Marie Hommel: Unshakeable Roots-A Mother’s Journey with Her Transgender Daughter

In this episode, Marie Hommel gets real about the ups and downs of supporting her transgender daughter, Ashley. It's not just about identity exploration – mental health is in the mix too. Marie shares  how trust and acceptance were foundational in creating a safe space for her daughter to open up, which is not easy as a teenager. This episode is a straight-up, no-nonsense conversation that's part heart, part uplifting.

BIO:
Marie began her career as an educator. She taught High School English. She loved working with young people and particularly students who were considered “at risk”. In 2002 - Marie went to graduate school. She completed a dual degree program, graduating with her Master of Social Work and her law degree. Marie was hired by the County of San Diego as a social worker for the Health and Human Services Agency. She is currently a Chief of Agency Operations and works with teams of social workers to support children, youth and families. Marie is an expert in child abuse and neglect.

In 2006, Marie and her husband Mike and then 5 year old son Jacob welcomed a baby boy into the family. The baby was named Austin. In 2021, Austin came out as transgender. The name and gender has been legally changed to Ashley Jules Hommel. Ashley is now 17 years old and has plans to transition via surgery in 2024.

RESOURCES/ REFERENCES:

Parenting Your Transgender Teen: Positive Parenting Strategies for Raising Transgender, Nonbinary, and Gender Nonconforming Teens

 LGBTQ-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE DOs and DON’Ts

A Guide for Understanding, Supporting, and Affirming LGBTQI2-S Children, Youth, and Families

Transcript

Episode 14- Marie Hommel

Andrea:. This morning, we have Marie, who is, um, the chief of agency operations of the county of San Diego, and she works with teams of social workers to support children, youth and families.

Marie is an expert in child abuse and neglect. In 2006, Marie and her husband, Mike, and then five year old son, Jacob, welcomed a baby boy into the family. The baby was named Austin, and in 2021, Austin came out as a transgender. The name and gender has been legally changed to Ashley Jules Hommel. Ashley is now 17 years old and has plans to transition via surgery in 2024. Welcome, Marie, we are so excited [00:04:00] to have 

Marie: thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. This is exciting.

Andrea: and, you know, Marie, I know you personally, and I'm going to just share that. And 1 of the reasons I really wanted you as a guest was because I have admired how you have supported Ashley. You know, as, as we would with children, but also from making sure that, you know, she's feeling secure and that her mental health is, um, is taking care of you have just been a phenomenal inspiration, I think, to any parent as they're watching their child go through something that maybe they don't understand or they want to support them through. I'd love to. I'd love to have you share a little bit about your background with with Ashley and your family and and then we'll get into the deep of it.

Marie: Sure. Uh, so when Ashley, so when I was pregnant with Ashley, I went in to do the ultrasound and they had actually told me at that time, oh, you're having a boy. And I, this is such a [00:05:00] funny memory, but I cried. I really wanted a girl. I really wanted a daughter. I had lost my mother when I was very young And I always thought I was going to have a daughter at some point and I did feel That we were probably going to have two children.

So I was a little disappointed. I mean I got over it quickly and Had a beautiful baby boy and and was totally happy being a boy mom and didn't have any issues But I do remember feeling a little a little bit of grief at that moment so Ashley was born in 2006 and She was a very striking baby. She had bright red hair and blue eyes She just attracted a lot of attention in public because of her unusual appearance.

And she was just delightful. She was an easygoing child, a very happy child, and just really was It was easy, particularly in comparison to my son, who was all alpha male, [00:06:00] very aggressive, you know, always getting into things, always getting in trouble, breaking things. We had a lot of behavioral things that we had to manage with our older son.

And Ashley was kind of the antithesis of that. She was a very easygoing little boy and we just, we just loved her and we took care of her. And we did. Think early on that perhaps there was something there along the spectrum, possibly of sexuality. We weren't really thinking in terms of gender that possibly she was not going to be heterosexual, but we really weren't sure.

