Eran Pick MW: Tzora Winery and a Passion for Shoresh's Unique Terroir

What does transforming a small winery into a major mover in the Israeli wine industry take? This episode of The Kosher Terroir holds the answers as we chat with Eran Pick, the winemaker and general manager at Tzora Vineyards. Eran's journey into the world of winemaking began with an unexpected spark during his time in the Israeli Air Force, leading him to a passionate career marked by global experiences and prestigious education. Discover how a chance encounter with Riesling in the Mosul Valley paved the way for Eran's deep dive into viticulture and enology—starting from WSET courses in New York to earning a degree from UC Davis and gaining invaluable experience in renowned regions like Napa, Sonoma, Barossa, and Bordeaux.

Throughout our conversation, we unravel the delicate balance between scientific knowledge and practical hands-on experience that defines a skilled winemaker. Eran opens up about the unique terroir of Shoresh in the Judean Hills, comparing it to Bordeaux's Médoc region and how factors like altitude, soil composition, and climate play a crucial role in the quality of wine. We also delve into the pressing issue of climate change and its impact on viticulture, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and vision in modern winemaking. Eran's story is one of passion, dedication, and a relentless pursuit of excellence—a journey that offers valuable insights for anyone interested in the art and science of wine.

Lastly, we journey through the evolution of Tzora Vineyards, from its humble beginnings in the 1980s to becoming a cornerstone of the Israeli boutique wine industry. Eran shares the challenges and triumphs of establishing a winery within a kibbutz, the pivotal investments and technological advancements that propelled the winery forward, and the invaluable support from experts like Jean-Claude Berouet. We discuss the balance between maintaining high production standards and navigating the unpredictability of vintages and the irreplaceable value of working with passionate, like-minded individuals. Join us for an engaging exploration of Eran Pick's remarkable contributions to the world of wine, and the timeless craft of winemaking.

Tzora Vineyards
The Judean Hills

Eran Pick MW Winemaker & General Manager
Dan Sheinman Winemaker

Website https://www.tzoravineyards.com/

Contact Info
Tzora Vineyards
 D.N. Shimshon 99803
 Israel
Tel: +972-2-9908261
info@tzoravineyards.com

Our tasting room is conveniently located between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
We offer a guided tasting of wines, by appointment only.
Visiting Hours
Sunday to Thursday 10:00-16:00
Friday 09:00-14:00

Transcript

S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following is an extremely interesting conversation with Eran Pick, the winemaker and general manager at Tzora Vineyards. Eran completed his BS degree in viticulture and enology with highest honors at the University of California Davis. He was hired at Tzora by its founder vintner and legendary winemaker, Ronnie James, in 2006, following a few training periods at wineries in Napa, Sonoma, Barossa and Bordeaux. Unfortunately, in early 2008, Ronnie sadly passed away. But Eran has continued his legacy conservatively growing the team and their vineyards in Shoresh, focusing on the Judean Hills region's terroir. Last year, Eran and Tzora's second winemaker Dan Scheinman, along with Golan Flam, Flam winery's renowned winemaker, purchased a winery in the Médoc region of Bordeaux, france. It was a true honor to spend time with Iran discussing his past and very exciting future wine plans. If you're in your car, please focus on the road ahead and if you're relaxing at home, please grab a delicious glass of kosher wine, sit back and enjoy. I'd like to welcome you, Eran Pick, from Tzora Winery onto the podcast and I have a few questions. Okay, can you give me a little bit of a rundown of your personal wine history? Where did you start getting into wine? Wine history when did you start getting into wine? What did you do before you got into wine?

Eran Pick MW: 2:08

I fell in love with wine quite late in my life. My first glass of wine probably was when I was 22 years old. Before that I didn't grow up in a family that drank wine. I never saw any wine on the table. But I was lucky enough to be in the Israeli Air Force and we were sent. When I was 22 years old I was sent to a flight simulator in Germany in a German Air Force base that was very close to the Mosul Valley and we were training during the day and during the afternoon we had free time So I visited a few wineries and actually when I remember they were one of the best on the Middle Mosul. One of them was Dr Luzon, the other one was Delba Roster, and they welcomed me very nicely and gave me some Mosul Riesling to drink and I was extremely surprised, first of all from the warm welcome, from the beautiful vineyards outside of their wineries and from Riesling. It was such a beautiful wine to experience. Especially it was my first experience. So you know it's half dry, it's very light, very aromatic and very easy to fall in love with. So I came back to Israel and that was mid-90s. The Israeli wine industry started to be serious with very nice small wineries like, Castel Tzora the first years, and very nice wine shops like Dereich Hayayin in Tel Aviv, avi Ben in Jerusalem, and they started to have a small wine culture in Israel. So I started to get interested in wine, reading books, going to small wineries Some of them don't exist anymore, but in Israel and start to travel in France to wine regions. And after I finished my duty I decided I want to make this my profession. So I moved to New York and then California and studied winemaking in UC Davis. That's the beginning. That's the beginning. That was the beginning.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:50

You said that you did the wine set WSET. Yeah, when did you do that?

