Bridging the Divide: Relationships in the Shadow of Parental Erasure PART 2 - Episode 35

Ever struggled with the delicate dance of blending families and navigating the shadows of parental alienation? I know I have. This week on Family Disappeared, join me, Lawrence Joss, alongside Steve and Alain—both fellow alienated parents—for a candid discussion on these intricate dynamics. We peel back the layers of introducing new partners to our children, the art of cultivating self-awareness, and the pivotal role communication plays in mending and forging family bonds. 

Building a family amidst the remnants of alienation is akin to treading a tightrope of emotions. Steve opens up about finding strength in the empathy of his spouse, whose own battle scars from alienation bring a depth of understanding to their union. As we traverse the landscape of these formidable ties, we discover the necessity for emotional boundaries, and the profound effects our partner's support can have on our own willingness to be vulnerable. Our collective tales give voice to the silent hopes that life's milestones might just be the catalysts for healing fractured relationships.

The act of reconnecting with a child after alienation is a journey laden with a mix of trepidation and elation. We delve into the emotional intricacies of parental reconnection, highlighting the flux of joy and apprehension when a child signals readiness to rebuild bridges. Our conversation serves as a beacon of cautious optimism for those fostering rekindled ties, emphasizing the importance of savoring triumphs while staying grounded. For anyone bracing the path of reconnecting, or simply seeking to be more present for their children, this episode is an affirmation of the resilience of the parental spirit in the face of adversity.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I think that she is able to discuss it. I think, when I didn't have good containment of it myself, like I didn't have a support group to talk to and other people were in the same situation I do, I think I for me I allowed it to spill over too much into our day-to-day connection and I think the solution to that was me figuring out what process I needed to work for myself so that it didn't bleed over into our relationship.

Speaker 2: 0:32

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi all, my name is Lauren Stross and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. It's great to have you along today for our adventure, and this is going to be part two of just the panel of parents talking about what it looks like navigating new marriages, new families and the intersection between parental alienation and now new spouses and their potential kids and whoever else is involved in the family system. We started the conversation last week and it was really interesting and there's some provocative questions and ideas and some really great insights that the folks are sharing with us. So stick around for the episode. It's going to be something and if you haven't subscribed yet, please hit the button below. If you're on YouTube or wherever you are hit, subscribe, like, join the community, wonderful resources and the show notes. Come out and check out the free 12-step meetings, life changing, life affirming. If you're struggling, isolated alone, don't know where to go, be doing this by yourself for so long, come out and join us, check it out. If you feel like you're completely different than us, come on out and check it out. If you feel like you can't possibly sit in a room and hear about people's experiences, come out, check it out. You don't have to share it. You can just kind of like take the temperature check and see if it's healing. So with that, let's jump into this next part of the episode.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So, like I said on the last episode, like I was really intentional about not introducing my children to people that I happened to just be dating no, casually dating. It didn't feel like it was appropriate. I didn't want them to be on this emotional roller coaster getting invested in different people. I didn't feel responsible. And you know, 17, 18 years into this, would I have changed that behavior? I don't think so. There does feel something that I missed, and what I really missed was not knowing what parental alienation was not knowing about all the moving forces that were in the background.

Speaker 2: 2:59

So I would say this for me, as I embark on new relationships and as I embark on just navigating life and friendships, intimate relationships, whatever it might look like, like I have learned through the 12 step program and through nonviolent communication to be really clear about what's happening for me and to share in a kind and useful way. You know and I continue to have a relationship with my 23 year old daughter and we bump into some of these conversations that even three or four years ago I think I really would have screwed up. You know, when I say I would have screwed up, I wouldn't have been mean, I wouldn't have been violent, I wouldn't have been yelling. But some of my ideas that I tried to imprint onto my daughter so she could buy into my version of reality, you know are harmful. And I will say, with incorporating other family members and stuff, like I really have learned to follow out what my intention?

