Dealing with Shame and Guilt in the Family System Part 2 - Episode 39
Apr 22, 2024
Lawrence Joss
Have you ever felt the weight of family dysfunction heavy on your heart? Together with Allison Garner and two passionately committed parental alienation advocates, we traverse the emotional minefield that so many face but few dare to discuss. Our conversation is more than just an exchange of stories; it's a treasure trove of insights and strategies, with each of us pulling from the depths of personal experience and the wisdom of a 12-step program. We shine a light on the shadows of shame and guilt while uncovering the transformative role of acknowledging and validating the emotions of children caught in the crossfire of estrangement.
The journey through the tangled web of parenting, where missteps can leave lasting scars, is a path few can navigate alone. That's why we pour our hearts into this dialogue, taking on the formidable challenge of setting boundaries and engaging in the tough talks that pave the way to healthy family connections. Our candid reflections on managing internal shame offer a guiding light for those of you seeking not only to heal but to thrive in the midst of these trials. By embracing personal healing and the strength found in community, we chart a course for ourselves and our listeners, towards an enriching life where the health of our familial relationships mirrors the growth within us.
Don't forget to Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@parentalalienationadvocates
If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss (All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)
Please donate to support PAA programs: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR ARTWORK TO THE FAMILY HOPE PROJECT: https://pa-a.mykajabi.com/questionnaire
This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team: Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager Kriztle Mesa - Social Media Manager Gen Rodelas-Kajabi Expert Kim Fernandez - Outreach Coordinator
Have you ever felt the weight of family dysfunction heavy on your heart? Together with Allison Garner and two passionately committed parental alienation advocates, we traverse the emotional minefield that so many face but few dare to discuss. Our conversation is more than just an exchange of stories; it's a treasure trove of insights and strategies, with each of us pulling from the depths of personal experience and the wisdom of a 12-step program. We shine a light on the shadows of shame and guilt while uncovering the transformative role of acknowledging and validating the emotions of children caught in the crossfire of estrangement.
The journey through the tangled web of parenting, where missteps can leave lasting scars, is a path few can navigate alone. That's why we pour our hearts into this dialogue, taking on the formidable challenge of setting boundaries and engaging in the tough talks that pave the way to healthy family connections. Our candid reflections on managing internal shame offer a guiding light for those of you seeking not only to heal but to thrive in the midst of these trials. By embracing personal healing and the strength found in community, we chart a course for ourselves and our listeners, towards an enriching life where the health of our familial relationships mirrors the growth within us.
Don't forget to Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@parentalalienationadvocates
If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss (All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)
Please donate to support PAA programs: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR ARTWORK TO THE FAMILY HOPE PROJECT: https://pa-a.mykajabi.com/questionnaire
This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team: Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager Kriztle Mesa - Social Media Manager Gen Rodelas-Kajabi Expert Kim Fernandez - Outreach Coordinator
I wouldn't be here, wouldn't be this and that if it wasn't for you and if you hadn't done and you should, should, should You're like wow, you sound really angry with me. I would love to make this better.
Speaker 2:
There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.
Speaker 3:
Hi everybody, welcome again back to family disappeared podcast. It's me geo. I'm in the cockpit again for the second half of our talk about shame and guilt with allison garner and our other two paa guests, which is parental alienation advocates. We are all working that 12-step program, working on ourselves and try to peel back these layers that have been following us and keeping us stuck, and we want a better way of living and to model that to our children and to change the next generation of this family dysfunction and dealing with alienation and the estrangement and being erased from anyone's life. Really. So let's jump into the show. Julie, still, you know she has a connection, she has a child that's coming and going and what do we do with that? How do we work through that and do we address it with our kids that hey, this is where I'm at, or do we wait for them to come back to us? We hold the keys.
Speaker 1:
I think that there isn't an answer to that, because everybody's different and all the kids are different and the parents are different and you know, for Julie, you have to be age appropriate, because a 14 year old can't comprehend. And I learned this really amazing thing at a retreat I was just at in Costa Rica, and it was it was called holding. That was the exercise that we were doing, and so we had a bunch of things that we were holding on the leadership of this organization that we're a part of, and so once we were able to kind of like get our thoughts organized, we had a conversation with leadership and we said here's what we're holding on you and, whether it was factual or not, these were our interpretations of how things were going and what we made it mean. And when we were all done explaining like each of us explained what we were holding on these people and those people then the leaders looked back at us and said thanks for sharing that with us. And I'm so sorry that the impact that we've had on you is that, you know, you felt like you'd been left behind or you felt like you were dropped or whatever. Our intention was never for that to impact you in that way and I can't tell you how much that just like unloaded the energy that was between us, like it was.
