127. The Alchemy of Psychedelics and Emotional Resilience with James Eshleman

Step onto the battlefield of the mind as we journey with James Eshleman into the transformative power of psychedelics. Our insightful guest, a conservative-turned-psychedelic guide, shares his compelling transition and helps us navigate the often-misunderstood substances such as ayahuasca and psilocybin. Through a tapestry of personal anecdotes and hard-earned wisdom, we dissect the layers of emotional healing and the development of inner strength. Confronting our darkest corners with the aid of these powerful compounds, James illuminates the pathway to rewriting traumatic narratives and achieving a renaissance of the self.

As warriors of personal growth, we recognize that true strength lies not in the armor we wear but in the walls we tear down within. James and I explore the 'warrior's way'—a harmonious mindset connecting body, mind, spirit, and heart, and the importance of emotional maturity in our relationships. This episode is a clarion call to men grappling with their emotions and the power of camaraderie in personal development. We delve into the delicate balance of vulnerability and strength, discussing how healing trauma through psychedelic therapy can transcend into everyday life, fostering empathy and connection.

Closing out this empowering session, we cast a vision for a society transformed by individual empowerment, envisioning a future where holistic healing methods supplant the numbing effects of conventional pharmaceuticals. James shares his plans to widen access to these profound experiences, inviting listeners to support each other in our collective quest for healing. Join us on this episode, an intersection of self-discovery and societal transformation, challenging and inspiring you to courageously confront your inner battles and embrace the full spectrum of human experience.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

roll all right. What's up, warriors? Welcome back to the battlefield of mind. I'm rick, and today I'm here with with james, and it's james, I'm gonna need you to tell them what you do, who you are, because I really do have some questions for today, that there's probably some stuff that people don't know or have been misled on that you're going to be able to help them with today. So, james, tell them who you are.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Yeah, my name is James Ashman. I'm a psychedelic guide, menswear coach, transformational coach, ceremonialist, and I've been guiding people in psychedelic spaces for the better part of five or six years and started getting into psychedelic work about seven years ago. I began my career in finance and got to a point about 2017 where my life really needed to fall apart, and in that falling apart, I found psychedelics for myself and, and through the path of service with psychedelics, I really began to find who I am.

Speaker 1: 1:21

All right. Now there's a lot of people who are going to be like I remember in the 90s man, it was dare, we were going to, we were, we were in a battle against drugs and psychedelics is drugs. So are you like a drug guy? Because I don't know much about it, but I remember having to do the DARE program.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, the DARE program was a part of my childhood and I remember having, you know, like the I think there were, like the, um, the advertisements on television with, like you know, the, the woman who was sunken into the couch and it was like, if you do drugs, this is what you'll look like, you know, and uh, and scrambled eggs or whatever yeah, that too yeah this is your mind on drugs yeah um and uh and so, like I, I just remember, like through my, through my childhood, uh, being terrified of drugs and um, uh, but.

Speaker 2: 2:20

But then I think it was around like college years where things started to soften up for me, started experimenting with some substances, um, but, but didn't find my way to psychedelics until I was kind of until 2017. You know, ayahuasca was actually the first psychedelic that I I got into, but um, uh, but I, I think, you know, I I definitely grew up in like a conservative household. So, you know, nancy Reagan, dare to say no to drugs was very much a part of my upbringing.

Speaker 1: 2:51

Yeah, it was mine too. I also also I did. I was not a drug person at all. Drinking we would party our hearts out, but drugs was not my game. I was with you on that one until much later, when I started researching this stuff. Well, for those of the people who don't know, there's a lot of people who know what ayahuasca is, but there's a lot of people who are like what the heck's ayahuasca like? What is that? So maybe you can help them out. Explain what. What are you talking about? What are you doing?

Speaker 2: 3:19

yeah, ayahuasca is about a. I think it's roots trace back to about 2500 years ago, um and it's uh originated in the sacred valley of peru.

Speaker 2: 3:31

Um, it's a, it's a a brew. So this is a tea that is essentially two combined elements one is the copy vine and, uh, the chacruna leaf, and these are native plants to the jungle of south america and um, so you put these plants in a big old vat of water and you cook it down and essentially, essentially, what you get out of it is a substance known as DMT, dimethyltryptamine, which is a really potent, powerful psychedelic compound, and you get an MAOI inhibitor that slows down the digestion of the DMT in the system, slows down the digestion of the DMT in the system. So, uh, you know, without that MAOI DMT would be metabolized through the system in about 10 to 15 minutes. And um and so, when, when you combine the two, you get a trip that lasts about two hours, depending on the size of the dose, um, but it's it's an extraordinarily potent psychedelic Um.

Speaker 2: 4:34

People call it kind of like the God molecule, um, in that it uh creates this vision through the fabric of reality, deeper into uh sort of this God consciousness space, um, which is both incredibly exhilarating and also can be quite frightening, especially on the healing path, but it's in its spirit of the plant, ayahuasca has a spirit known as grandmother, and the spirit is, I mean, if you think about, like the archetypal grandmother that you know she's soft, loving, kind, generous, but firm and strong. You know, she'll tell you when you're fucking up, she'll tell you when you're off your path, but she'll lovingly embrace all of you and tell you how to get back onto your path. And I think that's a really cool facet of this medicine that's unique to it.

Speaker 1: 5:35

Yeah, that's pretty cool. As far as the grandmother Also, the MAOI, like. I didn't even know about that element Again, I haven't played with this one yet, so like. But I have heard the God molecule, I have heard it goes that way. But then there's also like misconceptions, because I've also heard people have to go through where these psychedelics will give you what you need. But some people need to get things out of their system and I've heard some bad stories, but I've also heard some very deep, connected stories. Maybe you could help debunk some of the myths or help people out with some of the stereotypes that are out there.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Yeah, it's definitely a potent medicine. Like, I wouldn't recommend this to anybody, um, especially you know it's. It's really important to consider your psychological, psycho-spiritual disposition. Um, if you have really rigid, firm beliefs and you're very neurotic and super controlling, this is going to be a really tough medicine for you to work with, because it's going to force you to experience the psychosomatic tension that you're living with on a daily basis because of that neurosis, and that's where people, I think, really tend to struggle.

Speaker 2: 6:45

And then there's kind of the way in which the imagery can be presented within this with, with this particular medicine is it can present the deep, you know, elements of the psyche, you know the deep unconscious and presented in very scary images.

Speaker 2: 7:02

I mean, it's not unusual to see, uh, demonic figures or, uh, you know, some kind of compelling darkness that feels soulless. Some kind of compelling darkness that feels soulless, um, or or, or something even frightening that's happened in the past that you know you've maybe buried in your psyche and and has remained hidden from you, um, and and. So if you have these really rigid, rigidly held beliefs around the experience of your reality and you're not ready to see what ayahuasca has to show you, you, um, it can be extraordinarily challenging, both to experience it and actually heal through it, and then also on the back end, like, integrate that experience, um, it can induce states of psychosis, um, at times, especially for people who have you know, know, um, uh, uh, family history or personal history of bipolar schizophrenia, um and uh, or, or you know, if you're again, if you're just really highly neurotic or you know, bordering on sort of a psychotic break. It can, it can influence a psychotic break too. So it's, there is a risk to it for sure, but it also has a lot of healing capacity.

Speaker 1: 9:11

Yeah, that risk. Grandmother doesn't play around. No, grandma don't play, you're going to get your licks in on this one. But yeah, that's crazy. I'm with you too whenever it comes to the psychedelic element. People who won't let go of the need to control everything end up having the roughest ride, like they're like I need to control, I need to control, and it's like no, this is surrender control, not try to force control. Life is not in your control and it's a really big eye opener on this one. Um, here's one that scares me Maybe you can debunk or explain.

Speaker 1: 9:46

Is, uh, the purging element. Maybe people have heard people who take a lot of maybe medication or people who have eaten very poorly in their life and don't take care of themselves. Let's get rid of the toxins that we don't need that are stored inside of you, and I've heard people having to vomit or, you know, go number two pretty hard because it needs to expel toxins or medication that's unneeded in the body. What are some of the experiences with that? Is that a thing or is that not a thing?

Speaker 2: 10:25

You know, it's definitely a thing and, in fact, like, purging is one of my favorite aspects of working with this medicine, because, um, it's a super easy way to get rid of an energy that you've been holding on to throughout your life.

Speaker 2: 10:41

At some point in your life, right, um, it could be something that it's been ingested, whether it's's, you know, a poor diet, or you know you've been on medications or, um, you know, maybe even some sort of parasite, um, that you have in your system, um, and then you get into, like, the energetics of it all too, which is which I think is really interesting.

Speaker 2: 11:01

You know, we're like nodes of organic matter moving around the planet, right, and we're absorbing the energy of the environments that we walk in, and we live in a world that is fundamentally toxic, both in terms of chemicals, substances, processed foods, the air that we breathe. And then, two, like the people like you know, there's a lot of people who are just walking around projecting their shitty energy onto other people, and and you know it's it's it's silly to think that we're not, you know, absorbing a lot of that in our system. And then, two, from our upbringing and everything that we absorbed as as sponges, both like all the way from the womb through childhood and onto adolescence and into adulthood is that I think purging really provides us the opportunity to let go of an energy that's really hard to name, where the source of that energy comes from right, so like maybe not have a spiritual or a psychological digestive process about it, but actually like a somatic releasing and digesting of that energy that's an interesting thing, man.

Speaker 1: 12:17

That's crazy to me because, like, you don't really think about how much, like your doom scrolling is going to affect what your body is absorbing. That's 100%'s a wild thought, but didn't have a thing. And this is where I think it's cool, because training to let go mind side is that cognitive element I work in, that that's where I work is like let's identify it so we can know which things need to go. But this stuff goes into, like this is the storage bin that you marked. It's all good, that's not good, and we're gonna have to go and get that out of here. And I'm not asking you, I'm making you do it. You're like, I didn't want to go in there, I didn't want to go in, and now you have to let that out. Now it's got to get out of there.

