Turning Points and Triumphs: Guiding First-Genration Students to Their True Calling with Dr. Ashanti Chunn

Have you ever considered every turn in your path as a stepping stone towards your true calling? Dr. Ashanti Chunn, our guest from Tennessee State University, shares her compelling switch from biology to education and how it fueled her passion for mentoring first-generation college students through the transformative  You FIRST Project. Join us on First Gen FM, where we discuss storytelling and its impact on personal and professional growth.

As our conversation unfolds, we uncover the innovative Life Design curriculum at the heart of the You FIRST Project. This eight-semester guide, inspired by the work of William Johnson and Kathleen Shea Smith, is a beacon for students navigating the waters of self-discovery and career planning. Listen to how personality assessments and crafting personal mission statements can chart a course for meaningful work aligned with core values. We tackle the challenge of sparking voluntary engagement and continuously adapting to guide the way for student needs.

The episode culminates with a poignant exploration of persistence and identity in student support, dissecting their critical roles in retention and success. Dr. Chunn and I peel back the layers of student experiences, revealing the trials of homesickness and financial anxiety that can masquerade as thriving. We celebrate the evolution of support services, such as virtual sessions and honor societies, which are tailored to first-generation students. We part with empowering advice for those guiding the college-bound: support first-generation students with the tools they need to weave their education into their unique timeline and aspirations. Tune in and embrace this heartfelt dialogue, affirming the power of support over pity for first-generation students charting their course in higher education.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn's Bio
Ashanti Chunn, Ed.D. currently serves as the Assistant Director of the Tennessee State University You First Project Graduation Initiatives for First-Generation Students. Additionally, she directs the grant’s Journey to 120 credits activity and serves as one of the project’s First-Generation Specialists where she leads a team of three to help students actualize their college dreams. Previously, she served as the Activity Director of the Pathfinders Project at TSU. In that position, she identified and enacted academic support programming for first and second-year students in pre-professional majors such as nursing, health sciences, and dental hygiene. Before these positions, she served as an Academic Advisor for TRIO Student Support Services where she assisted first-generation and lower-income students to attain academic achievement and identify various career paths.

Links: 
TSU You First Project: https://www.tnstate.edu/youfirst/ 

Instagram: @tsu_youfirst Life Design Catalyst Curriculum: https://thedreamdean.com/life-design-catalyst-program/

University of Oklahoma Coaching to Complete Model/Persistence Themes: https://www.ou.edu/alc/ou-alc-coaching-to-complete-model

Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!

You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.

Transcript

Jennifer Schoen: 0:08

Hello, I'm Jennifer Shown, your host for the First Gen FN podcast. Please call me Jen. Each week, I'll share my insights and ideas, solo or with a special guest, on creating opportunities to celebrate and support the First Gen College and College Bound students we work with. My goal with this podcast is to connect you with other high school and college educators, to share our successes and challenges and create a web of First Gen advocates. Thank you for joining me today. Now let's dive into this week's episode.

Jennifer Schoen: 0:45

Welcome to First Gen FM. I'm so excited to have you here listening Today. I'm bringing you from Tennessee State and HBCU in Nashville, dr Ashanti Chun. She's the assistant director of the UFIRST project and I'm really excited to talk to her today about the UFIRST project because we met at a conference I believe it was the NASPA conference and we got to talking about the UFIRST project and a class that she runs and a whole bunch of other things. I'm like, oh, excellent. So finally we're getting together to talk about the after a few schedules. So thanks for coming, ashanti. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 1:26

Thank you so much for inviting me and thinking the information I have to share is valuable. I'm happy to be here.

Jennifer Schoen: 1:31

Yeah, absolutely. What got you into higher education and specifically working with First Generation College students?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 1:38

What got me into higher education. I was originally a biology major and I was working in a urology lab and I thought that would be a really good fit for me, and after working there I realized it wasn't the best thing, and so I happened to just be seeking direction, came to TSU's job website, because TSU was also where I went for undergrad and my first grad degree, and so it was really kind of just a shooting in the dark, hoping that it might be something, because I also had previous educational background, but it was K through 12. So I had been a biology teacher at a middle school and in a high school. So I was just wondering if there might be some sort of educational opportunity that I felt like better served me at Tennessee State, and so I took a chance. There happened to be a academic advisor position there for TRIO Student Support Services, and so I applied for that, was blessed enough to be hired, and so that allowed me my entry into higher education and simultaneously work with first gen students at the same time.

