How to Embrace Unconditional Love While Fighting Parental Alienation and Estrangement Part 2 - Episode 45

What if unconditional love could be the key to transforming your most challenging relationships? Join us in part 2 of our conversation around love,  as we uncover the profound impact of practicing unconditional love, especially when dealing with alienation. Through personal stories and insights from the 12-step program, we explore the emotional, spiritual, and physical well-being that stems from this journey. Discover how accepting and letting go can help you build healthier connections, even when the path to healing is messy and non-linear.

Can self-love truly change the way we relate to others?  This episode sheds light on how prioritizing self-love is crucial for transforming our relationships. By working through the program's steps and finding community support, you'll learn how patience, kindness, and self-acceptance can pave the way for meaningful change in your life, and inspire others on their healing journeys.

Our conversation wouldn't be complete without addressing the physical and emotional toll of alienation and recovery. Listen to personal stories of how reconnecting with our bodies and practicing self-care can lead to unexpected benefits like improved health and re-established connections. We discuss the importance of letting go of societal judgments and external opinions, focusing instead on self-acceptance and unconditional love for ourselves and our children. Join us as we highlight how small steps in self-care can lead to profound changes, making recovery not just a possibility but a reality.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I feel like for me just asking the question what is unconditional love in this moment? What does that look like? And oftentimes it doesn't always look like the easy thing. The easy thing would be to alienate, to cut off relationships, to throw relationships away. That's the easy thing, and I've talked about this in meetings. The hard thing is to stay in a place of unconditional love and hold what I call the middle ground or the middle road, which is preferring something different than what might be coming my way, but also understanding that sometimes what's coming my way isn't okay, but being able to entertain those things and still be able to show up with unconditional love and give that as a gift to those around me. And that's that's my goal. I certainly don't do it perfect. I want to do it better, and part of the way I learned to do that better is through the 12 steps.

Speaker 2: 0:58

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today, coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:31

Hi and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. In today's podcast, we get to continue our group conversation around the topic of love. For myself, I felt as if we went fairly deep with the first part of the conversation and today's second part continues in a similar vein. There's authenticity, vulnerability and the kind of shared reality that I personally really value, and for me this comes from being an active member of this community. The conversation today touches on a lot of different subject areas how working a 12-step program can help you with self-love, the issue of power and control in relationships, the importance of acceptance and letting go big, big topic. How to build healthy connections in your life, the connection between the mind and the body and what we can do to take care of both, and the importance of a supportive community. When I have the opportunity to have conversations like these, it serves as a great reminder to me and I need to be reminded of this often that healing is messy, it's not predictable, it's not linear, and I know for myself, if I can accept that concept and embrace it, and you take that forward and aim to practice my own personal recovery on a daily basis to the best of my ability, using kindness and grace, both of which I really learned, and get reinforced in the PAA community. If I adopt kindness and grace both of which I really learned and get reinforced in the PAA community, if I adopt kindness and grace for myself and for others, progress can be made. I'm living proof of that and I can see it in my life. I can see the changes that I've made. It's amazing to me to find that change is actually possible, that our lives can improve and grow and we can also make space to grieve a broken connection with our loved ones. So let's check out the conversation. I deliberately chose the topic of love, with a particular focus on unconditional love, for this podcast because as I continue to walk my healing journey, it just becomes more and more obvious to me how important self-love is. I'm very motivated to change how I relate to all of the people in my life and as I pursue this, I'm really getting a different understanding on a deeper level that it's not possible to relate to people differently in my life until I focus on the relationship that I have with myself first. I'm really learning that I can only really love others the way I want to, unconditionally moving forward, if I show that love to myself in every aspect of my life.

Speaker 3: 4:23

So before I started doing program work, my self-esteem was really low. I didn't have any kind of self-worth. I came into the program feeling like an abject failure and especially in the arena of interpersonal relationships. I was at a very low point in my life. I was feeling depressed. I didn't think that I had anything good to offer the world. I certainly didn't have any energy to pursue anything like that. I couldn't see a way forward. I was feeling very desperate. I didn't think I could change anything and I was at such a low point in my life at that point that I really didn't think that I deserved to be happy.

