Episode 17: Library Etiquette and Why Dear Abby Got it So Wrong

Hello, Hi, and welcome to Medium Lady Reads this is episode 17, “Library Etiquette and Why Dear Abby Got it So Wrong.”

In this episode, Jillian and Erin are diving into the realm of library etiquette and why it’s essential in fostering a positive reading environment. Libraries are sanctuaries for book lovers and many others within our communities, and understanding proper etiquette ensures that everyone can enjoy their time there to the fullest. However, sometimes people can take that etiquette too far… listen to this episode to learn more. Be sure to tag them (@jillianfindinghappy and @medium.lady) on Instagram, and tell us what you think about libraries and library etiquette.

In This Episode:

• A staple of every episode, the ladies check in with each other to see how their reading is going.
• Erin and Jillian discuss what library etiquette means to them, and how it’s changed through the years. 
• Have you ever wondered why library etiquette matters? Erin and Jillian discuss why in this episode.
• Each woman shares some etiquette violations that you should be aware of.
• Erin shares some things you should expect when you go to the library so that you can manage your expectations.
• Ready to debunk some misconceptions? Jillian and Erin go through this list of things a librarian wrote to Dear Abby to share how one should behave in the library. Do you agree with any of these?
• If you like to reminisce, join Erin and Jillian as they spend some time discussing memories from their own childhood library experiences.
• If you’re someone who reads books because of the best-seller listing on the cover, you’re going to love this week’s hot takes. 
• Finally, the women check in with each of their holds lists

Books Mentioned in this Episode:

• All We Ever Wanted by Emily Giffin
• A Love Song for Ricki Wilde by Tia Williams
• The Beauty of Your Face by Sahar Mustafah
• Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir
• The Waters by Bonnie Jo Campbell
• Against the Loveless World by Susan Abulhawa 
• Good Material by Dolly Alderton
• Lunar New Year Love Story by Gene Luen Yang 
• This Could Be Us by Kennedy Ryan
• Canadian Boyfriend by Jenny Holiday
• The Mountain is You by Brianna Wiest
• A Study in Drowning by Ava Reid
• Chain-Gang All-Stars by Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah
• Funny Story by Emily Henry
• This Summer Will Be Different by Carley Fortune

Transcript

If your child throws a tantrum, screams or continually whines, not even tantrum, just a whiner.

You've got a whiner.

Take your whiner home.

Writers don't like books.

No.

He or she probably needs a nap, a snack, or simply your undivided attention.

While you can probably tune him out, other patrons cannot.

Another one that made me so angry because...

So...

Yep, unsympathetic to parents and stuff.

It's so judgmental and yes, unsympathetic.

There have been definitely times when I've been at our library where there's been a child they're throwing a tantrum because they don't want to leave or they want a book that they can't actually have or they're just whining because that's what kids do.

And I would never...

And I mean, I am a parent, so maybe this is why, but I would never, ever complain about something like that.

Never.

I would just expect it to happen.

Yeah, this is very much like children should be seen and not heard, type of like mentality.

Although this post is from 2005, so it's like not even 20 years ago.

Hello, I, and welcome to Medium Lady Reads.

This is episode 17, Library Edekit.

Why, dear Abby, got it so wrong.

Hello, everyone.

I'm Erin, a mom of three, a hospital administrator in Ontario, Canada, and the host and founder of the Medium Lady Community and Medium Lady Talks podcast.

And I'm Jillian, an Instagram content strategist for bookish people, a mom to two based in Buffalo, New York.

Together, we're thrilled to bring you another episode of Medium Lady Reads, a podcast about reading and self-care, a passionate love for the public library, and all of our thoughts and opinions on book culture having its moment.

Oh, all right.

So hi, Erin.

How are you?

I'm good, Jillian.

How are you?

I'm very well.

So before we get into the meat of the episode, I want to check in with you and see how you're doing with your reading.

How are things going?

Um, I think things are going well, but I have a little bit of like a book overwhelm right now.

So I need to just get myself in check because I have so many highly anticipated books in my hands right now.

I did not manage my hold's list appropriately.

I did not strategically put things on suspension.

And right now I have six books that I really wish I could be reading all six at once.

And then I have like another maybe four or five that are really good books that I'm happy to have.

But I think Jillian, I'm going to have to do something creative to just choose one or two of these books and send the rest back to the library because I'm a bit of a hoarder right now.

And our episode is all about library etiquette.

And I am breaking a lot of library etiquette rules with these books that I have right now.

Um, but it's been a good week for reading.

I finished three books this week.

That's impressive.

Last week I think I finished no books.

So then this week to finish three finished, all we ever wanted by Emily Giffin, which was our buddy readbook for March.

I finished the a love song for Ricky Wilde by Tia Williams.

And then I also finished the beauty of your face by Sahara Mustafa, which is just like if I had to rank them, I would rank them.

The beauty of your face.

Love song for Ricky Wilde.

And then all we ever wanted.

They're in third place of those books.

But like that's a pretty great reading week.

And it feels good to finish books.

I do get a bit of a dopamine hit when I get to put things in my tracker and all that jazz.

So yeah.

But that's enough about me, Jillian.

How is your reading going?

First, I want to say that if all we ever wanted was is the bottom, it must have been really bad in your opinion because I know you were struggling with Ricky Wilde.

You were having some issues midweek.

I don't want to.

I mean, do you want my unsolicited Ricky Wilde review?

I could give it, but but I don't want to spoil it for readers.

And I think I had a very, I had a very specific expectation going into that book.

And I wish I hadn't.