Speaker 2: 12:56

That's a powerful man, it's like the catacombs of our psyche. You know it's this deeply. You know dark dungeony. You know dark dungeon-y, you know kind of murky place where we store, like, the self-hatred that other people are projecting onto us, or you know the comparison, or the shame, the guilt, the trauma. It's like we take all of that in and store it in the deepest realms of our experience and our psyche and it's really hard, I think, to get there, um, without you know a depth of work within psychedelics, or to like to have some kind of a really rich, you know, spiritual practice, um, that allows you to scrape off as much as you can off of your experience to gain access to those deeper places.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yeah, and I see you lean so hard spirit side because, like I work, really it's cool that you way you've purged it out the physical element of purging the emotional element, of purging the spiritual and and the mental element. I think that we are a balance and it's cool when that's one thing I noticed with psychedelics I haven't done ayasca, but I've done other psychedelics to go that stuff's right there and, like you go, oh, now I'll be, I'll be open. The psychedelic stories I've heard for ayahuasca scared the crap out of me. Man, I'm like ah, it's a little aggressive for me, but the way you're explaining it sounds a little more exciting to me, cause you're like no, it goes into like this, this really terrifying area, and maybe this is just a warrior in me who's like well, that sounds kind of cool. Actually, I'd like to. I'd like to every time I look for it. Now it's a cleaned out room, so maybe there's a basement I don't know about. All right, I'm interested. You know, like now I'm listening.

Speaker 2: 14:42

Yeah, that is a warrior's way, man. To carry the light that you already have in your heart down into the depths of the basement is like is there a higher calling?

Speaker 1: 14:51

than that. Yeah Well, also being able to know where that's at to go. I know where you are, I'm coming to get you. Like that's exciting. That's probably part of like I haven't seen what the like you said you've assisted or you've done like these four people. I don't know what your role is, but I know that whenever I work with people, I journey in with them. Now I'm not on the psychedelics, but I'll go in with the questions and I'll be with them through their memories. They're creating what we're going into and I'm with you through whatever battles that we're going to come up, whatever demons come out, whatever things are there, I'll fight alongside, alongside of you and so when I'm in with you, I'm with you. So I'm very active when I work with somebody yeah, and that's.

Speaker 2: 15:35

that's amazing. And I, I think I think you know, I, I work in much the same way. I, um, I've facilitated 70 or 80 ayahuasca ceremonies and about 200 psilocybin journeys over the last five years and, um, amidst all of that, you know just crazy stories of people who are who go to really dark places and if you're not going to hold like that, like that's, you know there's nobody else that can hold that space for them. It's like you just step into that and, uh, I, I think it, yeah, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength and a lot of trust, too, in your own light, you know, in your capacity to maintain your sovereignty and your sense of self as you're coming upon some really robust darkness you take, we take on a lot it.

Speaker 1: 16:23

When I do those days it drains me, that's for sure, because it's a real battle. Yeah, I think you can relate, because you take on their mountains. That's the way I see it is. I take on the mountain of pain, the mountain of hurt that they've had on them the whole time and I'll take that from you. But then I have to go take that somewhere. I can't carry it, and then that's where we have our outlets also. Yeah, like honor to you for that stuff, cause it's tough, that's not easy work.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yeah, yeah, I'm curious if I can, if I can turn this back around on you and ask you kind of like your practice of how you, how you, how you work with that.

Speaker 1: 16:58

Yeah, at first, like this was before I really got more into like really studying through the NLP stuff and getting into the like, the more psychology stuff. So I do more cognitive, behavioral stuff and LP and then I get into all the NVCs and I there's a lot, of, a lot of acronyms that I practiced and so once I started getting into those with a lot of actual practical applications, seeing things like through experience and working with people and how people really work behaviorally, I'm even writing my second book now on like correlations between how we grieve, how we control and cope, and then how we, you know, work through fear, doubt, distractions and excuses. All are lined up and they're all beatable the same way if you know what the patterns are. But I've noticed that nobody has put those together yet and I'm like those are right there, guys, you don't see. So that's the next book I've coming out this year with is the map out of hell. It's part of this map that I've got here but it gets into like don't you see how these are all connected and all beatable the same way if you see the lineup. And so that's the book that's coming out this year on this and so I take this information. I take what I'm able to do with this and and I've done more psilocybin runs than anything else. It's the most controlled element that I've got, because we can go as far as we need to, but psilocybin shows you what you need and so it'll take you to the spot where you're like oh God, why am I going here? It's like because that's what you need. So let's go in the spot where you're like I've been avoiding that, and so then I'll go in.

Speaker 1: 18:28

I'll do a lot more of that journey, and then we'll use rewiring or we'll make a new memory, or I'll go in as you as an adult, to a place where you were hurt when you were a kid. And I've had experiences where we make a new memory, where we may be rescuing little you, or you may be taking the place of little you as an adult now and go try and hurt and also a lot of these molesters and people who like to do terrible things. They get a lot less handsy when I'm around. It's weird, you know. They don't like it when I'm there and I'm very confrontational and I'm not easy to fight, so they don't like it when I'm there, and so it's a very interesting experience, because we make new memories, because the memories are already corrupted as it is. The emotions are amplified, the details are all fuzzy, things get very weird. We add in, you know, pieces of the scenario based on other experiences. They're all corrupted, so let's go rebuild them then. And then a lot of these experiences, we can take people's power back, because these memories don't give power away. You have to take it back, and that's where I bring warriors in, and so I usually train with people for months, uh, to really have all of the tools they need for some of these battles before we go in there. So we have a strategy, we have a plan.

Speaker 1: 19:44

I think people will go in with tactics and not strategy, but, like Sun Tzu says, that's just noise before defeat, Like, let's get, let's get a plan. What are you fighting? I know I've got this in there and I know I was hurt like this, and I know this abuse or abandonment was there, and I know that the PTSD is there. I know it's there. I'm like, well then, let's train how that works and then let's go hard. I'll have my shield next to your shield and I'll walk right in and remember this thing's weakness, remember your training, let's go and get this thing.

Speaker 1: 20:15

Well, what's really funny, and here's the truth to it Sometimes I'll be training to fight Cerberus and we'll be training to fight this three headed demon dog. And I'm like let's go, you ready, dog. And I'm like, let's go, you ready. I'm like, I'm like you ready, I've killed these before. They're fucking tough, open it up. And they're like I'm, I'm ready, man, we've been training, I'm ready. They open the door and it's like this cute little puppy. And I'm like that's not a cerberus. But they're like well, I was four.

Speaker 1: 20:40

The thing was terrifying. When I was four. I'm like, yeah, this thing, this, this thing, these belly rubs, not killing. And they're like well, I just didn't open this for 30 years. I'm like I get it, like that's a, this is a puppy, rub its belly. See, that's not so scary. And this nightmare that we were training to battle sometimes isn't that thing. It's just it was big at the time. But now you're like that's not. I just had it closed off for so long. I didn't want to go in there. And sometimes it's not. Not what we were training for. And don't get me wrong, I've had demons come out there's. Sometimes it's like the thing that we were training is there. That's the thing. And then we have to fight that that happens.

Speaker 2: 21:22

But there's a lot of times where, like we go in there and go like I was expecting this to be much tougher than that, I'm like, yeah well, when you know how to fight it, it's not so bad right, right, so that that's kind of what comes to mind is it was like the the perspective around it had been built within their psyches beforehand that, by the time that they confronted it, the the perspective allowed them to, to open up the space to hold it so that it wasn't so confronting in the outer edges of their psyche and experience. Right.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Yeah, yeah. Once we go in there, the thing's not, it's like beatable. And there's things too the inner doubt, the self-critics, the fears that we challenge to go. Are they real or not real? The things that we go in and we battle to see is that a real thing or not a real thing? Let's see what it is and, like some of it's simply just like no, somebody put a belief system in there that doesn't match your authenticity. So let's challenge it and see if it works.

Speaker 1: 22:21

And they're like no, this is from my dad or my ex, you know, my stepfather or whatever. You know it came from something. And you're like well, is that belief yours or is that theirs? Like well, fuck, it's not mine, it's theirs. I'm like so do you want to keep it or do you want to put something authentic there? And I'm like, well, it can't be that simple. I'm like it's simple. It doesn't mean it's that easy, but it is that simple. Are you going to keep their belief there or are you going to put yours there? It's got only one slot right.

Speaker 1: 22:55

And they're like fuck, yeah, I think I'm going to get rid of theirs, I don't need that. I'm like let's put yours in. Do you believe in yourself now, like I really do. They're like how's that feel? Feels way better. I'd rather believe in myself than my stepdad's old belief system that I'm a useless piece of shit. I don't like that one as much. I'm like well, it doesn't seem accurate either. Yeah, I don't need that. I'm going to let that go. I'm going to get rid of that and, like you said, it's a big. It just speeds up the let go process. You can do it, I think. Tell me if you've had a similar experience. I can do anywhere from 10 to 15 years of therapy in less than eight hours, oh for sure for sure.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Yeah, I had a client um I worked with him with uh five grams of psilocybin mushrooms um maybe a year and a half ago the hero's dose yeah, hero's dose and uh of some really potent mushrooms and um, and we did a really robust preparation process, everything checked out, get him into the journey. In about two hours into the journey he sits up straight, looks at me and I just see the sheer terror in his eyes and so I I drop into his space and try to start to like work with him and discern kind of what's going on for him. But he's so deep in it it's hard for him to communicate and so he starts just running away from me, like energetically and like in the space to moving away from me. Eventually he runs out of the house that I was facilitating this journey and leads me on a two mile foot chase through his neighborhood. Is like tearing trash cans down, walking up to neighbors, um, and begins to terrify some neighbors so they call the police on him.

Speaker 2: 24:35

I get him back to his house and in his house he's going through this process and I can tell he's got this demon that he's confronting and I took on the form of this demon for him. He projected his demon onto me and so he's running away from me and I get him back to the house and he goes. You know what I need to do. I know I I need to kill you and it's not like a like he actually needs to kill me, but it was like the psychological. You know he needs to like execute this demon, um, but he charges me and so there was this like spiritual battle at the same time as this like physical battle going on and I could, you know, it was really intense and really dark.

Speaker 2: 25:18

And I finally get him back to uh, get him back to his bedroom, and I and I've got him laid down on his bed and I got my hand on his chest, I go, I just asked him, like what, what's going on? I'm like what, why are you fighting me? And his eyes open, after, like uh, after being shut for a little while, he looks me dead in the eyes and he tells me that he had experienced sexual assault from his brother at five years old and he had repressed that memory the whole time. And and I just sat in the depth of that for a moment and I looked at him, I told him I go, it's not your fault.