Jennifer Schoen: 2:49

Wow, that's awesome. I love talking about how people get to where they are, because so often paths are not linear oh, not at all, and I think many students still have that idea of a career ladder and when they hear stories like this they realize it's not necessarily a career ladder. But I like to think of it as sort of a career jungle gym where there's lots of different paths to get to how you want to get to where you want to, absolutely.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 3:17

I think that just represents the complexity of people, one of the things that I know we'll talk about this later but one of the things that comes up a lot in our sessions, because of what our framework is with you first, is who are you and telling your story and unpacking the fullness of that and helping students to understand that there are multiple ways to honor yourself. That might look like a single career that brings you fulfillment the entire time. It might look like jumping from path to path, and every single one of those paths is OK, as long as when you match it back to the standard of what you believe you're in this world to do, it honors that, and so I share my story with students because I want them to see that I did K through 12 education and I think that honored something that I'm very committed to, which is the betterment of other people's lives. And then I went to healthcare because I value what health is for people, and again it connected back to biology, which I have a passion for.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 4:18

But then there were just some elements of that particular career that didn't work for me, and so then I was able to try again in a different educational pond and this is the one that really sticks for me. But I think giving students that information I almost think it's a disservice not to, because sometimes they can feel as if then, or even we give the impression to people who perhaps are not college going, that if a person doesn't stay on a singular path, that they've somehow dishonored the journey of a degree. Absolutely not, if in obtaining that degree they discovered what their mission was, and every Lilly pad that they jumped to honors that.

Jennifer Schoen: 4:57

Yeah, and no knowledge is lost.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 5:00

Oh, not at all.

Jennifer Schoen: 5:01

It's. You never know how you're going to use the knowledge that you gained and you think maybe it's not related, but yet it comes up later in ways that you can't expect. So everything that you learn and how you grow takes you to where you are now and then going to next. So, yeah, I think that's fantastic, I think that's a nice segue to into talking about the you first project. So can you give us an overview of what that looks like and maybe how it got developed?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 5:31

Yeah, so the first project is our university's only comprehensive undergraduate first gen student support service. So we certainly acknowledge the work of trio. They remain on our campus but of course trio is funded for a certain number of students and so was able to serve that population. But we serve every undergraduate first generation student on our campus. So, ultimately, how that came to be, my director and myself we have worked at Tennessee State for a while, and so for the trio I moved to a specific grant funding that's for HBCUs, which is title three, and every five years those grants come up for potential renewal with the submission of a proposal to the Department of Education. And so it was time to submit something else in hope to bring a new idea to TSU. And because I was a part of trio when it started, I knew when trio ended as far as student support services on our campus, I knew that we didn't have something else on a large scale that served a lot of first generation students, and so my director and I had been talking about that and felt like that was the direction that we needed to go in. So we sat down and wrote this proposal and hoped to be able to service that group of students in a meaningful way, and, ultimately, that is how you first came about. So we have been in existence at TSU since October of 2020, which is interesting in and of itself because, if we remember what 2020 represents, we launched a brand new program in the middle of a pandemic, with students at home in the middle of a semester.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 7:06

So it was a very interesting journey to bring about, but that is how you first got started, and so, again, we are a comprehensive student support service for our students, and so we serve freshmen to senior students, and simply, the way that works is we have a team of people that we call first generation specialists, that have been trained in house according to the guidelines that we have, as well as according to the framework that we use to serve our students, which is the life design curriculum, and so each one of those specialists is assigned a certain major or majors, just so that we all carry a similar number of students on our case load, and then we are responsible for the first generation students on our campus who have identified themselves as such, who fall into those majors. So we are a voluntary program. We contact every single student who does fall into those categories, but it is up to the student to engage with us, and so, from that and those scheduling or them taking us up on our offer, we invite them to come in and have sessions with us. And again, we use this amazing curriculum called the life design catalyst framework, and so we use that to as the curriculum founder terms.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 8:25

It spark, and that's S-P-A-R-C-K and that's helping students to tell their story, identify their purpose, identify their aspirations, reflect on their actions for that point, identify who they need to connect and partner with to make the things that they want for their life happen. And then a catch phrase that I say to students after you start talking, you got to start walking. So the K is kickstart. How do I get into the gear? What do I do next and now in order to bring all of those things full circle? So that's what takes place in each one of our sessions. Ultimately, it is some level of helping students to discover and ignite their spark.