Speaker 3: 5:07

I came into program with my only experience of love and affection really over the course of my life having been based on transactional love. I'm a lifelong people pleaser. I was very accustomed to working for attention and affection. I always had to earn it and I didn't know any other way. I didn't know any other way it was possible. I'd never experienced it.

Speaker 3: 5:34

So in this particular conversation that we had last week and that we're having today, we refer a lot to the 12-step program that Parental Alienation Anonymous offers, and we in this particular group we're all members of that community. I know for myself because I've been consistently working the program and accessing the love and support of its members, no matter how I'm feeling, and that's been quite a journey to do that, to actually reach out for help. I'm very grateful that I'm learning to do that. Because I am doing that, I'm able to start to experience what self-love could feel like, does feel like, which is amazing.

Speaker 3: 6:12

So a theme of the conversation today for me really revolves also around loving the life that you currently have, because I find the more that I do the work, the more I have deep conversations like these, the more I am able to love myself and the life I have now, despite the fact that my kids aren't in it. This is a huge perspective shift for me from when I started the journey. My hope for today is that this conversation around love touches you Hopefully it makes you curious to explore a little bit more and really that it gives you hope for a change in your own healing journey. The last little piece that you shared made me feel like it's a real act of self-love on your part to accept that love and to allow yourself in and to be vulnerable. Allow yourself in and to be vulnerable? Um, and the follow-on to that is do you feel like program has helped you learn to love yourself unconditionally if you take your kids out of the equation, your parents out of the equation, your ex-husband out of the equation?

Speaker 4: 7:15

well, absolutely, because I'm learning that I have no power over anything that that has occurred in my life. I may have thought that I was in control of all that was happening in my relationships, but I've learned in step one I have no power except myself and how I show up and how I react to situations. And that's what I'm working on, and I'm in a pod with five other people and I think we just finished step one and it took almost four months and when we started I was like, oh well, we'll be done in six weeks with 12 steps. But I love it. I could stay on step one forever and start all over again, but I'm excited that we're heading into step two. It's really been a process of transforming the group that was so initially awkward and now we're all conversing with each other and sharing and it's great. It's a great thing to be in PAA.

Speaker 3: 8:34

It's beautiful to hear that the connection and the community support I couldn't speaking for myself, I couldn't, I wouldn't be where I am today without the support of the community and having those conversations. That allows me to slow down and not think okay, in six weeks time I'll be done and I get the certificate, and I get the gold star and then I'm good to go. I I've had so many people along this journey and I'm still a newcomer that remind me about being kind to myself, gentle with myself and not be desperately grasping for answers and solutions. And when I step into my daily life with that as my background, my life is more peaceful and more joyful. And when things are difficult and challenging and they are and the emotions are very challenging, if I again, if I come to it from that space, I'm better able to handle that and I don't go off the deep end and my nervous system doesn't become up regulated.

Speaker 3: 9:27

I was thinking, listening to the conversations, and I'm very grateful for the vulnerability and the courage. Um and it's I'm thinking about my own answer to that particular question um and I I am learning to love myself in recovery. I have a much better relationship with myself, but it's really not something I'm accustomed to. I'm not used to being liked or loved for who I am. I'm used to being loved for what I do, and that speaks to the transactional piece right. So I can intellectually. I know that I'm loving myself in a different way, but I still don't entirely always know how to receive that and it can feel awkward and I know I have trust issues because of my past experiences. And a big part of that trust, as I was thinking about this question too, is that I don't trust something that I don't have to work for, because I've always always had to work for it and to earn it. And if I'm just accepted for who I am and loved for who I am, that feels really awkward. But if I extend that thought process, well for my kids, because it's a big example, I do love them for who they are and I want to be able to love myself the same way and I want them to be able to practice that in their journey going forward, and so it's part of me I speak in program meetings often about. I feel like they're walking a recovery path with me and so I need to engage myself in that process.

