Searching for Answers: Delving into 'Mondays Not Coming'| BLK Girl Reads Book Club Podcast Ep. 6

In this thought-provoking episode, we immerse ourselves in the gripping world of "Mondays Not Coming" by Tiffany D. Jackson. Join us as we journey through the pages of this powerful novel, uncovering its haunting mysteries and poignant themes.

As we follow the compelling story of Claudia, we'll delve into the heart-wrenching exploration of friendship, disappearance, and the passage of time. From the first page to the last, we'll be captivated by the author's evocative storytelling and the emotional impact of the narrative.

Join our vibrant book club discussion as we share our thoughts, feelings, and theories about "Mondays Not Coming." Whether you've already read the book or are curious about its impact, this episode promises a heartfelt exploration of the human experience and the bonds that connect us all.

Transcript

Jann: 0:01

Monday, Charles is missing and only Claudia seems to notice. Claudia and Monday have always been inseparable. We're like sisters and friends. So when Monday doesn't turn up for the first day of school, Claudia's worried When she doesn't show for the second day of school or the second week, Claudia knows something is wrong. Monday wouldn't just leave her to endure tests and bullies alone, not after last year's rumors and not with her grades on the line. Now Claudia needs her best and only friend more than ever. But Monday's mother refuses to give Claudia a straight answer. And Monday's sister April is even less help. As Claudia digs deeper into her friend's disappearance, she discovers that no one seems to remember the last time they saw Monday. How can a teenage girl just van without anyone noticing that she's gone? All right, welcome back to the podcast everyone. Um, so I'm here, your host, Jan.

Joi: 0:57

And I'm her joy.

Jas: 1:00

And I am Jasmine. I'm visiting.

Jann: 1:05

all right, so we're all here to discuss the book. Monday's not coming by. Tiffany D. Jackson. So we'll start off as normal with ratings. So who wants to go first?

Jas: 1:18

And so what's the rating range again?

Joi: 1:20

one through

Jann: 1:21

do, yep.

Jas: 1:23

Okay,

Jann: 1:24

One out of five.

Jas: 1:26

And we're basing this, wait, one more thing. Rating is based on the genre of novel, right? That it is, which is a mystery or just in

Joi: 1:35

what you thought overall of it. Yeah.

Jann: 1:37

Yeah, that's what I normally do. Like I, you know, it's like ba like on, based on other mysteries, since this is a mystery, um, how do I think it, um, holds up and just how much you enjoyed it. Yeah, it's just overall rating.

Jas: 1:52

Okay.

Jann: 1:54

All right, joy, give us your rating,

Joi: 1:56

A five. like it a lot. And I got the book there because I liked it so much.

Jann: 2:04

Okay. You wanna show us the book?

Joi: 2:07

It's on the

Jas: 2:07

No, we can't.

Joi: 2:08

It's part of the background.

Jann: 2:10

Okay. All right. Jazz, what would you rate it?

Jas: 2:16

I have read a lot of mystery novels and I'm a big fan of this genre, and for this one I'm giving it a two, two out of five.

Jann: 2:26

Wow.

Joi: 2:27

wow,

Jas: 2:28

Yeah. I'll get into my reasons.

Joi: 2:31

wow.

Jann: 2:33

Okay. Okay, so

Joi: 2:35

this how you guys felt about me doing wedding date? Giving it a one? This is how it felt. All right. Go ahead. Sorry.

Jann: 2:44

It is interesting that you say that because I don't read a ton of mystery novels. Um, and I feel like when you know more about a genre, you tend to rate it more harshly. Um, but as far as this book, I couldn't give it anything other than a five. Like, um, and I know I'm coming off of rating Crescendo, which I hated, so that could be something to do with it. Like, literally as soon as I finished that book, um, I turned this one on and I just did not stop listening to it until it was done, so I couldn't rate it anything other than a five.

Joi: 3:17

listened to it in one day. I never turned it off.

Jas: 3:22

I am.

Jann: 3:24

All right. So with that we're gonna start getting into some spoilers. So I just wanna give a quick spoiler alert for anyone who has not read it and does not want it to be spoiled, which I wouldn't suggest, um, getting this one spoiled for you because there are some plot twists that come up, um, yeah. That you might wanna be surprised for. So if you haven't read it, log off, come back after you've read it. I'll give you a second. Okay. You should be gone. So

Joi: 3:52

Get outta here, losers.

Jann: 3:56

joy, you wanna give us a quick recap of the book? Look.

Joi: 4:00

All right. Quick recap. Basically we have Claudia and we have Monday besties. Um, Claudia has her mom and her dad that she lives with, and she has, um, you have Monday who has an older sister, April, a younger brother Tuesday, a younger brother August, and a younger sister Tuesday. and basically like Claudia and Monday are super best friends ever since they were young. They used to go trick-or-treating together. although the moms don't really get along, like they're kind of like friends because their kids are friends, you know? Um, But Claudia's mom doesn't really like her because it said that like, maybe there's drugs going in and out the house, or it is just an unsafe environment, pretty much, you know? So Claudia isn't even allowed to go over there without an adult present. Um, one day, Monday start is missing after Claudia comes back from summer break and she's looking for her everywhere and she just never turns up. And the thing about it is that no matter who she is, like she can't get a straight answer from anyone, you know? Um, and eventually it comes out that, you know, it's another one of those books that go back and forth, back and forth. But I think the way that it's done here, it makes a bit more sense other than like, you know, other than, um, crescendo when it was like just confusing. This makes a little bit more sense when you're like, thinking about it, you know what I mean? Um, so it turns out, um, Monday, Is killed by her mom as well as August is killed by the mom. Um, and they're found later, but it just comes down to August and Monday's been missing and no one's even noticed because they're black kids pretty much. And the system fails'em. So that's what it is. And turns out that Claudia is like, has P T S D, I think it was about it. So she forgets this is the third time she forgot that Monday went missing. So she's actually in the book. I think she's depicted as being 14, but she's actually 16 going on 17 and she's has these episodes and forgets that Monday went missing. So yeah, that's pretty much the book Guinea middle end.

Jann: 6:17

Yeah. Um, so before we actually start getting into questions, just how do you guys feel reading the book? Like

Joi: 6:25

It made me cry. I hate it.

Jann: 6:28

cried too during this one. I.

Joi: 6:30

Yeah. Jasmine with her stone cold heart.

Jas: 6:34

I was, I was frustrated for majority of the book and distressed because like my, I feel like, um, there's a lot of things now that, um, hit different as a parent. So it was very difficult for me to listen to this. Um, just thinking about my own kid. And reading this book. So that's another part of it. Um, I, I will say that the writing was beautiful. I thought it was, it was excellent. And there was a part of me that kept thinking, I hope she's not dead. I felt like she was, but I hope, you know, something happened where she was just malnourished or whatever. And, um, I was just hoping that that wasn't the case. But, um, yeah, that's,

Jann: 7:20

It's something about that, you know, like when you say that, like I, I felt the same way. I kept hoping that she was okay, even though in the beginning she said like, She went missing and they found her a year later. Like when I heard that at first I was like, oh, they found her, like they found her body, but it was also like ambiguous enough that I was like, maybe they just meant that they found her and that she was not okay, but okay. You know? Um, and the only at that reminds me of the first time I read Weathering Heights. Um, have you guys ever read that book? I think at the beginning they talk about how it's not like there's no happy ending. There's not a romance, but the main character, has sort of a romance, like a on and off again romance. Um, and he's just a villain, straight up villain. But the whole time you're hoping that he's gonna redeem himself, even though they said at the beginning, that's not gonna happen. Like, you still hold out hope. That's how I felt with this book.

Joi: 8:16

I am, I I, I was hoping the whole time I thought she was dead too until they, so Claudia said they found her a year later and she had like marks, like scars all over her body. And I was like, okay, well maybe she was like, like you said, mild nerves or something. And then when she said, someone said, um, she kept taking out flowers in the attic and then someone picked out at her from the window when she came with her mom. And then, um, the, the baby Tuesday said that she always plays with her, but she always just stays in the closet for hide and seek. And I was like, please let this girl be alive in the closet for just like a year and a half. As horrible as it is. At least she's like alive, you know? Um, that wasn't the case. Yeah, it was super sad though.

Jann: 8:58

Yeah, it's very traumatic

Jas: 8:59

sad. Yeah.

Joi: 9:03

Yeah. Um, you wanna do characters.

Jann: 9:09

Um, sure. I know you really liked that question. Go ahead, joy. What's your least and favorite characters?

Joi: 9:18

Obviously the least is the mom. Um, Monday's

Jann: 9:22

Charles.

Joi: 9:23

Mm-hmm. She sucks. Um, and you know the thing about it too, like it was one of those things where people made excuses for her. Like, you know, she loved her kids this whole time and maybe it was the stress, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, but it's still fucked up what she did. and the way she was so cavalier at the end, and I think that's what really got me when she was like, yeah, I put her in the closet for like a few days or a few weeks or whatever. And whenever she asked for water, she was getting too loud. I was going there and kick her. That was awful. That like broke my heart when I heard that too. And I was like, that bitch, I wanna put her in a closet and kick her. That's horrible.

Jann: 9:58

I feel like this book, like it's very obvious who everyone's least favorite character is, and as far as your favorite, I feel like they're all like, so. Traumatized that it's unfair to kind of pick a favorite. So like for this book at least I'm like, I don't know if that's a relevant question. I mean, what do you guys feel like

Jas: 10:20

I

Joi: 10:20

say Miss. Mm-hmm.

Jas: 10:21

I don't, Mrs. Charles wasn't my least favorite character because like when you really break it down, I think that I. The, the, if we had to depict a character, it is the system like that's the worst character here is as far as like everyone is a victim. And it makes you wonder about who are the victims here? Literally everyone, including Mrs. Charles, they said that, well, one, why does she have this very, like all their reaction to a man hitting a woman? And she had this reaction with Monday when she went to the school and found out that she got into a fight with a boy, and then this is what she ended up killing her own son for. And to me, that comes from, she comes from a, a history of abuse. What type of abuse of relationship was she in? And, um, black women just statistically are more abused than any other group of women in the United States. So that's not a farfetched idea to think that, that she comes from abuse, and this is her coping with it, unfortunately in, in causing this pain on her own children. And if you think about it, doing harm to your children is probably the most self-hate that you can possibly do. Like this is someone that came from you and. You are hurt, hurting them and harming them. And then, you know, they even talked about how this was her snapping point the, the possibility of eviction. And even though like they probably lived there for a long period of time and they were just getting priced out of the area. So a lot of it just seems unfair and, I think it's a good view into how different some people's circumstances are. And, and people talk about, oh, there's no difference and there's equality when it comes to different, colors or whatever. And when you look at the economics like structure of a lot of these things, just her being physically where she is, being a black woman, being in proximity to other black people who are also suffering. It's like you only get more suffering. It's like, it's very difficult to break that cycle. So in, in, in this realm, I don't think she was the worst character here. I think she was also a victim of her, of circumstance. Like I feel the same way about her, that I felt about April. She was an adult. Yeah, but I mean, she had four kids that she was raising by herself.

Jann: 12:42

she? She was 17.

Jas: 12:46

No, I'm talking Mrs. Charles, that's you. I was saying you were, you didn't, you didn't blame April for what she did to Monday. But I feel like there's no difference between her and Mrs. Charles. Except for Mrs. Charles as an adult. And they're both like results of the same system that wants them to destroy themselves.