Jennifer Schoen: 9:06

I love that when I listen to this podcast again, I have a feeling I'm going to play that like over and over again, because I love all the different steps and I love that reflection is included. Oh, I think sometimes we get so busy doing, and students get so busy doing, that we don't, we don't give ourselves time to reflect, but we especially don't give students a chance to reflect and kind of see back down the mountain how far they've come sometimes, versus just always looking up to where they wanna go.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 9:38

Absolutely. It's something that our team really takes to heart. It's something when I'm talking to colleagues of mine, et cetera, I am encouraging them. You know what both did. You say you may not be where you want to be, but where are you now in relationship to where you were? Are you moving forward or are you moving backward? How do you feel about that, et cetera.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 9:56

But I think it's a really important thing, a gift almost to give to students, because our bigger purpose in this is we want them to have academic success, but, more importantly, we want them to have life success, and when we wrote you first, we were very intentional about that. We value all of the success metrics that a traditional institution has retention, credit, completion, you know, gpa, et cetera. However, this is a temporary stop on a continuous journey and if we are going to adequately prepare people, especially first gen individuals, then we have to provide them with tools that will equip them to be successful beyond this moment. So the beautiful thing also about life design is it's applicable at any stage in life. We do it with ourselves as a team. We do it with our students.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 10:51

I've discussed countless ways with my team and with the founder of this about all of the different ways that it could show up. And so reflection is so important, because there shouldn't be any point in your life where you're not stopping and saying where am I trying to go and am I on the right path to get there? It's an especially awesome gift for first generation students. Sometimes, being a first gen student and now grad myself, we're very focused on the end game and we don't necessarily take the time to give ourselves credit for things until we feel like we've gotten to what we said the ultimate goal is. So we reflect in the sense that hey, I'm not where I said I'm going, so you need to get there, but not necessarily stopping to take stock of all the beautiful nuggets that are happening in between or giving ourselves credit, cause we're like we'll stop and reflect when we get to the end game. We got big goals out here, so that's kind of where we sit a lot.

Jennifer Schoen: 11:54

Yeah, I heard a great podcast the other day that talked also about not just knowing where you're going, but where you are now, kind of comparing it to GPS, like you can't just put in your destination and expect to get there. You have to know where you're starting from before you get the best route to get there, and I think reflection helps to do that, like where am I right now? So I love that, I love the celebration of it, I love the reflection piece, I love the whole kickstart. Like you know, it's great to think about these things with that, and then you have to act on them as well. Yeah, what a great program. So what are some of the things that you do specifically around Spark, around the U-first program, and even the life design course can choose. What would you like to talk about in terms of either what you think the strength of the program is or what's some of the challenges that you've come across?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 12:47

Sure, I'll do both, if that's okay. Again, I think the strength is that number one, my supervisor. So I have to just give a shout out the U-first project director her name is Dr Ceci Abou and I say this in full honesty is one of the most visionary and brilliant minds I've met. So she's so good about giving me space and thinking bigger than even what's before us at the moment. And so in this, like I said, when we were writing this proposal, we were like what can we do that benefits students now and benefits students later? And we were fortunate enough to have been in spaces with both William Johnson, bill Johnson, who created life design, what we use and also to be in a space with Dr Kathleen Shaysmith from the University of Oklahoma, and we had heard wonderful things that they were doing in both spaces and realized that there were elements of both of those things that we wanted to combine and bring to our students.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 13:54

Bill had created life design in a call from his university, uncg, to create an advising program for students. Well, instead of creating the traditional advising program, he created this class what can I do with my life? And in what can I do with my life? He put together these various activities that move students through these four modules knowing self, sense of self, becoming a better you and, basically, who are you. So these are the four things that students would walk through as an advisement session, if you will, but over the course of a semester. And then Kathleen Shaysmith and the University of Oklahoma had done this incredible work not specific to first generation students, but just really important work on persistence themes. They had done the work to figure out what are the things that have to be addressed in order for students to be able to continue to move forward in this journey, and so we pulled both of those things together.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 14:52

We do not have a class at our university, but we were like what would it look like to turn this class into sessions and turn it into a curriculum that works with students over the course of their eight, or potentially more or less, semesters during their matriculation? And then how can we bring in also those things that we know are important to them and have to be successfully mastered or addressed in order for them to keep coming back? And so, in our sessions, what that looks like is, when we were writing this proposal, I sat down and basically adapted both of those things and created an entire eight semester curriculum for our students For each semester, or actually for each semester, but actually even for each session. So what this looks like is we're saying we try to get students to come in for three sessions a semester and for each of those sessions they have a very specific intent that the specialist is trying to achieve. So let's say, for instance, in the very first one we're just trying to get them to begin to realize the importance of their story.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 15:59

