How to Combat Parental Alienation, Estrangement, and Erasure Through Non-Violent Communication Part 2 - Episode 37

As an alienated father, I've walked the rocky path of connecting with my daughters through the thinnest of threads, and that's where I discovered the healing balm of Nonviolent Communication (NVC). With my guest, Mary Mackenzie, we unravel my journey, and offer you the tools to mend and deepen the bonds within your family, even when the waters of communication seem unnavigable. My story is one of listening, not just to the words of my daughters, but to the emotions and needs that drive us all, and it's a story I'm eager to share with you.

Through the lens of empathy and patience, especially in the turbulent teen years, we examine how to manage our own emotional tempests, and extend a bridge of understanding. I'll recount the surprising advantages of 'making wrong guesses' when attempting to empathize, a tactic that invites clarity and connection rather than distance. It's not just about weathering the storm, but learning the dance steps to move in harmony with the resistance of a blossoming young adult, respecting their pace and space.

In our heart-to-heart discussion, we pivot to the ripple effects of NVC in all facets of life, highlighting it's role in personal stress relief and enhanced communication. Mary and I also explore the channels of support such as the NVC Academy and community groups that offer solace to parents feeling the ache of estrangement. Glean wisdom from our open conversation, and consider this your invitation to practice NVC for more authentic, compassionate interactions that extend far beyond the family tree.

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Mary Mackenzie : www.marymackenzie.net
NVC : www.nvcacademy.com
"Taste of Compassionate Leadership" - nvcacademy.com/media/_live-nvc-courses/TOCL/index.html
"Non Violent Communication: A Language of Life" Marshall Rosenberg
Feelings and Needs sheets and local NVC trainers: cnvc.org
International Intensive Training: cnvc.org/learn/iit

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
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Gen Rodelas-Kajabi Expert
Kim Fernandez - Outreach Coordinator

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

And it hurts and it sucks for me and it hurts my heart and sucks for them too, that they're missing out on family and their reality is right now that there is no capacity for this. And that's real and true and valid. And I think MVC really gives us an opportunity to let our kids know that what they're experiencing is real, that their lived reality is real Just as much as mine is. It's not either or it's both, and we're both having our lived experiences, and they don't necessarily align all the time, and right now they don't. There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. The healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. So just to qualify for everyone out there. My name is Lawrence. I'm an alienated father. I have three daughters. I have a 29-year-old who I've had no contact with for eight years. I have a 26-year-old with mostly no contact for four years and a 21-year-old that I have regular contact with. And NVC has been a vital part of my relationships and my relationships have been on and off and NVC has really allowed me the opportunity to stay connected to my 21 year old daughter and NVC really allowed me the opportunity to stay connected to my 26 year old daughter for a lot of years. You know, I just want to say how important it's been and how important it's been for me to understand where my kids are coming from and when my, my daughters have made different decisions and shared different things about their lives or feelings about me. Like I've been able to hear that, hey, you know what I don't like you dad, you know what I mean. Like I don't necessarily want to have a relationship with you, and I've been able to reflect back to them that this feels overwhelming and life is really busy and this doesn't feel like a place that you necessarily have the capacity to spend time and it hurts and it sucks for me and it hurts my heart and sucks for them too that they're missing out on on family and their reality is right now that there is no capacity for this, and that's real and true and valid. And I think, think MVC really gives us an opportunity to let our kids know that what they're experiencing is real, that their lived reality is real Just as much as mine is. It's not either or it's both, and we're both having our lived experiences and they don't necessarily align all the time and right now they don't, and both of ours are valid and real. And NVC gives me an opportunity to be able to express that to my kids without invalidating myself.

Speaker 1: 2:49

Just because I'm expressing and reflecting back what they're feeling and where they are, it's not invalidating that my lived experience and my life experience is different. It's really a beautiful gift that I can give to myself. You think I'm giving it to my children, but by me understanding where they are, I'm really giving myself a gift, I'm giving myself a breath, I'm giving myself the opportunity to understand. It's very cathartic, it's very beautiful and the second part of the show is phenomenal. There's a really great takeaway about three quarters of the way through the show where Mary asked me a question. That is just really powerful.