Joi: 13:06

That's true. I mean, I feel like the exact same family and like give them money, give them an affluent neighborhood, give them at least what Claudia and her family had, and I don't think it would've happened honestly. Just needs to have a little bit better to avoid a lot of tragedy, and that's really sad

Jas: 13:22

And what's interesting too is like Mrs. Was, she had a values system, Mrs. Charles. Like she came in there ready to fight. It almost seemed like she's ready to fight the kid. She was ready to fend her daughter in this situation. And this was something that set her off like, no, I'm not gonna let this happen. Where there's another little boy who thinks it's okay to hit women. So, you know, as bad as she was, she did have a value system that as little as we've heard of her or heard her talk, that they were able to develop that character for her that well.

Joi: 13:58

Do you think if she had like the help, like the therapy that she needed to obviously get over the trauma, like do you think that this would still happen? Like even though she was still stressed out, even though the whole thing about gentrifying the neighborhood and them getting kicked out, like there's some people who are in the same circumstances that still wouldn't harm their kids like that. You know, it's kids above everything. That's why I work three or four jobs just to make it through, and I just don't see people even in the most horrible situations, putting their kids in the freezer at the end of the day. You know what I

Jas: 14:28

true. We don't know how crazy she was. And the thing is, like we've heard different stories about Mrs. Charles, like when April talked about how she had to convince her mom to take classes, she went, she could've just let them be in the system, but she cared enough about her kids to go through a bunch of classes and get them out of, the foster care system. So either she had some redeeming qualities about her, or she was a different person earlier on. Years in this story, But yeah, I, I, I feel like you, you, you can say that all day. Like, well, I don't think I would do this in this situation. I think a lot of people say that, but if you've never had that pow on of all the different things that can work against you, you really don't know what you would do in that situation. And I think that's something that we take for granted because we don't realize how many things have had to go right for us in order to end up where we are. Right? You have to think about the people around you who did you a favor, someone who's looking out for you that didn't have to look out for you. someone having a good day and saying, you know, I'm gonna give her this better grade because I know she's been working hard. Or someone who just sees you. They see that you're working to do something with yourself. And unfortunately, all of those things, Work in the opposite. For some people, and I, I say this as a black woman because I feel like we're in great proximity to that a lot. If it's not happening directly to us, I see it specifically with black men. Like when I went to school, there was always one black boy that all the teachers despise. He would probably be a jokester or something, but like they, he never got a chance. They always like assumed the worst. And there was definitely opportunities where he didn't do anything wrong, but he was the blame because that's just his, that's what he's been typecast as. And he's a child.

Jann: 16:21

that point. Yeah.

Jas: 16:23

He's a child. And that for that person, how do they ever get out of that? How do you ever get to a point where I want to focus on academics, I want to do better. I want to not be in this, this mold that I have been made in when your brain is still developing, you know? So, um, yeah.

Jann: 16:41

you learn from such an early age that the system is going to fail you and not help you. And like you need to avoid them as much as possible in order to be okay. Yeah.

Jas: 16:51

Absolutely.

Jann: 16:51

I just wanna circle back really quick to your question, joy too, about like, if she got therapy, would it have ended up the same? and I would say it's, it is very hard to say. I feel like had she gone to therapy, she could have been better, but if she had not been like, what are the systems in place? For her kids to be okay. Like I feel like the therapist should reach out and tell, c p s, Hey, I'm worried for these kids. But c p s was notified multiple times and that still didn't help. So would it happen better? It's still very hard to say. and I feel like that's a huge theme in this book is just the systems in place like failing these kids and the people. Jasmine, to your point, Mrs. Charles too was failed quite a bit. but let's just think really quickly. Like they had the school system who did not report that Monday didn't show up. they had the police, she went to go see and he pretty much blew her off and said, you're wasting my time. Look at all these real problems that I have. And obviously the c p s who like is a system specifically for this, they were supposed to be doing visits and the house was unlivable. Like had, they done one check like they were supposed to be, They probably all would've been pulled out and could've avoided all this. Like the kids were smelling like urine. a lot of the time. I know they said August and Tuesday had that issue, and even Monday at one point came to school smelling like urine. yeah, there, there were just so many systems in place and not to mention the gentrification that was happening, that Jasmine, as you pointed out, could have been her snapping point. And that's how I interpreted it. just because of the way that she reacted to that person, being in an abusive relationship. I didn't consider it like that. She did have a thing about abuse in that way, so that could have been a part of her past. But, I saw it as that's when she was, well, you know, like, and she was an advocate for speaking up for people who are in an abusive system because they can't speak up for themselves. and then I felt like she like slowly dissented into this like, Hysteria, I guess is the best word to or best way that I can think to describe it right now. Or like insanity where she is actually the abuser, and probably not lucid enough to really realize what she's doing. so yeah. Out of all those systems, how, which one infuriated you the most? Because across the board, like I was mad the whole time, like, I cannot believe that not one system in place has helped this girl. and I can believe it, which is sad, but still

Joi: 19:25

I think the thing that got me the most was, um, Ms. Valenti, she was my favorite character by the way. She, went out of her way for these ex that these students that she used to have. They're like, yeah, I remember her. Like, of course, what do you mean she's not in school? You know, she was a good student. She not only reported it to c p s and the police and went over there twice, way more than what a teacher is. Contracted to do, with me being in these classes, for teaching elementary students. It's a, what is it called? Mandatory reporter. So when Monday went to school smelling like pee, she looked like she was traumatized over the weekend when she got after that fight or whatever, everyone should be reporting that shit to c p s and just from the amount of people reporting it, the C P Ss should have went over there and we get this, um, you get this a lot. I've, I've looked into a lot of, different cases just from curiosity's sake and I hate that I have to do it. But, I remember, Gabriel Fernandez, that case, on Netflix, that one still haunts me to this day. Every once in a while I get real sad thinking about it because there

Jann: 20:29

I refuse to watch

Joi: 20:30

looking out for him. Yeah, it's horrible. It's, it's just a horrible case. And it's literally this story pretty much, and it's sad. And the system filled him too. The teachers, even though, um, there was one that was almost like Ms. Ante, and she was like, stay here longer, you can stay here with me. You know, just trying to look out for him. And the system literally just like pushed them to the, to the side, you know? And you get these cases where you have people like, you know, we're in a happy home, we're in a loving home, but C P Ss took my kids, or they're harassing us. And that's what really makes me upset too, because you'll have c p s looking into the wrong cases, you know, and, and going after families that don't need the help. Like they're being weaponized half the time. I don't look into the cases that need it. So I think that when it comes to c P s, I can't even understand what the detective, like, look, I got a wall of missing girls. I'm trying to find them too. Unless you can actually report something for me. Like he could have went over there for like at least a wellness check, you know, especially after

Jann: 21:34

feel like even, like, not even just the wellness check, the way he was condescending to her, you know, after she said like, he's, she's not missing like that. Like he could have said, what do you mean? Like what? Like can you explain a little bit more? These are some things to look out for and if you see this come back, but you know, you need that. Like, but what he did was say, do you see these are real cases, these are missing girls really look at this wall. This is what I should be spending my time on. Like you are pretty much wasting my time, is what he said to her. So,

Joi: 22:05

And when he say you need a parent to, to report, I like that doesn't make any sense. Anyone can report a kid missing.'cause Well, if the parents killed him. Like in this case, you know? So it, it didn't make sense to me what he said. And then, I think it was really interesting to see it all from Claudia's point of view, because she's a kid going through this,

Jas: 22:25

That was my, that was my thought too.

Joi: 22:27

yeah, as an adult, it's hard enough to get someone to take it seriously, but as a kid it's even worse.'cause you have to convince the adults to take you seriously.

Jas: 22:36

That's a system that I thought failed the most, the parent adult relationship. And I think this is a very American thing that like you don't listen to your kids, kids don't talk to adults like, and Claudia even mentioned that a few times, like being in adult's business or talking to adult, talking to adults, like she's one of them. And I've always thought that was the stupidest thing because it's like you have to interact with adults. And I know children are not adults, but I feel like they don't get respect. That they deserve in regard to like bodily autonomy or just being listened to or just, just anything. And it's a frustrating experience to go through that and not have someone listen to you when this is, it is important. It's important to you because as your best friend, but also this could be someone's life. And then there was another theme going on about like, well, you don't wanna mine other people's relationships. You don't wanna get in other family's business. That's their business. You don't wanna deal with that. And I know one of the conversations that Mrs. Was it Mrs. Charles was having with Claudia's mom about like, what are we gonna do if something, if he kills her? Like we have to do something about it. And I couldn't believe that Claudia's mom was taking this very passive approach to this like that. That definitely surprised me. But I, to your point, Jan, I think that was a develop a character development moment for Mrs. Charles because. She was speaking the truth, like, yeah, like you wanna say something, if you notice something is going wrong in someone's family, which is a huge coincidence that someone needed to do that for her family because there was abuse happening there. But, um, yeah, I, I, systems, I felt the most, I say it was parents not listening to kids. And I, I think that's something that should be revalued and people should listen to kids more. So what they're saying and what, what's real to

Jann: 24:32

that whole dynamic too. Like I completely agree with everything you're saying, but even like within that family, like I feel like it's something to be said about like the relationship with, the mom and the father as well. Claudia's mom and dad, like the mom seemed to like after time, like try to take it more seriously. and the dad kept saying you both need to drop this. Or I don't wanna get involved. And like his word was final. And I feel like that's also bullshit that you see in like a lot of relationships where the man's word is final and like you don't really talk things out. Like the only time she won an argument is when she snapped at'em, and that was just to get a phone number. So I feel like that's also something that was hindering them. And I know you said American families jazz. I feel like it's African American families in particular, or like just minority families. I guess it would be the thing where like you're not meant to speak back to your parents or like if you say something at the wrong time when adults were talking, then you were in trouble. And yeah, that, that's definitely like a recurring theme. Mm-hmm.

Joi: 25:40

not to mention too, that age gap between the parents kind of creeped me out too when he

Jann: 25:46

was the age gap?

Joi: 25:47

When Claudia said that her parents, they got married when Claudia's mom was 18 and the dad was 29. That's like me marrying an 18 year old.

Jas: 25:57

Yeah. They're a decade apart. They're a decade apart. Yeah.

Joi: 26:02

Not to mention like, not just a decade. It is different when you're 30 and 40, I think anyway, than 18 and 29. I was like, that's weird, you know?'cause not only did you get married, you had to be dating when she was a teenager, like young.

Jann: 26:17

he got married, they were six. They got married six months after they started dating, so she could have been 18, but that's still ridiculous. So.

Joi: 26:27

Yeah. So maybe like that whole, like my word is final two, like that age difference came into play. And that's also probably why, Claudia's mom was like, Hmm, maybe we should check in.'cause she was like, maybe it's just like, you know, could see it from a different perspective than the dad would. And because the, like, you know, they both work. Um, The dad wasn't there all the time. He was a trucker, so he probably was just like, listen, I'm tired when I'm home. I wanna sleep, I wanna eat, and that's it. You know, I don't wanna hear about the bullshit going on in the neighborhood, you know, when it could just easily be like girls falling out, you know? So,

Jas: 27:04

Which is also a dismissive approach.