So, working with that S, we are engaging in activities where we're asking them open-ended questions to get them to tell us more about themselves. That evolves into things like using elements from Bill's curriculum where we're getting them to engage in personality assessments. So they're doing things like Myers-Briggs, they're doing things like the Enneagram, and then we're sitting back and having this really wonderful conversation and then really honing in on, for instance, like the section with Myers-Briggs that then talks about possible career paths because of personality, because what we want them to see this as is not disjointedness, it's not oh, I choose a major and this is who I am and this is what I value, but none of those things connect in any way.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 16:43

So we are very intentional in the sessions about life design being all of those things coming together. Who are you, what do you want? What do you value? Where do you feel like that all combines to make what you believe to be meaningful work? So a session again can look like asking them open-ended questions or getting them to participate in a personality assessment. It could look like getting them to create a mission statement for themselves, creating a meaningful work statement for themselves.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 17:18

So what meaningful work looks like to them? It looks like values inventory. Sometimes we literally here's even one of them. We have value tags that physically, 36 things that they cut out and they love. It gives them an opportunity to engage, tactile, et cetera. But they start out putting them into significant and insignificant for them and they have to narrow them all the way down from what's important to 10 to five. And then we talk it through. And then we talk about okay, as it relates to your major, what you believe your career outlets are. How do these values show up? Are they being honored in that space?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 17:59

Again, it's always this intentionality where nothing is done in the box. So that's essentially what sessions look like. Again, ultimately, when we get our way, we see them at least three times to really have meaningful conversations. Some people jump into that and we see them even more times and sometimes we have a harder time, which takes me to the challenge part of it, again. We are voluntary and we are on an amazing campus that has a lot of different support resources.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 18:28

And students are humans, of course, but adults just like any other, and a lot of us know that there are things that we should have in our life that we don't necessarily take advantage of, whether that's the health coaching that our insurance offers us or the financial planning that we should do, or just sitting down and writing the goals that we have for our own life. And so, ultimately, that is our challenge that we are voluntary and that we believe in this so much and know what it can do for a person. And sometimes that passion can get you where you even can get frustrated, like, oh, why don't they come in? Why don't they see me? I know what it will do for them. And you cast out your survey and you get their responses about what they wish the college would do, and then they give you answers and you're like that's exactly what we're doing. We do that right.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 19:18

We are here doing that right now, and yet I don't see you. So that's the challenge piece is to continue to figure out how to make it Attractive. The challenge is also being willing to be humble. How does it need to change? What does it need to? How does it need to modify, potentially to reflect more of what they want to see? Because, as somebody who has been a part of it from the beginning, in the inception, you know this is like a baby for me. So of course, it can be easy to be like, no, everything is exactly like it needs to be. But stop, a Shanti isn't what they need.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 19:58

You know, when I was doing my dissertation, one of the theories that I was quoting was saying that for a support service on a campus, part of that support services responsibility is to Get people to engage. That, no matter how good that support service is, if they cannot get people to engage with them, then they fall flat in some ways, and so that is something that we have had to address. What do we continue to do? To diversify our message and to find ways to Get students more students, because it would certainly be unfair To say that people are not.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 20:33

People are definitely, and they give us a great quantitative and qualitative Data back, but we want more of that, and so the strength is the framework in the curriculum and the work that has been put in to creating something that will serve them here but at every single juncture of their life, because they can come back in there later, 20s and 30s and 40s, and talk about their values. They can redo their meaningful work statement. They can redo. So these aren't things that are just specific to this moment, but our challenge is we have to have a product that's attractive to the people that we're trying to attract, not just attractive to us. How do we bring those two things together and continue to innovate with students and the generational needs of today and give them something that they want?

Jennifer Schoen: 21:20

Right, yes, I love how you put that, because it's we know things. We know a lot of things about what students need, and the students Sometimes know things and what they need, but they're not sure how to access it, and if it doesn't look interesting or is not appealing to them, then they're not going to engage in it, and so that's we have to deliver the goods, but we also have to tell them about it in a way that makes it really easy for them to access it absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 21:49

I agree Absolutely.