And we didn't really do anything one way or the other, just sort of watched it unfold. And so we were, um, perhaps some other parents can relate to this. We were surprised in 2021 when she came to me. And just to give you a little bit of background on that, COVID had hit in 2020. The kids had been pulled out of school and she was going through a very serious depression.

And my husband and I were not sure. What to do, how to handle it, how to manage it. It had been through most of middle school. And we knew she was being bullied because we did get calls from the school about that. And what is interesting about Ashley is and a lot of people misinterpret kids who get bullied in this way.

She's not weak. She's not someone who doesn't stand up for herself. So she would very much fight back and sometimes she would be in trouble too because she would get aggressive. So it was definitely not her instigating it, but it was a lot of children calling her gay and she felt like this was just offensive and it did not identify who she was.

And today she now understands and articulates that the reason it was so hurtful is not because being called gay is a bad thing in her mind. It was because it wasn't the right label for her and she couldn't understand it. She understood that she was attracted to boys, but she did not think of herself as gay and she could not quite square all of that.

That's the way she describes it today, that it was felt just wrong to be called gay again, not because she didn't like gay people or gay kids or whatever. She, you know, she was totally open to that. I think it was more, the label was incorrect and she couldn't figure out why it was upsetting to her. She just, uh, gained a lot of weight because of the depression.

She, so we had thought maybe it was because she was just a little overweight that she was unhappy. We weren't really sure what was going on. We offered her counseling. We offered her, you know, to get more involved in other types of things. She was playing clarinet at the time. She's a very talented musician.

And so we spent a lot of, you know, energy on that with her. And then ultimately when COVID hit, she seemed happier to be out of school without the pressure of being bullied. And I thought it was fascinating because most kids didn't do well. And here's my child who started doing incredibly well. She started doing even better in school and she, she was really able to manage the online situation and she could be with, with kids when she wanted to be with kids and she could be on her own when she wanted to be on her own.

I think this was a huge gift because ultimately I think it helped her understand what was going on and felt incongruous for her. And she came to me in 2021. I was working from home at the time because of COVID. And sat down and, and I thought, I really thought in my head, this is the moment she's going to tell me she's gay.

Finally, we can all just be upfront about it. And, you know, um, I really did believe it cause I felt it coming. There were some things leading up to that point. Uh, she had lost a lot of weight. She had been coming to my gym. She had been. Doing some things. She seemed to be feeling better and I, I did think that that was just giving her the confidence to come out.

And so she sat down and she said, I need to talk to you about something. And I said, you know, what, what is it? And she said, I have been Googling hormone treatment. And I just, you know, because I am a social worker, I just kind of took it in stride. And I said, okay, well, what do you mean by that? What is, what are you thinking?

And she said, I, I think I'd be happier as a girl. And so that was the first time it was ever spoken out loud to me. And I. You know, took that in and processed it is, you know, for a time and, and I immediately the next day started making phone calls, seeing if I could get some appointments for her to kind of further look into what this meant for her.

And so 1 of the 1st things I did was I contacted radius. They have a gender affirming clinic here in the county of San Diego. They have the only gender affirming clinic for youth in San Diego. And so it is theprimary. juncture for most children who are transgender. And sure.

Andrea: because I just want to interject the fact that you must have built a lifelong, uh, relationship with Ashley of trust because at such a young age, she felt comfortable coming to you and sharing something that was very, very intimate. Um, and I know this is a very big, broad question, but.

What do you think? How do you think you built that trust? I mean, what? You ask a lot of questions. I hear what, what ideas do you think parents can use to help solidify that? Yeah,

Marie: is, you know, I became a social worker, not so I could learn the skills, but because I already had them and I needed to develop them further. And I think a lot of people in the helping profession do this. I think we have some natural skills and then we come and we learn more and we become better and more skilled at understanding dynamics of relationships.

So that all being said, I think with both of my children, I am extremely. I don't have a preconceived notion of who they are or how they should be or what they should do in their lives. And I've never been the type of parent who pressures them in any way. And sometimes it can be a weakness. Sometimes, maybe I needed to have set a bigger boundary.

