that, yeah, that's for sure well and that need men, absolutely many.

Speaker 2: 52:41

Well, and it's that is my favorite part of of this work is when guys realize that. I kind of look at it like how, in the grand scheme of things, nobody knows what they're doing. We all just have you know. We project, uh, an air of we know what we're doing, but everyone's scared shitless. We don't know what the hell's going on, we don't know what's going to happen. We're just trying to get through it.

Speaker 2: 53:13

And that moment because I've been involved with a couple different men's groups as well, which started me on that journey of identifying how to actually feel my emotions, versus think and talk about them, and having that awareness that first time that a guy's like oh, you mean, it's not just me and no one in this room is going call me a pussy for for saying what I'm about to say, holy shit, and and like, the relief and you, it's palpable, you can feel it.

Speaker 2: 53:40

The shoulders come down and just like, uh, like, and I've I've seen so many guys cry in that moment for just gratitude, and even if you're just starting from there and knowing that you have at least one other person, if not multiple people, to hold space for your shit and you're not only not going to get judged for it, you're going to get encouragement and support, and no one's there to solve it for you. But having that support, encouragement and space gives you that much more confidence to be able to say, hey, you know what, maybe I can do this. And that is my favorite part about finding your whatever you want to call it. You know your army, your collective, your, your guys.

Speaker 1: 54:41

It's so necessary yeah, this is where I I very much agree and this is why leadership in our area is so important is to be able to show vulnerability in a way that seems confident.

Speaker 2: 54:54

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 54:55

You know, this is where guys goof it up. There's things I can share with my girl at certain times and there's a lot of things I can't, and that's why we can share with each other. I'm like, chris, I'm going to do this thing. Man, I'm really in my own shit and you're not going to be like, well, what am I supposed to do? I guess I have to take care of everything then, because you're just not going to do it and you're like we don't have that.

Speaker 1: 55:19

We don't have this thing that starts to deteriorate safety, security, element of what men bring to a relationship. So the judgments that come into you're being a bitch and man up, even the thing where I'm scared or I'm mad or I'm sad. A lot of times our girls are going to go right into a defense system, and when you talked about um having, what was it? Having a person who can hold space? Well, that means they're going to have to have training too, and so for our ladies, they don't. A lot of them don't have the training for a guy to open up like that. It's not to say like they're good or bad, it's's not judgment, it's just you don't know how to handle a man unloading, you can't and most people aren't qualified to handle unloading. It's too much information and, in general, for sure, yeah, like in general, people aren't trained to handle somebody's all their hurt or their fears or their traumas and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 56:04

You're not trained to deal with that. The average person can't, doesn't know how to respond to you.

Speaker 1: 56:10

Know someone grieving correct you can't even do that, so never mind receiving, all of you know, additional most of what I teach is how to grieve in a healthy way, like that's. The funniest thing is most of it is just do you know how to handle loss? You know well, and the?

Speaker 2: 56:25

assumption that you have to say something, right? I don't know what to say.

Speaker 1: 56:31

Don't say anything, just be here with me, and that's the emotion part. This is where surrender side, this is where it gets into the first off. I'd kill these judgments, like if somebody has an opinion, that's totally fine and they're allowed to have opinions, but being able to let go of the value of somebody's judgment being paramount, you're already creating a belief system that's failed, like it won't work. You can't do it. It won't, it was not possible for you to say I like me when my entire system is built on other people's opinions.

Speaker 1: 57:01

Well, absolutely how do you like you? You don't even know you. Yeah, that too. And then how can I look in the mirror and say I love me when I don't even know me? You have to start with know thyself. You have to get in like who the fuck are you then? And you have a lot of your stuff and then it's not yours, agree? Then you have to learn how to fight those things and break the curses and get rid of the stuff that was put in there to make it, so you can actually look in the mirror and go you're actually fucking awesome dude.

Speaker 2: 57:29

Yeah, agreed I. For clarity, I do want to say, um, I wasn't suggesting that the first thing you do on this journey is to sit, stand in front of the mirror and say I love you.

Speaker 1: 57:40

Chris said you love you immediately. There's no, there's no steps. There are no steps.

Speaker 2: 57:46

It's just you do it, I, I just I wanted to acknowledge that as an example of something very difficult, if you don't know how correct and um, yeah, the. I will say, and and this is tough for me because I feel like I have a very different type of relationship with my wife. What do you mean, um, in the sense of she doesn't say those things to me, she never has. She uh the. You know why don't you man up, or or I don't want to see you cry, or or don't dump that on me, or like.

Speaker 2: 58:22

I see so many examples of that on social media. I've, I've many examples of that on social media. I've, I've watched a lot of your stuff and seen guys talk about that um, and it's not to say I'm a man, she's a woman. We're obviously different. Um, and maybe this is just. You know, we reached a certain place before getting together where we had worked enough on our own stuff that we didn't go through a lot of that, because I like, I hear some of these guys yeah, my, my wife said this to me.

Speaker 1: 58:51

I'm like, really, brutal jesus man some of the things are, say you can't take back some of the things that are said yeah, a thousand percent.

Speaker 2: 58:58

And and I am so unbelievably grateful because of that for the.

Speaker 2: 59:04

We just had a conversation before she left. She took my daughters to a birthday party while while I'm recording Um, and we had a friend going through a divorce right now and her ex messaged her in the middle of, uh, an evening with her girlfriends and it was just, it was obvious he was drunk and he's just, you know, going into a bunch of stuff. She was just sharing it with me and then she's like, babe, I I'm just so grateful that we have the relationship that we do, that we don't have to deal with all of that bullshit, and and I said a thousand percent, and we're kind of going through it right now with um. We're in a big decent transition. My, uh, my newest daughter is almost a year old now, so we've had that first year of parenting again, um, and I just I said to her I would rather be in chaos and have the relationship I have with you than for than to have everything externally be great and have a superficial or a much more challenging relationship, absolutely. No doubt.

Speaker 2: 1:00:13

Um, and and it was a great moment of acknowledgement that every time we get stuck in the external this is a challenge, this is hard we come back to us and it's like, yeah, but we're okay Cause we can do this. Yeah, and that's what I want to help other men have.

Speaker 1: 1:00:29

Well, you have a willingness in your partner that a lot of these people don't have.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

And that, I will say, is unfortunately true, absolutely, it's the willingness, because people have the potential.

Speaker 1: 1:00:40

It's the willingness and a lot of times, uh again, the women are under attack. Today, there's no question, like I do not, I don't say that women have it easy. They're under attack. Social media is destroying them and this you can get Jonathan Haidt You're going to. There's a tons of studies right now. Women, especially middle, middle school up, just getting destroyed by social media. The issues that are going on with women, it's a bike ramp right now, on the numbers, it's wild and so, like, women are under attack. Burden of beauty, burden of performance, everything. They have to be everything. All the time. Their masculinity is getting pushed through the roof and men are getting, you know, pushed out of dynamics. It's life is getting crazy for ladies right now and the fact is is they're going to lose their ass soon. Ladies are going to be fucked soon. I'm calling it Like I'm calling it the direction things are going.

Speaker 1: 1:01:31

You're going to have women who are just. They will never find love. They'll be they'll be completely. Nobody will want them and guys will find alternative and or synthetic ways to be fine.

Speaker 2: 1:01:47

Why do you think that? More specifically, why would they be that way based on how they're encouraged to be from a societal norm perspective?

Speaker 1: 1:01:56

You talking about women or men? Women.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

You just mentioned they would be unlovable. Why is that?

Speaker 1: 1:02:01

Yeah, because they've turned off the parts of them that make them women. Women are taking away the part of them that make them women. Women are taking away the part of them that's them. They're being as inauthentic as possible to be in every way, not what they are, and they're removing nurture, removing empathy, removing compassion, removing all the things that make a woman wonderful. How many look at like? Even in the last handful of years, we have shifted over to where there are now more women alive over 30 without children than under 30 with children. This is the first time in humanity. This is universe 25 stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

Calhoun was documenting this stuff back in the seventies. He's like, as soon as we hit this point, around 8 million people you're going to watch the population have this shift. That'll start going into a spiral where you watch more androgyny shift. That'll start going into a spiral where you watch more androgyny. You watch more isolation. You start seeing more conflict, less need to create or procreate. Things start going the other way very quickly. This has been studied for decades now and so now it's just happening and you're going to watch a lot of isolation from women. Women are already doing the videos where they put all their time into success and their career and their achievement for PhDs and all of these things. And they're like why can't I get a guy? And they think it's us who's failing them, when they've just pushed themselves out of the dating pool and wondering why nobody's finding them.

Speaker 2: 1:03:24

Well, that's interesting to me Because I agree that on you, you know, on any spectrum there's always going to be extremes, for sure, um, and and actually I, I am uh, not intimately aware, but certainly aware of the studies with regard to population and, uh, once it reaches a certain point, and even society once it reaches a certain point, there, even society, once it reaches a certain point, there's this move away from traditional norms and into much more individualism, and then things tend to crash and then get you know revitalize all that recycles back again.

Speaker 2: 1:03:58

Right, and that's yeah, that's been proven throughout history, for sure. Yeah. Um and, and there is no doubt, and I think the biggest difference now is social media. That's the thing. It's just accelerating everything across the board. I mean just, you know, we're more connected than we ever have been and we're more isolated than we ever have been, because it's just, it's the illusion of connection.

Speaker 1: 1:04:24

Remember the way women's DNA is. It's the illusion of connection. Remember the way women's DNA is. The three biggest things I've noticed with women is the first thing you need is reassurance, safety, security elements in all categories emotional, physical, financial. You go down the list. I need to feel safe. I need reassurance that I'm okay. The second thing is approval and acceptance, but mostly from other women.

Speaker 1: 1:04:43

Women get more dolled up for women than for men. I remember you saying that on something else and so that's a real thing. Like I've had women who I would coach them. They're like I'll get to the nines for this group of friends, but, like with my guy, I don't have to dress up like that, but it's like a competition. Now there's always been female competition the whole.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

It takes a village thing. There's always been a pecking order for women. There always has been, and that's not like a new thing. There was always that. The difference is is it used to be community? It used to be like this is like the size of the village or the size of your. You know your immediate, your town or your village or your whatever. Well, that's like a few thousand people at most. It's pretty manageable at that. At that level You're only comparing yourself to a handful of people. Girls now have that burden of comparison that you're not like that girl at a global scale. And it's photoshopped and it's totally goofed up now. And so look how much the push for inauthenticity to be something else that's on women right now to be approved of. And you talked about it before with the judgment thing, with the sin like I will judge you into being what I want you to be Now. Women's second biggest thing is approval and acceptance. Men have it, but we're far more disagreeable than women. They're way more agreeable than us, and I'll even send you studies.

Speaker 2: 1:06:01

No, in general, I I don't disagree with you there, that's a general thing. There are, as always, there are exceptions, but yes, women tend to be much more agreeable than men, for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

Now they want the acceptance of other women. This has been there for always. Because it takes a village was very useful. It's a strategy that worked Well. Now it turns into it's no longer required that way. The jobs now are one button, you know, and so things are very different now than it used to be, and so what it takes for approval and acceptance had become far more superficial, and so people now are augmenting and changing themselves to be something so inauthentic that you may be going on a date with a woman today and she's looking like she's an 11.

Speaker 1: 1:06:42

She's got the big fake eyelashes, her contour is all crazy, her makeup is off the charts. Hair extensions, boobs are all is all crazy. Her makeup is off the charts, hair extensions, boobs are all up and crazy and the waist is super small and the nails are wild and the fucking, the high heels and the you name it. It's to the tens Like this is this what the fuck is this creature?

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

And you get her over augmentation, yeah, and she takes eyelashes off and all the makeup is as a different person takes the hair off and then the boobs are different, and then the waist trainer goes away. And all this Now she's way different body shape and then she's shorter because the heels are gone and the nails aren't. Nothing's real and you're like who the heck was.

Speaker 2: 1:07:20

I just hanging out with Well, and and if, if, that and, and I don't have a ton of. I was never attracted to that, so that's one of those things that just is not a thing for me. But um, the other aspect to that is, you would have to assume if they're going that far physically, then they must be there emotionally and mentally as well. Oh, for sure, so I can certainly understand the um, the influence there of you need to fit this mold and if you don't, you're not worthy.

Speaker 1: 1:07:56

Most of those curses whenever I've helped women beat the curses, especially makeup, is a five layer curse, Like the curses that women have to fight. Almost all of them them especially for self-worth comes from other women now do you feel that men have it a little better? There. Better is not the right word, it's different. We have a very different system. Um, ours is burden of performance, and so ours is capability and competency, and so you better be fucking good, like, like you better be good at shit.

Speaker 1: 1:08:27

And so our stuff is going to be like are you capable, are you useful, are you valuable, you know? And a lot more guys are being raised by women without fathers and they're not pushing into competency and they're going into love me for me which is not working, by the way and so we have a whole new system of guys who are, you know, either falling into the nice guy, please, the matriarch, which is just getting them bulldozed, or they're not playing. 30 of men are no longer seeking to date incels.

Speaker 1: 1:08:59

Yeah, they're like, why would I? They'll just stay home and play video games again.

Speaker 2: 1:09:02

The synthetic well, then there's the question do you feel that's an internal thing for men, or is that? Are you saying that that's because women are a certain way?

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

I think it's. If I have to be very open. You look at how this started to shift over in the 70s to the 80s. It started to shift in to where women now have control, like it's not responsibility, it's power. And once women had more power and men were taken out of homes, once dads were out of homes, you start seeing a shift in children. You start seeing more anger, more resentment, less control, less structure. Things start getting more emotionally chaotic and heck. I mean look at the difference from Woodstock in the 70s and Woodstock in the 90s Not the same game, but what was really the big difference is women had way more power than they did before, and now we've just gone way the other end, where now women have full control on things. And how's it going Of what? Raising children? No of anything.

Speaker 1: 1:10:04

You can do anything. You can be the boss, the CEO. You can control everything. You can be the boss, the CEO, you can control everything. You can do everything any man can do. You can do all of it and now women are trying to do everything Well.

Speaker 2: 1:10:17

I don't think they're built to do everything.

Speaker 1: 1:10:20

Are men to do the heavy lifting in the front? I think that we're meant to do the front end and women are doing both the mothering and all the front end stuff. You're supposed to run the business, be the protector, the provider. You're supposed to be the presider. You're supposed to be the nurture. You're supposed to be the compassion. You're supposed to be the fixer. You're supposed to be everything.

Speaker 2: 1:10:43

Oh yeah, no, no one can be everything, that's and, and I I would agree that partnership is the best system there, but we have boys who are raised without fathers so they don't know how to lead.

Speaker 1: 1:10:55

And then you have women who are trying to teach boys to be more emotional and not being able to compartmentalize in the way that our brotherhood can. They don't do it. They don't have good mentors do you assume?

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

do you assume that's women's fault?

Speaker 1: 1:11:10

it's not fault like they did it on purpose. They just want to have they're. They're not looking to men to lead anymore and once they removed, men need to be leaders. Men stopped leading like it became a problem.

Speaker 2: 1:11:25

You're assuming that that happened before that women said I don't want you to be a leader, so men stopped versus men stopped.

Speaker 1: 1:11:33

And then women said well, I gotta pick up the slack here I think there's a difference where um, it's gonna sound a little, this is gonna maybe sound more misogynist than it means to, but, um, everything in nature checks things. Every alpha in every social community. I don't care if it's chimpanzees or wolves or lemurs, it doesn't matter, you name it, everything has a thing where the alpha will be like back the fuck off a gorilla, it doesn't matter. There's a point where you're like stop or I'll stop you. Every creature in nature does this. As soon as we guys said we're not going to check them anymore, don't hit a girl, don't do those things, as soon as we started pulling back, there were generations of women who were very appreciative. Thank you guys. Thank you for stop hitting women. We very much respect a gentleman. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:12:23

It's called a human.

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

Well, we love that, but no, we that hasn't always been the case. Men were monstrous to women for most of history.

Speaker 2: 1:12:30

Oh, of course, but I'm saying that's, that's not just being.

Speaker 1: 1:12:34

You're not a gentleman because you don't hit a woman, you know well, it's definitely was a big part of it, because you and I in the back in the days we'd 30 style boxing and box for like 20 minutes, bloody each other up and have some beer and go home. But old Sharon can't take a right hook to save her fucking life. She's shit at taking punches. So don't we? We stopped hitting our girls. We decided us men, regulated men. Men go, stop hitting our ladies. Women didn't make us stop. They couldn't if they wanted to. Throughout all history, we're too strong. Women never made you stop physically. Physically, that's what I mean. Who was going to stop them? Yeah, women can't. You can't stop a dude. That's why we don't fight each other. Women won't win, they don't.

Speaker 2: 1:13:19

Physically yes, agreed.

Speaker 1: 1:13:21

That's the problem is, physical strength is not close, it's not even relatively close, and so that's a concerning issue for ladies. They didn't make a stop. Guys made each other stop. That was there was no protest, that men lost, that was we regulated men. So now, when you take checking, hold on?

Speaker 2: 1:13:40

are you assuming there's no influence from women at all in that decision? Well, tell me the enforcement that women would have well, it's not a matter of enforcement, it's a matter of yes, it is.

Speaker 1: 1:13:54

People will go as far as their consequences allow all right, I'll give you that okay, so tell me the enforcement without another man to say I'll fucking get someone to stop you. How does a woman enforce that? If you touch me, I will, and then they're going to do what?

Speaker 2: 1:14:14

Well, no, not in a situational, you know, momentary experience like that. That's again. Physical strength comes into play there for sure, that's a problem I'm talking about as a society deciding to move away from that.

Speaker 1: 1:14:27

Again, that's guys had to regulate guys. There's the only way it worked. That's what happened to be a gentleman, another guy would stop a bad guy.

Speaker 2: 1:14:39

Okay, okay, I'm I'm seeing more of what you're saying now Like that regulation, men, as a collective, decided this is not okay anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:14:47

Correct. We decided you and I were like dude, you come home, you smack your wife, she's out, she's all fucked up, she doesn't take these hits like we do. And I went home and I smacked Andrea and she's nothing, she lost a tooth. I don't like it. It's not that good Like we're going to have to chill this shit out. We don't do that. We don't do that anymore. Hey, frankie, stop hitting your girl. Why should I do that? Because it's fucking stupid. Stop doing it. We all, we decided women didn't make us stop.

Speaker 2: 1:15:14

We decided, as men will regulate each other, we don't do that and I guess I got caught up on I or I got hung up on the fact that you were saying it well, it's just don't do it because they can't take it versus don't do it because it's not OK.

Speaker 1: 1:15:28

Well, either way, both are true. You tell me your wife could take a full right hook from a man. Oh no, no, I'm not Terrible plan, I'm not. It's not a good play. My girl's not tough. No, my girl cannot take those hits.

Speaker 2: 1:15:46

Yeah, I'm not saying from a physical perspective that I am I'm saying from a very physical perspective.

Speaker 1: 1:15:52

We removed the physical check. We're the only creature I can think of in nature that removed physically checking a member of the pack okay, okay, so you're coming at it from a men are the leaders.

Speaker 2: 1:16:05

So we had the authority to hit someone and we chose not to. So we're the benevolent Well in the alpha perspective.