I wish I had, I had checked my expectations before I went into that book.

I think I would have, I would have had less reader resistance the whole way through.

But yeah.

But listener, know that I absolutely loved it and gave it five stars.

So like take it with the grain of salt either way.

You know, it's, it's, you're going to love it or hate it or I didn't hate it.

I didn't hate it.

I gave it 3.5 stars.

But I really, it wasn't until like halfway through the book that I was like, oh, you're expecting something that you're never going to get.

You just need to change your expectations and relax and you'll have a better time.

Like, oh, now we're into it.

But like, I just think I was comparing it to seven days in June the whole time.

Yeah.

And it is not that.

No, it is not seven days in June.

It's telling a different story.

It's funny.

It's campy.

It's kind of silly.

Yes.

And if you go in expecting something that's funny and campy and silly, then you're going to love it.

You're going to give it five stars.

For sure, for sure, for sure, for sure.

But I kept thinking it was sort of like taking itself too seriously.

And then I realized, oh, I don't think she's taking herself that seriously.

I think I as the reader, I'm making the mistake of taking this too seriously.

Yeah.

And then it all kind of opened up for me and I was able to enjoy it more.

I think I mean, I was struggling with it in the very beginning before, because I too was looking at it like, this is going to be like seven days in June.

And I'm going to just fall in love with it.

But then you get into when there's parts of it that are retrospective.

And you get into the past.

And I'm like, wait a second.

This is weird.

But then I once I got into like, that's how it's going to be.

I was like, okay, this is really great.

I'm really loving this.

It's not as spicy as seven days in June.

No, it isn't.

So the other thing is like, I was waiting to raise my blood pressure.

And I never really got there.

But it's very lovable.

The cast of characters is incredible.

The writing is beautiful.

It's very evocative.

It paints a beautiful picture.

It does.

You should read this book.

You should read this book.

It is a good book.

My reader experience was thwarted by a couple of high expectations.

So there we go.

Check in plus a mini review.

But Jillian, tell me more about how your reading's going.

Up until this week, it was going really, really well.

I was finishing a lot of books.

I was reading good books.

I feel like really positive about the books that I was finishing.

Don't ask me what I finished because I can't remember off the top of my head.

But I was finishing a lot of books.

But then this week, I don't know why I've been so tired at night that I barely, because I am also reading the beauty of your face and loving it.

But it's taking me forever to get through because I keep falling asleep.

And that is not because of the book that is all me.

But I can't say it's been bad.

Reading has been good.

It's just been a little bit slower.

But you can give yourself a permission slip because of the time change.

True, true.

I didn't even think of that.

I was blaming more hormone, hormonolise problems.

I mean, listen, you throw your hormones in with the time change.

And that sounds like a perfect cocktail for a sleepy week.

Exhaustion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Honestly, every time.

Yeah.

Now, speaking of I finished the beauty of your face this week, I raced to the finish line because I had an on Libby and I knew it was going to expire.

I also loved it.

I gave that book five stars.

So, Jillian, I'm glad you're enjoying it.

I hope you do enjoy it.

There are parts of it that are propulsive, but there are parts of it that are very slow and introspective.

So also, you know, the type of book that it is.

This is a book about a Palestinian-American woman who is presently the principle of a Muslim school for girls that has an active shooter.

And then there are flashbacks, many flashbacks that sort of explain the context for the woman's experience and how she came to sort of have her own coming of age story.

Really powerful story.

But I'll be curious once you hit the end.

I'll be really curious what you think at the end.

So.

Okay.

I will keep you posted.

Thank you.

Okay.

Great check in.

But today we are diving into the realm of library etiquette.

And you know we love to do a library episode every now and then.

We wanted to talk about why it's essential to foster a positive reading environment, bringing the best of your behavior to that environment.

Libraries are sanctuaries for book lovers and many others within our communities.

And understanding that proper etiquette ensures that everyone can enjoy their time there to the fullest.

However, sometimes people can take that etiquette too far, which stay tuned.

We'll talk more about that a little bit later in the episode.

Aaron, what does library etiquette mean to you?

And why do you think it's so crucial?

Yeah, I really love this question.

Although I think the word etiquette feels really narrow for what we're going to be talking about today.

But it's kind of the best word I think that's maybe out there.

Library etiquette is like etiquette you would have in any other space.

It's what are the norms of behavior that are needed to be in the space to kind of care for the space.

But I do think that those norms have evolved from the sort of academic dry stuffy quiet library spaces that used to exist back when we were kids.

And I think that library etiquette in 2024, it looks a little different.

You have to think a little bit with a little bit of a broader perspective.

I think that a lot of the public might not know this, but I think libraries and librarians, they do know this.

They're really aware that library etiquette is changed.

And I think that they want to make it easier for more kinds of people to use the library.

We know more the way you're expected to behave in a space is what will kind of act as a filter for people who choose to access that space.

So if you go to a space and you know how people are going to behave, that's one of the things that sort of like gives you access to that space.

When you don't know how people are going to behave or you don't think you can behave in that way, you know, as a parent, for example, I don't bring my kids to five star restaurants because they can't behave according to the norms of the restaurant.

We use these norms in all kinds of spaces and the library is one that kind of has this really like crystallized idea of how we behave in the space.

But really like we really don't see etiquette just at libraries.

We see it in places like coffee shops, certain stores, yoga class, etc.

When it comes to library etiquette, this probably today looks like things like respecting quiet zones, returning books on time, treating library staff with kindness.

Those are just a few examples of what would be proper library etiquette.

What about you, Jillian?