Speaker 2: 25:54

And he had internalized that his whole life that it was his fault. So it was a story about the thing that was actually the demon for him, that he was responsible for this violent act and that he couldn't do anything about it. And then, in short order, I mean there was like six hours of just chaos in that journey and in the matter of 10-15 minutes, everything lifted, everything clarified and he was just like there, open heart, wide open heart, full of love, and it was like it was the coolest, most unbelievable thing for me to experience that's wild man.

Speaker 1: 26:36

Usually I'll be, I'll be locking arms with them like I'll be like locked in so they can feel my strength, that I'm with them. But I've never had anybody ever want to get confrontational with it. That's wild man. I never had anybody run away or anything. I'm like no, no, no, stay with this, I'm with you. You know like it's a lot different. I've never had anybody go. I I'm, you're the fucking demon. I'm like I've never. I've never had that yet. That's wild, dude. It's a wild thing I've had to do. I've gone into the sexual assaults and I've gone into those. I've never had anybody do that thing where they run two miles. Also the endurance on this motherfucker, damn the two mile run terrorizing everybody.

Speaker 2: 27:14

I'm like that's, that's wild man yeah, dude, and like normally I'll, you know, I'll sit in ceremonies and I'll have like more like, uh you know, ceremonial, like leisure garb. I might wear like tennis shoes to somebody's house. That day in particular, I had a button-up shirt on with like jeans and like boots. So I'm chasing after this guy all on dress that's so funny, that's wild man, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 27:41

What a, what a crazy story. But to have them go, like I have to kill you, like in that moment you're like, like, like spiritually right. Yeah, I'm not about to really get murdered right now, really that I've never even had the experience, but I have. I've had to have wild stuff where, like, well, we'll lock it. I'll lock hands and be like, wow, they're in, I'll be sitting next to, like their, their bed or wherever they're at. I'll be locking arms and be like I'm with you, let's get it. Like, don't run from this, let's get this. And uh, that's been very effective.

Speaker 1: 28:19

I've also created memories in. This is maybe where, like, my aggressive posturing and my strength will come in, because I'm a trained fighter, like in a train with very powerful guys. I know what I'm doing and I've had situations with, uh, grandfathers who had molested or uncles that had molested, where we'll go into those memories and they'll go don't't ever fucking touch me again, and they take their power back. Then I'll say, all right, you said your piece. I'm going to hang with grandpa for a little bit, I'm going to hang with your uncle for a minute. You go ahead, I'll catch up in a second and then come back and go like they'll never do that again. Just know that our conversation guarantees they'll never do that ever again. And they're like, yeah, because now they have a protector in their memories, they have somebody who was there to keep them safe, right, and now they're like now I know I'll be safe from now on. And just, we created a new memory, we went into one and rewrote the history. We took your power back and then we made sure you're safe and it'll never happen again.

Speaker 1: 29:22

And we create a new memory while we're in there. And then they come out and they go man, thank you, like I didn't. When I was that age, no one saved me, no one kept me safe from that. They didn't believe me. And we go in and we'll rescue. We've had it both. Where they are the person or where we rescue, their little selves and their adult version will grab little them and go. We're getting the fuck out of here. Like it's very. It's fascinating what our brains can do with like the memories and the stuff that we have in there.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Yeah, and that's such a big part of healing too, to like to alchemize the protector parts. Cause it, it's, it's the protector parts that are still protecting that innocent child that is often creating the self-sabotage that's recapitulating that experience so that they can create the conditions where somebody is finally going to come and save them, which continues to make them the victim of their circumstance, which then they don't have any power or control over it. Right, but the second you alchemize that protector part, it, like it, becomes a massive asset. You realize that like that's your knight in shining armor and that part of you has always been there.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Yes, that's why I train warriors, because I've got damsels and victims who I train to be warriors. And you bring the warrior in to protect your child that's you and protect inner child. So I didn't understand any of this until a few years ago because there's a huge surrender element you have to go into. Just in case you're wondering where's the inner child. It's heart side. I didn't know that, didn't know it's in your heart, because I did a lot of spirit work but I didn't find inner child there. And I did a deep mind side, psychology, philosophy that was my bread and butter didn't find children there. And then I went into all the body side element the workouts, the action, the go, kick ass, all that stuff it wasn't, wasn't in there, it's in your heart. That's where your heart side. When I cracked that open and I found my inner child, let me just tell you I wasn't a crier but I became one. So I'm like man, the hurt that this little kid carries and there was no protector. But the body side, the warrior element of me, became like the inner child's, like best friend, right, you know, started looking out for him. That's the one who hangs out with him the most. Yeah, and my warrior side. You, you'll fight a fucking building, a 16 story dragon. He's like, you want me to kill it like. He's like I I refer to this as a I don't know how old you are, but there was an old show back in the 90s called Mighty Max. It was the. He had the cap that would teleport with him and he had, like, his protector was the greatest warrior of all time was this Viking badass named Norman, and Norman was the greatest warrior in history and he was the protector of the cap bearer, if you will. And Norman was that big Viking who was like you want me, you want me to kill it. Like, oh, is it my turn? Do you want me to kill that? Like? Like, whatever it was, it didn't matter if it was a little goblin or if it was a giant monster he's like is it my turn? Do you want to kill that Do? Or he's like is it my turn? Do you want to kill that you want? Okay, I got it. He did wrong and he just didn't matter what it was. It could be the biggest thing or the smallest thing. You want me to kill it and that's my warrior side. Like you, you want that dead. I got you, you ready.

Speaker 1: 32:48

My inner child did not have the protector, but my warrior side was so trained that he could also be vulnerable and encouraging and loving and playful still dangerous, but doesn't need to be. And so like, uh, my, my warrior side would go into this hurt little eight-year-old kid who was just not not good to play with, not loved, not protected, not safe, and be able to play with them, let them win games and shit, make a big deal about it. Yeah, you know he'd hang out with him. But I have had moments too where when you're working through these things, where you're trying to test out what is the heart side capable of and you'll have people who don't know how to handle that.

Speaker 1: 33:33

And have you ever had that thing, just like your guy did, where, like the warrior comes out and goes don't you dare fuck with the kid. And then you start getting into like I was trying to open up and be vulnerable to somebody who doesn't know how to handle that. And then the other one comes in and goes you fucked up like you're gonna hurt the kid, you're gonna go through me, you know. And then it gets really hostile, really quick, and so I don't know. That's probably where your guy was like I have to kill you. Like you got the wrong one came out. You're trying to go save the little kid and the warrior comes out like james, I have to kill you.

Speaker 2: 34:08

You're the demon, like metaphorically, right, metaphorically, please don't fucking kill me which would have been a lot easier to believe if he told me he wasn't going to go and get his weapon, but it was. It was jarring for a second, but but throughout it all, and I think this is like where what you're, what I'm resonating with in your message, is that like there's that part of us that has done, you know, like you and I've done the work. We've seen the thing, we've watched the demons, we've seen the monsters and we can always see that like little speck of light inside of what somebody is going through. And that's like that's the innocence, right, that's the innocence of the spirit, that's the innocence of the child, and the protector part comes out because the innocence was corrupted by an energy that they could not deal with or battle at that age. And so the turning back inwards on themselves, the belief in the corruption of their innocence, creates the demon, the inner violence that they have.

Speaker 2: 35:23

And and I think you know, throughout all this work that I've done with people, and certainly in my own journey, is like the, the willingness and and every time I've gone deeper into my own innocence or worked with somebody and gone deeper into their innocence, the warrior becomes more benevolent, you know, and more wise, that it knows what it needs to battle, like you know, and how it needs to battle and what it needs to just simply turn away from, you know, and sort of ignore. It's like cause. A warrior doesn't have to battle every single battle. In fact, the wise warrior knows very precisely how to engage its enemy, how to engage its foe, and the strength of the hand that it needs to lie on its opponent Right. And so I think you know, I'm curious for you about your experience in getting to that place in your heart where you've discovered your inner child experience and getting to that place in your heart where you've discovered your inner child how much this inner warrior came to life in you.

Speaker 1: 36:25

The warrior side was obviously my strong side, you know, hence the warrior's way mindset. I was like I realized the warrior side. But that's where you can get into, like you said, the benevolence of it. I can, I know restraint, I know strategy, I know tactics too. My mind and body were strong and it was like working through spirit and heart. That was weird. So spirit side I was able to connect with. It was this art side.

Speaker 1: 36:47

When I brought the warrior from my body and mind side, I brought that element of me in because I did create personas. This was helpful for me to train and level up each side. I call it the fantastic four. You can use whatever, whatever ones that you want. But you know, the heart side was the most complicated. But I talked about my body side. That was Norman, the Viking warrior. Like you want me to kill that, you know he was very strong, very capable, but didn't have to go kill everything. It was just like is this me? Is that that's not me? I'll leave it. Okay, like he was, like he was whatever he was needed at the time. But then my, uh, my mind side, that that achiever element, the work through through the night and keep building, creating, push against the grain. Um, you know, break the rules, let's, let's, let's create something nobody else could create. There was a lot more of my Tony Stark element than my Iron man, if you will. And so I really identified with that type of mindset. Like I'll invent the way to fix it, I'll figure out a way that it'll be very it's not, I'll take all the information you guys have and I'll make it better. Like that was my Tony Stark. I worked hard on that side. But then I went spirit side and there's a lot more surrender on that side. I went more Christianity. So I went apostle, I will follow, I will surrender to, I will give and be of service to. And that was something where I could relinquish so much power of needing to control everything because I believed in something, and that let me release a lot more. And that's why the uh, the psychedelics, or even the, the journey you're talking about for people who needed to control everything, that allowed me to release control over everything. So, like that's free.

Speaker 1: 38:30

Now, this heart side though I'm not bringing a warrior in here. There's an inner child there, but it's not only an inner child. I also had a battered and beaten, depressed romantic in there. The lover was in there too. The one who goes I want to love you was beaten down and there's a lot of women hurting there, like just because I was unhealthy, I would choose unhealthy women, and unhealthy women do very unhealthy things. And so this romantic thing, this part of me that wanted love, was so beat up. He was so down on himself.