Speaker 1: 1:16:12

All alphas have a consequence for going out of line. Well, sure, and a healthy alpha is not an abuser. A healthy alpha can still regulate in a healthy and safe way, encouraging, nurturing, loving, compassionate. Good alphas build, but there's always the insubordinate teen or the young male who wants to challenge for authority. That needs to go. I got to fuck. You want to fuck around? You find out. You have to still be competent and capable for protection purposes. You still have to do that, and so that's what's so complicated about being an alpha, is you not only have to be mostly nurture, encouragement, building and support, but you also have to be able to fuck something up, like you have to be. Like you, mess around. I will protect my family.

Speaker 2: 1:16:59

Well, and that I'm in agreement with you there as far as being able to hold your own from a protective perspective, right. There's a competition. What, though? Yes, yes able to hold your own from a protective perspective. Right, there's a what, though? Yes, yes, a competency in, but and obviously I would also include mentally and emotionally being able to do those things sure obviously foundationally just uh, the the fact that from a natural perspective or a nature perspective, the need to beat the shit out of someone to protect your family is few and far between.

Speaker 1: 1:17:34

I said. I said not beat the shit out of Fair enough.

Speaker 2: 1:17:38

Because checking is different.

Speaker 1: 1:17:40

Spanking a kid is not the same as punching them into a bloody pulp. It's not the same. Agreed Correction is not the same as abuse.

Speaker 2: 1:17:50

I still am not a believer in physical violence of any form. With regard to I haven't gotten to what you should do.

Speaker 1: 1:17:58

I haven't put a should on the table yet. Okay, I'm simply saying this is what happened. Now, what was the result of what happened? Because I have police officers, I train and most of the domestic abuse calls are women hitting men. We stopped hitting them, which made this. There was a big generation of women that were like we appreciate you, gentlemen, for being gentlemen. Thank you. We have a new generation of women who were not around for the days that those were earned and they weren't there for the women who actually fought for feminism. That was healthy. They weren't there for the we actually want rights too. They weren't there for the equal fights. They're there for now the privilege fights. I have more, and now they think the reason men don't hit women is because they're better.

Speaker 2: 1:18:51

And are you assuming this is a general thing across the board? It's very generalized.

Speaker 1: 1:18:55

Well, you got to remember. You're stuck in most likely, the 20% women's area. Your woman is most likely not at bottom 80%. She's not doing any of the behavior because you're also not 20 years old and stuck in the algorithm since you were born. There were smartphones?

Speaker 2: 1:19:10

Well, sure, there is that I did want to ask you, before we get too far away from it, um, the alpha that you mentioned, especially in nature. Uh, just to get some clarity on what you were talking about. Number one, because everyone, obviously there are, except, as I've always said, on what you were talking about. Number one, because, everyone, obviously there are exceptions, as I've always said, there are exceptions From the alpha perspective. Is this the assumed natural tendency or the idea of the natural tendency that men are supposed to be the alpha, they're supposed to be leading, um, and women just aren't suited for it?

Speaker 1: 1:19:55

yes or okay yes, I strong yes, and I'll explain. Strong, yes, we compartmentalize in a very different way. We also don't mix everything up in one emotional ball of yarn where everything is one giant pile, and so who gets overwhelmed? Generally more likely women or men, when they have to take all these things on. Well, men can compartmentalize in a very different way and work on things in a way that we don't have. We can still be far more clutch in a crisis.

Speaker 1: 1:20:23

This is also stuff that women have been writing, especially women in the military. Like they've been writing. Like there was a Katie Palomino. They had to erase the shit out of her. She became a captain in the military. She was one of the Marines that were part of the first hundred women in the Marines. She was ranked number four in badassery. She was no slouch when it came to women. She was tough. She's a tough chick Right, and she was on the moon, on the, on the news and she was talking with the newscaster and she's like girl power, right.

Speaker 1: 1:20:50

And she's like don't you, girl, power me? She's like no, no, no, I've really done it. I've gone to front lines, I've gone and done the shit. I've done it. Don't you, girl, power me? She's like I might have been number four with the ladies.

Speaker 1: 1:21:02

I couldn't keep up with the slowest guy. She's like my bones are now deteriorated from the waist from the weight that we had to carry from the packs. My body has um gone into a. I can't have children now. My body has rejected being able to have children because of the stress I've been under Um. I was in combat twice, in both times a liability Uh, I panicked and fell apart and they had to pull me out. Like. We are not built for these things. Men compartmentalize very differently in crisis than women do. Unless women are shifting into their masculine, which they're trying to take on male roles. They're not built to compartmentalize the way guys are. They're not. They overload way faster than we do. We're meant to take on the heavy lifting, the hard things and the logical perspectives to make it so. It's the well-being of a pack.

Speaker 1: 1:21:54

Let's also go into the empathy element. Do you care about the emotions of your wife and your children? Yeah, most women lack empathy for their man. Empathy is not the same as well-being. You're an emotional coach, so you know the difference. Of Empathy is not the same as well-being. You're an emotional coach, so you know the difference of your feelings is not the same as you had food. Your feelings is not the same as I folded towels. Your feelings is not the same as I put your shoes by the door. For you, those are actions or tasks, but not one of those is an emotion, so people will try and lean into.

Speaker 1: 1:22:25

Well-being is the same as empathy, but when a man does go and open up, he's a bitch man up, or you're being a pussy or a coward, or I can't follow you. There's no empathy for men from women. Are women really supposed to be the leader if they lack empathy for a member of their pack? Well, certainly not in that case, in which case this is the majority. So in our systems, you and I are not in the majority. We can agree on that right. The way of my wife is the way your wife is. We're not, in the main, the main algorithm, we're in the small end, given all of these things you're discussing.

Speaker 2: 1:23:05

No, now.

Speaker 1: 1:23:05

This is the 80 under. If you're in the 20 and over, if you find this conversation highly unrelatable, you may be in the 20. Thank you, jesus, you did it. You're in the, you're in the, you've done enough self-work that your awareness is high enough. But if you look at the big number, the big numbers and you can look at the numbers coming out like crazy, follow Jonathan Haidt. He's deep in shit on this stuff, like he's like what's going on, like he's watching. There's a lot happening right now to show Like.

Speaker 1: 1:23:37

I don't think women are built to lead. I don't think they are. I think men are supposed to do it and guys are getting pushed more into being feminine and women are being pushed more into being masculine. And until and with women shut down what they're built for, that compassion, the nurture, the fun, the playfulness, the spontaneity, the excitement, the, the love, the, the, the lowest lane. When they come home, and not kryptonite, like when you get that like that man, women feel so fulfilled, they feel so good.

Speaker 1: 1:24:06

Does that mean they could never have a job? I didn't say that. No, I just said they're able to be in their nurture, they're able to feel safe and secure, they're good because their guy has taken on the heavy, nasty shit, so they can be cool with being like the mother, the wife, the nurture, the love. They can do that. And that feels so much more authentic whenever I work with women than it is that they have to be the boss, they have to be the alpha. They just don't do it. Not to mention, the base in their voice doesn't work the same as ours. You already know, when you're talking to the kid and you go, hey, are you sure you want to do that? They're like, ah, son of a bitch, mom's gonna be right now put that down the other factor there, uh, just slight tangent.

Speaker 2: 1:24:53

Uh, and I I have to acknowledge the I don't remember the study, but there was an acknowledgement of um, men that had high voices have a harder time um comforting their infants because they're not, they don't, they don't receive that resounding low base kind of echo from from their chest. And and uh, I always, as a psychologist, I was talking to you and she was like I don't have the heart to tell some of my clients that it's because they have a higher voice. It's true, um, we actually from.

Speaker 1: 1:25:29

We've done voice training with some of our guys. With that, we're like I need you to drop some octaves, drop, drop it, like I need you to speak from your stomach yeah, like your diaphragm and lower the octave, like pull it down. Like talk calmly, talk smoothly, but throw a couple octaves down and people will listen. You know there's some great examples of it, but I'm just saying, like you can hear, you and I, if we dropped out a couple dot, a couple octaves and go, chris, I'm telling you seriously oh, yeah, you immediately.

Speaker 1: 1:25:58

Oh, okay, he's serious, what is it you know like, yeah, yeah, you lean in, yeah I was like, hey, I got something to tell you, buddy, it's listen, everybody, listen to me. You to be like this guy's hard to listen to. He's in falsetto the whole fucking time.

Speaker 2: 1:26:11

Well, and he's probably a little manic because he's not common and grounded. So I totally get that and I'm, I'm not. I'm, I'm certainly acknowledging the biological differences. I mean, come on, you can't not. They're glaring. The place that I have an issue is when biological differences are equated with societal norms and traditional roles and assumed.

Speaker 1: 1:26:38

I want your example so I can understand.

Speaker 2: 1:26:41

Well, take just the classic ones, right, the man goes out and works and the mother stays home and the woman stays home and takes care of the kids in the house. Um, is that how it's supposed to be granted? Back in the day, the reason it changed, uh, was agriculture, right, so as, as society grew and more work was required outside, that was just naturally how it was. Because the woman had a baby physically couldn't go outside and work because she just had a kid, so the man's going to go do it so, and um, the natural evolution of that societal norm. I totally understand where that comes from. Um, as societies grow and as things change, there is more opportunity with modern technology and you know, certainly, uh, to kind of expand the possibility of roles, uh, or or even just taking certain actions.

Speaker 2: 1:27:42

I know plenty of, uh, plenty of households where the woman is a disciplinarian, for whatever reason. Either the guy's not around all that much or they just have a different dynamic. I myself, we have this because I'm staying at home most of the time, and I didn't even get into that yet. But just quick, I love the fact that I've had both sides of it. I've been the sole breadwinner, we've also had a dual income and I've been the stay-at-home parent. I've experienced all of it. So I really am grateful for that experience because I can see one is not better than the other. It's just different. You have different stresses when you're outside the home than when you are in it.

Speaker 2: 1:28:27

But I digress the need, like I want to go and do this thing. Sorry, you can't. You're a man, you have to do this. Or sorry, you can't, you're a woman, you have to do this. That's the problem that I have, where you're forced into this box because of your gender or your sex versus hey, um, what works best for, if we're going with the analogy, what works best for the pack? What works best for the clan? I have these strengths, you have those strengths. Let's collaborate and make sure that we're hitting all the. You know we're checking all the boxes. Um, instead of well, I'm not good at this, but I'm the guy, so I'm supposed to do that. So I'm going to force myself into something that's not good for me.

Speaker 1: 1:29:10

That's what you're talking about. You're talking about unhealthy polarization and you're you're very, very correct. When you watch people especially we've had polarization coaches that'll come on and talk about masculine or feminine energy stuff and you can tell they learn from somebody else who actually knows what they're talking about, because you don't, you know, you've seen it where you're like you're trying to relay this, but you don't. You've never really done it.

Speaker 1: 1:29:33

You're starting to see when people do a very disingenuous version of it. This is where, like you know, I'm very happy with the ideas of challenging like well, is there a healthy way to do this or have you really done it? I have five females in this house. I have five girls. I have three teenage daughters uh, her cousin brittany lives here. She's in her 20s and then I got my girl and I got five females. I'm the only male in the house, except for my dogs. Like there is, there is no backup coming. It's just me and there is no question in this place on the alpha. But I am just. I am fair. I am very close with all the girls um, our daughters coming to me, stepdaughters, by the way, I didn't make any of them, I'm raising them so I also have that uphill battle.

Speaker 1: 1:30:13

I'm a stepdad and I'm very close with these girls. They'll come in, they'll spend time in my office and they share the stuff with me. They also know I'm the least likely to lose my fucking mind on stuff like because they're teenagers, they're supposed to do dumb, dumb things. That teenagers they're supposed to do dumb, dumb things, that's what we're supposed to do as teenagers. I know which ones are drinking.

Speaker 1: 1:30:31

I know which ones are sexually active. I know which ones are in bully circles. I know what's going on, I'm aware, but I also don't blame, shame and judge them for being in the growth period where you have to fail forward. So I give them guidance and understanding and I show them the best ways to do it. We've had one of them in an abusive relationship and I'm like pay attention to these things and as soon as she had training, she's like Ooh, I'm out. We've had one who's had a. She was in a circle with some very toxic friends and got into um cutting and getting into self harm. Oh shit, those things are there too. Well, she spent a month with me because I'm like I got to get your mindset right out of this and she doesn't have any of those anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:31:09

We've had to go through difficult things with these girls but I am solid and strong every time for them. I have never had to hit them. I don't have to hit anybody in here because just the idea of you have to deal with Rick is enough. Idea of you have to deal with Rick is enough. You don't. I've never had to hit any of them Never. Because if you want to come in and you want to challenge for authority, please do. You're welcome to Um and they're like. This isn't working in any capacity for me because.

Speaker 1: 1:31:42

I see that I bring safety, security, stability, reason. I bring all the things that they need so they can be wild. They're they're the chaos. Their emotions are over the place. I bring all the things that they need so they can be wild. They're the chaos. Their emotions are all over the place. I know period week. They're synced the fuck up. I know period week, bro.

Speaker 2: 1:31:58

Yeah, I'm going to be hitting that with Mike, because I have two daughters, so I'm the only male in my house too.

Speaker 1: 1:32:04

Yeah, we can relate, so there's an energy that I bring, though. That used to be nice. I grew up in inner city, detroit. I grew I spoke spartan dude. I did not grow up in healthy upbringing. I did not have a nice place to grow up. It was hostile as fuck. I was a maniac like. I grew up and did nutty shit. It was was Detroit. Nobody's been to Detroit and been like what a lovely place.

Speaker 2: 1:32:30

Like. Nobody has been like this.

Speaker 1: 1:32:32

Everyone's mean. They're like that's just how we talk. I spoke Spartan in here. I had to learn a new dialect in here because the way that I would naturally speak was too aggressive. And you can. You can see, even when I get into my, my modes, you're like man. He can, he goes hard Like I can. I have an energy that's strong, but that also is part of like. If you have a lion in the house, that's also your protector. So I can be soft and kind and compassionate and nurturing and sweet and empathetic to these girls. But you fuck around, you will find out and this is one of those things that they know the energy and that brings them enough safety that they can be a little wild, they can be the chaos, they can be messy, they can do their thing and that's part of what's made them feel safer and secure to share with me. But I haven't had to beat the shit out of them ever. That's never even been on the table.

Speaker 2: 1:33:24

I never had to yeah, and I would you say, just as a follow-up to the fact that you said it that way, would you would you have if you felt it was?

Speaker 1: 1:33:36

there. If there was a need for correction, I would, and this would be like, if one of them wanted to start hitting mom, okay, I would snatch you the fuck up. Like nope, like there are certain things. If one of them wants to start swinging on mom, I'll, I'll have you locked up quick. I'm also a trained fighter, so I don't have to start swinging on the daughter. I would just I'd have her, I'd have her tied up in a set oh, okay, I see what you're saying, yeah, so I'm sort of she, she'd be, she'd be gagging for air.

Speaker 1: 1:34:05

I'd be like don't grab your mother like this ever.

Speaker 2: 1:34:07

Well sure, yeah, and see that, though to me is very different. That's a check though. Than hitting for, and that I would acknowledge that. Yeah, especially, it's the difference and you're calling it a check and I get what you're saying now it's the difference between taking something out on someone and correctly stopping them from harming someone, correct? I understand that for sure. Yeah, so that would be, the difference.

Speaker 2: 1:34:33

Yeah, okay, I get you there my issue. Because I grew up with corporal punishment. I got belts across the legs and the back and spanking and all oh, did you get the metal ring one?

Speaker 1: 1:34:46

That was my favorite fucking belt, that motherfucker. Oh did you. Did you get the metal ring one?

Speaker 2: 1:34:48

That was my favorite fucking belt, that motherfucker. Oh oh yeah. I mean not, it was never purposely like that. It wasn't taking the other end and hitting me with the buckle, it was most often the folded belt with the. You know if I wasn't going to sleep. You're missing out, man.

Speaker 1: 1:35:02

You're missing out.

Speaker 2: 1:35:04

Yeah, man, that buckle just adds something to it, doesn't it? Uh, jesus, uh, uh, no, but it was. It's not to say that I don't think physical confrontation, any type of violence or, um, physically hitting someone is never called for. Of course that's stupid.

Speaker 1: 1:35:29

Sometimes it's very necessary.

Speaker 2: 1:35:34

What with regard to discipline?

Speaker 1: 1:35:36

Well, not necessarily discipline, but with regard to safety and security, if somebody comes, and grabs your kid, I'll fuck you right up A thousand percent. And there are certain people that you can ask them nicely 10,000 times to please stop being so aggressive or assaultive or in being like trying to do mean things to others.

Speaker 2: 1:35:55

Bullies don't stop because you're kind, no, but they stop when you, when you bop them in the nose, real solid well, sure, and that, I would say, is an exception to that, uh, not necessarily the rule, but that's when it is called for. I completely agree. My issue is I don't know how to regulate myself, so I'm gonna hit you because I don't know what else to do.

Speaker 1: 1:36:17

True, that's my issue now who's doing that more today? And that's where I said my police officers are like my police officers like do? The majority of the calls are women are abusing men more and men don't press charges. Well, and they're. It's shameful for a man to say my woman beats me up I was just going to say.

Speaker 2: 1:36:39

that brings up the other issue of going back to judgments where judging, I don't want other guys to know that I can't handle being hit by or that I'm being abused, what like. How do I even say that? Right, so I? I totally get that.

Speaker 1: 1:36:53

But how emasculated is that leader when he can't check his girl and she can hit it? These girls are hitting with weapons and frying pans and all kinds of shit. Like these are not soft hits I've had. I had a guy right in the front of my building. I was letting my dogs out, the car stops. This guy's like six four. He's a big dude and the girl's just hitting him with all kinds of stuff. He's just like stop doing it. Like this guy could have laid her out and she's just hitting him with anything that she can get her hands on and the cops come in. I'm like watch the whole damn thing. Again, this is a guy who's fully capable to check this and won't. So what does that do to a guy who is capable of doing what is right but feels like his hands are tied to do it?

Speaker 2: 1:37:37

well, see and that's very interesting that you say it like that, because I I wouldn't because you said what is right, so what? What? What would you assume is right? The ability to check.

Speaker 1: 1:37:49

Let's remove male and female and go equal. If person a is hurting person B and person B can stop person A, should person B stop them.

Speaker 2: 1:38:04

Yes, that would be, that's a very general question too.

Speaker 1: 1:38:07

No, that's the whole thing is. Simplicity is really where it comes down to. We complicate the fuck out of it. If one person is hitting another person and that person can protect themselves by stopping the other person from hitting them, should they stop them?

Speaker 2: 1:38:21

yes, well, that seems pretty simple. How? How are they stopping them?

Speaker 1: 1:38:26

however, they stop them. That person's assaulting you, sure. So then we have to like. Well, I get to tell you how much you're allowed. If somebody wants to throw fists, they set the stage.

Speaker 2: 1:38:40

Are you assuming that leaving the situation is not an option or that it would be?

Speaker 1: 1:38:45

He jumped out of his own car he was driving because she was hitting him while driving and then said get out of my car and she got out and started hitting him with items from the car. Got it.

Speaker 2: 1:38:56

Yeah, do I think it was appropriate to? I like punch her. I mean that's Unless you're literally scared for your life. I'm not saying there aren't uh situations where that you need to protect your stuff. I'm not denying that at all.