Since libraries are communal spaces and we want to respect each other's space and resources, it is essential for everyone's enjoyment.

I feel like, you know, we're going to, there's going to be times when you're going to return a book on time.

There are going to be times when you bring your kids and you know, there's maybe a study group going on.

But overall, if we go in there with the intention of being considerate and caring for others, then I think that we're all going to be winning when it comes to the library world.

As an adult, you're not going to take a seat in the kid section and expect it to be quiet.

So the library that we go to right now, it's a smaller library and the kid section is built in right with the adult grown-up section.

And while there are fun things to do in that section, they have, you know, always have markers out and arts and crafts and they have books set out for kids to read, you know, specific ones.

When you're there, no one expects the kids to be quiet, at least since we've been going to this library.

But the adult section, while it is right there, it's still there's like this understood that there's a line.

And you don't go past that line when you have your kids with you, you know, if the kids are loud in the kid section, which is, it's all one big room.

But when you're in that section of the library, nobody expects it to be quiet.

So basically, I, it comes down to understanding and being sure you're, you're being the rules of the section that you're in, I guess.

Sort of.

Yeah, no, I think you're right.

I think that, if you're looking for silence and you're going to the library, you really should do your homework in advance because a lot of library websites will tell you what's accessible and available.

And if you want to book a quiet room, some libraries have that and some libraries don't.

My library branch is similar to yours, Jillian.

It's a small library in the middle of a huge community center.

So not only is the foot traffic not just library folks, but it's anybody else who's interacting in the community center space.

And so ambient sound even from the community center might come through the library at any time.

In addition to that, like the stacks are so close to the children section that you certainly could not expect to have a pristine soundless environment.

And it would be almost impossible even in the adult section to keep the kids away from that section too.

And then in the back of the library, there's comfortable chairs and tables.

There's a few study carols, but even in the very back of the library where I feel like the sound would amplify and carry the least, you probably still expect you're going to hear people talking.

You're going to hear conversation.

Yeah, I don't think the library is the silent place that it once used to be.

Yeah.

Later in the episode, we're talking about some of our memories that we had from when we were kids, but it was just such a different world when we were kids, at least in my library.

But before we get into that, let's take a deeper dive into why adhering to library etiquette is so important.

I think the modern library etiquette of 2024 makes sure that libraries remain welcoming and accessible to all members of the community.

And this is about being a person that recognizes your own experience isn't the only one that matters.

As you move through the world, this is something I'm trying to teach my kids about all the time.

It's a way to amplify your own happiness is to care about other people in your own space and in your own community, prioritizing social connection as we use spaces like libraries.

Part of your social connection is showing people that you care about their experience by behaving in a certain kind of way, you know, from maintaining a peaceful atmosphere for studying, preserving the integrity of the library materials, practicing good etiquette enriches the library experience for everybody.

I think the key to library etiquette over other kinds of etiquette like a coffee shop or a yoga class is that you're accessing that space for free, which means all patrons have to acknowledge that the privilege from using the space comes from something other than money.

And when you go to spend time at a coffee shop, you sort of you've paid for the goods and then you sit down and use the space.

When you take a yoga class, you've also paid for the class.

You've garnered access to the studio to the space to behave in a specific kind of way after you've spent money.

There's a higher sense of like, I don't know, Jillian, I use the word cohabitation and co-carrying for the space.

When the cost of the space isn't inherent to use, I like that.

You have to be more of a community member when you go into the library than you might have to be in a space where the first thing you do to access it is to spend money.

I think looking at I love you, you're saying cohabitation and co-carrying and, you know, looking at it as coming from a community aspect because what do you, you know, and you live in a community if you live in a neighborhood, you know, what do you always do for each other?

You make sure that, you know, the areas are cleaned up and picked up and the same type of thing would be in a library.

You know, if you pull out books, either you're returning them to the shelves or you're returning them to a desk where somebody else can, the librarians can reshield them.

You're making sure that there's no noise ordinance problems, same type of thing in the library where we're not talking silence, but, you know, you still, you try to keep some, you know, quieter level, you know, and that's screaming necessarily.

So I really, really love that definitely, using that definition in that way.

So obviously, if the library's a space where etiquette's important, it means that you might make a mistake.

You might violate the etiquette.

But we thought, Jillian, I wanted to give you a bit of a heads up in the case that this is something that worries you that you think, like, I couldn't possibly bring my kids to the library because they would annoy everybody around them.

Here's some common etiquette violations and how to avoid them.

And I think you might feel a little bit more relieved about spending your time in the space.

So there's things like noise disturbances, improper handling of books, ignoring the library rules.

There are all examples of etiquette violations, but they're not hard and fast rules as we've set a couple of times already.

We don't need to worry so much about being silent in the library.

Improper handling of books mean that is important.

We don't want to ruin a book, but if you take a book out of the library and you keep it a little bit longer, that could still be considered improper handling, but, you know, as long as you're returning it without marking in it, without highlighting in it, without making little notes in the margins, which is so fun to do sometimes annotating.

But as long as you're not doing that, you're fine.

You can keep the book a little bit longer, even though somebody might have to wait longer.

It's okay.

Nobody's going to come after you for it.

And if you're a fine free library, then you don't even have to pay the fines to keep it longer.

And then you want to respect your librarians.

That is probably one of the most important things that you, when it comes to maintaining good etiquette in a library that you want to keep in mind.

So librarians are there.

And for the most part, they care about that library a lot.

And they care about the patrons that are going to the library that are attending the library.

So when you go and you're disrespectful, let's say they give you an answer you don't like or your computer's are full and they can't get you on a computer for an hour or so.

