Kosher Wine Hashgacha adventures with Rabbi Raphael Wolff

How are Europe's finest non-kosher wineries transformed into kosher wine producers? Join us for an exclusive conversation with Rabbi Raphael Wolff of the Top K Hashgacha, as he unravels the meticulous process behind kosher wine production. From koshering vats and barrels to handling every precious drop of wine, Rabbi Wolf sheds light on the detailed procedures and strict criteria that define Kosher wine. Dive deep into the rich history of his family's work in kosher certification across France, Italy, Israel, and South Africa, and hear about Rabbi Wolff's own professional journey.

We tackle the modern challenges of koshering winemaking facilities, especially with today's high water costs. Discover innovative solutions like steam usage and water reuse, and learn about the indispensable role of a mashgiach in maintaining kosher standards. Rabbi Wolff also shares the secrets of maintaining professional relationships and adhering to rigorous protocols in prestigious regions like Bordeaux, ensuring the quality and reputation of kosher wines.

Our discussion takes a fascinating turn as we explore unique collaborations with wineries in Italy and France, including the high-quality wines from Pescaya and Saint-Emilion. Personal anecdotes about harvest times coinciding with Jewish holidays and innovative winemaking practices add depth to our conversation. Don't miss this captivating episode of The Kosher Terroir!

For more information:
Rabbi Raphael Wolff
WebSite: https://top-k.net/
Phone: +33 4 86 68 85 75
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Transcript

Solomon Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. This week's episode of The Kosher Terroir is a conversation with Rabbi Raphael Wolff of the Top- K Hashkacha, a kosher certification organization founded in 1997 by his father, Rabbi Eliezer Wolff, based in France, Amsterdam and Israel.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 0:47

Rabbi Raphael Wolff shares with us the tasks involved in producing kosher wines in one of Europe's highly acclaimed non-kosher wineries, from all the preliminary koshering of vats and barrels to the processing of each and every drop of wine. We also discuss topics like who is permitted to handle the wine, what a Mavushel wine actually means and some of the stories along the way from France and Italy. If you're driving your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're home relaxing, please select a delicious kosher wine. Sit back and enjoy this very informative episode. Raphael, Wolff, to The Kosher Terroir podcast. Thank you for joining me, and especially joining me in Yerushalayim.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 1:37

Hello, Simon. Thank you for having me, and that's a great pleasure.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:42

Pleasure. So what we're going to speak about today is hashkachot unwind. Tell me a little bit about your background You're a Rav, but you have a hashkachah and tell me a little bit about the origin of it. And just so that we have a clear picture of what you do.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 2:05

So we are a French family. I grew up in France when in France South France, nice, toulouse and Marseille we moved a lot, but most of the time was Marseille and my father is a rove running an ahead. It's his own private as go ahead. Named top K and for many years in the wine, wine making, wine business, and so giving us a half for French wines, but also in all other different areas when you said in other places besides France.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 2:46

Do you give A Hasgacha to anyone here in Israel at all?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 2:48

So we got picked by two small wineries to give them Hashgaha in Israeli wines for export purposes. They have clients who want a known Ashgaha in Europe, so they rich us. But we just got in Nariti soil and it's a place with a lot of different Hashgahot and so there is less room than in other countries and we prefer to focus on places when we have advantage, such as local mashgikhim and people who speak French in France, Italian in Italy, and that helps us to do a professional and good work in the wineries.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 3:36

I know you also cover South Africa in that you provide the hashgacha for Essa.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 3:46

Yeah, we have an interesting story how we got to give them hashgacha, because they are working with the local heresher, the Bet Din of Cape Town and the Bet Din of South Africa, and they have also the Orthodox Union for exporting to the US market and they wanted to have what it's called in the slang is hi, michelle, you know, to get to some market that are looking for a city share or something like that.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 4:17

So they bring out the, bringing an American very known Hatcherher, hasidic Hesher, and they visit all the plants and they say, okay, everything is looking perfect, but we cannot give hashgacha here. Why? The reason was because in this place they have women working as mashgachot. Wow, okay.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 4:43

So they say it's not according to our standard. Woman working as much hot, wow, okay. So they say it's not according to our standard. And so, josh and you was thinking, we, which has the heart that is considered to be, we're not a high Michelle, but whatever the ritual yeah we, we.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 5:03

So we got contact by them and they know that my father is using mashgichot in the restaurant in Amsterdam. So they said if he's accepting it in the restaurant in Amsterdam, he should accept it also in the wineries in South Africa. And so my father went there, he visited the winery, everything was perfect, and so he could give them hashgacha for two years now.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 5:32

So you went to yeshiva. Where did you go to yeshiva?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 5:35

So I learned in Marseille, then I went to yeshiva Ktana in Paris and I came to Eretz Yisroel to learn in yeshiva Gdola. I learned in Kol Torah in Beit Vagan it's a known yeshiva. My father learned there already under Shomazam and Hoiabach was the reshivan there, and then I moved to Lakewood for one year or so before coming back to Eretz Yisrael. I got married and I learned in the koiler here in Eretz Yisrael.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 6:04

