Combating Parental Alienation With Expert Amy Baker Part 2 - Episode 47

Could you be the key to unlocking your child’s heart once again? In our heartwarming episode with Dr. Amy Baker, we explore the multifaceted journey of healing through parental alienation. Discover the essential strategies to become an A++ parent, even in the face of hurtful statements from your estranged child. Dr. Baker sheds light on the transformative power of writing amends letters, fostering empathy, and understanding towards your child, offering a path to rebuild fractured relationships.

We dive into the often-overlooked early signs of alienation, highlighting how seemingly minor behaviors can spiral into significant family issues. Learn how to recognize these signs, implement proactive communication strategies, and modify behaviors to protect your family dynamics. Practical advice, such as maintaining a journal and seeking early legal counsel, equips parents with the tools to address and resolve potential issues before they escalate.

Finally, this episode offers a beacon of hope for parents struggling with the complexities of parental alienation. From powerful stories of persistent parental love to actionable steps for enhancing attachment and navigating conflicts, we provide a comprehensive guide to reconnecting with your child. Hear touching success stories, including a father’s unwavering weekly visits and a mother's consistent gestures, illustrating the profound impact of showing up for your children, no matter the response. Join us for an inspiring journey towards healing and reconnection.

Dr Baker has generously offered a free session as a prize for our audience.  In order to be included in the competition, please do the following; SUBSCRIBE ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL, AND LEAVE THE COMMENT "Amy Baker Rocks".  Competition closes on June 24, 2024.    Competition winners will be announced one week after closing, and selected randomly from the YouTube comments.

Dr Amy Baker: www.amyjbaker.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

How can I help you navigate this situation? And one of the things that I say is you know you might be a great parent, but to navigate this you need to be A++. And that's my job is to help you be an A++ parent, because what you do still matters. I mean, if your child said to you you know I hate you let's say, typical alienated child, what you say back matters.

Speaker 2: 0:32

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lauren Strauss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. And today we have the second part of the interview with Dr Amy Baker and if you haven't listened to the first part, you need to go back immediately and start listening. It was a phenomenal conversation and today's show is just as powerful. And if you're new to the community, welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:32

We are a nonprofit and we're here to help anyone out there that's struggling with any form of parental alienation, estrangement or erasure, and we offer you free resources. We have a free 12-step program. There's a link in the show notes. There's 16, 17, 18 meetings a week available to you. We have the family hope project where you can contribute some art to some stuff we're doing. We have a bunch of other foundational trainings and uh, and we have this podcast. So whichever door you come through or are coming through, welcome. Please remember to like, share, let people know what's going on and let's jump into the second episode.

Speaker 2: 2:02

I didn didn't know how to engage my oldest daughter and I was really struggling and hurting and in a lot of pain and then I started hearing about amends letters and reading stuff about amends letters and I'm like, huh, I could do that and I didn't really know how to do that. I actually reached out to Dr Amy Baker and she has this 10-part protocol that she talks about on the episode how to write a am. I actually reached out to Dr Amy Baker and she has this 10 part protocol that she talks about on the episode how to write a men's letter and I really thought at that time that it was for my daughter. But what it did for me is it really gave me a perspective for what my daughter was experiencing and going through and it was an incredibly cathartic journey because I got to put myself in her shoes at her age and, developmentally, what was going on and also some of my behaviors, you know like.

Speaker 2: 2:50

What were my behaviors doing, even though they felt like they were really right and noble in in the moment. What were they doing and how were they landing with her? That really brought me to my knees in a lot of ways, you know, and broke my heart wide open and all those enemy images I had of my daughter kind of slipped away. She no longer was on the other side of the coin. I was actually understanding her perspective and it was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful opportunity to take a look at how my behavior could possibly land on someone so differently than what I was experiencing on my side.

Speaker 2: 3:28

And you definitely want to stay until the end of this episode to listen to the story Dr Amy Baker shares about the knock, because the knock really sums up everything thatI just shared. So let's jump right on into the show and see what happens next. The next question is is in families like there's some semblance of alienation or some semblance of just negative talk from one parent to the children, or both parents potentially, at times, and can you identify like a tipping point or a triggering point where it goes from just this little family dynamic that most probably most families have to it escalates to alienation and it just there's, like you just fell down the hill. Is there a tipping point that's identified?