Eran Pick MW: 4:56

That was in America already. Yeah, I was in America. I think I'm the first one to graduate with a diploma as an Israeli, and that was in 2000. I started studying in 2001 when I lived in New York. In New York there's the International Wine Center, a place where they taught still today WSCT courses, and I did first the advanced. Back then it was called the advanced, then the diploma, what today they call level 4 and I studied in New York, which is a very nice place to study because you have so many wines available very easily. In Israel it's much tougher, but in New York it's great. So I studied it was in Chelsea market and I graduated in 2003. It's much tougher, but in New York it's great. So I studied. It was in Chelsea Market and I graduated in 2003.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:49

Very cool and then you went into. Then you decided to go to UC Davis.

Eran Pick MW: 5:54

Yes. So before that actually way before that I think in 2001, maybe I decided to make it my profession. So I approached Davis and I said I want to study winemaking. I don't have a bachelor degree. I want to have my bachelor degree in viticulture and oenology, but I want to stay in New York as much as possible. What courses can I study? Can I finish in New York and then transfer? You know all the basic the first two years it's kind of a pre-med studying. So we do all the chemistry, physics, biology, organic chemistry and so on. So I done that in New York and transferred these courses to UC Davis and I worked as a student.

Eran Pick MW: 7:13

I worked in a laboratory in a very nice place in Napa Wine Company in Napa. Actually my plans were to stay there, live in San Francisco maybe, and work in Napa or Sonoma, but I wanted to do another harvest. So I got a very nice harvest. After graduating I went to Australia to do a harvest. You know you do it as a young winemaker. It's better to do two harvests a year Right North hemisphere, south hemisphere. So I went to Australia in the Barossa Valley.

Eran Pick MW: 7:53

And before going there I came to Israel to visit my family and I visited Ronnie James, who founded the Thara Vineyards, and he actually, after a few minutes, after he met me, he told me that he was looking for a winemaker and he offered me the job. I was very surprised but he took me to the vineyard in Shoresh and I knew Ronnie as a wine lover in the 90s and it just looked as a great opportunity. So I said, yes, I would love to come, but I want to go to Australia now. It was, I think, January 2006. I'll come back in July and start work in July. And he said, yes, that works great. So I came back after a harvest in Australia, started works great. So I came back after harvest in Australia, started working here.

Eran Pick MW: 8:48

Most people know Ronnie was quite sick in 2006. And he wanted, he was looking for a winemaker for a while. He wanted because he's done a great job in finding vineyards and kind of. He was looking for someone to continue his job and I was lucky enough to come at the right time Very lucky.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:16

So Ronnie passed away in 2008? Yes, February 2008. Yes, and then you really took over. You took over before that because he was sick anyway, so he was already passing the baton to you.

Eran Pick MW: 9:32

Yeah, I think I was very surprised when I came in 2006. I didn't have any experience, of course, as a winemaker. I'd done a couple of harvests. I knew about wine, but it's different when you're responsible. It's very, you know, it's a big. We done a big harvest in 2006. I was surprised that Rony I knew he was very hands-on. It was very hard for him to pass away his duties to another person. But in 2006, I was very surprised that during the harvest he almost didn't interfere. He was quite sick and he was here, but in the winery he almost didn't. I remember I was very surprised that he almost didn't come inside the winery. And of course, as any young winemaker, I remember all the mistakes I've done, or at least some of them. But for me it was a great kind of it threw me into the pool and I started swimming from the beginning. So 2006 was a big harvest. 2007, we decided to have a smaller harvest was a big harvest. 2007,. We decided to have a smaller harvest.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:47

But from 2008 on I was alone, yeah, so what started the thought of getting a master of wine. That's a huge undertaking. Yes, especially with the winery and everything else that you were doing here.

