Navigating the Legal System Through a “Child-Centric Approach” With Expert Cathy Himlin Part 2 - Episode 49

Ever wondered why the current family law system feels so inadequate? Join us for an enlightening conversation as we tackle the urgent need for family law reform, prioritizing the well-being of children over contentious litigation. We sit down with Cathy Himlin, an expert in both the foster care system and family law, to explore how channeling resources into counseling and support can significantly reduce conflicts and help families heal. Cathy shares her profound insights into the similarities between the foster care system and cases of parental alienation, offering practical legal processes that could be adapted to improve outcomes.

In our compelling discussion with Cathy, we dive into the emotional trauma and attachment disorders that children face in high-conflict divorces. Cathy sheds light on how attachment ruptures in these situations can mirror the emotional harm seen in foster care cases. Our conversation emphasizes the critical need for timely intervention and supervised visitation to prevent prolonged separation and additional trauma. We also discuss the importance of skilled therapists who can help children articulate their feelings of rejection and begin the healing process, making a strong case for systemic change.

We then shift our focus to the pressing need for family court system reform. The discussion highlights the lack of child-centered training for judges and attorneys and proposes the introduction of specialized roles such as court officers and trained social workers to provide essential insights into family dynamics and child development. Finally, we offer practical tips for parents on selecting effective therapists, stressing the importance of confidentiality, unbiased communication, and the right therapeutic approaches. Tune in for a rich discussion aimed at fostering better family dynamics and advocating for systemic change.

Click on the parent section on Cathy's website to sign up for the free 15 minute consultation mentioned in the podcast.
Cathy Himlin - www.himlinconsulting.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

If we would stop being so parent litigious, focused in courts and mediators would agree with me most mediators and child attorneys for family law. If we would just focus on what the kids need, we would have less litigation, less fighting, less money for that. Put more money into counseling and support of the children and the family to help them heal and we wouldn't have all these problems. Maybe not, it's not 100%, you know cure, but it would definitely, I guarantee you, reduce the stuff that I see.

Speaker 2: 0:29

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves.

Speaker 2: 0:53

In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Strauss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. If you're new to the community, welcome. If you're a regular to the community, welcome. So, basically, everyone welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:14

And today we're going to have the second part of the interview with Kathy Himlin, which is just fascinating. Just a wonderful, wonderful conversation that's full of different nuances and some great information. And in this episode we get to something really interesting when we're talking about the similarities between the foster care system and alienation, some forms of estrangement and just some of the processes that already exist in the foster care system within the legal court system that we could adapt in the court system for anyone in a conflict, in divorce or child austerity or whatever it is. So that's really hopeful that it exists and really scary that it hasn't been added to the court system. And again, if you're new to the community, we're a 501c3 nonprofit. We have 18 free support group meetings weekly online. Come out and join the community. It's Parental Alienation Anonymous. It's a wonderful, wonderful place and it's for parents, grandparents, any other family members that are struggling with alienation, estrangement or erasure. It's for young adults and adults that have been alienated or estranged from their parents. We have specific meetings for you too, so it has the privacy and a container set up for you too. And, yeah, this is going to be an exciting show. Let's jump in and see what happens.

Speaker 2: 2:28

So, during my journey with parental alienation, I reached out to some different experts that are names that everyone recognized and I'm not going to say anyone's name in particular, but I met with this one person and it was a really really, really really strange experience. I met with them. They had a lot of really really good information and I really appreciated it. And then, when I was done meeting with them, I'm like hey, like is it okay to follow up, have another appointment, stuff like that, and I tried for several months to get a response by email, via text, via, via any means, and this person never responded to me.

Speaker 2: 3:03

And the reason that I share the story with you is, at that time, it felt really dysregulating and hurtful and I felt really really desperate. The thing that I couldn't see is that, hey, I need to make a different decision. This person's clearly not available and there are going to be other people out there that are qualified and available, and instead of spending all my energy creating anxiety, creating fear, all the ruminating thoughts that come along with another rejection, I should have just moved on. So I just wanted to share that with you. If you're dealing with a professional out there and it doesn't feel resonant that they're not getting back to you, take care of yourself.