Speaker 2: 3:50

Because I have really good intentions, I think, and I think a lot of us do.

Speaker 2: 3:54

But then, beyond the intention, I talk about this often as the impact.

Speaker 2: 3:57

So, like I have an intention to include my daughter's in a conversation on my intention to tell people stuff and I don't take into account, like the impact in their lives or the disruption or some other stuff that might happen with them.

Speaker 2: 4:09

So this is a great conversation and if you're in that place where you're trying to figure out how to navigate this next part of your life and to do it in a useful way, as you struggle with the semblance of parental alienation or estrangement or anything else, working on yourself for me is the doorway, and it's an imperfect science and it's not linear and it changes, and the more that I practice, the better that it gets. And with that being said, let's jump into the second part of this episode, as this alienation, estrangement, reconnection, whatever is happening is going on, do you find your spouse disconnecting from the idea of the kids, like basically like shutting down and pulling away and not really wanting to engage in the idea of a thought of them, kind of like they're protecting themselves and closing down and don't want to necessarily continue to be part of those conversations. And I'm going to start with you, la.

Speaker 3: 5:04

No, my spouse is very in the thick of things and the sense that she, like I said, I share with her what's going on, the issues, the progress, the recovery, and she sees also the good things that are happening, especially lately with my son. So even when things were really hard, she was being supportive in the sense that she would remind me that it was just a period presently it was bad but eventually it will get better. And she's always reminded me of her having her door open. I remember her asking me at Christmas do you wanna reach out to? Well, she's asking me if I wanted to reach out to my son to invite him for Christmas time and stuff like that, and because we weren't ready I would be the one taking it slow. So I feel that she's always been very supportive.

Speaker 2: 6:33

That's wonderful. It sounds very supportive and that she's still emotionally invested in it and is not kind of pulling away. That's very sweet. And what about you, steve? How does that look in your relationship?

Speaker 1: 6:45

Yeah, I would say in my relationship I would feel very similar to LA. My spouse has been supportive beyond really what I could have expected in a spouse, honestly, with this kind of challenge. I think because she has experienced alienation herself with her own children. I think that she really truly does understand that the children are put in the middle. This isn't something they would choose or they would want.

Speaker 1: 7:22

It's not ideal for them, and so I think for her she really does help stay in that spot of kind of if I get into kind of a mode of like, oh, that felt that didn't feel so great or that why did that happen? Or why did I get this reaction as response, she's very able to come in and support and say, hey, this isn't the kids. They're in the middle and always very good to help give perspective. I've felt so. I don't think it's been. Yeah, I feel very supported, I guess, and I don't feel like it's kind of been a wedge, and she actually would welcome re-communication with my children at any time. There would obviously have to be some amends that would be made at some point just over some of the things that have happened over the years, but she's very open to that and supportive.

Speaker 2: 8:26

Thank you for that. And in my experience my partner was really supportive and really loving. But my partner is a separate individual for me who has feelings too and her feelings get hurt you know what I mean. And she's not willing to invest emotionally as much as she was and we're not together anymore. But in the past she would get burnt out because she's also getting rejected and she's also not being included. She's not even a human being in some aspects when some of the anger is directed directly at her and she could be a cup, a person, a wall, but there's a lot of energy coming in her direction and she has to pull away emotionally to some degree.

Speaker 2: 9:05

I see my parents do that, I see my sister doing that. They can't be as emotionally invested and I'm hearing like neither of you really experienced that. You're still experiencing your spouses as emotionally invested and you don't notice those nuances of them having to shut down as an individual separate from you, not in supporting you or taking care of you, but as an individual separate from you just taking care of themselves. You're not experiencing that. Your present wife did she continue to have a relationship with your son when you weren't having a relationship with him?

Speaker 3: 9:36

No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all, not at all, because everything was going through me.