Speaker 1:
I'm not advocating that you necessarily do this with all the people in your life. However, with a 14 year old, when my 14 year old would say that kind of stuff to me, what I was shown was like what if you were to just validate what he's sharing? You sound really angry, you sound like you're really pissed at me and you think I screwed it all up. And if he can be like, yeah, that may be all there is to do in that moment, because what you want him to know is that you get him. You don't agree, it's not all you.
Speaker 1:
There was a lot of stuff he can't understand and never will, because he wasn't there. He doesn't know what happened inside that marriage and inside the divorce. He doesn't know. But if you can have him feeling, seen and understood in that one moment and you can string a bunch of those together, I feel like that's really, really useful and it discharges a lot of the negative tension and intensity sometimes when they you know, if your son comes in and he's like I wouldn't be here, wouldn't be this and that if it wasn't for you and if you hadn't done and you should, should should be like wow, you sound really angry with me. I would love to make this better. He doesn't know what he needs. He's 14. He just needs to like discharge all of this, and if you can be the person that kind of collects it and then you can help him discharge that, just by validating him, I don't know.
Speaker 4:
Interesting. You know I've had several therapists say that to me. But I don't like these therapists and it's hard to take that advice from these people. I don't like them either Keeping you away from your child. But when you say it suddenly, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:
I'm not a therapist.
Speaker 4:
Maybe that's why, yeah, there you go julie.
Speaker 5:
Can I ask you a question that's based around what we're talking about? So the interaction that you had with your son and you, you shared that you made the decision to not if I'm reflecting correctly that you you weren't gonna not not interact with him but just stay quiet and just let him say his piece or whatever. Does that feel like a different response to the kind of response you might have had before you started program work?
Speaker 4:
Absolutely, that's a different response.
Speaker 4:
You know, I had to step away from my anger and and I recognized early on once in the program that my anger at him was misdirected. He's a kid and it's been hard for me to deal with my friends and family who want to blame my child and I have to step in and say he's just a kid. He's just a kid, he's doing the best he can. But it I was actually the first one to come to that realization and slowly I'm getting my husband and my parents and my friends to grasp onto. He's just a kid and he didn't know the ramifications of the accusations he was making accusations he was making and it's helped a lot to set that aside and give him the grace that sometimes it's easier to give myself when I can say I did the best I could with the information I had at the time and then turn that around to my son and say he's doing the best he can with the information he has as a 14-year-old kid. Yeah, and so the silence if I couldn't say anything was better than an explosion, right.
Speaker 3:
You know, as we're talking about the program, I don't think until I started being really honest with myself and getting to take a look back at, you know, being in a program for such a recovery program for two years, it makes you kind of step back and I'm like, oh wow, like you start to see things and like I'm outside of myself and I want to be able to for myself, and I know Anna and I have talked about this. I want to be able to for myself and I know Anna and I have talked about this. I want to be able to if my, my children come, come back. I don't want my ego to get in the way, I don't want to say but at this and I did this, and I really want to sit with them. I want to sit with what they have because my guess is, after walking through this devastation of their family, they are carrying their own set of shame and guilt because of the fracture and I just feel like it's very unnatural for a child not to be able to love both parents.
Speaker 3:
And I've softened inside as well. You know, sometimes in meeting, you know, when the newcomers come in, we I hear it differently and they I'm sure I sounded the same way and I too I wanted to blame everybody else, but at the same time I was ashamed. There's just such strong emotions with that whole thing, but when it comes down to it, you know our kids in my situation. They were taken along on a ride that they didn't ask for and they got caught up in it, and I would not want them to carry their own shame and guilt. I have a question for Allison.
Speaker 4:
If we can go back to your mad, sad, glad exercise, is there a time when you do share that with another person and not just your journal?
Speaker 1:
So that's getting complete right. So I get complete, which is like just wiping that energetic slate clean. That's all it does. So nobody ever sees that letter. I can still finish that exercise and be incomplete about something that has happened. So let's say I actually am a little incomplete about how my daughter is using us financially. We are financially supporting her a little bit right now. I'm a little incomplete about it. So I can get complete about all the things and like all the things that she is, and then all the things that I've done to contribute, and then I can acknowledge and I can finish that exercise and there can still be something left on the table and if there is, that's when I will go back.
