FirstGenFM
Advocacy and Resilience: Zach Desjardins' Impact on First-Generation Education
Meet Zach Desjardins, a first-generation student turned holistic academic advisor at the University of Albany. His story, from almost losing his college dreams due to financial aid errors to finding his way through with the Upward Bound program, is the embodiment of resilience, determination, and dedication.
In our engaging conversation, we explore the quintessential role of support systems for first-generation students, and Zach provides an intimate look at how he has leveraged his own experiences to advocate for others. He's not just a voice; he's a mover and shaker, instrumental in developing first-gen programming and establishing a first-gen office at UAlbany. He opens up about family achievement guilt, the power of mentorship, and the importance of having allies in one's journey.
As we delve deeper, Zach shines a light on the often overlooked challenges first-gen students face in balancing their identities with their academic aspirations. He shares valuable insights into how advisors can remind students of their worth and capabilities. We also touch on the power of social capital and the importance of family involvement in these discussions.
This episode with Zach is a treasure trove of knowledge and understanding, whether you're a first-gen student, an educator, or anyone who's curious about the first-gen community. It's more than just a conversation; it's a journey towards empowerment and understanding.
Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!
You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
Meet Zach Desjardins, a first-generation student turned holistic academic advisor at the University of Albany. His story, from almost losing his college dreams due to financial aid errors to finding his way through with the Upward Bound program, is the embodiment of resilience, determination, and dedication.
In our engaging conversation, we explore the quintessential role of support systems for first-generation students, and Zach provides an intimate look at how he has leveraged his own experiences to advocate for others. He's not just a voice; he's a mover and shaker, instrumental in developing first-gen programming and establishing a first-gen office at UAlbany. He opens up about family achievement guilt, the power of mentorship, and the importance of having allies in one's journey.
As we delve deeper, Zach shines a light on the often overlooked challenges first-gen students face in balancing their identities with their academic aspirations. He shares valuable insights into how advisors can remind students of their worth and capabilities. We also touch on the power of social capital and the importance of family involvement in these discussions.
This episode with Zach is a treasure trove of knowledge and understanding, whether you're a first-gen student, an educator, or anyone who's curious about the first-gen community. It's more than just a conversation; it's a journey towards empowerment and understanding.
Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!
You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
Hi and welcome to First Gen FM, a podcast for educators who want to learn more about serving, working with, celebrating first generation college bound and college students. From Zach, I am so happy to have you here today. I'm here with Zach Desjardins, who is a holistic academic advisor at SUNY Albany and is definitely a dedicated first gen advocate, and I'm really excited to talk to him today about a presentation he did at NACADA, which is the academic advising conference, about breaking barriers, empowering resilience, overcoming family achievement guilt with first gen students, and I know, zach, you're going to have a lot to share about that and the research you looked into and your own journey, so I always like to start with that. So tell us about your journey and especially, what was the spark that got you into higher ed and wanting to be an advisor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is a very long story, so I'll try to keep it short. And I tell that to everyone the first time it actually really started actually was in ninth grade. I remember I was in Mrs Falls class. She was my English teacher in high school and I remember she was like hey today we have a special guest who's going to come in and talk to you, so we had this one lady who came in. Her name was Julie Koon. Shout out to Julie Koon, I miss you.
Speaker 2:Julie Koon's explained about the summer program called Upward Bound and it was an issue where people would actually go through the summer, take some classes, you know, go on these trips, go out on this excursion, all those kind of cool things. And I remember she shows us it's awesome being like, wow, that sounds so cool, you know. And at that time I never really thought that if I wanted to go to college or now I was still kind of like up in the air. I always liked history, so I kind of want to be like a history professor. I was really in touch with my faith as well. So I was like maybe I'll go into youth ministry, maybe I'll do that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And then when it happened, julie's like talking about all this cool program that people do over the summer, and I remember she said that fancy kids phrase that like even Sylvesterings in my bed head today if she always said, guess how much this program cost? And I remember just like raising my hand and said something like maybe like $10,000. You know what I mean. And she was like nope. And then someone else gets another one like $100,000. And she's like nope. And then eventually it came to me and, backing out, I'm like could it happen to be free.
Speaker 2:And she's like guess it's actually free. I'm like no way. I told my parents about this program. Once again they said, oh. Zach, that sounds great but it's probably too much money. We can't afford this. I grew up in a very small town. My family came from modest means, so my family didn't make a lot of money. I had two older siblings as well, and so I didn't grow up the most wealthiest family around, and so because of my parents' anxiety that we're going to have to turn you down.
Speaker 2:we can't afford this. Like no, mom, it's actually free. And I'm like no way. I'm like no, it is free. And my mom was like, okay, well, I guess we'll have to try to fill it out. So my mom and dad filled up the application. We went through.