Speaker 1: 1:39:12

and this again also, this lady was bananas crazy. I believe, and this is my belief. I think that all people, all creatures, everything goes as far as the consequences allow. This is why guys are in such a weird spot. They can't hit people because they go to jail, because they'll be the first ones getting thrown out, and they can't be mean because then they're toxic masculinity. Guys have no win, like there's no way to do it. So the only win is leave. That's the only win we got. The only thing that we can do is create autonomy and say I will remove being with me if you don't stop. You can't beat anybody up. The verbal abuse doesn't work. None of that stuff is going to work. It doesn't work. So how do you stop somebody who has no consequences?

Speaker 2: 1:39:58

In the moment is different than Period Period.

Speaker 1: 1:40:01

How do you stop somebody from doing things who have no consequences?

Speaker 1: 1:40:09

Excuse me it would certainly be difficult. I haven't figured it out either. If there are no consequences for somebody, even if it was just guy to guy, let's just say because you're taller than me, I can do whatever I want to you and you can't fight back, because the rule is you're taller and if you're taller you cannot defend yourself and I can just knock your drink out of your hand and put my middle finger on your wife's face and tell you guys to go all fuck yourselves and I can do anything I want and you can't do shit. You'll go to jail because it's illegal for you to touch me. You'll be in trouble and if you say something, you'll be judged and shunned and you'll be the bad guy for even saying it.

Speaker 2: 1:40:56

Because you're taller, you judged and shunned and and you'll be the bad guy for even saying because you're taller, you should know better, so I can do anything that I want to, to you and you can't do shit.

Speaker 1: 1:41:10

What are you gonna do? So you're saying that you can't hit me are you saying you can't yell at me? No, no, I know. Are you saying that?

Speaker 2: 1:41:14

that the majority, because you were saying 80 20, are you saying the majority of women in the 80 percent?

Speaker 1: 1:41:22

are taking advantage of that or what do you mean? I do believe there's a massive take advantage of it. Yes, there's an entitlement. Now that's happening. That's very different. But I'm getting into like how do you regulate this, though? How do how are you supposed to tell somebody who has no consequences for no matter how radical their behavior is, that there's like you're.

Speaker 2: 1:41:44

You gotta stop and obviously that's extremely tough the the impossible.

Speaker 1: 1:41:51

So guys are going, I'm just not gonna play, I'm not very, I'm not red pill, I'm not that guy, I'm not going pill, I'm not that guy, I'm not going into like there's no hope. Your, your wife, and you, my wife and my, we are building hope. There are communities that are going back to like we gotta be traditional as far as how we treat each other. We have respect, we have honor, we have dignity, appreciation, we have those things Okay, okay, okay, so I, I get, I get.

Speaker 2: 1:42:13

Now we're all right. So let me, let me lay this out to make sure that I understand what you're saying. Okay, from a traditional perspective, because people knew their roles, there was embedded within those roles and the relationship between them, respect, acknowledgement, cause you knew if you did this, you would have this consequence. If I did this, I would have this consequence. If I did this, I would have this consequence.

Speaker 1: 1:42:39

But because there are we removed consequence, there's still max consequences on men, almost no consequence for women. Well, now what?

Speaker 2: 1:42:53

well, and see, that is tough for me too, because I just view the entire, all of all of the interactions back and forth as just unhealthy and, and I know- when you're in that situation, it doesn't help to say, hey, we need to work on this shit because you have to deal with the situation.

Speaker 1: 1:43:13

Both sides are fucking up. I'm not. I'm not saying listen, just so you know. I'm not saying men are everything good and women are everything bad. I'm not saying listen, just so you know. I'm not saying men are everything good and women are everything bad. I'm just saying we have this piece here where women don't have consequence and men have to be maximum consequence. How's it working?

Speaker 2: 1:43:28

Yeah, and I will certainly acknowledge that, if you're looking at it from that perspective, of course it's a very difficult situation for men in that position.

Speaker 1: 1:43:37

So then I need your help. How do guys create a healthy regulation of that system? This is where people are stuck right now. We went too far this way and these young ladies are really struggling with authority and they're starting to realize it's not working, like it's falling apart on itself, it's going to eat itself. When I say ladies, lose on this one there are also the young men. To the young men not our age, young men are just resentful and bitter. I've got teenage daughters. Do you know? These guys don't ask girls out on dances and stuff anymore. Yeah, they, they stopped trying. They don't try, they don't.

Speaker 2: 1:44:20

They're not playing anymore well, another big part of that, though, and I do know this. Again, going back to social media, right, because we don't that. Uh, gen z, it's the first generation, as you were saying earlier. It's the first generation that grew up on iPhones. Millennials had flip phones, but it wasn't the same thing. You're not? You know, yeah, cell phones and all that.

Speaker 1: 1:44:42

We had dial-up at the time that it would be impactful. We couldn't really use it right.

Speaker 2: 1:44:47

And I come from that last generation. I grew up with a rotary phone, so I had that, you know, and then when I went to college, we had home computers and the internet. So, um, the the aspect of social media that creates the disconnect where no one even when you're hanging out with friends, you're doing this, it's like everyone, everyone's sitting on the couch watching a movie on their phone. So I fully, I fully acknowledge that the foundational issue is that and what we're talking, or what you're talking about, with regard to, um, women having no consequences, a symptom or a result of that. I certainly acknowledge the challenge there, especially, um, in the kind of masses of people that that are not even close to doing any of this work that we're talking.

Speaker 2: 1:45:40

Um, I will say, from my advice to someone in that situation, again, it is number one, having having defensive experience, like you said, you're not punching him in the face, but you're grabbing a wrist and turning it down and saying stop, stop. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially if your personal safety is at risk. That's you just protecting yourself. That that's you just protecting yourself. I had heard about the stat you mentioned with your cop friends that the the number of domestic abuse calls have skyrocketed for women versus men. Obviously that's not saying that that men still don't do it plenty of times, but yes, there's still a bunch of assholes out there.

Speaker 2: 1:46:37

I'm just saying, yeah, the women's thing has changed dramatically within our lifetime well and um, the idea of and I'm going to circle back to the, to the alpha acknowledgement, because we never finished that part of it either but, um, I certainly, I certainly know, like any change, any major change in a society we've we've seen it every decade I've been alive certainly where something changes and the pendulum goes way over here because, yeah, we can do it now, and then every everyone's doing it and it's like, oh well, we need this and we need that because we want to have all the things we've never had or never experienced all right now. And that's just not feasible. It it fucks up the system, right. So, um, that aspect of it, unfortunately it just we just have to wait for enough time to go by for the pendulum to come back to center, um, so, short of that, my big thing. I'll give a real life example.

Speaker 2: 1:47:43

I'm working with a guy who's divorced and he's trying to figure out his situation with how much input he still has because the kids are still with her. He takes them on occasion, occasion, but they're primarily there with her. So how much influence over her behavior slap as it associates with the kids because they're not together anymore. It's none of my business what you're doing. It's none of your business what I'm doing, except when it comes with the kids. So he's had a lot of those situations where she'll just come down on him and the way I've been working with him there is because he, he, he bottles it, bottles it, bottles it and then explodes so and again.

Speaker 2: 1:48:31

Obviously this is a long game, not in the moment situation. In the moment situation, I would totally advocate for protecting yourself, short of punching somebody. You gotta, you gotta do a grapple to to get them to stop. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, um, but moving to focusing as much on yourself as possible to get to that level of emotional regulation, um, awareness, uh, psychological awareness of okay, I see what she's doing, she's trying to trigger me so that I do this, so she can then do this.

Speaker 1: 1:49:08

I still think the solution is internal and that one is because you're being triggered and so you need to have a new armor. Then that's where guys I'm watching guys using armor that they built when they were like eight years old. So it's like cast iron skillets and, like you know, pieces of like driftwood, and I'm like this is not the correct fitting armor. We need some Iron man nanotech here, like you're using the wrong armor for your fighting style. So this is just again what would be the thing that's getting them triggered. There's some unmet need or there's some injustice, or there's something happening that they're losing or something's being taken, something to trigger anger or trigger into some sort of defensive response. There's a loss system that's getting triggered. There's something's happening in your cycle, and so this is where you're watching the behavior. I'm with you Get better armor. You want to judge me? Get better armor. You want to judge me, get better armor.

Speaker 1: 1:50:01

Okay, say whatever you want. I'm not going to let you get me because now my armor is up, dink, I'm blocking that one. Yeah, she's going to say you're just a loser piece of shit. You big dink Loser piece of shit doesn't hurt my feelings because I know myself, but I can see your intention is to do harm, in which case just about anything that you're going to say is going to be compartmentalized. I cannot let you in. I have to block the attacks. You're going to say mean things because your intent is to do harm. Your intention isn't for us to understand each other. Your intention is to judge me, to control me so that I become compliant, and I will defy that. But I can defy that in a stoic ass way yes, and true stoicism, not superficial stoicism correct, not fake it till you make it, but true understanding of that happened.

Speaker 2: 1:50:51

That's something I've dealt with ongoing, as well as guys that think they know what stoicism is and they don't that's when you're talking about the uh.

Speaker 1: 1:50:57

They get diagnosed as bipolar disorder, where they uh, they, they suppress until they express that either goes into depression or rage.

Speaker 2: 1:51:07

That's where it gets pushed down, pushed down, pushed down, pushed down volcano explode yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, and that's that's way more common with men than it is with women. It's not to say women don't do that, though.

Speaker 1: 1:51:16

No, no, no. Women are more in their masculine, so they're doing it more and more today than ever.

Speaker 2: 1:51:22

Well, and the masculine, feminine thing too, and I'll get back to the alpha thing eventually, I guess Um, but um, um, I feel that where I'm coming from with, with anything that I'm doing, not only for myself, but with the people I work with, is I don't think women should become more masculine. I don't think men should become more feminine in the sense that they should not be masculine. I'm looking at it more as men need to embrace their feminine and women need to embrace their masculine as it serves them and benefits them as whole people. So the fear or the you know I'm not going to do that, because so much of being a man tends to come from the negative, and what I mean by that is what's being a man? Well, it's not being a woman.

Speaker 2: 1:52:21

So you're negatively defining who you are instead of positively defining who you are, and that then you're constantly backing up Well, I don't want to be that, I don't want to be that, I don't want to be, and you're moving away from stuff instead of towards something. And I think that is the issue with because for so long, men just oh well, I'm just the boss. Because I'm a man, I don't have to work for anything, I don't have to build my own confidence and demand the respect of others by my actions and and um um example and modeling. I just have it. So now that we don't have it it anymore, so many men don't know what the fuck to do correct because they don't have.

Speaker 1: 1:53:03

They've never built those skills you're right, you're very I I very much agree with you with what you said and I like the way you I look at his trained or untrained for like are you trained to use it when you need it and not when you like? Because, again, but you can still do those traits in an authentic way. I can be very warm and nurturing and kind and cool and still have a high level of badassery about me, absolutely. And women can still be like compartmentalizing, handle their business and get their shit together without having to be bad bitches or boss babes. You can still be the kind, sweet, nurturing leader or boss babes. You can still be the kind, sweet, nurturing leader. Like they have elements, especially in their work, where they have to lean into their masculine energy. They're there I'm a workhorse Like they lean into that stuff, fine, but they don't have to sacrifice their kindness to be able to.

Speaker 1: 1:53:52

This is where I see like the extremes start going that direction.

Speaker 2: 1:53:56

No, and I understand that certainly, and I will always acknowledge the extremes, because they tend to be. It's like the squeaky wheel against the oil right it's always the loudest, so so many people assume that's how it is for everybody, because oh, look at this crazy woman doing this stuff. Yeah, but that's not every, not everybody. Yeah, right, so that's the part that bothers me, that people like especially, as you said, the polarity coaches.

Speaker 2: 1:54:17

I can't tell you that and I haven't engaged with them directly and not to say that they're all like this but so many of them, you like it.

Speaker 2: 1:54:24

It's silly yeah, it's, it's ridiculous. So, um, my, my foundational goal with everything that I'm doing, not only for myself but for anyone I work with, is cutting out the tradition for tradition's sake and looking at who you want to be, what lights you up, what strengths you have, what weaknesses you have, so that you can work on your weaknesses, project your strengths and collaborate with someone else in a relationship to have the best life you possibly can. And and I'm doing my best to use my experience and my relationship as an example and a model to not only my kids but the people that I work with to say, hey, this is how it can be and that, again, that just intrinsic. Oh well, I'm a man, so this is just what I get.

Speaker 2: 1:55:23

No, it's not. You have to earn it, yes, and you have to earn it in the eyes of your partner as well. You don't just get to be the leader. And also, I don't think men, I guess that's what it. That's where I'm coming from. That is the assumption that because I'm a man, I'm a leader. No, you're not. That's my issue when people say, well, men are the leaders? Nope, they're not Correct. They have traditionally been in charge.

Speaker 1: 1:55:53

Because they've had to learn to be good at what they do.

Speaker 2: 1:55:56

Sure, they had to earn it they had to do hard things. They've had to learn to be good at what they do, sure.

Speaker 1: 1:55:58

And earn it. They had to do hard things. They've had to take on the heavy lifting, they've had to do the dangerous work.

Speaker 2: 1:56:05

Yes, yes and and I do acknowledge, certainly, like you went back to that, um, the woman, the, uh, the, was it the Marines or the army, or it? Was Marines. Yeah, or it was marines. Yeah, marines, she was a captain um, and well and and um, oh can I think of her name now um, one of the most famous women tennis players um, or the williams.

Speaker 1: 1:56:29

Are you talking?

Speaker 2: 1:56:29

yes, the williams uh, uh, I think it was serena. Okay, who said admitted that I, I or someone said she's the best.

Speaker 1: 1:56:42

It was McEnroe. Yes, mcenroe, thank you, mcenroe.

Speaker 2: 1:56:46

He said she is the best female tennis player in the world and everyone's like well, you're going to apologize for saying that she's the best in the world. You mean the best player ever, and she herself said no, if I played this. You know, men serve much faster and harder, and these are the reasons why I just I wouldn't be the best.

Speaker 1: 1:57:04

Yeah, she wasn't able to beat like, I think, in the top 200 of men, like when they were looking at the numbers, like she would have been. Like she was struggling to beat like number 220 or something like that. Like got it.

Speaker 2: 1:57:17

Like I think mackinrow said 700.

Speaker 1: 1:57:19

That was obviously he knows his tenants far better I was just saying so but she wouldn't be in the top percent.

Speaker 2: 1:57:25

For guys it's not even close no, and I certainly acknowledge that, and I think the biggest issue that I'm having with conversations around this stuff is the insecure need that so many men have to reclaim that just standard of well, I just, I just want this now because this is changing and that's uncomfortable for me. Yes, right, so, uh, I think that that, think that that traditional and beneficial feminism, because I certainly acknowledge the extremes and the parts of feminism that have gone off the rails, for sure, but the benefit to that was, hey, we're just looking for this and you're constantly pushing us down and we are more than that, and screw you for trying to stifle us.

Speaker 1: 1:58:24

Um, it's the it's when the pendulum goes too far anybody who? Ever felt oppressed goes the other direction. All the groups, absolutely absolutely and and again.

Speaker 2: 1:58:35

We, you know, said that earlier. It's just, it's the nature of when, when the pressure of, of the repression is released, it just there's going to wait for the expression will happen.

Speaker 1: 1:58:48

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Okay, I like that. You said tradition for tradition's sake. This is all control.

Speaker 1: 1:58:58

But you're talking about these young men who don't have fathers in the home, who aren't leading, and they want instant gratification, leadership. You're right. That's bullshit, boy. You don't get to just win because you said so, like you still got to compete, you still got to play. You can't just go like I'm the man I win, like why you should never ask why, if you can't answer why you're not a leader Like you should, why is a good question for you? Well, why should you leave? Well, because this is the benefits of me. I do this, this, this, this, this. I make sure you have this, I make sure this is happening. I got the, I got your back for this and this is working. For, too, that's why I should be calling the shots. If you can't fucking say it just because I said so, we don't got shit right now. The only thing that we can flex is autonomy. We can't flex our muscles. We can't flex being loud and aggressive. We can't flex that shit. It's not working. It's not a rictatorship in this house. No.

Speaker 1: 1:59:56

I leave, because this is the best way to be able to take care of you. You're all safer if you follow me. Challenge that, though. All of us leaders, every man. We deserve and need to be challenged for why we lead. Because it shows safety, security and competency. For why should I listen to you if you don't have a good reason? It does open up the window for doubt sure and I I think the maybe

Speaker 2: 2:00:32

the difference there for me is like, say, say, take my, my children, um, when I grew up, I still had that, that view of my parents as they're not people. They're my parents, right, right. I didn't see them as people until I was in my mid twenties, because everything was always hidden it's. We're not going to talk about that in front of the kids, we're not going to do this stuff, you know so it's. So when something was wrong, it was like whoa what? I? I thought everything was good, I thought you had it handled. I have to figure this out for myself now. I I never learned that, holy shit, I don't know what was in it done, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so. Um, I think the biggest issue with with um conversations, um conversations like this, that that gets skewed, is again that that extreme mentality where um like you preface something with this may sound a little Misogynistic.

Speaker 1: 2:01:29

Misogynistic.

Speaker 2: 2:01:30

Um.

Speaker 1: 2:01:31

I understand if, out of context, this is going to be ridiculous.

Speaker 2: 2:01:34

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:01:34

If someone takes a clip of that, they're going gonna be like, yeah, screw you I hope they do, because that'll get a lot of people pay attention to the rest of the conversation no, all right, yeah see, sensationalism right, um, but it's there, isn't enough.

Speaker 2: 2:01:51

Again, going back to the the hey, I'm a guy and I can listen to you and not jump down your throat about it or judge you for it, because I'm just holding space for what you're giving me and I can give you feedback or not, but you're getting it out. So the assumption, the biggest issue that I see across social media certainly, but in just life is you said this thing that bucks the current of my belief. So you're this label, now judgment right Versus my, and I still struggle with this to this day. I just had an issue with it yesterday, my. My solution to any of this is get curious, and I think that's that's straight across the board, especially internally and extra externally.

Speaker 1: 2:02:41

Why did you say that? That sounds awesome? What's the struggle Me? Yeah, you just said you just said I struggled with this yesterday. You said get curious, what's the struggle?

Speaker 2: 2:02:52

Oh, um, childhood, uh, trauma type stuff that I'm going through with a hypnotherapist.

Speaker 1: 2:02:58

Okay, Well, I'm just wondering for you cause you said you're struggling with it. Like, what's the struggle for you when you're curious, like you personally? Like not in that situation, but why are you?

Speaker 2: 2:03:07

Okay, okay In general. No, it was because I forget that sometimes, even though I preach it, I forget to be like to be curious when I'm in a situation that I start to go internal and I self-deprecate and then I get a you know a negative spiral and I find myself in this like depressed state. I'm like how the hell did I get here? You, know?

Speaker 1: 2:03:24

sure, because what's your enneagram, chris? You know what's funny. Uh, are you hard side or you? Which side are you on?

Speaker 2: 2:03:33

I honestly don't know, because I started. I started taking that uh Enneagram test and I felt like I fell in three different categories, that none of them seemed quite right.

Speaker 1: 2:03:46

So I may have been the health that you were in too, because, like you, can mistype pretty easily on these.

