Overcoming Parental Alienation: Mending Hearts and Rebuilding Bridges Part 2 - Episode 43

When the heartache of a fractured family finds a path to healing, the story resonates with a profound truth about the human spirit. Renee's narrative of reuniting with her sons after an agonizing 30-year separation is a testament to the resilience we all harbor. In our latest episode, we traverse the emotional valleys and peaks of her journey, revealing how personal growth can light the way to rekindling lost connections. Our conversation uncovers the delicate balance of maintaining low expectations and firm boundaries, and the remarkable transformation that can occur within a family when these principles are embraced.

The art of reconnection requires grace and the wisdom to respect the individual paths that each family member has walked. Sharing my adventures in rebuilding my relationship with my son Dan, we discuss the beauty found in the ebb and flow of communication, where listening can sometimes speak louder than words. The episode also casts a thoughtful eye on the cautious steps taken towards reuniting with my eldest son, underscoring the importance of living in the present and steering clear of the shadows cast by the past. Renee's story, interwoven with mine, serves as a beacon for those navigating the turbulent waters of familial healing.

Confronting the specter of parental alienation, we peel back the layers of misunderstanding that can sever the most intrinsic of human bonds. As Renee recounts the poignant moment of her child recognizing her as their 'real mom,' we delve into the significance of emotional stability and mutual recognition in the process of recovery. The conversation extends beyond the immediate family, highlighting essential practices like nonviolent communication and empathy that can transform all our relationships. Join us as we explore these intimate narratives of reconnection, offering solace and wisdom for those on their own paths to familial reconciliation.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Low expectations, high boundaries, right, just going into it with an open mind, with as few preconceived notions as possible, to have the best outcome as possible.

Speaker 2: 0:12

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Dross and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. It is great to have you here with us today.

Speaker 2: 0:51

And today we have a second part of the show with Renee, and we are talking about her reuniting with her sons after 30 years of alienation and what that looks like, what expectations there are, what victories there are, what challenges there are and a bunch of talk about recovery and why this is even possible. You know and I think that's a beautiful thing there for anyone that's struggling, that's new to the struggle, that's old to the struggle, that there are possibilities and as a direct result of working on ourselves, we're going to be having a conversation with Renee and you're going to see the link between working on yourself. And so we're going to be having a conversation with Renee and you're going to see the link between working on yourself and the rewards that come with that and how that can have such a wonderful impact on the family system. And if you're new to the community, welcome. There's a plethora of resources in the show notes. There's our 12-step meeting, parental Alienation, anonymous, which we have 16, 17 meetings a week and that's free all the time. And there's a bunch of other stuff out there and let's just get into it.

Speaker 2: 1:51

You know, one of the things that we are talking about in the show is our kids and we, you know, for some of us we have multiple kids and in the multiple kids, you know, for me on my journey is I see how my kids are separated from each other and even as young adults right now, that they don't necessarily have relationships with each other, and that's done intentionally from my perspective, you know, with my ex-wife, and what I think about is I remember taking my kids on multiple vacations and when we would go on vacations they would get along so great together. There was no one that they needed to take care of, they were just showing up on vacation to hang out with each other and have fun and they were close and loved each other so incredibly much start to have a relationship with each other. It's really interesting. I think them having a relationship with each other is more important than them having a relationship with me, and I think in them having a relationship with each other that a lot of the recovery work will start for them once they start to learn who they are without having a third party being an intermediary. So I just say there's a lot of grace for my kids as they go through the struggle and as I see some of those struggles that they're having in their life, which they might not even identify as a struggle, and they might even say I might just be making this up and maybe, as I'm saying this out loud, maybe what I'm saying might be hurtful to a child or someone that's alienated. If they hear this and I would say I want to acknowledge that that reality would be real and I would also want to acknowledge that my reality of watching people struggle in relationships where they have a third party triangulated into the conversation is incredibly challenging and not healthy. You know, with my parents, when I was triangulated into their stuff, where they were sharing information, then it was coming back out to me. It confused the relationship and it wasn't useful. And once I started to have boundaries and have a relationship with each of my parents individually, I changed. It was magical, and I think that same thing can happen for our kids.