Speaker 1:
So that conversation then looks like hey, I have something on my heart that I'd like to talk to you about and I think it's going to. I don't think you're going to like what I have to share. Sometimes she's like I don't want to talk about this now, can we talk next week, or she'll ghost me or she'll do all the things. But eventually we come back. You know she says I don't want to talk about it now. Then I'll say, hey, then could you let me know when. And then I'll say, hey, then could you let me know when? And then, once we sit down, it's like I need you to know I'm taking full responsibility, but I'm feeling resentful, given that we're still financially supporting you after we agreed that you would be fully independent at this point. And I get that. That's me. I'm not making you wrong, but I want you to know that because it's starting to get in the way of the relationship and so I'm wondering if we could renew or do a different agreement around the financials. So I feel like there is some light at the end of this tunnel, something like that.
Speaker 1:
And I have had that conversation with our son because I had that same feeling when he left home a few years ago he lives in Arizona now and his first year, you know, after like 11 months, I was like, hey, we got to talk buddy Cause, like 11 months. I was like, hey, we got to talk buddy Cause, like if you're working and all of that, how come you're so broke? And so we had that conversation and I said I was resentful. He broke down and started crying, which tells that. That tells me a lot about the stories that are going on in his head about himself. He made that mean a lot. And so as soon as I saw that response, I was like, okay, we need to time out here. Like, remember, I'm sharing what's on my heart with you because I want us to have a really beautiful relationship, but I don't want anything to get in the way of that. And he's like, I just feel like such a loser. And I was like, oh, let's talk about that. So what it does is it opens up a space where you can have these conversations and he can cry and feel like a loser and I can feel resentment and we can still come together and talk, which, like that's magic, because I didn't have that in my family of origin.
Speaker 1:
Just because you get complete about something doesn't mean that there isn't a conversation to be had. So, like with your son, if he's like behaving like, if you're tolerating, let's just say he comes and he, like open hand, slaps you in your face. Right, that's not tolerant. We don't tolerate that kind of behavior from anybody, let alone our own children. And so it's like, hey, we need to talk about that. You can get complete about all the other things and get yourself sorted, get your nervous system calmed down, and you can always go back and say you know, I just need you to know that the next time that happens, you know we're going to have to call the police. I'm making it up, but sure Does that make sense, so that there's? There is stuff on the table, that's okay, but making sure you get yourself sorted first, which is all. The unknown programs are right. They're all about looking in the mirror, which is why they're so darn powerful, because it's the last place I want to look.
Speaker 4:
Yeah yeah, I you know. Going back to the newcomers in the program, I think all newcomers are surprised to learn that it's about us and not about them and it takes a while.
Speaker 3:
it sometimes it takes a while. It's like, well, wait a minute. You know, I just want a quick fix so I can get my kids back under control and move on with unresolved shame that because I, like I've mentioned before this just keeps. It comes up and it comes up, and it comes up for me not as much as it used to. How do you shut down that person in your head that keeps telling you you're no good, you can't do this, you're bad, you did it all wrong. So you can free up some space to really do what you need to do, what we need to do as mamas and dads and I think that's where it's got to start before you can really heal the relationships with our children. So what can we take away from that? You know any of us can answer that if you have a good idea of how you deal with it. My entire life was shaming myself, my entire life up until now.
Speaker 4:
I mean there is no quick way to shut it down than to do the hard work of peeling away the layers, getting into a program Part of what I also struggle with is not only do I want to process the shame and move forward, but what I don't want to do and I often do is let's just pretend I didn't do that and completely ignore it and have no humility whatsoever and, you know, walk into the room like what? What are you all staring at? I'm not naked. I struggle with that side too that there's. On the one hand, I want to bury myself and never emerge, and on the other hand, I want to come out and just let's all pretend that didn't happen of my interaction with my kids.
Speaker 3:
I grew up in a home where everything's fine. The house is burning down, you know my hair is on fire, but you know, we're just gonna. We're gonna go to church, we're gonna sit in the front row, everybody just dress up really nice and it's fine, everything you know. You know, as I'm sitting here thinking I taught myself sit here when I interact with my kids I just I showed up, however they wanted me to be, just to just to cover up how terrible I was feeling, because I knew they were hurting or feeling a certain way. I just would keep smiling and just pretend.
Speaker 3:
You know, in the meantime, when they'd come into my home for the holidays or whatever, I couldn't explain why I just would cry all the time for the holidays or whatever. I couldn't explain why I just would cry all the time, or I, just because I carried all of that. The shame and the guilt was so so in every fiber of me. It affected my kids, probably to an extent where they pulled away because it was so hard for them to deal with me, not dealing with that shame and guilt, and perhaps they had moved beyond it, maybe they didn't, but I mean, there were years where we were interacting and then, um, I don't know it's, it's a slippery slope.