Eran Pick MW: 11:02

Yes, I think my personal thoughts about being a winemaker. There is the scientific knowledge which you gain through a university. You can, of course, do it by your own, but it's better to go and you know. The scientific knowledge gives you the ability to open a book or open a new scientific paper and understand, or at least try to understand. It gives you the basis to understand the scientific papers, which I think is important, but doesn't make you a good winemaker. It does not make you a good winemaker. It does not For me.

Eran Pick MW: 11:49

Being a good winemaker, you need to have a great knowledge of the world of wine Different styles, different grapes, different regions, different possibilities of what to do with you. Grow Chardonnay, that's good. You know how to ferment, that's good. You know that a wine needs to go through malolactic if it's red, but do you have any vision where the wine is going, what kind of style With this? These questions, for me, are much more important than the scientific knowledge. So I really think that the WSCT is a good basis of the world of wine knowledge. It's a good basis.

Eran Pick MW: 12:30

But the Master of Wine gives you a lot of let's say, a lot of practice questions, very difficult questions, trying to answer these questions, knowing that there isn't. You know, as you go deeper into any knowledge, you start to understanding which questions you can ask. You understand that each question has many possibilities. There isn't any any, only one possibility. So for me it was not very easy, because I was working here full time, I had three small children and you need to work, you need to study during the evenings until very late. But it gives me a great instrument, first of all to practice my palate, second of all, to understand wine as a wider object. It's something that is not just grape juice that is fermented correctly and put into the bottle. It's much more deeper than that and with a lot of possibilities, and I'm very lucky and happy that I took this route.

S. Simon Jacob: 13:58

Very cool. This is your 18th or 19th harvest, probably 19th, 19th 2004.

Eran Pick MW: 14:04

Yeah, so you wereth 19th 2004. Yeah, so you were here 19th. Okay, yeah, 2024 is my 19th harvest.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:11

Harvest. Okay, I know you're very into the terroir, especially in Shoresh. Yeah, the question Shoresh is the vineyard. This is the sole vineyard that you use for wine.

Eran Pick MW: 14:22

Today we have 200 dunams in Shoresh with seven or eight different varieties for 20 plus plots which give us a wide range of possibilities in the blending process.

Eran Pick MW: 14:37

As you know, all the wines of Tsara vineyards are blended and blended from different plots and different varieties, and for me, the Juden Hills is a very interesting terroir. I like the soil, I like the different aspects. It's very beautiful. Of course the high altitude helps with cooler climate. Of course we're speaking now during a day that is very hot. I was already 7.30 in the morning in the vineyard and it was quite hot during this morning.

Eran Pick MW: 15:17

But this is, I wouldn't say, rare. We have a warm summer, but it's not. It's quite convenient summer, not extremely hot, I think what it's about 700 meters, about 700. Yeah, the average is 650. The lowest point is about 580 or 560. The highest is 700 meters. It's on the north aspect, northwest aspect, and it's quite windy all the time, a breeze that comes from the Mediterranean, and I think it's great. I'm not saying it's the only excellent terroir in Israel, israel, but I think we are understanding that finding very good terroirs in Israel is extremely important. It's something that probably 30 years ago wasn't that important and today people I mean winemakers or wineries that are looking to plant something interesting. First look at the terroir, at the vineyard potential, and it's a good way to go.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:34

You really have to take into account the country and exactly where you are, because so many people look. In Europe, there are parts that look for south-facing vineyards and here it's ideal to have a northern-facing vineyard.

Eran Pick MW: 16:51

So of course we also. As you know, since last year we also grow wine in Bordeaux, in a very nice plot in the Médoc region I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, and it's totally different to Oire, it's. You know, it's funny. Someone, a winemaker there, told me ah, we're the highest elevation in the Médoc, and I asked him how much. He said 42 meters. So here, so there it's you know 40.

Eran Pick MW: 17:21

what a difference. Yeah, 45th latitude and it's. They don't need, of course, the high for Cabanembre law to to ripen. They're very close to the ocean, they don't need high altitudes and the soil is very, very different. It's deeper soil, it's more sandy soil, it's gravel soil, but it's, it's all. As you said. You said you need to take into account everything, although we grow the same varieties. For us, we have a warmer winter, we have a warmer season, we have a shorter season and we need, in order to get good ripeness in Israel, to go higher in altitude and, of course, look for the north aspect to get away from the sun. Until the 80s or 90s. We're looking for a lot of sun as well, and I think it will. Because of the climate change, I'm quite sure that they'll move into a more shaded viticulture because they see today that they have warmer vintages as well.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:41

What's the impact of having such shallow soil with a limestone underneath it, immediately underneath it? I know when I went to Castel. It's amazing that you could even create a vineyard in some of these places because there's so much limestone. It's almost on a rock.