Speaker 2: 9:40

So she never had a direct relationship, one-on-one with your kid. It was always no, no, coming through, got it. Okay, cool, and Steve, you had said your current wife had a relationship with your kids and then didn't have a relationship with your kids and, as an individual, like, how did you see her coping with that?

Speaker 1: 9:58

Yeah, honestly, one of my children actually worked at her business for a summer and my son, who was younger and lived with us 50% of the time before the alienation. They were planning Sounds funny, but they were planning trips that she they both loved to travel and so they were planning trips and thinking about the future and all that kind of stuff. And I remember one time my wife was speaking to my son and said I'm going to convince your dad to start doing more traveling to do some of these trips and stuff. So they had a really close relationship and I do think that she did extend herself and connect with my children and I do think the alienation she felt very hurt by it because she did have a relationship with them individually, aside from just through me. She actually connected with them on different things and, yeah, I think it was pretty hard for her. I think she felt the loss too.

Speaker 2: 11:07

And does she feel like really emotionally present when you are talking about the kids and engaging with the kids, or do you feel like she's had to put up a certain degree of a boundary, a wall, whatever you want to call it to protect herself? Are you feeling that dynamic in the relationship or not?

Speaker 1: 11:25

I think that she is able to discuss it. I think when I didn't have good containment of it myself, like I didn't have a support group to talk to and other people were in the same situation, I do I think for me I allowed it to spill over too much into our day-to-day connection and I do think there were times where I think the solution to that was me figuring out what process I needed to work for myself so that it didn't bleed over into our relationship. I think she was willing to talk about it at any time but didn't want it to be a 24-7, ongoing, every waking moment type of thing, which is where it can feel like it is initially, when you get confronted with the depth of the loss and despair of being disconnected from your own kids.

Speaker 2: 12:22

Thank you for that, ian. The early days and months, years, can definitely feel like a vacuum and everything gets sucked into it and it's hard to find yourself. So thanks for saying that out loud. And I know everyone here has young adult children and there's this idea that we have. I always was struggling with it once they turn 18 or once they move out of the house, like you're going to see a distinct shift in the relationship, and starting with you first, even did you A have the idea, like 18 moving out is going to be a change, and has there been a change with either of your kids that you can track specifically to the moving out of the house? Or even if it's at a later age and they're done with college and moving out, like have you been able to track some kind of seminal point or Something like that?

Speaker 1: 13:12

you know, with my, with my daughter, because we started, even though the court awarded 5050 custody, when she was 13, my son was 8. She never really came, ever came to my house during for custodial times, as I said before. So I had hoped that I went to. Like I said, I went to all her high school activities Anywhere that I could attend I did. We spent time together sporadically, but not extensively, at my residence. Again, that was a choice by me not to litigate at that time, but I did have the hope that when she left for college and got on her own kind kind of out of the I don't even know what the best way is to say this got out of the environment of someone who was actively alienating, that things would change and unfortunately, in in the situation with my daughter, they didn't change as I had hoped. So and they still are not changed to this day, besides the invitation to the wedding recently with my son.

Speaker 1: 14:36

He just recently left for college and I would say there is been. There has been some change. I had those 2 reunification counseling sessions that opened up Some communication and there have been emails going back and forth sharing about what's going on in his life and me sharing what's going on here and asking him questions. There's not a lot of, there's only I only had 1 in person connection with him when I went to visit him Shortly after college started, and there hasn't been anything since then. But I would say there has been a shift when he left home and I'm not sure what that shift is because I don't know what it is on his side, but he's at least willing to communicate via email and for right now I've accepted that that's what's comfortable for him and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 15:22

Some here and like the relationships are different with both of the kids and there's no set rules. And with your son there's definitely a shift in your kind of exploring what that is and and your daughter? There wasn't any and the wedding sounds like a possible beginning of some, some kind of movement and I think the moving out, the starting college, of the getting married is all seminal events in young people's lives that can be access points and opportunities. And LA, what about you with your, your child turning 18 or moving out of the house to college? Have you seen a shift or is that being your shift at all?