Speaker 2:A couple of months later I got a letter in the mail saying congratulations, zachary Deja, and I thought you're going to be a participant of the upper SUNY Plastic Upper Bound program. Nice, love it. And I tell people even to this day those became the best summers of my life, even to this day. My current roommate is one of my best friends, who I met in Upper Bound, who I love dearly. And so, long story short, I went through it. I went to the program, I loved it. I even became a bridge, which is basically what they called the bridge from high school to college. You know what I mean. So you get to take a college, classes, things like that, all those fun things.
Speaker 2:And then this is when the real part of my story comes in. I remember I applied for a school out in West Chilay, new York, which is like right outside of Rochester, all ready to go. It's like a week or four classes start. You know I'm ready to say goodbye to my dad and my mom, and my dad says something along the lines of you're all good, right. And I'm like what do you mean? He's like you're all set, like you don't have to worry about anything, everything's fine. You know, because you're a little hesitant and eventually I'm like I think so he's like you should probably call just to make sure. And unfortunately I made that phone call and I found that that older college, a large school, I had some money due to financial aid error and so talking to them, I realized I can't go to school. You know what I mean. Even just talking to them, they're like well, can't your parents just take it alone? I'm like they claim bankruptcy. You know. I mean they can't afford this. You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean and I said well, what do I need to pay the bill by? And they said preferably within the first few weeks of college. I'm like I can't find a job in a new area plus pay for that and figure this all Like I don't know. So I remember I was like I'll call you back and figure out what I'm going to do. So I'm going to call my dad. I broke my parents both the news. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 2:I felt a lot of guilt, a lot of shame. I feel like I wasted all my time, felt my summers in high school by going up or down. I feel like I wasted people's money to help support me to do this and I didn't end up doing it. You know what I mean. And my dad said well, you know what? Just because it's a goal you still have doesn't mean it has to be lost forever. You know what I mean To still hold on this goal that you have and eventually, eventually, a workout.
Speaker 2:Obviously, at that time I didn't take my dad's words literally, which I wish I should have, but I did it. So I ended up calling back saying you know, I'm going to take some time off, I'm not going to go to your school, I'm going to withdraw my name, so, but that's what we're going to do now. So I said, well, I guess it's time to look for work, I guess, and just be like the same thing that my parents would do Go every single day, work nine to five, you know what I mean Good old job, and I applied to a job at.
Speaker 2:Sam's Club where I used to work in the meat department, so I helped to wrap. I was a meat wrapper but I also was a meat cutter Once a while. I got some of these. I got the benefit of actually cutting meat whenever there was someone off, so I did that for a whole time. I remember Brian post, who was the director of upper bound at that time, kept on trying to call me, trying to reach me, being like hey, zach, are you going to college? How's college? Like? I kept on trying to avoid his calls as far away as I can Until one day he actually came in to Sam's Club, actually going shopping with his family, and he's like hey Zach, what are you doing here?
Speaker 1:What are you doing here?
Speaker 2:He's like aren't you supposed to be in college Now? About that? And he's like, well, before you say anything, what are you doing next Thursday? And I remember on my oh, I have off. He's like, cool, we're gonna grab some lunch, we're gonna talk, we'll work it out. I think Brian knew what happened here and so he was like we ended up getting lunch at this place called Zooks deli, which is a little small deli in sandwich shop that was near the college. I'm having lunch with him and Brian. That talk.
Speaker 2:Brian really helped instill that hey, you can still do this. Like just because it didn't happen this semester doesn't mean it will ever happen. You know what I mean. He helped ground me, really give me that purpose. That why and I remember just telling Brian, like this is just now fair, like you know what I mean, like I really want to go to college. Like why is it that I have to work twice as hard to just succeed? You know what I mean. And Brian's like well, it's gonna be something that's gonna happen. You know what I mean, it just happens in life. But like you're gonna be able to overcome this. So, along the shirt, shirt, flat, forward we have.
Speaker 2:A couple of weeks later we applied to Sturney Plattsboro, which was like my second home anyway, because my mom worked at the college where she worked with people at Al's Emerson Developmental Disabilities. So I knew that college back and forth. You know back in my hand when they say and I applied, I got in and I would do what's going to be a history teacher. I'm like, ooh, really love this. And I remember one time I was talking to my advisor at the time who was actually within TRIOS and support services, hi and I went to her and I was like you know, I don't think I can do this anymore.
Speaker 1:Like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like I don't want to be a history professor. Like you know what I mean. I feel like there's just so much going on with our education system in this country and I opened up about my story and how it took me. I took a year off and I started talking about this and said, well, why don't you just change it? What? What complain about when you just do something about it? And I was like I can, like you know what I mean, and I said yeah.
Speaker 1:And so so long story search.
Speaker 2:You told me about the degree of student affairs, higher education administration. You know what I mean and I realized that's what I want to do. I really want to work and I want to help support for student college students. You know, be that advocate, be that voice. I really want to work in like eventually I want to work in policy and that kind of side of things. But for right now I would really love to learn to understand the system, learn about the system. What are some of the common challenges, the barriers that they're facing? What are some common things that they're experiencing? Things like that.