Speaker 2: 4:00

So let's jump into this next part of the episode. The conversation is wonderful and Renee is like a superstar and a shining light and there's so much great takeaways for anyone out there that is struggling in any stage of parental alienation, estrangement or erasure. It is so beautiful to hear you say that and I just want to point out how important it is to our community to hear these success stories and we're talking a long period of time that there was a lot of struggle, but also something that you said, renee, that is really profound and important is that you have done the recovery work, and I will say early on in my experience, like I hadn't done the recovery work, so I created a lot of harm to my kids and I helped perpetuate parental alienation to a certain degree because I was so involved in it, sometimes I was pushing it, you know, and when we talk about recovery, work, if you're not really familiar with that, it's about working on yourself emotionally and spiritually and physically. And it's not in just the relationship with our kids, it's in every relationship in our life. I think that's when recovery really starts to take hold, is when we realize oh, it's not just about my kids, it's about me having a full, rich and robust life and I love my kids and I want to work on that too. So if you're struggling out there and you don't know what to do, through the 12-step perspective, it's working yourself and it sounds counterintuitive because you feel like someone else is doing something else to you. But by working on ourselves we can show up in all these situations differently.

Speaker 2: 5:39

And you had said that you'd spoken to your son and then for one year there was no real contact and that your nervous system has kind of it sounds, let go of the time a little bit and you enjoy what you do and then, when it happens again, it happens again. And how did that? One year later, connection happened. Did you reach out? Did he reach out? What happened?

Speaker 1: 6:01

I had reached out to him because I had been. I do have a higher power, my higher power. I call God. And I kept kind of asking my higher power, you know, give me a nudge when it's time to reach out to my son. Because, not that I needed to defend myself, but I felt, like for Renee, I needed to be able to speak my truth on some level, not in a harmful level, but in a level where I was taking care of myself. And I kept asking and asking and the answer was no, no, no, no for a year.

Speaker 1: 6:38

And all of a sudden, one morning I woke up and I just got this intuitive feeling like now's the time. And so at 4.30 in the morning I sent him a message and I just said you know, you were so courageous last year in reaching out to me and I had such an appreciation for how openly you shared with me and I would be remiss if I didn't now do that myself. And he responded back almost immediately and said I would love to have another phone conversation, mom, and I said that would be great. When does that work for you? And we had another conversation. And that's when he said you know, I'm going to sit here and listen, because you listened to me last year and that meant a lot to me, so now it's my turn to sit and listen to you. It was amazing.

Speaker 2: 7:32

I love the idea of patience. I love the idea of checking in with ourselves, whether it's connecting through God or higher power, through nature, through music, and just taking it slowly, because everything in the beginning seems like it has to happen immediately and if it doesn't happen immediately, I'm gonna die, you know? And uh, yeah, I, I love that you gave it space to breathe. And and what does the relationship look like today with your youngest son? We're talking about Dan correct.

Speaker 1: 8:07

It's been probably three weeks since we talked, maybe a month now. Every time that I've reached out I've probably reached out four or five times he had a lot of exciting things happening for him. He got a new job, made a move, also started doing some work with Fox Sports, which was really exciting for him, and he's raising two children. He's a single dad. So he was just in the throes of all this change. So rather than think to myself, well, he doesn't really have time right now, I would just send out short little texts and just say, hey, I'm thinking of you, I hope everything's going okay. And he responded every single time and a couple times with little clips of interview things that he had done with Fox Sports so that I could watch them and you know. So really engaging in spite of the fact that he's crazy busy right now. So that meant a lot to me, that I felt like I was a priority, which was great.