All right. So when you started, your father gives hashkachot, but it's not necessarily only wine, it's all sorts of hashkachot.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 6:13

That's true, and actually my main business today it's the factories hashkachot. We have someone for now 25 years who is in charge of all the staff working in the wineries, is a very professional man, knows wine much better than me and is in charge of all the process of the winemaking. Of course I got involved in it, but yes, I'm working much more on the side of the factories that the wines okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 6:50

So when did you start with wine? When did you start working on wine? Okay?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 6:54

that's a good question actually. Just to come back to the your last question, yeah, I, I was in bordeaux last week, yeah, and but it wasn't for wine, it was for for oil. So, you, you, you see, we can go to Bordeaux many times in a year, but sometimes it's for uh, oil, oil, and which? What type of oil? Algae oil? Okay, yeah and uh, but also for wine, of course, in Bordeaux, and Kosher wines.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 7:23

Okay, so when did you start with wine?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 7:26

itself. My first job when I was young was in the wine, because you know, in France you have many different areas, many places you do Kosher wines and it's seasonal work because you have one or two guys working all the year around to make all the how it's called the maintenance of the wines, yeah all the different steps for the wine and but.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 7:55

But when it's the harvest you need many, many people to do the job, so they have a lot of young Bochum coming in the wineries for the harvest. So that was one of my first student jobs. I was probably 16. And for a few years every harvest we got in the wine.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 8:21

So when you were making wine in those harvests, you were making wine in special kosher runs and non-kosher wineries. Right, yeah, that's correct, okay. So let's talk a little bit about the steps, because I know it's a huge job and people I don't think understand, they just think you know a rabbi comes, he blesses the wine, wine, thank you very much. And and everything is done. So let's talk a little bit about all the different steps that are involved. Is there anything involved from the, from the steps of picking grapes or selecting the grapes or what have you? Yeah, it can be.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 8:57

So just before that, I want to say you you may, you made a real point, uh that in the wine it's very different than other uh products that youacha because you have products that you can do annual kosher certification with few audits and that's it. It's not complicated. Wine needs to be done only by Jews and it includes a lot of costs costs. So always when I got a new client, the winery want to do kosher wines, I advise them, before coming and doing the kosher wine, find a good client, someone that you can rely on, that you will have sales. So we will not have any costs that are not covered because wine is complicated to be done on a kosher way.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 9:42

So I asked you is there a difference between varietals with regard to hashkacha? Yeah, Is there.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 9:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, regarding cost, if you're speaking about cost, you can have a simple white wine that will be done in a few days. You don't have so much work on it. So it's the harvest, all the work of separating all the the grapes from the juice, and then it's a few days of, you know, testing, fermentation, testing. So the mashgih have to come for a few days. There is a cost, but it's not a huge cost. When you're doing a Santa million in Bordeaux and you have some time, need you need some time for five mashgikhim in the same place to do the different jobs, and it can be 50, 60 days of work. So you adding that to the price of the wine and of course, there is a huge difference on the cost between a sophisticated red wine and a simple white wine.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 10:50

Tell me the steps through it, though. In selecting the actual grapes themselves now, do you have to have a mashkiach who goes through picking the grapes through manually?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 11:01

picking the grapes through. So if it's manual picking and you have just you're picking the grapes, you don't need a mashgir. The problem comes when you have machine picking and then you can have some kind of double, you know, separating the grapes from the because the grapes are very, very soft, they're already at the end of the way and all the wine, the wine.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 11:33

It's to know when to pick the grapes. So. So you got a lot of juice when you're picking the grapes already and if you're separating in the machine already the grapes and the juice, so you have ham shakha and that's a problem for us. So we must make sure that there is no separation of the grapes and the juice. We have no problem if it's juice coming by himself from the grapes, but we may. We need to make sure that there is no uh, on purpose separation of the juice from the grapes okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 12:07

So anytime you're in a situation where it's squeezing the grapes in some way and creating juice on purpose to you know, like crushing part of the crushing jobs and what have you, you need to make sure that that's handled by a muskier.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 12:21

Yeah, so we spoke now about the picking of the grapes. That's in the field. Of course, when the grapes arrive to the winery and we start separating the reasons from the can separate the woods of the grapes to have all the reasons by themselves. So that already has to be done only by a mashkiach. When the grapes arrive to the winery, everyone knows we're not touching nothing, we're not starting any machine. Every different step is done only by a mashkiach who is selected by the ashgacha to do the job.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 13:07

So that's crushing. Then you have to put it into fermentation vats, yep. So all of the transfer of the wines into the fermentation vats all has to happen by mashkiach.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 13:19