Speaker 2:So I got really immersed in undergrad. I got involved with so many different things. It's kind of hard to even remember what I got involved with because it was a lot of different things, everything from starting a story of life, housing, residence life, career development, you know, alumni association, a bunch of different things. I'm like, oh, I love this, I love higher ed, I love this lanes, because I love how it's like a giant playground. You know what I mean. So I ended up. What I ended up doing is I ended up applying for a school in Bighampton University where he did a dual masters in public administration and student affairs administration and I said the rest is pretty much history. I got my first job post grad in this spring of 2020, as we all know, the before times.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I worked at trio since port services for six months. Love that job, love every minute of it. And unfortunately we found out the grant wasn't going to get renewed, so I ended up losing my job in my last semester at grad school, but thankfully, you all but he was hiring people for a.
Speaker 2:They want an academic advisor, but I wanted people to focus more on a four year advising model, more of a holistic advisor, and so I applied for it and me, along with a bunch of other people, got offered the job.
Speaker 2:You know and I've been there ever since and since then, like you said, I've been a huge advocate for first-hand students I realized that within the first few weeks of even starting at UAlbany that like hey, this is a big gap we have in our service here. We need to have more people are going to be more rooting for this population. There really isn't much on this campus besides the state. They're already standard programs like EOP, which educational opportunity program, or project itself like C-STEP, things like that. So I was like you know what I actually want to pave a way and help support more first-hand students that work my office, kind of get our name out there and make these students feel welcome, because I knew COVID through a wrench in a lot of different populations but it really hit first-hand students really hard. So I was in the center of them working, trying to build connection with the campus officials and other campus partners and try to really support this population moving forward, and now I'm here talking to you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's really you paying it back and paying it forward at the same time, because you had, you know, brian in your corner who was continually reaching out to you, even though you didn't really want to talk to him because you felt sort of guilty and bad about that. But then he was like nah, we're having lunch and we're going to work around this, because you're going to college and then part of the TRIO program to also support you. And now here you are, you know, working with the same students who had the same background as you to support them. Does Albany have a first gen center or first gen programming?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do now, but I know we're actually trying to get. We actually just started this year trying to actually start and get like more first gen programming. It's actually now going to an office.
Speaker 2:So this year for I know, because I know national first gen college student celebration is coming up on November 8th- so I actually partnered up with another colleague on my which is fun fact I've actually known her since undergrad and we became we also do each other in grad school. We went to Binghamton and now she works at UAlbany. So now we decided, hey, why don't we do something for first gen college student celebration day? So we're going to actually have a big event on that day that her and I actually worked out and I even helped actually find a group. I'm actually with a faculty advisor to the first gen student union that we actually have at UAlbany. So I'm going to be a partner with that group to actually get things going and kind of get that name out. So, like I said, it's been crazy out of the past three years since I've been here, just how much we've been involved in it.
Speaker 2:Even now, first gen and college students are actually now part of the conversation before they weren't necessarily part of the conversation, but now they're starting to come out of the conversation, not just due to my work, but several other people that I've partnered up with are people I've worked with in some of the different capacities. The conversation is now being had, and I think that's what's great, because I can't wait to see its steam roll into something even bigger than ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that grassroots effort to bring people together to uplift the students and kind of help the university realize their strengths but also their challenges, so that they have the support they need to do amazing things. I mean, that's what I feel like that once you give them the support, you connect them with resources, then you just watch all the incredible things that they do as they fully integrate with the university. So, love that, love that, love that. So you were doing some research and you said you're part of a Facebook group and we were talking beforehand that about family achievement guilt. And somebody said, oh, there's a lot of research out there and you're like I'm diving into this, and then you created a presentation. Tell me about that. Why did that resonate with you and why did you decide to take that research and then make it into a presentation for Nakata?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So actually I'm going to backtrack a little bit, if that's okay. So one of the things I do on campus, I've actually teach a uni 99, which is a zero credit freshman year experience course, like freshman semifinals, and I teach that for first-gen students. So I've been helping actually, this semester I've actually been the one leading the efforts. In the previous semesters I've been either co-leading or just supporting the class in any way I possibly could.
Speaker 2:One day I was actually in charge of the class. We were talking about well-being and one of my students stood up and so I was asking how everything was going and somebody were like, oh, things are going well. Some people are like, oh, things are all right. And one student I remember, as they, stood up and like, hey, I have something I want to talk about and I said, okay, well, what's going on? And they said you know what, like I feel like when I come to college, I have to sacrifice part of who I am just to succeed, and then when I go back home, I have to shut up when I'm gaining college just depending on my family.