And you're rude to them.

They're going to be they're going to have a problem and not want to help you back.

So just keep in mind, be respectful to them, just like you would to any other human being.

And then another thing that I wanted to mention was try not to take any phone calls when you're in the library.

Obviously there are emergencies and things come up.

But silence your phone, try not to take any calls.

And if you do need to take a call, step outside, step into the hallway.

These are all things that you want to avoid more so than worrying about being super quiet or silent in the library.

Yeah, I think by being mindful of our behavior and respecting library guidelines, we can all contribute to a positive and harmonious library environment.

I would also say that you have to loosen your expectations a little bit.

And one of the things is to let go of some of those traditional ways of violating etiquette, you know, being loud, returning your books late.

Like these are not sort of the ways that you can violate etiquette in 2024.

There are actually I think some more contemporary etiquette rules that modern users of the library should be aware of.

And I actually wouldn't even call these etiquette rules.

I would say like manage your expectations when you go to your public library.

And here's three things I think you should expect when you go to the library.

Number one, expect children.

Children and libraries go hand in hand.

They have since the beginning of time.

And so because children and libraries go hand in hand behaviors like vocalizations, excitement, disorganization, playing, laughing, crying, also come as children inhabit the library space.

You have to consider to how big your library is.

You just might not be able to avoid these sounds when you go to the library.

Number two, expect teenagers.

The third place has effectively become almost extinct, I think, except for the library.

This is a place where teenagers can inhabit and experience the world without being seen as a nuisance or father to other patrons.

As I said before, my community library branch is embedded within a community center.

And teens are 100% likely to be inhabiting the library from the time it opens to the time it closes.

And our library closes at 9 pm.

And oftentimes the last people left in the library are those teenagers.

Finally, and I don't know what you think about this, Jillian, but I think you should, if you are a modern library user, expect folks who are unhoused or unsheltered in your libraries.

This is something I know many people might disagree with, but I know our librarians are well acquainted with the many needs of the library and how it serves folks who are unhoused within the community.

Never mind that the space provides shelter and warmth or air conditioning.

It also provides internet access, books, media, skill sessions, and community for people who lack housing.

These may be people that are often invisible in our communities.

And so we might be surprised, or I've had times when my kids actually were surprised and not expecting to see unhoused members of the community in the library.

But I think when you anticipate these folks, you can be more welcoming and less apprehensive or nervous or scared because you're not often encountering these members of your community.

And you can be more appreciative and understanding of their needs for the use of the space, which means that your etiquette will come first and you'll be thinking about what they need in the space.

And we can think about everybody who needs a library, which includes us.

Like when we think about everybody, we can include ourselves in that definition.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.

And that is something that we see more, more and more these days, unfortunately.

And I think it's a great opportunity for kids to learn from and how to treat everyone as a human being versus the differences that we all might have.

Yeah.

And sometimes the library gives folks a sense of dignity.

And I think that that's a really, really important feature of the library in our communities.

I agree.

I love that very much.

All right, Aaron, recently on Instagram, you came across a post that was a letter to Dear Abby from a librarian.

You shared it with me and we both got pretty annoyed with it pretty quickly.

That's what actually inspired this whole episode.

Let's take some time and address some of those misconceptions at the librarian who wrote it shared.

So we will be linking because we're going to be talking about the post.

We will link to the image in our show notes so that you can go and view it yourself.

And of course, we always welcome your thoughts and opinions on it.

So read it, tag us on Instagram, let us know what you think.

Now I have to say, Jillian, I read this and I was reading the letter, which is from a librarian to say, I'm sick and tired of all these people coming in and behaving poorly in the library.

What are your thoughts on library etiquette?

And then the librarian goes on and on.

And I was like, I'm really curious what Abby, the advice person is going to say to this librarian.

And at the end, she says, I thought your letter was perfect.

So I'm just posting it.

I have no notes.

Basically, she was like, yes, librarian, slay queen.

Yeah.

And the one or last sentence is something like saying that people don't know any better.

They don't, people don't know any better.

So they, they need to see and read this.

And okay, that might be true, but at the same time, some of these are way off base.

So yeah.

Yeah.

So let's get into it.

Please keep your children with you at all times.

That's, I completely disagree with that.

I mean, I'm not saying let your kids run crazy like they're at a amusement park.

But if my daughter or son want to go off and two different directions, I have one who's reading children's books and one who's reading tween graphic novels, that's fine.

I don't think they need to be with me the whole time.

Or if one's on the computer, the children's computer and one is looking at books, I don't think they need to be with me the whole time.

And that it so that I'll read you the whole little section quickly.

Sure.

Please, please keep your children with you at all times.

A librarian is there to help you select materials, not babysitter cleanup after your children.

An unattended child can create hours of cleanup work in only a few minutes.

Teach your children not to run or shout in the library.

I completely disagree with every part of that statement.

I just think that like I said before, we have to welcome kids into the library.

Literally, I've never been in the library except like an academic university library that didn't have a children section.

If you're expecting that that section remains pristine at all times, like what is it there for?

Right.

One of the libraries we go to, which isn't our like usual neighborhood library, but another one has blocks that can be stacked.

They're like foam Lego blocks that can be stacked to make like castles and things.

And the kids favorite things is to build a wall, knock the wall down, the blocks go everywhere, and sometimes they clean them up and sometimes they don't.

You know, when I teach them and I tell them, but like the other fact of the matter is, is it's like we're using the space.

Like that's the priority.