Then I did because I'm so accepting, you know, Oh, I can understand why you did that. I can understand why you feel that way. And I think that a lot of us in the helping profession have this problem. We're often accused of being too easy going on our children or whatever. And, and I come from a very conservative family and I come from a family where discipline was, was.

Was harsher than the type of discipline I use and, and, and was respected to be that way. I grew up, you know, with Southern parents and, you know, yes, ma'am, no, sir. I grew up, you know, being spanked. I grew up being hit when things were not the way that my parents thought they should be. I grew up, um, being told I couldn't leave the table until I ate everything.

I mean, I had some really. serious discipline in my home. It was very rigid. And so I think part of it, too, was a reaction to that. And so I think the relationship I built with Ashley and with my son is just I'm going to accept you no matter what and I'm going to understand the mistakes that you make and I'm going to try to help and I'm not going to try to intervene because I know intervening is not very effective, particularly with teenagers, like it really, you know, it's this whole thing like we can't tell our teenagers, oh, you can't be friends with that person.

It doesn't work. So I often feel like parents are often on the wrong track in that regard. I am like, okay, I don't love that. That's your friend, but we're going to figure out how to make this friend safe for you. Bye.

Emie: mm-Hmm.

Marie: And so I think that developed a lot of trust with her. And, and for whatever reason, I am extremely close to her.

We are very, very close as mother and daughter. And, and I've always felt that with her. And so I sometimes look back to when she was a boy and, and how different her relationship was. with her versus her brother. Her brother, I'm very close with. I'm very close with my oldest son, but he is very much different in the way that he interacts with me.

And now that he's an adult male, it's even more different. He, he does not look to me as a source of, you know, what he needs. He's very independent. He looks to himself and he tends to be the protector even in the relationship with me. So he has developed that sort of mentality, uh, that you see in a lot of, a lot of boys.

And so, our relationship's different, but I've always felt very close to her. I've always felt like she can tell me anything. She has not always felt she can tell me everything. And that's another thing I'm very accepting of. I'm like, okay, well, you don't have to tell me that now. Like, or ever.

Andrea: Right. That's, that's a beautiful gift actually to give your child

Marie: yeah, yeah.

Andrea: that, you know, I, I heard other than that last thing, I heard three things in there. One, you. You guys ever see that, um, that, uh, I don't know if it's a meme or something where they say that your life's dissatisfaction comes from when your expectations don't mean meet what actually is occurring or the biggest grief comes from that, you know, I think we all.

tend to have these expectations, or many of us do, and that's where things can get muddy. And you saying that you just really didn't have those expectations of your kids, um, not that you [00:16:00] didn't have any expectations of your kids, but their life is theirs.

Marie: Right.

Andrea: I think that is so important, is recognizing and being able to establish that their life is theirs, even if it's not the life that you had originally.

Thought it was going to be right. And I think that adds to a strengthening of a relationship Right

Marie: I love this line that you sometimes hear when you're linked up to the transgender community. If you've met one transgender person, you've met one transgender person.

Emie: Oh, I

Marie: And I think it's this idea that that is true no matter what, and it's especially true when we try to lump together and categorize and put people in boxes.

I'm very resistant to that. And I always have been like individual differences matter. And I think that there's a lot of, I love that we're having this discussion too, because I think there's a lot of misinformation out there about who a transgender person is. And there's a lot of lumping together and there's this huge spectrum, just like everything.

And I think my daughter really, you know, kind of, shows how that's so very, very true and how there are biases even within the community. There are biases against the community and there's biases within the community. And so I think that that's part of what's so interesting about these types of complex youth issues.

Andrea: and and I think even just in general if you're grouping in general, you're not identifying who and the special traits about about any person and You know, let's take a very generic approach to this You've got a family who has a family business and you expect that child to just get into the [00:18:00] family business. You're setting up a place for hurt, disappointment, and um, and future conflict between the parent and the child and you're not supporting what it is that they are the person they truly want to be.

