Alienated Kids, Parents, and Grandparents Round Table Discussion - Part 1

The pain of family estrangement cuts deep, and in our latest episode, we grapple with this silent struggle alongside guests from the PAA community.  We share not only our own heart-wrenching experiences of alienation from our children but also the journeys of others who are navigating these turbulent waters. Embark on a conversation that is both a map and a compass for those seeking to mend the fractures within their own families, and discover the solace that comes with knowing you're not navigating these rough seas alone.

As we unfold the layers of emotional landscapes shaped by broken bonds and societal constructs, you'll find yourself immersed in a dialogue that's as real as it gets. We delve into how childhood traumas echo through generations and the ways in which these hidden currents can lead to alienation. The insights gained here are not just theoretical—they're lived experiences that provide clarity on the path to healing, the responsibilities of parenting, and the transformation that comes when one confronts their identity within the family unit.

The journey doesn't end with understanding the problem; it beckons us toward recovery and advocacy. Our conversation culminates as we highlight the transformative power of support systems, such as Parental Alienation programs that foster self-improvement and bridge-building with our children. These poignant tales reveal the strength found in vulnerability, the gratitude for life's trials, and the hope for a reunion. Each story is a testament to the relentless pursuit of reconnection and the belief that, despite the past's shadows, a brighter future for our families is within reach.

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Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I don't take on the responsibility for the alienation that occurred, but I understand that they were struggling humans people, parents as well and I think much of it is not necessarily intentional but a reaction to unresolved childhood trauma or their own past, and that's brought me a lot of comfort and understanding for both of them.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Hi, welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. My name is Gio and I'm your co-host.

Speaker 3: 0:32

Hi, this is Lawrence Joss and welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:35

In this episode on the podcast, we had an awesome opportunity to not only have parents who are alienated from their kids, but some of these parents who are alienated were also themselves alienated children. I found the interviews to be intense, emotional, and it brought me to a place where I had to confront some things that weren't so comfortable, so I hope you can join us.

Speaker 3: 1:04

I'm with you, gio. The show was incredibly provocative and it was so great to hear the insights from these now young adults and adults that were previously alienated kids, and it's a must listen. So stick around, listen to the show. Please remember to subscribe, support the show in any way that feels appropriate, share with friends and family and let's get into it. There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:59

For those of you who haven't had the opportunity to meet me, my name is Gio. I am an alienated mother. The alienation went on for about 10 years, but complete alienation from my 27 year old and my 25 year old has been for the last 18 months, and I have a rich relationship with my 22 year old and sharing with what has gone on in my situation. Today's show really brought me to a place where I had to look at what my older two children are going to be walking through in the next couple of years and the rest of their life in relation to how they are going to potentially decide or not decide to reconnect with me. It's very challenging having a child that is talking with you, recognizing you, seeing some changing growth, and then you have two other children that can't hear you because they aren't connected to you, and there's a yearning to have that connection with those kids and I'm hopeful that one day perhaps that'll happen. For us.

Speaker 3: 3:13

That's awesome, gio, and just for everyone out there that's listening, the show is just fantastic hearing what kids were experiencing in their bodies and in their minds as they were going through being alienated, not having any language or any understanding what was happening, and then what it looks like now as they're in recovery and as they're working on themselves and this for any alienated parent, grandparent, estranged folks or race folks. This is just a great bridge to start to gain some better understanding. So let's jump into the show, right.

Speaker 4: 3:43

Roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable, roundtable roundtable.

Speaker 3: 3:59

My name is Lawrence and I'm an alienated father. I have three daughters. I have a 29-year-old daughter that I've had no contact with for about eight years. I have a 26-year-old daughter that I've had almost no contact for the last four years and a 21-year-old daughter I have regular contact with, and I also have a couple grandkids I'm yet to meet.