Joi: 27:06

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 27:07

Yes,

Jas: 27:07

the, like would you have the same reaction if your daughter was a son? Right? Like

Jann: 27:12

exactly. Probably would've got a lot more respect.

Joi: 27:16

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 27:17

as far as like a friendship. Well, I believe him. I believe that if he's saying that this wouldn't happen and they're friends, like maybe we should look into it. So yeah, there was something going on there too. I think the other part that makes it difficult for Claudia is that she has trouble with communicating and she's super self-conscious about her intelligence and, even the way she talked to the police officer, like she wasn't very clear as far as what she was talking about. And, um, instead of showing her patience, because you obviously notice like there's something, there's something know with this girl, she's not a good communicator, right? And she, if she's not a good communicator and she's coming into the police station, it has to be something that's serious for her because a person that's not a good communicator would not put themselves in this situation where it's. Obviously intimidating, so the response shouldn't be to intimidate them more. So I think just having a little bit of empathy to the situation and just under, and not even empathy, emotional intelligence enough to know that this is a person that must be in distress because she's coming in here without a parent and she does not communicate well, and she's asking for help for her friend. So that enough would've been enough. Like you would treat anyone who's in distress and coming in and saying, Hey, I'm having a hard time. I need you to check on this person. I, I don't know what happened to them, they're missing. So yeah, just the dismissiveness in, in general, was frustrating. And honestly, I remember, I remember being that age and feeling like you're not getting, no one is listening to you. Absolutely no one. You can talk to your teachers and they're dismissive. You can talk to your parents. They're dismissive. You can talk to your aunts and uncles. No one's really listening to anything you're saying. You know, like what, you know, they say, oh, you're little problems. You're little girl problems. And, you know, it's not that big of a deal. And I just don't, yeah. It was just a reminder like, don't be like this with kids. Like what they have to say matters. Um, and what they have to contribute is important to them. This is their entire world. They don't know anything else, you know? And like, Even if her

Joi: 29:33

little people.

Jas: 29:35

Exactly. Even if her friend was just sick, like that's a, that's traumatizing enough that I only have one friend and then they're not there. I also didn't like how her parents were when it came to her only having one friend. Her reaction, her mom's reaction to that, she's like, this is my only friend that I have, mom. She's like, no, you have friends and like she just told you she don't have friends. Like, don't you listen to just listen to her?

Jann: 29:58

Crying. Yeah.

Jas: 29:59

Yeah. I was so frustrated by that. Yeah. So yeah, there's just a lot of things like that that frustrated me.

Joi: 30:07

The whole damn thing was frustrating, honestly. I think with our generation too, with, raising kids, we see kids as humans. We see kids as like, you know, when people used to say like, I'm mean to my kids, pretty much, because the world's gonna be mean. I see so much more now when people are like, well, why would you also wanna be mean? Don't you wanna be the safe place when they come home to and talk to you about these kind of things? Um, it was another thing. So I know that Monday had a journal that she used to write in and people, um, on TikTok especially now are talking about like, how just please don't read your kids' journals. Don't do that. Like if they trust you, what you should have, like have their trust anyway with them growing up with you, they will tell you something major is happening.'cause a lot of the excuses, like, you know, something's major happening, I want to know what's happening in their lives. You know, but that's a relationship that you should be, you know, fostering since they were born. That they can trust you, something is going on. Um, I don't know, it's just this whole just makes you like, kind of think like what you wanna do as a parent and do better for your kids, you know?

Jann: 31:15

Funny that you should say that.'cause you just said like, don't read your kid's journal. I was like, no, why would I do that? And then I started thinking like, well if my kids started being a little shady though, like there's not much I wouldn't do to try to figure out what's going on. Um, so I don't know. I feel like I might cross that boundary if I had to. Like I read their journal.

Jas: 31:35

That's so funny you say that Joy, because I, I was just talking to Chris about this yesterday. Like I feel like there's a lot of things I experienced in childhood that made me who I am today and it, it helped me develop grit. And when I think about what I do those same things to my son, hell no. No, absolutely not. I would never, and I think that there's a lot of, there, everyone needs a point in life where they need to know to push through hardship. You need to know to push and you need to know like even though it hurts, even though it sucks, like you still have to work a little bit harder to get to the finish line. And for a lot of parents, I think in our generation, That was corporal punishment. That was, you have to do this thing. That's horrible. and that's it. And that was pretty much, I don't feel like there were a whole lot of positive experiences I had with learning grit growing up. And when I think about times where I did learn grit, where I, I enjoyed it was like running track or doing karate, like doing things like that. But never like with doing chores, you know, we weren't rewarded for cleaning the house or, you know, I don't know, doing anything that we needed to do. There was nothing on the other side of that that made it enjoyable for me to make me want to internalize doing work. And that's a problem because you don't even, you don't even put that together. And on top of that, you're, you are ruining your relationship with your child because now they look at you like you're the disciplinarian. Why would I go to the disciplinarian and tell'em my secrets?

Joi: 33:05

Exactly. Yeah.

Jas: 33:07

I wouldn't do that. It makes no

Joi: 33:08

honest. You can't be honest with them because it's like, well, obviously I was out doing something I wasn't supposed to do, but you know, if I tell'em about this or something that happened while I was doing that, I'm getting in trouble anyway. And I feel like, um, the communication needs to be there from when they're very young and just show them, like it's, no one's gonna beat you if you do something wrong. And as an adult, you know, it's gonna be an equal punishment to go with the, you know, the, um, whatever. But you never want'em to be like, I can't talk to my parents because it's gonna turn to a lecture or, or they're gonna hit me. You know? So

Jas: 33:42

Or it puts them in a dangerous situation. Like Claudia went to a murderer's house and was there with her parents not knowing where she was. If they had an open communication, if they had listened to her, she would've never been over there by herself. She, it would've never happened.

Jann: 34:02

That's, that's definitely a good point. not only like could they hit me or give me a lecture, like just the thought of being dismissed and not taken seriously too is enough to like not go to your parent for something. So it doesn't even have to be on the extreme. Just if I feel like I'm not going to be taken seriously, then I might skip it.

Joi: 34:19

Or then when, um, when you said that she went to her house, eventually the mom went with her, but it was after she cried to her. You know, it had to come outta Claudia, and then the mom still had to be like, well, I want you to join this church group, or whatever. You know, it was like this and this. It's just like, no, I wanna do this for you. I wanna support you and looking for your best friend, obviously, you know, go over there and check it out,

Jann: 34:42

I hated that she made her join the group, but that was less sinister to me than when the dad said that she can't talk about Monday anymore until her grades are up. After knowing that she had a learning disability like this,

Joi: 34:54

Yeah.

Jas: 34:55

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 34:55

why would you ever say you have to come overcome this disability before I care about your friend? Like that was just off on me.

Jas: 35:04

that was interesting too. I don't think they understood the disability and they were just so like upset about it. And I hate that. I hate that. That's parents' reactions to learning that their, your kid is struggling because now Claudia feels like she's in trouble. Right. And it's something that's out of her control to fix

Joi: 35:22

she feels stupid. She said she went to the stupid kids class, but that's on the teachers too. They didn't give them any kind of pamphlets, any kind of information for dyslexia. They had this whole meeting when they could have had this paperwork for her and just like, oh, look at this. It's different from when Monday was around who was doing her work. It turned into a very aggressive, very accusatory meeting. Instead of going like, Hey, look, here's the paperwork. Here's what we can do. It's not impossible to overcome. So that's on the teachers as well. Like here's some info for the parents, you know?

Jann: 35:51

Yeah, I don't understand why Claudia was even in that meeting, to be honest with you.

Joi: 35:57

Me either.

Jann: 35:59

I'm not saying don't involve her, but I feel like definitely talk to the parents, get them to understand the situation before you bring Claudia in so that it's not like traumatizing the way that it was. it that's just this whole thing on itself. Like the sy the school system feeling Claudia with her dyslexia and not explaining to them,, I feel like with all schools, like some of these common, like learning disabilities should be common knowledge. Have assemblies on it. Like, Hey, if you're having this issue, you might not be alone. come to this place for help, you know?

Joi: 36:34

okay, so this goes into my teaching, um, two that I've learned. This is a whole new thing. So they've been doing this, do it that way for a while. Now there's different tests that you can kind of like do on the side. Like you send home letters to parents, like, Hey, we're gonna test your kid on this day about this certain'cause We're concerned about learning about, like the reading or the writing or the math. Literally anything you can say, Hey, we're gonna test them on this. the kids probably won't even know. We might just put it as like, you know, just another standardized test for them. So they won't think that they have to do like super well or study or something like that. We just wanna see where they're at and how we can help. And even then there's, there's layers. You won't automatically have to go to a learning. Um, A special learning class. They have kids go in and out so that there's different ways for them to teach, learn with students their age with a little bit more, ability.'cause also shows they can learn well with their classmates, but then also take'em to the side to make sure that they're keeping up so they're not just struggling all day in that class. So there's different layers to doing it, but that's all pretty new, like I'm thinking like last six or seven years, so,

Jas: 37:43

Wow. And it makes sense to do it that way.

Joi: 37:46

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 37:48

So, circling back really quick, um, jazz, you felt like the parent-child relationship was, the most filled, like awful system, or the biggest breakdown of communication If you were Claudia's parents, at what point would you have gotten involved, like more involved in finding Monday?

Jas: 38:08

Um, I think the second time I. That Claudia came to me and said,'cause I know the first time she's like, oh, well maybe she's sick. You know how she was sick before the second time she came to me and said that she still wasn't there.'cause by the time she came to her the second time and she saw that she was looking for a phone call and stuff, and she hadn't heard from her all summer, I would've done something. I would've asked her around like, well, when's the last? She didn't even ask her any questions either. Like, well, when's the last time you talked to her? Huh? And that I would've brought it up at that point too, like, yeah, she reached out to me before and when I learned that the mom knew something was up and then a household, and then the first time, the first time Claudia told her that she didn't come to school. That is when I'm like you, this is on your hands too, because you knew something. Well, you alerted C P Ss and your daughter's telling you she hadn't heard from her all summer and she didn't show up to school. I would've been at that door the first day, that very first day when she told me she wasn't there. So yeah, I think they just didn't wanna deal with it. I think she was still living in that whole mentality, like, I know something bad happened and I don't wanna have to deal with that because then my daughter's gonna be worrying or having to go through the trauma. I think they were putting off the trauma, honestly. I knew they knew something bad happened, whether she had ended up in the system or she had been hurt or she had to go live somewhere else, they just didn't, they would have rather her hang out with other people than have to deal with the drama of it, even though she was already suffering.

Jann: 39:41

Joy. You might know more about this from, you know, your studying with being a teacher, but what I didn't understand is she said that she lied, like she admitted that she lied to Claudia because she thought that c p s may have come and taken her out of the household. Can't you call if you were made a like report like that and follow up to see if that were the case?

Joi: 40:02

Yep. Or even, I think that what really sucks too about this is that the mom has some sort of relationship with Mrs. Charles. So she could've easily gone like, you know, Claudia is in Atlanta for the summer, but let me go check on the baby. Lemme go see like, you know, how the mom is doing. See where her head is at after seeing that kind of like reaction to the daughter coming out of the car. Anytime during that summer and the way that I'm set up, I'll be like, yeah, lemme just go see them all. Like, let's make some excuse to go see how they're doing. And at the very least, if, if. Claudia came home and said, Hey, I never, I haven't talked to, um, Monday all summer. You know, this isn't like the 1950s. I'm like, what the fuck you mean Ever talk to her all summer? And I feel like, okay, even if I came up with the idea like she was sick before, maybe she's sick again. Let's get a care basket. You know, let's get some suit, let's get some crackers and bring it over and go check and make sure everything's okay. And then as an adult you can be like, Hey, the house is fucked up. Where's the kids? You know, that's when you can take you and your daughter and go file a police report, at the very least.'cause she called c p s before and they didn't do anything. So it's just like there's different layers as an adult that she could have done, and it's unacceptable.