Yeah, and we have also a job that we didn't spoke about, that is made before the picking of the grapes. It's the kosherization, of course, because we're speaking in a place that is not kosher all the year round and Hazal made a very complicated rule about koshering the vats of wine. You know that we need to have three times milui veirui wine. You know that we need to have three times me, louis V, we slow shop and me. That mean we need to fill the vats with water. Yeah, for three times 24 hours. Boiling water or regular water, regular water, we we can do boiling water, but that's the dia, that it's the best way to causeize vats of wine, the vats where the wine stays. If it's just some kind of pump that can be cauterized, that just needs to be clean because it's used with wine that is not hot, so there is no problem of cross-contamination. If it's clean, it's okay. But places where you put wine to stay in and ferment.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 14:32

And ferment, or if it's only for aging every different barrels or places where you put wine and the wine is staying there. So there is a discussion what is the definition of staying if it's to stay more than three days? But when the definition is a place to make the wine staying in, you need a cauterization, but three, you have to fill it and empty it three times with water. So you know, today water have a huge cost and of course people are thinking more and more how to save water and not to use water. So that creates sometimes complication with koshering the places.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 15:22

So there is bedia bad. We can do with steam, with hot water, we can do kosherization. But the proper way is miluj ve'ru gimel pamim and we can do. Also, the question that we got asked is can we reuse the water from the first barrel to the second one? Because we need, let's say, six different vats to kosherize. So they will ask we will fill three, then we will move the water to the three others and we will fill so we can save water. So actually, harav L'Yashiv said that if you're adding some homer pogem, something that is doing the water not drinkable, you can reuse the water for kosherizing the different other vats, so that can be done. So what sort of thing do you put into it? Any product, even soap.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 16:16

Yeah, okay.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 16:17

Yeah, but you have to be a strong one that can make the water not drinkable. Okay, got it.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 16:27

Okay, all right, anything with the vineyard, because you know, here in Israel we make sure of making sure that people aren't growing other things in the vineyard, kilayim and what have you. Is that an issue in a place like France?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 16:47

It can be an issue if it's in a Jewish winery. Okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 16:51

When it gets to the point where you're filtering it after the fermentation. You're filtering the wines and what have you? That's also something that has to be totally handled by a mashkiach. Yeah, you know, you mentioned to me before that it's based on moving. Yeah, what Tell?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 17:11

me that again Okay. So everything that made the wine moving from one place to another is considered something that can make the wine non-kosher. Okay If it's done by someone who's not Not approved Not approved by the hargaha. So we need to make sure that and that's the rule that we have in all the wineries that only the rabbi touch anything, so that way we can get out of any troubles.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 17:47

So, as an example, if you connect pipes between a vat and barrels and what have you? Because the wine's moving, it doesn't make a difference whether somebody's touching the wine or not touching the wine. If you're moving the wine within a winery, that's enough to have an issue.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 18:09

Yeah, we have a rabbi doing all the different. He's putting the pipes and he's pressing the button or he's opening the valves. Everything is done by the mashagir.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 18:21

So if I go, okay, so if I want to taste wine from the vats, they have a spigot where you can turn it on and get wine out to taste it. That's something that a Rav has to do because you're moving wine, yeah so the spigot is closed by chotam beto, chotam closed by.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 18:41

When you go to wineries non-kosher wineries and you want to see the kosher vats, you will see that everything is closed. By that means we have double signs on the on every, every opening of the vats. So that means on the top, on the bottom, but also on this special vats where you can extract wine, so you put like hashgacha tape over all of them.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 19:10

Yeah, we can put a tape, hashgacha tape, but we need chotam beto chotam. That means we have the mashgiach signing on the tape with letters so we can know if someone touched the tape, that, if it's open, so we can recognize that it was not re-taped in the same way that it used to be.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 19:32

Transferring the wine into the barrels we talked about. We talked about preparing the barrels, Sampling the barrels. When the winemaker is trying to get samples from the barrels in order to decide what they want to do, whether they want to grade the different barrels or what have you. That's something where they make a request to the mashkiach and the mashkiach goes and takes the samples from each of the barrels, exactly exactly.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 20:03

So there is, of course, the mashkiach klalir that have huge knowledge in winemaking and knows what you have to do. But we also have so much Gihim that working in the wineries it's a summer job, you know they don't know exactly what to do. So of course, everything is under the supervision of the onolog of the winemakers in the winery, and one of the important rules that we apply on the mashgirim that we say how important it is to to to follow everything that the winemakers are saying, because for them is very important to have the best results on the wines. And of course they are doing some work on themselves to allow us only to touch the wine and not touching anything. And so of course it's important for us to have on the other side professional workers that know how to follow all the instructions and to do the job properly. And that's one of the keys to succeed in the wine making, of the kosher wine making, because you know, people in Bordeaux speak to each other and they say, oh, this rabbi Tims was terrible last year. You know, they didn't do the job correctly, so that's very bad for kosher wines.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 21:28

Didn't do the job correctly, so that's very bad for, uh, kosher wines and of course we need, we, we must do the job properly and professionally. That's one of the keys for the you you can. You know better than me. You see how the kosher wines grows through the years and probably 20 years ago we didn't have such a good wines in the kosher markets. That's one of the reasons because people was afraid. You know, you saying to someone who is doing his own wine with passion do not touch the wine, do not do nothing. Only the rabbi would do the job. And they're afraid. And if they see that you do the job well, properly, with professionalism, on the other places, so they got interested because there is a market, of course they can do business, but you need to be very professional.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 22:14