Speaker 1: 4:12

Well, I'm not sure I would consider it a tipping point, but I would say that if the other parent is not willing to modify their behavior, even if they don't think that they're doing anything bad just to please you, then I think you have a problem in your marriage. In other words, you could say to your spouse I really don't like when you even jokingly you know, refer to me as the mean mommy, I'm just making up something. And the other person says you know, oh yeah, I guess I was just joking, but I hear that you don't like it, I won't do it anymore. Then it's not a problem. You know, you've resolved it. But if the person is completely unwilling even to say look, I don't think there's any wrong with it. My dad called my mom mean mommy. It was a joke. I think it's a joke. My kids know I love you, but you know, but I won't do it anymore because I hear that you don't want me to. If the person cannot modify their behavior for the sake of you know, the marriage. Prioritizing the marital relationship.

Speaker 2: 5:12

And.

Speaker 1: 5:12

I don't mean every single time. You can't have a thousand demands, you know. But if they're not willing to look at it and say, gee, why am I doing that? Yeah, I guess I wouldn't like it if you called me the dud dad. You know I could see how that wouldn't be so fun, you know, if they cannot do that, then I think that's I'm not sure that's a tipping point, but that is a moment where you might say to yourself we're not really in a workable marriage at this point. This person is not able to hear me hear me, definitely, yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:45

If someone can't have any kind of empathy or understand what's going on in the relationship, yeah, that definitely seems like a red flag and, as you're saying, it's not an identifiable tipping point, but it is useful information. And then what would you suggest to parents to do as they start to see some of these behaviors come out in a relationship? Is there anything that you suggest or coach folks that are in the early stages of parental alienation or even grappling with the idea that might be occurring? Is there something you suggest to folks?

Speaker 1: 6:11

I would say the first thing is to look at yourself and make sure that you're not antagonizing the other parent and maybe to keep some kind of journal for yourself about moments where you feel that the other person is undermining and interfering. That's the essence of parental alienation undermining and interfering. It's sort of colloquial Try to sort of keep track of it. Are you leaving that person out? Are you rolling your eyes, you know, and ask the other parent am I doing anything that's making you feel that I'm marginalizing you with the kids? You know, start by looking at yourself.

Speaker 1: 6:49

To me it's a win-win because maybe you are doing something and you can resolve it and then you know happily ever after you know you're done, or if the person isn't willing to engage around that or you don't think there is anything that you're doing, then at least you have a clean heart, and that's important, I think. So that's where I would suggest starting. When you're a little bit further down the road and you really sort of have done that and you really still feel that the other parent is undermining, I would start to document the different types of undermining and interfering that they're engaging in. A lot of times when people do that, it's way worse than they thought, Because they're like oh, I didn't realize that this was a part of it and that was a part of it. So, like, learn about the 17 primary parental alienation strategies.

Speaker 1: 7:39

They do kind of go together and I would start looking for a lawyer, because it's stressful to find a good lawyer and you don't want to have to do it in. You know, when the other person serves you with papers, because then you have like two weeks to respond and you don't want to be spending that two weeks hunting for a lawyer. You want to have them. That doesn't mean necessarily that they're on retainer or that you're spending family money behind the other person's back, but you've done a little bit of work. If you think you're going to head towards some kind of legal dispute, I think it's good to start to get the sense of who might be a good fit for you legally and then to document so that you can present to the lawyer not your supposition, but like, hey, I've been documenting for the last month and I've noticed, you know, here are some things that my ex is doing and I've tried talking to them about it and that doesn't seem to be making any difference. What do you think the next step is legally?

Speaker 2: 8:36

Yeah, and you've mentioned this several times do your own work, like parents need to actually show up and do their own interpersonal work so they're able to understand what's happening in the family system. And the idea about actually journaling or writing down the different nuances so you can really identify if it's just a really small issue in one or two spaces or just like really large issue that is, in so many different places and spaces in the home. I I love that idea to have something real and tangible to look at. Are there common misconceptions about parental alienation that you frequently encounter in your work?

Speaker 1: 9:11

Certainly when I was an expert witness, that's all you know. When I was on the stand it was just all about that. Why isn't it in the DSM? And this organization doesn't support it? So it's junk science. And Gardner, who coined the term, was a pedophile, which he wasn't.