Jann: 41:11

And there's also, we like welfare checks. You

Joi: 41:15

yeah. Yeah.

Jann: 41:17

where they have to see the person. Like any of those things could have helped, like the tiniest bit of care. and you know, they had a question at the end of the book where it was like, who's ultimately responsible for people? are you responsible for your own safety and that's it, or is it your family or is it the community? I think that's a really good question. Anyone, even the neighbor said that she was su suspicious because she didn't hear her crying. first of all, that's awful that that's your indicator that something's wrong if someone's not crying. Um, but you could've did something like anyone at any point could have done something.

Jas: 41:52

Well, to me that was a sign that corporal punishment is still embedded in the black community and it needs to stop. And a lot of other neighbors said, they kept hearing about, oh, we always knew she was beating her kids, but we beat our kids. So we didn't think it was that big of a deal. So they didn't, you can't tell the difference between when someone is over the top or they're beating their children to death and just beating your kids in general. Like, it's hard. How do you get, when do you get involved when this is our culture to beat our children? I,

Joi: 42:24

I think that question at the end really made me realize, like, you know, I. Raising kids as a community is so much better than just as like a family, like a nuclear family because you have people looking in, or not only the kids, but you have people looking in on the parents. Parenting is hard, you know, people go like, you know, I need a fricking break, you know? Um, you know, please take these kids for just like a week. Maybe, you know, I need to have some time. Especially the fact that it happened over summer. And you see a lot of that too with child abuse cases where it goes over the top and kids die because they don't have that. Were pre for school from the parents. You know, the break for the parents really makes a big difference. That's why you see a lot of things that happened over covid. Things got real bad for kids in, in abusive situations, not including. Parents in abusive situations, you know, because they don't get that break during the day, you know? So, um, I think that raising children in a community that looks out for each other, I think that's when it really, um, is important. So, I know personally, I want to have a community when raising kids for the, for my own mental health and for the kids too. Like, if they can't talk to me or they feel like it's, you know, they, they don't want to get in trouble with me. Look, I don't know if they'll feel that way or not, but I want them to be able to talk to somebody in our community to make sure everyone's safe. And just like with other people's kids, I want them to be able to come to me so I can help'em as the adult, you know, in the situation. Not saying that, you know, everyone has the right advice, but at least it's something,

Jas: 43:56

one thing I will throw in there is like Claudia's mom to, while we're talking about her, because one more I'm thinking about it. She was probably my least favorite character. Um, they, one point someone called her like, your stuck up mom, April, you and your stuck up mom. Um, and when I think about, when I think back because the, we're seeing Claudia's mom through Claudia's eyes. Right. But when you start seeing her interactions with other people in the community, then you start seeing a different picture of what her mom is like. She's very involved in the church, she's very involved with her business, with like giving out food and things like that. But she definitely had this judgmental approach to everyone. Even when she was talking about, um, Monday's mom, like, she was like, my kid doesn't fight. And Monday's mom was telling her like, well, they were just doing what they needed to do. Like no little boy shouldn't have put their hands on them. And so I was, I was 100% what Monday's mom, on when they got into the fight compared to Claudia's mom and then her whole situation, like she was so warm and kind to Monday on an individual basis when, Claudia was sleeping. And to your point, joy, why wouldn't she? She knows Claudia, she knows Monday comes from this household. That's kind of messed up. She knows Claudia's outta. Like, you know, with her grandmother for the whole summer, why wouldn't she check in on Monday occasionally, especially if Monday went out of her way to come see her by herself without Claudia there, like she should have been checking in on her by herself over the summer. I feel like that she had a responsibility to do that, because she has a relationship with her. They have their own individual relationship Monday and Claudia's mom, and she felt her in that regard.

Joi: 45:40

there could have been a number of ways that Claudia's mom could have stepped in. You know? I feel like they're being so close since they were kids. That relationship is there too. It could have been like, Hey Mrs. Charles, you know I'm sending Claudia to Atlanta. I need a break from this kid. You wanna send Monday with her? You know, or even just like, Hey, you know, I was thinking about having a girl's day. What, what do you think about me bringing um, your girls to get their nails done with me and just spending the night, maybe, you know, it could've been anything throughout the summer, but for her to just, or even when she saw the reaction when Monday got out the car with the mom.'cause they were outside when she was yelling at her like that, like, you know what? Hey Monday, go pack a bag. Lemme talk to your mom. Maybe you can stay with me for a few days while she cools off. It's no way I would've had that kind of reaction, saw it and stood in the car and then drove away. I was like, let me diffuse the situation. Get the kid out of the situation. Get the mom who obviously I have a relationship with to cool down. Everyone's heated right now. Let me just diffuse. But she didn't do

Jann: 46:37

don't

Joi: 46:37

of

Jann: 46:38

why she didn't get out of the car too, and like, honestly, that could've been the one thing that would've saved her because didn't Mrs. Charles say that she thought she was getting out of the car with a boy?

Jas: 46:47

Yeah.

Jann: 46:48

her off. Had you just got out of the car and said, Hey, what's the problem? Or How can I help you? Could've that. That could've been it. Like, I mean, August at that point was already in the freezer, but you could've saved Monday in so many ways. There were so many times where you could've stepped in.

Joi: 47:05

And that's sad too. No one looked for August. Nobody, no questioned except for Claudia. No one looked for him. And that's even sadder. Like at least she had Claudia looking for Monday. No

Jas: 47:17

Claudia was looking for August.

Joi: 47:19

Well, yeah, was but that's

Jas: 47:21

too.

Joi: 47:21

Mm-hmm. But that's it. And it doesn't make any sense. Like, so we all know the c p s flat outlied, right? They said that the house was fine. They said the kids were in the house. They said that the kids were getting homeschooled. Who's going to pr? Like there was no kind of epilogue about the C P Ss getting looked into in that neighborhood. Nobody.

Jann: 47:41

And that's honestly like the biggest theme of this book is just the fact that like, um, and I saw an interview with Tiffany D. Jackson talking about this, um, where she said, and this is obviously like universal, um, here in the us like when white kids go missing, they're all over the news. When a black kid goes missing, like that whole wall was full of black girls and they kept dismissing it and saying, well, maybe they ran away. People run from their problems. Like, that's what the cop said. That made me so angry. Um, and unfortunately that is how it is in black communities. Like we, the systems don't really look out for us, um, at all. So this book was actually based off of a real case in Detroit where two siblings were being abused. The system felt them repeatedly and then they were unfortunately eventually found in a freezer. So completely awful. But it's not like someone can look at this book and say it's exaggerated, like this happens way too often.

Jas: 48:38

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 48:39

I, I wouldn't have even to known about that case to know that something extremely similar to this had to have happened because it's just, it's too easy at this point. If you're a bad actor in a community and you have kids around you, something like this is going to happen, especially when you have no kind of follow up. And that's where the community comes in. Again, you know, what if just, what if Claud, you know, Claudia didn't get out the car, not Claudia Claudia's mom didn't get out the car, but the neighbors also knew something was up with the babies.'cause they're like, you know, I would see Monday outside just looking at the stars and crying or whatever. And I would check in on like, if they checked in on her, anyone around them. Like they, they, the whole, the whole thing is just like, it's sad. It's completely sad. There were so many red flags. Um, another thing that I thought about too at the very beginning of the book was when Claudia was like, you know, I'm surprised Monday's not here. She's usually here two hours before anyone else, even the teachers. What do you mean a baby's outta school at 5:00 AM Why is no one looking into that? Where are you staying? You're like, you know what I mean? Why do you have to leave so early?

Jas: 49:42

Well, if you, I don't know if you remember, but we used to go to school earlier than when school was supposed to start, because a lot of times your parents go to work earlier than when you go to school and you, and you know, we get out earlier. I don't know why that's set up that way, but I don't think that's, that's weird. They have systems in place for kids who do get there a little bit early because that's when they can get there

Joi: 50:04

Well, I know that, but the way that it was said, I, I pictured her being there before the teachers were there for the early drop off. I remember early drop off, but I don't remember someone being there two hours earlier before the early drop off teachers get there. That's what I imagine. You know what I mean? So yeah, the whole situation kind sucks. Mm-hmm.

Jas: 50:27

It did suck.

Jann: 50:31

Yeah. All right. So what did you guys, uh, let's lighten it up a little. Hopefully. What did you guys think about Monday and Claudia's relationship?

Joi: 50:40

I thought that um, every time she was like, no, she don't have any friends. It's just us in our bubble. And I was like, Claudia,

Jann: 50:47

a little,

Joi: 50:49

so I'm a little toxic there. Um, I thought that was very interesting. So, um, but I don't know. It's one of those things where it's just like, you know, your kids, your best friends for life, you know, you don't want anyone else coming in, messing it up, especially when you're kind of outcasting your, in your school too. But, I think it was, um, interesting that the sister April could be like, well, no, her favorite color wasn't pink, it was purple like yours. But she felt like y'all kinda have the same stuff. Like I feel like Claudia was also, um, you know, just a kid. But it's just one of those things where it's just like, um,

Jann: 51:26

She is a preteen, like self-absorbed.

Joi: 51:29

yeah, yeah. Pretty much like everything was in her world, and everything in her world is what she knew, and that was the facts, you know, now Monday could have different relationships,

Jann: 51:39

Yeah, like people downplay teenage girls a lot and say they're like so selfish and self-absorbed and everything else and like to a point that's true. But she was also the only one looking for her. So I don't wanna hear anybody like talking crap about how like teenage girls are the worst because she was able to overcome that as a teenager and do what no one else could, which is be concerned about someone else. So,

Jas: 52:01

What's interesting is her dynamic, I feel like Claudia was very different from all the other kids in the book. She did not have a grasp on reality like everyone else did. And I think a good reason for that is'cause her parents sheltered her so much. Like they put on this whole facade like, well, she doesn't need to know about that, or We don't need to know. Even like Claudia's mom, I'm not telling her that she realized that there's something happening in um, In Monday's house. They never talked about it. Like, Hey, did Monday ever say anything to you about like, or have any weird bruises on her body or anything? Like she's never had that conversation with her because she's protecting her daughter from the horrible things in the world. And I think at one point, what's her one valet friend name? Meg.

Joi: 52:48

Megan? Yeah.

Jas: 52:49

She said, y'all need to stop babying her. And I'm like, whoa, who's babying her? And that was like the first inkling, like, does she know too? Does she know that this girl has been suffering for two years?

Joi: 53:01

I don't that she knew for two years. I think it's because she was actually 16 going on 17. Go like, Hey, let her take a drink or something. You know, like leave her alone.

Jann: 53:12

Yeah. And that's why when he said, when she said he's, she's not ready for this, I was with Claudia, what do you mean you're a year older than me? Get outta here. But he really meant like she's going through an episode right now or like when she said she turned around and April wasn't there. I thought April split. But I feel like she was hallucinating or like thinking about the past.