Speaker 4: 4:17

Hi, my name is Renee. I'm alienated from my two adult boys, ages 37 and 38, and four grandchildren that range in age from 8 to 12.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Hi, I'm Darryl. I have two daughters, ages 12 and 9, who I see regularly now, and I was alienated from my father as a child and didn't realize until I was an adult.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Hi, my name is Jiho. I have three children. I am alienated for 18 months from my 27-year-old and my 25-year-old. I have a 21-year-old who I have connection with, and I'm also blessed to have two stepchildren and two grandchildren.

Speaker 5: 4:58

Hello, my name is Jaehoon. I've been alienated adult child, alienated to my father, and I've been a meshed and a meshed, co-dependent relationship with mother. I was a mother's boy Only until a few years ago. I'm realizing this and I'm trying to improve my relationships with father and masculinity.

Speaker 6: 5:16

Hi, my name is Betsy. I am a mother of three boys 24, 22, and 19. I was alienated for over eight years and am now reunited with all three.

Speaker 7: 5:31

Hi, my name is Anna. I'm the alienated parent of two adult sons, a 20-year-old and a 19-year-old, and I've been alienated from them for seven years.

Speaker 5: 5:41

What I realized as I've been doing the recovery in a work for some years in psychoanalysis, is that children, parents give birth to other children and which makes them basically a home, an orphanage, where the children are just competing for the resources in an omnidirectional deathmatch kind of.

Speaker 5: 6:03

That's how I what I realized been happening like parents are parentifying the children and they have needs. They haven't been seen and heard. They expect their children to see and hear them, so it's never time for children to be seen and heard, and so it's like life is revolving around parents and children are laborized as if they are. They've been made these designated like a product to regulate their parents' moods, carry their trauma, depression and or made extension of parents, and so not much room for children to explore themselves and become themselves, find out who they are. It's not that kind of room, is not much given. So this is my realization and in this society today we have insurance for cars or for immobile material stuff, and I have yet to see an insurance for children and maybe we can add such insurance as optional when people insure their cars or homes, because most accidents happens in home. I can't understand why we value so much the damages and accidents with cars and houses, but not for the human life and children as much.

Speaker 3: 7:28

Wow, jeho, that's a really intense topic and I like the idea of like this orphanage stuff and, from what I'm understanding from what you're saying is that the parents are using the kids as resources to do some of their work that they never did. They're trying to get the kids to resolve their own trauma, and that makes a lot of sense to me. I had a lot of that in my family where my parents hadn't done their work and, yeah, I was definitely used as a surrogate for their nervous system and I see that happen into my children too. So, yeah, that's a very visceral image you painted.

Speaker 6: 8:08

What's interesting about that is brings up my little bit of my background with systemic psychology and understanding how, like the family systems and their systemic loyalties and that, perpetuate toxic behavior. And that's what I, you know in being in recovery, learning about family systems therapy, and it's wild to see the dysfunction that continues through generation after generation. So it's important to find a way to address these issues so that there is healing and that we don't continue to perpetuate difficult situations that we've all gone through. May I ask you a?

Speaker 7: 8:52

question Jeho.

Speaker 5: 8:54

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 7: 8:55

So, when you came to that realization, how did that feel for you? How did it feel in your body and in your heart?

Speaker 5: 9:02

Okay, I think that I was first mortified six years ago in a toxic relationship, like the end chain of that relationship, which was also toxic, which had me collapsed completely. So it felt like. It felt like first I was mortified, then I've been looking for the insights as to what had happened in the last 10 years. So, in a way, I was first. I couldn't go any more than mortified. You know, I couldn't be shocked anymore. It's like you watch the most horrific movie first, then the rest of the movies our movies don't scare you anymore. I think that's how it felt to me. I wish I had the insights before to prevent disaster from coming, but so I had the insights after disaster.