Speaker 2: 3:36

There's other people out there that are really doing a great job, and Kathy Himlin is one of them, and the second part of the interview is phenomenal. So let's jump on in. I'm going to take a little go down a little different path here, Kathy, because I know that when you first got into this field, that you were actually working within the foster care system and doing stuff like that, and some of the research that I've read and some of the articles I've read. They compare like the foster care system, and some of the attachment disorders that happen in the foster care system are very similar to what parents are going through in this high conflict, divorce and targeted parent alienation whatever word you want to use, but there's a correlation. Do you find that to be true, having actually been seeped in both of these different arenas?

Speaker 1: 4:24

I'm not sure the correlation, other than maybe you could explain what you mean by that so I can understand what you mean, because I don't know about the research you've looked at or the articles, from my understanding, when in the foster care system that the kids are.

Speaker 2: 4:41

I think maybe what I'm getting to is just that the kids are going through a lot of trauma and they have a hard time trusting and bonding and reintegrating in certain instances because they are harmed emotionally, spiritually, and I think we see a lot of that in the parental alienation effect and I think that's what the research that I saw these kids were suffering similar attachment disorders or similar anxiety or similar trust issues.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Sure, well, that would make sense. So from an attachment standpoint now, I understand from an attachment standpoint, when children don't want to see a parent, the funny thing is, for whatever reason, they're feeling rejected themselves. So it's an interesting thing. They're feeling like they're not loved, they're not listened to, they're not understood. So it's, it's a. It's an interesting thing. They're feeling like they're not loved, they're not listened to, they're not understood. So there's an attachment that's happened, attachment rupture, we call it. That's happened and they've it's been. The relationship's broken, basically, you know, it's just broken and physically they're not seeing them. So they're stuck in this situation with another, with the one parent, without anyone correcting that necessarily Sometimes the other parent does. I've seen some cases where the other parent's very supportive but they're stuck here without this rejected parent countering with anything positive.

Speaker 1: 5:55

What's going on in their brain and I'll give you an example which could be very similar to dependency cases with foster kids is when one parent ends up leaving the home and I've worked on a few cases where I've had kids actually say my mom or dad, I don't remember, it doesn't matter, my parent doesn't love me. Because they left and I try to understand this and they go. Well, they walked out of the door and I don't see them in the morning for breakfast anymore. They don't take me to school anymore, they don't love me anymore, they don't love my other parent anymore. They don't understand that their parents are separated and somebody's got to go, that this is not an abandonment situation and it could be in a situation where this parent is trying to see the child more, but something's going on over here in this home where that's not going to happen. So then this child feels this, this rupture, and then that turns out to be the reason why they're rejecting. See, it gets. It gets really very complicated. I've been on a few of those cases.

Speaker 1: 6:57

And for dependency, whoosh, I mean just you're, they're in dependency, they're in foster care because someone, one of the parents, have either neglected or abused them in some way, shape or form. So right, there is an attachment rupture. I mean that you, your caretaker, your safe base that's what your parents are shouldn't be hurting you. That's just innately something that shouldn't be happening, and so that's a severance. And then, if you end up in foster care, then you're in somebody else's care and there's an abandonment.

Speaker 1: 7:24

There too there's a physical separation, luckily in dependency with foster kids, at least in California. I can't speak to the rest of the country, but we're supposed to allow contact almost immediately, depending on the reason behind the removal of the child from the home. So, unless it's something that's very severe and we won't go into those examples because they're pretty not good to talk about but the average foster kid should at least have supervised visitation with family law. They don't get that and that's what needs to change in the family law system is they are not. They're letting kids go like a month, six months, a year without even facilitating supervised visitation, which is again contributing to this rejection. If the system has now come in and now traumatizing the family because the law is different, they don't have to and they should.

Speaker 2: 8:15

Yeah, that's fascinating that the foster care system it's mandatory, or it seems like it happens really early in the process that the parent gets integrated and in the family court system there's nothing in the law that says the kids have to be in connection with their parent. That's heartbreaking, that's confusing, heartbreaking, crazy making, I guess. Right, and you said something that I want to just continue on for a couple of minutes here. You said the child actually feels rejected, they're rejecting a parent, but a lot of it, I'm hearing, is reactivity and the child's actually feeling rejected, hurt, no matter what it is. They could have heard a conversation, something could have happened, someone could have told them something, but their actual injury is feeling rejected too. So it's really interesting how the parents being rejected and the kids actually mirroring the exact same experience, but doesn't have the vocabulary or the developmentally, is not able to communicate that hey, mom, dad, uncle, parent, whoever my heart's breaking, you're rejecting me and this sucks.