Speaker 3: 15:54

Yes, I definitely did see a change in his mindset when he started living by himself. That is when my relationship started to rekindle with him. We were talking once a week, once every two weeks on the phone, exchanging emails. During the pandemic we would do activities together you know training, you know having dinner on, you know virtual dinner together and stuff like that. And it's when, during those three years his, his, when he was living by himself his mom was out of the country and when she came back, that's when the LA nation got worse, so things were getting better, and then when she came back, things really got worse and it was even worse than than what it was beforehand. So there does seem to be a relationship between. You know the closeness or the distance between the alienating parent and the child and how the alienation is being expressed. That's, that's what I've seen.

Speaker 2: 17:36

And your relationship the last three or four months. You had said there's there's a shift and how old is your son now? And the shift is directly related to him moving out again or starting college or getting married. I'm not quite clear what the shift is.

Speaker 3: 17:49

I don't know what, what brought the change of mind, but I just know that there is a shift, that is an openness now from for the last couple of months. That was not there before, so I have not discussed with him why it is, but there is definitely an openness the way he speaks. The summer he was the one that asked if he could come and visit me, so he came for almost a week at my place and we had fun, we connected, it was, it was excellent and but it was on his agenda, or it was him opening the door and he even verbalized it, saying that he wanted to rekindle relationship and, to you know, start with on new basis.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Well, that sounds really, really beautiful and I'm really excited to hear more about that as as it evolves, because it's a curiosity, and I hear that he's reaching out, he's generating energy, he's he's getting to the age where he's able to ask for what he wants and you're fully available and you're doing work on yourself and and it makes this this a great opportunity for both of you that's. That's very sweet and tapping into both of you reconnect into certain degrees in different ways with your kids. What emotions come up for you as you're getting a tiny bit more access in different kind of ways, and what expectations come up with those emotions? And I'm going to start with you first, la. What kind of emotions are coming up for you this last three or four months, and are these these expectations and these fantasies or these ideas that come along with that?

Speaker 3: 19:49

Fear, fear, fear is is present because it's the counterpart is Joy to see that, oh my God, that at his age he's able to have his eyes open and to see what's going on, he's able to stand on his two feet, stand his ground and have the intelligence to see what is happening and to be emotionally mature to do all this work that he's doing, and so that's great. For me, the feeling that I have when I see this, when I see this with my son, it's like wow, but at the same time I'm fearful that this could go away in a snap of the finger. So, at the same time, because of the reality of parental alienation, where you have kids that are 50 years old and that did not reconnect with their parents and did not let their grandparent, grandkids, you know connect with their grandparents. So there is that reality out there. So for me, I try to temper my joy and to just take it one day at a time.

Speaker 2: 21:37

That's beautiful. Now I'm hearing the joy as a parent and as a father just watching your young adult child step into some of their own power and their own agency, and there's a lot of love, appreciation, enjoying that, that. I'm hearing you and then the opposite side is all this can get pulled out at any second and I don't really understand what's really happening. I'm enjoying it, but because I don't have more understanding of the dynamics that are happening and I'm not sure if the fear gets really kicked up. And do you have an expectation what this is going to look like in a year, or you just like what's going to do, whatever it's going to do?

Speaker 3: 22:12

I do not want to have an expectation because, like the first step says, I'm powerless so I just have to accept what is happening. So I try not to have an expectation. So I'm hopeful that it just will not revert to full-fledged alienation. But I'm really mindful that I should not break out the champagne and to say it's over.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Totally, and I love that you're working a recovery program and an emotional program where you don't have those expectations, you don't drag yourself down the bunny hole, because so many of us get caught up in that loop and we willingly jump into those dark spaces and down the bunny hole because it's familiar and I'm hearing that you're keeping those expectations at bay. So I think that's really healthy and I appreciate you sharing that. And, steve, what about you? Like? What emotions come up as you have these touch points with your son and your daughter, and are there expectations for what's going to happen next?

