126. Crafting Authentic Spaces in a World of Superficiality with Mindfulness Expert Chris Gritti

Ever wondered why simply acknowledging someone's feelings isn't quite enough? Together with mindfulness coach Chris Gritti, we delve into the complex emotions of validation and empathy, uncovering their pivotal roles in emotional support. Chris and I challenge the trend of meme therapy and superficial self-help, advocating instead for a more meaningful and empathetic approach to navigating life's rollercoaster. Join us for a heartfelt conversation that promises to enrich your understanding of relationships, the power of 'no', and the nuances of communication that can either fortify or fracture our connections with those around us.

The landscape of self-improvement is often fraught with mirages of authenticity and false empowerment, especially within the self-help industry. In this episode, Chris and I scrutinize the shadowy corners of personal development seminars, examining the difference between momentary highs and lasting change. We share candid insights on the fine line between genuine enthusiasm and cult-like fervor in sales pitches, questioning the ethics of manufacturing empowerment. The discussion extends to the transformative nature of relationships, the impact of gender dynamics, and the vital role that love languages play in harmonizing our most cherished connections.

Lastly, our hearts turn to the sanctuary we strive to create for the next generation. We explore the art of parenting, emphasizing the importance of safe spaces for children to grow and learn from their mistakes. Reflecting on personal growth, we illustrate the value of guiding with understanding rather than judgment, and the profound influence this approach has on our children's journey to adulthood. As we wrap up, we express our excitement for the exclusive content brewing for our Patreon subscribers, promising to push the envelope even further. So sit back, and allow us to share with you a mosaic of wisdom, anecdotes, and the kind of honest reflections that aim to leave a lasting impression.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

What's up, warriors? Welcome back to the battlefield of the mind. I'm Rick and today I'm here with Chris and we're going to talk about some adventures, but some of you guys we now know who he is. So, chris, let everybody know who you are real quick, and then let's get into some very cool conversations.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Wonderful. Thank you, excited to be here. My name is Chris Gritty.

Speaker 2: 0:32

I'm a mindfulness coach, though I use the term very loosely. I'm not one that likes to have the vibe of any kind of ambulance chasing lawyer, and monetizing empathy and mindfulness can be very paradoxical. So I like to make as much content as I can, I like to share as much information as I can, but for the most part I mean I have had clients, but I'm not really actively coaching very many people because the few that I have spend some time and then they're you know, they're good and, and you know what I mean, and it's I've had all these wonderful, amicable goodbyes. But I also don't believe that I need to have repeat customers, like if you're good, you know, and they hit me up every once in a while. I, you know, I've probably got about 40 or 50 people that you know will text me, but it's like once a month and you know it's something that bothers them and usually it's at that point it's just like I feel you, you know, cause there's not always going to be some sort of solution or answer. Sometimes validation is just really what people need to know. They're not crazy and you know it's, it's not hard to give that, as long as you've established a comfortable relationship.

Speaker 2: 1:46

So I'm a big fan of doing even this kind of thing. I would do more podcasts and you name it. I'm a broke artist and I am, you know. I just I am what I am. So I got a website that's still got its duct tape and super glue holding up for a couple of more weeks. Uh, but you know, that's, that's who I am. I got a bunch of followers on tiktok, but what does that even mean?

Speaker 1: 2:09

so yeah, people know you, you're kind of a big deal. Yeah, no, I think it's really cool. I actually want to jump into something that I think that you and I can team up on right now. The term validating somebody, or validating somebody's emotions, I think, has been bastardized today because people are using meme therapy instead of understanding. People are using meme therapy instead of understanding. Can you help me when I say you're saying like no, sometimes people just need to feel heard and validated.

Speaker 2: 2:39

What does that mean? When we experience, let's say, an unpleasant scenario, when something unexpected happens, we experience loss, it could be on a grand scale or a microscopic scale, but it irritates us. There's the old-fashioned way of saying suck it up, man up, walk it up bootstraps, all that jazz. But when we talk about validation, it's to not counter, to not stand in any form of opposition to what's being presented, to just receive and understand. And that's the step that most of us want taken first. Before we get the. You're going to have to suck it up or you're going to have to get through this, or whatever it is. We need to sit with it and process our emotions. And, as I'm sure you know, our emotions don't work on a time clock Like we, no matter how impatient we are.

Speaker 2: 3:40

When you're angry, you can't just shut it off. In fact, I've found it's really unhealthy too. But if you can say like if I called you up and I'm like I'm angry, you know, and you'd be like, yeah, I'd be angry too, and then you just sit there with me, you know what I mean Like you're not countering it, you're acknowledging it. You're not even telling me to calm down. That is when you become a supportive energy. Right, you're standing alongside someone, not against them, and that's really what I believe fundamentally. It means to validate someone. There's a lot of places you can go after that, and that's really what I believe fundamentally. It means to validate someone. There's a lot of places you can go after that, and there's not everybody that understands how to receive it very well. Sometimes people are angry and they want way more than validation and they don't even know it because they're in that fight or flight, desperation, drowning kind of space energy wise. But to me that's what validation really is learning to not be in opposition to what someone's presenting to you.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Gotcha. So I got a question here because you said to not counter them, don't oppose them, receive them, understand where they're coming from. What is the difference then between, like your definition for validation and acknowledgement? I mean, we're splitting hairs, you know. I think it's important because this has become weaponized and so I want to make sure it's used correctly. The hair the semantics seem to destroy marriages, so I want to make sure, yeah, we're using this right devil's in the details, right like it's.

Speaker 2: 5:10

That's where that phrase comes from. It's it's all the little things that'll make all the cracks that make it fall apart. But yeah, acknowledgement, uh, versus validation, or what's the difference? I guess I would say validation is one step past acknowledgement. Right, I can acknowledge that you're angry and not give a shit.

Speaker 1: 5:30

That's not validated, so you add empathy to validation.

Speaker 2: 5:34

validation now this is where it gets curious.

Speaker 1: 5:37

Acknowledgement and empathy, equal validation now this is where I think the hairs get necessary to examine is because, like well, if I'm going to offer empathy and you said I'm really upset, and I'm like, well, I was upset one time too, is that empathy?

Speaker 2: 5:55

No, it's acknowledging. That's the hard part. Okay, but that's a counter, see. That's why. That's why it can't be considered validation, because you're countering when I share something with you, I'm not asking you to share something with me. That's the mistake, right? Unless we're going to actually say hey, like you and I are doing here now in a podcast form, let's have a conversation. If I need to vent to you, if I need to express or share something to you, if I need support, that support comes in the form of you receiving what my stress is, by listening and then holding it as well. Now, if you're going to explain to me that you've gone through something similar, all that does is acknowledge you know how I'm feeling, but you're still not carrying it. You're just telling me a story that's from, like you're adding yours now to it. So now I'm carrying yours and you're carrying mine, but I didn't show up to carry yours. And if I'm in a bad state and I need to be helped, asking me to carry yours, at the same time we're not going anywhere.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Like. That's the way it always is. It becomes a. You know what I mean. It's like sometimes it has to be about me and sometimes it has to be about you and sometimes it's going to and like more often than not it's going to be about both of us. But in those times of real leaning on each other for support, the one who's doing the supporting has to get out of the way. Needs wise, and that's a hard thing to do. It really is, depending especially on if you're dating someone and I've been in this myself who is always leaning and they don't like to let go of that leaning energy. So it's like you always have to be there, sort of eating or absorbing. You know it's the sin eater kind of position and that's not healthy. Like it's gotta be balanced and you know it's balanced because you're not feeling an imbalance that's causing you to feel like there's an issue, like there's balance if there's no issues.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Yeah, no, it's tricky about this is, even if the answers are correct, the solutions are difficult to understand, and so, like, you're saying correct words, but it doesn't mean I know how to do it. And that's where you're like, well, it needs to be balanced. I'm like, well, we could probably have a two-hour conversation. Now, what does it mean to be balanced? You know, and like, well, we need to add empathy. You know, like cool. Well, does that mean like hey, I felt, I felt that way too. It's like no, no, and uh, this is where it gets interesting when I watch empathy. Uh, when people use this sentence, we're like oh, you're hurting right now. Well, what about me? And we call that empathy no, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2: 8:33

That's equivalent to and this will sound harsh. That's equivalent to I don't give a fuck correct.

Speaker 1: 8:38

Amando yet is the most common response that I see in our comment section having a bad day.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Let me tell you about my bad day.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Yeah, but what about my day? You know, I'll see a dad who's like you know, I'm good dad's. This dad is having a hard time and the first thing in the comment is well, what about moms? You go like well, you really don't give a shit, do you? Uh, you know this guy's struggling. You're like, yeah, well, what about her? You're like oh well, I guess we don't worry about his struggles.

Speaker 2: 9:04

This isn't the word about ism right. It's the false dichotomy. It's the creating the the this or that scenario. If going to this is the same thing with empathy and sitting, and if I'm, as the guy, going to sit and listen to the woman and she's going to, you know, my partner and she's going to express all these things I'm not doing, what about me's that support? So if we're talking, like, even in a YouTube comment or a TikTok thing or whatever about we're supporting a guy, we're not nullifying the struggle of the other side, we're simply focusing on one right. So guy is struggling, we're focusing on him.

Speaker 2: 9:41

We could have a whole other conversation about her. But having to sit down and talk about him doesn't nullify her and that's that weird, like cognitive dissonance of a false dichotomy. That isn't real right. It's the same thing. If we're going to bash politically on one political person and then somebody goes what about the other person? It's like that is another conversation.

Speaker 2: 10:00

We're not always talking about both. We need to be able to fraction down things so that we can analyze them. We can't always be looking at the whole picture all the time. Now, you know, we do need to look at the whole picture sometimes and that's what real balance comes into. It needs to be all of these things. So men need to be considered, women need to be considered. We could simply, we could even bring that to. Each partner needs to be considered. What is balance? That's going to be the diversity of humanity and we're all different. You just know it's balanced because you feel the balance. The balance like you're, you're on the same team would be the best way that I could describe a state of balance where you genuinely, no matter how much you're fighting, no matter how much anything that's coming out of you, you're not worried that it's over and you know they're not worried that it's over.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Then you're, you're you're somewhere in the balance, even if you're swinging around. Yeah, so we got an interesting stack of things here now, because now we want to feel heard and validated. I also know, in order to be validating, instead of just acknowledging, I have to add empathy, which you know in the words of Eeyore don't get me started and then, and then, when it gets into the well, I think empathy is saying that I also had stuff I went through too and that, like you said, makes it about you and diminishes anything for them. And so this whole concept of balance, to try to become a team, is going to be really, really difficult to do when it's riddled with what about me, instead of what empathy, acknowledgement or validation really is. And so it gets complicated here, because all I wanted you to do is.