Yeah, they need to make sure that they can depend on what you're doing Exactly. You don't take their commands lightly, because they're the ones who are in charge of the wine in the end. Okay, as far as maintaining barrels. So when they're maintaining barrels and you know there's a few things that go on with maintaining barrels In some instances they actually turn the barrels, in some instances they actually top them. They have to top the barrels over time. So what happens? There are mashkihim who stay in the winery then all the year.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 22:55

Okay, so of course the mashkih is difficult for mashkih to stay in the wineries all the year around. Yeah, Actually, in the cheese factory we had that we had a mashkih working in cheese for also the non-kosher cheese. He was an employee of the farmer and he did the cheese, also the non-kosher one, and when we had the run of kosher cheese he did the kosher one. So that can happen also in a winery. We have also in italy a winery that it's, uh, run by a Shomer, shabbat, jewish, very serious guy, and so he can do the small job during all the year round. He can do by himself. So that's going to happen that we have someone available in the winery all the time, but usually it's someone who lives close by and we have Mashgikhim in Bordeaux, we have mashgikhim nearby in France, so they can come. They know in this date you need to come to make some samples, in the other date you need to come to do fermentation. Every time they have a schedule. It's not a fixed schedule because you know, in wine everything depends on the weather, all the different step of fermentation and how the wine is going. But they know that they can be called at any time to do whatever job they need to do. There is something that they can be called at any time to do, whatever job they need to do. There is something that I can add, please.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 24:32

Okay, in the process of kosher wine, we need to make sure that we spoke about professionalism and how important it is for the winemakers. There is a notion in halakha that the winemaker is bahul on his wine. He wants to make sure that his wine is doing correctly, and that's the reason why we cannot be. I will say in Hebrew metair yayno shelakum. We cannot make kosher, a wine, on a non-kosher winery.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 25:10

You ask if we're doing kosher wine in a non-kosher winery. I said yes, because that's what we are doing. Yes, but go ahead. I'm sorry. No, no, it's not, but that's not allowed by the halakha. You cannot go and do kosher wine in a non-kosher winery. So how we handle that? Go and do kosher wine in a non-kosher winery. So how we handle that, and so the the way to do to do it properly is that you need to buy the wine before that you're doing it, not all the wine, but part of it. You need to have a down payment for the wine, so the wine is not called anymore a wine that is made on a non-kosher plant because you have part of it. So that's the solution that we have. We make a contract between the winemakers and the client, so he's paying already a down payment for the part of the wine and that way we can save the problem. The issue of making a kosher wine in a non-kosher place I have an interesting story about it.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 26:10

That's very interesting. I don't think anybody. I mean there are very few people who know about that. Okay, okay, go ahead.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 26:16

So the story was like that we had one year kosher wine, non-kosher wine. They signed the contract, the client paid down payment for a part of the wine and then at the end of the year it was a very bad year for the winemakers in france. So the wine. But the wine was good, so let's say, triple the prices of the wine. So the the winemaker had a client who said I will pay for your wine whatever you want, and he didn't have any more wine, non-kosher conventional wines. So he said what did? He say, okay, I will give you the Kosher wine. He went, he desilled all the Kosher wine and he sold it to his client. Then the client of the Kosher wine and he sold it to his client. Then the, the client of the kosher one came, said what happened? He said don't worry, I will pay for any damage that you had. I will pay for hold the mashgi him, I will pay for everything. But you know, the one was so. The price was so up, raised up that I could not sell it yeah.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 27:29

So there's a dispute. The client said, okay, it's my wine, I paid for it, I had a down payment, I paid for the wine with a contract. So they went to court and the judge said this sale was only a religious act. It's not a proper sale. It was done only for religious reason. So the winemaker is totally right, it's his wine and he can sell it. You have to pay for damage, of course you will. You will pay for the mashgikhim, for the work, for whatever you spend on your side, but it's considered to be his one. So my father went to Rav Eliashvili saying, yeah, we hadn't had her.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 28:15

Because of this contract, and if they're going to throw this contract out in court, it destroys the whole basis for how we can do this.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 28:27

Yeah, okay, the whole, the whole basis for how we can do this. Yeah, okay. So rabbi ashley said that the judge is a reversible judgment. I mean, he said that way, but maybe another judge if, if it was a voted low by parliament, that's a problem. But a decision of a judge, don't make the halacha to change that way, because there can be a second judge that will say, yeah, it's a contract, it's serious, so that's not a problem for us. But it was a very interesting question. You know some details that we can forget about, but are the base of kosher wine for?