Speaker 2: 9:13

That sounds very sweet and also by what you're saying, it sounds like he's responsive when you reach out. You're not just left in this void and vortex, not knowing if you're ever. It sounds like he's responsive when you reach out. You you're not just left in this void and vortex, not knowing if you're ever going to have contact. He's actually in the relationship right now with you yes, for the first time ever wow, that that is incredibly powerful.

Speaker 2: 9:32

And you have two sons and it sounds like we're talking a lot about the younger son, what? What does it look like with your older son and what kind of connection do you have with him? And what's that arc look like over the last couple of years?

Speaker 1: 9:47

You know, with my oldest son we have had a better relationship over the last 30, meaning he harbored resentment and things, I think, but he seemed more open, more forgiving, more kind, even though we rarely had a connection with each other. Several years ago we did have a very short moment in time where I met my grandchild and we had lunch with him and his wife and it was a nice connection and for me I got some really high expectations. I started thinking, okay, now everything's changed. And I had sent him a text message and he didn't respond back for several hours and I jumped the gun and this was before PAA and I jumped on him about it and he sent me an email and he said Mom, I don't ever want you to call me again. I was in a movie when you were texting me. I wasn't ignoring you. He said I don't ever want you to call me again. Please don't send the kids gifts anymore. It was like he had just had it. I think he felt like he had been trying as much as he was capable of trying and honestly I'd blown it and that was seven years ago and I respected his wishes. He did reach out maybe twice in those seven years with an email just saying hey, just checking in, and he'd send me a picture of the kids with their dog, and then nothing for another year or another two years.

Speaker 1: 11:27

And then, more recently, I was going to be in the state that he lives in and I just said, hey, I'm going to be there, what do you think about meeting for lunch? And he said I would love that mom. And we went to lunch and I was as nervous as a school girl going to homecoming. I was scared to death. He wasn't going to show up. And he did show up and he wanted to pray before the meal. He let me buy him lunch and we spent a couple hours together and now we have open communication.

Speaker 1: 12:02

He's not. It's not to the level as with my younger son. We don't ever talk about the past with my older son yet it's all pretty much just what's going on now. It's not ever about what happened. But one of the things I felt was important to mention today was that expectation word. You know, if I get expectations, it blows it for me every single time. So just because I'm having the conversation with my younger son doesn't mean all of a sudden I get to have it with my older son.

Speaker 1: 12:37

I mean, a mistake that I made for many years is I glommed them together. You know it was always my kids, my kids. They're separate individuals and they could not be more different. So I recognized several years ago probably since PAA in the last couple of years, that they're not the same person. You don't get to just group them into this thing called your kids. It is two very separate individuals, and just because they were born to the same parents doesn't mean they are a unit together. They're individuals and they, I assume, would like to be treated that way. And so with my oldest son, he brought me a little gift when we met for lunch. It wasn't a big thing, but I'm holding on to it, I'm cramming it in my suitcase. I am not taking this home right, and again, it looks very different with him. It's rare contact, but when I do reach out he immediately responds, and so I just feel like with both of them it has turned a corner that we've never before been able to turn in all these years.

Speaker 2: 13:51

That is really beautiful and also really useful when you say the kids are kids, but they're not the kid. Kids are kids, but they're not the kid. They are separate entities that have separate needs and separate ways of navigating the world, and that you're actually meeting each individually where they are and you're not lumping them in as the kids with. These are the rules. This is how the kids behave. This is just two people that you happen to love and they get to behave as two individuals in very, very different ways. It sounds like and yeah, I'm curious do your boys have a relationship with each other? Do you know, and what does that look like? Or do you not know?

Speaker 1: 14:28

Actually, for many years they didn't. They were raised in a way that they were very competitive with each other in sports and I think it ended up doing a lot of damage and there was a lot of jealousy there. So for many years they really didn't have a lot of good to say about each other. They would, you know, he would say, you know, I talked to my brother or whatever. But it wasn't that they were talking negatively about each other at all. It was more like, yeah, I don't know what's going on with him, but now my youngest son refers to my oldest son as his best friend.