And also, I love a library because I feel like for the most part, it's a really safe place for my kids to learn how to navigate space without me.

You know, it's easier to send my kid down a library aisle than to say send them down a grocery store aisle and allow them a sense of independence and to test limits in a place where I know they'll be safe.

Okay, here's the second one.

If your child throws a tantrum, screams or continually whines, not even tantrum, just a whiner.

You've got a whiner.

Take your whiner home.

Writers don't like books.

No.

He or she probably needs a nap, a snack, or simply or undivided attention.

While you can probably tune him out, other patrons cannot.

Another one that made me so angry because so it's unsympathetic to parents and so judgmental.

And yes, unsympathetic.

I there have been definitely times when I've been at our library where there's been a child there throwing a 10-temper tantrum because they don't want to leave or they want a book that they can't actually have or they're just whining because that's what kids do.

And I would never, and I mean, I am a parent, so maybe this is why, but I would never ever complain about something like that.

Never.

I would just expect it to happen.

Yeah, this is very much like children should be seen and not heard type of like mentality, although this post is from 2005, so it's like not even 20 years ago.

Okay, do you want to do the next one?

Sure.

Do not use your cell phone in the library.

No one wants to hear your scream at your spouse or discuss personal finances.

You never know who's listening, but you can be sure somebody is.

Now, I know you said this, and I don't know.

I'm sort of like, should you not use your phone in the library, really?

Well, I think I think I use my phone in the library.

I absolutely use good reads or...

Oh, no, I mean like talk on the phone in the library.

I mean, I personally wouldn't.

I have seen a lot of folks in the library using the municipal Wi-Fi to call long distance on WhatsApp.

Oh, okay.

So I do see a lot of families calling either internationally, having like FaceTime with their family members.

I'm assuming family members.

And maybe I am making some assumptions, but I do think that again, that internet access piece is one of the points that I think brings out some new behaviors in people is like if you're going to give away free internet, you also kind of have to expect some behaviors that come along with free internet.

If you're in a quiet zone having a loud conversation, that's disrespectful.

My library doesn't have a quiet zone because it's actually like architecturally, it's either all or nothing kind of thing.

Yeah, so the one we go to is the same.

I do know a leather library that allows you to book a quiet room, which is like basically you in a glass room that has like sound proofing, but you have to like pre-plan that space where the space has to be available.

And then otherwise the rest of the ambient noise at the library.

Now I think this point here is like scream at your spouse or discuss personal finances, but that's not library etiquette.

That's just like regular etiquette.

I've been on a number of train conversations.

I've heard people talk about fire.

They're going to fire someone tomorrow on the phone and they're like going through the whole strategy of how they're going to fire an employee.

And it's just like this isn't the place for that.

Yeah, I can I absolutely agree with that.

Okay, the next one.

Do not bring food or drink to the library.

A spilled drink can ruin books in an instant.

Even if the book dries out, it will develop mold, which spreads to other books.

I mean, I don't know.

I like have to check with a librarian to actually know like what's the what's the real call on food?

I think ours says no outside food or drink.

But I know that there have been times when I've used the library to work when our Wi-Fi was down or something.

And I definitely brought water in and I snuck snacks in and just ate them at the table.

So it's probably one of those things as long as it's not seen and you don't spill your water.

Yeah, you're probably okay to do it.

Now, I'm going to say something a little irreverent.

Are the books in the community library that precious?

Probably not.

So here's the thing.

I I went to a huge university that has beautiful libraries like I've I feel very privileged to actually have spent some time in some of the architecturally like breathtaking libraries.

And there were times when I would study with my friends and we'd be having a snack and the librarian would come around and say like you really can't eat in here.

It attracts pests and the pests get into the books and some of the books are very rare and valuable.

And in my mind academically, I was like, all right, fine, like I get it.

Like you've got some precious books in your academic, special university library books, whatever.

But I'm just like, you know, a James Patterson got moldy.

Are we going to be?

No, we're definitely not.

You know, like I'm just saying, I'm just saying.

I love the choice.

That was purposeful.

You know, I have no love loss for James Patterson.

Okay.

All right, you want to take the next one, Jillian?

Yeah, okay.

I feel like we're full snark now.

We're like return materials on time.

Most libraries have limited budgets and limited staff to serve a large population.

Don't waste our resources by failing to return materials when do.

Don't claim you have returned a book when it's actually in your bedroom, child's room, gym locker, office or the back seat of your car.

Librarians get no pleasure from collecting fines or overdue materials.

Calling to remind you that things are overdue, waste limited staff time.

It also waste time and money to replace loss books, order the replacement if there's money in the budget and process it to be put back in circulation.

Okay, I have two thoughts about this.

The first.

The first is that I think some of her complaint is valid.

It's like, if you don't have it, you don't have it.

Just like, own up to whatever is going on.

It doesn't benefit you or me for you to just like have a song and dance about it.

I think that going fine free and the advent of technology has just like probably eliminated this workflow entirely for librarians.

I'm not getting a phone call when my books are late.

I'll tell you that much.

I do however get a lot of delightful automated emails that I'm certain are not incumbent on a human knowing what to do or knowing what I have checked out or not checked out.

But the second part of that is like replacing books, ordering the book replacement, processing and putting it back in circulation.

That's like part of the library job description, isn't it?

Right.

And there are usually people who are hired to do that specific job.

So yeah, I agree.

I would be really curious to know if this librarian, what this librarian feels like about going fine free.

Like, I'm really curious if this person was that even controversial for some libraries?

Oh, if you go fine free, people never return their books.