Eran Pick MW: 18:59

Right, you're growing very, very shallow soil For us, sometimes 10 centimeters deep, sometimes 40 centimeters deep A lot of the vineyard is around 30 centimeters deep.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:12

What does that do to the vines, the?

Eran Pick MW: 19:14

vines are quite small. They can't bear a lot of fruit. They can only ripen a very small amount of fruit, very lot of fruit. They can only ripen very small amount of fruit. There's a huge difference between growing here around Sora, let's say Cabernet Sauvignon, that you can put a lot of fruit on the vine because it has much deeper soil, much deeper vigor, much bigger vigor, strength, a lot of strength, a lot of reserves. In the mountains, in the hills, they have very shallow soil, not a lot of reserves. The vines are very weak, so they can ripen not a lot of fruit. And it means that on most of the places we must irrigate here in the deeper soil, you can find places where you don't have to irrigate. Also, in Shoresh we have a couple of plots on a deeper soil near a water table that they don't need any irrigation. But I'm not saying good or bad, it's just the vine grows under different conditions and bears smaller fruit, sometimes more concentrated, more interesting, than you grow on a deeper soil with a lot of fruit.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:45

A lot of times people look to stress the vines in order to get more interesting fruit out of it.

Eran Pick MW: 20:49

So I guess, in a way, that this is definitely it's a natural stress, it's a natural stress it's always on a stress which means you're on the limit, always on the limit of ripening, and it's very important to lower the amount of fruit.

S. Simon Jacob: 21:07

So overall it's always going to be lower yields. Yes.

Eran Pick MW: 21:11

Our average is about 700 kilograms per dunam, and here you grow usually depends on the wine, of course, but if you grow 700 kilos per dunam on a very deep soil, very wealthy, healthy soil, and you try to put the fruit down, sometimes you get big berries. Yes, because it's always about balance and finding a balance. With smaller fruit. On the hills it's very easy finding on balance on smaller yield. When the, when the soil is very deep and and and a lot of um, you know, um, not very stress, it's very hard to find balance in lower amount of fruit. So you grow a lot of fruit and then usually you have, let's say, I wouldn't say diluted, but not as complex wine from that Coming out of it. Yeah, coming out of it, yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:18

The vineyard's interaction with the Mediterranean is how does it interact?

Eran Pick MW: 22:24

It's very interesting. First of all, we see we are one of the first hilltops of the Judean hills, so when we stand in the vineyard we see the Mediterranean. The Mediterranean is very important for the Judean First, it brings a lot of wind from the west, important for the Judeanians. First, it brings a lot of wind from the west. We get wind from the west, which is better to get from the east and south of Israel because there are cooler winds, so it cools down these winds. Actually breezes cool down the microclimate of the grapes. In addition, we have some mists early morning because the cool air from Jerusalem and the warmer air during the night that comes from the Mediterranean kind of collides together around the Judean hills and we see very nice fog in the morning, which is important because it brings cooler and more shade in early mornings to the grapes, kind of like San Francisco.

Eran Pick MW: 23:42

Yeah, in Napa it's more extreme because on the Napa floor you really have cool breezes coming from the Pacific Ocean and you see a lot of times the hills in Napa are above the fog. Right, it's quite the same, quite the same. I think. I don't remember the frequency that that does happen, but in Napa I think it's more often. But here you have from time to time fog, which is very nice, and that's why we call one of the wines Misty Hills and it's more. It's what we call a classic Mediterranean climate. Let's say, in the east part of the Golan Heights you have more continental climate, which means sometimes a warmer day, a cooler night. Here the Mediterranean moderates the climate. You have a bit warmer nights, but you have cooler days.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:48

Are there any other additional key attributes of the terroir that express in the wine?

Eran Pick MW: 24:55

It's very interesting. I think limestone is the story of this region we have. It's practically like we are growing on a limestone yeah, on a limestone. The Tethys Sea was here millions of years ago and we believe millions of years ago, yep, and it left a lot of micro elements, creatures that actually fell apart, and all these creatures created the limestones. I love the fossils, yeah, so we have many, many, many huge fossils in the vineyard and I think limestone is very important in wine. It's usually limestone brings elegance and minerality into the wines. Actually, when you look at the greatest, some of the greatest soils around the world, limestone is part of it. Famously, in Saint-Emilion right bank, you see that the best wires are filled with limestones. I think it moderates a bit the alcohol. It brings minerality and elegance into the wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:17

Tell me a little bit about the history of the Judean Hills. Was it always covered with vineyards like this?