Speaker 1: 9:54

Yeah, it's through disaster that we gain insights, I think. But, jayhoun, I just wanted to ask you about something specific you said that resonated with me. Prentile alienation is sometimes presented as a gendered problem of mothers or fathers, but it's not. It affects all of them. But you mentioned finding your father and exploring what masculinity means to you, and that really resonated with me, because it's not just about necessarily losing a relationship with a parent, but also a role model and a connection with parts of yourself, and I can relate to the feeling of suddenly feeling like I'm waking up, wondering what does it mean to be a man? What is masculinity to me? So I was curious to hear more about what you thought about that.

Speaker 5: 10:44

Yeah, darryl, what I'm realizing is there's been a big gap, like big, a big distance from mother and father, as if they haven't chosen to marry each other, as if they've been just following a societal script. And a marriage is supposed to have children and unfortunately, children is the only thing that makes the marriage look like a marriage, so children are not driving that marriage forward in a way. So I think, thank you, father has been neglectful and career-empowered driven and maybe in most conservative countries maybe, maybe this is specific to Turkey and the mothers then take on two roles being a father and mother, but then because of this maybe more effort, they feel that they own, they take ownership of children as a return of investment, so they raise children as a kind of investment, so they see mother. I think my mother has seen only the part of me or projected the ideal son image onto me, but the rest of me that was related to also my father and brother. She dismissed, so I became, and she kind of she disconnected me from my life veins, to the world, so I got even more dependent on her source of giving, like love, and that's further distance me to masculinity or father.

Speaker 5: 12:09

It's like, in a way, I was in my mother's egg, unhatched, and she was sitting on me like a chicken, so the sperm in me just couldn't blend with the egg. And only in these last three years I'm feeling and that makes me feel like transmutation, as if I'm turning into a wolf or something. That creates also anger and resentment and panic. What am I becoming? Because the sperm now finally is in the egg and it's like a drug for three years lasting. I can't stop it Like it took over me and I think it's a good thing. But just like any change, right Unknown is dreadful. It's dread dreadens me.

Speaker 1: 12:51

Those are powerful, powerful metaphors and I can relate to the identity transformation and how that brings up anxiety and panic when it does hit. So I appreciate that. I appreciate the question, Thank you.

Speaker 5: 13:02

John.

Speaker 4: 13:03

Jaehoon, I love your analogies. I love any time I can get a visual of something, and what I heard you say was parents take ownership of children. And that's exactly what was going on in my mind is what do you do when you grow up? You get married, and then, when you get married, people start asking when are the children coming? And that was really generational for my parents and, to a certain extent, for my generation, that it just became something that people just said once you were married well, when are you going to have children?

Speaker 4: 13:41

And what I love about the current generation that's in their 20s and 30s, is they seem to be a little more conscientious about do I want children? You know, is this something that I want to take on or not? It's a big responsibility, it's expensive. I don't want to just do this without any forethought. And in my situation when I grew up with my parents, children were seen and not heard, and my mom would try to fix that by going behind the scenes with us and trying to patch up my father's all of his blunders, but somehow things still seemed very, very off and I feel that that was fallout from people having children that maybe really didn't want them and my dad has actually said I never wanted to have children and boy. What a difficult thing that was to hear for the first time, so good conversation.

Speaker 3: 14:49

I really got a chuckle out of the idea of insurance for your kids. You know what I mean. Like we bring these kids into the world and we don't really know what we're doing. I'll talk for myself. I was 21, 22 years, having a for having a kid and coming in raising them with the same things. My parents raised me and, yeah, they could definitely have used an insurance policy that they could cash in and and get some services or some kind of help. I just thought that was funny.

Speaker 6: 15:15

Insurance policy. How about a handbook of like you should have to take a test before you have the children and you know that was I appreciate that insurance policy. I also appreciate, like, could we devise some kind of like manual that you have to pass before Entering into this, this parenting thing, which leads to ready the whole idea? For me, my wish is like why is it that when you get divorced, there should be like a tribunal, almost like it, not just one judge, not just it, there should be a, an automatic with every divorce when there's children involved, there should be a committee that has to, you know, pass through, like what's going on.