Joi: 53:32

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 53:33

wow. I didn't put that together.

Jann: 53:36

Or even when I thought that, okay, so as cool as Michael was when she followed her the first time, and Michael was like, shouldn't you be like yelling at April? And then he like cut himself off. I'm like, what is this? Is this sex trafficking? Does he know? Like what happened? But really he like cut himself off because it was probably the future and like he knew everything that happened and April was probably supposed to be doing something else, you know,

Joi: 54:03

I want to be like, I wanna go back and listen to it again, or at least read it with the actual book and like try to dissect which parts were when she was older and which was the first time it happened when she was gone, you

Jas: 54:17

Right, because Michael was, he said that Michael's been with her the entire time. So she started hanging out with Michael right the first time when Monday started missing, but she didn't start going to the ballet class until she was gone. So I kinda used that as my markers to tell what's from before and what happened after. So the party and the sleepover and stuff, that made sense. That was in the after, but I didn't understand her, her conversation she had with Jacob at the party, he was talking about like, oh yeah, when's the last time I saw Monday? It was this. And I, he said, I felt really guilty about this thing. And I, that's the part I was trying to figure out. Like did he, so he already knew she was gone when he was having this conversation with her and someone had to have told him that she doesn't know

Jann: 55:07

Well, he was there when she like had the first breakdown, remember like at the end when she finally remembered after school. So he probably knew and was trying to be more gentle because of that whole like thing. Like everyone was kind of playing along with her, including when they went to the library and she gave the book back and the librarian was like looking at it like it like, oh, what is this? I'm thinking like, what is your issue lady? But it was probably because she was like, how does she still have this book? You know?

Jas: 55:32

Oh

Jann: 55:34

And like when Michael came and was like, can we just do this? Like he said he was trying to get her to remember and the like, like Claudia's thinking, oh, he just knows everyone. Like is Michael's influence. But really they were all like, okay, we're gonna go through this again. Or every time she went up to April and she was like, are we still doing this? I'm like, Girl, where is your sister? But she had already known, like, that is so traumatizing for April too, to like, have to play along like this. Um, like yeah, I, I think the writing was great on that because after I, I wasn't expecting like memory problems. Like that's what we're gonna go with. But looking back at how she did it, it was actually really well done.

Jas: 56:17

It really was the writing. My favorite part of the writing is how she described people with colors. Like, that was amazing. I'm like, oh my goodness.

Jann: 56:28

it

Jas: 56:28

The red flag.

Jann: 56:29

that Monday was the color red. And that's why she couldn't see any red flags is because like she saw, like she was her everything, you know, like, and the red flags bled in with her color, um, because that's all she could see.

Jas: 56:44

I liked how she described,

Joi: 56:46

too, being like, sorry, the being, having like a, a learning disability, maybe it's just like she saw like, you know, thought of people as colors instead of like these different kind of personalities and

Jas: 56:55

well they said that with her being dyslexic, she did so well on her math test because it was on blue paper. So I, I think that made perfect sense. But she was so into colors because of her learning disability.

Joi: 57:07

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 57:09

And since we're talking about colors, guys, um, if you were a color, what color do you think you'd be?

Joi: 57:17

Wait, I think that we should say which color we think each other is and see if it matches with what we think it is,

Jann: 57:26

Okay.

Joi: 57:27

because it's like, Claudia was like, I think that you are this color. So Jan, I think that you're like a, like a, like a pink. And I think so. It's because like you're super loving and super cute, but then like when you get pissed off it, that pink can turn into a red and go like, get the hell out of there.

Jas: 57:51

It's, it's funny. Joyce said pink. I said I would think pink for Jen too. I'll say warm. And I think more like rose colored glasses. Like she's a nice, um, she's good at kind of. Helping people see a brighter side, um, in, in that regard. And then I, I agree like pink is a very, like, it's one of those colors that can shift from being magenta to rose color to this, and depending on whatever mood Jan is in what, whatever flamboyant pink she wants to be.

Joi: 58:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Jann: 58:29

very interesting.

Joi: 58:30

What do you see your color as?

Jann: 58:31

guys. So I would like to picture myself as a bl blue because I feel like I try to stay calm in a lot of situations, but in reality, I feel like I would be a yellow, um, and directly from the book, the way she described Mrs. Charles, even though I hate to think of myself, like relating to her at all, just being a certain color and happy and bright, but I'm just so affected by other people's moods and outside influences that it can get dirty very quickly and I have to like retreat and like try to calm myself and get back to my center and like my core color. Um, yeah. But I guess that could be said with any kind of bright ish color. But yeah, I was thinking definitely yellow.

Jas: 59:17

I love, that was my favorite, my favorite segment of the book when she described Mrs. Charles is, is yellow. I'm like, oh, I would've thought yellow for her. But then if she just described, I'm like, okay, yeah, this makes sense.

Jann: 59:28

Yeah.

Joi: 59:29

Yeah.'cause she seemed to be a good mom and the people in the community looked at her as a good mom

Jas: 59:34

Mm-hmm.

Joi: 59:34

that point, so, because they all even said, they're like, okay, maybe Monday went somewhere, but she's a good mom. She love on those kids all the time,

Jas: 59:42

Can I be honest, Mrs. Charles? I felt like I've met her. I feel like I know people like her. Just her, she's just a big personality. She's very outspoken. She's tough. I picture her being small even though she's not, even though she's just like this rough person. And, I don't know. Overall, like she probably has this gel center that is just, yeah, I dunno. But yeah, she seemed like a real person to me. I mean, I feel like everybody felt like a real person. No one felt like a trope except for Mr. Charles, which I'm like,

Joi: 1:00:20

Tip. Yeah. Yeah. Tip for typical,

Jas: 1:00:25

Typical, yeah. Like,

Joi: 1:00:28

uh, Jan, what do you think? Jasmine's color is

Jann: 1:00:34

Huh. I dunno, I feel like you would be like an orange because I

Joi: 1:00:38

Me too.

Jann: 1:00:39

Yeah. I feel like you're very similar to me. Um, like you're very bright and like you're very, but more intense and more dynamic and I don't feel like you get, like, you like lose your way. with outside influence, I feel like you're very like straightforward and intense and like, you like gain energy from certain things and like, even when you're like duller, it is not really dull. Like it's a bright orange. So. Yeah, that's how I would see you.

Joi: 1:01:06

You can never mistake it for a different color either. So like you don't get lost on the sauce or anything like that. Like you have a goal and this is the goal and this is what I'm doing. It's my goal. You know,

Jann: 1:01:16

Yeah.

Joi: 1:01:18

very orange and nothing rhymes with orange

Jann: 1:01:23

And nothing,

Joi: 1:01:23

to orange.

Jann: 1:01:24

that's a good point. Yeah,

Jas: 1:01:29

Oh, that's nice.

Joi: 1:01:31

do color is?

Jas: 1:01:32

I was thinking green for myself just because I like, um, I like the idea of just being, well, is Shep, is that blue your favorite color? Well, I was thinking, thinking green because like, I like to create, I like creating things. I like the idea of like something starting from scratch and moving up like a tree, like a root or grow it and um, doing it in a way that's not like over the top or not, not over the top, but like to the point where it's gonna stress me out, but something I enjoy enjoying it along the way. Uh, I think a agreeing of like walking through, um, a trail where I get to bathe in all the green and just get that energy. I think energy, yeah, I figured myself like energetic and, and getting that. And being able to share my energy with other people as well. That's why I think green.

Jann: 1:02:29

I like it.

Joi: 1:02:31

All right. Compliment me now.

Jas: 1:02:35

Jay.

Jann: 1:02:38

I think Joy's a gray. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Um, Joy, I feel like you would also be a yellow like me, because you are bright and bubbly, but more like a golden yellow. because I feel like, you also aren't like, as distracted by outside influences. Like it's a very, like, I'm like looking at this color here, like golden, like yellow, you know, like that's how I see you. and I feel like you can get bogged down pretty easily when you're overwhelmed, but it just turns into like a more golden color. Like it doesn't get muddied as much as a bright yellow wood. So gold, I guess more than yellow. Yeah.

Joi: 1:03:27

I

Jas: 1:03:27

I would say joy is like a baby blue color, light and airy, and wants to just enjoy it and be free and. Um, I don't know. That's what I think with

Jann: 1:03:41

I wanna change my answer. You're right. She's an air sign all, all day.

Jas: 1:03:46

Yeah. I think she's like, it's like a light blue, a light blue color. And then also I feel the same way, like I said about jam being pink, there's a lot of different colors. I feel like sometimes that airiness can kind of pack on and become more deep, like a deeper blue, and then that can lead to you not feeling as bubbly as you usually are. Just being a deeper, deeper color blue and kind of getting bogged down by that until you find your airiness again, and then you get light to that lighter blue. So that's what I would say.

Joi: 1:04:16

I like that.

Jann: 1:04:18

The thing about the gold color though, is I feel like she has definitely a stubborn streak. You know, and like in a good way, in a bad way, like I feel like you're very headstrong about things and like your opinion doesn't change very often, which is why I feel like your color wouldn't change as much. So like a light gold to like a darker gold is what I see. But to your point, jazz, like the airy air sign, like blue light blue is definitely a trait of joy as well.

Joi: 1:04:45

I can just feel like the aura just brightening. I always thought of myself as like a radiating yellow, and this is why I feel like I, instead of it being like more like for me, I feel like I like to give off energy, like the sun kind of, and try to like energize others and give that good like feeling to other people, you know what I mean? And the better that I feel, the more it radiates off of me and you know, helps the people around me to feel better as well. And that's probably why I've always been like a jokester. Always want to make people laugh because the better I feel, I feel like the more that they feel it comes back to me. It's like cyclical. So yeah, I try to put good things out there and I feel like the yellow, like the sun would be like kind of cool. And yellow looks really good on my skin tone.

Jas: 1:05:37

Yeah.

Jann: 1:05:38

right. I feel like that's a good, that's a good reasoning.

Joi: 1:05:42

Yeah.

Jas: 1:05:43

So one thing I wanted not to defer because I wanted to refer back to this. I think that was some of the best part of the writing. When she described the colors and describe it, that was the best way to kind of learn more about the personalities and the characters in this. And it was a beautiful way to do it. however, as a mystery reader, I did not, I don't think it followed any of the rules of a mystery novel. I, I love a good murder mystery, right? Like, they're awesome. I can be into it and just like can't put it down. And the difference is like, you develop, you develop the characters to a degree. You don't get as deep with the characters. So when you find out. One. You know who the murder that someone died in the beginning, right? It was kind of ambiguous. So we didn't know. We kind of held our hope. So I didn't like that. I wish they would've just told us in the beginning that she was dead. They alluded to it, but they didn't say it. Um, and then the second part is like, if you're going to talk about a dead character, I don't wanna like them, don't make me like the character that is gonna be dead in the end, right? So like we learn about a character who has died, but we don't know them well enough to care that they're dead. And we're trying to figure out who the person is that did this to'em, or if we do, they're kind of like flat, they're flat enough character where you're not emotionally involved in the story as much. so yeah, I didn't, I didn't like that from a mystery novel. Um, Side, and it was pretty obvious to me, like, who would be the person to do this? It, there wasn't really a twist or turn in that regard, which is another element for mystery novels that you'll find like, oh, I thought it was this person, but it really turned out to be this. Now the twist would've been like it being the, the dad or something like that, or whatever. I guess they kind of threw in the April did something, but it doesn't sound like April actually killed her. April knew she was gonna die in the closet if she wasn't already dead and she just put her in the freezer because she knew that if she started to smell, they're gonna be kicked outta her house longer. Her, she said she did it to buy time. Um, so I don't think that really makes her the bad guy Exactly. In this, like she was just trying to preserve her family for something that had already been done. Um, yeah, go ahead. Joy.