Eran Pick MW: 26:24

No. So if we talked 40 years ago, 30 years ago there weren't any vineyards on the high part of the Judean hills. I think the first small vineyard in the Judean hills was planted by Elie Ben-Zaken next to his house, a very small, I think two or three dunams, I'm not sure about the size, but with his wines. I think he planted in 88 or something like that. I think first vintage was 92. And then Roni planted in Nevei Lan in 96. First one was made in 99, called Ilan Tzuba, planted after that and then in the late 90s, early 2000,. A lot of people planted more and more vineyards. Before that in Shoresh. In Shoresh we started planting in 2000. Before that there were cherries, peaches, plums yeah, I think so.

Eran Pick MW: 27:35

And they changed to vineyards in the early 2000s and one of the reasons actually was because of water availability. Vines need much less water and back then, 20 years ago, water was a big, big problem. Then solved by desalination a few years later. But today, I think very close to 100% of the agriculture area on the high Judean hills is planted with vineyards. There's still, I think, a bit, maybe bit apples, maybe in Suba and maybe in Gush Etzion, I'm not sure but maybe some cherries. But I think vineyards now are almost 100% of the area, which is quite fast from zero to 100 in 20 years. It's very, very fast, Unbelievable, Unbelievable. I think two things happened. One is, as I said, water availability, Maybe some of the fruit, as cherries probably need cooler winters and with time the yield just dropped and probably became less quality fruit. So vineyards were the best solution and it's very successful and I think today there are so many new vineyards. I think probably the biggest holder of vines is probably Barcan in the Judain Hills.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:06

Oh, really In the.

Eran Pick MW: 29:07

Judane Hills, I think so. They have a few hundreds of dunams. Castel is one of the biggest, probably about I'm not sure about 400, 500 dunams. We have 200 dunams and there are medium-sized and small wineries that grow in the Judane Hills. This is what's. It's not like in the. You know, it's quite small patches of agriculture in the Judane Hills, a lot of forests, and how do you say Nadlan? I don't know.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:43

I'm sorry.

Eran Pick MW: 29:44

Real estate, real estate, okay, and real estate, you know. So real estate actually is the probably biggest challenger today, biggest competition, and some vineyards are being pulled off because of real estate. Wow yeah, because the city Jerusalem grows to the west. Yep, because the city Jerusalem grows to the west and some villages and towns are becoming bigger and bigger and some of the vines are pulled out because of that. But it's a fact in many places around the world.

S. Simon Jacob: 30:24

Tell me a little bit about the history of Tsora.

Eran Pick MW: 30:29

So Tsora celebrated 30 years last year.

Eran Pick MW: 30:33

We wanted to celebrate November 2023, but unfortunately, we had to postpone it because, of course, the 7th of October Ronnie James was a vineyard manager. He grew. He was a kibbutz member who grew grapes for Carmel. Carmel is the biggest co-op in Israel. Back then in the 80s I don't have the figures exactly probably about 80% or 70% went to Carmel from the Israeli vineyards and he was very interested in wine and late 80s he wanted to produce his own wine. So he started. First vintage was 93. He asked help from the most knowledgeable and famous Israeli enologist who already had his small winery, yair Margalit.

Eran Pick MW: 31:36

So in 93, yair Margalit helped him and actually there's a very interesting film that Eli Ben-Zaken, in 93, filmed of Roni's first harvest day of harvest Sauvignon Blanc in this winery. And I knew him as a wine lover in the mid-90s. He was a person that people referred to him as Dr Terroir because he talked about the importance of terroir in winemaking and he knew that from practice, not from books. He knew that different plots in the vineyard produce different quality of wine and different character of wine. So that's how we started.

Eran Pick MW: 32:23

It was a kibbutz winery, yes, and it's very hard to kind of establish a winery inside a kibbutz. To kind of establish a winery inside a kibbutz, you have too many bosses and you need a very long-term vision in order to succeed. And in 2006, when I came to the winery, it was the same year that Nathan Hevroni, the current owner of the winery, went and started to invest in the winery. He bought the winery from the kibbutz and with a vision to produce excellent wine from the Judean hills, to have a very good let's say a name for the Judean hills in Israeli wine. And, as you already mentioned, roni died in 2008, unfortunately, and since then we kind of have a continuous vision of producing wine that tells the story of the terroir of the Juden Hills.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:28

Is there anything different today? How have you put your mark on the winery from the time of?