Speaker 2: 12:36

just hear me, you know. To add to that because I understand, obviously because I've been guilty per se of that kind of response myself. I don't think anybody is guilt-free on that one, like we all have done it at a younger age, ideally, but some people never learn better. The point is, when you share something with me a personal thing that was traumatic, let's say, and I've had a shared experience or a similar experience to empathize with you, you don't need to know about my personal experience. My personal experience is the fuel or the venue that allows me to step into a closer approximation of how you're feeling and understand If I was to genuinely be empathizing in that moment. That means I know what this feels like. So the next step, thought wise, is what did I need that I didn't get when I was in that scenario? I don't need to explain that I went through this, so they can feel bad for me too. Maybe I can be the thing that never showed up for me, and the reason I know what to be is because I have experience. But all of that stuff is internal, it doesn't need to be expressed, right. So you share all that stuff. I have a shared experience. I think about that and I say do you feel this way now? To see if you went through like that, then you know. Or how does it like? You know? Like, cause, I've been through similar and I felt this way. You don't need the details, I don't need to hand you my freaking stress, I just need to give you enough. That's the key. It's like oversharing when you're listening is basically not listening. If you've had a similar experience, you can say I don't want to get into details, but I okay. So how that affected me was this you don't need to again like remember if you're being there for someone else, it's about them and anything you are presenting is meant to be of assistance to that, not to shift the energy or the focus to you.

Speaker 2: 14:44

And it can be very hard for insecure people to do that. Ooh, shots fired. You know, but I'm also not. I'm not throwing shade with insecurity Like I suffer from it too. Even before we had this thing. I hate. I think it's annoying when we get to these ideas where we have to sort of present this front of strength. No bravery is doing things while afraid, not nullifying fear. So anxiety is a part of your reality. So people who have higher anxiety. It's not to be shamed or guilted on, it's about acknowledging it. I have it too. Doesn't mean it needs to be debilitating, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to special treatment. That's the problem.

Speaker 1: 15:22

Oh man, you're, you're shooting, you're shooting bombs out here on people right now.

Speaker 2: 15:26

Oh man, I could go on for.

Speaker 1: 15:31

Yeah, so the insecurity thing is pretty heavy. The unmet needs very, very important. But then also that anxiety doesn't give you special treatment, dang man.

Speaker 2: 15:40

Well, your emotions are yours right Now. If you and I are friends and I express to you that I'm feeling strong sadness, that doesn't obligate you to do anything right. You're my friend, so you're not here out of obligation to begin with. I'm sharing it with you. You make a choice, you could not care. You could do a lot of things.

Speaker 2: 16:01

So when we share our emotions, this idea that anyone else, anyone else is obligated to do anything about it is an entitlement that's born out of desperation, frustration, anger, trauma. I've been there too. People should care. Ooh, is that a sticky wicket? I wish everyone did care, but we're animals. There is no should when it comes to how people are going to like. You could project as much as you want about objective morality I wish everyone did care, but it doesn't mean there's a should. Should means that there's some sort of objective reality, truth, and there's going to be some police to show up to make that should happen, and I don't see that happening. So there is no real should. And I, you know, people are shooting each other all over the place and they've done it so badly. We should ourselves right. We got big piles of should that are stinking up our freaking conscious.

Speaker 1: 16:56

There's shit all over their relationship, the shit their whole house is full of should.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Boom yeah, if I respond to something with a certain emotion and somebody says you should be ashamed. But I don't feel shame, should I? It's like exactly or not. That's a fun little anecdote that connects to something we were talking about before we actually went on the live.

Speaker 2: 17:18

I was in Japan and there was, I was spending three months very long story maybe another time but we were getting all crazy partying on the weekends and people were all messed up and people were projecting all kinds of these wonderful pontifications about philosophy and the guy who's the husband and wife whose farm I was staying on and working on the wife was sitting there and she's so quiet, wonderful woman, and they said all this stuff and one of them looked over and said, hey, and I remember thinking the same energy, we were just thinking of the should, and she, like a boss, just went, or not, cause I had felt that push, I saw the move, I see you know what I mean. It's it's like, it's all game, right, it's all this dominance, play of power and and whatever projection. But she just took it and like, lobbed it back like a tennis, like or not, and I was like I need to remember that and I've I've kept that with me. That was 2020. You know what I mean that's.

Speaker 2: 18:24

It's that or not is more powerful. It's the. It is what it is.

Speaker 1: 18:29

Is what it is is also a dangerous game, though it's not the same, but I'll help you with that one. But I really do enjoy the less is more in a conversation. The over-explainers get themselves in trouble, trying to make sure everybody's okay, but not allowing it to even have a question, and so it gets tricky with the people are like here's how it should go, and why don't you do this? And it should be this way, and if you don't do that, you're not. You're not good, and you watch out for blame and shame and judgment. And we watch out for the here's how it should be and you're not good if you don't. And I enjoy the idea of somebody saying or not, or no, no is a complete sentence. Yeah, it reminds me of you. Know, I'm going to warrior talk with you, but being able to take this lesson.

Speaker 1: 19:12

I think it was King Philip III or something I want to say. It was Alexander the Great's dad. The story goes that they were going to invade Lyconia, which is the Spartans, and he said if I invade your country, I'm going to, you know, wipe you off the map and I'm gonna erase your history and I'm gonna take all your women and children. But if I do this, you guys are screwed. And the spartans responded back with just if. And king philip is like you know, these guys are a waste of time. Let's screw these guys, let's go around these guys. What a waste of time these guys are.

Speaker 1: 19:46

One word answer, instead of having to give a big, long explanation of how that won't happen, just going like, yeah, if you do that, yeah, if Come on. And so it's those kinds of things where sometimes less is more and when people are trying to control others, they're seeking, know, have, compliance, and I think that you're too much this, too much that and I want to control you. So that way, I am an authority for what I want everything to be like, which I think is very strong for you to say it's a good indicator that you're not very secure with yourself because you're trying to control everyone else, for you not needing to do any self-work.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Right, because it's such an easy thing to understand. It's a very hard thing to climb out of, but the concept of your insecurity leads you to believe. Because you're not secure means out of control, not safe. The security is not there, so you're desperately trying to find a way to dominate a bubble of control to solve your insecurity. What you're failing to realize is that ultimate control doesn't lead to security. It leads to isolation. Right.

Speaker 1: 21:04

It makes it so you don't ever have to do the introspection to heal, in which case you're trying to create your own enablement. I'm trying to make it so you all make sure you change you so I don't ever have to heal, right? And so then everybody who does change themselves ends up going, fine, I'll sacrifice that for me, and fine, I won't have friends, and then fine, I'll shut up, and then fine, I'll sacrifice that for me, and fine, I won't have friends, and then fine, I'll shut up, and then fine, I'll just do whatever you say. And that person still never healed. And so then they're still angry or upset or sad or fearful and you're going like, how are you not? Okay, I sacrificed all of me, so you'll be all right. And they're like, yeah, well, you didn't do enough.

Speaker 2: 21:47

It's like maybe it wasn't me. This is toxic codependency.

Speaker 1: 21:49

You are not wrong. And so when people are doing this, this is I want to give people the right armor against this one. It is very okay to hold the line and say no or not, or even if on people who say I want you to change or you should change, and the core reason behind it comes from a wound from the past, a fear of something from the future, an insecurity they haven't healed from, or a judgment to try to control you, to make you feel bad enough to do whatever they say. So that's going to be like the fears, the insecurities, the wounds and the judgments. If you see this present, if you sacrifice a part of yourself to make them happy, you will never make them happy.

Speaker 2: 22:39

Right, because they're under the delusion that your sacrifice will and it won't. Because the thing, this insecurity, is something that's an internal thing. We can. We can support each other, but I can't put security into your heart to make you feel comfortable with who you are. I can simply reinforce the reality that you can find that place within yourself. It's our own personal journey, Every single one of us. That's what I mean about how it's, about learning to stand aside next to each other and acknowledge we're all suffering, instead of trying to group up and hierarchy levels of who's suffering more and therefore more important gets priority, that selfishness and misunderstanding that. How are you measuring that?

Speaker 1: 23:25

Well, I measure it by. What about me?

Speaker 2: 23:27

Right.

Speaker 1: 23:29

So do I, so we've all got our individual measurements.

Speaker 2: 23:32

No wonder it's not. You know it's not like Apple's, you know it's even worse than the charging cord issue, like. That's why conversation is an art form right, it's a skill, it's not a default. Speaking on the idea of you were pointing all those things out, the other thing I was realizing, like a simple no as an answer, you're never obligated to answer any question ever. You might have to feel the social pressure of 1, 200 million people stare you down while you say no, but you can still hard stop. That's the illusion people don't really understand. It's like if you just post me a question that I thought was whatever I might go, I'm not going to answer that. You know what I mean and you go, why? And I go. I'm not going to answer why. Please move on, we're still cool. You know what I mean. That was private, whatever it is. I'm not saying it's the perfect way, but the point really is that we don't have to divulge, we don't have to open up. I agree, we choose to.

Speaker 1: 24:33

I agree with the choice element of this. I don't disagree with that. But then I also try to understand the purpose for some of the way that that would be postured, because, again, the answer and the solution may not line up. And so if you say I don't have to answer that because Chris said so and you're like you know, well, hold on a second babe, I really do need to know what you need here. I don't have to answer that. So no, and you start turning into the reason that you were trying to maybe what protect yourself or maybe make it so you don't divulge another person's secret, like maybe whatever it would be as a protection system, which is a big reason why people lie is to protect either themselves or others from consequence. So most people are lying not for machiavellian reasons, but for protection right.

Speaker 2: 25:18

You would could simplify by saying I, I'm forbidden from like I. I can't answer that.