Speaker 2: 2:03:50

Probably I think, and I, I, I'm, I'm totally shooting from the hip here. I, I think I was a one, a three and a seven. Okay, but I don hip here. I think I was a one, a three and a seven, okay, but I don't know I'd have to go back.

Speaker 1: 2:04:01

That'd be that'd be mostly your tri type. So if you were a one, the internal talk is probably really brutal for you then. Oh dude, and so that's why it's a struggle is because the type ones are perfectionists, and so you're going to be struggling with, like, if something doesn't go the way you think it should, you're going to be really mean to you and yes and then like that ends up spilling over onto others absolutely so fair enough because you have to do it the right way.

Speaker 2: 2:04:24

It's got to be done, right right, and if, if I'm not, uh, I I've been a songwriter in my life in a band for about five years in my 20s such an amazing time in my life, but anyway, um, it was that thing. Like I cannot show anyone this song until it is a hundred percent complete.

Speaker 1: 2:04:42

That, yeah, that's just how it is yeah, and every time you messed up your own song, you were brutal to you, oh completely well.

Speaker 2: 2:04:50

yeah, because the it was never acknowledged to me that failure is a good thing. Yeah, it was always a bad thing. And I absolutely love the phrase you win or you learn.

Speaker 1: 2:05:05

Yep.

Speaker 2: 2:05:06

You don't lose.

Speaker 2: 2:05:07

Every loss, yeah, and and the ability to look at that and say it doesn't mean it doesn't suck or it doesn't hurt, or you're not going to have an issue with it, but if you're just stuck in the quote-unquote loss of it, you've wasted an opportunity to improve yourself or improve your life, or just better something right. So, uh, and I I think, like I said, the reason not the reason, but a big reason I do this work is because constantly working with other people reminds me of what I need to do for myself. Yeah, and that, like anything, the repetition of and the consistency of doing anything. It's amazing to me how I think uh, I forget who it was some stand-up talking about. I think it was tom segura.

Speaker 2: 2:05:54

I don't know if you're a fan, but, um, talking about, like, sex is the only thing that I've done my, you know, for as long as I have, and I seem to be getting worse at, yeah, that's pretty good man, um, but I think there's something to be said about that. If you're, you know you're trying to do these things, but you seemingly get worse at them, then either you're not being consistent, you're not getting curious, you know you're, you're and then you're falling into those judgments and getting sucked into that negative spiral, you know so it's more so than anything else is just the reminder, and that's what the the guy to guy thing does. The reminder and that's what the the guy-to-guy thing does certainly for me is remind me that I'm an an intelligent, aware guy who's actively working on himself and doing the best that I can to provide what I can for the people that I love well, you clearly are.

Speaker 1: 2:06:52

You're doing I think you're doing a great job on this. This. This giving this conversation is a testament, if you are a type one, to how much work you've done on yourself because, I'm a type eight, so I'm a challenger, so obviously I go fucking hard.

Speaker 2: 2:07:05

That's what I do, and and I knew it, I, I, I made it a point to watch a number of uh of your conversations, knowing and even then, even because that first time you came at me I wasn't quite ready for it it but, it's well, and that's the thing too, is um in my experience, because I was always again that perfectionist type thing, so I would hang back until I could come out with something. I never argued a point that I wasn't certain about, and so people thought that I wasn't you know oh, you're not aggressive, you're not assertive, you're just this very agreeable type guy.

Speaker 2: 2:07:48

No, you're tactical Right and know that when I come for you, it's over for you.

Speaker 1: 2:07:54

Yeah, you already see the spot You're coming in. You already know.

Speaker 2: 2:07:57

But at the same time I also don't want to be that guy I don't want to gotcha to, unless someone is just being a total asshole. That's different.

Speaker 1: 2:08:05

Well, again, that's that's when you have to be a protector in that in that case, and so your proficiency would show. But with the perfectionist types, I, I will challenge you into a way where you're like I fucking hate this. This isn't right. You shouldn't be talking like this and I don't like this conversation. And you start getting in so like you do a good job of listening and being able to like like, all right, let me soak that in for a second Cause.

Speaker 1: 2:08:30

I already know there's many things you're like I don't agree with that shit at all. Oh, yeah, of course I already know, but that's okay. Okay, because we're not supposed to agree. We're in different parts of the spectrum, so we're supposed to be like well, how, what are you talking about, man? What are you seeing the most? And this is just for anybody who's made it this far. This is two hours and seven minutes and anybody who's made it this far. Go back and see how much I'm doing. Judgment versus observation. I bet you that'll fuck people up because they think I'm being very judgmental. If you go back, you listen. I was extremely observational.

Speaker 2: 2:09:00

Yeah, I can attest to that.

Speaker 1: 2:09:01

Yeah, so that's where people get goofed up. It's like women are doing this, Men are doing this, Women are doing this, Men are doing this and they're like he hates women and he hates this. I'm like, no, go back and see how many times I said these people are the pieces of shit and these people all deserve this and they should do this. Just go back and count and you'll go. He was just pointing out shit. He didn't actually give a judgment.

Speaker 2: 2:09:22

Well, and if you notice, I never contradicted you if I didn't have the stats. Yeah Well. I'm not challenging you for stats.

Speaker 1: 2:09:28

I want your opinion on things, and so this is because you're an emotion coach, and so you're going to come into emotion.

Speaker 2: 2:09:41

One thing I'm going to do here is you took us so far in the weeds off this alpha thing, Chris. I don't know where you were going with all that, so we got to bring it back.

Speaker 1: 2:09:45

Yeah, yeah, no, that never happens. I don't know what you're talking about. It was definitely you, it wasn't.

Speaker 2: 2:09:49

No, and I can admit it, it was me, it was a thousand percent me.

Speaker 1: 2:09:52

I know that was me.

Speaker 2: 2:09:56

Okay, it's the whole David Me meck thing. You familiar with that.

Speaker 1: 2:10:02

No, I don't know what. That is, what the david?

Speaker 2: 2:10:04

what david meck?

Speaker 1: 2:10:06

I don't know who.

Speaker 2: 2:10:08

He was the uh, biologist who coined the phrase alpha male back in the 70s. Um, because he studied wolf packs and he did a lot of research and, uh, I forget how many years he did it, but he wrote a whole book about the alpha male and put it out into the world and everyone's like, oh, hell, yeah, you know. And then it's just ingrained in the zeitgeist and everyone's talking about, oh, I want to be an alpha, I'm an alpha, you know. And it's just this thing. Now, fast forward. I don't I forget how long I think it was.

Speaker 2: 2:10:42

I think it was in the 90s that he realized he made a mistake and tried to retract it. But it was so deeply ingrained in the zeitgeist that that people didn't. It's like front page news and then a retraction on page 13. You know what I mean and what the mistake that was made was. And that's not to say there aren't alphas in nature, because of course there are, but it was how they work and what they do, how they manage the pack, the group, you know, the family.

Speaker 2: 2:11:16

And the mistake was that he studied wolves in captivity. And the wolves in captivity Very different, yeah, were obviously not in their natural environment. So they. They started functioning out of fear and had a pecking order that was not natural Correct. And so he went back and studied wild wolves and realized that, um, whereas his, his initial assumption was well, the pack leader leads, he's in the front, but wild wolves, the pack leaders, in the back, right. So there, um, they have a certain order of where they put the young, the old, the women, the, or the females, rather, um, and it's all designed to work for the benefit of everyone, not just him, correct, and so many men have glommed onto the. It's the same thing with with misinterpreting stoicism. Yes, right, that sounds cool. I don't know how to access my emotions, so I'm stoic.

Speaker 1: 2:12:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:12:23

Is what it is.

Speaker 1: 2:12:24

I did a whole training on that's not is what it is Right. No, no, no no no, um, yeah, if.

Speaker 2: 2:12:31

If you have ever thrown anything through drywall, you are not stoic including your fist. Including your fist, yes absolutely, absolutely, and so the thing that I uh because actually one of the um one of the people that I follow is um ryan holiday daily stoic.

Speaker 1: 2:12:54

Yeah, I love his stuff and he does a good job breaking it down, because I've read I've read a lot of stoicism and it requires an interpreter. Even when I was reading marcus aurelius, I would read it to my girl and she's like what are you talking about? Like this means this, this and this? And she's like I like the interpretation.

Speaker 2: 2:13:10

Yeah yeah, there you go talking about otherwise. Well, and and especially because you, it was created a thousand plus years ago.

Speaker 1: 2:13:19

It was obviously longer than that, over 2,000 years ago. 2,000 years, yeah, epictetus, oh no, no.

Speaker 2: 2:13:22

What am I talking about? No, this is pre-Christ. It was. It was pre-Jesus yeah, marcus Aurelius, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:13:28

Well, he was around 2,000 years ago, but Epictetus was before him. Was it Nero? I think it was a guy who was at March.

Speaker 2: 2:13:36

Was Nero a stoic.

Speaker 1: 2:13:37

Really, I think it was the one who started it. It was something like that it was. He was a merchant who lost everything and he created.

Speaker 2: 2:13:43

Yeah, okay Now, yeah, that wasn't Nero, but I know who you're talking about. I forget it started with a, wasn't it? Or Z is? Yeah, I know exactly, because I've heard Ryan tell the story, so I know who. I know who you're talking about, but, yeah, so with regard, to the alpha.

Speaker 1: 2:14:03

That's whenever I hear the word zero, zero, zero zero, zero.

Speaker 2: 2:14:06

That's the one you know. I know it's something you know, and and yes, see this, and this is the part I'm talking about with regard to clarity, and what's interesting is I've been aware of this about myself. I'm a stickler for clarity, and that's a good thing. Now, um, but it came from my need to protect myself from emotion when I was younger. Makes perfect sense. I need to understand everything about the situation so I am not going to be hurt. How would you?

Speaker 1: 2:14:35

how would you be hurt? You would be bad. You would be bad, you would be wrong. You would be embarrassed. I would be punished.

Speaker 2: 2:14:41

I would feel shame Yep Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:14:45

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 2:14:52

So anytime I hear someone use the word alpha, I immediately need clarity, because if they're using the David and Mac model, it's it doesn't uphold.

Speaker 1: 2:14:56

I absolutely 100 bottom of my heart, agree with you. I love playing with words. I've done more trainings on one word than almost anybody that I know. I'm like, go ahead and tell me what it means. Like I'll send you a video later of me doing a saturday morning with some big names there's some big tiktokers and stuff that jump in my saturday mornings. Like I do a training every saturday like a bring a brother thing and I just make it open, just bring. Of me doing a Saturday morning with some big names there's some big TikTokers and stuff that jump in my Saturday mornings. Like I do a training every Saturday like a bring a brother thing and I just make it open, just bring, only bring guys you believe in, like somebody you believe in it's fight club rules.

Speaker 1: 2:15:31

Don't talk about the warrior's way. We're not here to fix all the broken ones. I'm here for the ones. And so we bring it in and I did it here. I'll send you a. It's a. It's over an hour long, with some big names saying what's respect? Okay, nobody can define this word. They can't define it, it's, it's. It's so big they couldn't figure it out. And so I have a definition of respect that beats the books. It beats everything so far. And we do trainings on happiness and leadership and all these words that people say they know, until they have to explain. And then it's subjective as hell and you don't know how to explain it, and yet somehow it's supposed to make sense well, that's the thing too, because something like happiness I don't think can be objective.

Speaker 1: 2:16:18

No, it's subjective as hell, it's extremely subjective. And then also, you see, like some of the people, like Arthur C Brooks and people who will write books, and Harvard professor who says here's how you find happiness you have to measure the satisfaction, the enjoyment and the purpose of it. And you're like, well, those are also three subjective words. Yeah, you're telling me, to find happiness, I have to learn one subjective word and then three other subjective words and I have to go to Harvard and then maybe I can figure out happiness.

Speaker 1: 2:16:51

I know people who never went to Harvard, who have happiness all the time. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 2:16:56

And that's that's that human desire to make sense of something you can't well, that's why the emotion coach thing is so cool.

Speaker 1: 2:17:04

Um is because the to be able to connect and feel is very different. And this is the thing where guys with their vulnerability and guys needing to be in control and control is definitely the issue is they think they control everybody. And when I try and tell people, like, do you want real control? You want to control everything. Understand that you control nothing. Thousand. Yeah, when you, when you get it, then you get it. And people have to go through mind, heart, body and soul. You have to go through all the parts of acceptance to truly be at peace with what is and that's made it. So. All my girls are very close with me because I do not try to tell them what they should, shouldn't be, can or can't be, they're bad or they're good. I accept what they are and then I just offer them, of course, correction to give them what they want.

Speaker 2: 2:17:51

And it's funny. It's funny that you said not only that, but about control, because I had a, I had a note here that I wanted to acknowledge, like getting into parenting and being a dad and all of that, yeah, and it it hit me cause my, my daughter, had asked me. It's like why are you, why are you always the boss, dad? Why are you, why do you get to tell me what to do? It's a good question, um, yeah, absolutely fair and worth, worth a response. Um, and I said I am not. I am, it is not my job to control you. It is my job to teach you how to control yourself. I like it, and doing what I'm doing is part of that process. So, and and you know, even just getting an example of um, hey, I want to be the boss and do this thing, okay, go ahead. Well, okay, and then you know daddy, I need help, okay, I'm here for you, what do you need? You know. And then, after the whole process, it's like hey, kiddo, yeah, that's why I'm the boss.

Speaker 1: 2:18:55

That's why I'm the boss. You're right. I'm like go ahead and do it. I do this with a lot of people. I'm like it seems like you're ready to do it. Yep. You're up.

Speaker 2: 2:19:06

Yeah Well, and also again from a leadership perspective in modeling right, I messed up, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 2:19:15

Here's what I did wrong. I'm sorry. Here's what I did wrong. We just had a video that's I'm viral right now. From saying sorry.

Speaker 2: 2:19:19

You know what I saw it? The sorry video.

Speaker 1: 2:19:22

Yes, yes. And you know what we don't say, sorry here.

Speaker 2: 2:19:26

No, and I heard your response about it and your clarification on it. Yeah. And I hear that and I think, I think that's one of those subjective things, that if it works, great, yes, some people. I truly believe that it's a subjective thing because some people again, words, right, some people need well, you're not sorry, you didn't say it.

Speaker 1: 2:20:01

Well, what's the need for somebody apologizing?

Speaker 2: 2:20:06

The actual need or the perceived need? Either both.

Speaker 1: 2:20:09

Well, the actual need is accountability and respect, but being I am sorry isn't necessarily accountability.

Speaker 2: 2:20:18

Okay, well, let's put it this way when I don't say I'm sorry, I say I apologize.

Speaker 1: 2:20:24

Well, what's the difference?

Speaker 2: 2:20:26

Well, for me I'm sorry means I misstepped, and I'll do my best not to do it again. Well, what's apologizing? That's the definition. Well, I'm just using using, because again I'm using a different word, because, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm like you said, in the video it gets overplayed and it's like, well, it doesn't mean anything because you say it all the time might be right, but if apologizing is different than saying sorry, what's the difference?

Speaker 1: 2:20:51

so that way I can like.

Speaker 2: 2:20:52

I want to know no, for me personally, in that situation it's just using the different word so it doesn't get caught up in a. Well, you said that about this thing and you know it's a different situation but does it mean it?

Speaker 1: 2:21:04

does it mean a different thing for you?

Speaker 2: 2:21:10

no, it's the same thing.

Speaker 1: 2:21:11

I'm sorry I was wondering like it sounds like I'm doing the same thing. It's just uh. Does it feel like nicer? I guess I don't.

Speaker 2: 2:21:18

I don't know why it would be different no, no, uh, as I said, it's just because I've had to have conversations with my daughter about this. Oh I'm sorry daddy. Oh I'm sorry daddy, kiddo, you don't need to apologize for that. I was simply giving you different information so you can make a better choice, and I, every time she says it like that you didn't.

Speaker 1: 2:21:40

That's not an I'm sorry situation yeah, it sounds like for that one, I agree. I don't think she needs to apologize to learn how to grow no, no, no I just agreed with your advice for even my video where I was like we don't apologize here because it's not necessary for growth, because I am sorry, or I apologize the acknowledgement that's not necessary for growth because I am sorry, or I apologize the acknowledgement. That's supposed to be accountability. We can do that by going oh damn, I did that thing. Well, that's accountability.

Speaker 2: 2:22:06

So you're just saying just specifically not using the word because it's unnecessary. Is that what you're?

Speaker 1: 2:22:11

saying, Even when I mentioned the Rosenberg element of it, sorry is generally and this is this is the most common. It's an unhealthy use of sorry. Say you're sorry, Chris. No, oh yeah, Say you're sorry like you mean it, Whatever the fuck that means. I don't know what that means Like I'm sorry. Now go to your room Like it's meant to make you feel bad. Sure, and this is the difference, because people have guilt and shame goofed up. Guilt is feeling bad for something I did or didn't do. Shame is feeling bad for what I am and so saying sorry is.

Speaker 1: 2:22:46

I am sorry. I am Me. What I am is sorry I am. And this is where identity comes in. I am bad, I am not okay. I am an, an alcoholic, I am a smoker, I am. It's identity I am.

Speaker 2: 2:23:04

What I did was wrong versus I am wrong correct.

Speaker 1: 2:23:08

Now. Guilt is meant to just show us the mistakes so we can learn from it like, oh damn, I didn't do that right, or I was totally screwed that up. Or oh man, I could have done it better this way. Okay, fair enough, you could have. What did you learn? That's what it was for. It just shines a flashlight on it.

Speaker 1: 2:23:22

Now. I don't believe I have to go like I'm sorry. I'm sorry, and people have used that because they've been shamed into submission from judgment. Or you are bad, so say you're sorry for being bad, and that's why it's overused so much. And so the unhealthy version of say you're sorry is meant to say you are bad, acknowledge you're bad. Well, I don't agree with that. I never require you to apologize.

Speaker 1: 2:23:52

So like if we had something that went like not cool, it doesn't matter. I use the being late thing as one example. She hates that shit, but like anything, it can be something. I use the being late thing as one example. She hates that shit, but like anything, it could be something. We're like oh damn, I totally fucked that thing up. I could I overcooked the thing, or I, you know, messed that thing up, or I, you know I broke it. I didn't mean to. You know those kind of things where I can acknowledge damn, that thing just happened. I learned that this thing does that. I'm, you know, not gonna do that ever again. What's an agreement that we can do? You want me to replace it or I'll just make sure I get another one. Like, how can we make that cool? It doesn't require me feeling any type of shame the entire time to be able to learn a lesson.

Speaker 2: 2:24:28

Yeah, I get that and I I see your point and I see why you choose not to use it. And what's interesting is, as you were talking, it hit me why I like I apologize better. Why? Because there's no am. Yeah, I am no, I apologize, I misstepped. Not that I am bad, but that thing I did was not okay.

Speaker 1: 2:24:49

Makes perfect sense. That helps me out, like why do you like that better? You're like because I don't.

Speaker 2: 2:24:52

I don't apply.

Speaker 1: 2:24:54

I don't apply identity and that makes it so that I can be more objective. Yes, yeah, absolutely. That's a. That's a great reason why I use it. It makes sense to me.

Speaker 2: 2:25:04

Yeah, and it's, uh, it's funny. Is it again the Enneagram one?