Speaker 1: 15:57

I can. I can relate to the sentiment of that, but it sounds a little bit George Orwell 1984 to me. I was. I was 32 when, when my first daughter was born and Both my daughters were planned and deeply wanted and loved, and I think I think I would have passed the test after teaching sociology and psychology Because I had no idea what was really deeply troubling me underneath. And so I try to keep in mind that my parents were or are fallible humans and have made mistakes, and I have made a lot of mistakes as a parent, but especially after separation, and I don't take on the responsibility for the alienation that occurred. But I understand that they were struggling humans, people, parents as well and I Think much of it is not necessarily intentional but a reaction to unresolved childhood trauma or their own past, and that's brought me a lot of comfort and understanding for both of them.

Speaker 5: 17:14

Yeah, I think I've been thinking for for many years why there exists no parental licensing, just like driving license, and Then just recently had a conversation with my psychology professor on that. She's also teaching in family, family Family counseling classes. She said, yeah, one One thing against like people are afraid that tyrannical, authoritarian governments can misuse this policy, choosing who can have children and who cannot, especially in countries like this, I mean. But then I told her like, what about? Like a world government not government like World Health Organization, of World Children Organization, imposing just basic fundamentals every parent in the world, like before their parents, have to just even no test, just go to classes for a few months or take online. You know, they just have to watch it. Let's say, no examination or maybe some examination Like it's like it will be so nice that children are protected worldwide by this, maybe, organization. So this is my take on it, but I don't know what could be the downsides to it. Maybe you have some idea.

Speaker 6: 18:28

You're not far off, because look, if we like I know it sounds crazy, darrell like to say these things, but guess what, we have co-parenting, like therapists we have that are giving parents certain rules of. Or if you have a co-parenting coordinator in your divorce, like it's funny, like wow, it sounds like we can't do that, but we're doing it. And yet I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth because I'm like to your point, darrell, like what are they? Like you have these rules, but there's no. Like nobody is having anyone you know have to abide by these parenting guidelines. It's pretty wild.

Speaker 1: 19:06

I think before what PA did for me was it gave me a ground, a foundation, because I did think about things like this before. But I realized that I'm not going to improve my life, my relationship with my daughters, by focusing on changing the legal system first for gender dynamics in society and the world first, or instituting a world government first. So I think that's why PA is important to me as a program of personal recovery and to lead with through example.

Speaker 7: 19:41

So what's coming up for me as you're speaking, darrell, too, is that, and the more I do recovery work, I give thanks to everything that's happened to me and my children up until this point, because it's led me to where I am today and there feels like there's great power in being an advocate for parental alienation and being able to interrupt the system.

Speaker 7: 20:03

And I have the power. I can put my energy into that and I could put my energy into trying to change the legal system and there's nothing wrong with different forms of advocacy, but this feels like a very powerful way. Every time I'm in a meeting, every time I'm in a phone call, every time I'm writing something for social media, that positive energy I'm putting in there helps to interrupt the system and for me it's an act of love. So it's an act of love for my kids, for community, for my ex-husband, for my parents that I'm estranged from and I didn't have an avenue for that love. I didn't know that that was in me until I started doing recovery work. And when I sit in sessions like this and I'm here, people sharing, and the energy and the vulnerability and there's so much strength in that, it just blows me away.

Speaker 1: 20:52

That's beautiful.

Speaker 3: 20:53

Yeah, I love that you're bringing everything's happening in this order and in a divine way, and I think that's a great question for everyone here Like, would you change anything? Like, would you change anything in your life in the direction that's taken to get you to the point that you're at, with seven random strangers being together having a conversation? What would you change Anything? Like anyone have anything to say about that?

Speaker 1: 21:18

I wouldn't. And just in the last month I've said something which I firmly believed I would never say, which is that in great times of trial and pain come unexpected gifts, and I hated it because I couldn't feel the truth of that. And I suddenly can. I wouldn't have married anybody else. I wouldn't have wanted anything different because I wouldn't have found out where I am now and where I want to go.