Speaker 1: 25:24

I've made promises or not even can't, but I won't.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Like.

Speaker 1: 25:29

I choose to protect another person's thing. If you want to know that answer about them, ask them Most cancer actually won't.

Speaker 2: 25:35

I acknowledge that I got to catch myself too. There's very few actual can'ts Like I can't fly, I can't hold my breath underwater for an hour, but I won't is usually what we mean. I won't do that because someone's feelings will get hurt. I won't do that because my secret will get revealed. I won't do that because my life will come crashing down. Whatever it might be, it's still a won't, not a can't. You're right. Good call on catching me on that one.

Speaker 1: 25:58

Hey, teamwork, yeah. And so I like these things where we're watching people not catching that there's a choice and that our reactions are somehow not in our wheelhouse, like somehow I'm not responsible or accountable for the decisions that I make, because I was emotional today and it doesn't count, and so I can tell you something that is just monstrous. But then I can just say, didn't mean it and that's fine. So I can say, like you know, we may have been brothers for years, but I've never, ever loved you, dude, so I hate you. And then go oh, that's just some shit. I said when I was in a bad mood, and you go no, I invested a lot of life into you, man. And you said you never loved me back, like I don't, I don't know what I'm investing in right now, man.

Speaker 2: 26:42

I hear you, because those are the ones where that's and I've had a, I've had, I've had guy friendships and romantic relationships with women, where I've had that same kind of thing, where it's just your brain sort of breaks trying to to rationale how this is a balanced situation and it just it just isn't. You know it.

Speaker 1: 27:07

No, well, it's hard to bounce back because there are certain things people will say that you can't say sorry for.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Right, there's lines. That's what a boundary really is and I found that shocking. I've had that even with my present girlfriend and I feel like I still have a problem of building a bridge of communication with that, because when she gets heated, the things that will come out of her mouth are just brutal. You know what I mean, and and whenever I've met anyone who gets to that point now she's therapist, so this is where you want to hear something funny.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Chris, most therapists don't like me yeah, they don't like me either, because I challenge a lot of the stuff they learned in academia, especially the language barrier, the, the gatekeeping that comes into the diagnosis conversations like I've read the dsm2 whoopty flippin do yeah and most of that's bullshit too.

Speaker 2: 27:58

If you challenge it, yeah right and I, you know I've had her. Stop me from. This was just personal, anecdotal, like I made a whole series on on toxic traits, predominantly aimed at trying to shine a little bit more highlight on what NPD versus narcissistic behavior, all that jazz really is, cause there's another word that just, but it's like it's still a valid term, there is a, still a correct use for it, and you can't mess that part up and I'll use it and she'll go, don't use that. And my brain wants to just rage. It's like are you trying to tell me that you're with me after seeing me do all that stuff, and that you're? You don't believe I get to even be any form of an authority on this, because you went like Whoa, like so you're.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Are you telling me you're invalidating all of my content that I put my heart into? And this is what I mean, because you don't just counter it in private. You know what I mean Because that's really me. I'm not projecting some. I'm not there for me. I'm not making my videos so that Chris gets attention. I'm making these videos because this stuff needs to be talked about.

Speaker 1: 28:58

I see your intention, I digress. No, your intention is good, but it's curious that you said the way that you are responded to when you're having your good intention is don't use that, don't say that. Is that a request or is that a demand?

Speaker 2: 29:14

it's more of uh don't say that, chris shame. It's a it's. It's more of a demand it's a demand.

Speaker 1: 29:21

I'm demanding what you should do or demeaning my, my, my cognitive.

Speaker 2: 29:26

It's worse than just that.

Speaker 1: 29:32

I don't know how much I would add without asking, but if I do tell you what you can and can't do, I'm at least making a demand. Now, my intention you may create. But if you ask, why did you tell me what I can and can't do and then go like, well, because I think you don't know what you're talking about and I don't think you should do this, and they're like, oh, now we're in the shoulds and what you believe, okay, what else do you see when you see me?

Speaker 2: 29:57

The problem is once you get into the weeds with that kind of situation, especially when you're dealing with these folks.

Speaker 1: 30:02

Is it weeds or truths? Is it weeds or truth?

Speaker 2: 30:06

I call it the weeds because, as far as I can tell the people who are, let's say, blind to themselves or unwilling to be self-aware to the degree that it involves humble pie Sure, because that's, you know, you need to develop a taste for it. But the people who aren't or haven't developed a taste for it, as soon as you get into what I'm calling the weeds, they start acting like a drowning victim and you have to start sort of talking to them like they're an angry, wild animal, very calm and soothing, and it becomes this thing where you're sort of holding your mountainous whatever against the rage of their storm. And this isn't just with women, I'm talking about anybody who's in this, I've seen it and it's like you're getting nowhere. You just have to stand there and minutes, hours of your life can be drained away, and I've failed to make progress in those things.

Speaker 1: 30:58

So maybe I haven't seen that work yet. I think I see people say weather the storm, but it's kind of like saying like if I'm abusive you should just let me put up with it.

Speaker 1: 31:08

Let me punch you till I'm tired, right? I don't agree with that. I don't think that's a healthy way. I think a healthy boundary is different than you have to be stoic in the face of somebody whose intention is to do harm, and this is where I think people goof up boundaries and non-negotiables. There are certain things where I don't really have to. I don't really have to have a big debate about it's.

Speaker 1: 31:29

If you do certain things, that's just not a match for me and I'm not mad at you or sad at you for it. I'll still grieve the relationship. But if you believe that some sort of domineering controlling system that is designed to make sure I am compliant, based on your inability to be able to handle situations, is the best way for us to grow, I will just say or not, because that's not going to work for what I believe is best for a growing, healthy relationship. And so if I say, well, when I'm angry, I can attack you as much as I want to and that's okay. Well, now I have to choose.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Is this a boundary that I can even you know try to have any kind of a leeway to like? Well, all right, maybe a little, or up to this point, but maybe we should have a safe word where we time out, or I can have a boundary that says once you start talking to me in this way, I'll give you one chance to slow down and hit your brakes, and if you don't hit those brakes, I'm walking out the conversation. I'm just going to, I'm just going to walk outside, I'm going to go walk it off. That's what I'm going to go do. I'm going to go walk it off because I don't have to stay here and weather your storm, because your storm is not meant to bring water and grow. Your storm is meant to destroy. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:47

I've had that scenario too, Fortunately not with my current girlfriend. You know what I mean and I don't like to demonize her too much. It sounds like I'm trash talking her. These are in the worst moments. We'll see is the best I like to say with that.

Speaker 1: 32:59

I don't try to pretend like I'm certain, but I'm not willing to bail on it or to move on yet this is interesting because I have a question for you in these dynamics, because, as a as a person who does self-work, we have to be aware that we're doing it. Like if I'm in the middle of going, you fuck you, you motherfucker, I'm just bombing on you like I have to be aware that I am doing that you're actively doing it, mindfully doing it right?

Speaker 1: 33:27

yeah, I didn't accidentally call you a name. I really I deliberately am doing that. You're actively doing it, mindfully doing it, right? Yeah, I didn't accidentally call you a name. I really I deliberately am doing this and there's a reason for it. That's an attack system to try to force control, because I'm going to be more aggressive to make sure that you A hear me and B I don't need to hear you, and so, like, I'm going to make sure I control this whole situation.

Speaker 1: 33:43

But then you also see people who will go into, suppress or flight or get the hell out of there, or people who will use freeze and they'll be like I just shut down, I don't even listen anymore. Or they negotiate and they try to be people pleasing in a way that they have to control the conversation and I have to over explain and I have to make sure whatever you need I'll do for you. And people are going into all these systems of control without ever doing the beginning of what you said, which is being present and listen to them. And this is a really interesting thing that your girl even has a system that goes against what you both know works, and that's where there should be the agreement of going, babe, when you do the thing that we both know doesn't work. I'm walking out Now, I'm leaving you, but I'm going to let you cool the hell off.

Speaker 1: 34:26

So I'm going to give you five to 10 minutes to go. Damn it, I was doing the thing, and if you don't know, you're doing the thing. What are you an expert at? Again, and maybe I don't need to take advice on things you don't know how to do. Let's go ahead and get into truth here, because if I'm telling you how to build something but I don't even know how to use a hammer, that's probably not going to be the best teacher. Hey, chris, join my millionaire class. I only make 30K a year, but you can join my millionaire class and I'll teach you how to be a millionaire. It's like you don't know how to make a million dollars. You can't teach me that.

Speaker 2: 34:59

It drives me up a wall. The level of certainty people project about answers to problems, monetarily and emotionally. I mean it's across the board, tony Robbins and all these people who are. You know it's like it's true. You can go to one of these weekends and spend all of this money and have this experience, experience fueled by a lot of manipulation, a lot whether you know, and that part always makes me go, because you're using a buttload of tools.

Speaker 1: 35:39

All of them music, high energy, a bunch of people, crowds, exposure, vulnerability and even On some of these, I'd have to know which ones are manipulation, because change your state is actually just useful by yourself.

Speaker 2: 35:51

Right, but I would want you to actively know why we're doing it, not doing it without your knowledge. So I did see Tony Robbins.

Speaker 1: 36:00

He actually does explain. This is why, how we change your state when the music comes on, we're doing it for a purpose. Everybody do something crazy and weird because it changes your mindset. So he did explain it. So I'm just I am openly asking like, well, which part is the manipulation?

Speaker 2: 36:14

because I don't know the manipulation is that the feeling that that high, that high charged moment induces is replicatable outside of it. Right, like requires all of those people and that massive thing Like there's a reason. When we all join together, we have these experiences, right, collective attention and perspective and sharing things. So that's the powerful thing doing that. When we leave, we have to have a little pocket knife version of that, sure, and I think he does a good job of explaining all of that. But what he fails to do is acknowledge be careful how much you attach to my energy, even right now, but he wants them to. He becomes sort of a crutch and I think that's sort of it. I'm not blaming him because I'm not saying I know a better way. Right, it's his tool and it works to a degree, but so many people climb onto that codependently to like that, and then it's like they need to see YouTube videos of him or whatever to recharge it and it's like that's not being independent or teaching you self-resilience. It's you're just shifting your dependency to something else.