Speaker 2:And then, when I come back to college you know I'm just a walking show how do you expect to retain me as someone who works in a college if I don't even know who I am anymore? Wow, and I was like, oh my God, that's crazy. And they're like, no, did you experience this? Because they knew I was a first-year graduate myself. And I was like, well, I don't know. And then I, just as I'm saying this out loud, it just dawned on me. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I remember the times when I would go home and I love my parents. My parents have been extremely supportive, but even just little things like, hey, zach, you sound different. Oh, there was a time, when I talk about my presentation, when my dad was in the hospital. You know what I mean. My parents was also on the verge of losing their home. You know what I mean, because my dad was out but he couldn't work and my mom was just trying to help try to catch up on the bills. You know what I mean. And I remember my sister, you know which. We made peace now, but back then she basically would say something along the lines like, well, don't you care about your family? Like you know what I mean. You, I feel you just took the easy way out. Yeah, things like that. Right, because you left Exactly and she didn't understand what I was going through when it came to classes. You know what I mean and what that was like and how. You just can't just make an excuse to leave class. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:They always are like a week behind in your schoolwork, things like that. So hearing that from the student, oh my gosh, this is, this is crazy. You know what I mean. And then one of my co-presenters, shannon Sue, shout out to Shannon love Shannon. We were trying to, we wanted to do a presentation but we didn't know what to present on. And she's very much into like she loves her students, but she really is more focused on like holistic well-being, mental health, things like that, and I want to do something. That was a topic that necessarily then doesn't really talk about much. You know what I mean, right?
Speaker 2:I want to like an emerging topic. You know what I mean. Like this doesn't be mind-blowing, but it has to be something that like we don't really talk about this much. So let's actually dive into that. And especially when it comes to part of the first students to experience, we don't necessarily like think about and we were talking about back and forth.
Speaker 2:And then I remember, right after I heard that student, I went home from the day I really called Shannon, like Shannon, I have our topic. Wow, you know what I mean. And she was like what? And I'm like hear me out. And I explained it to her and she just goes oh my gosh, that's great.
Speaker 2:Is there a research on this? I'm like I don't know. I'll figure it out. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so I'm in a post in this group where this basically group that has a lot of other first gen focused professionals. It's like, hey, does anyone know if any of this research exists? Is there anything within this category? And a bunch of people actually kind of this one woman who was actually talking about the group. Her name is Dr Karubias. I apologize. I apologize in advance, karubias, but yeah, karubias, thank you, yes, rebecca, amazing, and thank you so much for correcting me on that, jen, I appreciate it. Oh, sure, yeah. And so she's like oh, you should check out her research. And I remember I just looked through the research and I'm like, go to page after page after page and I feel like it was like a therapy session because I literally was shedding tears, I was crying, I was like, oh my God, that's me, you know what I mean Like I feel seen, I feel heard, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And I remember I called Jen. I'm like Jen, I got the research, so I listened to her. She went through the same set of emotions. You know what I mean. There was even times when Jen and I were even putting together the presentation. Things got a little heated because it was like it was really personal, you know what I mean. So we're just so, we're trying to think of what to put in the presentation and not to put in the presentation. And then we had times when I'm like, oh, jen, I'm so sorry, it just is just really personal to me and so it's like really hard to kind of separate.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean the basically the professional, but also the personal, because this is such a topic we both relate to in two different ways. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yes, it turns out, I think that's why we need to give this presentation. You know what I mean. So I remember we created like a slight template of presentation. I actually reached out to Dr Rebecca you know what I mean Herself and I was like, hey, do you mind if we actually present about this at a region one conference? You know what I mean and I want to go through my presentation. I want for your feedback, like, do you think we got what you wanted to say? Is there anything else you think people should say as well? And, like I said, I went through the presentation with her. I talked to her about, she gave me the thumbs up, she even gave me some additional stuff that she's been working on. Wow, I wanted to come back to the presentation and I was just like man and she's like thank you so much for actually talking about this. Like this is huge.
Speaker 2:And I said I felt the reason why I wanted to do this, because I feel whenever I went to a first-gen presentation, I always feel like they're like what's issues first-gen students face and it's guilt and it's just a bullet and that's it. And they move on. Yeah, and I was like you really thought you could summarize this whole phenomenon, this social, emotional experience and just a bullet. You know what I mean. I'm like we have to do more than that, and so let's move beyond the bullet. And so that's when Sharon and I did this and we were presenting the Cata region one in person, and we just got tons of great people come present to us. But, oh my God, like this, I finally feel heard, I feel seen.
Speaker 2:We had two people in the audience who knew each other from a previous institution. One was actually a student at the time. The other one was the advisor and she's like, this advisor actually helped me process through this and stuff without even realizing it. You know what I mean. We had like a golden nugget, I call it. You know what I mean At that moment. You know so many of people we interact with. You've explained something to me that I've experienced my whole entire life and I didn't even know I was going through it until you talked about it.