Speaker 3: 10:53

But putting myself first is not easy and I'm not used to having my feelings and needs met and I do have concerns about the love being taken away. But the more I work on that unconditional love piece for myself, I come to the realization that when I put myself first, that's the most important relationship I have at the moment, and then the other relationships stem from that. So when I step into a relationship with someone else whether it's someone I work with or a friend, or if it's trying to reconnect with my kids if I'm coming into that relationship from a loving space, it has a totally different impact. I can feel myself showing up differently in relationships and it's amazing to me. It's very healing and I'm getting used to it.

Speaker 3: 11:38

And I'm getting used to having awkward moments where I will qualify with people and ask if I'm doing the right thing, am I doing the wrong thing? Am I doing this right? And finding people that are in a similar boat, and so it's like, wow, okay, I'm not the only one that's struggling with this, and that's also a big part of my recovering community. We have these awesome conversations and I learn to listen to them and I learn to participate in them, and that's how I get to heal and grow. So how do you allow and encourage yourself to lean into unconditional love? What recovery tools do you use? And, lawrence, would you like to go ahead and answer that one first?

Speaker 2: 12:15

another great question, deep and has so many nuances. But the stuff that really comes up for me and and listening to everyone else is this isn't linear. When I first got here, I was really sick and crazy and I wanted to get some relief. I gave myself seven days and I figured I was going to get better, and that's kind of like a linear idea I'm going to get okay and then everything's going to be okay. But this is like stop and go. Some days are good, some days are not good, some days are sideways.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Some days it's a step forward, some days it's a step back and being really kind to myself to be able to come in and out, and also being really messy, like I don't start working on myself and then there's a bunch of rainbows and sunshine, there's a lot of rain and thunderstorms, and I find that the rain and the thunderstorms are sometimes much more useful, because my garden needs that kind of nourishment to continue to grow. If I'm just pretending and just staying in the sun and thinking that everything's going to be okay, in loving or in working with transactional love or unconditional love, I'm just perpetuating the problem, because this is all the shades of the rainbow and all the shades of the rainbow are incredibly healing, including the thunderstorm. So that's what I have.

Speaker 3: 13:33

Thanks, Thank you, Lawrence. How about you, Stephen? How do you lean into unconditional love?

Speaker 1: 13:39

Yeah, that's a great, really, really good question and that's the one I had to think, think the most about. I think the way I'd lean into it is is one simple word acceptance, and the 12 steps have taught me. There's other things that I've done in my life that have taught me about acceptance too, but the 12 steps written throughout all of the 12 steps, is the idea of acceptance. And so for me, when I, you know, I have in the past been uncomfortable with somebody showing me unconditional love, it feels uncomfortable for me sometimes because I'm not used to it, that there's just no string attached, there's not something expected in return.

Speaker 1: 14:29

But, as I've learned to be more in acceptance of what is and that's what, what's happening at any given time, and that it's all unfolding, accord to, according to God's plan and in my life, god, higher power for others, that that that gives me this peace, that whatever's happening at the moment is is okay, and sometimes it's not unconditional love, like, I don't have unconditional love for my kid, two of my children right now.

Speaker 1: 14:57

It's very conditional or part of it's conditional, and that's okay. I can accept that. That's where it is, but that doesn't change that I can't continue to show up giving unconditional love. And so that's where my acceptance of what is, but also recognizing that with that acceptance comes the choice that I get to do what I want, and I want to show up giving unconditional love to my friends and family and people around me. It is right now whether, as Lawrence mentioned, whether it looks really ugly and rainy and nasty, or whether it looks really unicornish and rainbows and roses and flowers and all that stuff, it doesn't matter. It's all part of where it's supposed to be. So thank you.