Joi: 1:07:57

I disagree. I feel like even though this is technically like a mystery, um, it's one of those things where, yeah, you can have like a character like that you think did it, but didn't really do it. But I feel like with this story in particular, because it hits home with like the real black girls missing in America constantly, and c p s failing and the system failing, it's that it's one of those things where it's like, Sure it can be like more like almost fantasy where it could have been this or twist or, but it's, I think it's sadder and more impactful to have just been like, no real mystery. We all know the mom did it and the mom did it. You know, it was just like a case of abuse and neglect and it's horrible. Like, I it's not

Jas: 1:08:40

but to your point, you said it's no real mystery. There's no mystery in it. I'm not guessing.

Jann: 1:08:45

is a mis, the, the fact that you were guessing to the end, like proves that it was a mystery. We're all trying to figure out what happened to her. Like I told you at one point, I thought it was like a whole. Sex trafficking ring with the church involved. And that's why Michael knew, like I feel like I was guessing the whole time. So it was a mystery. Like we held out hope, which means it was a mystery, you know? Like if they had told

Joi: 1:09:07

alive.

Jann: 1:09:08

yeah, they, if they had told us she had died, point blank, like I feel like that would've took the mystery out of it because then it's like, who did it? When we knew who did it, like who the culprit was, the mystery was what happened? Can we still help? Why is no one helping? Like, the mystery was like a whole, like very sinister, like the whole environment seemed sinister because there were all these systems who had so much authority who could have helped the whole time, but they weren't. And we still didn't know what happened to this 13 year old girl. You know, like all of those things, like I feel like in, I don't know a lot, like I don't read a lot of mystery. I've read a couple, but I also know like when you get into like really deep into a genre, there are different tropes that you think of. Like with romance, there are like a hundred different tropes you can have. Like I feel like it might be the same with mystery, where there is some where you learn like what happened to the person and you're trying to figure out what happened and who did it the whole time. And there are things like this where it's more subtle, like you kind of know, but not really, you know, who did it if something happened, but we're trying to figure out what happened, you know?

Joi: 1:10:16

I think, um, when you bring up the sex section from King, I forgot that I thought about that too. That was the first thing I thought. I thought that the mom had sold her. And, um, because like when she first went to go answer, she said that the mom was completely different. Um, that the show, the TV was on, but it was never a show that the kids really liked. Um, I don't know if she said a man was there or not, but men go in and outta the house or something like that. And then they also said that she wa it was, there was clues that she was sexually abused and that was never answered either. So I'm like, who could have did that? You know what I mean? So there was a few different things that she could actually kind of like think about and see what it was like. There's a couple different like post-it notes, you know, with the red

Jas: 1:10:56

a good point, I guess. Alright, one, I wanna, I wanna comment on what you just said, but first I wanna go back to the mystery thing. Me going in thinking this is a mystery, was a turnoff for me. If it was a drama, a thriller, whatever, fine. But calling a mystery is not. Yeah. I think that's what set me off like, This is horrible. No, this is not what I signed up for type of situation. If I had signed up for drama, then yes, that makes sense to me. Um, in regards to the sex trafficking, I forgot I had that thought too. And you said they never answered the question on what was happening as far as her being sexually abused. April said that she had sex with the neighbor, which it sounds like the neighbor was older, which I thought was interesting. And the other part too was that, um, Jacob's brother, she, Jacob's brother knew, she knew, he knew Claudia and he knew Monday and when Monday said that, well, I don't know. I, I had a thought that maybe she was messing around with Jacob's brother as opposed to Jacob until Jacob told his story about what happened with them. But, um, I thought maybe because we had that one story where April was like, they didn't reveal this, but it sounds like April was pretty much prostituting so she can afford. To take care of her family. I almost feel like Monday started doing the same thing because there was things that she wanted, like who bought the hair dye for her to do her hair at home? Um, yeah. And just things like that. She couldn't even for clothes or barely ate lunch or whatever.

Joi: 1:12:33

Mm-hmm.'cause the mom was always saying that she's fast and like she's been fast and she was a baby. Like, what? So yeah, that's what made me think that she sold her too, and that that's why the other kids were there, but she wasn't, you know, so,

Jas: 1:12:49

Hmm.

Joi: 1:12:50

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:12:52

Yeah, I thought it was a sex trafficking ring, and unfortunately I thought they had sold August. Um, I did think that he wasn't gonna be around anymore, just'cause you didn't hear about him at all. Like you heard about April taking Tuesday around. I was like, where is August then?

Joi: 1:13:05

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:13:05

Um, so yeah, I thought they, that they had sold both of those poor babies.

Joi: 1:13:10

And I think too, because um, with August at the beginning it seemed like August was like more under the care of Monday and Tuesday care. I mean, not Tuesday, April care more about Tuesday. And that's probably why April was like, look, you gotta go in the freezer too with August.'cause you didn't do your job. And now I gotta take care of mine any way that I can, you know? And which was Tuesday, so.

Jas: 1:13:33

Huh?

Jann: 1:13:35

It's crazy.

Joi: 1:13:36

Yeah. Tragic. It's a tragic story with a tragic ending, you know,

Jas: 1:13:42

I can, I can

Jann: 1:13:43

about like the hard decisions that you have to make

Jas: 1:13:45

exactly. I can see April's reasoning though. Like she's like, I can either say something to see if I can help Monday if she's even alive, or I can know I can for sure protect Tuesday. Like, what? Which is it going to be? Because she was worried too about, about Monday saying something. I. And I'm getting split up and putting the system again,

Joi: 1:14:11

she did say that. But my thing is too, like you said, that the mom like babysat or went to work every once in a while, whatever. I don't understand why April wouldn't try to help her, like get water or food while the mom was gone. You know? She left her in there.

Jann: 1:14:25

else would probably, I mean, there's no, she probably did give her some water or food, or maybe there was like a key that she didn't have access to. Like you never know, like

Joi: 1:14:34

Yeah.

Jann: 1:14:36

I feel like the poor girl was traumatized. She lived this her whole life, like. I don't understand the reasoning like some people have like, well, no, she's 18, so, or 17. She's old enough to know better. Um, I remember, did you guys watch Shameless?

Jas: 1:14:52

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:14:54

There was a point where like, um, Debbie was starting to like, try to go out and like, uh, have relationships with guys and the person I was watching it with kept saying, oh, so Debbie's a hoe. And I was just like, what are you talking about? She's a kid. And he was like, well, you know, if she's old enough to do this, then she's old enough to know better. Like, what are you saying? Like, whatcha even talking about? Like, I, I just feel, I don't understand the reasoning of, okay, if they're old enough to do these things and they're old enough to know better. Like, that's just insane to me. This is a child who's still developing their brain and who has been through more stuff than most adults. Like, I, I just don't get it. Like people are.

Jas: 1:15:38

I don't either. I don't either. And I think that's, that was the whole point of the book though, is that people were treating these kids like they were adults, including their parents.

Jann: 1:15:48

not listening to them.

Jas: 1:15:49

Exactly. How frustrating does that have to be? You know, like you're telling me I'm an adult, you're telling me I need to do adult things, but you don't listen to me and you're telling me I can't do a lot of the things adults do. Except for stuff you want me to do,

Joi: 1:16:04

a lot of the things too, when it comes to it, it's just like, oh, well she's doing adult thing, so she must think she's an adult. But it comes down to she's still a kid, you know? And who taught her the right and the wrong, the bad, and the ugly? Like the world isn't perfect. Who says she's not getting taken advantage of? Are you saying that the, the boy in the situation is also an adult and he should know better? I doubt it. So it's one of those things where it's just like you have to take your. Your responsibility of being the adult in the situation. And so like, I failed these kids basically, and and you have to teach them. Sure. Like, like thinking about it, like evolutionary wise, like this is one of the longest times that people, like humans live from bacteria and viruses and everything. So of course you're gonna have urges and you're growing and puberty and all these things. So obviously you're going go more towards those things. But you have an adult, you have parents, you have a community to teach you better so that you can survive throughout those years, you

Jas: 1:17:03

though is we don't know our history enough to know why we even do some of the things we do. I read an article about, for example, just going back to the corporal punishment, like beating your kids. Like that's so big in the black community because in the slave days they, their kid would do something where the master would try to beat their child and they don't want anyone beating their child. Like, listen, I'll beat'em. So they don't have to worry about, that's them protecting them from this other person who was going to do it. And they beat'em. Exactly. So they beat'em. I'm doing this so that they, one, they don't do it and possibly kill you. And two, so that you know that this is how you're gonna get beat for the rest of your life. And that is just a horrible story. Like, and we just kept that up. We just kept doing that. And to a degree, like, I mean, I understand what you're saying, like life is hard, but you're putting this. Thought in this person's mind that it's okay for someone to put their hands on you and physically harm you, and there's literally no situation where that's okay for someone to physically harm you. Um, so yeah, I, I, I don't think we do enough introspection into that. Like it's one thing to like have to deal with your kid in the moment because they are not doing what they, what you want them to do. But also, like a lot of things are put together. Kids don't know how to reason, yet they don't know the difference between right and wrong. And like if someone tells you to do something and you mean now, like they just don't know those things. And unfortunately I think we forget that or we don't know that and think it's disobedience when it's just brain development isn't all the way there yet. Um, so yeah.

Joi: 1:18:46

Not to mention if you're traumatized as a child or, or a teenager during that brain development phase, you're stunted. So even the mom, obviously, she went through some kind of trauma as well, so she could've, um, you know, regressed honestly. So it's just, and put her in, in a different kind of, um, situation too. This all gives a huge reason as everyone needs therapy and figure out those traumas and do that and like, make sure that you don't teach the wrong things to your children. Like there's a rhyme and reason for everything. So you need to like, you know, like it made sense maybe back in the days to beat your kids, to keep'em safe. But today that's not the case. Talking to your children makes more sense because they have to learn the empathy, they need to have the emotional control. You know, as far as, um, we're all black, we're all gonna have black kids. When it comes to like, um, things like police brutality, our kids need to know more laws. Our kids need to know how to re um, stay engaged, but stay like calm because other people will try to make them go and be aggressive or argue or do anything like that to make the situation worse. So, no, but the times that you have to teach your kids during that time, but you also have to know to teach your kids during that time and not just bring in what you learned from the time that you grew up, because that's not easy either, so.