Speaker 1: 37:21

You may be onto something, but I don't know if it's. If it's Because you're not wrong, that even our videos and other people's videos we teach information but not transformation. And so we'll say be aware that these are there, or here's a tool that you can put in your toolbox. It doesn't make you an expert at using it, but at least now you know that tool is there. And so I've seen Tony Robbins once.

Speaker 1: 37:44

So I didn't have a crutch where I'm like I need them or I can't be happy. So I didn't have that, but I did understand the tools that he was giving me and my toolbox required me to do practice. And so I did practice outside of Tony Robbins to say how do I use this? And I have no fear of failure. So it's okay for me to go like well, not backwards, that didn't work, Let me try it this way. You know, like you know. So it's okay to practice, and I think that's where people get more into the crutches. They'll try it one way and go. That didn't work. I need to go see tony again and you're like no, no, just try a different way. Right, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:18

And so I think this is where you know there's the pocket knife thing is just trained or untrained, but having a tool isn't the same maybe the part part I'm and, to be fair, mislabeling is manipulation per se is just going to a Tony Robbins event is like going to a concert Agreed, and there's something wrong with that, but there's also something right with it, if I can make sense about that. It's like it's okay for it to be, but it's also like he needs to sort of highlight that it isn't as well. Right, this is an extreme moment.

Speaker 2: 38:56

I want to know why people can get addicted to go into festivals and music. They get addicted to an entertaining aspect of it, and if you start thinking that's how mental health works, I just go to a party. It's the. It's just another version of the big swings.

Speaker 1: 39:11

So it's like you may be right. I haven't encountered very many of these people, though the ones who have to go to the like they're addicted to going to an event. I know that it's it's. I believe they're out there.

Speaker 1: 39:22

It's just not my circle, I guess, and so, like I'm not saying people fans I'm not, i'm'm not, I don't mean to my saying cause I've done no research on that element. Not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen or experienced it in person. Um, and so there could be something to that, and I don't know if a disclaimer at a concert to go like guys, we're about to jam for you and you're going to love it, but it's not the same energy as when you're at home listening to this on your headphones. So enjoy the energy, but understand this is for entertainment and it's not like this at home.

Speaker 1: 39:56

I don't know if the concert needs to do that disclaimer anymore than Tony Robbins goes. You do know that this isn't the same as the video you watched before you got here. Right, it's the show, and so I don't know if a disclaimer is needed as much as people to take a little bit of introspection and go how do I use these tools instead of? I need a codependency to go into events, and that's part of maybe one of the events will be. You do know that these are just the tools. Stop coming here to expect transformation, and this is maybe where I can agree with you.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Yeah, you get what I'm pointing at Some of the events they call it transformation weekend, but it's too big to give that person the time to do their work individually, because there's thousands of people there and they try to space it up in groups and they try to break it down to smaller groups, but it's still you to you and it's maybe there's something there. I didn't, I didn't have that experience, but you could be onto something for certain personality types.

Speaker 2: 40:55

I guess for me it's just it felt going to cause I've done like Psy you're familiar with Psy and then a few other ones all similar to this, and it's this opiate that I can sort of feel being pumped in. And you know, watching the people I'm interacting with, cause I'm I'm my goal often isn't to be cynical, though I often am, um, but that's not my goal, right, like I'm not diogenes over here trying to totally. You know I'm not homeless, like I'm not. So what I'm really trying to do is see things clearly and not be drawn into something unwittingly.

Speaker 2: 41:37

So when someone comes up to me and they're very, very energetic and excited, I get suspicious almost immediately, cause it's like you're pushing a little too much. If you believe in this, you could dial it down. You don't need to actually push it at me. And there's a lot of that push it at me, energy at those types of things, not usually coming from the leader but from the people working within the thing to kind of like, and that gives like a cult vibe and a bunch of other stuff and people get sucked into that. And I see that energy there and I think that's really what I'm trying to highlight that there needs to be something there to be mindful of that, because there's some people who are just extra, or have the armor to recognize the difference between a sales pitch and authenticity, because you're not wrong.

Speaker 1: 42:24

There are certain things, especially in the speaking world. I've gone into just watching other people's events and it's so over the top, disingenuous and so fake that it's really difficult to find connection. I end up just also leaving those groups because like, like, hi guys, isn't everything amazing? What an amazing, awesome amazingness and an amazingness is going to be so amazing today. So get your amazing books ready, because we're going to write some amazing things and I'm like, is everything seriously amazing? Like it's like everything.

Speaker 2: 42:54

Mail time. Mail time it's like blues clues level time. Mail time it's like Blue's Clues level kind of like. You're trying to treat us like a kindergarten class, get us hyped up because we are all having problems with our attention. We're all grown adults, treat us as such and it's the same thing when you go out to dinner. There's so much of it in our society across the board trying to make everyone have this like the same experience. You know all restaurants want to hyper control. So here's your, here's your script.

Speaker 2: 43:19

You have to say as a waiter or waitress, so you can upsell uh, as opposed to put uh, uh, having a good experience as the main point for your customers, right?

Speaker 2: 43:30

If you're going out to eat, you want your server, you want their number one priority to be your experience, not how much tips they're going to get, not how much they're going to the, the, the business is going to sell. You don't go out to eat to care about that shit. And when I can see that that's what you care about, suddenly I am like the experience is shot for me, because the whole point of putting out is to be served without any of that weird manipulation and guilt. You know what I mean, if I, if you're going to invite me over to your house, you don't do any of that right. Going out to dinner is meant to, is meant to be another version of that. When you're over here, you're at our house, you're part of our family, but that's very rarely the experience. We just sort of all get on board and play along with it, and it's much more closer to make-believe or cosplay than it is genuine.

Speaker 1: 44:19

That's true, and maybe it's not supposed to be completely genuine and maybe there's a part of us that's being a little judgmental about people trying to run a business.

Speaker 2: 44:29

Also true, yep.

Speaker 1: 44:30

Yeah, so I mean like we may be doing the same thing, it's just on the other end of going. Well, I don't like it.

Speaker 2: 44:39

So do it my way. Here's what you should do. Well, that's why I don't say the show don't like.

Speaker 1: 44:42

You should be not worrying about the money you should be not worried about. You should be looking into my experience. You should be trying to so like I don't know. We're getting in the same boat I guess I was just.

Speaker 2: 44:52

I've done bart, like as a guy who was trying to be an actor at the beginning of my youth, when I really that first big job yeah, glad I didn't, glad I didn't, I sort of did, but I'm glad I didn't and then I ended up being a host and a server and a busboy and a barback and a bartender and an assistant manager that kind of jazz. And having done so many of those, yeah, I feel authoritative enough to say that I know how to provide a good experience. I know that when I did those things, I did receive high tips or what I felt was genuine gratitude, and that they seemed to be happy and that they came back. I think all the things that the company wanted me to do ended up happening, but I did not conform to those things because I refused to be fake. So the counter there is can those people do that and be genuine with a script? Maybe Do they care, maybe Do they have to care?

Speaker 2: 45:52

Again, that's projection, so you're right. Again, that's projection, so you're right. I'm just explaining that from my experience. The best experiences I've had on both sides involve the authenticity of it felt like somebody was happy to do their job, not like in some unrealistic extra way, but some people were naturally extra. You know what I mean. It's not about the extra. I'm talking about whether it felt like they were comfortable and we were comfortable, and there's a lot that goes into that. So I'm not trying to crap on all of it, it's just anyway you got a thing, there's a thing there.

Speaker 2: 46:25

Yeah, I can't land every plane. It's ADHD. What can I say?

Speaker 1: 46:28

Nah, you're good, so on these ones. It's kind of fun when we get in these conversations cause you're like it's it's not meant to be, but it's almost like you know what grinds my gears man Servers, you know, like Tony.

Speaker 2: 46:43

Robbins events.

Speaker 1: 46:44

You know where you're like I gotcha.

Speaker 2: 46:46

I guess for me it's the it's Fake it till you make it isn't fake it, fake it, fake it, make it, fake it till you make it is be confident, have faith in yourself, even though you don't really feel that confidence yet that you get through learning. Be as confident and have faith in yourself and practice, practice, practice and grow, grow, grow, practice, practice, practice and grow, grow, grow. And so the fake. It is like here and it's supposed to be dissolving as you progress towards making it. These days, a lot of people are just doing the fake, fake, fake and because they're projecting it, and a lot of people are enough to be suckers for it because they're not under there, and then these people think they make it, so they're bypassing the actual learning to be adept at crap.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Yeah, that's actually using denial as acceptance. It's a, it's a curse, and you're not wrong, because being fake to make it does make it. So if you do make it, it's because you're fake and that means you never have to be authentic. It does create a curse. It also makes it so you don't know how to grieve, you don't know how to accept, you don't know how to have truthful conversations, and your authenticity will always be non-existent, because if you are authentic, then you won't be what you're faking to be and that'll expose you, thus leading you into an emotional crumble, because you don't know how to grieve, understand thyself, don't know how to do anything Like. You've just become a persona.

Speaker 1: 48:16

And here's an interesting thought about that If you are being a persona and these are the things where you talk about the characters that we play, or the makeup that we wear, or the energy that we change for when we're being like in those conversations If you start being something different, whose life are you really living? If I'm being a character with you and I'm playing like well, hello, chris, welcome to the show. Wow, and I started being a character the whole entire time. Well, how many minutes am I not being myself? And if you're living your whole life pretending to be something that you're not, whose life are you living then? Because at some point there's a crack in the mask and people start going like wait a second, who are you? And you go. I don't know, right, I've been playing a character for 20 years.

Speaker 2: 49:11

I don't know who I am and I and I don't think that you guys would like me if you did- See the hard part, I think and hopefully I'm not tangenting off from here, but the hard part is, I think, because we're apes, there's that insecurity born from lack of safety and each individual human being has the capacity for all of the things humans can do, and we pretend like that's not true, right like we're all dangerous, right, like this idea I would never harm.

Speaker 2: 49:54

Blah, blah, blah. These I, these I nevers. It's like nah, if I tweak your scenario enough, that's what those weird horror movies are meant to sort of point out to you. Mess with you enough, get you trapped in an isolated, controlled environment. Enough, and your perspective, your behavior, your mindset, your faith moves around. So that's this weird limiting thing we try to do to other people, so that I can put you into a box, label you Rick. I understand Rick, and Rick is this type of guy with a beard and guys with beards and white guys and like all of these things, all the labels I think I got you.