Speaker 1:Right. So it took that student to sort of bring it up in the class and then you recognized your own journey with that. Yeah, and having done that, you found the research. I love that you reached out to Rebecca Kuberubius to talk to her about her research and not just to share what you wanted to share, to see, like, is this what you were talking about? Did I review your research correctly? But that she also was the synergy of it, where she gave you other information that she was working on that maybe hadn't been published yet. That went along with what you were sharing, so that you could have even more robust background and research and evidence to share what you were doing.
Speaker 1:I that's just. That's brilliant, and I think the first gen community is so like that that people want to get together to help the students and are willing to share what they're doing, just like you're doing now. So thanks to you for doing that, and it doesn't surprise me at all that it resonated with people, because this is something that is not just a bullet point, this achievement guilt, this going away. I heard somebody called it a liminality, which I really liked, which is basically the way they described it. As you know, as a student.
Speaker 1:You're standing in the threshold of a doorway and it's like are you in the room? Well, yes. Are you out of the room? Well, yes, cause you're in. You're just in the middle there. And so our students are struggling, challenged by trying to answer questions about who they are when they're on that threshold in the two different worlds, and who they are and how they feel about that, and so I'm sure that that brought up a lot for the folks you were talking to. So tell me what were some of the aha moments for you when you looked at the research and that you and Shannon, your co-presenter, made sure to share with the group you were presenting to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was like one of the main themes for me. It was one of those like becoming different, like we kind of talked about before, like I would often hear things from my family like hey, you sound different, or you're not the same person as I would know, or you're now starting to care about this topic which you never used to talk about. And I remember even securing those things like through the research. You know what I mean, like reading it said, like Sue Austin said, like I feel different from my parents. You know what I mean. Or like financial obligations, like I can't indulge in opportunities. You know what I mean? Because I have to go to school and that's my main objective is go to school.
Speaker 2:My whole first year in college, when I was working 40, 50 hours a week, you know, at Sam's Club, you just don't afford to go to college. You know what I mean. I didn't get a chance to kind of be like, oh, I want to join a club, I want to join an orchestra. I looked at as me indulging in those things and those were like extra things. You know what I mean. Those are things that I couldn't partake in. You know what I mean? Because I was paying for college. You know what I mean and so things like that. So that was really hard for me. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think it was just understanding, like, my identity.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like where do I kind of fit? You know what I mean? Like one time I was actually one of my students, even just this past semester, and they said it's crazy how the place that felt so strange feels most like home. But the place that felt most like home now feels so strange and I was like wow, and that's the only room. I felt that, like you know what I mean. I felt like I was so immersed in the world of college you know what I mean and all those great opportunities but when I went home, things felt different, or things were changing as they should, because I was changing. But now, understanding that connection, you know what I mean and I think that's something too, as Rebecca told me too, and I really appreciate when she said this. But she literally said it's like the hard part about this whole thing is that, like you just can't cure this. You know what I mean. It's not something that you could just do and like okay, there you go, that's it.
Speaker 1:You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean so many people experience within their whole entire life. You know what I mean and, if you don't mind, I'll like to shout out my supervisor, michael Jiru. I remember when it was like the second week on my job that parents were going through some struggles financially about their house and things like that. I remember I told Michael like Mike, I just want to say thank you so much for this job offer. This has been great, but I really got to go. I have to get another job close to home because my family's struggling and I can't do this job. You know what I mean and I remember the conversation with him and I literally had in his office. He just was like hey, zach, this is why you're here. You know what I mean. This is why we want you here, because you know what this feels like. You know what I mean. You can go back home, that's fine.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to stop you, but I want you to stop and think for a moment. We hired you because you're going through something that many of our other students go through and they don't know who to talk to. You're here because you have such a skill set and a value and you're an asset to our office and you don't even see it, because this is only your second week here. But I can guarantee you you're going to blossom and you're going to grow. You're going to become a fierce advocate for a population that never really doesn't really get talked about. Often here, looking back on it, I laugh. But I'm not doing that to him. I know that I cry. You know what I mean. He's like oh my God, this guy, like he truly cares about me and I never realized that those are the same efforts that I need to hear from him. At that moment, usually he stopped everything he did, dropped me and said I need to talk to you because you don't see your worst, so I'm going to help you see your worst for you.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Yes, that's beautiful. You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think as advisors, as folks working with first gen students, so much of what we do is reminding the students of how amazing they are and how worthy they are, how much they belong at the institution that they're at, and giving their belief back, because they forget, I think they get beaten down by so many of the other things that are going on around them that are not necessarily in their control, and what we can do is say you know, you're in the right place right now. You can do this and we're here to help, support you. And let's talk about how we can do that, and I love that you had a supervisor who sat you down and was willing to say that with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too and that's on the other two, and I even mentioned this too in the presentation as well is like these students, and I want to just say they bring so much inherent value to our institutions and, other than that, they bring so much inherent value to our job.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like I remember at the end of the class I remember this last past semester because it's only an eight week course I didn't tell them thank you so much, this has been great. And one of my students was like no, thank you for everything you've done and all your own, the wisdom you've parted on us. And then I get back to them and I said, well, I want to thank every single one of you and I literally looked at every single one of them because you remind me of my why every single day I go to work. One of my bosses says one thing he told me is that I love about you is because you're a wide guide throughout everything you do. And that is the background.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's something that has to be Like my identity as a first-year student, college graduate, you know, I see every single day in my job.