Speaker 1: 2:25:09

Um, yeah, I see you getting in there. I've started speaking differently to you now that I know your personality type. Well, I'm speaking your language now, so I understand your personality type now and it it is a I.

Speaker 2: 2:25:23

I view it as kind of a spiral and, um, it was also another defense mechanism. Obviously I'm a talker. Um, my point, my point, is here, but I don't know it's there. So I start here and I just spiral into it and then it's like, hey, you know what I'm going to say that again. And then I just say one sentence. It's like that 10 minutes of me talking was just that, thanks though.

Speaker 1: 2:25:42

Well, that's, that's why together we're stronger, and so it's always good to have those things where, like I'll challenge those questions in and then you just figured out. Why do I apologize instead of say I'm sorry, now, you have now anytime ever says like do you say that you were, you got that weapon right in the arsenal?

Speaker 2: 2:25:57

absolutely and right, there is one of the biggest reasons I love the work and I have actually, uh, two of my very best friends. Uh, I have only physically met them once. Uh, I met on tiktok and we cultivated a relationship over the last three years through the pandemic and everything. Um, and it was actually, it was fantastic, uh, for the my birthday this past year or this most recent year um, we they flew out and we grabbed a cabin out in idle, wild california and and just spent the weekend together and it was like we were old college buddies that just haven't seen each other in a while. You know, I have the same thing. Yeah, it is we. We have a daily that, that daily check-in that I talked to you about. We do that with each other. We have a marco polo strength, um, um feed and we check in with each other every single day, not for any other reason than to get in the practice of it and to work that muscle, and so much so that, um and I I didn't actually get into this, but, uh, the kind of catalyst that got me into this work was that thing.

Speaker 2: 2:27:09

I told you that happened in 2019. Yeah, it was actually. My sister died. She committed suicide. So that whole experience. I had something hit me recently that had I not been doing that practice of checking in with myself and just getting used to, I taste the coffee. I feel a soreness in my foot, you know that stuff. I identified an emotion I was having about myself because of my sister's death, I was having about myself because of my sister's death, and I I was able to move through something that I wouldn't have known was there even just a couple months ago. So the the groundwork of doing that seemingly piddly stuff like what the hell am I doing this? Who cares if I can taste coffee? You know it's, it's. It really does make a difference. And it lands so like that first time that it happens without you having to do anything, where it's just second nature and habit like holy crap, this is amazing. Granted, then you have to figure out what to do about it. But you get there.

Speaker 1: 2:28:10

You know, no, but I think the what I hear from this and like honor to your sister, you know, that's it's, it's, it's really it's the suicide stuff I've had. I've had too many funerals and so I I honor you for that, I honor her for having you guys had to go through tough loss and, um, it's, it's good that you've done what you were meant to do and what her sacrifice was for is for you to find the meaning for you to be able to find through tragedy. You have found yourself and it's it's sucks that some of these lessons have to be that way, but she was teaching you something that this was not a lesson I was wanting to learn and not this way, that's for damn sure absolutely not your heart was closed off because you were riddled with judgment.

Speaker 1: 2:28:54

And to be able to find acceptance of self, even through do I like this coffee without being not good Like that's a tough game, and so I can see the challenge that you've had to go. I have to open this side up and the truth is is when I opened up heart side, I had to go through every funeral over again. Uh, yeah, I can see that I had to read because I didn't grieve them I, I only did mind or body and uh, even when I go through spirit side, it's very different, but heart side I didn't. I didn't emotionally grieve all of the people who I've lost. I've had best friends killed. I've had suicides. I had people die in front of me, even my grandpa, like I mentioned, like I, I had these things, like when I had those.

Speaker 1: 2:29:37

These people die right in front of me. Some people I've seen death happen right in front of my eyes. I wasn't connected emotionally to those things. I was shut off, and that's where a lot of us are. You were the same way. We're both body side and we were repressed. The emotion. We were on the heart side, your body side, just like I am, and so we'll just push that shit down, cause fuck'll power through. I don't give a fuck, and so that would be what we would do, and so when you turn that on, you're like, oh, this is a lot, like it's a lot inner child work.

Speaker 1: 2:30:10

I'm like go fuck yourself until I opened up the heart side. I'm like, well, there's the little dude, holy shit yes, like all that stuff where you're like I didn't know that stuff was in there, because you know you go. Body side I'm like I'm looking at the gym, there ain't no fucking kids in here. And like mind side, there's no kids in the library, you know. Spirit side I'm like church got no children. We're good.

Speaker 2: 2:30:40

You know I'm like it's hard, you know it's. What's interesting too is uh and it's I tend to go with the first analogy that pops into my head. I'm sure you've noticed that, um, um, I had a, I had a great awareness with um because, as I'm sure you know, the only two fears were born with right fear of falling and fear of loud noises and, um, my now 11 month old daughter. We, uh, my wife and I do like protein shakes every morning and we have a blender in the kitchen that we use it. Um, and it was amazingly apparent, and rightly so, when she first started coming around to be big enough to sit in a high chair or, you know, be in around the kitchen in the morning.

Speaker 2: 2:31:19

I would make my shake and she just start crying, right, not surprising at all. And I watched and I saw after it wasn't even that long, maybe about a month um, where now I turn the blender on and she just goes oh yeah, the blender's on, she's not even a year old yet. So the conditioning of that process and and have it, as you were saying, where you're just oh, this is too much, it's so much. And that's the point of doing those little exercises, because then it may be a couple months, it may be a couple years, it's different for everybody. But you reach that point where you're like, oh yeah, the blender's on, wow, that's a lot.

Speaker 1: 2:32:10

Well, it's amazing what we can be trained to do and that's where, like the default program for who we are. It's amazing what we can be trained to do and, uh, even negative things, especially negative things. The default program in the autopilot, like I said, now that I kind of get who you are and how you work, um, the empathy I would have for how mean you are to you is something most people won't understand. Dude, you have kicked the shit out of yourself, like in ways people will, just they just won't get it. Um, ones and and fours, even sixes. You're just so fucking mean to yourselves, so mean. It's like, why are you so mean to you? Like, don't do that. And the shame, the shame is so thick that you're just not good. And, uh, the things you guys will go through to be good, um, you've probably found in your past, perfectionist generally create the most chaos If it's not done, perfect. It makes me fucking so angry. And you're like oh, sure.

Speaker 1: 2:33:11

Perfectionists tend to be highly critical of themselves and others and make more mess because it's not done.

Speaker 2: 2:33:21

Right. Well, what's interesting is I skewed a little bit there because I didn't. I didn't go external with it. I would always go and forgive the analogy, but it's like holding in a fart. It's just, you're like where it, just like you pucker it up, yeah, and it, and you have like rebound inside your body.

Speaker 2: 2:33:40

You're like, oh god, that wasn't good, you know, and it's, it's there is that emotional experience for me, and that's what I realized was, and and I I generally I genuinely believe that it's just as detrimental whether you're exploding or just sending it back down. Yeah, it's just again the extremes on the spectrum.

Speaker 1: 2:34:07

It's still suppression to expression. It probably went more to depression than it did rage for you.

Speaker 2: 2:34:12

Yes, although I did have this ongoing thought process that I and this was probably when I was a teenager I feel bad for the person who pushes me to explode. Yeah, because I'm going to take it all out on them well, I don't just mean verbally, that's like let's fuck around and find out.

Speaker 2: 2:34:33

Bro, you're speaking my language now well, and that's the thing, too, is like and this is very much where we differ as far as, uh, and first of all, regardless of the things we disagree about, I respect what you're doing for men and women too, certainly, but just, you know what works for you. You have built something around it and you're helping people with it. Yes, and regardless of anything that we disagree about, there's honor and merit in that and I I acknowledge you for that, appreciate you, and that I think is is probably the biggest need that we have right now, especially in doing this work, is I I never, never want to bring politics into this conversation in conversations like this, but just the acknowledgement of there used to be a reason why no one talked about politics. Right, we could still be around and with each other, disagree and share a meal, share a beer, have a connection. Right now, it's like you say one thing oh, you're that type of person judgment again yeah, yeah, the the judgment.

Speaker 1: 2:35:47

I've been talking about this for a couple years. Judgments are the enemy right now. That's the tool for destruction. Yeah, the tool for destruction is judgment. This is why, when you started speaking in all those terms, I'm like don't you see that this is a beatable thing? We fight the judgment, not all these other symptoms. Get the cause. If you can block judgment, you become bulletproof to people's bullshit. It's just catching it. Do you understand whether it's just catching it? Do you understand whether it's doubt or fear? Whatever the judgment is, if you can catch it, you become bulletproof.

Speaker 1: 2:36:21

You can tell me, you can call me any name you want. Tell me I'm not good. Tell me a piece of shit. I might challenge my competency. You know we even the Warriors way people when they come in, I'm very, very hard. I push my men hard. No one has ever done my program and done that was easy. Like this is the hardest fucking, because I challenge you to your core aggressively. We will get in there and fight the demon that's been put in. We will. I will fucking fight it with you. Let's pull it out like, bring it out.

Speaker 1: 2:36:50

I'm not scared of that thing and it's the last rule to the warrior's way is to challenge everything, and so we train our men to have that discord you're talking about I we're supposed to disagree. It's crazy if you came from what you came from and I came from what I came from and we just agree on everything oh, yeah, that's bananas.

Speaker 1: 2:37:14

Yeah, of course it is, yeah, so like the honor for you to say like man, I can respect what you're doing. I respect what you're doing because you disagree with me. You're supposed to and that's why my leadership I push so hard. I'm like you need to. I don't care if it's your first day. You need to challenge me for competency before you follow. Ask me hard questions, see if I back up my shit and see if I'll come in and get you challenge me if I do not walk the walk.

Speaker 2: 2:37:44

Don't sign up for shit and that's a great position to come from when you're trying to be in this position that you're trying to be in, because it's it's proof is in the pudding right out of the gate, which is yeah, absolutely, and then, and then you have trust, then you have confidence and and they're going to listen. So I totally get that. Um, and what's interesting and I've been it's been popping in my head as we've been talking I came from that very like suburban. You know, I grew up 20 minutes north of boston, um, and I always resolved conflict with logic and conversation. I got in a couple scrapes here and there, but it was very minor compared to what you've said you.

Speaker 1: 2:38:31

You went through oh, detroit's very nice. Yeah, we've fought all the time.

Speaker 2: 2:38:33

We were not so I didn't have and I, I just I never. It's not that I couldn't do it because I did it, but I didn't enjoy scrapping with my buddies. It just wasn't an enjoyable thing for me. Yeah and uh, the times that I've had to in my life, I'm, I feel, glad that I was able to hold my own um, but it was much more in, you know, like a martial arts class or something a little more controlled um, that I found enjoyment in it because it was for a purpose, not just to prove something or, you know, and that's a lot of where I saw, you know, physical engagement when I was younger was why, why, why are you even doing? This is pointless what you're trying to do.

Speaker 1: 2:39:20

Well, it wasn't pointless. It just wasn't something that benefited you. There were, these fights would still have. There's a reason.

Speaker 2: 2:39:28

It's not necessarily a good one, but there's no, I'll give you that for sure. There's a reason for everything. It may not be a good one.

Speaker 1: 2:39:37

It might not be a good reason, but there's a reason for everything. It may not be a good, one might not be a good reason.

Speaker 2: 2:39:41

But there's a reason, there's a purpose for it and I think, looking back, I always saw it like you're looking for something and you're not going to find it by doing what you're doing. And I didn't, I couldn't cognitively understand that, um, and that's not to say what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1: 2:39:56

I want to make sure I don't misinterpret what you just okay.

Speaker 2: 2:39:59

So, for example, there's many different versions of this that could be um, I need to prove to you that I'm strong. I want you to respect me, so I'm gonna I'm gonna push your buttons until you do something, so that I can you know again. It's that manipulation in order to get something for yourself.

Speaker 1: 2:40:21

In which case you're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're testing for weakness by challenging If I'm capable of self protection like well, am I worthy to even be in your circle? You? Ever you ever seen guys get in a fist fight and then they're best friends.

Speaker 2: 2:40:37

Oh yeah, yeah, no, I know what you're talking about. That's the purpose, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:40:41

And so, like if you were pushing my buttons to challenge my competency, and then we had a good scrap and I got to fuck, my eyes fucked up and your lips all fucked up, and you're like dude, good, fucking fight. Now you go like dude. I can see that you would hold your own. I can see that you don't cower and run. I can see that you fight back. There's purpose there, because now I can find camaraderie, knowing that if shit did go down, I'd rather you were next to me than on the other team.

Speaker 2: 2:41:04

Absolutely, and for clarity, uh, I, I want to acknowledge that it didn't work for me and a lot of the guys that I saw doing it were doing it less about what you're talking about and more about I want to be recognized, I want to. I I want to feel good about me, so I'm gonna hurt someone else, so other people view me. You're talking about bullies.

Speaker 1: 2:41:32

Sure, that's very different, because, like this is where this is why, um, my personality type talk to any type eight personality we fucking hate bullies. We're the ones who, if someone picked on chris, I go fuck you dude, fuck with me like I was. Eights hate bullies. We fucking hate picking on a little guy. We don't like it, you know, unless they were highly abused and they go into sociopath behavior and they start picking, they become the bullies. But it takes another eight then to go like fuck that motherfucker, like so.

Speaker 2: 2:42:03

But there's a thing to bullies, but there is a thing with them that they also will respect someone who won't back down and you know what I, I I also acknowledge the necessity of meeting people where they are, so I totally get that aspect too. It's like, uh, and to nerd out again, let's do it. It would be like because, um, I am one of those rare star trek and star wars fans usually it's either or right, they were both made sense yeah, absolutely, but it was, uh, the the tellerites.

Speaker 2: 2:42:40

You familiar enough with star trek to know the tellerites no, I don't remember which ones okay, their, their entire culture result revolves around, uh, one-upping each other with insults. So when, when the the first Starship met them, they had to be like, okay, they're not being insulting, they're respecting us and we have to adapt to that because it's their culture. So, recognizing that, hey, you know what? This person is not going to hear me unless I approach it this way, and this is of benefit why I'm doing this.

Speaker 1: 2:43:20

That is a very different thing. You have to tolerate the tolerates.

Speaker 2: 2:43:24

Yeah, yeah, basically.

Speaker 1: 2:43:26

That's no, we used to call that, that's just working at the bar. Yeah, I remember when I started working at the bar, you know, when I was there, there was one of the barbacks who was just you fucking, just tear on me. Man just say just fuck with me. I was like dude, you gotta get on making you swallow your fucking teeth, dude. He's like dude, you gotta calm the fuck down, man. He's like this is the bar dude, you just get get funnier. Man, just witty back, just hit me back. Man, just I'll say something shitty. You say so, you just gotta get good at that shit. Man, get with it, yeah, get good, yeah. And so like I was ready to break his head open and he's like no, no, no, no, I'm fucking with you because I like you. You gotta fuck with me because you like me. That's how we do it.

Speaker 2: 2:44:04

It's a bar man have you seen the movie the gentleman?

Speaker 1: 2:44:08

not yet. It's on my list. I saw it okay the.

Speaker 2: 2:44:11

There's a famous uh scene with colin farrell in the deli. I don't know if you've seen it, uh, but it's basically a bunch of you know kids you know they're teenagers coming in trying to act all tough and he's basically basically just turns around. He's like if you're gonna stab me, stab me, otherwise shut the fuck up. And you know, come at me with something. And and he just insults all of them and he's like come at me, make it good, make it funny you know, and then they're like fuck you and he's like that's it man.

Speaker 2: 2:44:40

Come on, that's your bestest, fuck you and then he goes into this whole thing. I forget how he says it, but it's um, like, oh god, like boys hit, women stab. You know, men shoot and grown-ups fight with their fucking brains or something like that. But you know, it was great how he, how he said it, and it was he could give a shit and they all came at him and he just slapped them and they just fall to the ground. And then afterwards he was like come by the gym, we'll see what you can do with these. You know, and it was just the, the enjoyment of that interaction, and I see just the, the enjoyment of that interaction, and I see the benefit of doing that from that perspective. I was just never that guy and anytime I was approached, I vividly remember this experience from college where you know everyone's drunk or outside townhouses, and some dude just says, hey, you know, oh, do you know this?

Speaker 2: 2:45:40

you know we start talking. Hey, do you know this person? And I was like, oh, no, I don't think I do. And he said, oh, if you don't know this person, then I I think we got a problem. I'm like what? And clearly he just he was just looking for a fight because he, he was drunk and he wanted to get scrappy, you know, and problem and it was it, it, it, you know, proud parted. We're standing there, his guys are behind him, my friends are behind me and it it's everyone's just like.

Speaker 2: 2:46:06

Oh here, we go and I, literally I was. I was about this close to him and I went right here and I was like I don't know someone. You know how fucking stupid is that? And he was like I just couldn't because he was waiting for me to throw a fist and when I came at him with just a statement of logic, he didn't know what to do.

Speaker 1: 2:46:29

You, did you ever watch? Lie to Me. There's, I love that Well, dr Lightman was Tim Roth. They did a really good job. He would do those things. They were disruptors. It would make it so people wouldn't be able to stay in there like their posture, and so he would do very like a like in your face movements to get a genuine response yeah, and he always had his head kind of tilted down. He's always yeah you do like he's always in the I loved that show.

Speaker 1: 2:46:54

It was a bummer. Got canceled on the third season, agreed Agreed, but they had a bad time slot. It was a good show, just not a bad slot. But in any case, like he would do those disruptors, you did a disruptor, you goofed up his whole thing. You were supposed to do one thing and did a very weird thing and that goofed him up and you know it surprised him and a sincere, genuine response instead of uh, his like I'm gonna kick your ass now.

Speaker 1: 2:47:20

He was hoping that you threw some stupid punch, but you did like a in your face, mate, and you're like what you know? I was like right, what do you do? You know?

Speaker 2: 2:47:28

shock to the system. Yeah, shocked him out of his yeah, yeah that was a good job, absolutely well done.

Speaker 1: 2:47:32

That's some warrior shit.

Speaker 2: 2:47:33

I like it well, and I I guess I'll complete the thought by the acknowledgement of of kind of our difference. Um, because I came from that need to kind of talk things out as opposed to fight things out, and coming from that perfectionist and that need to well need to please, because I'm a recovering people pleaser big time.

Speaker 1: 2:48:03

You're a one slash two. You like to help people, of course.

Speaker 2: 2:48:07

And well, yeah, that was also how I got acknowledgement, Of course, as you're good, because you help, yes, and then that became my identity, and I did it at the expense of myself.

Speaker 2: 2:48:20

You've compromised so much of you, you didn't even know who you were anymore no, no, absolutely not, um, and so I tend to attract those types of guys who I work with. So it's less. I never, I've never responded to, uh, well, to opposite psychology and uh, you know, trying to amp me up, it just doesn't land right, um, so it's interesting even just just having this conversation and seeing your style of communication, as well as what I know about what you do in the warrior's way. Um, I, I again, I appreciate the similarities with the work, but the difference in technique, correct, you know, cause I, there are plenty of guys that need what you, what, how you're doing it, and I certainly am working with the guys that need how I'm doing it and I, I appreciate that from a collective desire to make this shit better, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:49:15

Yeah, you're saying something that I very much also agree with. Um, whenever I talk to other guys who work in the in with men, um, the, the things that people would naturally think is like well, who's the biggest competition? Like who's the biggest? Like who's the biggest guy in the in the manosphere for that stuff, I'm like all of us together, yeah, like we're all there's. No, I don't have any competition in this, because I do transformation, not just information.