Speaker 1: 3:22

And please remember to like, subscribe, share and, if you have the capacity and the available resources, please donate so we can continue to keep all these programs available to the community. You know, that's really what our ultimate goal is. And with that, let's jump into the show and see what happens, to play along with the community, to give them a couple different ideas. The show and see what happens, to play along with the community, to give them a couple different ideas. Like, say, I'm getting a text from my 16 year old daughter and, uh, you know, our, our relationships acrimonious, and I'm asking her if she's going to see me this weekend. She's like hey, no, dad, I'm not going to see you. Um, I, you know what, I don't have any time. I don't really like you right now. Like, how would you respond in a short text to something like that, mary?

Speaker 2: 4:06

Honestly, lawrence, the first thing I would do is go inside before I said anything to the daughter. I'd be like, whoa, that hurts. Oh, I feel really hurt. I feel really disappointed. Oh, I wish we could connect in a different way. So that's the first thing. I would just settle myself and remind myself what it is that I want in this relationship. I'll tell you what I'd like to do next. But if I couldn't do it, I would reach out to a friend and talk to a friend before I started writing back. What I would like to say to the daughter is a little context would help, but it might be that she's not trusting, maybe something like it sounds. Like you're not trusting that if you spent time with me, that it would be fun for you, like you're not trusting that if you spent time with me, that it would be fun for you, or that we would have a good time or you don't trust that we'd find a way to have a good time.

Speaker 2: 4:57

I'd want to just empathize with her and not try to get her to do anything, just try to understand what's happening in her. And the truth is I might guess wrong. I mean, that might be not it at all, that might be not at all what's going on with her. But if I think of it like moving in, if I move into the conversation, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get more information from her, or the chances are good that I will. That'll help me understand better.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Totally no. No, I love those suggestions and just a couple of other ideas for people out there. If I'm getting an acrimonious text from my daughter and she's expressing anger, like I want to acknowledge, yeah, yeah, this is, this is really hurtful and you're really frustrated with me and you don't want to see me Like I want to acknowledge those things by acknowledging where she's at and meeting her where she's at, we have a better chance of connecting. I don't need to prove her wrong. I don't need to give any information to show that she's wrong. I just need to meet her where there is and there's this important thing about MVCs, really putting ourself aside so we can just meet those people's needs and feelings. And once we meet those needs and feelings, then we actually get into the conversation.

Speaker 1: 6:01

And you said a couple really interesting things, mary, that I think are really important for people to self-empathy. You said I'm going to start with myself. I'm going to get something that's upregulating from anyone in my life, but particularly from my kids or grandkids, and I go to myself. So you're figuring out what you need as an individual, what you need as a person, acknowledging that this is really really painful.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 6:22

And is that something you generally do? When you bump into something hard, whether it's at work with a relative, with anything, do you usually go to yourself first and to your body first?

Speaker 2: 6:31

I do. It's the first thing that I do. Otherwise, I'm reacting and what I'm trying to do is not react so much but be thoughtful about it. Remember what is it that I'm wanting? So, for instance, with this 16 year old daughter ultimately I'm wanting to have a relationship with her. So reacting to her out of anger, that's not going to get me that. And so I want to just remind myself of because I think lots of times we were either reacting or we're just pretending we're not hurt, but we are hurt and I, at the least, want to be honest about it with myself that yes, that hurts my feelings and I'm so frustrated that I'm still dealing with this. What is it going to take for us to move through it? I want to be honest that that's hard for me, and then I want to take that softening that I get from that and bring it to the conversation.