Solomon Simon Jacob: 29:04

yeah that's really really interesting. Do you like drinking wine? Yeah, okay, as do you have a preference?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 29:15

um, so I'm french, yeah, and I like french wine well, now you're israeli.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 29:21

Yeah, yeah, that's right, my friend yeah, that's right, but I have some difficulties to to get used to the israeli wines. Of course there is great wines in israel. Yeah, there is great wines, and the weather is. There is bracha, special bracha in artisan, but the wood you probably know what I'm speaking about. They like the wine. You can feel the barrels in Israel and I prefer more smooth wines, softer, yeah, softer, and then like in Bordeaux. You know they can do very, very high level wines, but there is something soft in the wine. Of course, not all of them, but I can find that in France easily than in Israel, but of course I'm living here. So what I'm doing usually when I'm in Israel I'm drinking the Israeli wines, and in France I will drink French wine.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 30:22

Do you know of Israeli wines that kind of follow that taste profile? Do you know of any?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 30:29

Yeah, there is one, so maybe the one that I can think about, matar, you know, matar, sure, yeah, so this one is.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 30:44

So you mentioned Matar, Pelter Pelter, yeah, yeah. So they make Matar as their kosar, Pelter Pelter. Yeah. So they make Matar as their kosher wine, the kosher wine yeah, okay, so I don't own the winery.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 30:54

I was closed by last vacation, but I didn't step in because I was with all my family and my kids. But, yeah, that's the kind of wine that I can like.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 31:05

Are there any specific people, winemakers or wine owners or people that you've worked with, that you've especially enjoyed working with?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 31:16

Okay, so I will mention my guy. It's Rav Eliyahu Caliph.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 31:20

That is for 25 years doing and running all our stuff in the wineries in France and he's a very professional guy really and I always have good comments. I'm going to wineries, speaking with the people there, and they're always very happy with his job. So that's the first guy that I want to mention. He manages the team. Yeah, he manages the team. Yeah, he manages the team, and he's working also all the year around. I mean, I I told you that we have one, two or three people working all the year around in the wine, so he's, he's one of them. He's working all the year on kosher wine. That is job and he's really all over france. He's, he can be in bordeaux and the day after in the Beaujolais and in Champagne and in Pays de la Loire, whatever all around France, cote de Provence, and that's that special job that you have, because working in the wine is something beautiful. And if you also know the kosher side and the professional side, so you're a blessed man. Yeah, you're very very blessed.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 32:33

Are there any specific wineries? Can you mention some of the specific wineries that you give hodgkata to?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 32:39

yeah, so we have a good partnership with someone that you know in dr wine, uh, dr ralph madep. Yeah, so we're doing many wines with him in italy, so I would mention him. We I went to pescaya. It's one of the one that is doing. It's not the expensive one, but it's very, very good value for money. On my opinion, it's extraordinary wine, very precise. All the process are so professionally done. On my opinion, it's a very, it's a great Italian wine and, of course, it's not very expensive wine, but it's very good wine. On my opinion.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 33:21

In Italy, if we want to stay in Italy, we for many years. I know a league otye, you probably heard about him, so we're giving him a half for all his debuts and uh, also, he's doing an extraordinary, extraordinary job in in italy and good wines and very beautiful bottles. And on the personal side, I love Eddie. It's, it's a good friend. Above all, that's in Italy and in France. We working with JSI his name is missus Ria and he's doing he one of the of the first person doing good kosher wines with very, very attractive pricing. His market is doing attractive prices for many different types of wine. You can find a Saint-Emilion, a kosher Saint-Emilion, for less than 10 euros and he's doing an extraordinary job to have a good value for money on the wines. So we're working with him. For many years, his father unfortunately passed away and he was running the business. Now his son is running the business. That's people that we work with for many years.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 34:39

You asked about wineries, not only. Okay, when I was young, I work in different wineries, in the harvest and in different steps, so I will mention two of them. One of them is a Tavel wine. It's a rosé in France. It's probably not one of the most known rosé, but the story was interesting because harvest happens sometimes in Sukkot. Yeah, it happens in the middle of the Chagim. In the middle of the Chagim it's always complicated. The story was interesting because harvest happens sometimes in Sukkot.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 35:09

Yeah, it happens in the middle of the Chagim. In the middle of the Chagim it's always complicated. I have a nice story also about it, but maybe later. But in Tavel we went, me and another Mashgiach that was much more experienced than me I was very young and it was Chol Amo Et Sukkot. So we bring our Abba Tamim in, because you know you're going there early in the morning for the work. We stop in the middle for the evening.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 35:35

And so the winemaker saw us with the Arbat Aminim and he was not understanding what is it. So I had to explain him that we take four different types of people and we join them together. We said we all joined in one in front of Hashem. So he enjoyed the explanation and then we decided to make the sukkah. We built the sukkah in this place and we had them. Of course, olhedrachim are not obliged with, uh, obliged with suka, but if you can do it, why not? So we built a suka and he was very impressed and he came with a not not not a wine, but a whiskey, because his wine was non-kosher and he offers to drink was a very, very nice experience for a young guy.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 36:29

Very cool. Yeah, it's a great way to build connections so that people realize that Jews are not evil. That we do things differently, it's not because we don't respect them or their own traditions yeah, so it's important, that's right.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 36:54

that's what? Because, as you broadcast his name, tell, while in France you can find that that people are very in the tradition and so when you come with a different view sometimes can be there is a tension sometimes. So, as you say, it's very important to make things that we can work together on a nice way, okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 37:22