Speaker 2: 15:09

Wow, that is beautiful.

Speaker 2: 15:11

That gave me goosies.

Speaker 2: 15:13

So we spoke about this briefly before we started taping is the idea that when the kids are younger, when there's multiple kids, that the kids are in silos, and what I mean by that is like, um, the kids are kind of like separated by the, the other parent, and they don't necessarily communicate in a positive way with each other a lot and the other parent is triangulated into each relationship.

Speaker 2: 15:41

So I call it like with my three daughters, like from my perspective which is just my perspective and it might be accurate or not is my three daughters are kept separate and all the information comes to my ex-wife and it's it's disseminated by her and then it's pushed out in different directions. So the kids don't necessarily get to have really deep relationships with each other and a lot of their ideas aren't their ideas, it's just information they're getting through their mom. That keeps them separate and I'm seeing that developmentally with them now and they're all in their 20s and I'm not sure if it's similar to what you're saying, but in your relationship and your experience with the boys kept separate and it sounds like through the competition they were kept separate and I'm guessing your ex would feed them different information to keep them separate so he could stay in the center. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 16:31

Of course, I didn't realize that at the time, but I would say, yes, he needed to be the central focus and needed to be their resource on. This is I know how to do things and I'm going to show you. And so it was a lot of spotlighting him and then they could be spotlighted, but initially it had to be on him. But, yeah, I that separation you're talking about. I wasn't aware of it, but now that you're saying it, it sounds like that's what it looked like for them as well.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Yeah, and I think it's definitely a nuance and something I didn't see early on, but I see it so much now, like how my middle daughter has always been scapegoated as the person that has something going on to a certain degree, and the older daughter and younger daughter have labeled her in a certain way. That is maybe not necessarily true, but it's just from information they're getting and then the each kid labels the other kid in a different way, but it's really information that's coming from a third party and they're taking on as it's information that they've experienced firsthand. It's really a. That's a fascinating part of parental alienation, but it's also makes sense when someone's really that deeply connected and enmeshed in your nervous system. But yeah, it's a. It's interesting.

Speaker 2: 17:53

Your nuance is a very different nuance that I haven't thought of because I had three girls. But that competition in sports I see that competition with my kids, with wanting to get attention, with maybe some certain things that they're achieving in life. It's not sports, but it's something different, but it sounds like the same thing and is used in the same kind of way as a strategy by the alienating or estranging parents. It's something I'm definitely going to have to chew on.

Speaker 1: 18:23

Yeah, a lot going on under there.

Speaker 2: 18:25

Yeah. So the question that I'm dying to ask is it sounds like things are going really well with your youngest son and you're really excited about it. What conversations have you had about meeting in person? Is that on the table, like what's going on with that?

Speaker 1: 18:41

You know it's really not Ironically not yet. You know I had written down some things that you know I'd already mentioned the things that have changed since I met them that we have open communication, that they reply immediately. I got a friend request on Facebook for the first time in like 12 or 15 years or something. But the things that haven't changed that I somehow intuitively know I need to just keep my hands off of them for now is that there are no plans for visits, no consistent contact, daily or weekly. You know, like I don't expect them to reach out to me all the time and I don't reach out to them all the time. And then the interesting thing for me and I guess this is kind of where I am now, you know, several weeks, months later, processing all of this with each of the boys is there's nothing. Regardless of how good it goes right now, there is no getting back the time that we've lost, and so for me that's a little bit of a dip into reality. Like you know, you can't go back and 30 years is a long time. So while I'm super grateful and really working on no expectations, there is kind of that underlying. Oh darn it. You know, like like this is not the easy button, this is not the fix it button. That's why I still go to meetings, I still work with my sponsor. You know, on meetings a couple of people have said, oh, it's so cool to see you in the room still, even though you're back with your kids, and it doesn't fix it. You know, had I still been an emotional mess when they reached out, it wouldn't have worked because I would have been too desperate and they would have felt that same old feeling of, oh my gosh, here she comes, put on your seatbelt, you know. But instead it's just been more like seeing or talking to a really good friend that I haven't seen in a lot of years. It's a great experience, but it's not that top of the mountain. Oh my gosh, life is great, you know, it's just, it is what it is, and it's easier for me to stay present when I'm not on the mountain and then in the valley, and on the mountain and in the valley again. So there are some things that haven't changed and I really trust my higher power to let me know when the time is right, when it might be appropriate to reach out and say hey, you know, if you're ever this way. I would love for you guys to stop in and see our new home and you know all of that.