Jas: 1:20:10

And that bring it onto that joy like it, based on what you're saying, I feel like communication is a survival skill. I don't think people have put that together. Just going back to like Claudia not being able to be a good communicator and when it comes to talking to adults, because one, she has zero experience talking to adults because she knew she would get in trouble for talking to adults. Um, so yeah, that can be a survival skill even when it comes to police brutality. And then the second point you brought up as far as like everybody needs therapy. I love that they put that in the book because it seemed like Claudia's parents was doing all these things involving everybody telling the church, telling her friends, telling her, all these people in the neighborhood what happened and they weren't going to therapy. Like, why the hell you pulled your kid outta school because she's forgetting things and you're just after her, her lapse the second time. This is now when you believe that it's time to go to therapy. I mean, I'm glad it came to that conclusion, but it's like, it just shows like that is still not a top priority in the black community to get help get. Therapy and we need it more so than I think a lot of people do, just because we do deal with an enormous amount of trauma. Even though we personally don't go through any trauma, which you know, you're going to go through trauma. There's still so much generational trauma from your parents and what they experience and then your grandparents and then just dealing with just all the things that are happening in society. Um, so I'm glad that they put that in there. Like that is the conclusion. That is how we get to fix things.

Joi: 1:21:40

I feel like at the very least for reparations therapy should be free for African Americans. Absolutely. At the very least. At the very least, everyone needs to needs help from the trauma that they've been been caused by them and their generations behind

Jann: 1:21:56

And all these systems of oppression that are still in place. I think that was like, again, I keep using the word sinister, but that's what it seems like where you can't pinpoint how like the oppression or the trauma is happening, but it's there. Like all of these systems had the opportunity, like any one, if just one worked out, this situation could have been prevented. But there were so many that failed when they had the power to help. And it's not even oh, I tried and I couldn't do it. Like they were abusing their power to a certain extent and being dismissive purposely. And Jasmine, to your point, intimidating when they should have been asking questions and yeah, even when the teacher took her to the office and was like asking like, where is this student? The person in the office seemed annoyed rather than concerned.

Jas: 1:22:46

Right.

Jann: 1:22:48

Yeah, it was just a very sinister vibe, the whole book, and I, I would it again, I felt like if I put the book down, like I was also failing Monday. Like I felt like I should care. Like we need to figure out what happened to this girl, which is why I listened to it straight through. So,

Joi: 1:23:05

You know what else too? It, it, it dawned on me too, that Monday and Claudia, they looked so much alike that they could have been twins. I feel like Claudia's mom especially wanting more children, she probably would've held onto that a little bit more too, what I said earlier, like inviting her over more, inviting her to Atlanta or any of these different things she could have done for this girl.'cause could you imagine like having a little girl that's not related to you whatsoever, but just being like, you know, you look like my daughter, but I really couldn't like, put myself out there because of this, um, kind of stigma of just staying like nuclear family business is nuclear family business pretty much, you know?

Jas: 1:23:48

think per, I think she had an issue with her mom, and I think that was her way of kind of like dismissing Monday. I feel like if she was warmer with her mom, if her and her mom had more in common, she would've, she would've taken her in a little bit more. But I think there's probably even a little resentment towards Monday because of her mother and I. I think that's messed up. Yeah.

Jann: 1:24:11

Well, she was dealing with so many, uh, miscarriages and I feel like I didn't, we didn't know that, when she went to the door and Mrs. Charles said, well, I have a lot of kids to deal with, so I have to go back in. I know you only have the one. So, and like I was like, okay, like who,

Jas: 1:24:29

No. She said, I know you could only have the

Jann: 1:24:32

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't, it didn't seem as bad to me when I didn't know about four for the miscarriages. It's just that was a low blow. And yeah, I agree. There was probably some resentment there. Um,

Joi: 1:24:49

Definitely. But I mean, after having four miscarriages, the way that my mind would've worked, Charles had four kids, you know, and I would've looked at them just like, my daughter is so close to this family, let me at least help these kids. Let me like, you know, the way that, you know, the family's struggling. Claudia's mom knew that they obviously gave clothes to, um,

Jas: 1:25:15

Monday.

Joi: 1:25:16

You know, bring some things over for the other kids, maybe make a dinner. Like at this point you're in a better position than what that family is, no matter what. That, um, mother said, if she were to take it, she could look at it as like handouts. Be like, listen, I made too many ribs for the church barbecue or whatever. Take some like May, and that's where the community comes, comes in. even though maybe you don't get along with the mom, per se, there's four little kids over there that needs the help, you know?

Jas: 1:25:42

Yeah, that's, I I feel like it's a fight or flight response though. Like, she knows something's wrong with this household. She can either see if she can slowly get her daughter to stop hanging around

Joi: 1:25:52

Mm-hmm.

Jas: 1:25:52

not have to take that on or take on the whole family. Like that's a big ass you're asking for. she's already paying for kid like clothes for Monday. Is she gonna do it for April and August and Tuesday? Like she has four

Joi: 1:26:04

Not even pay for kids, not even pay for them, but you're obviously a member of the church that's very involved. Like, Hey, let's get this drive going. You know, like, let's see if we get some extra shoes or something. And not necessarily just for the family, but for people in need, you know?'cause she even said that on Claudia was like, that mom is too proud to be in this at the soup kitchen. She wouldn't be there. But I feel like if you came over with your daughter going, Hey, let them play, let's, let me heat this lunch, this dinner up for you and your kids. Like, make more of an effort to be there for that family, I feel like would've helped a little bit, you

Jas: 1:26:37

I agree. I agree with that. There's more she could have done.

Joi: 1:26:42

I, I don't know, like these kind of stories are sad, but I feel like having these kind of things out there, It makes people like us go like, you know, maybe if we see something even slightly like this, maybe we'll reach out. I'm like, oh, let's have a community. Like what can I do to help a little bit more?'cause we know the issues are there. We know people are still struggling. What can we do to help to maybe prevent something, to be so, so tragic? Obviously the system isn't there necessarily for us to help, but maybe we can be there for each other at the very least, you know?

Jas: 1:27:14

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:27:14

Yeah, for sure. I think that's a good point actually. Like that seems to be the takeaway from this book is like if you see something, say something for sure.'cause you never know the impact it could have. but with that said, let's, and listen to your kids. With that said, um, is anyone's ratings changing after hearing this discussion? And I'll go first. I'm still giving it a five joy.

Joi: 1:27:39

a five. Jazz. What if, okay. What if I said separated from being a mystery? Do you like it as a story in general, or

Jas: 1:27:51

I think it was traumatizing, like

Joi: 1:27:53

Mm.

Jas: 1:27:54

it's. It was traumatizing for me to hear, like, I, I didn't need to read a book to know that this exists. Like

Jann: 1:28:00

Here's the

Jas: 1:28:01

it more in your face.

Joi: 1:28:03

Mm-hmm.

Jann: 1:28:03

I'm just, I'm gonna put it, I know a piece. Some people like sad things and I don't think this is a story anyone can actually like, like, but I do feel like it has this purpose because there are some people who don't know that things like this go on and they should know because they'll have that same takeaway is if you see something, say something, and just talking about the importance of community rather than like individualism, which I feel like in America does run rampant. Like I feel like we take it so like. We value it a little bit too much sometimes. Um, so I feel like this story does have a place, it's not necessarily my thing, but if I, if someone were to write a story like this, I can't find fault with anything that she did, you know, like I wouldn't have done it any other way if I were to tell this story. And I felt like she did things that I wouldn't have even thought to do. Like the little clues that she was like going through this a third time rather than the first. Like, I, I feel like it was done extremely well. So that's why I give it a five star. I would never read this book again. Do I have that thought too? Like I need to read this again. Um, so that I can see all the little clues, but then I also thought, I'm not reading this again. I can't go through that again. Not to say that I don't wanna buy the book'cause the cover art is great as well and I wanna support her. I think she's an awesome author, but I can't put myself through it again.

Joi: 1:29:21

I feel like I, I completely understand where Jasmine came from, where you said it was traumatizing. You don't wanna relive it'cause this is real life. For me, like I always say that I don't read historical fiction and like some of the other books we read, I'm like, this is what happens. You know? It's a system. People hate black people, you know what I mean? But something about this really hit home, I feel like, just because like, I could easily be in a situation like that, or any of us could being either a parent or being a teacher, like I would like to be. Um, I don't know. It's one of those things just like, you know, when you have like a story where it's like almost, um, Like, you know, it's a story, but it could have happened. You know, it's like one of those cautionary tales, you know? So it's just good to know, just in case. But I don't look at this as a story as like just being traumatic, just to be traumatic to black people. You know? I don't wanna relive slavery just because I feel like this has a message and it's a message to get out to improve things, not just to traumatize, you know, this is what happened. Like obviously like some of the, um, historical nonfiction, it has, you know, historical things that actually happened. But what is the lesson here? What are we learning from it? You know? Um, I feel like this, we're learning something. We're looking more into like, let's look at ourselves and how we can change and be better for our community, you know? So, um, that's how I kind of look at it, and that's why I didn't really like, dislike it for being real, you know, and being like, not necessarily an escape. It's more like putting us in a situation as a black girl of today looking for help and no one's helping her. So, and that's the opposite of what you wanna do today, you

Jas: 1:31:04

That's a, that's a good point. And when I do think about the book, like I think the writing was amazing. Like she's a brilliant writer. Just how she described things, how she was able, it wasn't a very long book, but she was still able to put a good, deep character view on everyone, even characters that you didn't think were like the dad. She described what he was like for her. And we barely saw him in this book'cause he is always on the fricking road. So I think she did a brilliant job of that. I like that she included the African American vernacular English in there as well. Um, and just there were so many different, um, themes of like self-hate, especially in Claudia's family, things that they would say and do, which you wouldn't, you wouldn't think. You could see it in Monday's family, but also in Claudia's. Um, so I, I think it was a very realistic view of what the African American family is like. Um, and what are some of the struggles that we have to, we have to deal with. So I do think it is a very real picture there. You call it a thriller or drama. I think I would probably give it a higher score because from a writing perspective, from, um, the story, the way it was told, the way they put clues in and the way that they were telling. A story that was happening in two different timeframes is, uh, brilliant. It was brilliant. It was a really good book in that regard. I just didn't like it being destroyed as a mystery.'cause it wasn't, it wasn't what I expected.

Jann: 1:32:34

it was actually classified in a couple of genres, though it wasn't a thriller in the mystery and the young adult novels. Um, so let's just do young adult, what would you rate it if we were a young adult novel?

Jas: 1:32:45

I, I'll give it a five then for young adult, because I think about books in young adult like Twilight.

Joi: 1:32:56

Dang.

Jas: 1:32:57

Oh, you guys are so judgy, so judgy. I can't even be the judge one. Um, but you think about the writing here.

Joi: 1:33:05

before. Yeah.

Jas: 1:33:07

Okay. Think about the writing of Twilight. How does she describe people and think about the writing in this book, how she describes people, and I mean, the difference is there. Absolutely. I. So, um, yeah, it's a great book. If you're looking at it from just a young adult novel and this is something that happened, I would give it a five in a, a young adult

Jann: 1:33:27

I wa I wanna defend my laughter right there because I read Twilight as a teenager and I liked it as a teenager. So a young adult I think is doing fine, but just hearing the, the book, Twilight in Relationship to this book, I think is kind of laughable. So yeah, I'm.

Joi: 1:33:46

The one thing that kind of, um, so when I was waiting for, to do this podcast, I was super excited about this book. I was sad about this book, and I wanted to see what other people thought because we're not supposed to talk about the book until the podcast. And I was reading a lot of the reviews and a lot of people were annoyed that she used so much a a V E in the story. But

Jann: 1:34:05

that was a part of the world.