Speaker 1: 23:29

Yeah, I would say much the same to what Elaine shared. I would say I put it under the title of guarded optimism. So there's definitely fear and unease, but there's also joy and expectation, and how to balance those two in a place where I don't get up-regulated or dysregulated. I try to focus, I guess, at each stage. Right now I'm having an occasional. I've had just a few emails with my daughter, but it's mainly about insurance and I think my gut feeling is that things will go back to silent, whereas with my son I'm having an every other week email update that we go back and forth on, and I think I'm just really working on staying in a place where I just take, like Elaine said, one day at a time. I just take the relationship where it is right now.

Speaker 1: 24:36

I try not to think about what the future I mean. I do have a hope that I will have that family connection that I once had and that it will be even better and different and unbelievably great in ways that I don't even understand or comprehend. But right now it's not that and so I have to temper that with. This is a situation today. This is how I can respond to it today and really working on the idea that I just want to be the best human being and dad that I can be when and if my kids decide that they would like to have more contact with me, and that's where I try to keep my focus, because the rest of it is, as Elaine said, is out of my control.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Yeah, yeah, I hear that and I hear the complexities of the two different relationships and feeling a little bit more continuity with your son and maybe a little bit more challenged with your daughter, and also that recovery and putting expectations in an appropriate place where it's not ruling your life is what your answer is and I'll share. For me, in March was my birthday and my middle daughter reached out for the first time in three or four years and we texted a little bit and I feel like I've done a lot of work and I can communicate pretty clearly and ask in a useful way if there's anything that I'd like. And I've let her lead the conversation and I have all kinds of expectations. Like I have an expectation for the relationship to change. I have an expectation to see my daughter, I have an expectation to meet my grandchildren. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 26:06

And in those expectations I've created a lot of harm for myself because none of that stuff has happened and I like what Elaine had to say is that he's son's leading the conversation, that he's pacing in the way that he wants and Elaine doesn't even know what's precipitating this.

Speaker 2: 26:20

So I think there's a lot of wisdom there that I'm going to learn from you today, elaine. So I really appreciate that and when I say I'm going to learn, I listen. Then maybe I'll apply it or maybe I'll laugh at myself up in the discomfort and pain and just sit with that, because it's familiar, it's not useful, so don't do that at home. It's not useful, but it's familiar and unfortunately we do the familiar sometimes out of habit. So to follow up on that question, as you're having some connection with your kids, do you feel like alienation is still present and part of the conversation and basically has its own seat at the table? Like I use that analogy a lot Like there's still something there with me, even though I'm interacting with my child? And we'll start with you first, steve Do you feel like alienation has a seat, has an inertia, has a power or some kind of some dynamic in those relationships?

Speaker 1: 27:20

Yeah, I do. I think it again. The way I look at it is the kids unfortunately, aren't given a choice in this situation. Now my daughter is older now and I think she does have a choice as an adult, but when it started she did not have a choice. And I think it does have a power because it's to me it starts right as the idea of the child having to make a choice between one of the two parents, right. So that has its.

Speaker 1: 27:54

There's an inertia there to maintain the connection with the I guess you call it the I don't want to say the favorite parent Maybe that's not the right term, I don't know what it's, what exact the right term is but the parent that's chosen versus the alienated parent.