Speaker 1: 9:15

And if you don't have a therapist, you can flush that out. Not that, again, I'm any big deal, but I mean you need to have a good therapist to get these kids in, and it's my argument. One way I would love to see the family law system to change is having these children into family therapy immediately, having the children and the parents be seen together immediately, and if you think that there's domestic violence or some safety issue, okay, then let's do some supervised visitation and make it positive, Like, don't keep them separate, like, like it's the system that does it too. So no, it's just, it's so frustrating, it's. It's hard for me because a lot of my cases that I get on my counseling side, the therapy side these people have been in court for like six months a year, two years or more, and I have parents who haven't seen their kids for months or years by the time I get them. If they would start in court involved family therapy earlier, half the problems I have to work through with a family wouldn't be there. So it'd be so nice. And if they did that and had some sort of contact consistent contact that was forced I don't mean the word forced, but by court made sure that happened again, qualifying no safety issues here I'm talking about just families that there's no domestic violence or abuse then we wouldn't have this issue as big. It would be a smaller issue, we'd be able to contain it.

Speaker 1: 10:37

But if the court system just the way it is and I'm not criticizing anybody in particular, it's just the system drags things out so long and then things just, it's just an exponential trauma thing that happens. It's not cool. It needs to be changed. I wish I knew how. I'll say this to everybody If there's any way to change it, let's go up to Sacramento and start with them. I don't know how to change it, but I know that if we would stop being so parent litigious, focused in courts and mediators would agree with me most mediators and child attorneys for family law if we would just focus on what the kids need, we would have less litigation, less fighting, less money for that. Put more money into counseling and support of the children and the family to help them heal and we wouldn't have all these problems. Maybe not, it's not 100%, you know cure, but it would definitely, I guarantee you, reduce the stuff that I see 100%.

Speaker 2: 11:33

That makes perfect sense. And yeah, my next question was like what do you suggest to change it? But I hear spending more money resolving some of the wasted funds and really centering on the children and and I think you also bring up a really important topic that not a lot of parents that are in the middle of this whirlwind of pain and longing and hurt and confusion really get that this is a systemic issue, it's not a personal issue. The system is actually broken and not built to support what's happening in the family court system. It was never intended for that.

Speaker 1: 12:04

Right and I don't hear and I don't know and I don't you know if any judges hear this or attorneys, because I love working with judges and attorneys. Yeah, I mean, I just look at my website and work with them too to try to help them be child centered. I just there's not enough training and I really think judges and attorneys need more training on child centered issues and how we could approach these cases. I'm not saying all judges aren't. There are some judges that are brilliant and they understand family dynamics and what therapists need to do to help a family and why children at certain ages do what they do. There is some, but I think as a group, the system needs to really have a rehaul on that and I think that would again make a big difference if we had that.

Speaker 2: 12:50

I couldn't agree with you more. Having these conversations with judges, lawyers, any stakeholders, including therapists, psychologists and you know there's a lot of folks out there that are really great at what they do. When they get into stuff that's complex, they're not necessarily seeing a lot of the the moving parts and following up on that. Because you do work with some of the stakeholders in the court system, like when you go into educate judges or attorneys or anything like that, I know you offer those resources. Do you actually? Is there a robust amount of people that are trying to educate themselves and do care about the system, that are already participating in the system, or is it just like 1% or like a really, really small amount of people that are actually open to being educated?