Speaker 1: 2:49:42

You think this, this is us doing the show. What the deep work we both do is. This is us doing high level banter for funds. Like this is this people just get. We're dropping a lot of wisdom in here, but we're doing it in a very fun way, but the deep work, no. When I go into hell to go and pull somebody out of addiction or depression or suicide, when I go into the fucking nastiness of it all, that's a. That's a different thing when you see the skill that I bring. That's why I say challenge competency, cause I'll walk right in a fire for you. You don't know what I am until you get to see what I do, and so that's where, like you know, my purpose is not podcast. My purpose is way deeper than this, and so that's why it's fun to have these, but my, what I do, I can probably only handle maybe four to 500 guys a year, cause I do transformation, not just information. I'm not just selling like watch my videos.

Speaker 1: 2:50:33

Yeah, no I got to get you out of your shit. I got to dig you out, we got to pull you up and there's a lot of guys who need intervention, especially through like depression and stuff. You got to have somebody like tow your truck out so that way you can drive again. Like nothing wrong with that, we need it. And so, absolutely, how many guys need help? Like millions and millions.

Speaker 1: 2:50:55

I can only get a couple hundred a year. Like that's as much as I can handle and my group. I got good guys with me, but we can only handle a true, deep transformation with only a few hundred guys. And so, like we we're pretty loaded up, like we're we're doing good. I I'd have to say, like you know, listen to some of these other guys and grab in the piece that you identify with, like yeah, so that you identify with, like yeah. So there's guys like well, I think I like chris better man, no offense, I'm like you're supposed to. Like they're not competing. I'm a very aggressive, I'm gonna push fight club style shit. I'm gonna go tyler durden and do his style.

Speaker 1: 2:51:30

It's yeah, he's got a different approach, but that may be more of what you need, because I fuck your comfort zone up like your comfort zone doesn't exist.

Speaker 2: 2:51:40

With me, we're gonna push you into hard things see, and that, that, and of course it makes sense, uh, and so many guys respond to that yeah uh, and it's almost necessary for like I, I don't hear you unless you're doing that.

Speaker 2: 2:51:56

I know guys like like that, I have buddies like that. It just is what it is. I'm just not that guy. I don't respond that way, so my stuff ends up being all right. Well, you keep coming at me. I mean, granted, you come too far. That's a whole different story. I am going to defend myself. I'm not just going to sit there and take it, but at the same time.

Speaker 2: 2:52:20

Up until that point I'm just going to disengage. I'm like I. I. I have no interest in what the hell you're doing, man. Like what you know, you're trying to get me to do something good by treating me like shit. That doesn't work for me. And again I.

Speaker 3: 2:52:34

That's I know you're not. You're not treating people like shit.

Speaker 1: 2:52:37

Again. Yes, healthy eight, unhealthy eight. The judgment part that you're talking about, yeah, it.

Speaker 2: 2:52:42

A thousand percent is my perception of what you're doing, because that's what didn't work for me. As a kid, I got bombarded by, like you know, older uncles and unhealthy? Yeah, absolutely, and it was. It was all the stuff, right.

Speaker 1: 2:53:20

Oh, you're a pussy, you're. You know you're not going to. You got a man up all the stuff. So it was, whenever I get inundated, almost no type ones and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 2:53:26

This is.

Speaker 1: 2:53:26

This is where this is why like this is why the beauty in the way that you are doing is necessary is because very rarely would your personality type come into my group now there is again the spectrum.

Speaker 2: 2:53:37

We need a more diverse way of doing it.

Speaker 1: 2:53:40

Yeah, we are not competition, I know anybody who's like I need that style. Go to chris, like, do that style, like that's what you need for that, because my style may trigger you into a defense, even if I'm like dude, I fucking love you. That's why I'm in here with you and you're like yeah, but you wouldn't love me. You'd love me if you didn't yell at me. I'm like no, you're. You're fucking sleeping in the middle of a blender.

Speaker 2: 2:54:02

I need you to get the fuck out of there.

Speaker 1: 2:54:05

Yes, there we go, yeah like you're about to get eaten up by this thing like no, no, no, no, no well and not for nothing.

Speaker 2: 2:54:10

But so many men and and this I've run into this problem as well the conversation with, uh, you know, women will say my guy doesn't do anything unless I yell at him like, yeah, because you didn't need to do anything because again, it was growing up, that's. That's like I don't have to listen to my parents. Oh shit, they're angry.

Speaker 2: 2:54:30

Okay, I'll do it right so it's, and that's one of my other favorite parts of this work is discovering oh shit, yeah, this. The way I react to how my wife says this thing is the same way I reacted to when my dad or my mother said this to me. Correct, and being able to navigate that, even if you don't know all the ins and outs of it, but acknowledging it.

Speaker 2: 2:54:55

Yeah, and and that's again going back to back to okay, I know how that affects me and I know that this is where I end and this is the rest is hers, so I know how to engage now because I don't have to take accountability for her stuff, correct, and that's.

Speaker 1: 2:55:11

that's a hard conversation at times, of course, like hey, that's not mine, you got to deal with that well that that gets into the, the lady stuff, and I've done enough talk on, like their, their denial system. I want to get into the thing that like um, let's go into the. The taboos, your stay-at-home dad in a world of hypergamy, how does it work?

Speaker 2: 2:55:29

yeah, um what do you mean? How does it work?

Speaker 1: 2:55:34

what, well, how do you do it? Because if you found success in it like guys a lot of times like when I say hypergamy, um, I've talked to a lot of good men who were stay-at-home dads like they lifted their woman up, they helped her get the degree or start the law firm or become a nurse or whatever it is that her dream was like I'll take care of the kids, you go and get it baby and I will lift you up, I will elevate you. And I have talked to so many guys that are like soon as she had her shit together, she fucking left my ass and like I lost everything. I lost the house. I was with the kids every day, all day long, and she took the kids from me. She took the house. She's now dating br from fucking work, who's like two levels up and from her, and he's the alpha male who's just an aggressive dick at this point and like and you're like what the fuck just happened?

Speaker 1: 2:56:27

I did every good guy thing in the book. I didn't cheat on her, I wasn't abusive, I took care of everything. There was nothing on my end. I dropped the ball on and then she stopped sleeping with me and now she's with fucking Brad. What the fuck. That's a very common conversation for my nice guys. Can you please tell me the balance of how do you do that Right Without ending up like the most common version of this?

Speaker 2: 2:56:55

I can certainly share my experience. I don't know if it's right, but it's certainly working. So and I feel like right out of the gate. There's two things I can mention, and then there's a bunch of other smaller stuff. Number one I was on the other side of it. I haven't been the stay at home dad the whole time, so we've both had both experiences. So we have that going for us. Um, number two it was a lot of circumstance. It wasn't like, hey, can you stay home with the kids so I can build my career. It was, oh, you lost your business during the pandemic because you couldn't see clients for a year, but my business increased because I can work from home. This is where we are. How can we make this work?

Speaker 2: 2:57:49

So it's always coming from a place of we are collectively here for each other, regardless of what the other person is doing. We are collectively here for each other, regardless of what the other person is doing. Is that still the case? So it's checking in that idea of choosing to remain in love with someone every single day. Being married and being in love is a choice. The love part is a feeling, but being in love is the choice right. So it's an active, ongoing check-in, whether that's daily, weekly, monthly I would recommend no more than monthly of hey, are we still doing this? And it doesn't have to be that direct, it could just be, you know, a conversation out on a date, right, like what's working for you, what's not working for you, can I help, do you need more? Can I ask for something? It's the constant communication and checking in and not being afraid, number one to be honest, to ask for what you need.

Speaker 2: 2:59:01

Um, and, and actually this big thing just came up, uh, recently where, because my sister committed suicide, my wife had a couple years where she just wasn't bringing anything up to me and we got in that conversation when she was like, babe, I'm, I'm at the end of my rope here and I, I can't like. And then we had the conversation. It's like, oh well, you already had this horrible experience and you're grieving while losing your business, becoming the stay at home parent, taking care of two kids. Now, like I didn't want to add more to it, and what came up for me was but you didn't give me a chance to say I can't take that on. And that was a huge moment for both of us to be like, holy crap, because I've actually done that to you.

Speaker 2: 3:00:00

You're building this multi-million dollar startup and awesome for you and awesome for us because we got some good income now, but you're overwhelmed. You're working 12 hours a day and then coming home to the at-home chaos and I'm worried about asking you for things because that's your state and when we were able to say, hey, you know what we're going to ask anyway, and leave it up to the other person to say I have space for that or I don't. And here's how we can resolve it. And being number one, being on the same page about what, even if you don't necessarily know where you're going, obviously that's. That's a goal and a desire to to perpetuate that philosophy, but just daily being in it together and confirming that well, I think.

Speaker 1: 3:01:00

I think the openness and the honesty part, because even still, you said openness and honesty and she was trying to protect you from something she made up for you yes, you know, I was her.

Speaker 1: 3:01:09

That's where you were like give me a chance here, like at least ask me. And that's where, like, we get in our own way is because, like he's probably overwhelmed, he lost his business, his sister, and he's got to take care of the kids all day he's probably not, he's, he's not okay. Yeah, I just made up that you're not okay for you. Yeah, exactly, you know, and so like I didn't even ask, because this also represents she may not be okay and she's not. She's like I'm overwhelmed and then, like you're well, we can't talk about that because you think that I'm not okay.

Speaker 2: 3:01:36

Right, Right and then? So you're taking away an opportunity for me to connect to you.

Speaker 1: 3:01:46

Well, she's had a 12 hour day and she's got all this pressure and stress and all these. She's doing a lot of work all day long. Like you know, you don't want to put your stuff on her. Yeah, she may be overwhelmed. You know what you got to protect her from what you made up for her too story yeah goes back.

Speaker 2: 3:02:01

It's amazing, it's, and we just make all this shit up and somehow you have to own it yes, and and it goes back to, uh, the comment that I made about buckling your seat belt while you're getting into a car accident. I, I deal with that constantly with the guys that I talk to too for sure, like you're getting into a car accident, I deal with that constantly with the guys that I talk to too For sure, like you're, you're not working on yourself unless you're in a hyper emotional state, and you can't work on yourself when you're in that state.

Speaker 1: 3:02:27

That's, that's almost all men is. We don't ask for help until we're in crisis. That's right. That's why I had to change my format for, like the our community is, I'm not here to try and go rescue the broken, because guys won't admit that, but I am here to encourage the men we believe in. And so you can be fucked up, but I still believe in you. You can be in depression, you can be suicidal, and I can still believe in you. I can still believe in you. And so we had to shift things up because go like, hey, help the guys who are broken. They're gonna be like I don't, I don't need fucking therapy, I don't need counseling. I'm like it's not therapy or counseling. Well, I don't fucking need help, right, like they're gonna resist it until like okay, chris, the house is on fucking fire, what do I do? You're like you get out.

Speaker 1: 3:03:08

That's what you do, because you fucked up. You should have.

Speaker 2: 3:03:11

You should have gotten out of there well, and there's something and that's a big thing that I and I'm I I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because I think that's I. Interestingly enough, I use military examples when I talk about that stuff. It's like all right if we're let's just say straight army, right, get a helicopter that breaks down. That helicopter is going to be pulled from service, going to be maintenanced and tested to make sure that it's functioning properly, because if not, people fucking die. And the check engine light that came on doesn't mean it's broken, it means it's working the way it's supposed to, because it's letting you know something needs to be addressed.

Speaker 2: 3:03:52

And you are ignoring all the goddamn check engine lights. The whole dashboard is lit up. And you are ignoring all the goddamn check engine lights. The whole dashboard is lit up. And you're like I'm fine. No, you're fucking not. And there's no shame in admitting that. In fact, you're more of a badass for admitting it, because you have to be brave enough to do it. So that's a big thing with me I okay, two things first off, correct.

Speaker 1: 3:04:14

second off, I'm happy I get to see your warrior side there. There you are, motherfucker, I'm happy. There you are. You're like, no, you're fucking wrong. I'm like, there he is, that's, that's that is the warrior I see you, bro.

Speaker 1: 3:04:27

I see you try to put tape on the check engine light all the time and think there won't be no more problems. I just can't open another light, put a tape on that. You're like no, no, no, no. You should have been checking what those things are, man, but we wait until the car is about, is all smoking and things are going crazy. And that's guys. That's what we're taught to. We're taught that you're bad for even asking, you're bad for needing help and there's judgment yeah because if you can't handle it yourself, then you're not a real man.

Speaker 2: 3:04:55

All that crap again, another judgment.

Speaker 1: 3:04:57

This is what you can see. It's the, it's the tools to to try to beat a man is is to have him beat himself, is you have to judge him into submission. That's the game. That's the game for everybody right now. This is why I say pay attention to judgments. Is because that's how you lose, is because they're not going to beat you up, they're going to have you beat yourself up.

Speaker 2: 3:05:15

Well and uh, what was it? I'm trying to remember now I do I. I love honesty through comedy, because oftentimes it's the only place we can put it, because it'll be rejected otherwise. Right Can be.

Speaker 1: 3:05:31

Yeah, um, and it was the idea that um men can be, yeah, um, and it was the idea that, um, men, men will, how, what was it? Men will, uh, fuck shit up and women will fuck you up. Yeah, so it's like ck yeah, was it louis ck?

Speaker 2: 3:05:51

that was louis ck, yeah where? Oh shit, you're right, yeah, he said. He said years ago too wasn.

Speaker 1: 3:05:55

He said men fuck shit up, Women will fuck you up.

Speaker 2: 3:05:59

Cause they can put a. You can put a dollar value to what men fuck up. That's Louie but women will like stab your soul or something.

Speaker 1: 3:06:07

You will not be the same person when they're done.

Speaker 2: 3:06:10

Well, and and I had another one where a great comic that I love, chad Daniels I don't know if you know him, I know him, he's fantastic. But he was talking about getting into a fight and he didn't want to fight this dude. So the guy was like, oh, you probably fight like a girl. So I had sex with his best friend, because that's how girls fight, that's how girls fight. And you know just the again, yes, it's because of the physical difference. Women, obviously there are exceptions, but they're, they're most always going to lose in a physical fight. So they got to go emotional, intellectual, that's, and that's just been the way it is for Ever, I guess.

Speaker 1: 3:06:53

Well, that was that's why I was saying the regulation to that was if you do things that are too far, you'll get physically checked, and we removed the part that checks somebody from doing I'm going to annihilate your existence.

Speaker 2: 3:07:05

And I get that.

Speaker 1: 3:07:08

Listen, I'm not saying everything's perfect, I'm just saying like no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1: 3:07:13

But if I was like, chris, I'm going to now try to destroy your marriage, destroy your business, destroy your friendships, destroy who you are as a person. I am going to tell lies and rumors and destroy you and if you're like I'll bust your fucking head open. I'm like, well, maybe I won't do all of that. Then, like there's a regulation there, there's a thing where, like no, I'll fuck you up if you do that. There's a thing to make me not want to do all those things.

Speaker 2: 3:07:41

And I acknowledge that that is there. Yes, I also acknowledge that it's a good thing that it's not there anymore, regardless of the struggles that you mentioned Maybe.

Speaker 1: 3:07:52

Maybe We'll see. Chris, let's just keep watch.

Speaker 2: 3:07:56

Maybe we'll see all right, let me, regardless of anything, take it. Maybe taking it out of context, and this may not matter if it's out of context but do you, as a human being and a man, think it's a good thing that hitting women has become taboo?

Speaker 1: 3:08:22

That hitting women has become taboo. Is that a good thing? In my opinion, the hitting women is taboo, I think, yeah. I think that, um, the way that it's been done has become wrong. Um, the way that it's been done has become wrong, and what I mean by that is a gentleman to a lady is one thing. Should you just start hitting a kind, sweet, defenseless woman? Uh, that's pretty fucked up, dude, but I think that's that's fucked up.

Speaker 1: 3:08:47

Hitting anybody who's being kind or cool, I think hitting any good human like just like hey, hey, chris, can I help you? You're like like what the fuck, dude? Like that's fucked anyways. But if I'm being a fucking maniac and I am losing my fucking mind on you and I am threatening you and I am doing wild shit, I believe anybody who's being fucking crazy should be checked. Any human, all people, and some people don't stop until they're stopped. That's across the human spectrum. So I don't play favorites. If it's good for human, do it.

Speaker 1: 3:09:23

And some people, male and female, need to be hard stopped or they do harm. And what do I call that shit? There are some people that it's fucking hero work, because there are people that will go and hurt everyone until they're stopped. This goes for the aggressive guy who's grabbing every girl's ass in the bar, or the girl who wants to throw beer bottles at somebody. People need to be stopped sometimes. So do I have a taboo about like, is it good or bad to hit women? I think bad women need to get fucked up and I think bad dudes need to get fucked up. Bad people should get fucked up for being fucking bad. That's how people get checked in life, and so do I think hitting a gentleman just bitch, slapping the shit out of a lovely young, fair maiden Like no, she's just chill and don't be a dick.

Speaker 2: 3:10:17

But like and I do get where you're coming from, I do for sure. And I like now that you've talked it out, I actually like you referring to it as a check Because, again, words and perception and all that, I think things can be viewed like okay across the board. This is bad. So if you're doing it, it doesn't matter what your reason is.

Speaker 1: 3:10:42

You're bad. Yeah, that's not I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that either.

Speaker 2: 3:10:46

That's violent, and that's across the board. That's not just being physically violent, that's anything, because there's always situations that are outside the realm of normal and need to be addressed.

Speaker 1: 3:10:58

The only absolute is that there's absolutely always something to break the absolute yes. The only, the only the only absolute is that there's? There's an absolute that breaks it. Yes.

Speaker 2: 3:11:09

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 3:11:09

Yes, otherwise it's not always or never, yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:11:13

I love paradox.

Speaker 1: 3:11:15

It's silly but true.

Speaker 2: 3:11:16

But true, um, so yeah, and I I think I I will certainly acknowledge my bias in growing up the way that I did. Um, it's not to say that there wasn't um any physical violence like you, friends and family that were in abusive situations, things like that. It was much more emotionally abusive and psychologically abusive, if anything. So the major difference between again going back to that idea of, well, if you're doing it, you're just wrong, it doesn't matter the reason, you're negating situations that you might have never experienced, that other people experience regularly, which has to be accounted for, and I certainly acknowledge that um and again, I think the the points that I've made this entire conversation, I do my best to always come at it with, the vast majority of time, this balance, but when necessary, this right, and this is only in extreme circumstances, but sometimes it is necessary.

Speaker 2: 3:12:33

I'd like to say that I understand your point and that's funny too, because I I'm I'm torn here with acknowledging the reality of the situation and condoning violence, just because you know that's not my experience and and I do not hit my kids, I never will. It doesn't matter what they do to me. That's my philosophy. It doesn't like there's a difference if someone's coming at me and I need to defend myself again. Check, like you said, I'm going to grab your hand, I'm going to hold you in a way that you can't do that anymore right, um.

Speaker 2: 3:13:18

But again coming from the emotional perspective, the vast majority of any hitting, punching fighting scenario that I've ever witnessed has come from unchecked emotion right instead of protection and that's why I say you have to build an armor for the judgments, build an armor for shame.