Speaker 2:It's one of those parts of my identity. When I work with another first-year student, you know what I can't help but remember when Zach was in that seat, too, terrified of the world, didn't know how to talk to someone, but he was going through. So I said because of that, like I tell myself, you give me my why every single day and I'm thankful to be in a job that gives me those little reminders of why I do what I do and I'm so thankful for that and I was like really, I'm like yeah, I even told that to one of my students the other day. I'm like thank you for reminding me why I do this job. They do because if it wasn't for you, I don't know. Man, like I thank you. You know what I mean. That's the greatest gift you can give someone is give them their why and give them your time and give them your patience and help them work through those things.
Speaker 1:Right, and then we get a lot out of it too, because it's very fulfilling for us, Exactly. So let me go back to the research a little bit and back to the presentation that you did. What were some of the things that you found resonated with the audience? What kind of when you presented, or what things resonated with you as you were preparing your presentation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's more just reaffirming to allow people to codify something that people necessarily go through, or even what their students go through that they don't even realize, like I tell people. For instance, when I went through my advisor, when I was going through Gail, I wasn't saying I am guilty.
Speaker 2:Help me fix this. I was saying other things People who are going through this. They're going through these range of emotions or the social, emotional experience, but don't know how to define it or feel like they're alone. So I think that was the part that really resonated with me, but also resonated with the audience of things we've been hearing from a lot of people. It's not like, wow, you literally codified something that I've been struggling with my whole life, throughout undergrad, even in my professional career, but I had no idea I was going through this and this actually was a thing until you mentioned it.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the things that you brought up to like? How can I recognize, maybe, if a student is feeling that guilt but isn't able to articulate it that way. What should I be looking for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always tell people dig deeper, ask questions. So when a student goes through something, my dad went to the hospital. That would say. Similar situations would be like what's your relationship with your father? How close are you with your father? Ask them those kind of questions. Ask them well, why don't you feel you can take advantage of the opportunities? You know what I mean On campus. You know what I mean. What's holding you back? Is it the time you don't have? You know what I mean. Do you feel like you're indulging in those opportunities? Can you not afford those opportunities? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think another thing too, I tell people too as well, is unmask the hidden curriculum, make the hidden curriculum known. The hidden curriculum is a huge thing that unveils our whole institution and for people to know what that is, it's basically these social norms, these expectations, these hidden rules that kind of perpetuate our institutions. And so I can tell people to say make those things known, don't assume anything. First of all, don't assume, just because you have a first-generation college student across your desk that they need help. They don't know a knee-jump, would they like some help? Sure, that's another thing too, but don't necessarily need your help.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Say it like I said. Don't assume what they know and what they don't know. You know what I mean. So ask them those questions like hey, do you know? If you have trouble financially, you know, go to your financial aid office. You know what I mean. Do those things. I tell people what I kind of do in my practice. I'm so they'll owe my students for guards, for their first gender or not. It just normalize the process of explaining things.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that.
Speaker 2:Because, at the end of the day, the problem is what you do is you have a student who definitely doesn't know One? You get that to know Two. What's come the worst? They get to know a second time you know, that's the worst.
Speaker 2:I can ever, but it also practices you to practice this new norm. I think when we work in education, things are meant to be changed. There's one thing my fraternity brothers actually joke around with me about is I think I would say traditions are meant to be broken. I hate traditional traditions. Sometimes Some good traditions are good but, like sometimes we need to reevaluate our traditions, reevaluate our processes, always reevaluate ourselves, you know, understand our social positioning as people and how that looks in different kind of environments that we're in, and evaluate our practices to better support those students. Which is why I say normalize the process, talk to students, explain what the process is like. One thing I did before when I actually had this job is I tried to make connections with people in different offices. I actually had to get to know certain individuals.
Speaker 2:So when I actually talk to those students, I'm like hey, talk to Zach in academic advising.
Speaker 2:Right, not an office, yeah, a person, not an office, but a person. Yeah, exactly, and go through what Zach's going to ask you, go through with the process of what that's going to look like. Go troubleshoot some issues. I know some people hate role playing but sometimes you have to role play those situations with these students Right, because the more information they have, the more they don't necessarily feel like an imposter and they don't feel like they're in church and in some else's space. So do those things. So I said definitely normalizing the process. Don't assume everything is known and there's any that's not known or anything. You may think that, ooh, maybe they don't know. Just tell them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excuse me, I have the idea of explaining everything because, even if it is repetitive, repetition helps learning and there's a lot of research out there that people need to hear things multiple times before they really learn it.