Speaker 1: 13:33

Well, I haven't gone out there to try to get to larger groups. I have been asked to do some trainings around this already the last couple of years at the San Diego Family Law Bar Association. It's a long, long, long phrase there. I have done some training this child-centered family, court-involved family therapy. I have spoken to some individual attorneys. I don't live, so to speak, in the courtroom so I don't get exposed to them a lot, but when I do, there is some, I mean, and a lot of the attorneys who specialize in representing children, the we call them child attorneys or sometimes guardian of items. I don't work with them so much and I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to try to explain the difference, but some of those are very aware. You know, when I have conversations with some attorneys locally and across the country, there's been a few that have asked me to speak to their law firms. They see it and they want this to happen and they don't know how to change it either. So it is such a huge system to overhaul but I'm I just I'm going to keep saying it out loud to everybody I meet, because someday somebody is going to either do it and I'll go right next to them come up with a plan, because it's such a big issue, I don't know. I mean, I have another solution I thought of. That would be great, but again it would take money to do this.

Speaker 1: 14:55

When I was in dependency cases with foster care we call it dependency, I don't know what they call it across the country when I was a frontline worker, I was a reunification worker. I mean, that was my label and that when after the children were detained, put into foster care or other relatives home, my job was to help reunify. My job was to help bring the children back. I wasn't in a therapist position. I had to do social work stuff. To do that, I became what's called a court officer and I sat in the courtroom for three years and wrote stipulations and sat next to the clerk and I was able to. Part of my job was to be the liaison between social services, child protective services whatever the name is in each county, and the judge in the court and it was part of my job to educate the judges on where these children were at, why the parents were doing what they're doing, the family dynamics, all the whole thing, and understand why the social workers or a therapist was doing again what they were doing. And that was such a nice thing because then the judges were armed with information they wouldn't get because they don't teach this stuff in law school.

Speaker 1: 16:01

They need someone who has that specialty next to them, advising them or at least answering questions not advising, advising, like telling them how to judge on a case but they can ask questions and understand context and understand why things happen the way they do. I really believe that if they put someone like that in each courtroom for family law and had someone that could answer, like what would be in the child's best interest, that might be a way. But again, that is going to cost money. They have it in some counties. I don't know if all of California has this, but in some of our counties, at least in Southern California, this position exists still and you have one or two social workers in each courtroom. Independency that's all we do is do those things so and we help out and help clarify. We're interpreters, basically, of social work and therapy and child development.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And this is in the foster care system. Yes, so the position already exists, it's already has a track record or it's already been proven, but it's never made its way into family court, is what I'm hearing you say.

Speaker 1: 17:03

Right, what they have in family court, at least in in. Again, I don't I'm not familiar with all the courts in California or across the country, but what they have here is like a family court services, almost like a mediator, where they meet with the parents one time for a couple hours, maybe they write up the recommendation and that's it, and they may meet with a kid or not, the child or not, but they don't have this other thing that I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 17:27

I think that sounds like a wonderful intervention that's already been invented. It's just a matter of how it gets implemented in a family court system and the system so the jungle debt to get that sounds like a very steep uphill battle, but a wonderful, wonderful thing for you to share with that. I hadn't heard that before, that that already exists in some form of a court system within the systemic framework, so that's wonderful. And you had also shared with me that you offer folks a free 15-minute consultation to see if your services would potentially fit for what they're struggling with or what they're going through. And in order for them to engage you on this, what would they do? Would they go to your website, like how do they do that?

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah, just they need to go to himlandconsultingcom and there I have three different sections. Parents are my focus on this website. I support, I have trainings coming out for a therapist to help support them. I have that modality I'm going to eventually have a training for to teach them. And I have a section for attorneys. They just go to the parent section and they can click on the link and they have a choice. They can sign up for the parenting class, consult with me, pay consultation or do a 15-minute free consultation.

Speaker 2: 18:42

Consultation or do a 15 minute free consultation wonderful, and we'll make sure to put all that stuff in the show notes. So if you're driving, don't pull over. If you're doing something, keep doing it. We'll make sure everything's in the show notes for you. And you were talking about coaching sessions and group coaching sessions. I know you don't have a lot of the groups going right now, but, like on a coaching session, what would someone expect and what would be useful about it for someone that's really in this place that they're really struggling to get their kids or regulate emotionally or anything else that that would happen in this kind of situation?

Speaker 1: 19:14

Sure, I mean it would. Basically, I would take down information on what your specific situation is and if you were rejected by your child, for instance, then I would start giving skills that would tailor to you on how to make it more child-centered, how to calm the family system down. I'm not doing therapy, I'm just doing parenting coaching and how to support the relationship between them and their child, for sure.