Speaker 1: 28:10

I do think as time goes on, the longer it goes, there is some inertia to that state of affairs becoming normal and becoming normalized for the child, to where that's accepted. And then you have, of course, all kinds of family dynamics that would make potentially alienation or disconnection more comfortable. If that's been in the extended family or through the lineage in multiple generations, I think it makes it. Yes, I do think it has has an inertia and sometimes that inertia feels like it's really hard to overcome and, to be honest, I don't even sometimes know what, how to overcome it, other than me showing up as the best version of myself and being available in, in useful, in a way to support my children when they are needing support, and and just being the best version of myself for them when, when, when and if they need me.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Thank you, thank you for that. And you spoke to the idea that the kids, the young adults, adults, whatever age they are I'm just using the word kids to cover that whole spectrum that they have a lived experience, and this is their lived experience and their reality is that this other parent is the primary parent in their lives and that becomes the lens that they're looking through, and so that that's what I heard, that you feel you're navigating that new lens, that new prescription per se. You know, as as again, as another metaphor, they have a new prescription for life and it's a little bit different than your prescription.

Speaker 3: 29:48

Yes.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Yep, and there and in our case there was on my ex's side of the family there's a lot of disconnection. There's a lot of people being cut out of the family when they don't act in an acceptable or appropriate manner, or sometimes they act in a manner which is really unhealthy. Some of it's really unhealthy, some of it's just that there's this, there's this response to when things don't go well in a relationship. We just cut people out rather than learning how to work through relationships and develop community and build relationships and work through difficult times, and that's that's sort of hard to overcome when your children see that as a pattern as well.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Right, right. So the environment definitely influences how they behave in other relationships. And, and, elaine, how does it feel in your relationship? Does it feel like parental alienation or the dynamics of that are part of your conversation and part of something you have to navigate each time you connect with your son.

Speaker 3: 31:01

Well, parental alienation is present in my relationship with my son, mainly in the form of fear of stepping on some mind, on some unexploded mind. So it's so that we, you know, the relationship, does not revert to to what it was. So it's a constant fight of letting go and not feeling that I'm walking in a mind field or walking on eggshells and just what will happen, happen and just to be free and free, free flowing in the relationship and the dynamics and the exchanges. So I think for me, right now, that's the way parental alienation is expressing itself with my, you know, in that dynamic with my son.

Speaker 2: 32:13

Right. So I'm hearing like fear, unexploded manlike minds, and that you're just trying to navigate stuff as best as you can, but there's always something around the corner that you're not quite sure what that is and you just don't want to exactly crossing fingers like, okay, I don't need to say something, but yeah, so mainly it's managing that, that internal fear, so that I don't have that weight constantly on my shoulders.

Speaker 3: 32:49

So it's really dissipating that. That's challenging.

Speaker 2: 32:56

And that's wonderful. I appreciate it, both of your answers, and for me and my relationship with my youngest daughter I have a relationship with, is, I feel parental alienation. At a seat in the table Right, and it might not even be me or my daughter, but it's part of the family system. That's you know, the stars and the moon and the sun that's there, that is affecting like the gravitational force in our conversation and, depending where we're sitting, it looks different for each of us. So I feel like that's never going to leave and that's always going to be part of the conversations because it's part of both of our loved realities and they're different. They're both different but they're both real.

Speaker 2: 33:34

So well, there's a lot in the conversation today and there's some bunch of stuff that came up that we didn't really get to discuss. But as we're winding down here, like, what do you want to let anyone know that that's struggling in the beginning of parental alienation, someone that might have no contact or someone that's just starting to have contact again? What would be the two most important things you would like to share about your journey in recovery or not, or something not to do? So, if you can both, give me just like two things that you'd like to share before you wrap up the show, and we'll start with you, la, and then we'll go to you, steve.

Speaker 3: 34:12

What I learned and the most important tool that I learned is the powerless accepting the powerlessness. Accepting that you know I cannot control what my son thinks or what my ex is going to say or think, but if you're really letting go and accepting this powerlessness, not trying to have control on the outcome of the relationship, trying to mend, it, is the first recommendation that I would give. Accepting is accept that your child has the intelligence in seeing through the this craziness which is parental alienation. Accepting that it may, the realization that that child will have may be quick and hopefully will be quick, and sometimes it'll take a bit longer. But trusting in the child's intelligence, insight, love, also trusting in their love for myself as they the parent, trusting in the good times that they'll remember the good times and realize that, yeah, they were true. So that, to me, is what I would say to other parents, because for me that really helped me out.