Speaker 1: 39:08

So it was the only element that I had insecurity in, as far as the love element and in mind and in body and in heart or not mind, body and spirit. I could fight. I knew what to do, but this hard side was flight. The hard side was run away. The hard side when it gets bad, get out, and that was different rules in there. So that guy ironically the broken hearted element, didn't lean into a warrior, he leaned into mind. The confidence of my Tony Stark element of myself was like that depressed version of I just wish I could be loved or worthy of love would lean into like the confidence of that like mind side to go like dude, you're fucking awesome, what are you doing? Stop being stupid man, come on, let's go hang out. You know, like it would just be so reassuring and so confident and so collected and so prepared that it started to build the confidence of my heart side to be able to handle more. And so all of the battles and this is why I talk about these sides so it seems like so odd, like it's a split personality thing. They all work together, they're all one team, but this, this side I had to train with, hadn't done the battles.

Speaker 1: 40:22

When I opened up this element, I had to go back through every funeral again because I never grieved people correctly. I understood it and I was physically there and I could understand they were in a better place, but I didn't feel it. And so I had to go through the loss of best friends and grandfathers and people who I had, a lot of people who were killed, suicide, they were gone, very tough moments, and I was so shut down in this area that I didn't grieve them. And so this guy had to then level up and go back through all of these fights and let's just say the heart side did not have the same weapons and so there would be leaning in on my, my inner child. Stuff would go hey, you got to go battle this thing, buddy. He's like I just got the wooden sword and we're like you got this, here's how we all did it, and they're all cheering him on you got it, buddy. He's like I'm going to do it.

Speaker 1: 41:18

And then like we'd be going through a lot of these grieving, a lot of the feelings and a lot of stuff, and then those other elements of myself could be the, the, the big brothers or whatever that he never had. You know, it'd be like so proud of you, little dude, and like, yeah, I did it. You know, like the thing that you never got. We got to be in my own journey of healing. I got to be the hero in the story that I wish I would have had, and now we get to be the heroes in other people's stories that we wish that they would have had to. We get to be that now. So like now that you train people and you work with people, I train men to be able to do this. So now, when their kids are going through the things that they wish that their dad would have been, I'm proud of you, I believe in you, I've got you. You will be safe with me. We can take this together, son. We get to be the heroes for them that we wish we would have had, and that's because I could do it to myself.

Speaker 1: 42:24

I could go in there and my mind's, I can go. Stop whining about it, get your, come here, get up, come on, let's go do something fun. It's fucking. I'll show you how cool you are, yeah, but man, people are just gonna like they're just gonna leave, they're like they already left. Come on, let's go hang out like whatever dude, let's go, let's go work through that, let's feel through it, let's do the thing. And so it's just neat to watch the connections that I made through those things and then having that spirit element of like releasing control over everything.

Speaker 1: 42:55

I don't, I control nothing, which ironically, put me back in control of everything. Yeah, and I think people don't understand that element when I control nothing, it allows me to choose how to handle everything. I can just choose. I don't have to go like you can't wear that or don't say that to me, or you can't do that, or never, never do this or that, like these things are what people will do. It's how we handle. It is where I train, you know. And so don't put yourself in hostile situations or train for hostile situations. It's it's interesting how we can handle life if we just be prepared for just life.

Speaker 2: 43:35

Yeah, and I think it's. It's the. You know the. You can have as many mental models as you want for for things like this. Like you know you can know what to do in the right situation at a funeral. You know you can know how to support somebody or what they need to hear or what you need to do, and you can have all the tactics that are there in place.

Speaker 2: 44:00

But without that capacity to feel through the experience and really deeply know what's needed and also deeply know how to communicate that through your body, through your own felt experience, to give you know the first yourself and to the people around you the permission to feel the fullness of their experience, you know is is a piece that I think is is really lacking in the world. You know the people who've gone to that place and have grieved the various different layers of of their experience Cause we are we're very head heavy in this world very mental model, very structured, you know, very formatted. But to get to that place and open up the heart, you know it's. It's not like a we're not working through, like a linear process of grieving. It's almost this like cavernous sort of place where you go into this like narrow little passageway that opens up into this big cave that leads to another little offshoot, and you're just navigating through this, thinking that you're, you know, eventually going to get somewhere, and you don't ever really get anywhere. But you just you're in the process of exploring and by understanding all the different, you know depths of your heart and your experience. It really does allow you to attune more to a greater fullness of the experience, and people feel that when they're around you.

Speaker 2: 45:25

I think, within the psychedelic space especially, I think there can be a lot of focus on practices. What practices do you use? Do you use a Hikomi method? Do you do internal family systems? Do you do some Hikomi method? Do you do internal family systems? Do you do, uh, you know, some other kind of method or something you know? And all of that is is useful, I think, to an extent. But where I think this work really transcends and I think this is true for life in general is is in as a facilitator, to be in a place of presence where you can just open up and hold space for the entire experience that somebody's going through opens up so much for them yeah, that's what I was going to say when you were going through the methods.

Speaker 1: 46:07

I'm like I use presence in the presence and then we get prepared for anything. Like yeah, I was going to say that's so cool that you're like that's what I do too. I'm present, I we're in, whatever happens, we're there and whatever it is is what we're going to do. Like we allow what will be to be and like not go, like well, it's not going. According to the method, according to chapter six. Here it says that we should be going to like no, this, this goes where it goes. You know and you don't know what things are connected, but you do get better at being able to do it. You ever see the nightmare before Christmas? I was just thinking about your cavern thing. You ever see?

Speaker 1: 46:46

the nightmare before Christmas.

Speaker 2: 46:49

Not for years.

Speaker 1: 46:50

Okay, I'm not going to get into that part of it. There's a part at the beginning where the Jack Skellington's walking along and then he finds all these trees and on each of the trees is a circle of trees and on each one is a symbol that represents each holiday. So a big Turkey for Thanksgiving and the Christmas tree for Christmas, and the giant, you know, easter egg for Easter, like each tree has like the thing, and that's a door that takes you to that holiday. You know it takes this way. You open this one, it goes into the Christmas thing. So he goes in there and he's like, oh it's, I'm in Christmas town now when he's got Halloween town, and like that, these giant trees were the doorways. And for me that's kind of what I was thinking, like when you go, all right, am I going heart side today, mind side, spirit side, am I going body side? Which door do I choose? And then I'll go in there. But they are all still connected at this place. They're all still connected. But you can go down as far as you want, each one, each of those caves, if you will, to like how far does it go? But they are still connected and that's where, if you we are protection systems will shut one of those doors off.

Speaker 1: 47:54

And you're only using two or three, or sometimes even just one. You know, and you're like I just I three, or sometimes even just one. You know, and you're like I just work out, I just convert all my sadness into anger, my anger into workout, my workout into progress. And you're like now I'm jacked bro because I got it all together, alpha life. And you're like I think you only have one side open here. I don't know if that's balanced out here. Warrior, yeah, you can bench, but can you feel like I could feel like benching? Is that a thing? I'm like let's go ahead and go through some of the, the hard side. Oh, you mean pussy shit. I'm like it's actually not. If it was pussy shit, you wouldn't be scared of it. So it's kind of funny when I that's what I was just thinking of like each door, like they're all there, so which side are we going to? And that was why it was tough. I actually I want to give credit to les mcdaniels. He's a heart side coach and he's the one who helped me find it, because I was really struggling and you can tell when you're you're struggling, you just don't know where it is.

Speaker 1: 48:58

I wish I would have been into the psychedelics at the time this was before that, before I knew about this to crack into it. It sped up my process once I learned it, but I didn't even know where it was and I was just just so fucking angry man like there was something in that just wasn't okay, but I couldn't work out enough to get the h to calm down. I couldn't write out or get enough out to make it so it made sense. I couldn't pray it out or meditate it out or let it out spiritually Just wasn't releasing and I would just be there, even in the midst of good things.

Speaker 1: 49:30

I was at our nephew's graduation a great celebration, great kid, good thing and I hated it. I was so fucking mad. I was just mad. Every conversation was so surface, everything was so petty, everything was so stupid and it was me just just taking blessings and shitting on them. I was just. I was just, I hated. I kept walking outside just to get fresh air because I didn't want to hear about the fucking weather inside. I'm like I don't care, I don't care, and so like I uh, I would end up just just talking to les like what am I doing? He's like let me go check your your doors here, let me see what you got.

Speaker 1: 50:08

I say he's like where's your inner child stuff? I'm like well, I know that the gym is over here, but I don't got any kids in the gym. And I know that over here is the church. No, no kids in the church. There's no, that's just spirit stuff. We're doing that. And I go to the library over here. There's no kids in the library like we're good. So I don't know what you're talking about. There's no stupid inner child stuff. What are you talking about? He's like how long has this wall been here? My wall's always been there. He's like, yeah, I don't think that this is right. And he's like can I borrow this? I'm like that wall's always been there. He's like yeah, I don't think that this is right. And he's like can I borrow this? I'm like what do you do? He grabs a hammer. This is all in my mind. He's doing this talk and he starts I'm like, oh, my god, I'm gonna have to repair that. And he's, and he goes look through the wall and I'm like all right, what do you? Got here, I'm looking through the wall here and there's a door behind the wall and he's like that's why you can't find it.

Speaker 1: 51:03

Your hard side. You closed this thing off years ago. You put a wall in front of the door to make it so you don't ever have to go in there. Because you called it what Vulnerability, weakness, being a pussy, not being a man, whatever you labeled it, whatever protection system you did not being a man, whatever you labeled it, whatever protection system you did, you put a wall in front of a door so you don't have to feel it. That's your suppression system. You shut that whole thing down, man. You called it safety, security. It's bullshit, is what it is. You got a closed off door.

Speaker 1: 51:33

No wonder you're losing your mind. No wonder you're not. You're not using one whole piece of what you are. No wonder every relationship's failing. No wonder you're not. You're not using one whole piece of what you are. No wonder every relationship's failing. No wonder you can't connect. No wonder you're only angry because you're converting that into your only motivation system you have. No wonder she's like now you know where to work and I'm like'm like well, thank you, you're a fucking asshole because you put a hole in my wall, but thank you, I guess I better get to work, and that's where I found all these pieces that we would.

Speaker 1: 52:09

As guys, our biggest obstacle generally is going to be the suppression of our feelings.