You said you had another story.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 37:24

Okay, regarding Chagim and wine. So that's a very interesting story. My father was approached by someone very known in the wine in Bordeaux, in Saint-Emilion. Monsieur Thunevin is the owner and winemaker on the Chateau Valandro Valandro. You know, one of the big difference between French wine and Israeli wine, that Israeli wine, there is the knowledge and the learning for all different areas from the winemakers, but the rules are very smooth in israel. In france, we have very, very strict rules. I need to check that again, but I think, if I remember, you cannot buy more than a certain amount of sugar in bordeaux area because they don't want you to make sugar in the wine.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 38:25

There is very strict rules on what you can and cannot do in wineries in France, and that's the way that you will get the appellation, what it's called the designation if it's a Grand Cru Classé in Saint-Emilion, so that was the case of Mr Thunevin in Chateau Val-en-Drope.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 38:47

Grand Crué in saint-emilion, so that was the case of mr tune vine in chateau valenon. And one year they decided to make the taste with covering. It was raining, so they decided to cover with plastic, yeah, the, the grape, the, the, the wines, the, the vines, the grape. Yeah, the grape, the wines, the vines, the grape vines. And they cover it to try to see how it can protect them from the raining. Because when it's raining it's taking all the sugar from the grapes and that's very bad for the wine. So they made it to try and he decided that it was for the wine. So they made it try and he decided that it was good. So he continued with it. And some time he said, okay, we made it try one year, but you're not allowed to continue with it. We decided to not do it and he said, okay, I want to continue. And so they took all the designation from his bottle. I mean, it can be only a wine table with not any specific designation.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 39:59

So of course that kills you. Yeah, that kills you, okay. So, but he was smarter than them. He decided to make a big, huge, uh promotion of this wine. He called it the forbidden wine and it was all over and it doubled his sales and the pricing was very high. Everyone wanted to try the forbidden wine of valendo and so the wine became famous. So the year after the Jewish client say I want six thousand bottle of this wine, kosher wine, and they approached my father to give dash gaha okay everything was done and there was some Vin Expo in New York.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 40:49

I don't know the name of the specific show that they went to, but Mr Twinland said to my father, you in charge of the kosher wine, you should come with us to New York to present the wines. Okay, my father is a rogue, it's not exactly what he'd like to do, but it was part of the experience. So they went to new york and robert parker you know, robert, of course, that if he gave you a good note, the sales are growing and if not, so he's the young keeper of the winemakers. Yeah, he's trying the wine and tasting the wine, and so he tastes the wine of Valandro, blind taste, and he gave a very high note I don't remember if it was 97, 98 to the non-kosher, the conventional wine, and when he tastes the kosher he gave one point more than the non-kosher. So that was too much for Mrer. I said to my father you young guy that don't know nothing about, uh, winemaking cannot do a better job than my winemaker. That have 40 years of experience. It's not possible, just not possible, how that can happen.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 42:06

So they set and they spoke. They check every step of the winemaking to make sure what was the difference? It's the same grapes, the same barrels, the same, everything was the same. So, just with less experienced people for the kosher one. So how that happened to get the option that robert parker made a mistake was not an option? Okay, just with less experienced people for the kosher one. So how does it happen that you get the option that Robert Parker made a mistake was not an option? Okay, and they check and they finally got an answer. They decide to pick up the grapes on the day that was Shemini Atzeret for us, so in Chutz Laaretz we have two days. So they called the Mashgikhim.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 42:53

Nobody was answering, so they decide to leave the grapes of the kosher wine on the on the, and it was two days of beautiful sun and we got the, a noble moisture on the on the, on the grapes. That was for the kosher wine and they say probably that was the reason why the kosher batch got a better note than the non-kosher one. So my father always bring this story. You know, when you have, for some reason, kosher procedure that brings you to some delays or something that you're afraid of, he said you see, if you're doing the things properly, you have the bracha and you can have some good result.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 43:49

Wow that's amazing.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 43:53

That's an amazing story I know we spoke a lot and we went in some different directions. I come up with stories every time, but maybe to make some order in the way that the kosher wine is done, so I mean it's the same way that non-kosher wine is done. We spoke about the importance of having a mashgach available all the time. It's from the beginning of the harvest, I mean when they're picking the grapes, until the bottling. I mean. So you also have the different steps coming. After fermentation, after filtration, you have the wine is already ready. It's an aged wine If it's in Saint-Emilion two years past already, and now you coming for bottling.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 44:43

so some wines are bottled in the in the castle in the same place, but some wines can be bringing in different areas in France and there is specific places doing bottling for wine, so every step need to be done. Areas in France and there is specific places doing bottling for wine, so every, every step need to be done under the supervision of the mesh gear. He's in charge, of course, of doing the hot amount on if the wine needs to travel on every truck.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 45:13

In some instances they'll take the wine and they'll move it in bulk out of the winery to another place in order to bottle it. See, I didn't even think of that, okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 45:23