Speaker 1: 3:13:37

Those are different things, and so I agree with you on both, and this is where the proficiency on mind, heart, body and soul have to be there. And so, like you said, the guys who are repressed in the emotions, that's their weakest spot, and so, of course, I just shut it down. This is the armor part. That's a protection, as you're like. Well, here's what I'm going to do, chris. I'm going to keep myself fucking safe from your emotional attacks. I'm going to, I'm going to shut myself into a cement room. I'm going to borrow the window, so your negativity can't fucking get me. I'm going to lock that motherfucking door. You can't fucking hurt me, man.

Speaker 1: 3:14:08

And if you want to come in and you want to tell me something nice, you want to compliment me, you want to be friends with me, you got to go through the front fucking gate, you got to go through the metal detector, you got to get pat down, you got to do a lie detector test and you got to sit in the visitor room, and then we'll talk to each other through the window, through the little telephone, and I'm like you said this is protection, but it sounds a lot like prison man. Sure, but that's how I keep myself safe. I lock it all down, man. You're like, yeah, I see you made a prison for yourself and you called it safety and security. I see you, yeah, you're pretty clever, but um, how's that working out for you?

Speaker 2: 3:14:44

nobody loves me, nobody I don't nobody loves me.

Speaker 1: 3:14:47

I'm all alone. I'm like, yeah, that's what prison does, but yeah so yeah, I'm totally with you on that how to do better.

Speaker 1: 3:14:54

Armor makes just more sense, and so that's why I say well, armor, up against these judgments, you're a fucking pussy. Oh, thank you, man, like that's, that doesn't bother me, you know. I know I'm not an actual pussy, so it doesn't hurt my feelings, like you know. I know you have intent to do harm, but I know that that's not gonna do it. You know, and that's what? Was it? Betty white, where she's like? People are always talking about having balls.

Speaker 1: 3:15:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah but she's like, she's like they have a vagina, yeah, she's like. But she's like. I've seen pussies, pussies, take a pounding and just bounce right back but you just flick those balls. They're not okay at all. It's like I don't know, maybe. Maybe being a pussy is tougher I, I so love her.

Speaker 2: 3:15:34

bet Betty White Amazing. Yeah, talk about a badass woman, right.

Speaker 1: 3:15:37

Yeah, there's some good. There are good women and this is where they this is why I'm not red pill that 20% needs acknowledgement. There are women who are trying and there are women who are pushing into being traditional and there are women who love being feminine and there's our women who love being the nurture and the love and the compassion they love that they. And there are women who love being the nurture and the love and the compassion they love that they embrace. It's the big group is really struggling right now. The majority is having a hard time, but there are good women, so I'm not going, I'm not red pill and I don't go into like there's no point in love and relationship. No, it's probably the greatest honor. We're just being convinced now to ruin it.

Speaker 2: 3:16:17

And that's where the big group is doing it. I, I again the assumption that, oh, you're saying this, so you mean this, correct? Um and again, the this semantics and words, and you know how you're using them triggers people in different ways and the assumption to say it exposes the way that they add things sure story yeah they, they add something for me that's.

Speaker 1: 3:16:39

That's where the training, for that is the epictetus part, where you know the circumstances don't define you, they reveal you to yourself right if I say something you don't agree with.

Speaker 2: 3:16:47

It reveals how you add shit to my story yes, and and your own wounds around other people treating you that way. So you're stopping me from potentially doing that.

Speaker 1: 3:16:59

So, regardless of whether or not I'm doing that, yeah, um, yeah, I don't worry about that, but I see what you mean control, controlling what people are allowed to say, or no, right?

Speaker 2: 3:17:08

well, and and the fact that there are plenty of people who are saying similar things that do mean it that way. And if you, if you're not able to differentiate, then you're going to just broad sweep everybody, and I get that too. So, um, the ability to acknowledge the reality of what attributes I have as a man, regardless of of who I am, what's that?

Speaker 1: 3:17:36

My baby's looking through the window. She's like it's been three hours. I'm like I know.

Speaker 2: 3:17:40

I know my wife just texted me. She's like you're done, right.

Speaker 1: 3:17:43

Like maybe we don't know, we're having a good time right now. This is this is possibly my longest podcast, so I'm really yeah, I'm still good.

Speaker 2: 3:17:55

You're my last call of the day, so I'm good, okay, yeah, I'll probably have to go fairly soon, just because they're coming home soon.

Speaker 1: 3:18:00

I'm getting the look, but I'm like baby, you're in timeout, like listen, chris and I are talking. I'll be with you all night. Relax Shit.

Speaker 2: 3:18:16

I lost it. You were talking about, yeah, talking yes, no, yeah, I got it, I got it, thank you. The um, my, the attributes that I have as a man not as chris as a man, are undeniable. The attributes of women not as my wife, but as a woman are undeniable. Um, and I think oftentimes there's a because I'm labeling you this way, or I'm acknowledging not labeling, I'm acknowledging this about you. There's an assumption that I'm telling you that's all you have to be. You can't do anything else, you have to just be here, do this, think this way, you are this way, so you're not allowed out of that box. And and again, the pendulum, right because, well, because, things have changed, I'll control at that point and the fact the fact that because my wife is um.

Speaker 2: 3:19:14

She's certainly a feminist um, what?

Speaker 1: 3:19:18

what does it mean today?

Speaker 2: 3:19:19

so I can understand, like, what that means well, and I can only speak for what I know about her and how she projects that yeah, well, that's what I know is your, your, her opinion?

Speaker 1: 3:19:32

I really, because I most. Is it weird that most feminists don't want to talk to me?

Speaker 2: 3:19:39

no, no, um. Well, and because I think partly, at least from what I'm aware of, that that, uh, my experience with a lot of women in feminism, um, is the acknowledgement of what is versus how you feel or think about what is right Denial of truth and reality. Yes, sure, Um, but the the difference between saying I am capable of this versus this is how all women should be. That's not the same thing.

Speaker 1: 3:20:22

Not even close.

Speaker 2: 3:20:23

Right. So I know my wife certainly. I haven't asked her to define it or anything but everything I hear her talking about and acknowledging number one from a political perspective representation, and how so many men are making decisions about women and there's not enough women making decisions for women. Well, that's power.

Speaker 1: 3:20:51

We're talking about power, not, I mean, this is where the feminist stuff starts to fall apart's. I try to understand what the reason for it is. Is it because they want more power, or they want more equality, or they want more rights? To be fair, like I'm trying to understand what the what's the feminist view from your wife. I don't, I don't know what it is well, if like if there's legislation she believes in feminism because and I don't know what's the because all right.

Speaker 2: 3:21:21

well, um, as I, as I have viewed, feminism is being on the side of of women choosing to do what they want with their life, whether that is stay at home, in the kitchen and traditional, you know, be a housewife and raise kids, or work and do that, or only work and not have kids. Sure, um, as opposed to being told what you have to do.

Speaker 1: 3:21:49

Right. So so do women not have the right now to choose, like I want to work, or I want to have kids, or I want to stay home, like do they not have that? Yeah, so then then? What is she? What is she like? I stand for this if it it's already like that well, because there's plenty of people who stand against that well, who's winning that one? Because she has her own business and is doing it so sure. Who's telling her she can't do?

Speaker 2: 3:22:14

the things she's already doing. Well, I mean, it's not like someone's standing there going, hey you, you're not allowed to do that that's what I'm asking is like who's the opposition?

Speaker 1: 3:22:23

Because they're not doing a good job, because she has her own business and she's doing what she wants. So which rights do women not have? That need to like they need to fix the rights because they don't have the same rights that men have?

Speaker 2: 3:22:37

Which rights are the ones that we're talking about I'll just skew to the big one, which is legislation about, uh, what women can do with their bodies like in what way?

Speaker 1: 3:22:47

like dance or like what do you mean? Abortion? How's that okay? Well, what's the legislation that there's? Like the fight for that one? What's? On like saying you can't well, I'm just wondering what's, what's the fight first, because it's not my opinion. I'm just wondering like all right, so well it's I.

Speaker 2: 3:23:03

I have the. The acknowledgement is I, as a woman, have a right to make decisions based on my health and my family and what my body has control over. Because it's my body, because men have the right to do that, um something, uh. An example would be um, we're obviously familiar with viagra. Most people are okay. Um, did you know how viagra started? Like what?

Speaker 1: 3:23:33

it was initially tested for. No, I have no idea so it was initially I don't subscribe to it, so I don't. It's not my thing um it.

Speaker 2: 3:23:42

It was initially um a uh, and I want to make sure that I get this right. Um, so please fact check me. Anyone listening if? If this is not the case, but I I know it had something to do with either heart medication or or something to do with the circulatory system for women, specifically because it was a. It was for their biology and it was discovered that it actually it does what it does for men.

Speaker 2: 3:24:11

And that whole research was just scrapped because they knew they could sell it as a, as a penis as a yeah, penis and uh, you know, you get boners, you get boners, there you go, yeah and because that, uh, you know, things like, um, women are encouraged to get their tubes tied, um, and, and I will say, vasectomies are on the rise, and I appreciate that because it's I have, and I I've done episodes of the podcast about it, um, so it's it's the ongoing pushback of those rights that are then connected to be candid with me, because it, like it, gets cryptic in this.

Speaker 1: 3:25:00

What is the thing that she says? This is what women should do? Like what's the fight on this one? Because, like it's her body, so she should be able to just have an abortion whenever she wants. Like what's the fight?

Speaker 2: 3:25:08

I don't know well, sure if it's, if yeah, basically, I get to choose what to do with my body okay now this is.

Speaker 1: 3:25:16

This is the argument. This is just me being like I don't pick a side, I'm just going to be as objective as possible. Okay, is the baby inside of her, her body?

Speaker 2: 3:25:26

up to a certain point, yeah okay, well, they're connected.

Speaker 1: 3:25:30

But I mean, like, is that baby not designed to be an independent creature at some point, at some point? At some point? At some point, at some point, it would be right and so to say it's my body, my choice. Well, it's still a child, it's still yours and you're a dad.

Speaker 2: 3:25:49

So at what point is that not your kid?

Speaker 1: 3:25:50

Well, and this is where, Like if you leave it alone, it'll be your child. Sure, that's your kid. It'll be your child. Sure, that's your kid. That'll be your child and you would be responsible for that kid. You would be a father.

Speaker 2: 3:26:04

Well, why don't you get a say? This is not my body. That baby is not her body.

Speaker 1: 3:26:09

It's still your child, you're still a father. I'll give it to you this way. Here's the argument for the my body thing and I will say, on my opinion it's total bullshit. Like, here's why I have a guy who's a friend of mine and he's like if me and my wife were together and she's four months pregnant with my child and I want to be a good dad, I am looking forward to fatherhood, and she just decides one day she's just I don't want to be married to you and I don't want to be with you anymore.

Speaker 1: 3:26:33

She can just go and kill my baby. Just go and kill my son or daughter. Just go do that because she wants to and I have no say. But I want to be a father and I look forward to being a father and I'm made to be a good dad. And she can just go and just take my kid and kill my child. She can just go do that. Just go and just take my kid and kill my child. She can just go do that. He should have no say. And if she has the baby to a guy who didn't want a child, there's still child support. So why is that there? If they can just choose to go, we just want to kill this kid. I don't. This is where I go, like why is that such a like? I need that. I need that choice.

Speaker 2: 3:27:17

Because it is where I go like. Why is that such like I need that? I need that choice because it's not just number one, it's not just about I don't want this child because most of it is 99.

Speaker 1: 3:27:27

No, no, not even close are you kidding me? You're gonna tell me most abortions are. For what purpose then?

Speaker 2: 3:27:33

Most abortions are for medical necessity.

Speaker 1: 3:27:38

Wrong, I will do. Give me you, give me any report that says a majority are a medical issue. It was, it was. It was less than 1%. Where those extremes that people would like?

Speaker 2: 3:27:51

And I'm not talking about medical issue Like.

Speaker 1: 3:27:53

I'm talking about not the majority that like stillborn and those kinds of things. Those were not the majority of abortions.

Speaker 2: 3:28:00

So you're just talking about I'm. There's nothing wrong. I'm choosing Correct. I want the right to just say I don't want it.

Speaker 1: 3:28:09

My body I'm not talking about if there's, if there's something that's like the baby is dead in the womb or something has gone catastrophically wrong and the mother is in danger in the first or second trimester, like the mom's going to die, that's not the same. Not the same as going I don't want this fucking kid, not the same. So let's go with the ones who want the choice. Not they need the choice to go Fuck this kid. I don't want that shit. Let's go with those ones who want to have the power of my body, my choice, because it's not the majority that's having a life or death issue. So let's just go with the ones who I want the power.

Speaker 2: 3:28:50

Okay.

Speaker 1: 3:28:51

That's the one. So if we want the right, well, how come dad doesn't get a say to a healthy child being born?

Speaker 2: 3:29:00

Because you have to counteract someone else's autonomy to do it.

Speaker 1: 3:29:05

No, listen, you guys made a decision to do make baby things. Make baby is a byproduct of make baby things, sure, so you wanted to do Viagra and now you guys have a baby coming. So that's the byproduct. That's how it went right. So the byproduct then would be we both made this decision. We both should decide how this goes okay, let me be clear, really clear.

Speaker 2: 3:29:30

Okay, I'm not saying that an interaction and a conversation shouldn't be had, but it doesn't have.

Speaker 1: 3:29:38

There's an acknowledgement but it doesn't have to be correct and that's why I don't agree. Is you're a good dad? You should have a say on who kills your baby so you think that conversations between couples should be legislated? I don't, I didn't say legislated, but I think that if there's going to be something that says like hey, I'm going to do this, I think the father should also have some sort of say in it I don't disagree with you with regard to I don't think, I don't think she should just go get an abortion without dad knowing so what you're saying is you, regardless of of whether that's ethically okay, because I, I, I think anyone who does that is yeah, that's horrible.

Speaker 1: 3:30:23

I'm not getting into laws, I'm getting into ethics on it. I think that the ethics of it because I'm not, I'm not also pro, like remove the option I'm I'm. You know, I wrote a book called everything is a choice. So I'm not saying no choice, but I am saying the way that it's done is fucked up well, this is why this is why I wanted clarity, because what I'm arguing for is the legislation.

Speaker 1: 3:30:46

It should not be legislated that you have to do things this way they have it to where I think the the closest one is 15 weeks, up to 15 weeks, until you start getting to where, like, that's turning into a baby dude Like, and the argument for pro-choice is we're like as long as it's in the womb. Well, I've had my nephew. He was a miracle child. He was born at like six months in and they had to put him in NICU and he survived by miracle standards. Well, if a lady's at seven or eight months or eight and a half months in and just like, fuck this, let's grind this baby up, and they're like, yeah, go for it. The only difference between my nephew at six months and that kid at eight months is location.

Speaker 2: 3:31:27

And the reason why that argument doesn't not to say again there's a spectrum. There's always exceptions, but the vast majority happened long before that, where it's just a clump of cells.

Speaker 1: 3:31:39

Agreed. Well, even still, a clump of cells would be life on Mars, and so, like that's still, going to be a human being. Have you ever killed a bacteria?

Speaker 1: 3:31:48

Again you're getting into is it right or wrong to kill? I don't give a fuck, I'm pro give a fuck, I'm pro kill shit. But I am saying if you're taking dads right away from something that would be your son or daughter simply because I fucking say so, I don't agree with that. You're a good dad. And if somebody said you're not going to get that daughter because I said so, that I don't agree with, I think that dad should have a fucking say I don't disagree with you, by the way, I just don't think it should be legislated well, how do you?

Speaker 1: 3:32:20

what's the? So I've worked the abortion thing down. There's just so you know. Nobody can ever win this. Everyone's a loser with abortion, everyone. I don't give a shit if you do my body, my choice.

Speaker 1: 3:32:30

If you want to be super christian and have like the picket sign which I I don't agree with all that shit either Go ahead and sign the thing that says I know I'm killing a kid, I'll talk to God when I get there. Like that's all they want is acknowledgement. You want to try and use the Bible and tell people what they can and can't do. Where you're not a Christian, then, because Jesus says don't do that shit, yeah, yeah. So that's not Christian. That's just you being an asshole. That's a different thing altogether. But you can go ahead and acknowledge that this clump of cells, if left unattended, will become a human being. That's going to fucking happen. So, yes, you're killing a baby, that's you're doing that. So at least, yeah, I'm killing a baby. I'll deal with God when I get there.

Speaker 1: 3:33:07

I chose that. I get it. My choice, my game. Fair enough, you've got it. Go ahead and do what you're going to do. That's your choice. Own it later. It's not my judgment. You do whatever you're fucking going to do. Fine, that group is now acknowledged. We got you, they signed it. They say yeah, I know I'm doing that shit, I'm killing a baby. We're doing it, alright.

Speaker 2: 3:33:25

I wouldn't say it like that, but that's what you're going to destroying a tree when you destroy an acorn.

Speaker 1: 3:33:35

Yeah, listen, leave it alone. It'll become a fucking tree, and then you cut that shit down and make a house. You're making people Again. There's souls involved right now, and this is what we're talking about. Okay, so that is belief right, you believe?

Speaker 2: 3:33:48

people have souls, and animals and trees and plants don't. I believe animals do too maybe, maybe trees do.

Speaker 1: 3:33:54

It's not my call though that's not my department is to say whose soul is what value.

Speaker 3: 3:33:57

That's not my job, but to say there is no value the argument here is there is no win by the way.

Speaker 1: 3:34:03

You're killing a fucking baby, that's just it. And someone going it's my call, I get to do it. You're still killing a fucking baby, that's you're fucking doing that. I don't care what you call it. Is it my call this? We just we disagree. That's fine. But if you're that's a fucking baby, it will be a baby. That's you can, I will. But this is justification again, like this is justifying that I'm doing an action on purpose. That accountability, have the accountability. I'm not saying you shouldn't have the call, I'm just saying don't call it. What it's not like it is that it is a baby it.

Speaker 1: 3:34:36

That's going to be a fucking baby, or else you wouldn't be getting an abortion right, but by your own definition, as you, it will be, that's gonna be a baby. You guys did shit that makes it's not.

Speaker 1: 3:34:46

Now you mix by that statement saying it's not now, it will be this is where you're doing the semantics to make it so you remove accountability, and this is where I have to disagree with these arguments. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but I am saying being a liar isn't correct. So that's where it's different. If we found cells on Mars that, if you leave unattended, would create a creature, that would still be life on Mars. But if you have life in a womb, it's not life on Earth, it's bullshit Like that part I don't agree with. We're hypocritical at this point. Now I'm still pro-choice. Do whatever the fuck you want. I am saying don't be a liar about it, though At least call it. I'm doing the action that wouldn't prevent a baby. That's what I'm doing. That's the whole purpose of the procedure is to prevent a baby. That's what it does. If I'm not wrong on that, then please correct me.

Speaker 2: 3:35:41

But abortion is to stop a baby.

Speaker 1: 3:35:43

That's what we're doing To stop the eventual baby yes, that's going to be a human. Like we have to stop a human from being a human, we have to stop that. That's, if I unhuman you right now, it's called murder. So like I'd be killing you, that's still that and that's just what it is. That's not me being. I'm not saying right or wrong. I'm just saying, like, call it what it is.