Speaker 2: 7:21

And I want to say something else, that sort of speak to something else you said, which is I think it takes a ton of patience to do these things, to regain a relationship, to develop trust in a relationship where there's been some kind of breach of trust. It takes a lot of time and it's painful. It is not easy for anybody, and so a lot of how I think about these things is having patience and taking our time, like just listening to the 16 year old daughter, for instance, say like what you said, I hear you're still angry, you're really angry and not trusting that we're going to have fun together or whatever, not trusting me or whatever, whatever the thing is, and just continue to acknowledge that and trust that on the other side of that there'll be, there'll be places possibly to reconnect.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Yeah, I love the patience word. That's incredibly important. This isn't a short game. This is not a red pill or a pink pill that we're going to get an instant gratification.

Speaker 1: 8:19

This is, this is a lifestyle, like we said in the beginning, and I love the idea of starting with ourselves and even acknowledging yelling, screaming, writing, angry writing, getting the stuff out and with the empathy like we're allowed to be mad, we're allowed to be frustrated, we're allowed to think you know some wonky stuff Sometimes it's human and you know what Self-empathy love it. And the second thing you said is if you have a friend to call someone that's not so enmeshed in this idea or this feeling and it's not so raw with them, like like that's a really great strategy and a great strategy to run a comment back, like if you have someone that you trust with communication or might be coming out of the mvc community or something like that, I'm presuming that's the kind of person if you're going to respond, that you're just reaching out to get some kind of support. Would that be kind of your mode.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Absolutely, and I myself am a believer in having regular times when I meet certain people. Like I have an empathy buddy that I meet with. I actually have two that I meet with once a month. I've been in all kinds of women groups over the years. There's something about having a regular time when you meet with people that can be really healing, so you don't always have to get on the phone and call someone Like it's just Tuesday, so it's time to get together with your friends or whatever. I think that's really important.

Speaker 1: 9:45

That sounds very healing. And empathy buddies no one knows out there what is empathy buddies. But if you go on an MVC retreat or you're just doing a day long something or even shorter practices sometimes, you usually paired with an empathy buddy and you spend time with an empathy buddy doing empathy. You don't spend time arguing about the color of the room. You spend time giving the other person empathy, taking guesses and sometimes being wrong and sometimes being right, but really practicing your skill and I love that, with the years and years of experience that you have, that you're still meeting with empathy buddies on a regular basis. I think that's phenomenal and just expanding out the idea of empathy buddies is actual practice groups for MVC around the world, correct?

Speaker 2: 10:29

Yes, there are, and not all of them, but many of them are free.

Speaker 1: 10:33

That's wonderful and, again, it's a great place to learn. It's a great place to get some vocabulary on feelings, because we're really trying to identify the needs that people are having, the feelings behind the needs, and then from that place we can go out and connect with folks. And you also said something when you were talking about your parents, that sometimes you would guess wrong. Right, and this isn't a framework that needs to be done right, this is a connection and wrong guesses sometimes, I think, are better than right guesses right. They create some kind of energy in a different opening in a conversation.

Speaker 2: 11:08

I think they are Lawrence, because even with a wrong guess, at least you're trying to understand. I mean you're demonstrating that you're trying to understand what's going on in the other person. And so if you guess wrong, you're still a little step ahead. And the thing is, people will tell you. I mean they'll say no, I'm not angry, I'm hurt, I'm so hurt that you did this. I mean they'll give you more information and when you get more information then you both have can have a sense of relief just in the understanding of each other. I think what a lot of us do is we get scared and we leap out of conversations because the person says no. So it's like fine then and we just walk away. What we try to teach a nonviolent communication is stay in it as best you can. Stay in it. Meet the person, meet them in that no, try to understand the no as an example.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Well, that's great. Like going back to this fictitious 16 year old, let's say, now we're going up to a 22 year old, so developmentally it changes a little bit and they're just saying, no, I don't want to see you. Like, how do you meet them in that? No, no, I don't want to see you. Where do you go with that?

Speaker 2: 12:19

I think that. So first of all, I'd want to see if I understand what their no is about, and so maybe at this point you have a sense.

Speaker 2: 12:30

Maybe there's been some sort of breach of trust and you understand that at this point. If you don't understand it, then I think that's really hard, then I think you want to try to understand it. But let's say that you do. Then the conversation might be something more like can you imagine a world when you and I could meet and have a cup of coffee? Or can you imagine what would need to happen for you to be willing to have a 15 minute conversation with me, where we get to hear each other's voices and we get to just say hello?