Speaker 1: 21:37

One thing that did change that my higher power kind of gave me a little nudge on is the second conversation I was having with my youngest son, so we were fairly well established and open at that point. At one point he said, hey, mom, hang on a second. The kids are getting in the car, I'm picking them up from school. And I said, ok, and so I hear kids in the background talking and stuff. And he says, hey, guys, guess who I'm talking, hear kids in the background talking and stuff. And he says, hey, guys, guess who I'm talking to. I'm talking to my mom. And then he paused for a second and he said, no, no, no, my real mom. And I was like, wow, so they do know about me. And then they said, hi, you know.

Speaker 1: 22:20

And then I talked to my son a little bit more, being careful to guard by words, because now it's an earshot of my grandchildren that I really don't know. And at the very end I was able to say to them and truly mean it I wouldn't have said it had I not truly mean that you know what guys. You are so lucky to have the dad that you have. He is doing an amazing job with you and I just want you to know I think you're very lucky. And they both said thank you and I said I love you guys, and they said we love you too. And that was. That was big.

Speaker 2: 22:59

That's so far beyond big. I'm getting a little teary just sharing that. What a neat conversation, what a wonderful gift. I'm hearing that longing and missing out on the seminal events of marriage, birth, divorce, birthdays, whatever it is, and I'm hearing that still is with you and it hasn't necessarily changed into something different. It's still kind of like in the birthing canal where you're still processing and then seeing what that missing really means as you're starting to develop this relationship.

Speaker 1: 23:46

Absolutely, and, and you know the only way that I can describe it is uh, like in my case. Um, I found out my son got married on Facebook and I pull up. You know, I'm scrolling through Facebook and all of a sudden there's my son and his girlfriend and she's in a wedding dress and he's in tux, and there's tons of people there and I was devastated. So the only way I can really describe it is there's a little PTSD there and you know, do I do anything about that or not? I mean, I don't think about it often anymore, but you know, I would certainly reach out for professional help if it was really something that was disrupting and disturbing my life. But yeah, it'll always kind of be that thorn in your side that you couldn't quite get out. It's still kind of in there a little bit and you're reminded of it, but you certainly don't dwell on it or focus on it often at all.

Speaker 2: 24:44

Yeah, no, those are tough ones, those those marriages and births and stuff. And yeah, I, like you're saying, I experienced some longing and remorse and some anger and some sadness at times and uh, and as time goes by it's it's less prevalent and relevant in my thoughts, but I still, uh, I still miss those things you also mentioned when you were talking about recovery. And just because you're building these relationships doesn't mean that you stop your recovery work. And I think this is really important and I see this happen in our program a lot where parents get reunited with their kids and that they think that, while I'd made it, I got somewhere. And my perspective seems like it's similar to yours is the work doesn't begin until you start having a relationship with your, with your kids, until you start having those conversations, until you start being patient, until you start trusting something or building community or or resources.