Jennifer Schoen: 21:50

Hey, I was when you were talking. So you have a class that you do for this and then does your do your advising sessions kind of mirror the class, like if you meet with a student one-on-one, you know what particular class and what stage they're at in Spark, and so then you, you do your. You know you're holistic advising around that.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 22:11

So we, our team, does teach a class, but the class is not related to life design. We just happen to teach a freshman University seminar class. So we follow the curriculum that the university has for that build the creator. When he was delivering it, he delivered it as a class at his institution but we didn't get that. So our strictly happens in the sessions. So, a specialist because I would be assigned, let's say to you, I know exactly where you are, because, of course, we're also using our student information platform to document our sessions. So every time you come back, I know where you are. And so, again, since I have written a pretty structured curriculum as well, it is literally like an educators lesson plan. So if you came in for session one, you would see you know the topic and the intent and the methodology, so what activities you would be covering then. And then you're able to pull that back out Like, oh, this is Jennifer's third one, okay, she's on this, so we're going to this now.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 23:09

Of course, we're always giving space because these are student sessions to first address what is it that you want to talk about today, always giving space to that. If the student doesn't have something, then we ask for permission. I've got a couple things I'd like to talk about today. So is it okay that we go there? So then we fall back into the curriculum that we have. But so we know where that student is, because it's not Really happening in that class just because we're all Trained in like design. There certainly are some elements that probably come out in our university seminar class, but that is not what that class's focus is.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 23:42

So we use our student information system and our notes to know where each student is, even you know, as they sometimes go between specialists, because of course you'll have a major change etc.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 23:52

So you just pull up all of that student's file and you're able to see where they are and then Leave them with the next space and sometimes, because I wouldn't want to want to get the wrong impression, even though we have this structured curriculum, we also give um space and grace to specialists as the trained professionals in the room to know where students need to go based on what they're saying.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 24:13

So if something from year two, session two, seems like the next thing that needs to happen, even though the student is year one, semester four, then grab that thing, pull that up, because you know sometimes I'll get a student and they walk in and they're like I have to know what it is I'm gonna do with my life, like I have wasted too much time and I don't know. And you know, even though I have a build up, you know, as far as the story and the perfect to get them to a place, then sometimes I realize I have a Captive person in front of me who, if they don't get something tangible in that moment, they're going to mentally check out because they don't have what they need. So then that makes me go into the curriculum and grab what I need for that moment To get them to a space where they can walk away with with what they say they want to have. So there's certainly flexibility in that as well.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 25:01

But yes ours happens with sessions.

Jennifer Schoen: 25:03

Yeah, so so you have the session and a plan, but you also let the student lead. Absolutely they need at the moment.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 25:11

Yeah, absolutely so. You know, in session one, when we're also telling them, because we're letting them tell their story, but we're also explaining to them what you first is, because if we want them to come back, of course they need to understand what this is. So they're understanding that this is what we'd like to happen, but in every given moment, these are yours. We can switch it up. This is what we're doing. So they know, and we reaffirm each time they come into the space what is it? You know that you want to do, what do you want to have happen? And I think it's the important balance. They trust us as the professionals in the room, that we do have some ideas and plans and are equipped To help them get where they want to go, but they are the expert of their lives. So we don't run the show, we just help facilitate the process that you say that you want to go through. So tell us what you want to have happen.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 26:01

Yeah yeah, and I didn't mention. I mentioned persistence things a bit, but let me come back to that just so it makes a little bit more sense. Persistence themes that they identified are things like health and resiliency, um financial confidence, um Major to career design, just those elements that you can look at a person and they have friends, etc. But let's say that the health and resiliency piece isn't where it needs to be. They're feeling homesick, they're not feeling confident, they don't feel that they have the efficacy to To sustain this path. Then things can be going well, visibly, as far as what we see, or we could be having great life design conversations, but they're they're elements that are not being hit at the level they need to in order to sustain their return.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 26:42

So how we work those in often is um Just simply open and really great open-ended questions from a document that the university of oklahoma created. So they have, uh, open-ended questions that almost look progressive, almost like levels of Of growth for each one of those persistence themes, and so sometimes we just have our book open and we'll just throw out some of those um. Have you experienced moments of homesick, sickness or feelings of not belonging this semester? If you have talked about, talk about those and how you walk through them. So just some intentionality on placing those things there, because you can be very focused on a particular Topic or context for the sessions and then realize that you have somebody sitting in front of you that's struggling with some other things. They're answering all the questions, right, but they don't know where the money's gonna come from for next semester, so they're gonna walk out the door and not return. So again, it's a perfect marriage between those things too that happen in our sessions.