Speaker 2: 19:47

That's wonderful, because this is so confusing and we go through so many highs and lows. To really talk with someone that's educated A as a therapist but really knows the intricacies of the court system and what's really happening and how to navigate, that sounds phenomenal. And I'd ask you this follow-up question For someone that gets the list of three and is picking out a therapist like, what suggestions you have for folks around the country and in other parts of California when they're looking at this list the country and in other parts of California when they're looking at this list, are there some questions you think are really important to ask a therapist or something to note when you're looking at these different lists that might be really useful to pick out someone that's the most equipped and qualified to get you where you would like to go with your kids?

Speaker 1: 20:35

Oh for sure there's several. One big thing is ask them about confidentiality and how they feel that way about their children, the children that they work with or the families that they work with, because some therapists will say I'm not talking to you, parent, because this is my client. Even in family therapy they'll do that. They'll shut a parent down and they'll shut the parent down that's been rejected and they'll listen to one parent. So you want to look for bias and you want to look for someone who isn't, who's going to favor one or the other and who isn't going to want to talk to you. So one of the requirements in my company is that we have to be able to talk to the parents period. Kids don't live in a vacuum and they're part of the treatment process. Sure, there's confidentiality, like for individual therapy, but these are their children and you need to help them understand what progress they're making. So make sure you're around a therapist who gets that, who doesn't appear to have bias towards the other parent and doesn't look at you like you've done something wrong when there's absolutely no allegations that have been documented or anything, because sometimes they'll want to pick one of the parents They'll contribute. Well, there's absolutely no allegations that have been documented or anything, because sometimes they'll they'll want to pick, you know, one of the parents. They'll contribute. Well, there's therapists that will contribute to the problem too.

Speaker 1: 21:44

What was the other thing? And being court informed, understanding like if they've never worked on a case that's court involved. I wouldn't work with them either because they don't understand. Family therapy is one thing. Family therapy involved or individual involved with court is completely different animal. And if you don't understand, like you said, the intricacies of what involves in those dynamics, understanding the behavioral aspects of how one parent could pit the other, the child, against the other, then you're just going to contribute to the problem without realizing it. So those are one things to look for. I don't know if there's anything else. Those are the big ones that stand out that I hear about that are problems.

Speaker 1: 22:26

If it's a family therapist, then you want to find out are they going to really focus on the child's needs, not the child's secrets, which is different, right, the child's needs, as opposed to just, you know, forcing the child to speak to the parent and understand how the parent's feeling? That's a red flag too. And if they don't take the time to just find out, you know, ask them questions about what their process is. What do they do to make sure the child feels protected and safe and is feeling understood and listened, to Find out if they have attachment family or attachment training at all, attachment therapy training at all? You know, we don't do DBT in these cases. We don't do EMDR. I had somebody come in that had someone try to do EMDR in a family and I'm like, yeah, that that that doesn't work in. This is great, great technique, but for this type of thing it's just not a an appropriate thing. Right't work in this, it's a great technique, but for this type of thing it's just not an appropriate thing right.

Speaker 2: 23:24

It's a technique, you know. I love the idea of making sure that they have experience. If they don't have experience, this is not a good fit. That's a pretty straight line. And that they are again centering the child. Are they able to listen to the child, find out the child's needs, not center one parent or the other. And this idea of bias.

Speaker 2: 23:40

I see that all the time where someone's projecting something, even if they're a therapist and I want to say this out loud to everyone out there therapists are people too, and some therapists are really well-trained and some therapists are just struggling with something in their own life. So it's really important to pick up on that if there is a preconceived idea about something that's going on in the case that could potentially be hurtful, even if they look great on paper. So I love those examples, successes, some stories, some like give us some like give us a scoop of ice cream, a little hot fudge, maybe a couple of peanuts if we don't have allergies or sprinkles, if we do, you know. Just something to let us know some positive stuff. I'd love to hear that.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Sure, there has been many cases I've worked with and parents. They will report back that when they have shifted how they see their situation and they've been able to communicate with their child in an attachment language, so to speak, and able to attune to their feelings and needs and understand what's going on and not be upset at the child because they sound like their co -parent every time they talk. When those things take place and we can really isolate the parent-child relationship, then I've seen so many cases where the kids just soften. I've watched kids go from I don't want to ever see this parent again to now they have 50-50, or at least they have like a couple of nights every other week. It's been beautiful and I've watched people even go through struggles where it didn't work the first time out.