Speaker 3: 15:47

I love that. Thank you. Yeah, acceptance is a big part of my journey too. How about you, mary? How are you finding? What recovery tools do you use to help you embrace the idea of unconditional love?

Speaker 4: 16:00

When my alienation began, it was just so something I had never experienced in my life. Alienation from a family member or a friend, you know, is one thing, but alienation from your child was just something I couldn't even grasp. So it took me down physically. I ended up with an undiagnosed autoimmune inflammatory disease that we're still working on. And as it progressed and I got counseling and joined PAA, I realized that our mind and body are just so interconnected and if, if, if we don't love ourselves, then it's going to impact us physically. And so if, if I can, you know, love that friend who shares with me unconditionally and and empathize with them on their journey, then I need to do that to myself. And that's what I'm learning through recovery and the 12 steps in PAA.

Speaker 4: 17:24

So I am allowing myself. If my body says you know you've had enough, you're too tired to do this. If my body says you know you're, you've had enough, you're too tired to do this, then I listen. That was never the way I was brought up. It was always do, do, do, go, go, go at your own expense. So that's how I'm learning. Unconditional love for myself is is listening to myself and and giving myself the time I need if, if that's what I need to step away from, you know the chaos of life.

Speaker 3: 17:59

Thank you for sharing that, mary. That's reminding. Well, it reminds me of the transactional love piece I'm so used to being a human doing and in recovery. I get to be a human being and it's about slowing down, it's about looking after myself and, yeah, that is in unconditional love for ourselves, and I get to actually practice it rather than intellectualize it like I I am. I'm walking the walk, which is a big change for me too. Uh, julie, how about you? How does that, what? What comes up for you around that question? I?

Speaker 5: 18:31

I mean, I think most things go back to step one of just letting go. It was a year ago that I had my son for Mother's Day brunch and it was like our first time together after six months apart. And we went to a you know a fancy club and he was wearing like an old t-shirt and athletic pants and my my husband's old tennis shoes. I don't know why that's what he was wearing. And there was part of me that was just like I'm so embarrassed and what does this say about me as a mom? And and and I had to let go of that. And just who cares? And you know, they, one of the things they say in the program is what other people think about you is none of your business, and I had to really wear that. And then he was embarrassed because he looked around and saw other kids from his school who were in you know blue blazers and khaki pants, and he was embarrassed and I said just hold your head up high and keep going, and and he was embarrassed and I said just hold your head up high and keep going, and and I, you know, I think I just have to follow that advice for myself, that you know, when this first?

Speaker 5: 19:42

Well, when I first got divorced from my ex-husband and and he's an opioid addict and I felt like, well, what does it say about me that I was married to an opioid addict and what do people think about me? And and some people don't think highly of that, that's their problem, because that's just my story. I can't change that. And I struggled with what it's like to be a divorcee and I do think there were parents at school that kept me away from the group of other parents because they didn't want the single mom you know part of their group because I got divorced when my son was two. So I was like one of the first families to have to come from divorce and it was definitely like I was carrying something contagious that might catch and I had to let go of that too.

Speaker 5: 20:30

And it's with each step it's been like that that I have to let go and not not allow that to change how I love myself or how I love my son because of how he's dressed or or anything like that. That that's, that's just not. It's not up to me. I have to let go and accept myself and accept the people around me, and it's not. That doesn't affect how I love them or how they love me really. So, yeah, I think it's. I think it all goes back to step one. Let go.