Jennifer Schoen: 27:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are some things that you've learned from students over over the the times, the years that you've been doing this? Both right, you know, during the pandemic and post, yeah, um what are some things that I have learned?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 27:51

First, I think that, literally just like everybody else, you can need something and not know how to integrate that into your life. Or you can know some things about yourself but still need some reassurance or affirmation that what you know is what you know, what I love in one session in particular. Again, I typically always leave them through personality assessments, ask them if they're open. They're so funny because when you get to the end, they they treat you like some magic genie or something. How do you know those things about me? I'm like I don't actually know anything other than what you're telling me. You answered all the questions and just because I've had the opportunity to do this enough, I'm able to lead the conversation. But no magic eight ball, nothing behind the scenes. Um, you know the answers and so it's. It's just beautiful when they answer you know, authentically, truthfully, and then they're like that is right, that is how I engage in relationships, etc. And so that's what I mean when I'm saying sometimes you know what you know, but you need affirmation that what you know is true. Um, so things like that help and we do a series of assessments again so that they don't feel like it's a singular thing. You know, we do a values assessment, we do the idiot grand, we do the personality assessment. Um, what else did? I Learned from them that this identity in general, um, it strikes people in different ways. Some people don't feel this automatic pride About being first gen and we have to give space for that as well. Sometimes we will talk to people. They understand our definition, they know what we're saying and they are like, hey, I don't want it, I don't consider myself first gen and remove myself from your communication. You have to take that, you have to like yes, you're trying to convey something to them about how it's a beautiful thing and it's pride and it's the the start of a legacy, but you have to honor where they feel in that journey. Um, also, I think I would say just that remembering it's just a lot to navigate.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 29:55

Whether they are quote unquote traditional, going college age or non traditional, there are just so many elements that are in the air. Every semester brings different courses and new personalities and you have to tap back in and set goals, and so it's a really fluid time and some moments, just like with any other adult, they feel like they're on top of the world, and so you see them more and you get more from them, and sometimes they do not, and I can't and I talk to the team, we can't take that personally. We have to show up in the same way, steal and try to provide as much affirmation and reassurance as possible for something that is difficult. It is certainly doable, but it shouldn't be lost on us, just because we've gotten a degree, that this is a tough thing to do, because life keeps happening while you're doing it. It doesn't stop for college, and so sometimes all of us have experienced moments where we want to press pause on everything else to get one thing right, and life does not afford us that beautiful opportunity. So to remember that and to be kind to them because, again, standing on this side, sometimes as the educator or the support service or what not, you want to be like come on, we gotta do this, we gotta get together, you can do it, it's gonna be okay.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 31:16

They may not feel that or know that or whatever the case is. They just have to offer grace. Now you hold accountable to what they say they want, but you offer them a lot of grace, so they constantly teach me that and remind me of that and also just the joy of seeing the world with fresh eyes. Sometimes it sounds crazy like in our university 1000 class. We have them do a budget and tell us what they think they're gonna make and all of these other things, and you see these numbers like well, you must not be going into education. But also you realize it's not yours to take and to diminish and tell them what can't be. Anything is possible and we are supposed to be the strongest hope dealers and advocates that there are. So it is a blessing to be able. So what I learned from them too is they see it fresh and they don't necessarily care that you don't think it's possible and I don't know that that's such a bad idea?

Jennifer Schoen: 32:24

No, I mean, we are working with people who are gonna change the world.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 32:27

Absolutely.

Jennifer Schoen: 32:28

We don't know how or when, but that's the gift that we get right, and I agree with you that they see the world differently and we get to see it through their eyes and they have I wanna call it like a practical or a pragmatic idealism about them. That is just a joy. It's just like no, I'm gonna do all these amazing things and we're just like I love that we're gonna give hope and say you go and do that and it rubs off on you.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 33:00

I feel like it's kind of like sticks and kindling, because I don't think that you can be around people who are energetic and constantly pursuing dreams and telling themselves that anything is possible and believing things that they don't even have a reason to believe and not grab on to some of that hope. So I think it's a joy for us too. So, yeah, they've definitely taught me lots of things, including and maybe I should say that the biggest thing also, particularly with our students, is just how much they go through to make this dream happen. It is, unfortunately, not unique to hear students tell us I had a parent die this semester. You had no idea. I have parents who are terminally and chronically ill. I've faced various traumas etc. Just things that blow you away, and how they continue to navigate and be strong. So I think that's what I also learned is that they want it and so they are going forward in spite of so many things that, understandably, could halt the journey.

Jennifer Schoen: 34:14

Yeah, yes, there absolutely is that component as well, and you look at them in amazement. For what?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 34:23

they do, absolutely.

Jennifer Schoen: 34:24

And go through at 18, 19, 20 years old.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 34:28

Right.

Jennifer Schoen: 34:29

They shouldn't have to. But the handle, yeah, I just, I love how you talk about it, sort of the grace, the self-efficacy, the identity development and meeting with them where they are but having all these amazing things to pull in to then help kind of guide and direct them.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 34:50

Yeah, it has been fun and we have developed like where we were in 2020. We were just doing virtual sessions, trying to get them to answer the email like who is this? Go away, it doesn't matter. But we've done that and we've grown to having newsletter and a podcast of our own and having a first generation honor society and doing Instagram live workshops and having first gen celebrations. So it has grown to a really, really beautiful and, what we hope, comprehensive space for them to just celebrate themselves and get them to go to every direction.