Speaker 1: 9:27

I'm naming misperceptions. There's many, many Thankfully, when I'm a coach I don't have to really deal with them, and that's one of the reasons I stopped being an expert witness. It was so ugly and petty and mean-spirited and that's, I guess, the way it has to be, but I didn't enjoy that. The main misperception, I think, is that if you think that alienation is going on, that that means that you think everything is the other parent's fault and it's sort of like I'm perfect and the other person is an evil alienator and I think that that's as I said earlier. I think that's the problem with invoking the term is that people misunderstand what you mean by it. I think a misperception is that the person engaging in the alienation is doing it intentionally, and I don't think that has to be the case. I don't think we know we don't even know our own intentions all the time. I definitely don't think we can know somebody else's and it's pretty rare intentions all the time I definitely don't think we can know somebody else's. And it's pretty rare when the alienator says I'm going to turn the kids against you. So I think a lot of times the evaluators or the judge or people misunderstand and say oh well, the favorite parent says they want the kids to have a relationship with you, so it can't be alienation. And that's obviously ridiculous In my opinion. You can't know why somebody does something or what their intention is.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Another misperception is conflating alienation with badmouthing. So somebody will say oh well, mrs So-and-so, you know, never badmouths the dad, so it can't be alienation. You know there's 17 primary parental alienation strategies. Bad mouthing is only one and it's the most common. But it doesn't mean that there has to be bad mouthing for there to be alienation. And there used to be this is my last one there used to be the misperception that it was something that only mothers did to fathers. So poor moms back in the day would say I think alienation is going on. And somebody would say well, it can't be that, because Gardner said only mothers do it. And of course Richard Gardner never said only mothers did it.

Speaker 1: 11:46

He said it was mostly mothers, and then he even retracted that as time went by. He said you know, I actually think that it's, you know, probably equal between mothers and fathers engaging in alienation, but there's still this sort of false idea that it's mothers.

Speaker 2: 12:03

What would be like three immediate actions. You could tell people like do these three things immediately. They're the most important thing to do as you find yourself in this situation.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Learn how to enhance the attachment with your child, learn how to navigate conflict, get good support I mean. I could go on and on. There's like a hundred things people can do, but those are sort of the ones that come to my mind. The more you can improve the sense of closeness with your child, the less likely it is that they'll become alienated, because there'll be trust there. The more you can navigate conflict without inadvertently reinforcing the lie you know, the better off you're going to be.

Speaker 2: 12:46

And in a lot of conversations that I have with parents and grandparents, they have this idea that someone's doing something to them. They're talking about the disorders, they're talking about parental alienation, and it seems counterintuitive that they actually need to do their own work, like you're saying, figuring out how to connect better with the kids, how to communicate, how to resolve conflict. And what do you do when people come in and they're putting themselves in the victim role? They're totally pointing outside of themselves continuously and they don't think that it's their work to do as the target of parent, because they feel like I'm not doing anything.

Speaker 1: 13:20

So that doesn't happen that often. Because people come to me and pay me and schedule a session with me because they want some help, they're already the people who are like I have nothing to learn, I don't want to change myself at all. Those aren't the people who are signing up for coaching. At the same time, people don't always know what they're getting into when they sign up for a coaching session and they might be wanting more. Poor you, poor you, and I don't do a lot of that. I mean, I'm very sympathetic for what my clients are going through, but I'm also kind of like okay, now how can I help you navigate this situation? And one of the things that I say is you know, you might be a great parent, but to navigate this you need to be A++. And that's my job is to help you be an A++ parent, because what you do still matters.

Speaker 1: 14:22

I mean, if your child said to you you know I hate you, let's say typical alienated child. What you say back matters, a typical alienated child, what you say back matters. You could say F, you go live with the other parent if you hate me. Or you could say that must not feel good to be so upset with me and a hundred other things in between. So I believe that what the targeted parent does still matter.

Speaker 1: 14:47

It's like you don't control whether you get cancer, but what you do, what treatment you get, your diet, your exercise, your frame of mind still matter. It's like you don't control whether you get cancer, but what you do, what treatment you get, your diet, your exercise, your frame of mind still matters. So I just thought of that right now. That's what I say to my clients, like you're the person on the phone, you're the person I'm going to work with, and it doesn't mean you deserve what happens to you, it doesn't mean you caused what happens to you, but what you do still matters and I think, empowering to people. I mean except for people who just want to be stuck in victim mode, but that's generally not true. For people who are like searching for a coach and reaching out to me, they're already ahead of the game because they want to know what I have to say.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Right. So I'm hearing that targeted parents can empower themselves and have agency and as they're reaching out to people, they're actually part of the solution. They're doing their own work and they're putting themselves in a much better position to be successful and to get that A++ grade that you're talking about. And we also have a large contingency of younger folks that listen to the podcast and might have been previously estranged or alienated or whatever terminology that they would use. Do you have any recommendations to that population of the community, how to reach out in the opposite direction, to their parents or their grandparents, to maybe foster some kind of connection?