Speaker 2: 13:06

As a start, I would want to see is there any way that we can dip our toe into the possibility of reconnecting? And I would go with almost anything that they suggested. If they want their friend Bernie to come with them, I mean I would be tempted to have Bernie in the room, if that's what it takes. Or they want a therapist there, yep, I would show up with a therapist. I mean, there might be some situations where I'd say no, but I would want to try to meet them in whatever they could imagine. And if in the end we still came up with nothing, then I think I might say something like I'd like to reach out to you in the next quarter or next month or whatever some kind of timeframe to see if anything shifted for you. Are you good with that? I mean I'd want to see if I can make any kind of movement at all.

Speaker 1: 14:07

Yeah, I really enjoy the idea of. Can you imagine? It's a provocative question that gives them agency and an opportunity to recreate a potential meeting any way that they want. So I love that. And again you're bringing up. If that doesn't work, which I think is such an important thing to talk about over and over again is to give a timeframe for the next communication. Give a timeframe. Is it okay next quarter? Is it okay next month? I'm going to reach out in two weeks or I'm going to reach out on Tuesdays and just see if something shifts on Tuesdays, just so their nervous system can get prepared and understand what's coming next. And just that little bit is part of MVC too, because it's prepping. Everyone's nervous system is taken into account, whatever they're struggling with in their life too.

Speaker 2: 14:50

Yeah, I also think it's just so imperative to keep our end of the bargain. So if we agree that I'm going to reach out December 10th, by God, I'm going to reach out on December 10th. Come hell or high water, I'm going to reach out on December 10th, if that's our agreement, because I want to continually show, in as many little ways as I can, that I'm trustworthy and that this relationship matters to me. So I think that's really, really important. And if they say we don't want to hear from you until January 30th, I don't want to reach out to them until January 30th, though it might be really painful for me. Instead, reach out to a friend or a therapist or somebody else and tell them how sad and disappointed you are that you're not able to talk to your loved one.

Speaker 1: 15:39

That sounds really important and really useful, and within the community there's a lot of people that are writing like amends letters or different frames of letters to their children, and is there a framework with MVC to send out an amends letter or to connect with people like that? Have you seen that? Or is anyone practicing something like that men's letter or to connect with people like that?

Speaker 2: 15:58

Have you seen that, or is anyone practicing something like that?

Speaker 2: 16:00

Not a specific framework, but if I was going to write a letter like that, I would frame it so that the beginning part was about expressing empathy for the other person and owning up to whatever.

Speaker 2: 16:11

If there is something that I did, because sometimes there are estrangements, and I mean honestly, sometimes we don't even know what it's about. I do think that happens sometimes and I think sometimes it's clear to us that maybe we made a decision that had a negative impact on the other person. Sometimes that's not that clear and sometimes we don't see ourselves as the one that caused the problem. I mean, I think any of those things is possible, right, but even if I don't think I'm at fault, I still would want to start the letter with acknowledging the world from the other person's perspective. And when this happened this way, you thought it meant that I didn't love you or whatever the thing is. I just want to at least acknowledge it, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, and then later in the letter maybe I could talk about what my experience was like and what's going on with me.

Speaker 2: 17:12

And also I might just do it one step at a time. It might be a series of letters so that it's not just all one I might just end with. Is this what you would like to be heard? Am I right? Is this really what's so upsetting to you? And leave it at that in the first letter and hope that the person will write back and tell you more about what's going on with them and in another letter get to talk about your stuff? Does that make sense? What I'm saying?