Speaker 1:And I love the idea of even if, if you can role play, that's great. But even just talking to students about what kinds of questions do you think you're going to ask or what are you thinking about, and then that gets them going and they're like oh, I really do have questions to ask. I can go in and I can sit down and I know what it is. I'm trying to get out of this meeting and that gives them such a sense of I have the self advocacy I can do this. I love the repetition because it's not just first gen students Exactly, but the universities are big, complex places and by explaining how things work and who to talk to and when and what you might want to think about, that helps everybody.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and that's one thing I tell people and I love so much about that working with first gen students and populations, because first gen students are not a monolith. We come from all different walks of life, all different backgrounds, all different socioeconomic, racial, ethnic, sexual orientations, all that type of stuff. So, because of all those great things, if you're busy, normalize those processes, are you do the best impact practice for first gen students? It's only going to benefit all your students anyway. Right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So if you just develop, that normalcy you know what I mean Like we talk about all the time. Develop those habits of practice that you have, because if you have a student who's not a first gen student come across your desk and you do those same things, that's only going to benefit them as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and students talk to each other. But the more we educate students, the more they have the accurate knowledge to share with each other. So it's just this wonderful giving cycle, I think.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah, it's beautiful yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we're kind of running out of time so I want to make sure that. Is there anything else you want to share? So you're listening and you're working with a high school college bound student, or you're listening and you're a college advisor or someone working with the first gen students. Zach, what do you say to us about, like what are some ideas about how high school students, how high school students can think about this, maybe even before they get to college, or kind of conversations they might be able to have with their family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing I wish I tell people is be intentional with all your conversation with these students. You know, be intentional like you know. Be really like you know talk to them about it. You know, engage with them. You know me Talk to them. What are some assumptions you have about college, what are some of your fears about going to college? What do you assume is going to be said before some of what kind of things you're assuming that's going to happen in college? You know, I mean I try to tell my students early on it's just in my uni 99 is that, like the things that you're learning in your classes, that only makes up 10% of what you're going to take away from college. You know, I mean, the main learning you're going to learn is the things that are going to happen outside the classroom.
Speaker 2:It's going to be like you failed your first test, you know I mean. How do you come back from that? How do you talk to a professor about trying to boost up your grade?
Speaker 2:You know how do you talk to financial aid when you realize you have $3,000 balance? Those are going to be the most of the things you're going to learn more for anything. So I tell people, I tell my students that all the time is that like, know those things, you know. I mean that, yes, learning the things in your classes is super important. You should really focus on that. But just be aware that most of your students are going to have to be aware of what's going to happen outside the classroom. It's going to be the wrestling with yourself yourself more year when you're like who am I anymore?
Speaker 2:you know, I mean this is not the same person I thought I was, you know, or you're going to come back home for break for the first time. You know, how do you actually even have those conversations? You went like high school students, so I used to basically work an upper bound. Because I've got to work back at upper bound as a tutor, counselor and that was basically one of the more of a role that someone had in high school. So I said, just listen to them, talk to them. You mean, I think so many times we kind of disregard like high school students and like we're like, oh, they're just called their teenagers, you know. I mean they're just all over the place. You know, I'm not going to be a teacher, but I someone who I actually studied a lot of like psychology. When it comes to teenagers, just listen to them. Don't listen to them what they're telling you. Look at their body language.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean, look, at what, not what, not what they're telling you, but also what are they not telling you is also really important as well. You know the process of college, you know. I mean you know, like I said, the fast of. You know in New York State we have a thing called tap. You know which is twisted program. You know I could help a lot of people. You know how, about what's an unsub and versus a subsize one, what's the difference? You know. I mean, connect them with people. You know who. You know. You know, I mean, if you know they're going to a certain college, you have, like another student, go in there, maybe try to connect those two if they're going to a certain college. That's also a great to.
Speaker 2:I think I'm having that social capital at such a younger age is super important. Unfortunately, a lot of first-rate and college who may not have that social capital but kind of play around with you know. So I think things like that you know, outline the experience to them. Tell me what's a syllabus. You know what's it like. You know what's your academic advisor. Like you know, I mean, somebody called me a guidance counselor, even though I'm kind of like a guy that's going to my role, I'm not going to tell you that's how I have make it, but I'm not really a guy counselor either, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, explain those things. You mean I think, just all of those, and just let them know, like, hey, like you know, the journey about their undertaker is going to be a very hard and maybe very difficult, maybe challenging. But like, guess what, you're tougher, you're harder, you know you're built from this path. You know, I mean you may not realize this, but I guess you're going to get there, so the hard is worth it. Exactly, and just let them know to like there's not just one a plus be equal, see. Or one plus one equals to. There's many different avenues that can go across. It can still lead you to the same destination. You want to go on. You just got to be willing to have that open mind, you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean, it's funny. I was just doing a presentation on what I call power skills, not soft skills, because I think they're way more powerful than that.