I think that that is probably why it's taken so long for a lot of libraries to go that route because ours has only been this way for maybe a year and a half about maybe two years.

And I think it just took so long because people are afraid that people aren't going to return their books anymore.

The other point I wanted to make was that I had read somewhere and I don't remember where, but that the libraries count on people having the books out of the library because no library has enough shelf space to hold every single book that they have in circulation.

No, that's true.

A part of the like the civic engineering or the like process engineering of libraries is incumbent on a certain percentage of the collection being checked out.

That right there.

I'm not that that means you should always keep your books out later.

But if you do, you're certainly not harming the library by doing so.

You're actually helping, you're actually a good person.

I think you can give yourself a pat on the back.

Okay, here's another one.

We, we the librarians, we are happy to help with your reference questions.

But please remember, we're not magicians.

If you have a deadline plan ahead and while we can perform miracles, they take a little time to accomplish.

And there are other patrons to be served that accent.

Oh, I think this is just like about general courtesy to librarians, what you talked about is I think the work of a librarian aside from checking out my books, checking my books back in shelving books and maybe delivering children's programming.

The work of a librarian is so invisible.

Like it's really hard to probably understand visibly what they're doing as librarians and what they're juggling and managing and supporting people with.

And I think that this often sort of can be like, well, they were just in the back office.

And I need them.

So I need them to just like, you know, snap my fingers and like be ready.

And I think sometimes there's this interesting dynamic between a librarian and a patron where the librarian is in a position of power.

And the patron needs the librarian for something.

And that that sometimes can put people in a funny place where they're behaving because they sense that they've already kind of not got enough power.

But they need to act in a way that influences the librarian to see them as worthy of help.

And I think this kind of thing is like just so interesting where it's like plan ahead, be the ideal person worthy of our help.

And then we'll be there to help you.

And I just think that there's a lot of like grace missing from the statement.

Although I think it probably comes from a place where this person is just like, exasperated by one too many people sort of mistreating them when they weren't able to come up with the reference answer that the person was looking for.

Yeah.

I feel like maybe this person is nearing retirement age when they wrote this.

I'm curious.

They're they're they're ready to like kick it.

Yeah.

All right.

The next one.

If you want to view pornography by a home computer while we support free speech, our facility needs to be child friendly.

No one, not children, other patrons or staff wants to see your private life.

I have no beef with that one.

We'll sign off on this one.

That's fine.

However, I do also think that like the library needs to be child friendly.

But the first thing you said was keep these whiny babies out of here.

This is true.

You know, so which is it child friendly?

Or yeah, no.

But I think I mean, I think that I would imagine librarians, unfortunately, are course correcting that more often than I would ever want to know.

Okay.

The next one.

Talk to us in complete sentences.

We are not mind readers.

When you silently thrust a library card at us, we don't know what you want unless you tell us.

Now, the compassionate side of me was like, why would somebody do that?

But I just think like where I live, there's at least 100 languages spoken in the city where I live.

And a ton of people who use the library, English is not their first language.

And so I'm just trying to imagine like the body language of being like, here's my library card.

I guess I want to check out these books or like, I mean, like, I mean, if you walk up to the counter with a stack of books and you hand them your library card, what do you, what do you think?

I mean, I personally usually say hello and how are you doing and all that.

But if somebody doesn't, what do you think that they want?

You know, they're not just there to hang out.

I do love the self-check out at the library though.

Yes, me too.

I always find it weird when somebody's actually going to the counter with their books.

I'm like, people still do that.

I know.

Yeah, me too.

Me too.

Okay.

And here's the last one.

Please remember, this is a library, not an office service.

We are happy to help you find resources, but don't ask us to do your homework, write your paper, add your letter or do your taxes.

And by the way, a simple thank you makes our day.

I know this letter is too long to print, Debbie, but thank you for letting me get this all off my chest.

I feel better.

She feels better.

And it is signed Mary and the librarian in Kansas.

So we do know that it's a Marian.

If you're listening, Marian.

Enjoy your retirement.

I think actually she's wrong.

There are a lot of library services that will help you do your taxes.

They will help you edit your letter, write your resume.

They will help you do your homework.

Like literally.

Yes, yes.

They want you to spend time solving these kinds of problems in the library.

Maybe things are different in Kansas.

Maybe they don't have that there.

You know what?

That would have been interesting to see like what's the history of like the Kansas public library, state funded, etc, etc.

Well, I don't know now.

I feel kind of bad for Mary and the librarian.

I mean, I don't think so because the only one that we maybe could say would be affected by state funding would be this last one.

The rest of them are pretty much all opinion and are unnecessary to have as a librarian in my opinion.

Now we will link to this, but I love to some of the comments, Jillian, lots of librarians weighing in on this post and being like what a cranky librarian standards have changed.

Like most most libraries, this one person says most librarians have an outside area with a cafe to eat and drink.

A lot of librarians are now built with playgrounds for children.

Someone is like, as a library staff, I can understand these sentiments.

Good manners in public space comes a long way.

But blah, blah, blah.

I think too like you also think about it seems like a lot of people have been like yelled at or like mistreated librarians.

You know, and this is like perhaps unfortunately about somebody kind of like seeking validation for like what was probably a terrible experience.

I'm sure.

I've never witnessed anybody yell at a librarian.

I haven't either.

I think in college, I might have there might have been people that would get kind of testy with the librarians, but I have a feeling that was more to do with lack of time.

People being people needing something, not able to find it in the librarian, not able to help them.

And so that they'd get a little testy, but I don't I don't remember them ever, you know, straight out yelling.