Speaker 1: 17:37

That makes a lot of sense and it's an interesting strategy and breaking the letters up and stuff like that. And our community is so disconnected and it's so fragmenting in so many ways and the kids are fragmented, the adults are fragmented, like no one can really find a place to communicate. So, like really what you said starting the letter with is really the perspective of what the child, young adult or parent if you're writing that in that direction is going through really acknowledging. Well, dad, I know like you're, you know like life is really challenging and you're mad and upset and you know there's a lot of things in your life that are really important to you and I know trying to work out you know these challenging conflicts might not be a priority. Like you know, acknowledging over and over where the person is and meeting them there, and especially with young adults, teenagers, even adults if I'm 60, and my child's 40, I'm still want to acknowledge their reality and it's not personal.

Speaker 1: 18:43

You know what I mean I think this is a sticking point for a lot of people with MVC is, if I'm acknowledging your reality, that doesn't mean that I'm agreeing with you. It's got nothing to do with me. Me acknowledging your reality just means that I'm showing up and saying, yeah, wow, that's a rough day. That sounds like that was really painful and sucked a lot of energy out of your life. It's not erasing my reality, you know, and I'm seeing a lot of parents when they're feeling attacked is they want to set the record straight and tell the child what is actually happening from their perspective. And that's not empathy or compassion, right, that's just trying to prove a point, you know, and MVC is really about meeting the person where they're at. And I know I keep going back to this, but I think a lot of people are missing that that they're still trying to prove that they're right and that's not necessary because you're not saying that you're wrong.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Yeah, right, yes, and also, oh, how painful, how painful for people to be seen by their children in such a negative way when they don't see themselves in that way.

Speaker 2: 19:42

I mean it just must be utterly gut-wrenching, and I think being hurt at how painful that is by other people is probably going to get you farther. And starting by listening to your child or your parent, in that case, allowing them to be heard, I think, will go a long way, a long, long way, because from the other person's perspective, they might think they've never been heard, especially if they're a kid, because lots of times, frankly, kids just aren't heard very well by adults. So just allowing them a chance to be heard, you know, I remember one time the founder of Nonviolent Communication, marshall Rosenberg, told a story about how he thinks every teacher should get three hours of empathy for every one hour that they teach. It might be that parents, in these kind of situations, they might need more than that, but just an acknowledgement how painful it is to be in these kinds of relationships with your kids. I just would love you to get tons and tons of empathy.

Speaker 1: 20:46

I think that's a great segue into this different idea, right Like we're talking about communicating with our kids and our grandkids and sometimes our parents or other family members that we're restrained from, and what I'm hearing Mary say is like we as a community need to show up and give each other empathy, because we're not going to necessarily get this from fractured relationships right now or maybe ever, and the real place of grounding and embodiment and emotional safety is going to be with other folks that are struggling with the same thing, so we can actually step into these spaces and we can help heal the relationships with our children through connecting with other parents and other adults and other people that are practicing modalities like NVC and, I'm presuming, on retreat, like you're seeing this magic of healing happen happening where people are healing but not actually getting to talk to the person that they have this pain with or this fight with or this anger with, or something like that. Is that traditionally what you're seeing on retreats and with people doing the work?

Speaker 2: 21:44

Absolutely, and a lot of it is because we change our own perspective. We change our own way of thinking about a thing and we can fill up ourselves to a degree and realize that we can be whole people, even in your case, in this case, even if our children aren't going to speak to us we don't want that, it's not our first choice but we can have full lives, and so it takes out some of the pressure on the relationship, even if we can do a bit of our own healing. Actually, it takes a lot of the pressure out, not even a little bit. It takes a lot of the pressure out, and I loved what you said about supporting each other, especially because you would have a deeper understanding of what it might feel like to be a parent who was estranged from their children. I would think that would go a long way.

Speaker 1: 22:33

I agree, 100%, 100%.

Speaker 1: 22:34

And I also want to just touch on this nuance is like I came in and started practicing MVC because I had a pain point and I wanted to try solve something or figure something out and I didn't realize when I started practicing this that this was about every conversation with every single human being in my entire life.