Speaker 2: 50:31

That's the illusion. I'm trying to do that so that I'm not afraid of what you might do or so that I'm ready, trying to prevent any potential danger, and that's fine. But it's not real right. It's me trying to oversimplify something and then pretend I understand it. We need to be able to open back up. Life is a lot more like jazz, it's like parkour. You don't get to have things in a box. You don't get to do that. No human being fits in one. So I meet you, you and I start to develop a relationship If you're consistent with your, with your words and your behavior. Over time we develop trust in those things. I can start to feel like I could depend on you to remain that kind of consistent the longer it goes. But the illusion there is if something tragic happens to you, I have to be willing to step back and go now they might change and allow that change. You know what I mean. Or help guide it's a sticky wicket. Guide it's a sticky wicket. But the idea, like they think the problem a lot of the times is we're trying too hard to force everyone else to fit into these little boxes so that we can feel safe, as opposed to understanding we're all like it's a little more dangerous, but you just have to sort of you're dangerous too, right.

Speaker 2: 51:49

I always like to tell my guy clients, be a good guy, but keep your teeth sharp, right. That doesn't mean that like those two things coupled together makes sense to almost every guy, right. Like it's okay to be a dick sometimes. Just don't be a bag of dicks and you'll be okay, and you do know the difference. Like it just locks in like oh, yeah, I get that. Like that's what it is, right. So this idea that like, oh, I would never. It's like, no, I might, but don't test me. Why would you? Why are we playing this game? Why are you even creating this hypothetical scenario, that kind of thing?

Speaker 1: 52:23

Yeah, there's very good questions there, like why are we doing it this way? Why are you testing? And I think it's a really dangerous thing for people to not recognize that there is coming a point where there's a push for like we're all capable, so we all should, and your should comes back in again we're all capable, so we all should. And then you're doing that thing, like you said, projecting a limiting belief onto others so that way I can control their potential of what they're able or allowed to do. But it's still the it's, it's. I hate to be super gender specific, but I guess maybe more the female energy I can't say females, but the female energy is going to bully this direction more. The male energy is a lot more physical and going to be more physically confrontational, but the female energy will be more reputation demolition or destructive of who that person is by passive aggression.

Speaker 1: 53:19

Well, in order to win but not compete, it's better for you to take yourself out of the game. So that way I'm the best than it is for me to get better to beat you.

Speaker 1: 53:31

And that's a different energy for this. Like, I'm going to give you a limiting projection You're allowed to be this and, and if you're not, what tools will I use to make sure you comply to what I believe your limits should be? Well, now I'm going to judge the shit out of you, judge, judge, judge. So that way you are compliant and I will tell you what you're allowed to be, so that way I can win and be in control, but I can still, um, get whatever I want. Right, I still have whatever I want.

Speaker 2: 54:00

It's the pursuit of control that highlights the bad to me yeah it's really it's all control, everything's control.

Speaker 1: 54:09

We're all. That's what you're watching. That's why the correct armor makes us so like remember insecurities, fears, wounds, uh judgments. It's just control. And this is where, even in our programs, just the know thyself element makes it. So create a boundary that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 54:23

Do you want to hear a fun statistic? That I've done hundreds of times Is, whenever I do values assessment like let's go through your values, your top two values. So I have a whole values list and I say pick 10 of your top values, break it down to five, break it down to two. I think Brene Brown does the same thing. So let's break down your top two values.

Speaker 1: 54:44

And then what I do is I challenge how do you process things? How do you operate? What is your motivation for doing those things? And I see do these two values line up with the way you operate? And I have never one person I've done this with authors, coaches, phds, bosses, you name it. Not one person has ever got their top two values correct, because they'll be like my top values are faith and family. And then you realize all their decision process is all based around service or growth or community or something it has nothing to do with family or faith. In fact, it's just what I wish it would be, not what I really do. And so people are trying to create boundaries or protection mechanisms against other people's control systems, but they don't know what they're protecting, and that makes it really difficult to hold a healthy boundary when I don't know which things I need to hold them for.

Speaker 2: 55:36

Right, because you don't know where to put the wall.

Speaker 1: 55:40

Or when to walk away, and so people are trying to weather the storm when you should just go back inside, right you know? And so it's one of those things where we're trying to figure out how do I live within this limiting projection that you've given me, instead of simply saying or not.

Speaker 2: 56:00

Well, the hardest part I have found when it comes to like romantic relationships is the misunderstanding of how the joining really works. Right, you don't become one, you're still two, you're two whole combined. Right when, when two atoms join, they don't become one, they become a pair.

Speaker 2: 56:20

You're like so you become a pair. Now you could consider that pair one thing, but then that's like that's a whole. That's the next level, just keeping to the understanding that we're both complete. You don't complete me, you add on and I add on, so we're in this together. I like to think of like my mental landscape, my world could be like a County with a big river that runs around it, like you know. However, you want to look at that, and my girlfriends is the next County, right, and maybe these counties move around like molecules and whatever you know. And when you bound up with people, you start to build a bridge so that they stick together and they maneuver together. Everything is that connection between you. You're still two holes, so the connection is the bridge and it requires maintenance from both sides, it requires negotiation, it requires validation and all the things that go into becoming and joining onto a team. Right, like we need to both be here. I don't suddenly become all and you are in my world and you don't suddenly do that either. We could create one together, but we still are ourselves within it.

Speaker 2: 57:26

This over need to blend, I think has a lot to do with insecurity, because they're afraid of being alone, and there's a big difference between being alone and being lonely. Yeah Right, monks go for flipping years and they're not torturing themselves. So it's not about being alone. It's about not knowing how to deal with loneliness, which is a human emotion we all deal with because we're social mammals. So when you're alone and you're feeling lonely, that's not something that's to be shamed for, but it's also like it's not weird or wrong or odd or even necessarily to be fixed per se. Like feel the loneliness and see if that's.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Bringing somebody else in who doesn't want to show up is a very selfish way to solve that loneliness. If you're thinking that bringing someone else in is the answer, you're using someone else. We're not meant to use each other. We're meant to help each other. So if I'm a tool of yours, something's wrong. Right, we're not balanced because we're users, not tools, and we need that's really what it is. We need to be able to treat each other like users. We're all users, you know.

Speaker 1: 58:34

I think people are taking that too literally and they're just using people. We're all users, you know. I think people are taking that too literally and they're just using people we're messing it up the semantics.

Speaker 2: 58:41

Yeah yeah, I know I get so philosophical and I know some people take everything so literal.

Speaker 1: 58:46

You're doing perfect, all right. So in this one I agree with you. I think there's things I've noticed. The patterns on that same thing is you go like it's going to be me and you and you see people competing like I'm better, no, you're better. No, I'm the good one, you're the bad one. You see the competing. But then you see your codependency ones. As we say you complete me, you complete me. It's like, well, I never have to actually be whole because I'm relying on you to fill in my voids, and that obviously doesn't work because you never heal and you're getting mad at them for not curing things they weren't there for. So so that's a codependency doesn't work. And I'm with you, it's the 100, 100. We compliment each other and if we have issues, personal issues, trauma, whatever.

Speaker 2: 59:29

There's still our responsibility to personally work on. The only responsibility of our partner is to be there for us, not to heal us, not to counsel us, not to fix us Right, but let's talk about this.

Speaker 1: 59:44

This is a huge mistake out there where people will judge men into what they should do when men are trying to become a safe place. It's really screwed up right now, and so this is really difficult to do. Instead of the. It's very because what you just said is like your wounds from your past are now an us thing. But again, rick, you just said don't change yourself for someone's wounds Correct. What I mean is I'll create a space where you're safe enough to heal. But I do not heal you, I just make it so you're able to not have to fight everything while you're healing. This is what it means. So I do not take your damage on as my own. That does not work, but I can make it so I can take things off your plate so you can focus on healing.

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

Now, if you choose not to do introspection which is one of women's greatest curses I've run into, which is gaslighting their introspection and saying I can call somebody else's shit out, no problem, but I don't call it the same thing when I do it.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

That's one of the biggest issues I've run into is like, when it comes to the guys being able to be a safe place, well, the emotional element is the hardest challenge, but when it comes for women to be able to receive safety or be safe for their man, the truth or reality element is the hardest obstacle, because the reality is not as beneficial to them and so they need to control reality in order to be okay, which goes back into the masks that we wear, to be loved, approved of and chosen. And guys are like well, what do I need to be or do in order for you to be loved, approved of and chosen? And guys are like well, what do I need to be or do in order for you to be okay? And they think ladies know, but they're trying to appease the mask and not being authentic enough to give a true need. Again, nobody knows their values and don't get me started on knowing their needs. They don't.

Speaker 2: 1:01:34

I'll give you an example of like from a parenting perspective, right To create a safe space. Like you know, a couple of examples. Say, you're a parent and your teenage child is at a party and in the past you've told that child if something ever happens, if there's ever an emergency and you're in trouble and you have no one else to call, I don't want you to. I don't want you to you call me, right, you want to be that person for your kids. So you drill it into their heads. Now, when they do call, when this does happen, how do you handle it? Right now, if I would say and this is my opinion, I don't like to always say that there's a right or wrong In my opinion, creating a safe space means you do exactly what you said you were going to do. You go pick them up, you bring them back, you get them out of danger and you get them back to safety and whatever parenting or talking about it, things need to happen. That waits right. You show up, you create the safe space so they know that what they did makes sense. Then you have to talk. You don't show up to pick them up and blow up, or show up and shame them or do anything that adds to it. You save them, and saving them doesn't involve educating them along the way back. It's that's my side, whereas a lot of parents would go and show up and they would mean well, and they'd say a joke, passive, aggressive, whatever it is, all these types of little stupid things and make it worse, and what that ends up happening is showing the kid. I thought I could have faith in you to show up and not do any of that, but instead you showed up and did that, so I'm going to try to find another solution next time. That's what that is. So it wasn't a safe space.