Speaker 3: 21:02

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I think for myself about how I'm, the recovery tools I use for unconditional love. For me, it's really been a lot of self-care. I really haven't looked after myself well over the years because I put so much energy into other people and the last couple of years I've really focused on my physical health and my emotional health and spiritual health as well and spiritual well-being and really tapping into that and focusing on that. And I didn't make the connection when I started doing that that it was a. It was an act of love, because I'm not used to practicing self-love. But when I was again, when I was preparing for this podcast, I realized that I've done been doing a lot of work and being consistent in the work and I can feel the benefits of it and it's yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 3: 21:54

When I came into program, I didn't think that I would be learning how to look after myself. It's the last thing that was on my mind. Nor did I really think that I would be able to re-establish a connection with my kids. But I did know that I wanted to be part of a community where I could have these kinds of discussions, and so my expectations were really, really minimal, but they I mean the way I've been able to expand myself and my life and my connections and my choices and my options in doing program work is off the charts. For me it's um yeah, expansion instead of contraction is a really interesting part of my recovery journey, and I know when I'm in meetings too, people will talk about the recovery work being a way to find out how to empower yourself and give you a sense of agency. At the beginning I didn't understand what that meant.

Speaker 3: 22:49

Now I'm starting to get it and starting to practice it, and the self-care piece and the embracing, the unconditional love piece is a big, big, big part of that. Um, and it's. It's great to have these conversations and listen to people reflect on their own, their own journeys and and again have that shared reality and different listen to different points of view. Okay, so we have touched on a lot of topics, a lot of deeper stuff, a lot of stuff that might take you into different kinds of spaces and then also stir up some other feelings. So I'd just like to go around the group and see if there's anything that's come up as you've been talking, as you've been listening, that you would like to share on the podcast and share with community. Stephen, how about you? Is there anything, any reflection you would like to give back, any questions you'd like to put?

Speaker 1: 23:39

Yeah, I think you know. For me, I guess a big reflection along the lines of what we've been talking about today is I want to model and show up with unconditional love towards everybody in my life my primary relationship, my children, my friends, people in PA program, people at work, my patients. I don't do it perfectly, but it's a goal that I strive for. It's a goal that I strive for and I've had people tell me and I'm in some other forums on parental alienation and estrangement and I hear people talking about well, I just need to cut off the kids or do this or do that and those kind of things and those kind of things I understand setting proper boundaries so that I'm not allowing someone to abuse myself in a way or treat myself in a way that I wouldn't allow myself to be treated. But much of what we deal with is not in that category, and I remember I was thinking about interactions. Do I support them during college? Do I not support them? How do I show up for them? How do I show up for my friends and family?

Speaker 1: 25:04

And I feel like for me just asking that question of what is unconditional love in this moment. What does that look like? And oftentimes it doesn't always look like the easy thing. The easy thing would be to alienate, to cut off relationships, to throw relationships away. That's the easy thing and I've talked about this in meetings.

Speaker 1: 25:28

The hard thing is to stay in a place of unconditional love and hold what I call the middle ground, or the middle road, which is preferring something different than what might be coming my way, but also understanding that sometimes what's coming my way isn't okay, but being able to entertain those things and still be able to show up with unconditional love and give that as a gift to those around me, and that's my goal. I certainly don't do it perfect. I want to do it better, and part of the way I learned to do that better is through the 12 steps and I'm just so grateful for them and for the faith part of my life as well, which is a big part of that. But yeah, that's my big thing. On unconditional love, I think that's my thoughts on it in kind of wrap-up form.

Speaker 3: 26:22

Thank you, stephen. How about you, mary? Do you have any last reflections? Last questions comments.

Speaker 4: 26:29

When I attend PAA meetings or I'm in counseling or or or or listening to things, I like to take notes. Just say Anna said this or Julie said this, because I'll, I'll sit in when I come to my next meeting, I'll go, I'll look back and I go. Oh, I love that they said that. So I was jotting some things down as as everyone was speaking, and two things that stuck out to me were when you said, instead of being a human doing which I can totally relate to I have to give myself the grace to be a human being, and that means listening to myself when I need to rest, rest and when I need to, you know, pull myself out of a social event or whatever. So I'm learning to listen and be the human being, not the human doing.