Speaker 1: 36:15

But I would say the first is I agree with what Laleigh said, with recognizing my powerless, but then maybe a step further, is recognizing my powerlessness and control over the situation, but recognizing God or my higher powers, control and understanding of the situation, that is far beyond mine. That would be probably number one. And then number two was I tried to force a lot of solutions, and forcing solutions can be anything from forcing your kids to have to communicate with you by over texting, over messaging, putting them in a position where they feel like they don't have a choice and they have to respond when they're not ready to. I just remember that there was a good period of time where I was trying to force solutions, and forcing solutions usually doesn't work, and it didn't work in my case. And then, maybe just slightly associated with that is also, there were times where I was really upset with my children for what was going on and I didn't realize, I didn't have the view that they're clearly have the view that they're suffering too, meaning that they might not even have recognized it yet they sometimes haven't come to a full understanding, as they're young they're either teenagers or they're young adults but that they're suffering too.

Speaker 1: 37:51

They're suffering a loss they're suffering the absence of a parent, which has gotta be I mean, in my mind, has gotta be heart-rending and giving compassion and love, giving just an abundance of compassion and love to my own children that they are also going through this difficulty called alienation, and it's not something they chose and it's not something they would choose, and so that's probably the last thing is just really being in a place of just really being able to share compassion and love for the situation and understanding the situation therein, rather than constantly thinking about the situation that I'm in.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Thank you for that, steve. And again, not forcing solutions, and also the realization that our kids are struggling too and they're suffering too, and it's just a rough situation. I think a lot of us, early on, come through the focus of my perspective and me and as a parent, how can you treat me this way? And everyone is struggling and everyone's suffering. So I love that and I love what you shared. Alei and gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the show and taking a little bit of time out to share some of your experience, strength and hope with the community, and I hope you both have a beautiful day.

Speaker 1: 39:05

Thank you, Lawrence, Thank you very much.

Speaker 3: 39:07

Lawrence. Thanks a lot, steve, that was great. Thank you, aleen.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Wow, wow, that was fun. That was a neat conversation and some different perspectives and some different voices to be heard on the show, which I think is really important. We do have quite a few folks that have been regulars and continue to share with us their life and their evolution, and to hear a couple new voices on the show is really rich and important, and we'd like to be as inclusive as we possibly can with anyone out there that has something to share or perspective, and we're always gonna share from a recovery basis, because this isn't about shaming, blaming or pointing things at other people. This is about emotional and spiritual change and this is about self-agency, and self-agency is us taking responsibility for how we show up in every relationship. Even though we're hyper-focused on the relationship with our kids or grandkids or parents, it's really about every single relationship, because wherever I go, there I am, and if I'm not working on myself, I'm just right back to the beginning. It's kind of like playing shoot some ladders, like I think I got something going on and I'm figuring it out, and then I go down a ladder and I'm at the bottom of the ladder and somehow I think it's a bad thing, but clearly there was something left for me to learn, and then I learned something different and I get back up to the ladder and hopefully, eventually I get to a different part of the game.

Speaker 2: 40:30

And with that being said, please like, subscribe. We're a 501, see if you're nonprofit, we can use your support. We'd love to expand the services and the trainings and all the different things that we offer and that are on hold for a certain part, until we're able to figure out the financial mechanism, and we look forward to seeing you on the next show. And, as always, we really enjoy and appreciate your support. And, in case no one's told you yet today, I love you.

Speaker 2: 40:57

I hope you're having a beautiful day. I hope, even amongst the struggles, that you can take a moment and just appreciate that you're showing up, that you're living your life to the best of your ability and you're putting that one foot in front of the other foot, and sometimes you go in sideways, sometimes you go in backwards, but you keep coming back. So, with that, have a beautiful day and we shall see you around the neighborhood. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode. If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.