Speaker 2: 1:03:13

If it's safe, they know it's safe, safe even if you scold them afterwards or you're having that conversation. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you've got to be careful about how you do it, otherwise you burn the bridge. Same reason why a kid doesn't talk to their parents about sex because their parents don't know how to receive the reality that their parent, their children are, eventually become sexual beings like. Get over it and you don't get to choose when. And all this disappointment about how you want your kids to grow and how you want you, you, you, you, you, you, you don't give birth to a child to own them and then dictate the course of their life. You give birth to a child to guide them, to figure out who the hell they are and hopefully teach them enough so they have become a happy, healthy, fulfilled member of society. But whatever choices they make aren't for you to have opinions about. They really aren't. You can at least not project.

Speaker 2: 1:03:59

Yeah, you can still have an opinion, but Right, Like it's my approval of my son something he needs to be worried about.

Speaker 1: 1:04:06

Yes, why? Because being proud of your kid matters, yeah worried. Yeah, this is where we have to be selective. Does the approval matter to my kid?

Speaker 2: 1:04:19

Yeah, it does Well my kid is withholding that approval.

Speaker 1: 1:04:24

Still, yeah, you're right, you're making a good point, so I'm going to stack with you on this one. You're making a good point. And so we have three teenage girls and let me just tell you, fucking up's an art form. They got it down, they get it, and so we have to love them through the crazy that they do. And we've had them do pretty high-level crazy, like this matters. Crazy it's not like you messed the kitchen up, it's like this one's going to leave a scar. And so we've had those ones that are there. It's become a cool thing.

Speaker 1: 1:04:57

I that are there, it's uh, it's become a cool thing as, as I'm a stepdad, so I have three teenage daughters. I didn't make them, but I raise them and with this job it's really made it. So my role becomes clear because their dad and mom freak out way more than me, and so whenever they have their shit come out, I'm the one who's like, hey, hey, calm down, we did way worse. Let's just listen to them. Like you're going to tell me you didn't drink when you're just, it's fine, let them, they're safe. And so they know that if they call me, I'm going to be like I'm really proud that you called me, like, I'm fucking fucked up. I'm like, but I'm going to get you home safe. I'm glad that you called me when you were fucked up. Good choices. I'm proud of you and I can have that moment that they won't remember, but they'll feel it, and so that stays right there, that's the piece that'll be there.

Speaker 1: 1:05:47

And I think this is the part where you're seeing again the control systems, where people want to tell people they're good or bad, right or wrong with judgments, so that way they become more compliant. But you're not remembering that we have to fail to grow, we have to mess up, and people are getting so big on results and not measuring effort, like did you try? I'm proud of you for that, because failing is now just a part of getting better Instead of, since you didn't get an A, you're grounded, like this is where kids get screwed up, because there really is only one good way and it's not easy to be perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:06:24

It's impossible to be. In fact, it's one of my seven daily freaking affirmations. It's choose progress over perfection. Perfection is a direction, not a destination. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

I got a balance, I got a balance one for you, one that I I this is an enlightenment that I came to last year and it's really served me. And just the maddening times that we've had when I accepted in mind body, heart and soul, all elements of myself that I control nothing. It put me in control of everything. This is going to be something that people will get this key but have no idea what door it's for. Like, this is when I, when I realized I don't control anything. I only control the way that I respond or, you know, handle the situation. That's all I have. And so I'll sit here and go.

Speaker 1: 1:07:17

Yeah, your oldest daughter. She was out drinking last night and instead of going well, that's not okay, I'm pissed off and she should never. And blah, blah, blah. I'm getting in all this stuff. I'm like, yeah, well, that happened. She was definitely drinking last night. That already happened.

Speaker 1: 1:07:30

I can be as mad as I want about it, but it's already happened. So I don't control that. But I can control. Like, how safe was she? And I can love her through.

Speaker 1: 1:07:39

Like, did you, were you the one there to hold your hair? That's an uncomfortable night, you know. Like you can be there and go like, did you learn how to do this safely. Did you put yourself in dangerous scenarios or were you aware of your surroundings still, and trying to train our humans to be good at it, instead of feeling ashamed or scared or guilty because you didn't do what I think you should when they already did it? I don't control what happened it already did happen but I can come to the processing and realization of what already happened. So I can still grieve like, oh, I should have, could have, would have done the bargaining phase, and I'm really angry. They didn't do it this way, but they already did it and I'm kind of bummed out about it. But I'll be okay, let's accept what is so. That way, I can appropriately choose how to be there for my people and love them through the fucked up shit that they have to do to become an adult.

Speaker 2: 1:08:34

Yeah, we don't. This molding thing is is is just the wrong perspective, in my opinion. We're guides, guides along the path, saying that's dangerous. You know what I mean? But it's so, it's we. There's so subtle nuances of like don't go do that dangerous thing because you will get harmed, blah, blah, blah. But there's that other side of again, the insecurity that comes out in parents where it's don't do that, how would I feel?

Speaker 1: 1:08:58

That'll make me look bad. If you touch that and burn yourself, it'll make me look bad.

Speaker 2: 1:09:03

That's the bad side of this that I think people can get caught up in because they're too worried about the optics or, machiavellianly, looking like they're a good parent, right, I have to control you too, right, yeah, very interesting, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:09:15

So this is where the letting go of control which is a high level skill, by the way, you know cause we understand the, the belief systems that we have to have like happen to us. The first one, most common one, is it happened to me, we all know that one. And then the one that goes to the one that everyone talks about in every meme. It didn't happen to you, it happened for you's. The growth phase.

Speaker 1: 1:09:36

Oh, I hate that too well, it's important, though it's an important phase to go through. So people use it as meme therapy but don't actually understand how to use it. But once you practice this, it's pretty valuable. But then the next level up is actually more difficult than it sounds, which is that balance thing that I just said. We're in mind body, heart and soul. I can have full acceptance of what is, and that means the things just happened and I don't have to have a reaction to it. I can have an acceptance of what is. So that way I can then go to the final phase of now that I accept what is. I can now use this to work through me. So now I can help others based on what I've overcome through radical acceptance of what is, and now I can help you get there too. These are belief systems that we have to train to do, and most people really struggle with the first one, that it all happened to me. I'm the victim, poor me. What about me? Me, me, me. Until they realize that happened for you.

Speaker 2: 1:10:39

Well, that's the only reason I countered it, because I don't disagree with what you're saying. I understand that sort of progression and the scaffolding being built there for the wash, rinse, repeat cycle of sort of getting your mindset off of that it happened to me thing. For me it's more of a I've gone, I went through that and and and the place I reached, which I sometimes feel is like a really weird, odd lonely place. But then I also wonder if, like that's, a hundred bajillion people have all said you know it's that kind of. Are you really special?

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

Yeah, maybe not Whatever, but the point is I don't think anything happens to me or for me. I think it's more like we're in a giant breathing, pumping organism. That's you know what I mean. That's all happening in real time and I am one consciousness within it. And I do control myself, this little bubble of my emotion, like I don't control, but I'm the one generating my emotions and my thoughts. And so it's for me to run the landscape of reality based on knowing that and being ready. There isn't going to be things I'm always ready for and there's going to be new things, and I choose whether this thing is happening for me or to me. Just like you're saying, I get to shift those things and because I can shift them, they're both not exactly right. It's just me trying to tweak it so that I can understand in this conceptual way.

Speaker 2: 1:11:55

But it's really more like life is parkour and you are only in control of you. There isn't a going back. There's a learning how to progress forward, and you can progress forward with all your experiences. They can be heavy baggage or they can be light. They can be scars that stay open or you can allow them to close. You're not obligated to do any of it. You get to choose. You can keep them open. You can defend the reason that you have your trauma and why you are. No one can control that. You're right, it's yours, stay that way.

Speaker 2: 1:12:24

But the problem, of course the paradox, becomes. They're constantly we're all saying I don't like it, I don't want to be this. It's like that's where the rub is. The biggest problem is that you've convinced yourself you have a problem and you don't. You're just more fresh. Or you haven't gone in a direction, or you haven't tried, or you haven't moved in a new. It's not, you know, you're not. Nobody's broken. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:12:47

I think the closest thing that I can analogize to it is that we do build mind mazes. You know like that, that castle in your mind. We all build mazes and some are our rooms where we go to hide. And sometimes those, those buildings get, those mazes get so complicated that we feel like we get lost in our minds and we don't know how to get out. But the truth is we're still the generator of said maze. So the only one who really knows the way out is us. That's what a good therapist or coach can do, or even journaling for yourself. Right, you don't necessarily. It's you exploring and having faith. That's the key thing. Having faith in yourself, to believe you can find your way through all of that stuff. And maybe you don't even want to find your way out. Maybe you make it comfortable and you stop being amazed and it turns whatever. Like. You can play with your imagination and that metaphor any way you want.

Speaker 2: 1:13:34

The idea here is you're not busted, you're just before. You know, it's all it is. You know if you're still breathing, you're still in the game, that's it. You know you have all of these tools. You could be monstrous or kind, you could be generous or selfish, and no one can force you. Otherwise, we can manipulate each other.

Speaker 2: 1:13:57

But this idea that you made me do something now, even if you put a gun to my head and I know this is harsh, because people don't like to think about death and they get all weird I remember seeing something you're talking about suicide and I totally get what you're saying. Like it becomes a very rational, logical thing, like everything sucks, nothing really matters, people don't give a fuck, and I'm, as a guy, like I, whatever I'm. If I'm going to say, what about me? Then suddenly I'm selfish every fucking time I do that. Uh, so I'm just supposed to eat it and be the mountain Like. You know what I'm out Like. If that's the rules, then I'm done, and I don't think people quite understand that when they project that be a man crap at us, especially when women do it.

Speaker 2: 1:14:33

No offense, ladies, but here's the reality, how would any woman on this planet feel if I said be a woman and try to explain to you what a woman is from my perspective, out of your mouth, I guarantee I need to be lit on fire. They're all going to tell me you have any clue what it's like to be a woman, chris.

Speaker 1: 1:14:52

you'd be judged. You'd be judged, and judged, and judged and judged because that's the control system to beat a man.