Speaker 4: 27:31

And then I've heard this before, but I love when Julie said what other people think of you is none of your business, and it's so true. And I guess that could apply to alienation. You know, if my youngest has alienated me because I wasn't the mother that she wanted me to be, well, um, then that's her, her, her opinion, and um, it's none of my business. So there's, there's just um. So much I'm learning being part of PAA and working the 12 steps, and I want to continue to grow, to be the best version of myself, giving and showing up with unconditional love. But as it's a recovery program for us, I have a lot to learn about always remembering that I deserve that too. So those are my thoughts.

Speaker 3: 28:42

Thank you, mary, julie, how about you?

Speaker 5: 28:47

Any last thoughts has come up with, I think several of us is that the connection between your body and your mind, and that one of the first steps of self care is taking care of your body, which I think a lot of us forget. And I know Mary talked about having autoimmune issues. I've had autoimmune issues and one thing I've learned is that just something as simple as what I eat affects my whole everything. It could change whether or not I'm having an inflammatory response or an autoimmune response. And it's so simple. It's just what you eat. And that's what I think we need to remember when it comes to loving ourselves that it's as simple as just nourishing our bodies with the food we put in. And it starts there.

Speaker 5: 29:38

And I think most of us who come into these rooms no matter which 12-step program you did it through you come in thinking that you're going to fix your problems on that first meeting and often I think it's a surprise. I mean I came in with Alan on, so you know I came in because of what my ex-husband was doing and I thought we were there to fix him and was shocked to learn that in fact, no, that's not what you're there for. And I think people come into PAA thinking the same thing, like we're here to fix our kids. No, we're here to fix ourselves. And and it starts with the smallest of steps of how can you better take care of yourself? And it could be as simple as eating better. You know, just that tiniest little step to show yourself love and and it's amazing what a dramatic change that can create with something so small.

Speaker 5: 30:35

And I started to do a much better on this journey last summer when I decided to take a trip calls once a week and I felt like I was there.

Speaker 5: 30:54

I was going through a period where I felt like I had to stay put in just in case I could get my son back, and I realized that it didn't matter where on the planet I was.

Speaker 5: 31:03

I could have video calls and where I was on the planet was not going to change my situation with my son. And I took the step to go on a trip for me and for my husband and we traveled and we saw great things and we visited great people and and things started to change for my whole journey when I took that step for myself and I had to let go of the idea that I was being selfish. You know that here I am traveling when I'm going through this crisis. Here I am traveling when I'm going through this crisis, and. But I was going to be going through the crisis no matter what, and, and I could go through the crisis and hike Moab for the first time and see an incredible sunset and learn to love the life that I had not the life I wish I had and I think that it's helpful to start with the basics.

Speaker 3: 31:55

Thank you, Julie. Thank you for sharing that, Lawrence. How about you? Do you have some reflections on the conversation?

Speaker 2: 32:03

Man do. I have some reflections, but first of all, I just want to say what a great conversation this has been and really deep and powerful. And I just want to say what a great conversation this has been and really deep and powerful. And I just want to acknowledge, for anyone that's new to the podcast or new to our community, that it takes time to have these conversations. It takes time to reach the feelings and to work on yourselves enough to be able to process what's happening. And I know for me, initially coming in, I was just a hot mess and I just didn't want to die and I didn't care about you and having these conversations was not necessary, it wasn't a priority and it wasn't even on my radar. So I just want to acknowledge this is so powerful.

Speaker 2: 32:43

What we're talking about today and it's and it's for me, it's been a really, really, really slow process and, uh, what's alive for me is when I first got here, like I wanted my kids to love me and if my kids loved me then everything would be okay. Or I wanted work to go well and if work went well, everything was okay, and all these different things. And it was this really black and white thinking which ties back into the transactional and the unconditional, like there was no space for the different colors of the rainbow. You know, and what I've learned through program and doing other spiritual discovery and working on myself, that it's both and and not um, either, or right, like my kid doesn't like me and I love them, or whatever. It is like there's so many different things happening and it doesn't just have to be the way that I was raised, where you're good or you're bad. You did the right thing, you did the wrong thing. You know what I mean. The sky is blue, the sky is white, you know. Maybe there's a different shade of something from a reflection, and that's really what recovery looks like and that's really what I'm hearing in everyone's conversations is, uh, is, instead of having this really limit limiting belief system and this huge contraction, that there is so much space for creativity, and uh, reframing our lives and our spaces and how we communicate with everyone in our lives, including ourselves, and that's really what I find alive.