Marie: Right,

Andrea: And, you know, obviously now that is much more. complex as you get into the transgender community, but I think that, um, as parents, we really need to put that separation in place and say, this is, I'm going to guide them so that they are safe.

And that was the second point that you brought up is you said, you may not like this, um, friend, but I'm going to find a way for you, for you to be friends with that person safely. I thought, wow, that's a very, um, interesting point is that our job as parents is to put them into environments that are safe for them trying to mold them into who we want them to be.

So I thought that was a very interesting point thatyou made. And probably one, getting back to my question about how you established that relationship with her, she felt safe because you always put her in a place that, um, that you knew that she knew that you loved her and that you were going to keep her safe.

Marie: Now, and which reminds me of like a, a recent event with her that was extremely difficult and Just to be clear, I've cleared everything I say with my daughter before I do these things. She's very open, but early in September of this past year, she came to me one night, it was right after school started, and came in my bedroom, and she said, I've done something really bad.

I've done something really, really bad. And I, I was like, okay, you know, I was asleep, turn on the light. And I was like, what is it? She says, I've cut myself. And, you know, again, the, you know, the, the mom in me is horrified. I just, I,

Andrea:cutting, like, as

Marie: as in self harming. And cause I thought my acceptance of her and my closeness of her.

You know, my belief system before that moment was, you know, I've got her in all the right services, you know I'm paying attention to her. I'm supporting her. Her dad supports her. All these people support her. She's not going to Commit suicide. She's not going to hurt herself. She's not going to use drugs she's not going to do all these things that you hear about her way more prevalent in the transgender community because of a lot of the Societal pressures that maybe if a family's not accepting things of that nature, and then my own child who's accepted and has resources and is loved, still engaged in very concerning behavior.

And so I think it's really important to understand, too, that even if you're a good parent, and even if you have a close and trusting relationship, you cannot prevent all the harm that your child might experience. And it was very devastating to me. To acknowledge that I'm not everything

Andrea: Sure. Yeah.

Marie: still experiences pain that she doesn't know what to do with she still copes with a teenage mind and You know, there's still work to always be done in that area and I can't prevent her from her worst instincts that she's you know, she's got to work on that herself and And I can only guide or help her and tell her what I think and then hope that she does it again, creating safety for her.

How do I create an environment where, well, I was glad she felt safe enough to come to me. And how do I keep her from engaging in this behavior? And anyone who is the parent of a teenager probably knows it's extremely difficult. They're going to do things that are unsafe. They're going to do things that you did that were unsafe.

And. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And so how do I just make them do it with more awareness than I had so they remain safer? You know, I think we're all just miracle products when we get to this age of just understanding, wow, that was pretty risky. I shouldn't have done that. But then you have a child who's like, that's risky.

I'm going to do it and I'll let you know, you know,

Emie: It's all about leaving those lines of communication open and establishing the trust, which you speak so well to. What did your conversations look like prior to that, um, when, when Ashley was going through a lot of the depression and some of those mental health struggles?

Marie: so a lot of Ashley's mental health is. First of all, I don't know how much of it is just organic or runs through my family. I definitely have my own issues with depression. My mother certainly did. My mother died way too young. I think part of it was related to her mental health. Um, that's not to say she was, she committed suicide.

She did not. She died of natural causes. But she just, I think the mental health state, she would, didn't help her to maintain health. And so as an adult, I've been very focused on how I maintain my own mental health so that I don't, you know, have major medical issues too young and things of that nature.

And how do I remain present here on this earth with my children as long as I can? And so with Ashley, It, it's, it's two pronged. I don't know which parts of her, cause she has been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I'm not sure what part of that is related to gender dysmorphia and which part is organic.

Cause it seems to be a thread through my family. So, so there are two things too that Ashley likes to deal with. She has a therapist who's very focused on transgender issues and sometimes that therapist isn't. working for her. She kind of comes in and out of therapy because sometimes her issues aren't related to gender dysmorphia.