Jennifer Schoen: 35:29

Yeah, love it, love it, love it. So tell me, if you had to give advice to a high school person who's working with first gen students maybe they're in like a gear up program or avid what would you say to them to kind of help them get ready for taking advantage of your program or even thinking about preparing for college?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 35:51

I think I would first say to them you owe it to yourself to ensure that how you want to show up in the world mandates or says that then college is a part of that journey, and the reason why I say that is it may not be at this moment. And so I see a lot of people also that when we begin, you know, peeling these layers back, you kind of figure out oh, it sounds like you're saying that this wasn't the spot right now, but perhaps they were doing something for someone else or they've never had the opportunity to sit down and be asked these questions at this level to really understand. So I would first say just make sure this is the path that you want to go on right now. And again, choosing whether or not it is or isn't isn't a definitive, terminal statement for your life. Just at this moment, based on what you want to do, what you want to pursue, how you want to show up, what you know about yourself, what you value, is this the right next step?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 36:50

Once you say yes to that, then I think I would say to the person that was working with that student and this was something I wrote in the notes, we don't need your pity, and I say that even when you're a first-gen grad sometimes. Sometimes you fool yourself into thinking that what this person needs from you is pity, because oh, they're first-gen and how are they going to get it done? We don't need that. And so I would say to the student you don't need that. I would say to the worker they don't need that. We simply need you, simply need support and your commitment as the worker to be as transparent with information critical to our success as possible. We just need demystification of the process, we need the curtain to be ripped down and we need you to do everything within your capacity to afford us equitable access. And for that student I would say you've already gotten to this point. You have every single thing inside of you that you need.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 37:55

But what you must remember is college is not a place for things to be done alone. You're going to a place that is built with supports in it, because we know it's not meant to be done alone. And something that is our greatest strength, but also possibly our kryptonite, is often we do a lot of things by ourselves because we simply know we don't have necessarily the resource that can take us to that particular place. Emotionally, they're supporting us, they're doing things with us. But as far as just having that knowledge, they may or may not have that. So we kind of get into this little box where we tell ourselves I don't know if I'm going to go over there. And so I would say to that student don't hinder yourself from these amazing relationships. Again, that's the sea. These people are here and they're a part of the journey that's going to change your life. Don't do yourself a disservice by telling yourself that strength is measured by how many successes you have alone.

Jennifer Schoen: 38:53

You're right, I'm snapping away at that. Yeah, I think if I could teach help seeking behavior, I would like say teaching help seeking behavior, role modeling, help seeking behavior, absolutely. I mean, whether you're a, whether you're a high school educator or a college educator, you can always do that. And just really supporting and encouraging and recognizing students when they ask for help, like I'm always just like what are?

Jennifer Schoen: 39:23

the student emails me a question like thank you so much for reaching out to you know, let's see what we can do about this, and I just think that that kind of encouragement is so necessary because our students are are so independent and that they are used to doing everything on their own, and so then, they college and and they continue that. I was a great success in high school doing it on my own. I can do it in college, and that's when they're yeah, and that's just.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 39:52

It's not. Every stage of life is benefited by people that are supportive. But what you said is also the key, because nothing is single sided. It is also for that high school worker or for us, when they get to us, to positively affirm that seeking help is a good thing, because I do hear countless stories of students who did try and then they were met with something that felt as if it was confirming that they should not have sought help, that they were not right to do so. So it's something for all of us, wherever we fall in their spectrum, also to not only tell them to go out and seek it but then, when people do seek it from us, not do the opposite and basically smack them on their hands and say, no, now why are you asking me? Or to give it to them in their tone? Because in the work that I have done, I think I've seen more so amongst the first gen population that will just turn around and go the other way. I probably shouldn't have asked anyway. So it's both of those things that you said modeling, that helps seeking, but also for us, the people that can provide the service, modeling, the affirmation of the goodness of seeking it, making it where they want to continuously engage with us. So all of that is so important.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 41:09

I think the other thing is just know that you can. You just know that you can do it. You know, imposter syndrome is a very real thing, but you deserve to be there because the institution accepted you. If they accepted you, you have to to reconcile in your mind that you belong in the space just as much as anyone else, and so try very hard to silence that tape that says it's because of this or it's because of that, or everyone else has it together. And I'm the person that don't, because I can affirm, as I work primarily with first gen, but I see a lot of legacy students because they'll just come in and be like, well, where is this thing for me? Where's the legacy group on campus? I know that there are people all across that campus who don't know things, whether they are the fourth generation to show up or the first, or are confused or don't know what to do with their life. So don't let the smiles fool you.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 42:13

Sometimes Everyone has some level of being lost, and so you serve that space as much as anyone else.