Speaker 5:
I can relate to what you're sharing, dear. I wanted to be able to fix everything and there's a lot of game a game, a lot of shame and guilt associated with not being able to do that. But if I think about the program work, it's really. And I didn't want to work on me. When I figured that out in program I thought, yeah, where's the exit? Like I think I'm gonna go. I'm glad that I you know what because of people in community that held space for me and allowed me to have those conversations say I don't like this, this is hard, this is painful. That helped me stay, thank goodness.
Speaker 5:
And now, when you talk, well, listen to hear share about the voices in your head. Well, those messages, though that internal dialogue, I'm able, better able now. I don't always get it right, but I'm better able now to go. Okay, whose voice is that in my head and how am I attached to that? And it makes me think about the piece that we also share in program about we learn how to respond rather than react. And I knew that intellectually when I started the work and I could recite chapter and verse on it. Now I feel like I'm actually practicing it and I don't always like to stop because I want to dive in and fix and change and control, because my nervous system likes the idea of being in control. But what I've learned is to slow down and be gentle and be kind and listen and detach. And it's so hard to detach For me, it's been huge when it comes to my kids. I could feel them falling out of my grasp and that's the last thing I wanted to do was detach. But it's what I've learned how to emotionally detach, and it's not always perfect and I don't always do it the right way. But doing all of those things allows me to think okay, where is this message coming from? Whose voice is this? Is this actually something I need to pay attention to? And if I can't figure it out, I can talk to someone in program. I can talk to someone in program. I can talk to my sponsor. I can. I can reach out.
Speaker 5:
I didn't know how to do that before either. So it's uh, and it doesn't necessarily make the guilt and the shame go away, but it puts a different perspective on. It has less power for me then, and it hits me less, and it used to paralyze me and it would keep me stuck and now I can work through it thanks to program and having community. If I didn't have community, I couldn't do this stuff on my own. Well, I wasn't doing it on my own. That's why I reached out for community. I didn't know what it would involve, but community is key for me. Otherwise I wouldn't be where I am now. But it's yeah. It's a big question and I don't want my kids to carry shame and guilt, but part of their recovery is the same as me. I've had to learn how to. It's part of the whole branch of feelings. Now I'm learning how to manage my emotions and I want them to be able to learn how to do that in a healthy way too. I can't do that for them, but I can model it for them.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, and I think you know you had some said a lot of great things about that, anna. You know you had some said a lot of great things about that and I guess what I take away from that is and what I want the audience and our listeners and the message to be is about needed grace. The world is a difficult place the way it is and I guess, speaking from my heart, which you know, that in itself is just freeing and if we can just be honest with ourselves about okay, so we made some mistakes, but have some compassion for what you've been through and take it easy. We are all here just trying to go through these journeys we have and it's hard to be a parent, it's hard to be a spouse and our kids, but, like Anna said, you are not alone. We have programs like PAA Parental Alienation, anonymous and it's a free program in a space where you can feel heard, accepted, you can navigate through, you know where is that pain or the shame and the guilt coming from, and when you have community with others who are walking that same path, it doesn't feel quite as hard. So I guess the message is don't give up, you know, keep trying to make discoveries about your life, what you're feeling. Take some chances and peel back the layers of how you got to where you are. Big breath, holy cow.
Speaker 3:
Another great episode with Allison. And just reminding everyone that you are in control of yourself, your life, and you are worth taking a look at the part that unneeded shame and guilt plays in your life. We are all human. There are things we have learned from our past, in our own families, of dysfunction, and it is never too late to take control of your life and take a look at you. Know what is? Where are we accountable? In our life, in the relationships we have with others, and then put shame and guilt back in its rightful place, so that the sky opens up and the sun comes out again and it becomes easier to navigate through those grueling times when we sit with ourselves in the tears and just beating ourselves up, because it doesn't help anyone and it's wasted energy.
Speaker 3:
So again, thanks for joining us. Energy. So again, um, thanks for joining us. Please don't forget to share us with the community. Put it out on your own social media, don't forget to check the show notes. There's a place to donate. And, um, follow us. And again, if no one has told you. Yet today. Look at yourself mirror and say I'm pretty lovable and you're worth it. So have a great day.
Speaker 2:
Love you guys thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of family disappeared podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.