All right, Jillian, why don't we segue to our own personal library stories?

Okay.

So I remember, and this goes back to talking about talking about what we were saying before about the librarian needing to be quiet and silent.

I have lots and lots of memories of the library going to arts and crafts hour story hours, visiting the animals, but along the lines of it being quiet, when we would go to the children's room, it would be pretty silent.

You know, even there, you didn't really run around.

There were rules.

People expected you to be quiet, you know, whisper talk when you're talking to the animals, but then you would go upstairs because in my hometown library, it's upstairs and downstairs.

You would go upstairs to the adult library and it would be silent, not a sound.

And if people were in there, they were whispering at the softest softest volume because they did not allow noise and there would be librarians and they're going, shh, shh, which you do I don't see that anymore.

I take my kids to the library a lot and they're loud.

Well, not loud, but they're making noise and nobody shushes us.

So that's the one thing I remember is how quiet that library was when you would go especially into the adult section.

What about you, Aaron?

I have the same memory and I actually remember when I was studying for exams in my last year of high school, I am the oldest of five.

I lived in a big house and my dad said, well, if you want, I'll just drive it to the library.

You can get a lot of quiet time studying for your exams.

I might have even been in maybe my first year of nursing school, also studying for exams, maybe on Christmas break or something, or Thanksgiving.

I can't remember, but I remember certainly in my last year of high school and maybe my first year of nursing school going to the public library in Brantford, my hometown and going to the adult section for what felt like maybe the first time, although it probably wasn't, but it felt like certainly beyond searching a book, getting the book, leaving the library to spend time.

I spent like eight hours there.

My dad would be like, okay, I'll come and get you up for 30 or whatever and he'd come and pick me up or maybe Nick would come and pick me up.

We were dating at that time.

I just remember the same thing like this total hush within the space.

Even now I have to admit that does seem very appealing, even though I'm saying, I think we have to kind of let go of our ideas of the library as being soundless.

But yeah, I have that memory being like a young adult, early adult, and feeling like I'd kind of graduated into the adult spaces from spending years and years and years and years and years in the children's section and then feeling like as I was sort of transitioning from needing the library for books and entertainment to needing the library for a space that was conducive to my own higher learning.

I really like, I can vividly even remember like the table where I sat those few times and just like the sense of quiet and calm and space and like I think I probably brought like headphones or something and feeling like very studious, feeling very studious in that space.

I love that memory.

Yeah, thanks.

So, you know, from discovering hidden gems on library shelves to finding solace in the quiet corners of the library, we love sharing these personal library stories.

It really continues to highlight the profound impact of these spaces in our lives.

And as you know, Jillian and I are, you know, fiercely passionate about the public library.

And we love bringing these episodes to the show.

They're fun too because you get to, I mean, I've said it a million times on these episodes.

I'd love to reminisce.

So anytime we talk about libraries, even if we don't necessarily talk about it on air, it leads me to start thinking and like remembering and reminiscing about what it was like as a kid to go to the library, which is always fun.

It's time for hot takes and our current thoughts on book culture.

A hot take is an opinion usually formed off the cuff and with little research, sometimes provocative.

Today's topic or question is do you pay attention to the best seller listing on the cover of books?

Erin, what are your thoughts?

No, never, not one time.

Actually, is that true?

That was my hot take was like, no, I don't care.

I know what I want to read.

And if it was the hot, if it was the best seller, I'm not worried about it.

If it was or wasn't, but I've ever been to like a used bookstore or like a book, a used book fair or a free little library, that's where like, oh, best seller blah blah blah, you're kind of like, all right, you feel like you're going to get something that was had mass appeal.

And so you worry less about, is this going to be good for me?

And you think more like, well, the mass public enjoyed this book.

So I probably, I belong to the mass public.

I probably like this book too.

If I do see national best seller across a book in a free little library, I'm probably more likely to take it unless it's James Patterson.

And then I will leave it.

Oh, man.

James Patterson will no longer be thinking of sponsoring our podcast.

Oh, dear.

So I am pretty much the same.

I do not choose a book, whether it says best seller or any of that.

The only time I ever pay attention to anything on the book cover is when it's one awards.

And sometimes that will lead me, which I know is not exactly what we were asking, but it'll lead me to kind of look at it and be like, okay, yeah, I might give this a try.

If it's one, this award, whatever the award is, you know, I might give it a try.

But publishers, they're doing that, right?

They're giving you these little, these little baits or these little hooks.

They're like, absolutely.

They're like, hey, reader, here's a bit of bait.

Here's another bit of bait.

Here's a pretty cover.

Here's something else.

Here's a blurb from James Patterson.

Maybe James Patterson love this book.

Here you go.

Here reader.

Aaron won't be reading that one if it's got James Patterson on the back.

Oh, no way.

But lots of other people would.

They'd be like, oh, Jamie, Jamie, love this one.

So we'll check it out.

I don't think I ever realized how much you disliked James Patterson.

I don't think I have a strong a strong dislike for good old JP.

Yeah.

But do you know why that is?

I don't.

I complained about this on an old episode of medium lady talks before we had medium lady reads.

James Patterson was quoted in the Guardian complaining about, oh, he's so dumb.

Complaining about discrimination of white male authors in the publishing space.

Oh, I remember that now.

Yes.

And James Patterson is like probably taking up more library shelves than any other author alive today in your libraries, just so you know, the guy is not hurt for readers or cash.

And he could have used his platform for anything.

Plus he's a bad writer.

So there you heard it here first, folks.

I'm not too worried that like the James Patterson readership and our listenership.