Speaker 1: 16:11

their parents or their grandparents to maybe foster some kind of connection.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Well, most of my clients would be thrilled if their adult child reached out to them. So I think that I'm trying to think about how to say this, because I generally work with the targeted parents, so I'm going to flip it for a moment and then see if I can answer your question. One of the hardest things for targeted parents who reconnect with their adult, formerly alienated child is not having a shared reality about what happened, and I do a lot of coaching with my clients about even if you get your child back, whatever that means, you know we write the letter and even if you get your child to, you know if the letter sparks a desire for reconnection, it doesn't mean your child's going to apologize to you for the ways in which they hurt you when they were a child. You know didn't let you go to their sweet 16 party, whatever told you not to show up for soccer practice, moved out of the house. However, they broke your heart. They don't really owe you an apology because they were a child. They didn't ask to be alienated and they may still want a relationship with the favorite parent, even the kids who are like I get it. Mom did this and that's why I cut you off Dad, and this happened and that happened and I see the whole thing. They still don't necessarily see the alienator the way you, the targeted parent, does, because they were your ex-spouse. They're still a parent and we are hardwired genetically to maintain contact with our parents, even parents who are really bad to us, which is what makes alienation so extreme, because these kids are cutting off a parent for frivolous reasons, right, but in general it's very, very hard.

Speaker 1: 17:57

You know, I tell my clients, like, think about the relationship with your own parents. I'm sure they hurt and frustrated and disappointed you and you still probably have a relationship with them. So you can't expect the adult alienated child to apologize or to cut off the other parent and the targeted parents who get that they're going to be okay and they're going to have a good relationship with their adult alienated child. It's like day one when the kid comes back. That's day one and you move forward. If you're still like, but I didn't get to go to your prom, it's not going to be a safe space for the adult alienated child to come back to.

Speaker 1: 18:37

So I would say for an adult alienated child who's reaching out or thinking about reaching out, to think about what you need from the relationship and to maybe be clear with the targeted parent Like mom, I want to, or dad, I want to have a relationship with you. It's been a long time. I don't want to talk about the past. If that's how you feel, maybe you do want to talk about the past. Or dad, I want to have a relationship. It's been a long time.

Speaker 1: 19:05

I don't want you to expect me to apologize. I know you got hurt, but that wasn't on me and can we just move forward if that's how you feel. I do know that a lot of adult alienated kids have a lot of shame and a lot of guilt and I think that the more they can understand that they were children, they didn't ask this to happen to them. Just like sexually abused victims don't ask to be abused, sexually, physically abused kids don't ask to be physically abused. And if they can forgive themselves for what happened and set some kind of not necessarily ground rules but explain where they're coming from to the parent, I think that would probably be the best.

Speaker 2: 19:56

I love it. That's some sage advice and I'm also hearing that, as young adults or previously alienated adults, whatever it is, you know, do your own work, be very clear about your boundaries and what you would like in the relationship and communicate that. So that's wonderful. And also following up on what you said, when previously targeted parents or previously alienated parents reconnect with their kids and they've missed this whole scope of seminal events weddings, births, deaths, graduations how do you suggest for them to just meet the child or young adult where they are and then just take one step at a time, even though they've missed all this time?