Speaker 2: 1:14:59

And there is the double standard. That doesn't work right. So the bottom line here is I can imagine, empathize, do my best to try to understand how my female companions, loved ones, family members are feeling. I do not know what it is to be a woman or how to be a proper woman. Anything I am going to state is how I wish women to behave from my perspective. I don't know what it's like to go through the hormones. I don't know what it's like to get all the pressure, all the passive, aggressive bullying that happens between women as they grow up. I'm not trying to diminish that. It's a freaking, monstrous thing they go through. I'm not trying to diminish that it's a freaking monstrous thing they go through, but it doesn't mean that entitlement is born out of it, and that's where the rub really comes from.

Speaker 2: 1:15:44

You know just like a walk it off. Crap doesn't entitle us to be dicks, it just doesn't.

Speaker 1: 1:15:50

No, and it's true, and this is a lot of the game that you're seeing right now really is revolved around judgments. It really is. This is how you beat men. This is why men are beat. It's like, if you don't do what I say, you're a piece of shit, you're a misogynist, you're a bigot, you're a racist, you're a whatever. You're mansplaining. You're mansplaining. They just make up a judgment that men is to be a natural giver and the design of a woman is to be a natural receiver. That's why we're designed the way we are, and whenever I've done any Legos.

Speaker 1: 1:16:28

Yeah right, but there is. There is a thing men are wired to give and we have a goodness towards women we do. It's built in to protect a woman. It's built in to care about her feelings. It's built in.

Speaker 2: 1:16:41

We do have that not meant to be dominant, no, right.

Speaker 1: 1:16:44

Well, I mean like we're meant to be strong, but it's not meant to be like a negative strength and dominance.

Speaker 2: 1:16:50

You get what I mean like we don't need to be in control of everything there's a difference between power and force. You know there's a difference.

Speaker 1: 1:16:58

And so I'm with you on this one. But this is like you can't. Women can't physically toe-to-toe men. We're just upper body much too strong and we're faster Like we can't mess with us.

Speaker 2: 1:17:08

So you have to beat us Right, and they learned that a long time ago.

Speaker 1: 1:17:11

Right. But then you say but we want to make this game equal, but it's not about we both have the same challenge, let's beat it. It's well. If you are faster and stronger, you should be cut down or have to carry weights or do something to slow you down.

Speaker 2: 1:17:28

So that way it's equal. How about this? I agree with you and I'm only cutting you off because it bigged in my head and I apologize, but like the problem I think with it is still thinking of it as a game. Right that there's some sort of competition here of better or having more value. Why not a dance?

Speaker 1: 1:17:45

That's before you go to the dance. You just said better or more value, and that's where I think women are goofing up right now, as they're saying measure my value, not love me for who I am.

Speaker 1: 1:17:55

And the problem is is, then we'll go fine, what's your value? And then they go. Well, that's not fair, you know you go, but you just said treat you equal, measure what you bring to the table. Well, what do you bring to the table? And it's like, well, I am the table, and it's like that's not bringing anything, like I should just be getting what you have. And that's because you get me. It's like, well, but you said you wanted me to measure your value and not love you for who you are describing self-objectification correct and that's why I'm an object I'm an object of value in and of myself.

Speaker 2: 1:18:31

I need not do anything else. I show up and that's what brings to the table. I'm not saying we haven't gaslit them over centuries to believe this and we've created it like on a, you know, a mass scale society across the board. But that's the delusion. No, you don't Cause. None of us do. You have to also be kind. You have to also do things. You have to just showing up. We like your value. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:18:56

Oh, I know what you would have is if I. The only value you could have inherently is if I can move you around and use you. When you just show up and stand there, that's nothing.

Speaker 1: 1:19:06

Well. Well, that's the problem too is because this is where there is a issue that's going on. I'm going to lean this into a solution, not because we I think we've had this problem conversation a thousand times. I'm into a solution not because we I think we've had this problem conversation a thousand times. I'm gonna lead into a solution. Um, you and I have both done enough work in psychedelics to say we should really be able to explore the therapy element of this.

Speaker 1: 1:19:27

Well, that's just the recreation, but I actually do deep. I know that it's not legal at the moment but I do deep psychological um work with with psilocybin and mdma and I've been studying the shit out of this and it works. And if you want to have a relationship like a real conversation, I have never seen a stronger heart side psychedelic than MDMA. If you sit with your person and you go, let's do this, you will have conversations you've never been able to have before. You'll be able to. All of a sudden, your girl's irrationality becomes highly compassionate and listen to understand. I want to hear something. Funny Is the last three lives. On Wednesday we went on. We were on MDMA Because we wanted to show what's the effect and you see, between my girl and I there is so much love and you can feel the energy there and people like you guys are relationship goals. I'm like you guys should try getting out of your way. If you use this as a tool and not a crutch, you'll connect in a way you've never done before.

Speaker 2: 1:20:34

That involves humble pie right.

Speaker 1: 1:20:36

That's the hard part. You should be getting a full plate.

Speaker 2: 1:20:40

You know I understand I've said this too Humble pie can be bitter at first. It's not always fun to sort of be to react. You know it's owning a mistake, I was wrong, right, that's that feeling. But once you develop a taste for it, the way that your day-to-day sort of bio stability, you know like your homeostatic kind of situation, is much more frequent and calm and so it's just about gosh. It's amazing how you're right. It's about getting out of the way almost all of the time, right, our anxiety, our ego. It's not about you, right. And if you feel like you want attention, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 1:21:29

But this idea that just because you want, you deserve, and if you don't get what you want, then you throw a tantrum of some kind, even if it's small to big, that's the mistake, right? Just because I want doesn't mean I deserve. Every time I have a want I might be disappointed. I created the want. My disappointment was my like. You've got to understand and own a portion of every single thing. You know, like every bit of the trauma I went through and every relationship I went through. I was a little bit complicit because I was continuing to show up this concept of false, dichotomous, entire blame on either side is just wrong, it's nonsense.

Speaker 1: 1:22:11

It doesn't work either. I think we should call it instead of humble pie, we should call it humble vegetables.

Speaker 2: 1:22:16

Okay.

Speaker 1: 1:22:17

Well, because we know eating our vegetables is good for us, but they don't always taste the greatest. I don't always love it. Eat your vegetables. You're like I don't want to eat the vegetables, but it's really good for you I don't disagree, I don't disagree.

Speaker 2: 1:22:35

I think I just like saying with such verb, like you need some humble pie in your pie hole. So that's just the mindset for me there. Plus, you know, I like the concept of like. It's another thing that makes me think about like people say it all the time but don't think about it like have you ever tasted humble pie? And whatever's going on in your brain right now. Have you ever thought that way? Like you ever even gone any deeper into the concept? Because when you do, you start to discover a little bit more nuanced about a lot of those things. Right, the concept of forever promises, for example, like hey, rick, have you ever experienced forever?

Speaker 1: 1:23:16

Not yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2: 1:23:18

Sure, Sure. So if you have not yet experienced it, how do you know it's something worth aiming at? How do you know it's good? Like where's? Where's your proof that forever is a good thing?

Speaker 1: 1:23:29

And you have a promise forever about it, right?

Speaker 2: 1:23:33

I don't like that Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:23:35

Well it's. It's such a fun game on this one and you're making very good points and I like to try to put solutions in, not just the information. The part of the thing you're talking about have you promised for forever. The idea behind it starts going into heart side and spirit side. You know, this is where I'm. People try to force love. This is like I want that. Give it to me and you talked about that thing and I'll get back to that in a second but being able to say I want to make a commitment or a promise to you and it's intended to be forever.

Speaker 1: 1:24:07

Well, how do I know what forever is? How do I know if that's going to last? How do I know if we're not going to grow apart? How do I know? Well, I don't. And this is why the controls on the mind and body versus the heart and spirit side are different. They're backwards. On mind and body, surrender is quitting, failing. You lose, you're done, you're no good. But on heart and spirit, surrender is going way stronger. Because I don't force love, I let go and I fall in love. Well, what are you falling into? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:24:43

I don't think love could be forced. I think if you believe that it's even capable, whatever it is you're experiencing is not love. Love is not obligatory, right? It's always an offering, it's not a taking. I can't take love from you, I can only receive it from you, and if it's genuinely loved, then it's coming out of you lovingly and genuinely. So it's an offering, it's a gift, and any gift giving with obligation isn't a gift. It's a request for some form of exchange.

Speaker 2: 1:25:07

Right, we have this natural reciprocity thing, but to expect it is where we cross the line. The expectation creates the entitlement and all this other jazz I give you give, I give you give. That creates a balance, and we feel that If I expect or say I expect, or you say, suddenly it becomes obligatory and I'm not doing it because I want to, I'm doing it because you expect, maybe, and you start messing up the works and we're all guilty of it. It's not. You know, we're really messy as human beings. This is, I'm simplifying it as best I can, but I'm, you know, we're all. This is not how. There's no ideal.

Speaker 1: 1:25:47

Well, there is an ideal, but it requires surrender, requires sacrifice, requires the openness and not the control. And that's why we keep talking. The control keeps coming up over and over again and that's why I enjoy like the psilocybin or MDMA is to go like let go, yeah, let go and be, and you'll find your person is there. And this is where you said, well, if I don't get what I want, or if you don't do what I say, then I'll have a tantrum or I'll get mad or I'll be judgmental or I'll, you know, scream or yell or call you names or shame you or pull you down or kick your ass or whatever the thing is supposed to be.

Speaker 1: 1:26:19

This is where you train your people to understand that it's not about these circumstances that define who someone is. They reveal them to themselves. Well, this is how they're coping with loss. But this is you, and this is where people don't want to have you, to have the awareness, because I want to control the information. So you don't see me, but if I just look at what you're doing, you're right there. And this does leave me with a consistent amount of choice, and I think that this is where people think. Commitment means I don't do inventory.

Speaker 1: 1:26:51

Oh right, Take it in effect. We're together, so you shouldn't be looking at what I'm doing anymore. You should just do whatever I say. We're together, so you shouldn't be looking at what I'm doing anymore. You should just do whatever I say. You're like? Wait a?

Speaker 2: 1:26:59

second, there's that word again.