Speaker 1: 52:15

With women it's usually suppression of reality. That's where I run into denial of what is. But for guys, we deny what we feel, we deny our humanity, part of it, and those are the big struggles for the denial with. When I see, like the masculine, feminine energy stuff. So when I see that, like you know, I don't want to be feeling those feelings because I'm judged, rejected, ridiculed, shut down, pushed away, hurt, abandoned, whenever I feel it seems like something negative comes from it. You know, and that's the experience that men have, and I'm sure you've talked to enough people to go like, you're not the only guy who feels like they can't cry in front of their girl, like, and the women will be like, oh no, he can cry, I love it until he does. And like he ugly cried in front of me. I don't want that anymore, I'm not safe. You're like oh, you said you like that. No, let's get separate bedrooms. You're like what? It's a trend, it's fine. And now you're dating brad from work and you're like what the?

Speaker 2: 53:20

fuck is that a?

Speaker 1: 53:21

trend too? Maybe, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 53:29

No, that's good, and I mean I that that is, and I think you know where we're like to take that last scenario. Like women, you know where, where. Like to take that last scenario.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Like women you know men crying in front of their women is is there's like there there is that inner child who does need to cry, who does need to.

Speaker 2: 53:49

You know process and, and I think it's you know, often the men who haven't maybe learned how to hold that vulnerability, haven't learned how to stay open and available to themselves, who collapse into themselves and become this like little wounded inner child in front of their women. And if a woman isn't really capable of staying strong in her own self, her own sense of self and her own you know self-confidence and self-esteem, that she's going to look at that and, you know, be turned off by it. And then too, if men continue doing that over and over and over again, it does become depolarizing. So, like there's a part of me that that totally understands how that can happen in the dynamic, and I think the important thing to cultivate is is to get to that point where you can stand up strong and have your chest out and have, you know, tears rolling down your face and feeling the soft, you know belly of, uh, you know of yourself and of that inner child as you're, as you're holding this but also connecting to the incredible strength and courage that it takes to go there to reintegrate that lost part, because that's that's ultimately feeding. You know the engine of, of substance.

Speaker 2: 55:12

Yes, you know the engine of love.

Speaker 1: 55:16

Yeah, it's a powerful engine too. People don't understand it when they shut it down, yeah, but yeah, you're onto something with it too, you're. You're right, and this is why I seen too, and I have a. I write, I write a lot of these quotes and stuff that we do a lot of work, but here's a double meaning quote. It's very simple too, very simple, but it means two different things. In the same words. I say men need men. Same words I say men need men. So simple, right, that's okay. Yeah, duh, you're like, not duh, it's two different things. Brothers need brothers. I need to be able to go. I can cry with you and James, we've done enough work.

Speaker 1: 55:52

Where, like hell, I had one of my guys get me crying the other day. I'm like, oh, you fucking got me, dude. Like, like, I'll cry with my guys. I'll do it like I'm not ashamed of that stuff, because I love these guys. You know, I love my people. And so I'm like I'm like, fuck, dude, you fucking got me all right. I'm fucking crying now. You, fuck, you got me, dude. You know like we can do that together.

Speaker 1: 56:11

Um, whenever I cry with my girl, it's usually going to be worked out already, because I've worked it through my guys already. You know I'll have those moments with my guys and be like dude, I fucking have to process this. And then I'll bring a processed version to her so she'll get me having a strong stoic tear, one powerful stoic tear. It glistens and one glisten in this in the light. So she knows I care, but I'm not going to be like baby, like she's not getting that one. She'll get my worked through, cry, but my guys, we can fall apart with each other Because my guys will be like bro, you matter, come here, hey, I'm here with you. Man, get that shit out of you, do that stuff. Man, get it out. It's human of you. Get the human out, let's do that. Bud, you're there, peel through it, release that shit and then when you talk to her later it can still be strong but emotional, and that's men need men.

Speaker 1: 57:09

But that's why I also say the second part is men need men as mentors, guides, support, strength, challenge. It's not just the I need a brother, it's all the elements of what does a man bring to another man. And so that's why our brotherhood of man and our community element of it has been so beneficial, because I can go, james, fuck dude, I am in it, I'm in it and you're going to go. Bro, permission granted to be human, take the armor off and let's do it. And I'm like, let's at least do two grams and talk about it. You're like I'm listening, let's go, and then we can get into some real stuff. I'll work through some difficult things and then I bring a finished product to my baby. I bring a product to her. That's like. I've worked through all of these things. I don't have to unload on her because I love her. But she's not built for unload.

Speaker 1: 58:05

And I think that's a reassuring thing for a lot of couples is that just because you love somebody doesn't mean they have therapy training and they can handle somebody's complete dump on you. We're not built for that, nobody. Our women aren't built for that and our men aren't built for that. Women can have that negative connection way more than guys do. We don't enjoy it at all.

Speaker 1: 58:27

And then if you bring your shit to us and you're like I don't want it fixed, you're like but I'm a repair guy, what I do is fix. Why are you bringing things you don't want fixed to the repair guy? Doesn't make any sense to us. And so that's the struggle with each other is to be like how do I unload or how do I share for just the guy side? I'm not speaking for the women, for the guy side. Men need men and we can do that together and then bring it back and I'll give you one beautiful stoic tear, yeah, but I'll ugly face cry with james. I got that. I'm like james, fuck dude, I fucking lost it all. Like I'll be falling apart with you yeah, man, I I have.

Speaker 2: 59:07

You know, I have a number of people in my life, some elders, older, older folks and men's community, people kind of at different stages of their life and and I think that's really important and valuable to have you know, cause as we transition from one stage of life into the next, it typically stirs up some, some shit. But these elders that I have in my life, one of them in particular, he always says you, uh, you you never really know a man until you've seen him cry and you never really trust him until you've seen him cry. And I think I think that is like a really beautiful sentiment to be able to trust somebody on the basis of how you feel their heart. And and I think, like this, men's work is is really important because you know, there's something too about about being held by a woman when you're crying.

Speaker 2: 59:55

And a lot of men who go to this place where they rely on women to hold them, are really just recapitulating the mother wound, really needing the nurturance from the archetype of the mother, which is inevitably going to depolarize the relationship and she's going to begin to resent you, even if there's a part of her that likes it in the moment she's going to sort of lose, lose, uh, attraction to you, um, but then the flip side of that is, like your process and going and working with your brothers and falling apart there and coming back with that strong, stoic tear, as you really, you know, reveal this part of your heart that you've already confronted and worked through and embodied and remembered, is that that's the kind of thing that, like you know, one, it's extraordinarily polarizing in terms of, like, creating attraction, um, because, like, as a man, you do that, I'm sure you can relate.

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

You feel the way that they look at you when that strong, stoic tear is rolling down your face and you've been like babe, this is, this, is here, this is here, this is a part of me that I've, you know that I've worked with and and there's, there's such a beautiful invitation for women to love us, you know, in that, to love that part of us that's willing to confront the darkness, willing to confront the shadow, but is also willing to do it in a way where she doesn't have to confront it with you, you know, and that she can have her experience and you can have yours.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

That is so important, what you just said, because it's real easy for guys to like, hear the idea and then goof it all up to go baby, we're supposed to be able to go and do the shadow battles together. And she's like I'm supposed to do what? Like, come on, this is what I'll show you, come on. And that's also a recipe for disaster. When I was like I've had some tough weeks and my baby's watching me and she's like, oh my God, that is so much I want to be able to help you. I'm like hey, do not get in my arena. You will be in my way. You keep cheering, keep supporting, but I do not need you in my fight. And if I'm in a boxing match, I don't need you jumping in here and throwing swings, because you become a liability and you become a problem. I need you on the sides. Let me do this fight. And that's where there's two elements where like but where's the fighting coming and who do I have in this arena with me and who do I need locking shields against whatever's coming up?

Speaker 1: 1:02:23

There is an element to say you don't truly know a man until you see him cry. But there's also you don't truly know a man until you see him fight, and what I mean. This is where the warrior element is. Well, what happens when it gets tough? Do you run away? What happens when things don't go your way? Do you stab someone in the back? What happens if you don't like something? Do you try to manipulate or negotiate? What happens when somebody's really struggling? Do you go, stop being a bitch, or you go like I got you, bro, or I'll protect you while you stand back up.

Speaker 1: 1:02:58

You don't know, until there's conflict. I think it was in the new John Wick movie like four, where he's talking to the guy who owns the place. I think it's in Japan or wherever it was, but he was like thanks for being there with me when it's hard. He's like friendship during times that are good mean nothing. Like friendships when things are peaceful. That means nothing. Friendship is when things go peaceful. That means nothing. Friendship is when things go crazy. Friendship is when it's hard. Friendship is when like man. This is not a good scenario.

Speaker 1: 1:03:27

So how are we going to work on this together? And it shows. Do you run away? It shows do you have my back? It shows you stay, even if it's uncomfortable. And you see which ones stay and which ones go, which ones create conflict and problems, which one where you're like I got your back, you got mine, and then you're like, and you're like what just hit me from behind? And you're looking, you see it was the person who's supposed to be protecting you as the person who's putting daggers in your back. And I'm sitting here like a fricking porcupine now, like what the fuck is going on. And so you truly know somebody.

Speaker 1: 1:04:05

When there's battle, yeah, when we, when we're done and we go through grieving and we lose, and I'm like dude, I'm fucking feeling that, yeah, you know that version, but you also know when there's conflict. Is this man, you know, one of your comrades or is he a coward? Did he stand and show up or did he run away and blame you for everything? And I think there's elements of the man, element of us. This is what is man there's. Are we servant leaders or are we selfish leaders? Are we protectors or are we going to just bolt? Are we able to connect and feel, or are we just pretending and just going like, yeah, well, fuck is what it is, bro, like that's not a connection, that's denial.

Speaker 1: 1:04:48

Man, you know, am I willing to show up? Will my body side show up, man. I got my shit's fucked. Man, I gotta get out of here. Well, I'm not helping you move. I got shit to do. Man, I gotta barbecue. You're like you're gonna bar well, I'm screwed right now and you're gonna barbecue. You're gonna throw me away for fried chicken or baked chicken and fucking ribs. I'm done, but they're really good ribs, yeah there's like the element of the Peter.

Speaker 1: 1:05:19

Pan syndrome.