Speaker 1: 25:19

But the reason why I said about the mid-20s 23 to 25, is because brain development ends about 23 to 25. And that's when kids will come back around. So if you keep being positive, watch many cases and I've heard back these kids came around and said I don't even remember why I was upset at you and the relationship restarted as if it never had been interrupted for like a 10 year period of time. So that's why I say keep going, cause you never know and I've seen these cases time and time again and like just seeing the kids with tears in their eyes, even though they're they're stubborn and they don't want to say anything right, they're because they're used to being so angry it catches them off guard in a really good way. They don't trust it at first, but if you're consistent and keep approaching things that way, it makes a huge difference and I've just seen some relationships go back to blossoming the way they should have before the rejection and the estrangement happened. If that helps.

Speaker 2: 26:15

That is beautiful, and I want to thank you for taking the time to come out and sharing some of your experience and expertise with the community, letting us know about your newsletter, which I think will be phenomenal for folks, and that there is an option for a free consultation if folks are looking for someone to work with. And, yeah, I appreciate the work that you're doing, I appreciate that you're centering the kids and that you're out there in the system affecting change, and that you yeah, that you are you. It's really comforting for me as I struggle along this path and bump into walls, and with folks also that are walking in the same direction, feels really useful.

Speaker 1: 26:51

Thank you for having me, Lawrence. This has been great. I love the conversation. It's my favorite topic.

Speaker 2: 26:56

Wow, wow, wow. What a great interview and how gracious it was for Kathy to jump on the show and I love that she has a free 15 minute consultation that might be useful to someone out there. I feel like that is very generous and not something we see very often. Everything seems to be automated and you never get to talk to a qualified human being. I also found it fascinating when Kathy was talking about foster care system and I can't remember the exact words she used about the person that sits in court that kind of assists the judge and the attorneys and the other stakeholders on what's really needed and what's really going on with the kids. That can lead to some healing and some families getting back together. I love that and that gives me so much hope that there is a possibility and a way forward in this really troubled system, in this really troubled, troubled family court system, because it's heartbreaking what's going on and we need more folks letting us know about other systems that are currently functioning, that have pieces that would be really useful to our system and, as we're learning this, we need to find out a way to get our feet on the ground and ask for these things to be included in the court system. Yeah, I know I'm going sideways here a little bit, but yeah, how do we really advocate and get these changes made as a population of people that are struggling, and not wait for other people to do that for us? So I'm going to say that's a really big and deep thought and a little sideways thought, and sorry if that feels a little different.

Speaker 2: 28:26

Anyway, great show, great chat, wonderful information. All Kathy's information is in the show notes. Please like subscribe, comment. Let us know what you're thinking. Familydisappeared at gmailcom is in the show notes. Send us an email, ask for a particular topic. If there's something we skirted over you'd like us to discuss a little bit deeper.

Speaker 2: 28:48

If there's anything else we can do to support the community, it'd be wonderful. And again, we're a 501c3 nonprofit. We need your donations. If you know an organization or something else it might be great for us to contact to help us fund some of the things we're doing, that'd be wonderful. If you know someone else that can help, that'd be wonderful too. And yeah, that is enough out of me.

Speaker 2: 29:10

I hope you're having a beautiful day, wherever you are and whatever you're doing, and we have a very special community and we're very lucky and we're really glad to have you as part of this journey. And in case anyone hasn't told you yet today I love you. Yeah, and I'm saying that after every show, depending which shows you're listening to, but yeah, people said that to me often when I was new in different communities and really struggling. It was really nice to hear that someone loved me. Even I thought that that's a bunch of crap. You don't even know me, but I think there's. There's hope and creativity and, uh, opportunity and love. So I love you. Have a beautiful day. We'll see you around the neighborhood. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of family disappeared podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.