No, no, neither am I actually I'm sorry.

I don't want to yuck your yum.

If you love James Patterson, that's fine.

I just don't you're not going to hear him or you don't.

And we're not going to if you do listen to or rather read him, we're not going to judge you when there's no no problem.

You keep reading what you want to read.

This is just our thoughts.

Well, I don't even I don't personally don't have a problem with James Patterson.

I don't read him, but I don't have a problem with him.

Hot takes also on James Patterson.

All right, all right.

Let's get off this train.

Let's talk about what's on our holds list of the library, Jillian.

What is on your holds list?

So I have nothing on my holds list waiting for me.

I just picked him up yesterday.

So that's why I got project Hail Mary.

Yay.

Yes, because of your recommendation.

I got the waters and one more that I can't remember.

Let me see if I quickly look at oh against the Loveless world.

I got out.

I think that was a your recommendation too.

I really love that book.

That's very emotional.

That book is very emotional.

I could have gotten it as an ebook, but I personally really like the physical books.

The only physical book that my library has it in is large print editions.

So.

Well, that's okay.

We know everybody will be able to look at it over my shoulder and read it with me.

Yeah, it's not very spicy.

So you're okay.

The two that I'm waiting for.

One is Good Material by Dolly Alderton, which I know I think is one of the books that you have waiting for you at home.

And then I have Lunar New Year Love Story, which is a graphic novel.

That one.

I don't know when that comes out because it's been I feel like I've been waiting for it forever.

Those graphic novels I feel like sometimes are harder because you don't get like a book like Dolly Alderton.

They might buy 20 copies and infuse them into the system.

That's a good point.

The graphic novels I think are more expensive and they're also they just circulate slower.

I feel like.

Well, the thing is is it's not even showing in circulation yet.

That's why.

Oh, so they maybe they don't have it yet.

Yeah.

That's why I'm just looking right now to see when the published data is January 9th.

Huh.

Interesting.

Well, I'm not going to worry about it.

It's sitting there waiting for me so they know about it.

All right, Aaron.

What do you have waiting on hold for you?

Well, I actually almost have nothing waiting on hold for me because I have an identity crisis pile of books at home right now.

I really, as I said, when we opened the show, I did not manage my holds list very well.

And I came back from my trip to Disney World and pretty much every other day.

Something really great came in.

Or it came in before I left for Disney, which means that I really have too many books in my home right now.

And I have a bit of existential dread that I really want to read all these books.

But I should probably cut my checked out books in half and return half of them, knowing that I can't read them all.

And I think I talked about this in the last episode.

I was sort of like, so fun and so abundant.

And right now, I'm just like, I have to get rid of some of my favorites.

So I have right now, this could be us by Kennedy Ryan.

I have Canadian boyfriend by Jenny Bayless.

I have Dolly Alderton's book, Good Material.

I also got a study in drowning by Ava Reed.

I have a really good personal development book out called The Mountain Is You.

And that's just like a handful off the top of my head.

Really great books that I'm just, I need to give them back.

I just need to make some calls and decisions and give them back.

I'm not going to have three days to just consume only books.

But this is about my holds list.

Not about my identity crisis.

So I really have nothing on hold.

The only book I had on hold was Chieng Gang All Stars by Nana Kwame Adigi Brenna.

And I've suspended it because my life is chaos right now.

I also have on hold Funny Story.

Hot Take Everybody.

Funny Story is available for holding your libraries.

Go put it on hold.

It comes out at the end of April.

I also have on hold.

This summer will be different by Carly Fortune.

Hot Take Everybody.

This summer will be different.

It's probably in your library catalog that comes out at the beginning of May.

So really nothing on hold.

And I feel like I need to put myself on hold time out until I can get my act together.

So I just look to see when for Funny Story to see if I could put it on hold and I can.

Yeah.

There are 81 people already on hold for it.

No, I think mine was the similar.

Mine was similar.

I like I won't see that book until September.

I don't think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

My the Carly Fortune book I actually bought she released a very fun pretty like Rose Gold fancy cover.

Oh nice.

And I ordered that fancy one.

So I'll get the pre sale of it whenever it releases.

I'm not sure when but that'll be great.

I think it's May 9th or something like that.

That'll be fun.

That'll be a fun book mail.

Yeah.

I'm only like 30 if there's something in line for that.

So that'll be fun.

That'll be those will be some maybe it'll be Labor Day reads.

We got to have Murdery Spring.

Oh yeah.

Murderer day.

I need to put some Murdery ones on hold.

I don't have any.

I have because I have so many books out already.

I didn't put anything new on hold because I also have those existential crises where I have too many books and just like I have to take them all in return home and start all over.

Sometimes I feel that way but because I have them in my hot little hands now.

You have to pry them out of my claws.

I I completely can understand that.

All right.

That wraps up episode 17 of Medium Lady reads.

Medium Lady reads is a spin-off of the Medium Lady Talks podcast and Instagram community.

You can find me Jillian at Jillian Finding Happy and you can find Aaron at Medium.lady for more of our current reads and other shenanigans.

And of course you can follow the podcast itself on Instagram at Medium Lady reads.

If you like this episode please share it with another bookish friend or post on Instagram and be sure to tag us.

We would be tickled pink to hear from you.

Thanks for listening.

I'm your host Aaron.

And I'm your other host Jillian.

Until next time we hope that your hold's arrived quickly.

And your next book finds you right where you need it most.

We'll talk to you soon.

Bye.

See you later.

I sort of thought like no I don't want my hold's to come quickly.

We need to change our change our outro.

[Laughs]