Yeah, they can do that. And now they're actually transporting these wines kosher wines to Israel, yeah, and then re-bottling it here in Israel. I got a bottle of wine from Carmel. That totally confused me. Here's this bottle of wine. It's private seller, private collection Carmel wine, and it's usually in the cheaper brands of wines that you're doing it. But I've never seen this such Israeli branding on a bottle and it was from Argentina and it's like you know, wait a minute, hold on a second. Um, this is Carmel's private cellar collection and it's wine coming from Argentina.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 46:16

So it's now they're getting into moving bulk wines around yeah, so the, the israeli rabbinate who's in charge of uh validation for all, the, the that is in charge of uh accepting anything coming from outside of israel to israel that is marked as kosher and not allowing to bring bolts usually. So that's something that is not allowed all the year round. I know there are some expect exceptions, but the the known one is the one to the Shemitah, so that's the reason we have the year of the Shemitah, so this year there is less wine in Israel, so they're allowed to bring bulks of wine from outside of Israel and bottling here in Israel. So probably that was the case.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 47:11

Yeah, the.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 47:11

Shemitah.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 47:12

Okay, do you get involved with Shemitah wines at all? Not really.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 47:16

Not really. We have the problem in France sometimes that you have products that are not really wines but can be grape juice, so you need a kosher grape juice, of course, and they're using it concentrate for different reasons in the factories, and so you need to be aware that if it's coming from Israel, it can be sometimes Shemitah.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 47:42

So they actually send concentrates to France? Yeah, for factories, yeah, many For jam and for other.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 47:49

Yeah, exactly. And if we want to see something also speaking about Shemitah, you can have Israel drinking a lot of orange juice and different other type of juices. Juices, yeah, but they don't like pulp, so you can have pulp from heritage was sold to be mixed with different other countries, so you can have a bottle that is with Spanish orange juice, but the pulp is coming from Eretz Israel, because the pricing of the pulp of Eretz Israel is better than the one of different other countries.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 48:37

But that comes without hashgachah. Well, there's no hashgacha on it anyway, but if it's of a Jew, it can be with hashgacha, with eter mechira.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 48:47

You need to be careful. If you're accepting eter mechira, so you will have no problem, but most of the hashgachot not working with eter mechira, so you need to be careful that the product that you're getting from eric israel that's something that surprise every time that the people that we're working with, that we're saying from if it's a concentrated juice coming from europe is less complicated than the concentrated juice from eric israel. I said what that's a juice doingDS. They don't understand why we why you're doing that.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 49:21

Yeah, you know secondary issues that you'd never think about. I mean everybody. Nobody thinks about it, except people who are involved in Ashgaha and people who are involved in making wine.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 49:36

If you're speaking about some things that are very secondary issues but we need to think about when you're doing Ashgaha. You have also barrels that are double jackets because they want to cold or heat the wine during the process of fermentation. So that's not many places are using it, but there are some wineries Cold fermentation, the people that do cold.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 50:04

Yeah.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 50:07

And so you need to take out the water from the double jacket and change it in order to do kosher wine, because you cannot if a product stays for more than 24 hours in containers and there is water on the two sides of the container there is cross-contamination and the water on the outside of the double jacket becomes non-kosher.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 50:37

water of the outside of the double jacket become non-kosher. So of course you can say that, etc. But in this case usually it's the opposite. You have a huge amount of wine in the containers and the water outside is much less. There is this kind of issues that are secondary issues, but you need to come and think about it when you're doing all the kosher steps for wineries. What about?

Solomon Simon Jacob: 51:06

things like glycol. They're not water. They have glycol that flows through in order to cool and heat. That's also an issue. Yeah, okay, yeah. Every type of liquid but even though it's not mixing with the wine, because that's what I said.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 51:27

You have water in the two sides of the same surface same material. So if it's heated or if it's staying more than 24 hours at kavushki mevushal, we say so it's a cross-contamination for the water outside also.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 51:49

So it goes through, that, passes through the metal. Okay, even though there's absolutely no way for that material to touch on either side. What if the water was water that was non-potable? Yeah, so that's changed everything. Then it's okay.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 52:07

Yeah, okay, yeah, wow. So that's something that we do. In some areas, we're using something to make the water not drinkable, but in the wine, I think that it's more complicated. They will not accept it, wow.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 52:26

So the preparation that you need when you go into a winery is far more than I ever thought. I thought maybe you just have to clean out the vats and wash them out, and what have you? It's much, much more complicated than anything like that.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 52:38

Yeah, sometimes it can be very tricky. You have also a part of pasteurization. That is the bichoule for the wine. Yeah, if you're doing Mabouchard. Yeah, if you're doing Mabouchard On those days we're doing flash pasteurization. So it's a truck coming to the place and heating the wine to 93 degrees. Some agency accept a little bit less, but yeah, it's to around 93 degrees Centigrade. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 53:15

I don't know how to translate. That's very hot. Yeah, that's very hot, and the boiling point is 100.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 53:18