Eran Pick MW: 33:35

Roni, it's funny For me. I always I rather other people, you know kind of comment or interpret the wines and trying to comment on the wine. What's different? Of course, of course there is differences in wine growing and technical knowledge from what we know today compared to what we only knew 20 years ago. It's totally different because for a few reasons First, the world changed. The world advanced, winemaking advanced. Second, we have more experience from the same place, which is very important. And third, we have more money to invest in knowledge and equipment in consulting Since 2010, we worked with Jean-Claude Berouet, who was the winemaker of Petrus, which brought so much knowledge into the winery of fine winemaking.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:45

Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, so you didn't know about that.

Eran Pick MW: 34:48

No, that's amazing. Yeah, so in 2010, I approached Jean-Claude Berouet, the head winemaker of Petrus. He started in Petrus in 64 and actually retired in 2007. 64 vintages, 44 vintages in Petrus. So I approached him and asked him to help us to produce world-class wines and I worked with him for many years. Today is 83. And I worked with him for many years Today is 83.

Eran Pick MW: 35:23

So, until COVID, he came to Israel and helped us grow the vineyard and think about how we can make the best wine possible and, of course, with the style that we're asking to produce elegant, interesting, complex, not too heavy wines. With the style that we're asking to produce Elegant, interesting, complex, not too heavy wines. And for me, it brought a lot of knowledge to my own winemaking. It was after Roni died already, but I think when you make wine from the same place for so many years, you make it differently, and it's not something that is special for Seurat. I'm sure that if you go to Victor Schoenfeld and ask him how different is the winemaking today and what you made 30 years ago, he will comment that it's quite different because he has much more knowledge, has much more knowledge.

S. Simon Jacob: 36:14

I'm interested in Shorish. It's amazing to me how segregated are each of the plots. What are some of the things that differentiate between the plots that are there? How did you? You know? I know you set it up with the different varietals? Yeah, and is Gortz now one of the whites?

Eran Pick MW: 36:35

Do you handle or do you?

S. Simon Jacob: 36:36

bring that from outside.

Eran Pick MW: 36:42

So we had a beautiful plot until a year ago. Wow, it was planted in 2000 and we need to replant it. Okay, so now we don't have it, but what we did is actually replant. We replanted a new plot that we had before. We had the Cabernet Sauvignon. We planted it with Riesling in order to make ore with Riesling. Hopefully, we'll have very small quantity this year, but next year we'll have a bigger quantity, because the first year you always get a very small quantity for a new plot. It was planted 2021, yes, right. And the different plots. Each plot has its own character. What makes it different? There are two. First of all, before I go into what makes it different, it's important to say that if someone doesn't believe in the concept of terroir, it just need he or she need to taste the same variety from two different plots and see that they taste very differently.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:07

From the same vineyard.

Eran Pick MW: 38:08

From the same vineyard, different plots and constantly, consistently, they have the character of the plot. So we have one plot called Haruv. Haruv is the name of a plot because there is a Haruv tree there and it's planted with Cabernet Sauvignon. It tastes quite differently from a plot that we called Nubanim, which is Foss is fossils plot, and they're only 20 meters away. How did that happen? What's the reason? It's a big, big question.

Eran Pick MW: 38:46

But we know that the vines gets from two big sources, gets all the elements. First source is the sun, through the leaves, gets the energy through photosynthesis. The other big source is from the roots, minerals and water. And that's why the soil is very important, because the soil holds all the elements the vine needs and it's a very complex matter. It could be the physical traits of the soil, the chemical traits, the mineral. There are about 17 minerals that the vine needs. Some of them are macroelements and microelements.

Eran Pick MW: 39:32

Different types of elements, different quantities, make a big difference in the character and quality of the grape. So if we have, let's say, if you're, very rich in nitrogen in one place, very poor in another place, it will make a big difference in the grape. And that's why wine tastes different from different plots, but it's not something that I can say. The reason fossil plot is so special and that's why we produce misty hills out of it. I cannot explain exactly what's special about a fossil plot, but I can say it has a north-facing aspect. It's on a slope, it's very rocky, it's quite shallow soil, the vines are in great balance without a lot of work on them. All this I can explain, but I cannot write the recipe. Why it's that?