Joi: 1:34:07

yeah, it was just like, it's one of those things, like I can see what they mean, especially being an adult, reading the book. But if you put yourself in a situation, that's what it is. Like you would have a kid growing up pretty much next door to the hood too, so they'll use more a a v e. Like it, it's realistic, you know? Um, and you can't tone or tell people how to. Talk or anything.'cause that throws into the system as well. If Claudia went into the police station, not using a a V E or not being dyslexic, maybe she would get more help. Maybe if she could explain herself more, she would get more help. And I feel like having her have these different walls that she would have to hit if she wasn't a kid, you know, um, being one of them, or, you know, not using a a V E.'cause I've noticed, she's like, nah, like, she's not missing like that. You know what I mean? I feel like she would've been taken more seriously, but that's also part of respectability, you know, and that's another issue, part of the system.

Jas: 1:35:07

Yeah. Right. Like when, at what point did a a V E become bad? Like why is it, it's a part of our culture, it's a part of American history, so, and it's a part of our today. Just because the white majority does not accept it does not mean that it is not a language that is used like any other languages that are used in United States.

Joi: 1:35:27

Yeah. So I just wanted to bring that out so that people can, like, if you did get like, kind of like, eh, I'm not really feeling it because of that. Think of the reason why, like you're part of the story when she writes. That way, you're not an outside member looking in. You're supposed to be part of it. And that's how these kids were speaking, you know, in that area. So just like one of those things, like if you're gonna read a story like that, remember when you review it, why it's written that way, you know what I mean? So that's, I just wanted to throw that out there because I saw a lot of that and they marked it down a lot. Like they were like, oh, it'll be a five star, but I marked it as three because the A A V E got too much, or these kids said whatever, too much. What teenager did you not meet that sits whatever, a lot, you know what I mean? Like if you're reading a cultural story, which I think it is, like it's the black culture, then you, you have to realize that we're gonna have our own sayings, our own kind of like way to speak our own dialect, you know,

Jas: 1:36:21

Something else I liked that she did is when she was writing her journal to, to Monday, all her spelling errors that they read out and all the things that she was getting wrong, you can slowly see that it was getting better as she was going into her classes. There's so many little things like that in the book that are just, it's brilliant. Like she thought through how the message was, was coming across even in, in that regard. So yeah,

Joi: 1:36:46

Even, um,

Jas: 1:36:47

of brilliant.

Joi: 1:36:48

when the way she wrote the other kids in the high school when Monday first went missing, and you have like the people that were still making fun of her, but then you're just like, these are still kids. They're very, like, they're not really empathetic to the situation. They probably don't realize how real or how close the situation is to them. Some of them did obviously like leave her alone, you know, but that, that one kid that just like kept picking at her and picking at her, like they, they throw her out like a, like a Turkey. That was real fucked up to say, but that's an immature child, right. Saying things like that. And I feel like maybe that was a wake up call for him too, when she's just screaming and like, I thought about her screaming in that cafeteria. And just the trauma that those other kids went through, just having her screaming in the cafeteria, having a breakdown. You know, all those kids should have been like, you know, maybe the, the teacher should have like, let's have them talk to people, you know, just in case. Make sure the school counselor is like available maybe for a couple days for these kids, because that's traumatic in itself, much less your best friend going missing. You're the only one looking for her and she's dead, you know, and then getting bullied at

Jas: 1:37:49

language when she spoke in the other language that only they knew and she couldn't stop and no one understood her. Like, that just broke my heart because like literally you look like you're not making any sense. They think that she's speaking in tongues, but really she's speaking this language that only her best friend who's now dead can understand. Like that, that hit hard. Like yeah, it was

Joi: 1:38:13

then for her to not speak at the funeral, so that should have been another sign that she needed therapy from her parents. You know what I mean? And then kids to go out there and speak too. Like when they bullied Monday?

Jas: 1:38:26

That funeral was bullshit. That funeral was bullshit and I didn't wanna be a part of it. Like, that's, that's the take I got from that. And April said the same thing, like April didn't speak. At the funeral either, and they both knew her the most. Like you have people up there saying that, that she was their friend and which they were her bullies. Um, yeah. And then all these people, only people who really spoke that actually knew her was the teacher. And then she stopped. She sounds like she had her own trauma too.'cause she didn't, she moved. She moved after the incident. Um, but yeah, I get

Jann: 1:39:01

I was gonna say.

Jas: 1:39:02

speak.

Joi: 1:39:03

No, I'm not saying that she have. Yeah. What you say, jam?

Jann: 1:39:07

I was gonna say you about the kid that was making fun of her, um, Carl or whatever his name was. Like, you never know what's going on with his story either. Like he probably has his own trauma. Like I think that was a very clear, clearly represented in this book that you never know what other people are going through and especially in this neighborhood, this like that we're all in. Um, yeah, it's just you, you, you're put through a lot. Everyone I feel like is put through a lot. Like definitely it hits harder when you're in a lower economic status, but I feel like all of us in the African American community, um, has some kind of trauma with systems that are put in place right now.

Joi: 1:39:48

even him being a child and saying something so heinous like that, I feel like that's one of those things like, you should know better than say something like that. Like, that's awful. We all know

Jas: 1:39:57

I feel like

Joi: 1:39:57

dead. She knows she was abused. You know, she was frozen in a freezer.

Jas: 1:40:02

that's the same thing as saying though, like, You, you should know better. You're this age, like there's no difference in what you just said, and they should know better. You're this age, you don't

Joi: 1:40:12

like. feel like things, well, that's true. I don't know the situation either. I feel like when it comes to decency, though, even being 13, and if we were to find something out like that, I feel like we wouldn't be outright cruel to somebody when something

Jann: 1:40:28

But that's a, that's speaking from a place of privilege too.'cause we were lucky in like a lot of aspects in that we didn't go through a lot of stuff by ourself. Like you even said in our last discussion, joy, like African Americans tend to like laugh at inappropriate things sometimes. Not to say this is like laugh worthy, but I feel like we do that because of all of our trauma. Like you don't know what, that could be a whole other book about child abuse and everything else. His story and you don't know that. Um, not defending him at all. Still a little shitfaced, but you just can't say like, you should know better in situations like that because you don't know what's going on in that kid's life.

Jas: 1:41:07

like what's

Joi: 1:41:08

of things where.

Jas: 1:41:08

thinks that that's okay. He girl, he came from an A household where he thinks that is an appropriate joke. What

Jann: 1:41:16

what has

Jas: 1:41:16

parents like

Jann: 1:41:17

him about Exactly.

Joi: 1:41:20

That's true. I mean, I mean, all that's true. I feel like he should have understood that that was not okay when first Jacob went up to him and said, fuck off. And then the two other bully girls was like, leave her alone. You know? But he, it's just like, kind of like he wanted to p on to the point where she broke like that, you know, um, at the school. So it was

Jas: 1:41:42

I don't think he was expecting her to break.

Joi: 1:41:45

Yeah.

Jas: 1:41:45

anyone was, I, I think they were shocked. He actually started by saying, Hey, I'm sorry about what happened to your friend. But he said it in the most insincere way, um, possible. Um,

Jann: 1:42:00

Like he thought it was okay to joke about it while saying, sorry.

Joi: 1:42:04

Yeah. But instead of just being like, oh, let me back off, he just piled on and continued to say what he was saying to her even after people were like, relaxed, because the, the Turkey, the Turkey thing is what set me off too. I'm just like, what? Like at first it's just like, you don't know how to say like, your condolences to this one girl you don't really know. You kind of bullied her before and her friend who's dead, you know? But then to pile on in, in such a horrible way, you know,

Jas: 1:42:29

If that's, I mean, there's so many, there's so many things that those kids, the kids were so cruel. Like it just broke my heart. Some of the things that they would say, even when she was missing and they knew that she was the only person looking for her friend, and they were still making jokes about them being lesbians and she.

Jann: 1:42:44

the homophobia in this book was awful.

Jas: 1:42:47

really, it was so bad. Like how she's obviously hurting and y'all know this and she feels alone because she doesn't have any other friends. Y'all know this and you're still making fun of her. Um, so yeah, kids, kids can be cruel, but I, I try to, I try to keep in mind like, what, what is going on in their situations, their households, they're still kids at the end of the day where they think this is okay. You come from a homophobic background where you think we're best friends. I remember having a best friend, people saying these things about me because we were so close, like, oh, they're lesbians. And it's just like, it just goes back to like our society that it wants to break down female friendships. Female friendships are so rare that closeness like that, that usually men, boys, feel threatened by it. And you see that too with other, like, it was two girls who were always together picking on them, calling them lesbians when they're always together as well. So what's the difference between them and YouTube? But if you can put the blame on them for whatever reason, then you know, maybe you're not gonna get picked on. So it is, it is just interesting to me and how like, even though that's a very obvious thing I can see as an adult, Claudia and what's her name in Monday, didn't see to make that comeback all the times that they were being picked on. Um, in, in that regard. It just shows you like they're, they're still developing, they're still learning, they don't know, and yeah.

Jann: 1:44:17

Okay, well, um, I think we can wrap this one up. Um, Again, I, I think it was a great book. I'm very impressed with Tiffany D. Jackson and her writing, and I know that we have a lot of her books on our list. Um, which brings me to our next book for next week is also by Tiffany D. Jackson. Um, and this one is a horror. It's still young adult, but in the horror genre. It's called White Smoke. Um, and I'm going to read this synopsis. So Marigold is running from ghosts, the pones of her old life. Keep haunting her, but a move with her newly blended family from their small California beach town to the embattled Midwestern city of Cedarville, might be the fresh start she needs. Her mom has accepted a new job with the Sterling Foundation that comes with a free house, one that Mary now has to share with her bratty 10 year old stepsister Piper. The renovated picture. Perfect home on Maple Street. Sitting between dilapidated houses, surrounded by weary neighbors has its secrets. that's only half the problem. Household items vanish, doors open on their own, lights turn off shadows, walk past rooms. Voices can be heard in the walls, and there's a foul smell seeping through the vents. Only Mary seems to notice worse. Piper keeps talking about a friend who wants Mary gone. But running from ghosts is just a metaphor, right As the house closes in, Mary learns that the danger isn't limited to Maple Street. Cedarville has a secrets too, and secrets always find their way through the cracks.

Joi: 1:45:56

Sounds

Jann: 1:45:57

that is white smoke by Tiffany D. Jackson that we will be reading next week. And I'm not gonna lie, I was very excited that it was Tiffany D. Jackson. And now that I read that synopsis, I'm like, I don't. I wanna read it'cause it sounds scary.

Joi: 1:46:15

sounds good. I'm excited.

Jann: 1:46:18

yeah. I don't know why I put myself through this like horror theme because I'm stressed. All right. But that wraps up this podcast. Thank you Jasmine, so much for joining us. always appreciate your point of view um, any final thoughts?

Joi: 1:46:39

No.

Jas: 1:46:39

Final thoughts? No, I don't think so.

Jann: 1:46:43

Well, um, as always, we wanna hear from you guys. So Joy, can you tell us, um, tell them where they can find us and reach out.

Joi: 1:46:51

Well, you can find us at Black Girl Reads Podcast on TikTok Instagram, um, and our, and our Gmail. Um, just at gmail at the end on Twitter. You can find us at black Girl Reads Pod. The podcast was too long

Jann: 1:47:09

And remember that the black is b l K.

Joi: 1:47:13

because that's how the cool kids spell it.

Jann: 1:47:15

All right, well thanks guys for joining and we'll see you next time.

Joi: 1:47:21

I.

Jas: 1:47:21

Bye.