Speaker 2: 25:41

And I just want to say for anyone out there, listening like this is a lifelong commitment, like alienation. Estrangement is part of my family system and it's embedded in all of our nervous systems PTSD, anxiety, fear, you know, anger, whatever comes up like this doesn't go away and that's why it's so imperative that we continue to work on ourselves because it's a moving target. It continues to grow, evolve and change. And with that like, what advice would you give to parents that are in their early stages of struggling and just being in that anxiety and that fear and that desperation and stuff like that, what advice would you give and what let's?

Speaker 1: 26:42

Would you do differently now? Within that advice, could you just give us a couple of examples that might be really useful to some people who would listen about every little detail? I did that for years and really the last one is kind of can be put in together with this one. I was defending myself. You know well, he did this and then I did that and then he did this and it didn't do any good for anybody. If anything else, it just stirred up the negativity.

Speaker 1: 27:10

And one thing I wish I'd known then that I do know now is the more that we talk about and ruminate on a situation, we're feeding it energy. It doesn't mean that we deny it and act like it didn't happen. But I want to really watch my words and how often I'm saying that information over and over for me, probably hundreds of times to anyone that would listen. So that was a big one for me. And then the last one on this part I would say, trying to manipulate my kids through shame, guilt, begging, questioning, demanding, begging, questioning, demanding, crying. You know everything I could think of and included in that was for me, and I'm ashamed to say it was talking bad about their dad when they were little. You know that was a huge mistake that I shouldn't have done, you know. But you can't go back. So those are things that clearly did not work for me. Um, do you mind if I touch on a few things that I felt did work?

Speaker 2: 28:17

Oh, a hundred percent, yes, please.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Okay, um, self-care, like put an exclamation point on that, and for me that looked like hot baths, going for walks, spending a lot of time with my dogs. Uh, volunteering, that was a huge one for me, being of service in my community in a 12-step program, because what that does for me gets me out of myself, and so I can't ruminate on all the pain I'm going through if I am walking dogs at the animal shelter who don't have a home. You know it's like I can't be selfish and do that at the animal shelter who don't have a home. You know it's like I can't be selfish and do that at the same time.

Speaker 1: 28:56

And then for me it was revisiting some hobbies that I thought were long gone. I hadn't done canvas painting for I don't know 30 years since college, maybe 40 years, and I started doing acrylic painting with canvas again and found out, oh, I'm kind of good at this. You know I had no idea. And then finally, just lots and lots of time with friends where we don't talk about my kids, you know, where I talk about me as a human being. My kids are no longer who identify me.

Speaker 1: 29:31

I identify me, I identify me, and so really focusing on where I'm at, staying present, and not ruminating on well, without them I'm nothing, because that could not be further from the truth.

Speaker 2: 29:45

Yeah, and I think that's a whole show by itself how we identify as our kids. But as we do recovery work, we we get to actually separate. You know what I mean? Like we think it's their work to separate from us as they go through the growing up process, but in a lot of cases it's time for us to realize that we don't own our kids, that they're not ours. There are separate individuals and separate entities and we just are lucky enough to have a relationship once in a while. So I think that think that's a great point to throw in there.

Speaker 2: 30:14

And I also want to say, as we're having this conversation, you're telling me about talking to your son and being able to listen and also be able to reflect back what he was saying. Oh, that was hard or that sounds like that was really really painful. It's a really, really important part of recovery, and what I'm hearing when you're describing those things as we're going through the conversation is nonviolent communication or empathy-based communication, where you're just using reflective listening, and that, I think, is, for me, the most important skill that I would argue that parents, grandparents, kids, anyone in any kind of relationship, need, and I'm hearing that that was a real important part of this last three or four years of your journey and I just want to take a second for you just to tell me something about that before we go to the last question to wrap up the show.

Speaker 1: 31:04

I would just say the only thing I can compare it to is when someone uses NVC with me. When I share something with somebody, that's difficult and they just take that second to have that touch point with me on. Wow, that must have been really hard. Man, I feel heard and that's what I try to share with other people now and this is a very new skill for me that I learned in PAA but, yes, as you mentioned, very valuable in every relationship that I have.