Speaker 2: 34:11

For me is, um, just the possibilities are endless and spacious as long as I'm working on myself and staying in my own lane. As soon as I start getting in my kids lane and wanting to control what direction they take or what bike they ride or you know which bus they're going on like everything falls apart. Everything falls apart because one more time I'm outside of myself trying to control something that's not on my business. You know what I mean. And uh, yeah, and steven had mentioned acceptance before and acceptance is really me staying in a place of where I'm taking care of myself and I'm welcoming. I'm welcoming the no, I'm welcoming that you're a bad dad. I'm welcoming you're not a great person, but I'm also welcoming I love you and you're an incredible dad and you're an incredible person. You know there's space. There's space for everything.

Speaker 2: 35:01

And, um, you know, I'll just finish with the other thing that that came up for me is, as I do this recovery work and as we have these deeper conversations and as I work on boundaries, I'm able to say things in a different way to take care of myself than I was when I first got here. When I first got here, I'm like, hey, don't talk to me that way. That's not a cool way to talk to your father. And now I can say, oh well, it sounds like you're really upset with me and yeah, I'm spotty upset with me too, and that kind of hurts too.

Speaker 2: 35:31

You know, both are true, you know, and that are true, you know, and that's really what recovery looks like and it's taken a long time and the 12 step meetings have been incredible and have saved my life in so many different ways and I got to do the work. No one's going to do it for me and it's not an easy path. It's probably a more complicated and harder path to actually show up for myself and and I that I do. And some days you know what I mean I go watch tv. You know, I mean I just have a nice netflix day with myself. So I just want to say that too, and thanks for all the questions on it thank you for sharing that, lawrence.

Speaker 3: 36:04

I think what's coming up for me is the amount of hope that I've got from program and the hope I'm feeling it this morning.

Speaker 3: 36:13

I feel it every time I go to a meeting, every time I'm involved in the community, because my showing up and doing this podcast I had anxiety around it but it was an act of self-love to show up for myself, telling myself I'm showing up for community, I'm showing up for my kids, I'm doing all of those things, I'm opening up the conversation, um, and I'm feeling the love from everybody in the room and the love that they have for themselves and I really am learning and really appreciating and acknowledging that when the conversation is done depending on how it leaves you feeling you and hopefully you feel energized and you feel loved you get to carry that through in your day.

Speaker 3: 36:51

So, whoever you're interacting with, whatever you're doing, I love the power of that because when I came into program and everything felt gray and not gray, black and desperate and dire, we do, we are able to improve and grow and heal when we do the work and then that energy spreads and that's contagious and I love that and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation and grateful for everyone's authenticity and vulnerability and the love that they're showing for themselves in showing up today. So thank you, thank you, thank you everyone, and thank you for allowing me to fumble my way through this process. I'm very grateful. Thank you, thank you, hannah.

Speaker 1: 37:33

You did great. I just can't tell you guys how much I enjoyed today it was. It's a really great blessing for me to be here with all of you and some I know better, some I I'm just getting to know, but I have a. I have my heart's filled with, uh, gratefulness, uh, today for sure.

Speaker 4: 37:52

You did a great job, man, thank you, thank you, it doesn't really feel like it right now.

Speaker 3: 37:58

I always have appreciation for you, lawrence, but wow, this is your. Wow, holy holy. I love talking. I've learned to talk in recovery, but this is holding space for everyone this way and yeah, it's wow.

Speaker 2: 38:15

Full of reverence for that and gratitude yeah thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of family disappeared podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.