Sometimes her issues are just related to being a teen, feeling overwhelmed, you know, not knowing who she is, what she wants to do. And, and also her deep, deep frustration that being transgender, it seems to be taking a long time, right? And that's one of the things that people don't know is there's no fast track.

To, uh, gender integration. And I think that's by design. I think that professionals in this arena want to be very careful that we are dealing with a youth who is certain versus uncertain. And again, it's a spectrum. And she didn't start out a hundred percent certain, not even my own child. She started out wanting to explore what her options were.

And so we went to, to give you a little idea of the process, we went, before you do hormone therapy, here in San Diego, if you're working through the one clinic we have, you have to go through three] separate phases Like interviews with a licensed social worker therapist who then will determine whether you are ready for medical intervention, because medical intervention is very serious.

And to some extent, there are parts of it that are irreversible. And for trans women, once you start taking female hormones at that level, it permanently changes your body. Your body will never go back. To what it would have done without the intervention now things will happen if she would stop taking the estrogen Facial hair will start to come in things of that nature But but the changes that are made through the process of taking estrogen are permanent Ashley will never grow broad shoulders, even if she stops taking the estrogen Ashley will never not have like curves after she stops taking estrogen if she chose to stop taking estrogen Now if you're transgender for life, which I believe my daughter is, she will take estrogen for the rest of her life. Every day for the rest of her life.

Andrea: you have two therapists for her that focus on two different avenues. So basically one is for

Marie: One is to, for, for transgender issues and gender dysmorphia, the other is through Radies, and it's a, it's a therapist every child has to see before they can seek medical treatment, she doesn't go to that therapist and say, I'm really mad at my mom today because of this. She go, that therapist job is to check in to see her readiness for the next stages of the

Emie: Oh.

Marie: So once that therapist signs off, she was able to begin hormone treatment. And Ashley did go through a period where her original pronouns were he, they, Then she transitioned to, she, they, and then right after she started hormone treatment, she said, I want female pronouns. She, her hers. That's, that's who I am.

That's who I'm going to be. And so even she kind of transitioned as she started going through the process

Andrea: And then,

Marie: kind of letting her identity go as a boy.

Andrea: so that changing of identity.

Marie: Mm-Hmm.

Andrea: obviously has got significant impacts on a number of different things. So she came, then you decided to put her in with a therapist to help with that, but then also the whole other mess that teenagers get into. And, um, and so this therapist focuses on things like the cutting and, and some of the other things.

Marie: Correct. Correct. And she also has. A lot of other people on her team, so to speak, she has her, you know, original pediatrician she's had since she was a baby. She has her, um, she has a psychiatrist who prescribes medication to her] and she has her, now she has her surgeon as part of her team. We've met with her surgeon already for next year.

And so her, her team kind of develops as you go along. And so, Um, and all of the team members have to write and she also has her endocrinologist, who is the person managing for her hormones. That's also through Rady's Children's Hospital here in San Diego. And so every step of the way, her team kind of.

Transitions to?

Andrea: Okay. Now, interestingly enough, with the hormones, I know that puberty is a big time for children who are struggling with mental Excuse me. Excuse me. With, um, mental health. That's when we see a significant increase of some of the mental health challenges coming through. And now she is on, um, hormones. Are you seeing that that influx of hormones is also, um, maybe triggering some of these additional events like the depression and the cutting

Emie: Yeah.

Marie: God, that is a really good question. And to be honest, I don't really know. What I can tell you is, when she was going through puberty, and to be clear, my daughter went through puberty as a boy, and completed puberty as a boy. So, that's another issue if you have a child who's transgender, is when to start intervening.

Well, I didn't know to intervene until she came to me. So, at that point, in 2021, she had already gone through puberty. So there was no conversation about puberty blockers because we'd actually already crossed over. Some people, some children who know their transgender before puberty can sometimes intervene prior to puberty and take puberty blockers.

She never took that, never needed that. She already went through it. So what's interesting about that, a lot of, and there's a lot of controversy about whether or not to do that. And I think that that controversy, if it's being talked about by well meaning people and not people who are just afraid, um, can be, is, is important because puberty blockers are, are a big deal and we need to be really careful that the child is very certain.