Speaker 2: 1:05:21

You know this, this ever. You know, young, always wanting to play archetype and masculinity that that is uninitiated, that hasn't gone to the depths of their own. You know despair and sorrow and sadness to to be able to cultivate the capacity to be with somebody in a challenging moment like that and to to maintain their own integrity through it too. To to like, as you said, I and I love the imagery of that If, like, I'll hold my shield in front of you while you stand up, cause he still has to stand up. But I can hold my shield in front of you while you stand up, because he still has to stand up, but I can put my energy towards you know, holding the shield, but you know, maybe I'm not with this one. I'm not going to try to lift you up because you don't seem to want to stand up here, but I'll hold my shield here until you figure out that you've got to stand up yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:06:14

And it takes a lot of strength, I think, to get to that point Strength and courage and going and confronting the parts of you that haven't you know, that are unintegrated, that haven't worked with the fabric of your own suffering, that haven't worked with the fabric of your own grief, to be able to see that without getting lost in it and to not lose yourself. And you know, oh, I don't want to deal with that because I want to keep having fun. You know my life is about joy and play and going out and exploring and, you know, consuming all the beauty of life but not actually really realizing that the depth of beauty that you can experience is really generated from the willingness to hold the pain and suffering of life oh yeah, man, good awareness too.

Speaker 1: 1:07:07

It's good that you caught those things. You're like oh, that's good, and I can see that, yeah, and there's, there's a big part of I. I have a whole thing on, like when I talk to people about the difference between boys and girls and men and women. My boys and girls are takers. What can I get? What can I get? What can I get? Boys are trying to conquest, get trophies, get more, make money, do this, get that, I could get this conquest. Women I'm going to get a bunch of chicks, bunch of money, bunch of status, bunch of power. I'm going to get, get, get, get, get, get, get mine, mine, mine, mine. Girls are like what are you going to give me? Give me this, give me that, give me that, give me this, take that. I want this.

Speaker 1: 1:07:43

Men and women are different. Men and women give Men and women. How can I serve, how can I encourage, how can I build? How can I make this better for you? How can I in any way give a sacrifice that makes your life better? Men and women give and make things better for others instead of what do I get to have for myself.

Speaker 1: 1:08:07

And age is not a prerequisite here. This is a maturity. This shift from what can I get to how can I serve can happen even in your 20s, and yet this may also not happen until you're 60. Like, it's not an age thing, it's a maturity or a wisdom thing. But you can see that the level of character to say just because I'm in my forties doesn't mean I'm a man, I'm still taking, I'm still trying to get, I'm still trying to, I'm going to win, I'm going to conquest, I'm going to make, I'm going to get mine. You know like it sounds very Peter Pan, sounds very childish. I don't want to grow up. I'm not going to do that. I want to get mine. What about me? What about me? Is a very childish way to do things. And this is one of those things.

Speaker 1: 1:08:54

If you are arguing with a partner and you go, I'm really struggling through something very difficult right now. They go, you're struggling. What about my struggles? Are you with a man or a woman, or are you with a boy or a girl? Because if the first thing is what about me? What about me? What about me? Doesn't sound like how can I serve? How can I support, how can I encourage, how can I protect, how can I be there for you. What do you need? You're important to me, you matter. Let me be there for you, and a lot of us are trying to make it work, where you'll have a woman with a boy or a man with a girl and wondering why isn't this working? And that's not age, it's maturity. So in case you're wondering, I go a 40 year old with a 17 year old. I'm not talking about age, I'm talking about maturity, because you can be the same age but not mature.

Speaker 2: 1:09:48

Yeah, yeah, very much so, and I find, like you know, a lot of those relationships to the difference of maturity there's, there's some kind of initiatory process.

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

you know that that comes at the end of those relationships where you know maybe for the man or for the woman, some initiation into maturity, where the collapse of the sense of self occurs, because, you know, so much of their identity was woven into how they were showing up in their relationship and that that it was, you know, fundamentally benevolent. But but then the ripping apart and the realization of the immaturity, like I was, I, just about a year and a half ago, two years ago, got out of a relationship that was kind of much the same in a lot of ways, like, um, you know, I was on my own path, doing a lot of my own work, um, and and serving people, and, and I was in a relationship with, with a woman who, uh, had had a measure of of work to do and was kind of operating from a lower level of maturity, um and so. But but then to the part of me, there was a part of me that was extraordinarily immature, where I was in my maturity and realizing that giving, you know, is kind of that path. I hadn't really built the capacity to throttle that or realize that I was giving too much. So I kept giving and giving and giving, thinking that that was the path of love that would awaken her to her own.

Speaker 2: 1:11:18

You know, evolution as a woman, and I got to the point where I, man, I was so empty, I had nothing left to give, so empty, and then, you know, my whole, my, my whole sense of identity and being fell apart. It was, like you know, went into the initiation. It was like the, uh, the descent into the unconscious, you know, the descent into the soulless place, uh, the, the, the everlasting darkness, and uh, and it it. You know, two years out from that, I realized how important and beautiful that is, cause in that, you know, you discover, like the divine spark. I discovered the divine spark, that is, you know, the part of me that I'm really working to bring to life as much as I possibly can, but, um, but it's, it's a, it's grungy, it's a cataclysmic initiation into life to realize the depth of one's own immaturity and to step into that place of servitude, to be able to give from that abundant place.

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

And you were doing what you believed would be the right way to do it, but not in the mature way to make it. So it works. And like a lot of guys like you who have that big heart, I just I'll give, I'll do it for you, I'll sacrifice for you, I'll serve for you and, uh, we see that there has to be a strong balance and a lot of those guys they'll treat her like a rock star, but then she'll treat you like they'll treat her like a rock star, but then she'll treat you like a fan. You treat her like a queen and she'll treat you like a peasant and she just will give me more, give me more and like I have given you all I have my lady. You're like, well, then be gone with you, find another who has more to give, and you're back, but but all I have done is made it so you are now a queen, and now I am queen and I have no more need for peasants. You know it's like, well, you wouldn't be queen without me.

Speaker 1: 1:13:16

So a lot of guys are over giving. What's really interesting is I've noticed this, and this is something that, like I have also in my life found is that boundaries are very difficult for big hearted people to keep because they believe that if I restrict what I give, you'll love me less. It's a big Grand Canyon jump for that personality type, because I think that if I give you more things you'll love me more, based on how much I contribute, I should receive a reciprocity if I have given, now you give too. But we attract people when we're that type of a love style that are takers and needy and because we need to be needed, we attract somebody who takes, so that way they always need us. That creates obviously you can see the problem. We're like well, I'll give, I'll give, and like we'll give, give, give, give, take, take, take, take, take. And then you're like I gave you everything and they're like that's all. You're like yeah, that's all. Don't you love me more? Now they're like no, I would love more from someone else.

Speaker 2: 1:14:18

Then yeah, yeah, as you created a need system.

Speaker 1: 1:14:22

Here's what's even more dangerous, james, is if it works. Here's why I've seen this. Why it doesn't work. I'll give you everything and sacrifice everything. I am for you to be okay, but then the reason that you have a relationship is because you have somebody who needs a lot. Well, if you help them no longer need things because they're now good, what are you there for? So, when people start getting healthy, from this relationship style where I love you because you need me, but now I've cured and helped you enough to where you're strong enough to not need me, oh no, I'm not needed anymore and I'll watch people start sabotaging the relationship to create problems. So they're needed again. Um yeah, you're like oh no, they're getting too healthy, they're not going to need me. I'm going to, I'm going to fuck this shit up. So they're not okay. So that way, I can help them. Yeah, I think the government does that. We'll make a problem that we'll solve for you. I think the government does that. We'll make a problem that we'll solve for you.

Speaker 1: 1:15:29

Yeah, oh burn all their houses and be like. We have the house rebuilding program for you. Guys Like you didn't have to burn the house. Well, we wouldn't be able to rebuild it if they weren't burnt down.

Speaker 2: 1:15:43

Yeah, yeah. Or pharmaceuticals, you know, and the pharmaceutical industry, the agricultural industry and all of that.

Speaker 1: 1:15:52

Well, we do that in our relationships, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:55

Dang it and that's one of the things too. Here's one reason let's talk. Let's go back to our psychedelics. I know that we got into human stuff, which I do appreciate and honor that you did. That was really good. Let's go back into psychedelics. What are the big concerns? Are these addictive? Because I mean, like, I know that, um, I want a guy. I can't wait. I'm going to reach out and see if I can talk to. Is rick doblen, who just got mdma passed by the fda to use in therapy? Um, psilocybin we've both used psilocybin in therapy and working with guys and people. But, like, is this addictive? Is ayahuasca addictive? Is it an addiction to it or is there psilocybin is an addiction? Mdma people are addicted to it and they just can't stop. Like, what are some of the experiences that you've seen with this? What are your interactions?

Speaker 2: 1:16:43

Yeah, I think the classic, like plant medicine, psychedelics, so DMT, psilocybinbin, mescaline, um, ibogaine, these plant-based psychedelics, um, they don't have the same kind of uh, they're not.

Speaker 2: 1:16:59

Most of them are working on the dopamine receptors right, um, and so, uh, they don't have the addictive quality neurobiologically. Mdma is an amphetamine, so I think it does have more of an addictive quality to it, but it's not as bad as, say, like a heroin or even a classic methamphetamine or even alcohol. Alcohol is far more addictive than I think all of these substances. But what I do see with plant medicine is sort of an addiction around what I would call spiritual bypassing, where people will maybe take substances, take these psychedelics, to get to this higher place of consciousness and experience what they might be calling healing, but then they're not really fully integrating the experience and and so they'll come back into their life and the same phenomenon keeps playing out in their life. So they go okay, I need to go back and I need to go sit with plant medicine again, and they just go in this loop, you know, reaching, attaining this higher place, coming back down, not integrating, and so I think that's an addiction.

Speaker 1: 1:18:13

That was so well said. I like that Spiritual bypassing, and I've seen the same thing where people will go to feel but not heal. Yeah, like I want to go and feel good that I did the thing. I did a thing Like, all right, did you let that go? Did you work through it? Like, all right, did you let that go? Did you work through it? No, I was just. I was so d, I was so connected. I'm like, yeah, but did you let it go? Well, no, I was. It was so, it was so colorful and freeing. You're like did you let it go? Maybe I think I did. You're like, oh god, I don't know, you didn't do the thing you're supposed to do when you're in there. Like you don't let it go and like you didn't do it. So there, that's the same thing. I think it goes the same thing too.