Speaker 1: 1:27:00

We should always be checking our inventory. How are we doing? How are we doing? How is our love? How's our connection? How's our health? How's our wealth? How's our growth? How's our potential together? How's our growth? How's our potential together? How's our listening? You know, how are we doing? Like, are we having enough time together? Are we, you know, connected in a way? Do we appreciate love languages at all? Do we even know what they are? Right, here's a fun thing. I just I just did a video on this. I noticed our guys are really big on doing service, love languages, gift giving. Big. I'm doing service, love languages, gift giving, exo service, even quality time will be very heavy, but when it comes to receiving, almost all of my guys were words of affirmation or touch, which means appreciate me and physically love me. And it doesn't always mean sex, it just means like thank you, babe. Or grab his muscles and go oh, you're so strong, or whatever. Just something. Or scratches back, or you know.

Speaker 2: 1:27:56

Know, it's funny that you bring that up, because I was recently and hopefully you won't put this on it, don't put this on the thing, this is more of a private moment but, um, what was it she had said to me? I got into it with my girl about something like this and, oh, it just fell out of my head because I was too worried about whether or not I was going to be vulnerable in this moment. What did you just say before? Bring me back.

Speaker 1: 1:28:19

All right. So I was actually really excited for what you were going to say, so I'm sure it's important but yeah, all right, so we were talking about. No, I forgot what we were talking about. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say and also, I think, be vulnerable man, put it out there Like I'm just trying to remember what I'm not.

Speaker 2: 1:28:36

I'm not, I'm not a friend. I was just trying to get it right. I remember it and it's just my brain's got. Oh, you know, I'm so excited to chat in these moments, especially chat with a like-minded person. It's going to be so refreshing. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:28:48

It doesn't happen a lot for me because quite often when I bring this stuff up up, people just start you know like yeah, and or countering it or whatever, and my brain just goes okay, you're not open to it, and so you end up not talking about it so much, which leads to making content. Anyway, she had said we were just talking about energy dynamic of some kind of thing, and it was a should crap. It'll come back to me, hopefully.

Speaker 1: 1:29:17

If it does, I'll, I'll put my hand up now listen that short-term memory, or also we operate so quickly that we're ready to do like the next 10 chest moves yeah yeah. So we're already like oh, I know what you're gonna do, I'm gonna do this. Oh, that sounds exciting. I love that you did that. Let's do this.

Speaker 2: 1:29:35

You know, like what drives me the most nuts is this concept of like no, that's what it was, it's this belittling. You were saying love languages, that's what it is. Got it, got it and compliments. She finds me very attractive, like she's vocalized that plenty of times that I'm handsome, that I'm cute, that I'm. You know she likes my body and all this other stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:30:02

But a lot of my trauma comes from objectification. A lot of people have tricked me by complimenting my vanity into controlling me because I was just simple enough to go oh, thanks. And then I ended up being someone's pet or toy or Butler or or bodyguard or whatever. I was a tool being used and being pre like a pre a good looking tool, but still that, and I have explained that to her. So it's like when you compliment me and tell me I'm handsome, I don't give a shit that you're enjoying that part.

Speaker 2: 1:30:42

I know that sounds harsh to say. I'm not trying to belittle your experience. I'm not even telling you to stop it, but understand that when you tell me that it doesn't actually do anything for me, so that doesn't count. That's not my love, love language. What I need to have respected through decades of gaslighting is my ability to perceive reality correctly. So I need to feel appreciated for my mind, of course that's, but that, for me personally, as an individual, sits higher than any form of physical compliment that could be lobbed my way. My mother, you're a good, handsome boy, good boy, christopher, like I'm, and I have been a good boy for my whole life, and I got fucking walked over my whole fucking life.

Speaker 1: 1:31:26

So it's like which part of the country are you in, chris?

Speaker 2: 1:31:29

I'm in long beach right now. I grew up in Hawaii, but my I was born in Minnesota. Parents split when I was four in 1983 and mom moved to maui and dad stayed in minneapolis in california.

Speaker 1: 1:31:39

Is that where you're?

Speaker 1: 1:31:40

at now I'm in california yeah, and so culturally, like, the vanity element is very, very strong that side oh you know, and so like this is where I'm, I'm a northeasterner, so like it goes into what's your proficiency, not how beautiful are you, and so that's where I'm with you, where it's like you can man, you're really handsome, or whatever, I'm like, yeah, thank you. I really don't have a lot of use for that. I'm with you. That's not really helpful for me. But to go, damn, you're fucking smart dude, or geez, your perception is higher than anyone I've ever seen. Or how did you work through that so quickly? Damn, your processor is amazing, like those things.

Speaker 2: 1:32:16

My girlfriend said something like that to me. She would like that's, that's, that's validation.

Speaker 1: 1:32:22

But that's proficiency and this is where understanding and this is words of affirmation. Still, it's just going to be in one certain categories, cause if I'm like, wow, you got real cool shoes, you're like, I guess, thanks, but I'm not my shoes, so I don't know that it doesn't do much for me but to say, damn, you are brilliant man, I have met some brilliant people, but you are so exciting to talk to, and you go like, oh yeah, all right, well, he gets it. You know.

Speaker 2: 1:32:46

Like sort of motivation too, cause I've had her say to me like if I make myself pretty, it doesn't like it doesn't get you excited and it's like, because you're doing it for me and I never asked you to do it and say there was a flaw You're improving something you think is flawed into an improved version of your perception. I never said you were wrong, as you were. So, dressing up with your nails and all this other stuff, I can acknowledge it looks great. But you really want me to treat you differently. That's to diminish who you are all the flipping time. What are you talking about, right? So like it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't wear my clothes or cut my hair for other people's appreciation. I do it so I'm comfortable with myself.

Speaker 1: 1:33:30

If you don't, we don't have the same burdens. But you have burden of performance and that's why you want to be measured based on your value for how much I can perform. They have burden of beauty because we measure far more physical than we do emotional, at least initially, and so like they have burden of beauty that's been pounded in them by other women since they were 11. So like that's not really a fair fight. Now they have both burden of performance and burden of beauty.

Speaker 1: 1:33:49

I I have a lot of empathy because women are falling apart because you're getting overwhelmed, because they can't do it all. Men are falling apart because they're getting overwhelmed because they can't do it all, and so there's that too. But I have a fun authenticity thing for you, and I did this survey with my women because they thought well, when I dress to the nines, he gives me more attention than when I'm just wearing my PJs or dressed down or whatever, and so like what's that? He doesn't love me as much unless I dress up. I'm like you, ladies don't really understand how men work. You're missing the third option, which is the most authentic of all which version of your girl do you appreciate the most? When she gets all dressed up, when she's just wearing her slobby clothes, her like pink clothes or whatever clothes, or when she's wearing no clothes. Which one are you like? Can I have that one right now, please?

Speaker 2: 1:34:39

Usually the no clothes.

Speaker 1: 1:34:40

Now that's the most authentic version of her that there is. There's no dress up, there's no pretending. It's the most authentic one. I'm like you want your guy to appreciate you lose the shirt. It's not get sparkles, it's not get makeup, it's lose the shirt, it's not get sparkles, it's not get makeup. It's lose the shirt and be who you are, like guys across the board.

Speaker 2: 1:35:02

That was the answer yeah, flex your vulnerable self fearlessly sounds sexy to every guy, as far as I know. Like you know, it's it, and I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do. I, I and I and I got to even like really acknowledge the mountain that that must feel like from a female perspective, and I'm only speculating, you know what I mean To be able to step into that and you're right, from all the toxic propaganda, bombardment over centuries, I don't really know the right answer to that. All I know for sure is that dressing and covering and concealing more isn't exposing the real you. It isn't showing me who you really are. It's showing me something you can be if you choose to be when you want to be, which is great. So that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's this weird sort of thing Again. It's like you don't need to measure up better.

Speaker 2: 1:35:59

There's all it's a whole thing. I just realized it's time and I got to wrap this up with you. I gotta, I gotta get to work here. So I just caught onto that. But I know and I'll cut that off there and let you take it.

Speaker 1: 1:36:11

People get it. They can, we can be authentic through this, and I think it's a good thing. No, I love talking to you, man, I really appreciate you, and I think next time we can go a little bit wilder, and so we'll plan for that next time. But now it's good too, because we get to have this interaction, because a lot of people will see our TikTok videos or they'll see a clip of something we'll create and think they get it. But it's good when you go, let me really talk with you, and then you go, man, now I get this guy. Yeah, now I get this guy. This guy's not the bullshit that I saw in that four minute video. This guy talks this way.

Speaker 2: 1:36:44

It's hard too. It's very hard, isn't it? We always want to be able to, from the jump project and like I can read people and it's like I think that's where that humble pie has got to be served with it, like when you think you're good at now, believe in yourself and your ability to read, but never delude yourself into thinking you can't be fooled because it's like it's that whole. There's always whatever. So take your time and assess slowly and trust your instincts Really trust your instincts. They might be wrong in the beginning, but if they're wrong then you learn and you adjust.

Speaker 2: 1:37:17

It comes like the only way to actually calibrate your instincts is to trust them and then fail and then get them better. Trust in other people's instincts is just not the way to go. It just isn't. You know what I mean and be careful when you do. I'm not saying you should never, you know, because I don't believe in shoulds or nevers, but still it's an instinctual thing and I feel the same way about you. It's like like we're not the same person at all. We're very unique, individual people who've gone through similar shared experiences, because we're humans and we're guys and there's a lot of things to talk about. Is one smarter than the other, better, worse, more, less. No, that, we never get into that, and that's why we know that we're comfortable with each other, because this whole thing has felt a lot more like a dance. There's been some stumbly steps. I've been guilty, I know, but it's been more of a dance than any kind of competitive tennis match, correct?

Speaker 1: 1:38:10

And that's where I think people in the conversation, like you said as a skill, is able to see how do you guys play the dance instead of competing to win right well done.

Speaker 1: 1:38:23

All right, got that my dude, chris. It's been an honor man. I really appreciate the time that we've had together. So thank you so much for this, and I would like to do more in the future, and I really do. I want to, I want to have us do uh, next time we do an episode, I want to do a too hot for tv where only the patreon subscribers can get it, because we went too far out there and I'd like to be. I'd like to be able to do one of those episodes too I'm down absolutely sounds awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:38:50

All right, brother, go enjoy and dominate this day at work and we'll be in touch. I'll talk to you later, okay take care, rick. Thanks again man, you're welcome.