And again, I think that's why Radies has this three. You know, three times where you get assessed by this therapist who is well educated in this area and kind of determines that. But the one thing that is a little difficult, a lot of people don't understand this, is my daughter went through puberty as a boy, therefore her voice dropped.

Andrea: Right,

Marie: Your voice does not go back up.

Emie: Yeah.

 Marie: no nothing that's going to make Ashley Hommel's voice go back to pre puberty sounds. She can do voice therapy. There is voice box surgery. There are other things you can do. But we, we are in a place where that is not like a natural way to do that.

It's not going to happen. It is done and her voice is deep. And, um, the good news is it's not baritone. It's just deep

Andrea: right, right,

Marie: She can make it be baritone. And she does do that to be humorous sometimes to scare people. But, uh, but generally she, her voice is deeper than most women's voices are. And it will, and she is in voice therapy to, to speak at a higher pitch.

Um, but that can strain your vocal cords and so she is, so a lot of times you will meet, uh, transgender adults who are women who just elect not to even worry about their voice because it's, it's a really difficult thing to reverse. So, so considering whether or not to do puberty blockers, it's a big decision, but there are some benefits and that would have been a benefit to her, would have been to maintain a more [00:32:00] feminine voice.

But that's not, that's not how we went through it. That's not one of our options. And we just, you know, we deal with what we, what we have now. She didn't know before she went through puberty or when she was in puberty. She didn't fully understand what her feelings were.

Emie: Yeah. There's a lot to navigate and, and you just reminded me that you're tracking a lot of new concepts and a lot of doctors and a lot of practitioners managing the information coming in and even the scheduling of appointments, managing. Your daughter's mental health, your mental health. How did you as the mom take care of yourself?

How do you manage? How do you cope? Ha ha

Marie: out. I actually, that's a great question and I think that that's so important. Emmy is sort of the self care piece of this. I can't make my daughter happy. I can't make her life

Emie: Mm.

Marie: Uh, I, I just, and, and I love her so much and so deeply like any other parent and I want her to be happy and, and to have a fulfilling life and I see where it's often not missing the mark and it's profoundly, profoundly sad for me because you just, you know, as a parent, you just can't be everything to your child, even when you're close, even when you're supporting and so for me, self care is It's extraordinarily important and I've had to redefine that for myself these past few months because I have been unable to be in the gym and I think a lot of it for me is just I'm a bit of an introvert.

I spend time alone. I listen to podcasts. It is actually one of my favorite pastimes. So once I figure out yours, it'll be great. I'll have a whole new vein to tap, right? And I just, and I love, and I love podcasting. I just love to kind of be in my own world and be in my own head. And that really relaxes me a lot.

And right now, because it's not the gym, it's just getting up early. Like I, you know, I used to get up at four to go to the gym. Now I get up at four and I just kind of listen to podcasts, do Wordle, drink a cup of coffee, sit with my cats, you know, just kind of set, you know, set myself for the day and. And most importantly, I just tried to remind myself that I'm not, I'm not in control of anything

Emie: Yeah.

Marie: and I'm only in control of myself and I want myself to be as peaceful as possible and, and it's hard.

I, and Andrea knows me well, I have a very intense personality. I'm not always relaxed. It's very hard for me to get to that Zen place. And so I spend a lot of time now, but I have the extra time. Just focusing on what's good in my life. It's it's very challenging, you know for any parent out there with a teen And then you add on whatever extra thing you're dealing with, because every single teen, it's not just being a teen.

There's other things that are happening, and it's difficult. And it was difficult with my son, and I had sought therapy with my son, because I didn't, because he was not doing what I wanted him to do, right? He was not living up to my

Emie: What? Ha ha ha! Ha ha

Marie: and I thought, wow, that was hard. It'd be so great because Austin, former name, was such an easy child, there were not going to be issues. And sure enough, that's not how it works. So I just really, the other thing I do for self care is I do, I just, I just reach out to other people and, you know, find the right supportive group of people to be around. And as I get older, I do definitely put more arm's length between me and someone I view as not being a positive support.