Speaker 1: 1:18:50

We watch it in um motivational speakers. The same thing. We're like here's the tools, guys, rah, rah, get excited, use the tools, use the tools. Like I got so many new information, I got so much new information, and then they don't transform, they just have inform and then they go like, oh man, it's, I got all the tools, but it still didn't work. I'm like did you use the tools? No, I just need to go back and get more motivation. I gotta go and I gotta go to another seminar. I gotta go to get motivated again and then I can get. I need more tools. I need more tools. You're like no, you just have to use the ones you got. You didn't use them, and so that's why I sound like that spiritual bypassing. I went in and I felt it Did you heal? No, I just felt. I felt. So it was good.

Speaker 2: 1:19:35

It's so funny to listen to people tell these big, ornate stories. I like finally went to this place, you know, grandmother came and the journey and she showed me like all the ways that I'm self-sabotaging and all the ways that I'm, like, you know, not stepping into my power and and like like I just know things are going to be different. And then you pick up the phone with them two weeks later and they're like, they're like, you know, this baggage clerk at the grocery store gave me the evil eye and I just oh, it just ruined my entire day. You're like ah, it didn't work, it didn't work.

Speaker 1: 1:20:07

You didn't do the thing. Yeah, I'm right there with you. It's one of those things where, like, that's why I think, uh, my personality type is such a I'm a challenger, and so I go, go in there and let it go, and they're like I think I did. I'm like, well, why are you still holding it? Uh, let it go. Like we gotta get rid of that thing. It's not even yours, you know. And so that's where it's cool to see. That's why I really enjoy people like you, where I go, like what's your style? You're like I do it this way. I'm like, oh, I do it this way. And you're like sometimes that works, and then sometimes they want to stab you. So it's weird, like we don't know, but it's. I've never had an experience like you have with that guy running. That's still crazy, but I love that spiritual bypassing. I'm just going to go in.

Speaker 1: 1:20:50

It's almost kind of like the people will try to create the look that they're busy healing, but not actually healing. Like don't you guys see how busy I am? I actually have people who like do that where they don't finish projects. So that way they're still needed, like I'm going to try and make it perfect. So don't judge the paint. Don't judge the painting till it's finished. Right, like, but you've been working on it for two years now.

Speaker 1: 1:21:16

It's a work in process, I'm still evolving and you're like finish the fucking painting. We have 200 paintings to do. Like, what are you doing? Don't judge it. Don't, don't judge me, because if I finish it, then you'll judge me. What if it's not good enough and then it's not, I'm not going to be loved anymore. Then you'll hate me and then you'll reject me and nobody will love me because they'll see it's, it's the measure on this. And you're like, what are you doing? Stop, will you stop and just feel the thing, heal the thing, and then let's go to the next one. We got this. What are you doing? I really like that spiritual bypassing. We're bullshitting, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:21:49

And it does. It does take a like you know. I mean I love the warriors, I love what your message is and how you embody it and uh, and and your method it's.

Speaker 2: 1:22:00

It's a beautiful thing because I think you know the world that we live in so easily accommodates the victim and accommodates a saboteur, and so you can go to these really high places and journey and you come back down and then you go to work, you know, and you're surrounded by people who are just complaining about their life and complaining about their job and complaining about their partners.

Speaker 2: 1:22:22

And you know, you go maybe for a walk and you meet with a friend who's complaining about their life and there's just like this, this thread constantly of like, just victimhood and you know, complaining, and it's this, this, like it's a way in which we get drawn down, and so there's a part of me that really can appreciate and understand why people, you know, can go to that high place and then convince themselves that they've attained it and then get brought back down, you know, into the shadow of existence, because it's everywhere, it's pervasive, and so that further underscores the importance of like really cultivating that capacity to be a warrior, to choose what is uncomfortable to choose, and to stay committed to your integrity and even be being able to define what your integrity is is a hard thing for most people, you know and then to maintain about it yeah be honest about it and then and then to to sit in the discomfort of the situations that arise that cause you to confront your capacity to stay in your integrity.

Speaker 1: 1:23:26

Yeah, you know it's it's everywhere yeah, you're so right, dude. The thing with the victim thing is everywhere right now. You're rewarded for your victimhood, which makes us so being courageous and loyal and good, and just is like, yeah, but you won't get the victim praise anymore. You know that right. I remember when I was I used to talk a lot with anthony dalman jones, phd. When I was talking with him a lot, I was reading his books and him and I became friends and I was bouncing some of my stuff off of him. But he told me something that stuck with me, with certain curses that are very interesting to break, and he says you'll find ones where people will find the value of their problems are more important than the value of their solutions. The value of their problems are more important than the value of their solutions. And that's what you're talking about. Is being a victim gives me attention or sympathy or love. People will notice me. People go, oh, poor you, or I feel so sorry for you, or here are my prayers, or bless your heart, and like, oh, you have all of my attention. And they're like, well, I get so much attention and sympathy and and praise or whatever. People will be there for me or they notice me when things are going very wrong and it seems like the more tragic the story, the more attention that I'll get. Well, what happens if you solve that? Well, they won't. People don't even notice me if I'm doing, okay, if I go. Hey guys, I worked through that. They're like like, must be nice, like it is nice, it was nice, like whatever, we'll see you later. Maybe you're like okay, maybe I shouldn't tell him I did good, you know, like the solution is going to make it so that whatever need that you have for this negative energy to feel love and it's a reversed curse here, right, love is misery and the more tragedy I have, the more I can post up.

Speaker 1: 1:25:15

Look how bad things are. My engagement was broken off because he says he can't love me. For me, it's like that's not what happened. You were treating him like dog shit for two years and he had enough. You don't understand. I did everything. You were really, really mean to him and you guys have had intimacy once in two years. You probably weren't doing everything like no, don't, don't talk to, don't talk about that. It was horrible what happened to me. You know what I'm talking about. You. You know the ones man.

Speaker 2: 1:25:50

A hundred percent man. Yeah, it's like a little dopamine, you know you get this. Like you know you get this like little peak of like dopamine and like affection and, like you know, compassion and like this little hit of love, but then it like drops you down below baseline, you know. So like over the longterm it feels disempowering it doesn't feel like you know you're really getting anything beneficial or so substantive.

Speaker 2: 1:26:14

And then, like love, and you know, empowerment is sort of like a slow burn, like it doesn't show up right away. So those of us who are, like, really addicted to the quick highs, the quick hits, which you know our entire world is built around, the quick hits, you know it's not as attractive to do the slow burn, but it's the slow burn that gets you way up above whatever peak you could ever imagine with that quick hit of dopamine.

Speaker 1: 1:26:39

Yeah, yeah, you're victims, they, they love the quick hits from having the value of your problems, but your warriors, they value the solutions. I do not need your quick hit, for I know the value of not having the problem, yeah, and I do not need your attention, praise and admiration because I have solved something. But later, with enough solutions, you go this guy is good at solving, he is good to have in your corner because he does make the problems not as big of a problem to have in your corner, because he does make the problems not as big of a problem like, and so you start finding more value in solutions than having issues where you're. You are very accurate, as we are in a time that praises diagnosis. It's very awkward as because people will try then to take on traits of a diagnosis of my anxious attachment disorder or whatever attachment disorder I have chosen this week and I shall embody.

Speaker 1: 1:27:36

Or I read a thing that says I have CTPSD or some shit, and now I'm going to start acting that way. It seems like the symptoms for bipolar disorder, which is any negative feeling ever, is what I have, and so my depression and my anger are all part of my bipolar disorder or whatever it is. And so now I have an excuse or a justification for why I'm going to treat you terribly, because I have a disorder. I'm like where did you get this? From WebMD, I have all the symptoms. You're like how did you get all the symptoms? Didn't you notice me doing them this week? I sure the fuck did. That's where you got those from. I think I've had it since I was a little kid, but it only started this week.

Speaker 1: 1:28:21

Yeah, this is where people start creating that I have a diagnosis, even if it's not accurate. They start embodying the diagnosis. Now I'm the victim. Now, poor me, and now everybody should be accommodating that you should sidestep. You should be empathetic and sympathetic to you, should be concerned for and that's the one thing I noticed that what you're doing fucks that all up, because I'm like, well, why don't we go in there, do some deep work and see if it's really that? And you get in there with, you know, psilocybin, you get in there with ayahuasca, and you get in there and you go. Did you notice it's bullshit? And like it, fucking is bullshit. I diagnosed myself based of a meme that I saw on Facebook. Damn it. Saw on Facebook, damn it, that's bullshit. And it's revealed that it's bullshit.

Speaker 2: 1:29:18

Yeah, yeah. And now I'm looking for the world to validate it. You know, and I am validating it because I'm that's the lens through which I'm seeing my existence, my life play out is through my complex post-traumatic stress disorder disorder, because I'm wearing it as an identity rather than like a pair of shoes that I know that I'll eventually take off as I begin to heal this part of me.

Speaker 1: 1:29:35

Well said, well said. Yeah, all right, I got one from I'm going to be a little silly here All right Cause I haven't done DMT yet. I haven't done it. Machine elves Is it a thing, machine elves? People say they go out there. I don't know if it's masculine or LSD or DMT, I don't remember which one, but they say machine elves, you'll be out there. I want to say it was DMT in the 10, 15 minute range, but I don't know. But they're like you'll get out there and you'll see that once you're out into the ether of energy, it's all run by machine elves. Shroud into the ether of energy, it's all run by machine elves. I haven't experienced it.

Speaker 2: 1:30:13

So I'm wondering if there's a thing where you're like bro, if you do enough, you'll see the machine elves, they run the show yeah, I mean, it's so interesting how like and I'll just say this quick thing but it's so interesting how people across the spectrum of experience can see the same things. You know the machine elves. It's so fascinating archetypally with ayahuasca you might see the snake, you might see the jaguar. Um, you know, I did um when I, when I did smoke dmt, I saw this like beautiful light being in the center of the sky and it was almost like the eye of um sauron or you know, from the lord of the rings, like that. It wasn't like confronting, but that's kind of what it looked like. And and I think these archetypes are really interesting depictions of, you know, the mind, psyche and its capacity to create imagery.