Speaker 2: 3:36:03

That's just that, and I'm I'm going to leave it at this because, like you said, there's no winner here.

Speaker 1: 3:36:10

Nobody wins, everybody loses. If you're pro-choice, we don't have enough spaces for the kids that are unwanted. That doesn't work. And if we're pro-abortion, at least be honest with what you're doing. That's all I'm saying. Go ahead and do whatever. You can have 12 abortions if you want to. That's not my call. That's you with big guns upstairs. You guys talk it out. I don't care what you guys do. From my perspective, you're stopping something, you're not killing something. There's a difference. What's the difference? What's the difference? Yeah, please, what's the difference? If I'm, if I'm gonna grind up, what's gonna be a baby? Well, what is it? What do you call it? Making soup or something? What do you call it?

Speaker 2: 3:36:47

I don't know well, no, if, if you have, okay, if I, if I scrape the inside of my cheek and put that under a microscope, that's, living cells there are, right, right. And if I were to manipulate those cells and put in a petri dish, I could potentially grow like bacteria or something, sure? Well, no, your own human cells there's, there's potential for me oh, you can clone, all right okay right, that in essence is uh, it's not a clone, obviously, but it's, it's a dual.

Speaker 2: 3:37:15

Uh, you know, one part of one person, another part of another person, a new person, right, it's the biological, natural equivalent of artificially cloned.

Speaker 1: 3:37:26

All right, but if you just leave it alone, is that going to turn into another person? Yeah. You think so, if you just take bacteria and put it in a Petri dish and leave it alone and it makes a baby. That doesn't do that. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. You have to do a whole bunch of other stuff to it to make it start doing that.

Speaker 2: 3:37:39

Well, sure.

Speaker 1: 3:37:40

CRISPR is probably involved, which is what the woman's body does when it's in there. That's amazing, fucking incredible, if it's a fucking miracle of nature that even happens. It's incredible. But if you're going to tell me that Petri dish is, it doesn't matter or whatever I'm going to be like, well, I don't agree with you. I didn't say that she can't choose.

Speaker 1: 3:38:07

Go kill as many babies as you want. That's you. It's not my judgment. I don't give a fuck, I don't care. Do it Whatever you want to do, I just you're still doing it to get rid of a baby. That's what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 3:38:18

And the thing I'm disagreeing about is you can have your opinion in your, your uh acknowledgements and, and you do Um, but to say that it is only this and it can't be anything else.

Speaker 1: 3:38:35

I'm open to hear what you say. It's clump of cells. That's that's that's going to be. A baby like that would, if left unattended, you have a human being like that's what it does. That's what that's how procreation works.

Speaker 2: 3:38:45

Absolutely so, that's all I'm saying is is if you want, to call something different to feel better.

Speaker 1: 3:38:50

It's again. Just so you can be very clear with me, I'm not taking anything away from anybody. Go ahead and do 1,200, 1,500 of these, I don't care, you guys can do whatever you want. I think dad should have a say, because it's his fucking kid too, and I think that it should be something where, like you know, I'll knock the Christian group off or the radical church groups. Let them take it up with God. That's their argument. It's not your argument. They can do as many as they want. It's up to them. That's their thing. That's fine, no problem, go ahead. I'm not taking a choice away from anybody. You can have all the choice you want.

Speaker 1: 3:39:26

Do I think it should be beyond the second trimester or even into second trimester? We're grinding the kid up at this point Like that is a kid. That's again. It looks like a fucking kid. It's going to be. That's not a fucking cells, that's a human and that is a different situation, which is fine. Go do as many abortions as you want. I just think that's what they say. In the first 15 weeks I was like Texas and a few other States were like in the first 15 weeks. Go ahead and do your shit.

Speaker 2: 3:40:01

Just when it's a fuck, it got fingers and shit. You're not going to tell me it's clump of cells, that's a kid. Are you assuming that? And again, always exceptions, right. Are you assuming that women just reach uh, uh, you know, second or third trimester and just like, ah, fuck it, I don't want this kid anymore, and then have an?

Speaker 1: 3:40:08

abortion. This is where the argument is is. Where's the line then? This is why the abortion argument has been so fucked is nobody goes. It's right. Here's the line then. This is why the abortion argument has been so fucked is nobody goes. It's right.

Speaker 2: 3:40:16

Here's the line yeah, of course, because, it's again, it's a subjective thing, that's why it's a mess.

Speaker 1: 3:40:23

Nobody wants. We're killing babies no matter what here.

Speaker 2: 3:40:25

That's it that's what it's for, even acknowledging the, the religious view, even even in the, the old testament they're talking about, the baby doesn't exist until it takes its first breath. It's not alive until then. Yeah, so it goes. It goes all the way back to that. What's? What is the subjective truth or the objective truth?

Speaker 1: 3:40:45

there isn't one, so just so soon as in the wound, you can just go ahead and just that's not a baby until it's out. So that's like eight, eight and a half months. That's not a baby, that's not my view. That's what I mean by the ethics of it. I'm like you're fucking crazy. You're grinding a baby up because my nephew was a baby at six months out. An eight month old baby, just because it's not born, is not not a human.

Speaker 2: 3:41:07

Take it out, that becomes a person and it, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's just going to go back and forth and around and around. But that's what I mean. We believe different things.

Speaker 1: 3:41:17

Well, I'm actually not disagreeing with you. I just don't agree with not calling it what it is. That's the only part of this I don't agree with. I didn't say no choice. Go ahead and have your choice, absolutely and I hear you on that.

Speaker 1: 3:41:31

I'm like well, which? Which month is the one? When do you? When do you go like that You're just grinding a kid up at this point? When's the month where you go like it's not? You're getting rid of the cells before it turns into a baby, which is going to be a fucking baby Like this is the part where it's not. It's not as detrimental to the mother because you're not grinding up a person inside of you. At what point is that line? Well, it's 14 or 15 weeks and then you know you're, you're there, is the. It's showing. Now you're doing something that affects the mother in a very, very detrimental way. That starts to matter too. I'm like well, that counts. You're going to be doing a pretty terrible thing in you. That's a. That's a rough deal. Well, it doesn't count because it's the. It doesn't count because part. That gets me confused.

Speaker 2: 3:42:14

Well, there's no yeah, and I don't. I'm certainly not arguing that it doesn't count.

Speaker 1: 3:42:19

Well, you said it's not a life.

Speaker 2: 3:42:21

I didn't say it wasn't a life. I said it wasn't a baby.

Speaker 1: 3:42:24

That's all I'm saying is, it's still a life you are taking, that's it. You can call it wherever it is. Now I'm not saying don't do it, I it. I'm just saying don't call what is not it. I'm taking a life, I'll take it up with god and then I can choose up to this point to be able to have this procedure absolutely go ahead and fucking do whatever you're gonna do, it's not my call not my call not my call.

Speaker 1: 3:42:44

Do whatever the fuck you want you're. You're grinding up a kid, that's what you're doing. Do whatever the fuck you want. It's your, it's your. You gotta take it up with big guns later. That's's not me and that's not even my call. I don't make that call. I'm just not my call.

Speaker 2: 3:42:57

I'm just no, I know, but you're continuing to put that you're. You're continuing to say you can do whatever you want. You're still grinding up a baby. And that's right, that's what you're saying, it is. Doesn't mean it is enough.

Speaker 1: 3:43:15

We'll leave it at that. This is where the like, the. I'm just curious what we call you like? Well, it's only cells. I'm like it's still alive. You're calling, you're grinding, you're grinding up that's gonna be a kid. Well, and I also but don't, don't get me wrong, don't think that if, like the pro lifers, if you think I'm going pro life, listen, let me give you. Let me give you a different perspective.

Speaker 2: 3:43:29

I'm not. I'm not pro life either.

Speaker 1: 3:43:30

We don't have a place for all these fucking kids and like there's a bunch of really shit parents out here that we work with that are like hey, you're not good. Parents like you're fucking your kid the fuck up. That kid's gonna be a maniac who steals cars and gets girls pregnant, just so they get abortions. Fuck you, dude. Like they're shit people too.

Speaker 2: 3:43:46

So I'm not saying just because you're born, you're gonna be great so I think the argument that yeah, no, and I hear you, I hear you fuck some of these assholes who were born too.

Speaker 1: 3:43:55

I'm not saying that so I don't.

Speaker 2: 3:44:01

I don't want to launch into something else, I just just the acknowledgement of I did. I had no interest in getting here at all either.

Speaker 1: 3:44:08

This wasn't even our thing.

Speaker 2: 3:44:09

We don't even work in this field no, have your wife, come on, she'll explain it to me oh yes, you will, and she'll do a much better job that would be great.

Speaker 1: 3:44:18

I would be okay with that well, and it's I.

Speaker 2: 3:44:22

I'll just, I'll say this the idea of saying this is from inception. This is wrong, wrong or this is murder or you're killing a baby, no matter what.

Speaker 1: 3:44:43

Well, what's the problem with that? What's the problem with it?

Speaker 2: 3:44:49

If that's what I want to do, what's the problem with it? Well, it depends on your definition of no.

Speaker 1: 3:44:53

No, I'm asking what's the problem?

Speaker 2: 3:44:54

Me personally.

Speaker 1: 3:44:55

If I'm saying it's within the first 15 weeks, it's clump of cell and I want to kill it. Like well, it's killing a baby, but what's the problem with that's what I want to do. And if it's legal, go ahead and do it. I mean, spartans used to throw deformed kids off of fucking mountains, sure, like so I'm listen, I'm not telling you, I'm right, I'm just saying well, why are we calling it what we're calling it? If it, what do you? What is it then? Like it's the semantics of the argument that make it so it's not supposed to be one. And I'm like, fine, call killing a kid, but go, that's on you, like that's still you're just, you gotta own it at some point. That's what you're doing. And I didn't say don't do it, I just don't agree with it. But I can't necessarily agree with let them all live either, because where the fuck are we doing with all these unwanted kids? I don't fucking know. There's no win, nobody wins, it's all losing. So there's no win here.

Speaker 1: 3:45:43

Maybe make the abortions or the adoption system way better. That needs to improve by a thousand fold, you know, maybe that would work, maybe so, like the parents right now, and there's a huge number of parents who cannot conceive Make it so good. Parents have the option to take these kids If both parents mom and dad do not want a child. Give that kid a chance to somebody who does. But they made the adoption process like 20, 30 grand and jumped through 50 hoops. Well, you guys didn't have to do 20, 30 grand in hoops, we just humped. Yeah, listen, give the people who want to do a good job a chance to make that easier for them. And that's where there's problems. On that end too, there's no win this thing.

Speaker 2: 3:46:29

Hopefully doesn't win. Yeah, and, like I said, we're just going to keep going around in circles, so I'll leave it. I think we agree to disagree.

Speaker 1: 3:46:38

That's where we're at. I just don't agree with you call it, but I'm actually I'm probably more on your side with what to do. I just don't agree with what we're calling it. That's all. We're calling different things.

Speaker 2: 3:46:55

The other factor is the physical experience that the woman has to go through, Whereas that that's a heavier decision for her than it is for the guy.

Speaker 1: 3:46:59

I want a child. That choice was before, when you were having the sex, so why?

Speaker 2: 3:47:04

do you think?

Speaker 1: 3:47:04

why do you think hypergamy exists? The? The reason hypergamy exists is men can spread seed and women have to harbor it. That's why hypergamy is a part of our system. It's. It exists because women have to be more selective with their mates than men do. They have to. That's been from all existence, even fucking nature, with mating, dances and shit. We have to be selective with our partners. Women have to. Men can get 50 girls pregnant. Women can only have one pregnancy at a time. We have to choose the best mate for the kid's livelihood. That's where the choice is at. Am I saying women should never have sex? I can have all the sex you want. Do I believe in the contraceptives and shit? Do whatever you want with that shit, but if you're doing sex and then you have a kid, I hope you picked a good mate, because that's what that does. And so that's the choice part. She has freedom of choice. Now the people who argue what about the girls who were raped? Fine, if you were raped, guaranteed free pass. It's less than 1%. Fine, free pass. Let's go with the large number of. I just don't want it. Those ones healthy, don't want it. Ones you guys.

Speaker 1: 3:48:13

The choice part for what that's going to do to your body was when you decided to fuck that dude. That was you had an option. You were like, yeah, let's do this dude. That was the choice part. That's where you did it. Now again, I'm not saying you shouldn't get it, I'm just call it like when we fucked, we're making a kid now and we have to do a procedure to have no child. That's all it is. That's what we're doing.

Speaker 1: 3:48:34

So the choice, your body is important. You need to value your body. You need to make sure that this doesn't the toll it will take on your body. Well, that's before you let the dude fuck you with no condom. That's that point. That was when you. That was when that. That decision for our ladies, that's the point where ladies need to make that decision distinct. This is important. This matters Valuing my body in a way to make it so you're not just coming inside of me. That's important. That's a whole decision process. There's multiple strokes involved. There's a whole decision process that has to happen for this. Well, that's when you. I agree, I agree with the importance of that decision. For sure, that was the part you picked.

Speaker 2: 3:49:13

That was the pick part. That's when you I agree. I agree with the importance of that decision for sure.

Speaker 1: 3:49:16

That was the part you picked. That was the pick part. That's when you're like your body, your choice. You decided to have this dude come in you.

Speaker 2: 3:49:22

That was your body, your choice, you chose so what you're arguing for is the what, the function of a natural process once it's initiated. It's not regardless of who goes through what. It's wrong to stop it.

Speaker 1: 3:49:43

I didn't say wrong. I just said stop lying. I didn't say right or wrong. I just said don't lie about it. That's probably my official stance. Yeah, go ahead and do it. Pro-choice. I'm still pro-choice. Choose whatever you want. I don't think after the second trimester you should grind kids up. I don't believe that. But I'm not going to stop you either. So like, go ahead and do whatever you want. That's your thing. But if you're going to call it not killing thing other than that I'm not actually in any legislative way to you, go ahead and do it you have the right do your rights.

Speaker 1: 3:50:24

Feminism do your rights. I didn't take a right away, I just said I don't think it's called that fair enough. Yeah again, yeah. So again. It's just fun, it's fun conversation, but like that's it. I only disagree with what we're calling it.

Speaker 2: 3:50:41

You can do whatever you want no, and and that's the part that I you have every right to, to label it or call it where you want to call it.

Speaker 1: 3:50:51

Well, the rights are still the same, so you could do it or not. Do it.

Speaker 2: 3:50:53

Either way, I didn't, I'm not changing anything about it, and going back to the very beginning of why this came up, that that is the.

Speaker 1: 3:51:01

That is the point, is the whatever legislation exists and the pushing of that legislation to limit that choice sure, yeah, like I said, I this that's one of the most controversial topics that I don't think there's a win on either side. I don't think either side is correct, just so you know.

Speaker 2: 3:51:23

like, I'm not recording stopped.

Speaker 1: 3:51:24

Oh shit, I just ran out of space. Well, looks, I'm still recording on our sound thing, but no, no, this was. I'm just going to tell you, chris, I I honor and appreciate you. This is fun like there's no debt, no negativity, no downside, no bad talk, none of this stuff. I think you're wonderful, dude, so no, and I appreciate that. I like this was fine this is, this is my longest podcast.

Speaker 1: 3:51:46

It's four hours. I I'll be very open with you. I fucking loved it like this was great. This was really fun to me. So, um, just in case anybody's listening to this, I'm like these two got some bad blood. I fucking adore you, dude.

Speaker 2: 3:51:57

I think you're wonderful. I think you're wonderful, absolutely. This was great, thank you. Thank you, and I all the respect to you as well. I I I thought this was a very potent conversation. We talked about a lot of shit, we talked about shit, so not even our shit yes, yes, and and I I'm kind of bummed about that, not that you know, because there could have been other stuff we talked about it just it's not to say that as you said it's.

Speaker 2: 3:52:24

you know stuff that's just never going to be resolved because of agree to disagree type stuff, and I think ongoing conversations like that that will never resolve are better had around the campfire type of thing, or you know the podcast is fine.

Speaker 1: 3:52:40

I'll be open with you if we want to cut it out. It doesn't hurt my feelings, it doesn't bother me at all. Okay, cool. So, in which case, this discord is highly valuable to me and so, like I said, I'm not going to go like that guy's a fucking idiot. No, I think that you're great dude, I love the conversation and like even just we're supposed to disagree. That's totally fine with me. I just want to understand your point and I just don't agree with certain things. But you don't agree with certain things with me. Well, that's good, and I think that's the point. If there's something they took away from this is like you can still have conversations, you don't agree and still be cool that's actually my favorite part about it.

Speaker 2: 3:53:14

And and the fact that I am in a place where I've done enough work on myself and I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't have to agree with you and, oh yeah, and we can still actually enjoy each other's company and I'll get the next round, chris, I'll be like I got the next round you're fucking maniac.

Speaker 3: 3:53:32

I got the next round like yeah, you're fucking guy, get out of here. You're a fucking maniac. I got the next round.

Speaker 2: 3:53:35

You're a fucking guy, get out of here, You're a fucking guy All right, brother, it's an honor.

Speaker 1: 3:53:38

We're still recording audio at this point. So I do think there's a lot of value in what you're doing and I do believe that your personality type to help guys with what that is is highly necessary, and so if any of the guys who are listening to this conversation aside from certain parts of it, but they're like I really like what this guy's doing, I like his style, I like the way he does it I do encourage you to reach out. How do they do it, chris?

Speaker 2: 3:54:05

You know, and it's funny, I was going to get into this and try not to make it long winded. Um, I had a website going for a while and you know, working on a whole funnel situation, everything like that, and then getting into being a stay-at-home dad. It was just, it wasn't a priority and so I'm just bare bones in it. So I have an email address and I have a number that you can call. You leave a message or uh, leave an email. And the email address is actually my tiktok handle, which is dadding underscore daily. But the email address is dadding daily. 1980 at gmail, nice and simple, d-a-d-d-i-n-g, d-a-i-l-y. 1980. The numbers at gmail, uh, and the number.

Speaker 1: 3:54:48

Oh no, no, don't do the phone number. Don't do the phone number. We'll put it. We'll put it in your bios and the links and stuff, but you will have an 8-6-7-5-3-0-9 scenario. Fair enough.

Speaker 2: 3:55:00

So no, we'll put your link in the bio for people. It's a separate business line anyway. Oh, okay, that's different. It's not my direct line. Oh my God, I'm like dude, you're going to blow your cell phone to pieces.

Speaker 1: 3:55:12

Oh dude, no, I'd't do that.

Speaker 2: 3:55:14

No, it's purposely set up.

Speaker 1: 3:55:16

Okay, good, okay, your business line, please Go ahead. Okay, I'm like no, don't get fucked up.

Speaker 2: 3:55:23

Oh God, no, please, no, dude. I've been in business long enough to know not to do that.

Speaker 1: 3:55:27

Fair enough Good.

Speaker 2: 3:55:30

Okay, so the number to call would be 323-524-8193. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:55:39

All right, brother. It's been fun, man, being open with you. I'd love to do another one. I'd love to have you on again. This was a lot of fun and also, if anybody has made it to this point, you're a fucking legend, because you just spent four hours with us, and so you either love us or hate us, or both. Either way, thanks for hanging out this long on the battlefield of mine, so way to go, brother.

Speaker 2: 3:56:02

Thanks for having me man. Yeah, I really appreciate it.