Speaker 1:And I was talking about how it's. Nothing is really a ladder anymore. It's more like a jungle gym and there's different, different paths for you to get to the top of the jungle gym that you can. You can do some creating and figuring out which path you want to take. But again it comes back to listening to advisors and for us as mentors, as advisors, really helping the students see all the options that they may not be able to see just because of their experiences so far you know, in high school, in college, and who they've, who they've had to talk to and listen to before they get to college.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's conversation. I think so many times we leave families up to the side. But we have to understand, like so at least for my family, like I don't people and I joke around but it's like I didn't make a have my friends, I make a lot of money but what I did have was a lot of love for my family. I was like I don't know what to do with my family on the shadow, really kind of leave them in the corner and bring them in on these conversations, because that was a source of strength for me and, I know, for a lot of first and since their families who are supportive. That's the greatest strength that are going to bring to the table.
Speaker 1:You know, kind of, because they only come in asset for you, yeah, and I think sometimes we we forget that and we think of families maybe more less as allies, and support comes in all different ways and that love and that. You know I don't understand this, this award you want, or this club or organization you're in, or this chemistry problem you're figuring out, but I but I love you and I want you to succeed and how can I do that? And I think if we can give families that information, then that that helps the families and helps the students and everybody wins.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and yeah, and one thing I would add to as well as kind of in this vein assumptions, I think too, because first and since are not a model of you know. I mean always constantly educate yourself on the upcoming trends, keep educating yourself and these students experiences, talk to your students, figure out what they're going through. You don't make any assumptions. You know, when I give this presentation for one of my staff, one of my co workers because I don't reveal my name I kind of give them a case study, and by the case study is me, and they actually went through this whole like feel like, oh, this person's like this, or they're like this or like this. I'm like how do you know you're in there, I'm just used to that, you know. I mean right, right, and I said well, because you know, when we see things, we don't see them as they are, we see them as we are, and so our biases are assumptions, are, on spoken, inherent vice, that kind of exists within the kind of come out on those things. So don't assume anything.
Speaker 2:Talk to these students and give them your time and I know it's hard, especially in our profession where we're. So to me, what a next appointment, next appointment, next appointment, and I'm like one of my co workers said all the time. I love this. He always told me the greatest gift we can give to a student is our time and what we do at that time is a privilege. You know, and as long as you remember those things every time you have an international student, there's no way you can lose. I'm going to do a great movie because I love movies like a patch Adams.
Speaker 2:I know you have seen that, yeah yeah, if you treat the patient, you know you're going to win or lose. I know she's the illness. You're going to win or lose. If you treat the patient, you'll win every single time. Same with our students. You know, if we treat these students as human beings, with the daily work that they deserve, and we're willing to take our time and patients and give them that care and that support or whoever they're locking into life and kind of fill in that gap as an advisor, we're going to win every single time. And that's how people do. I love my job, I love what I do and I get inspired by a lot of my co workers on every show they do and, more importantly, my students inspire me just equally as much, if not more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just going to close on that, because what you said was so beautiful and it is so clear the passion that you have for for working with students, for for being advisor, for being the person that they can come to and say I don't know, I'm lost, where do I go, and then you connecting them to the right people on campus. It's it's just so obvious and talking with you, zach, that you do love what you do, so thank you so much for being on the podcast. If somebody wanted to reach out and hear more about the presentation or what you're doing on campus for first gen celebration day, how can they find you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this two ways. You can find me on LinkedIn. You just like I'm sure you can post a link. So maybe when you send this out to people, yeah, find me on LinkedIn. Zachary days are, then you can just find me there. But if you want to send me an email I also love getting emails I'll give you my personal email, which is on Zach Zach. Then literally the period itself, day Jardin, dsj are DNS at 2528 at Gmailcom. You pretty send me a personal email.
Speaker 2:You know, I would more than happy to kind of talk to you and even just engage in people. I want to really keep this conversation going, you know. I mean I'm just how we can support first gen students. I feel like this is kind of what I've called to do, if that makes any sense. Yes, divine thing. Yeah, I really want to connect with other person, focus professionals, and I wonder what are ways we can actually change the infrastructure of our higher education campus to really support these students. We don't have to no longer put band-aids on things, but we can actually make meaningful change for these students moving forward. So thank you so much and I really appreciate this time.
Speaker 1:My pleasure and I and I 100% agree and I will put ways you can get in touch with Zach into the show notes so if anybody wants to find his email and his LinkedIn, you'll be able to find it there. You can find me at first gen FMcom or you can email me at Jen that's J E N at first gen FMcom and I would love to hear from you either if you want to be a guest and talk about all the great things you're doing or you have an idea about who would be a great guest, or you just want to give me some feedback. Please rate and review this podcast so that other people can find it, because we want again to create this great web of advocates around the United States and maybe even the world, to serve our students well. So thank you so much, zach, for joining me and thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.