Speaker 1: 22:52

And as I practiced it more, the door got bigger and bigger and bigger and it didn't become just focused on my kids. It become focused on how I interact and show up in the world and, like mary's saying, like the weight is lessened so much in my life because I'm looking at the other person's perspective and 95 percent of the time, or 98 percent of the time, I I'm not taking it personally anymore. My nervous system's not getting upregulated, I'm not getting stressed out, I'm not yelling at people for random reasons Like I'm understanding wow, they're just having a rough day and they don't have capacity to have a conversation with me. Like, are you seeing this and noticing this in every place you you go in your life where you're starting to be able to understand how people are feeling?

Speaker 2: 23:41

Absolutely. And sometimes people have outrageous behaviors and I don't necessarily understand them, but I can understand that there's something really big going on in that person that's causing that outrageous behavior. We just don't do, we just don't call off and yell at people for no reason. There's something bigger at play there and they are in a lot of pain or they're really scared or they feel pushed in a corner. Any of these kinds of things can come up, and I will say it's harder with family, you know, it's harder with the people that matter to us the most. That's where it's harder and I would think that that would come up so much in the relationships of this community. The longing to have to reconnect with one's children, I mean, I just imagine that is gut-wrenching, that longing. And I would just like to ask one question back to you If you got that connection with your child that you wanted, what need would that meet for you?

Speaker 1: 24:44

That's a powerful question, I think shared reality and shared reality is a term I learned in MVC where you're reflecting back something in common, where sometimes you're having a conversation with someone and they're reflecting back something that is so completely different to what you're saying, or you're saying something that's so completely different to them. So I'd say it would meet a need for shared reality. It would need a need for being seen and heard. I think just just being acknowledged as another human being I think that would be a really huge part in this situation is just well, yeah're like dad, you're human too. You know like. I think that would be yeah, that my life matters.

Speaker 2: 25:22

Yeah, so shared reality and being seen and being heard.

Speaker 1: 25:27

Yeah, and that my life matters. I think is a really important one, because I feel like a lot of us feel like we've been erased.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Yeah, and that your life matters. So holding that thought preciously and acknowledging that your favorite, what you really are wanting is to have that with your daughters, and maybe that's not possible on this day, but maybe there are other places where all of that can be true, like this community that you're part of. So try to beef up the other ways that those precious needs of yours can be met. Isn't like the end game. It helps support an opportunity later on to have a different relationship with your daughter. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 26:10

That makes a lot of sense. And, yeah, I appreciate your tenderness and care to ask a question like that and for us to work through that on the podcast, because I think that's a really, really, really powerful example of someone giving me empathy, asking me a really provocative, emotionally deep question and me spending a couple minutes digging layer by layer by layer until I was able to get there, and then Mary coming back and kind of like sealing the container and just saying it out loud one more time and then I felt that integrate into my nervous system. So what a beautiful example of of MVC. Thank you for doing that. And so I want to let people know how they get involved, how they find out stuff, what resources are out there. So I'm going to ask you first about something that I think you're one of the co-founders of, of the MVC Academy. Could you let us know a little bit about what that is?

Speaker 2: 26:59

Yeah, I am one of the co-founders and I'm also the CEO of the NVC Academy and we're an online school that teaches nonviolent communication and we have a ton of free resources. We also have live courses where there's a certified trainer present with you in the course. We also have a library with a number of resources in that and a few self-paced courses, and we support people all over the world in learning and living nonviolent communication.

Speaker 1: 27:31

Yeah, and as I've been part of the NVC Academy, I think for four or five years, and the resources are phenomenal, if you just want to dip a toe in, it's got a really low threshold. Just to dip a toe in, I think it's $15 a month.

Speaker 2: 27:44

Yes, it is $15 a month, or you can do a year prescription and it's a little bit less.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Yeah, but again, $15 to just dip a toe in check out what's out there, I think is an incredible way to do that. And what other ways would you say for folks that are pretty new to this conversation to stick a toe in, to understand a little bit more to what would be your say?

Speaker 2: 28:18

Hey, if there's two things that I would suggest for you, to just get a little bit a library Marshall Rosenberg's book which is called Nonviolent Communication A Language of Life. I just think that's an excellent introduction into the process. I think that's a possibility. And you know Jim and Jory Manske. I know you know them. They are certified trainers in Maui, hawaii, and they offer a monthly practice group through the NVC Academy called Taste of Compassionate Leadership. It's free. It meets once a month. That would be another way of getting started once a month.