And I've done that through Ashley a lot. Actually, it's really interesting. I've done that through Ashley a lot because I do finally have a line in the sand. I used to not have many boundaries. It's like, everybody's great. You know, everyone has something worth loving and caring about. Social worker to my heart, you know, but if you can't be on board with my daughter, you cannot be in my orbit.

Emie: Yeah, choosing your community.

Marie: Yeah, I just, you just cannot be, that is not what I need. It's not what my daughter needs, and really it's not what society needs, but we'll let that one play out.

Emie: Yeah.

Marie: But I just, that has been my first boundary that I've noticed in myself. I just can't, I can't do it. I can't do the negativity, negativity around transgender.

I just cannot understand it. I think it

Emie: Mm hmm.

Marie: ill informed people who are afraid of, I don't even know what. You know, the perfect example, and Andrea's seen my daughter and Emmy, I'm happy to share with you. She's very attractive. She's six feet tall, long blonde hair, looks like a girl for sure. Men do not notice that she is not born a girl when she's walking around in public.

She gets a lot, yeah, she's turning heads. She's very, she's way more attractive than I am. I don't know why that happened, but

Andrea: Take that back.

Emie: We give them everything.

Andrea: up the importance of having a community and a supportive community. And I think that's why Emmy and I even started this was because I think the crux of self care. Is around people who understand you and support you. And I think so often as moms that, um, where our children are struggling with whatever we hibernate, we kind of go in and we cut off that important community or we do what you and I do, which is open our doors to everybody on a very superficial level.

And I think that, you know, having that community that understands you and allows you to speak vulnerably is really, really important. go ahead. You

Emie: along the same lines, but when I say it out loud, it might sound like a quick, hard pivot. So I apologize, but something else I was wondering, Andrea and I have talked a lot about that we would even make it its own episode, um, on how you communicate or not communicate with your spouse as you navigate these conversations, all the mental health, um, struggles that You've seen Ashley go through or your own or really any of our kids.

Can you speak a little bit to how you and your husband work through those conversations and and situations together?

Marie: Yeah, you know, that's, that's a great question too. I think that, I mean, I feel really fortunate. I have, um, a really, I have a great husband. He is, uh, has, shares, we both have very intense personalities. And somehow we've made it work. And I think what's interesting is, I know, believe me. Um, I think what's, I know, right, where is he? I think what's really interesting is. He, you know, everything with him is different, but one of the things, or one of the main ways that this has gone down, so to speak, in our family is he has really let me take the lead when it comes to my daughter. And I think that that's been important. I have the closer relationship.

I have the requisite knowledge to get the resources that we need. And. I think that he, he definitely has his point of view. It is sometimes different than mine. He worries about her mental health in a different way than I do. So for example, If she's going through a pretty dark time, you know, she'll, there are lots of behavioral indicators.

Her room will be a mess. She will sleep more. She will disengage from things that we've signed her up for, which is frustrating to my husband. Number one, we've signed her up for something. And number two, you know, he's thinking. About the financial responsibility of raising this family and moving us forward.

And so for him, it's, it's a frustration that she is not going to the gym because we paid for it or go into her piano lesson because we paid for it. And so he kind of sees it more as like, you know, those kinds of behavioral indicators frustrate him more than they do me because I see it more like this is about her depression.

We need to figure out what's going on. We need to get her back on track and For the most part, he follows my lead. That's not to say we don't have some very deep and difficult conversations around what we want for her. And. So that being said, I think what's really important for us or what has been important in our marriage is first of all, just the commitment that we have to staying together and being together and working through these issues.

You know, I married someone who I can say you're, this is, this is where I need you to be. And in the moment, he'll be like, I'm not going to be there,

Emie: What? Sure.