S. Simon Jacob: 40:42

I'm going to ask you a silly question, almost silly question Is there a percentage? What's the percentage effort when you're making good wine between the vineyard practice, the fermentation and then the actual process of blending?

Eran Pick MW: 40:57

Yeah, it is. You know it's kind of a silly question, but not really a silly question. I remember reading Ronnie James' quotes on that and he said about 95% is vineyard, 5% is winery. I'm not sure you need a very good vineyard to make an excellent wine.

Eran Pick MW: 41:24

Without good grapes you can't make anything. That's true. But I tasted some very good wines from mediocre vineyards with very high skills of winemakers, very high skills, high-skilled winemakers, very high skills, high skilled winemakers. And wine is very important In the winery. You don't do a lot of work to make great wine.

Eran Pick MW: 41:46

I mean you know you ferment the grapes, but to know exactly when to press the grapes, not ringing the wine with too much oxygen during the aging process, not putting too much new oak to ruin the great fruit character of the wine, it's also very skilled winemakers. You need very skilled winemakers in the winemaking. Skilled winemakers. You need very skilled winemakers in the winemaking. And the more skilled you are, you learn to go away to go back from putting additional flavors on the wine, additional flavors like as new oak, right. But you are a very experienced wine drinker and you know that a lot of wines that come from great vineyards are not as tasty as you expect them to be. Because I would say, if I had to say I go away from Ronnie's answer and say that a very skilled winemaker and smart winemaker and knowledgeable winemaker will make better wine from mediocre wine than a mediocre winemaker will make from a great vineyard. Good point we make from a great vineyard, so I can't say exact percentage, but I tend to go through a skilled winemaker.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:22

You barrel age all the wines that you have, yeah, so what's a typical aging period of time?

Eran Pick MW: 43:29

It's quite boring. For red wine making, we do double sorting. For red wine making, we do double sorting. We do normal fermentations on the skins about two to three weeks and then we put in the barrel between 12 and 14 months. All of the wines we treat the plots the same way plus minus depends. Of course some plots can take higher percentage of new oak. Some plots will not take so much new oak because they're quite fragile.

Eran Pick MW: 44:07

And for the whites we do fermentation in barrels in three size formats the classic ones 20-25, 225 liters, 500 liters and 2000 liters what we call food. And after fermentation we leave the leaves, the dead yeast, in the wine and not disturb the wine until bottling. Only a few batonnages we do very little. One or two times lees steering and that's it. So the winemaking is quite I wouldn't say it's very work intensive. In the winery we don't move the wine a lot. For the reds we do only one rack and return. So not a lot of work in the wine. What's your production like In a normal year? It's 110,000 bottles a year. We're going to grow to maybe 140 because we keep on planting. Last planting was 2023, only 10 dunams or 11 dunams, but in 2025 we're going to plant another 20 dunams we planted.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:30

So how is this?

Eran Pick MW: 45:31

expanded. We have still a few plots that we have a few plots. We can grow up to 300 dunams easily.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:39

So we have one or more.

Eran Pick MW: 45:42

We're taking it quite slowly. We don't want to do everything at once. All of our growth is very conservative. We are not pushing ourselves too hard.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:59

So the focus is obviously on quality, not quantity, I think you know this sentence.

Eran Pick MW: 46:07

I think every winery in the world focuses on quality. Quality, I would say that. But when you grow at a certain size, you start to forget about production and the main problem is about sales. Once the main problem is about sales, you forget about the production. So everybody wants to produce the best wine in the world and very high quality wants to produce the best wine in the world and very high quality. But for me, growing too big for your ability is when you start focusing about sales. That's kind of the.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:48

for me, the key so you brought up before this winery in Madoque? Yeah, that's hugely exciting.

Eran Pick MW: 46:57

That's an incredible reach. I like to say in Hebrew that we threw ourselves into the pool and now we're looking if there is any water in it. It's a very exciting project, as we like to do it. We had a chance to make a label to be a flying winemaker, but it's not interesting to us. We start. We bought a very interesting estate in the Medoc region, 100 Dunams, which is a small Medoc region, and the terroir was very interesting.