Speaker 1: 29:01

That would be another way of getting started. I love that and, just for anyone out there that's listening, we're going to put these links in the show notes so you'll have access to that and for some reason we missed something or you're hearing something on the podcast. You can always just email me at familydisappeared at gmailcom and I will get you out what every information you're looking for. And another really important way to embody NVC, for me at least, is what I did was retreats, and you mentioned a women's retreat. So can you talk about what that looks like specifically for genders, and then we'll go into more like an IIT or a more inclusive or more open retreat. So if you could talk to both of those and let people know kind of what both of those experiences are a little bit like.

Speaker 2: 29:43

Yeah, well, I don't have a women's retreat coming up and so I can't really speak much about that. There are trainers all over the world, so you might go to cnvcorg and look up trainers in your area. If you want to do something in person or you want to, you know, be in the same room with somebody, you might check that out. And then there's a big training called international intensive training, which Lawrence mentioned earlier was how we met initially several years ago. All over the world and usually four to six trainers lead them and people come from all over different places and it's a nine day retreat. They're aptly named in that they're intensive because we're living and breathing and VC together for nine days and life changing in a positive way.

Speaker 2: 30:38

I've been a participant, and probably three of them, and a trainer, and way more than that, and I have yet to have to not have a life changing experience at every one of them. Whether I'm the teacher or I'm the student, it doesn't matter, they're life changing and they're pretty amazing, I think. So those happen all over the world. You'll find those also on CNBCorg.

Speaker 1: 31:00

That's fantastic and, talking from personal experience for myself, I think I've done two IITs and then I've done a bunch of other intensives, so maybe like five, 10 day retreats or something like that and I went to my first retreat not knowing anything about NVC, except that one of my teachers at my two-year Buddhist chaplaincy program had spoken about NVC. I looked it up, I found a retreat, I showed up I didn't read a book and it was magnificent. It was most definitely life-changing, and I just wanted to thank you, mary, for coming and chatting for a little bit, sharing some of your wisdom and your examples and your love and compassion and just your love for NBC, and taking that time to come out and say hello to the community. I really, just really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Speaker 2: 31:49

Lawrence, it's such a pleasure to see you and I wish you so much good luck in your work that you're doing and love how you're supporting families this way.

Speaker 1: 31:57

Thank you, mary. Wow, that really makes me laugh and wow, that was great. Some really neat stuff, some powerful reflections. I loved Mary's question about what I was looking for, how it would make me feel what I needed out of the relationship with my kids, and I'd ask you all that same question what need will be met if you were able to connect with your kids? Can you pull out a piece of paper and just write out what your feelings are? What needs will get met If you're able to connect? How you'll feel, what will change?

Speaker 1: 32:39

I think it's a really really, really important exercise and we're going to put some free resources for you in the chat. There'll be an NVC needs and feelings list. There'll be some other NVC links just directly to our website with a bunch of free YouTube videos and stuff. We're going to have all Mary's links in the chat as well for the NVC Academy, for CANVC, um and for also that free monthly training that, uh, that is offered by some of the trainers and and a bunch of other stuff and and um. You know we have the, the family hope project, which is fantastic if you want to get involved, if it's an educational and advocacy platform to let people know what's going on in the alienation, estrangement and erasure world and anything you'd like to share with us, topics you'd like covered.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Questions for me, questions for Mary. Please email me at familydisappeared at gmailcom and we'll get back to you or we'll get you in touch with someone in the NBC world, if that's what you're looking for. And thanks for coming out and sharing a little bit of time with us. And in case no one's told you yet, today, I love you. I love that we have this opportunity to change. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 33:47

And again, it might not be in our lives. It might just be creating change and hope for other people, and there'll be an intervention in other people's lives sooner and more often, and there'll be less and less of that, and that will be the change for us too. So I hope to see you around the neighborhood. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then,