Speaker 1: 1:31:03

Um, I personally haven't seen the machine elves, but I've heard of them yeah, I mean, I haven't listen, I haven't, I haven't met him, but I hear people who are, like you said, too many cultures finding the same things when they don't talk to each other. Yeah, like do I saw there was machine elves and you're like that sounds like bullshit. And then, across the, across the pond, over and across the notion, they're like the machine elves dude you. You're like how do you guys know?

Speaker 1: 1:31:27

and then another country, like there are machine elves. You're like how the hell are they all texting? Like how do they? Is this a conspiracy theory? What is this like? What is happening? So I didn't know if you've seen them. I haven't seen, I haven't met them yet. I'd like to if there's machine elves.

Speaker 2: 1:31:44

I've never done it, I'd like to go like what the what have machine elves they don't speak English 2000, 3000 years ago, when the pyramids were, you know, built, or however long ago they were built, and that time in history when there was so much you know connection on on those higher dimensions. I think we're kind of kind of closing in on a time like that in the future.

Speaker 1: 1:32:20

I do too. I think we're going back. It does seem like, and everything's leaning that direction where, like it's, I do have it now to where those conversations seem more regular, like how many people have access to psilocybin. It's like everyone Like why, oh, it's in my closet, or oh, I grow it here, or my buddy grows it. Like there's always like it's like everywhere now, because it's that accessible.

Speaker 1: 1:32:44

But we're going back to the time where we're like let's do the most holistic version of us finding us. Let's go back to what used to be a very natural way to do this, and not a pharmaceutical way and not a suppression way, but a way that you go in deliberately to go and find you, not escape you. And I think that's where the pharmaceuticals is. Let's numb you, let's shut you down, let's turn. The pharmaceuticals is let's numb you, let's shut you down, let's turn the volume down, let's make it so you don't feel today, creating in a need for addiction versus let's go in and dig it out and now you no longer require anything that you need to numb from and it's non-addictive. Because these are non-addictive.

Speaker 1: 1:33:28

I don't see the addictive properties, except for if you have the value of the problem supersedes the value of the solutions, and so I'm doing spiritual bypassing aside from that issue, which, if you're with somebody who's good, we'll help you get rid of that issue. There's no addictive property to it. You're just like that was, that was cool. Well, who wants pizza? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:33:50

Yeah, yeah, which is, I think, going to create a really interesting conflict intention in the world.

Speaker 1: 1:33:57

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:33:58

These systems and industries and governments that have been built upon the assumption of people, keeping people in this cycle of consumerism and sickness, begin to feel the freedom and the liberation of the individual who's no longer participating in the system and the collective choosing of a different system. Whether we're choosing it, it's at first going to have to be chosen on a belief system level. System, whether we're choosing it, you know, it's at first going to have to be chosen on a belief system level, you know. And then, from the belief system level, it's going to have to be implemented within a communal, societal, cultural, governmental, you know, global level. And but it begins with the individual.

Speaker 1: 1:34:43

What's your prediction on this? I have a theory, but I want to hear, like, if you got got something like, what do you think is going to happen with that? What do you think the theory for, like your prediction, maybe we can we can fortune, tell for a moment here how do you think that that's gonna go? It's a guess like so you don't have to be like, you won't be held over the fire, we're like you we're going like maybe it will do. This is what it looks like. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 1:35:08

yeah, uh well, I believe there's, you know there's, there's real benevolence in um, the, the growth of consciousness and the embodiment of the individual, um, and but I also think, like you know, they're like people like yourself, people who are really cultivating that warrior spirit, that like don't fuck with me spirit, but like I love you but don't fuck with me. It was like I think that energy is going to come to life a lot more in the world and anywhere that there's a system that wants to destroy that there's going to be destruction, you know, in a, in a real cataclysmic sort of systemic issue. So I hope, I hope a lot of our structures in society begin to fall apart. Like I, I it's hard to can be with these tensions of the world and see that the world wants to change and wants to be different. And I'm willing to embrace the discomfort of that personally because I know, given all of my experience, that, you know, death breeds life, you know, and these systems need to die, die. So I don't have a really clear prediction necessarily, but I mean I'd love to see some governments fall well, at least, well, at least the way they're run is incorrect it's

Speaker 1: 1:36:38

gotten too corrupt to be the initial purpose again, like the anything that seems to be like put in the political sphere. For both sides. The ideas were good. You just did a really shitty job of doing the idea. You're like the idea is that we have people who serve the people. You're like well, how do they do it? I make them do whatever I want them to do. Oh, that's not serving the people, that's no, you did it wrong. The idea was good but boy, did you do that wrong.

Speaker 1: 1:37:06

Like, if the ideas are good but done poorly, it's those kinds of things I look to where people start getting holistic, healthy, start doing things where they're no longer staying addicted to opioids or pharmaceuticals or certain prescriptions and you start seeing people who go into more of a holistic and a healthy and non-addictive and truly long-lasting cures getting back to the basics and connecting with each other again and getting out of like doing this all day and we start finding us within each other again. We go back to the basics and when people start doing that, I believe that you will start seeing the most potent weapon used today is judgment. Oh, look at these witch doctors, look at these crazy people. Look at these voodoo, dark art, evil wizards. Look at these people. You're like this is a thing that's been done for a long time. This is just a regular old plant, it's not crazy. You're like no, you're voodoo, you're the devil worshipers, you're pagan, you're whatever. And they'll start using judgments and shame and guilt to dehumanize people who simply just don't participate in being stuck in a pharmaceutical haze and they just don't agree with doing things that put poison in to try to stop poison and going no, no, I'm going to go with a healthy route. I'm going to go with awareness, I'm going to go with acceptance, I'm going to go with enlightenment, I'm going to go with, you know, truly finding myself or letting go in a very healthy way to grieve.

Speaker 1: 1:38:40

They're like yeah, but that takes you out of the cycle of us using you as a consumer. You guys are evil, you guys are dark, you guys guys are bad. You guys are the bad ones, and so I would watch for blame, shame and judgment as the tools against people who just really won't play in the do everything we tell you game. Yeah, that's my prediction. So this is where, if anybody's going to armor up appropriately, watch out when people just start trying to judge you into submission. So that way, you go into doing what they tell you to do, because they tell you you're a piece of crap and you're only allowed to do what I tell you to to not be. Yeah, that's the game right now is that strong people the warriors are submitting themselves and censoring themselves and stopping. They're not fighting anymore because of blame, shame and judgment. You'll tell me that I'm a bad person or I'm the bad one, or you'll all attack me and call me names for disagreeing, and so disagreement provokes attack agreement provokes attack, but it's going to be emotionally, not physically.

Speaker 2: 1:39:56

Yeah, yeah, there's uh the. The imagery that always comes to mind when it with things like this is uh, you know you, if you put crabs in a bucket, or or in a pot boil water, one crab will try to climb out and the rest of the crabs will try to bring that crab back in. And you see that a lot, you know. Yeah, yeah, people will try to escape.

Speaker 1: 1:40:18

They use blame, shame, guilt, um to bring people back down and that's why, with, with training and with the things that we're offering, it makes it so you can go. You don't have to fall for it. You know that right. Just because somebody wants to judge you doesn't mean that it's true. And they try to insert a belief system inside of you to make you quit. But you don't need facts to create a belief, and that's something that people are not, they're not catching on to. It's a very small percentage I talked to was like do you require facts to create a belief system? And they're like hmm, not at all. It doesn't even require one fact for me to believe it's true. And yet this is how we poison each other by putting a judgment in what I think you are, with no evidence needed, and then you accept that sense of yourself. Do what I tell you to, stop doing what is right and do who is right. So that way, you are now like in control by me. I now own you.

Speaker 2: 1:41:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I I think it becomes enlivening, you know, for to to be on the path and to be choosing this warrior's way, because I think you do. You. It is always going to be a challenge to confront those dark forces, but, like those, anything that comes up in life whether it's a shitty relationship or a shitty boss or you know somebody who's trying to shame, blame, guilt you into adopting their belief system, like everything, is just fodder for the fire of your own evolution and your own deepening into your truth. And and so I think it's like the warrior spirit is, like the, the means of embrace that, like you know, I'll battle you with my sword, you know, and let my skills be sharpened in battle and um and and more of those people I think are coming to life right now, and that's that's, I think, what really gets me excited about where we're going. It's like there's some strong motherfuckers out there.

Speaker 1: 1:42:35

Yeah, We'll love this. Stand right next to you and let's go into the catacombs and get the nasty shit out of there. Yeah, let's go raid together. Let's go get that stuff out of you. Yeah, let's go get that stuff out of you. Yeah, yeah, I see you. James. This is pretty awesome man. I think that you're badass dude. How can we help you more? Like, what can we do? Like where would people be able to go? Like I love what James is doing and I'd love to be able to have one of those moments and I want to go fight a demon with James. Like, how can we get people to know, like, what you're doing, get in touch with you or have any of your services?

Speaker 2: 1:43:13

Like what can we do to help you? Where do you?

Speaker 1: 1:43:14

go. Is there a website? What do?

Speaker 2: 1:43:17

we do Online, um, my website is center of all directionscom. Um, I've got a lot of information about my story up there, um, as well as some, some services and and some areas of interest, and I'm really going to be building that part out a little bit more. So I want to create more access to serve others and and so there's there's going to be a growing amount of content coming through myself, my, my brand, my company, to really help support people out there in the world and, um, in the areas of psychedelics, um, men's work, couples work, um, and just ceremonial work, uh, which sort of spans this desire to create more initiations and rites of passage in the world. Um, and then you can find me on Instagram. My handle is at James Eshelman, um, and you can reach out through any channel that you find me.

Speaker 1: 1:44:14

That ass. Dude. We're going to have all the links in the bio. Click on the stuff like subscribe, all the things with James. Reach out to him because you seem very down to earth and willing to serve and it seems like there's a lot of value in being able to know you serve and it seems like there's a lot of value in being able to know you. So I listen, I was really on the fence about ever wanting to do an ayahuasca run because it was not a thing, but, like I think that when you, when you explain it about going in the basement of the darkness and finding the nasty shit, well I'm a little more interested now. So, man, we'll be in touch. It sounds like a very cool thing. So it's such an honor to know you. Man, I really appreciate you for being here today likewise, brother.

Speaker 2: 1:44:54

I'll stand by you anytime let's do it.