Speaker 4: 21:48

I couldn't agree with you more, Darryl. You know there was a time that I thought if I could have changed what happened all those years ago somehow it would have been different. But my husband and I often talk about the fact that we wouldn't be together if I was still with my children's father. There are many important stages in my life that would not have happened had I stayed in that marriage, and every single one of those growth stages, I believe now in hindsight, were valuable to who I've become as a person, and it wouldn't have happened had all of these events not taken place.

Speaker 2: 22:30

I just want to say that, as we've been talking, there was a moment where I actually did have to turn off the camera and walk away, because this is very emotional. I get it's a privilege to hear Darryl you're coming to the table, not only as an alienated parent, but you are kids that came from that, that family system, and it's very hard for me to sometimes keep it in perspective because, though I am in a recovery mode, there are times and, being the time of the year, it I want to implode on myself and beat myself up and look at all the things I didn't do right. Recovery is telling me, as I sit with us and listen to all of you, that I need to honor that. I am taking back my life. I am doing hard internal work on myself to put that energy out to my family, hoping that my children are feeling that healing, that my parents, who I have been estranged from on and off throughout my life, but I am regaining a relationship with them.

Speaker 2: 23:54

I need to remind myself I wouldn't be where I am today had I not divorced my ex-husband. I would have never made discoveries and found richness in a life of healing. So I'm not going to excuse the grief or the emotions. My emotions are real and if I cry, I have to remind myself it is strength and I am a sensitive person and it's so beautiful to have you all sit here and in my mind I'm thinking to myself there's going to come a day, god willing, that my children, who have chosen to step away, will come back to me, and the tools that I am growing inside of me are going to help me be present with ears wide open to say I just want to listen, tell me how you felt, and that's a beautiful opportunity.

Speaker 3: 24:59

I would say for me, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't be sitting in this room with parents and children that were previously alienated and people that have been reconnected with their kids and I would say like this is my opportunity to continue parenting. Like the parenting where you wake up with your kids every day and in the house with them every day is challenging, but this kind of parenting takes a lot of resilience and a lot of energy and a lot of struggle. And what a beautiful opportunity I get to be a parent and no one can take that away from me. And being here and everything that I've got through has created this moment in time that I get to spend with you folks. And I think this is this is profound parenting. I think we profound, profound parenting, profound. I don't know what young adults that would be that are previously alienated, but it's profound in every single direction. So I wouldn't have, wouldn't change anything.

Speaker 6: 25:55

Easy for you guys to say I would change everything. What would you change? I would change Wow.

Speaker 3: 26:03

Yeah, and I use the word wow, wow a lot and what an intense show and what a great thing when you get a group of folks together that are being incredibly vulnerable and sharing their life stories. And the second episode is like wow, wow, wow, like it's gonna blow your mind and thank you for listening and thank you for being part of the community and taking this journey with us today.

Speaker 2: 26:25

For me, big breath out. The show brought so much intensity to me. I have to tell you that at one point I did have to shut my camera off, take a breath, grab a Kleenex and was able to step back in. But just stories from the heart, some of it hard to hear but beautiful nonetheless. And can I just remind everyone again also, as you watch the podcast, be sure you're subscribing, liking and following our social media, our Facebook and our Instagrams.

Speaker 3: 26:59

And just another quick reminder that our email is in the show notes. It's familydisappeared at gmailcom. If you have a question for Geo, if you have a question for me or just a community at large, please let us know. This podcast is a representation of everyone and we want to make sure that everyone has a seat at the table. So anyone that's not getting represented, anyone out in the marginalized communities. We want you to have a voice and we want to create that for you, so reach out to us. Let us facilitate that. Give you space to talk, co-host the show, whatever that looks like like. We want this to be community-based, so everyone out there.

Speaker 3: 27:34

If someone hasn't told you yet today, I love you, have a beautiful day and we will see you soon. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.