I'm sorry, I don't know how to translate. That's very hot. Yeah, that's very hot, and the boiling point is 100. Now the question is that the Bishul of the wine needs to have two critters. It needs to change the flavor of the wine. It needs also to evaporate some part of the wine. You need some the wine to become less.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 53:42

Yeah, evaporate, we need. We need some part of the wine to evaporate, okay. And the question is about flash, posterior, flash pasteurization that we have quickly pasteurized, that you eating the product for two seconds and then it's got cold immediately. So it's killing all the bacterias, etc. And so the wine will not change, will not be ages it doesn't evaporate, it doesn't evaporate and in our days it doesn't change the taste of the wine.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 54:14

We did test on the kosher wines that we pasteurized part of it and the second part was not pasteurized and people couldn't say the difference. So really it's a question about the quality of the Mevouchal that we have nowadays and that's something that the Poschim have a discussion about it if it can be considered as a Bichou. So usually you will say on the bottles Mevushal by pasteurization, Mevushal at 89 degrees, so you will have the precision. So who wants to be soymilk on that, to rely on the pasteurization, to be a Bishul, can do it. But for the people who say that it's not enough, so they will know that it's not a real Mavushal wine, it's not like a grape juice that gets really pasteurized.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 55:10

What I'm always bothered by is the whole concept of Mavushal. I love it, to be quite honest, because without Mifushal wines there are no wines available in restaurants in America. Okay, so I'm not going to a place where I don't agree with Mifushal or what have you. The problem I have is that in one breath you're saying mefushal, In the other breath you're saying you have to say alegefen, bereperegefen. If it's mefushal, honestly is it bereperegefen?

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 55:53

Yeah.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 55:54

Why.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 55:54

Because grape juice is also bereperegefen. Yeah, but it's not grape juice, it's what you call it, but grape juice is also Borei.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 55:58

Prehagefen yeah, but it's not grape juice. It's what you call it, but grape juice is the same as wine. Mevushal is making it. Not wine, not grape juice even.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 56:08

The criteria of Mevushal is making it not accepted to be an offering, to be a korban, to become For non-Jews, for Jews also to non Jews, for Jews also. For Jesus in the beta make dash. You cannot bring him a shall wine with your call, but not so for the new, so high I. You use only normal shall wine. So the criterias is not that it's become normal wine by definition with this wine. That is not accepted for the holy services and that's on my opinion. That's okay. Yeah, that that is the point. Of course it's wine. I mean we calling it it's not anymore wine because you know that's the easiest way to say it, but but that's not what we really mean. Yeah, the meaning it's that it's not anymore wine because you know that's the easiest way to say it, but that's not what we really mean.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 57:00

Yeah the meaning is that it's not accepted anymore for services.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 57:05

For services in the Beta Migdash. In the Beta Migdash, but also for the non-Jews, because it's the same. Okay, we want a copy-paste on the Yai Nesach. Yeah, we know that we have two levels. We have Stam Yenam that it's not a wine that serves for the Avodah Zarah. This one is totally forbidden. We have the Stam Yenam that it's by rabbinical order that we're not using any non-kosher wine, and the rules are a copy-paste of the Yainesach, of the one that it used for service for the Avodah Zarah. For the Avodah Zarah.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 57:48

Okay, wow, I didn't. Even so, we feel that what we had, what we used for Avodah in the Beta Migdash, was the same type of product that they would use in their for Avodah Zarah. So as soon as we make it not usable for in the Beta Migdash, it becomes something that we can use, I guess. But that's okay.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 58:24

But Stamye Nam, it will not be used for the Avodah Zarah. Okay, yes, so you have no reason to Worry about it. Worry about it All what we're keeping on our days. It's regarding Stamye Nam. We have no. The ramas said that nobody is, uh, no know how to do nissu hayan in our days, right, so there is no real avodah zara in the wine today, but everything that we're keeping is regarding stamina, just that the rabbis decide that the alahot all Stamienam will be a copy-paste of the wine that is a Yain Nesr. So that's the reason why we have very similar to them the rules between the two wines, but one it's from the Torah and the second one is a rabbinical order, and just it's the same rules and the same criterias on the kosher wine. Very interesting.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 59:31

Very cool. All right, thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. That really even clarified it for me. I didn't think I was going to need a clarification, but it does. It helps. It helps tremendously. All right, I've taken over a lot of your time, so I really want to say thank you very much for being here, for being on the Kosher Terroir and Todah, and I look forward to speaking to you again in the future with more questions, with God's help. And I look forward to speaking to you again in the future with more questions, with God's help. But thank you for all of the wines that you've been bringing in. That are just amazing, especially with Dr Ralph.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 1:00:06

Thank you, simon. Thank you for having me. It was really a pleasure for me, pleasure for me. The conversation was good. I hope that I didn't speak too much.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:00:16

I'm happy you spoke too much. It's good.

Rabbi Rafhael Wolff: 1:00:20

Thank you very much and I hope to have a long discussion with you in the future.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:00:37

this is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes and thank you for listening to the Kosher Terroir.