Jennifer Schoen: 42:23

Yeah, yeah. I think it's really interesting that when you talk about that tape, like just eject that tape and get rid of it, but for our students they're like what's a tape? So it's like it's streaming. Cut off that streaming, go to another channel, right they're telling you. We have to come up with new language for the tape thing.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 42:40

Yeah, that part is true. You have brought that to my attention in that Like. Is that one of those relics I saw in?

Jennifer Schoen: 42:47

the museum. That's what I always say yeah, that's what I always say.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 42:51

So yeah, I guess take the air pod out of your ear. It's a whole change I know we're going to have Just a serious station, yeah.

Jennifer Schoen: 42:57

Well, we'll do a whole dissertation on the language of the students. That is very true very true, but my other question for you, then is, sort of as we're wrapping up, is if someone if me or you out there listening wanted to start a program like this, what advice would you give them, ashanti?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 43:15

Oh gosh, I think I would say first, first and foremost, please try to get a read on the population that you're serving. If you could do a focus group or something before you start to ask the students that you're wanting to serve what they need, I think it's critical If we had it to go back and do all over again, I think we definitely would have done more of that. Figure out what they need so that your program is in response to that. We have studied it and done various graduate degrees, et cetera, and so we know what we know. But just like a company that's creating a product for a consumer, at what point are they going to ask the people that they're making the product for what it is that they need or want from the product? So start with the student voice and allow that to be paired with your expertise in the area to create the program. But then I think I would say, second, you do not have to reinvent the wheel. There are so many gracious, supportive educators at these higher education institutions who are willing to tell you what they are doing, to share their information, and all they simply ask for is acknowledgement. Again, that's what we did. We modified something for TSU, but it was because of the incredible graciousness of Bill and him allowing us to take that, the wonderful graciousness of the University of Oklahoma and sharing their document with us, other people. Our method of working with people is appreciative, and so we reached out to Jennifer Bloom at FAU.

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 44:51

Reach out to people and find the things that answer those things that your institution needs. Of course, come up with anything that you want to, but just know that there's lots of information and help out there to do that. So don't be afraid to reach out to your colleagues and get that help as well. Also, once you start implementing, give your own self grace. It's not all going to come together overnight. The same grace that we are asking students to give themselves, we also have to afford us. But in that same vein, be honest enough with yourself and kind enough to yourself to admit when it's not working, when you've had enough time to actually see whether or not it is or isn't, and then just be willing to pivot. There is no loss whatsoever in acknowledging, hey, this doesn't work or parts of this don't work, let's take it and reimagine it and do something else. But I think as long as student need and student success is at the center of what you do, you will certainly find your way.

Jennifer Schoen: 45:58

Yes, totally agree. So, Ashanti, if people want to get in touch with you, they're like, oh my gosh, she said all these great things, like I need to follow up with her. How would they find you? What's the best place to get in touch with you?

Dr. Ashanti Chunn: 46:10

Yeah, first of all, if they said that I would want their email address so I could send them a check, because that really does a lot for my self esteem. But so in order to get that check, they could email me at a-c-h-u-n-n at t-n-s-t-a-t-eedu, so that's h-i-n at 10stateedu. If that was hard to remember or whatnot. They could simply come to www.10stateedu that's our homepage for Tennessee State University and in the search bar they could type in the first project. We'll be the first result that comes up and they're able to learn more about our project. They're able to see our specialists. They would be able to see me in schedule a session if they'd want to talk that way or just get a feel for what we are doing. Also, they could follow us on Instagram if they would like, or Facebook, and we are at tsu-underscore-u-first.

Jennifer Schoen: 47:20

Shanti, thank you so much for joining me today. It was really a pleasure to have you and to talk about the U-1st project. I wrote notes. I'll be thinking about some of these things that you talked about and it was a real pleasure, thank you so much. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to reach out to me to be a guest or to recommend a guest, you can email me at gen that's J-E-N at firstgenfmcom. My website is firstgenfmcom if you're interested in learning more about my speaking topics. If you like this episode, please rate and review wherever you listen. It helps others to find the show and it's a nice boost for me to know you're listening. Until next week, keep doing the important work you do. Thank you.