Marie: has the ability to go back and process and come back to the table. And I think I do as well, because he's often had to say to me, you're being too aggressive. You're being, you know, you're not hearing me or whatever. And I just think that part of it is, I mean, we all like to say, well, it comes down to communication and it does, but it also comes down to time.

Like, sometimes I'm just have to give him time. To kind of come to his own understanding and sometimes he has to give me time to calm down again I have an intense personality. I come at things very hard And sometimes he just recognizes that and he'll say You know i'm gonna step back from you And we're gonna revisit And his biggest fear is a very different fear than the one I have about her I have a lot of fears about her Being attacked or abused or harassed when I'm not there like actual physical safety issues Because transgender people are twice as likely to be attacked violently to be raped To be misused or to use drugs and suffer from more significant mental health issues.

And so for me that is the big worry, right? Are any of those things going to happen to her? And is she going to be cared for by a boyfriend? She very much wants a boyfriend. By a boyfriend or a man who's going to be sophisticated enough to also manage the transgender issue. My husband's concern is more, are there any men out there who are going to want to be with her long term?

You know, the pool is much smaller. And, and is it, you know, so if the pool is smaller, is she going to get a quality man? That's his worry. And I, I, that does not worry me. I believe there are plenty of men out there who will. to navigate to navigate soften it. And she's already had some she's been on date.

She's kissed a boy. She's done things that are, you know, um, typical ofgirls her age and So I know it's out there. It's just, you know, I, and I also believe that teenage boys are not really by and large ready. So there aren't a lot of people right now who, who are totally open to this. But as she gets older, I think, I think it'll be easier.

I think there will be more men who are sophisticated enough to be a partner with her. So that's what I worry about. My husband worries about, are they out there? And, you know, we just kind of navigate it together and he's never, people always ask me, cause he was a former Marine, you know, again, this is not the family you would have thought would have a transgender child.

And. He's never once been anything but supportive of her from the very beginning. He's always looking to figure out ways to help her and get her the things she needs. He's been very involved. One of the issues we have is with insurance. Um, our old insurance company was giving us a very hard time getting electrolysis done, which is another thing that people don't talk about.

They don't talk about the process of getting their children through these things, but she has to have electrolysis for a year before she can have the surgery. a year and it's very painful. I've never had it. It sounds painful, but it's painful. And so every week she has to go and get this treatment for a year before she can have the surgery.

And our old insurance is giving us a hard time, but this is my husband's way of helping. He gets on the phone, he starts calling the insurance companies. He starts calling the clinic where we're going. He starts setting it all up and, and getting everything put into place. And, and like, I'm terrible at that stuff.

I have no patience. I get really angry. Then I feel bad that I fussed at someone who's just the messenger, you know, just, and it's really his wheelhouse. He does it. He does it calmly. He works through all the details and thank God because I get on the phone and I just want to like. Tear someone a new one and that's just not the approach that we need, you

Emie: Yeah, you each have your roles. Yeah,

Marie: yeah,

Andrea: your roles.

Marie: Yeah,

Emie: out. I appreciate that. You share all that because, um. Yeah. And all of this really just to look into your lives. Um, and in these very tender spaces, it's so generous of you to let us in like that and to have the opportunity to see, um, how your larger family works and such a complete, loving, highly communicative. Trusting way. It's very inspirational.

Marie: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

Andrea: Well, Marie, I have really appreciated, like, like Emmy said, you went to a vulnerable place. You shared your story. And I think that I just admire you and Mike. I really do. And, and of course, Ashley, just adore her too. So

Marie: yeah. She is one. As you know, she is, she's funny and she's charming and she's beautiful. And so there's a lot of charisma there that she has. And I think it's really going to carry her really far.

Andrea: Yeah, you keep hanging out there. Make sure you get her through all the, uh, the. Other teenage stuff that we have to get through. You've got it. You know, that frontal lobe I keep hearing isn't developed until 25 and then I heard 28. so we've got, we've still got several,

Marie: thinking 54, if we're looking at my

Andrea: I agree with you on that.

Emie: Yeah. Aw, thank you so much, Marie.