Speaker 2: 31:40

That's beautiful. Yeah, and the most highly recommended thing I'd say to anyone if you're not being able to connect or you're getting twisted up in your conversations with your kids is we got a. We have a bunch of shows on nvc with some really wonderful professionals, so go back and check those out if you haven't listened to them. And this is the last question, it's kind of a an awkward question, which I haven't really thought how I would answer, but I'm going to ask you. So what advice would you give to adult children who are considering reconnecting with a parent or grandparent that they haven't connected with in in years? Would there be any suggestion you might make to someone that might be reaching out in the opposite direction, or can you even speak to that? I'm not sure. What do you think?

Speaker 1: 32:25

yeah, I would say um with my son, and you're right, it's hard to wrap your mind around this and and come up with an answer. It's like I can formulate it in my head but I'm having trouble putting it into words. But I would just say that, uh, until you speak to someone and have an honest, transparent conversation, that both of you need to know that no one knows the whole truth, and maybe you don't need to know the whole truth. Maybe we just start from square one and have a conversation moving forward from today. We can always revisit the past, but it's not necessary to move forward in your relationship with a parent, a child or both. But that seems really important to me. Just to know expectations. You know somebody I adore I'm pretty sure it's you Lawrence. Low expectations, high boundaries right Expectations, high boundaries, right. And so just going into it with an open mind, with as few preconceived notions as possible, to have the best outcome as possible.

Speaker 2: 33:42

That's really wise and I love that. Just to meet people where they are and you don't have to go backwards, you can go forwards in order to possibly go backwards at a later date, but just to to go forward, I love that. What a what a beautiful place to to wrap up the show, and I'm so excited for you in this next part of the journey you're on on with the boys sounds delightful and wonderful, and we all can't wait to get our our next update in a little bit. And thank you for taking the time to to spend with us. And is there any final word you'd like to say besides goodbye?

Speaker 1: 34:17

what I would say, uh, in closing, would just simply be that if you're in pain, there's a solution, and for me this was it. Um, you know, I've seen people come into these rooms that looked suicidal, that that were so depressed and so down, and you look at them a few meetings later and you don't even recognize them. The healing that can happen when you apply yourself in this program is miraculous, and we hope to see you in the rooms.

Speaker 2: 34:47

Awesome, renee. Thank you so much and I hope you have a beautiful day. Thanks you too.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Wow, wow and wow, listen, renee.

Speaker 2: 34:53

Thank you so much and I hope you have a beautiful day. Thanks you too. Wow, wow and wow. Renee just knocked it out of the park and I just want to say how loving, kind and generous our community is, and every single parent and grandparent and previously alienated child that is on the show, you know, is putting a lot of skin in the game when they come on here and share some of the intimate details of their life. So I just want to acknowledge how much courage and recovery that takes and just say thank you to all of you and thank you to Renee for your courage today and I'm hoping you got something out of the show.

Speaker 2: 35:24

We try to deliver some useful information and insights and you don't have to take as much time as it took for us to learn these things. We are here as a community. We have a bunch of resources and they're in the show notes, and we're also a 501c3 nonprofit and we can use any kind of support we can get to continue to bring you the services that we do. So if you have some resources, know some charitable organizations or something out, or you want to volunteer and help us raise the not so um glorified parts of of the organization. We would love your help, and our email is in the show notes. Send us an email, ask a question, make a comment, remember to subscribe, like, share wherever you can and, in case someone else hasn't told you yet, today, I love you, I love our community, I love the opportunities that I.

Speaker 2: 36:12

I love our community, I love the opportunities that I have from working on myself and I love the opportunities that I get from being of service, because service really is the most important thing that I do, because this stuff is painful and the only way that I can get out of myself sometimes is by helping someone else. So, have a beautiful day. I love you. We hope to see you back on the next show, take care. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together, we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.