Speaker 1: 20:40

want to consciously work on their relationship the parent and the formerly alienated, now adult person. I do have this book called Restoring Family Connections, for a therapist to do 13 activities with this dyad the parent and the formerly alienated, now adult child. And the formerly alienated, now adult child 13 weekly activities to help them figure out what the relationship is going to look like moving forward. And one of the activities they have sort of corny names now that I look back and think about it, but one of them is called milestones and the purpose of the activity, the vision that I have, is that there's actually like a bowl of beautiful stones, you know, and each stone has like a word on it, like prom or puppy or holiday or whatever, and the adult child can pick one.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Let's say prom and say Dad, I know you didn't get to go to my prom, I didn't let you, and I just want to tell you this is what I wore and this is what it was like and you know I wish that we could have been there together, but you know I wanted the most exciting thing about the prom blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Share the memory, then hands the stone to the parents and says you know, I thought about you on that day and it's so exciting to know that you were wearing, you know, the tuxedo that I, you know, whatever, sharing, finding some way to sort of close up that hole. And then, you know, then they put the stone in another bowl, sort of the bowl of, like, completed memories, and the idea is that it's demystifying it and making it not a taboo subject, because they won't have to be worried that you know, oh, I'm not supposed to mention, or we never processed, or whatever. It just becomes part of their shared vernacular, even though the moment itself wasn't shared. So that's a, you know, very concrete way to do it. I'm sure there are other ways too.

Speaker 2: 22:53

Oh, I love that. That gave me goosebumps, because it brings it into the field of view and you can talk about it and you can relate about it and potentially even joke about a one day and, like you're saying, it takes it out of the taboo and it just brings it into the normal flow of the conversation and I yeah, I love that. I can see those beads or those rocks or something really intentional passing along and then become coming part of your history as well, and I know that our listeners would love to hear this. Can you share maybe one or two of your favorite success stories, what, what those look like and they really feel heartwarming to you.

Speaker 1: 23:33

Sure, so one is a coaching client happens to be a mom, but I have, I find, equal moms and dads I guess, maybe being a woman right now I'm thinking more mom stories but plenty of wonderful dad clients. So her daughter was in like 11th grade when the alienation really kicked in. By the time we started coaching, the child was coming for visitation but basically screaming at the mother the whole time or locked in the room and eventually she just stopped coming and the mom didn't have a lot of money and the daughter was already older, she knew it was. There was no point in going to court and we went through the whole pros and cons. You know, should she file a motion to enforce parenting time or try to get one of the elite, you know immersion programs? And it wasn't a good fit for her for a couple of reasons. So what she did was for the entire like 12th grade, she texted her daughter, you know, almost every day like I'm going to Jamba Juice. That was something the daughter liked, you know, can I pick you up one? And often the daughter would text back like mango or something. Just like the flavor, you know, not like mom, thank you, I would love that and the mom would go and get it and go to the dad's house where you know. You know it's a bitter pill to go to the other parent's house when your child's supposed to be with you but they're there instead and the window would go down. You know the girl would come out to that car like, just reach in, take the Jamba juice and leave. Jamba Juice and leave. And I mean this mom did this, you know, probably for a whole year. And then the girl goes to college and within you know a week or two, hey, mom want to come visit. And the mom went down and visited her daughter at college. She showed up and of course there's more to the story. There were older girls and she had complicated relationships with them and she had complicated relationships with them, which maybe helped. But it just shows you that even the most rejecting, hurt, angry, distant child underneath wants a relationship with their parent.

Speaker 1: 25:45

And then I have a case where it was the dad and I think I was the expert witness for this case and he called me one day after I was in court, after things resolved legally, whatever it was, and he told me that his girls told him he was driving them somewhere. You know, conversations in the car are always like really good. And they said to him oh you know, dad, all those emails you sent that we never read, we never responded to, we were reading them. We really liked hearing from you. And these are girls who would like cut him off. No contact for the longest time. And they were like, oh yeah, we were reading them.

Speaker 1: 26:27

So it's sort of the same version of the story. You have to keep showing up and letting your kid know that you were there. And I got that message most clearly from a woman I interviewed for my first book and she told me the story that her dad had visitation every Sunday. I think they lived in England, maybe that's the way it was. He showed up every Sunday, knocked on the door and the mom and stepdad never let the woman I was interviewing when she was a little girl, never let her out. The door never opened. In fact they stood in the other side of the door yelling at this poor guy you idiot, we hate you.

Speaker 2: 27:11

Oh, is it the mailman we?

Speaker 1: 27:12

don't need any mail today, you know. And eventually the guy gave up and I asked the woman, who was now an adult, what was it like for you when your dad stopped coming? And she said I was shocked. I never knew that I could make him go away. That's not what I wanted. She said I knew that my mom and stepdad were never going to open the door and let me have a visit. The knock was the whole visit for me. That was my father's message, saying that he still loved me. So from the dad's point of view, the visit was a failure because he drove over there, walked up the steps, knocked on the door and nothing happened. But from the daughter's point of view, it was a success because her dad was saying I love you. So Wow, yeah, yeah, I get, I get goosebumps.