Eran Pick MW: 47:38

I was looking for 40 or 50 different estates and that was the most interesting terroir. I tasted wine from the 70s and 80s and they made marvelous wine back then. And it's a big challenge because we were very fortunate that the previous owner stayed with us as the vineyard manager and is very knowledgeable. He's a very professional vineyard manager, so the vines are very healthy, the vineyard is greatly taken care of, greatly taken care of, and our job is to understand how we can make a great wine with our style, elegant wine from the Médoc in a sustainable way. It's very, very interesting. A lot of work, much more than I thought it would be. The French are very into bureaucracy, a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of different things we need to think about. The mildew danger is much higher there. There is a frost danger. To get into ripeness it's not very easy, but because the climate is different, the soil is different, it's very interesting to us to make wine in a different war.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:04

Are you facing any limitations being able to keep the Cru Bourgeois as a certification, as a classification?

Eran Pick MW: 49:13

I'll give you. How do you say the short story Scoop? How do you say the short story Scoop, scoop. How do you say scoop in?

Eran Pick MW: 49:20

English Scoop I get it yes, we're not going to keep the Gros Bourgeois Okay, because we can. We can. When I started to get into the wine business in the 90s not the business, but loving wine Gros Bourgeois was very important. I think today it lost a lot of its importance. We're not going to get into classification, we just want to understand the best wine possible from Arte Au Roi. So we don't want any limitation.

Eran Pick MW: 49:56

Of course we're going to grow there, as now, cabana, sauvignon and Merlot. We're not going to grow Syrah very soon, maybe one day, I don't know but we're going to make a wine that is under the state's, the Chateau's, name and just trying to see how we can because, as anyone knows, bordeaux is facing a lot of difficulties in selling wine. It's making too much wine, but the wine there is so great. Bordeaux wines are really, really great and once we make a very good wine, I'm sure we can be successful. It's going to be a long journey. I don't expect it to be very easy, but I'm very optimistic. It's something that will keep us busy for the next 20 years, for sure.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:46

I love Golan as well. I love his wines. Look for me… Both of you make such elegant wines.

Eran Pick MW: 50:55

For me it's all about the people. You know, it's Golan and Dan, the other winemaker of Zora. We just came back from Bordeaux last week. Just a great experience. I mean. I think wine is about people. When you're working with great people, when you're drinking with great people, wine is just a way, you know, it's just a vehicle to get to know great people and to talk with great people and to meet great people. As my first experience in the Mosul Valley I think I was lucky to meet during my first visit in 96, great people. They said, wow, beautiful, beautiful vineyards. Great people. They said, wow, beautiful vineyards, great people, tasty wine, let's go into this business. So for me, making wine in Bordeaux region with people I don't like is not a possibility. It's the only way to enjoy the way and to make great wine is loving the people you're working with.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:00

It's the same thing about drinking wine the drinking wine. Especially now, with a group of people who have really come together from all over the world within the kosher wine segment, it's become awesome yeah, it's become an awesome experience. It's become an awesome experience. Is there any facts that customers should know about the winery here that you know that they just don't see or they just pass over for?

Eran Pick MW: 52:31

me, and if people love the wine and love again the people that enjoy drinking the wine and love the people that drinking the wine with and the people of the winery, for me it's enough. I'm not too keen about too many facts and we don't even say the exact grape percentage that we make the wine, or too much winemaking facts, because for me it's too boring, it's not very important. It's not about recipes. It's about hopefully believing that the team is doing everything it can to make the best wine possible each year, and in certain years it's quite, let's say, easy. Like 2022 is a very beautiful year. In some years it's quite difficult. Like 2021 was too hot and very harsh.

Eran Pick MW: 53:35

How was 2020 for you? 2023 for me is in between 2020. 2020 for me is a very good year Quite fruity, very balanced, not very mineral, but a lot of balance. 2023? 2023 is something between 2021 and 2022. 2022 was very light and aromatic. 2021 was very concentrated and deep. 2023 is something in between. I'm not sure how it came out. The reds the whites are already in the market, but the reds will start the blending process only in a few weeks, so I'm not sure, but I think it's going to be an okay year. It's not going to be the greatest, but that's what we do in life. I mean, we're trying to understand each vintage, the character. Our work is to make the best wine possible.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:32

Thank you.

Eran Pick MW: 54:32

Thank you very much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:34

It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it, thank you. Thank you very much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure, I really appreciate it.

Eran Pick MW: 54:38

Thank you for talking to me and asking. No, it's a pleasure and of course it's I love your whites.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:43

Thank you very much. Your 2023 whites. I love them Even more than the 2022s. I really love them. Thank you very much. Yeah, pleasure Great. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terwa. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes and thank you for listening to the Kosher Term.