Speaker 1: 28:10

I tell that story. I call it the knock and it's sort of the metaphor for showing up. And of all the people I interviewed, I think she might have been the only one who never reconnected, even though she had done the entire internal process. I said wait, what you know, your mother, da-da-da-da-da, you know this happened and this happened and this happened, how come? And she said I'm worried he'll be mad at me because he gave up. So you have to keep showing up. That doesn't mean literally showing up. It's what. The context might be different for you, but finding some way, whether it's calling and leaving a voicemail, even if you think you're blocked sending text messages, even if you're told not to, unless there's certain caveats. Like if the kid says I'm going to kill myself if you show up again, of course you can't show up. If there's a restraining order, of course you can't violate the restraining order. But absent that, you have to find a way to keep letting your kid know that you love them so that they can come back to you when they're ready.

Speaker 2: 29:18

Well, that is some wonderful examples, and the knock is incredibly poignant and sums up so much of what we go through and and are so blind to, at the same time, like we don't know what's on the other side of the knock. That's just a wonderful way to segue to my final question for you Is there anything else you would like to share with the community? Say to the community to let them know how to get in contact with you, or anything that you got coming up that you'd like them to know about.

Speaker 1: 29:46

Well, I'm easy to reach because my website is my name, amy J L Baker, and my phone number's on there, my email's on there.

Speaker 1: 29:57

I offer coaching for targeted parents. I also do case consultation for clinicians and sometimes my clients find it very helpful to do a three-way with their attorney to try to sort of brainstorm, because I have a sort of a vision 10,000 foot view. I'm not a lawyer. I don't tell lawyers how to do their job, but I have a vision of how to manage a PA case that sometimes lawyers find helpful. So yeah, I just want to be helpful. I know it's just grueling and devastating to go through this.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Well, I think you're a rock star and it's been such a pleasure spending a couple minutes with you and just hearing your perspectives and your hope and the knock, the knock really seals the whole conversation. So thank you so much again for spending this time with us.

Speaker 1: 30:50

My pleasure Great questions. Really enjoyed the conversation and yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:56

Well, I promised you that we'd be giving away a free session for Dr Amy Baker and this is a wonderful opportunity for you to work with her on one-on-one. And so how you qualify to be in this raffle is I need you to go to YouTube and I need you to go to comments for the show and you just need to comment we love Amy Baker and then we'll take everyone that puts in a comment, we'll stick you guys in a fishbowl and we will have a drawing and whoever's name comes out, we'll get this free session with Dr Amy Baker. So we'd love to hear from you we love Amy Baker Anything else you'd like to comment about the show and you'll get added to the raffle and we'll run this raffle for one week after the show is aired and from that show airing date, seven days later, we will pick out of a fishbowl the name of the person who wins and I will message you back on YouTube and let you know that you've won and we'll connect you with Dr Amy Baker. Know that you've won and we'll connect you with dr amy baker. Wow, I wish I had like a super wow, let's. Oh, there he is. We just found it. Super wow, what a what a phenomenal show and uh, dr amy baker is is a rock star and uh really, really, really enjoyed the conversation and so grateful for her to take the time to come out and share her knowledge, experience, love and hope with us and our community. I hope you enjoyed the show.

Speaker 2: 32:18

If there's anyone else that you would like to be interviewed, please send us an email Emails. In the show notes there's links to the 12-step program the free 12-step program in the show notes. We're also a non-profit and can use any kind of donations or any resources that you have that you would like to share and and that allows us to bring this podcast to you, that allows us to have free 12-step meetings, that that allows us to have free trainings and other resources for you folks. And if you don't have any resources, everything's free. Please continue to participate and show up meetings and and do whatever you want.

Speaker 2: 32:52

This is really about creating community and uh, walk in this journey together and um, there's a wonderful quote by ram das at least pretty sure it was ram das. He says we'll just walk in each other home, and that's what this community is is just to have someone to walk with. So thank you for being here today. Remember, like, share, tell everyone about, help us support the community and, in case someone hasn't told you yet, today I love you and I hope you have a beautiful day and, wherever you are you know, I hope you can feel the light. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.