Empowering Conversations: 'You Can't Touch My Hair' | BGR Book Club Podcast S2E1

In this episode of BLK Girl Reads, join us as we dive deep into the thought-provoking memoir "You Can't Touch My Hair" by the incredible Phoebe Robinson. As fans of her work on "2 Dope Queens" and "2 Dope Queens Podcast," we couldn't wait to explore her written words that delve into topics central to black women's experiences.

We discuss Phoebe Robinson's journey from stand-up comedy to podcasting and writing, highlighting her contributions to black excellence in the entertainment industry. Our conversation delves into the complexities of black women dating, navigating the workplace, and confronting societal stereotypes. Robinson's unique perspective sheds light on the challenges and triumphs that resonate with many black women.

Tune in as we offer our book reviews and recommendations, drawing connections between Phoebe Robinson's memoir and other memoir books that tackle race, women, and identity. We also touch on the influence of the booktube and booktubers communities in shaping contemporary literary discussions.

Throughout the episode, we reflect on Phoebe Robinson's hair journey, as highlighted in "You Can't Touch My Hair," and its significance in the broader context of black women's experiences. We explore the intersections of race, identity, and self-expression through personal anecdotes and insightful analysis.

Join us for a captivating discussion celebrating Phoebe Robinson's humor, intelligence, and candor while addressing essential themes. Whether you're a longtime listener of her podcast or a newcomer to her work, this episode promises to be an engaging exploration of "You Can't Touch My Hair" and its relevance in today's world.

Don't miss out on this enriching conversation that encourages us all to embrace our individuality and the power of our voices. Tune in to BLK Girl Reads for your dose of book reviews and insightful discussions on literature that matters.

Transcript

Jann: 0:01

phoebe Robinson is a stand up comic, which means that often her everyday experiences become points of comedic fodder. As a Black woman in America, she maintains sometimes you need to have a sense of humor to deal with the absurdity of what you're handed on the daily. Robinson has experienced her fair share over the years. She's been unceremoniously regulated to the role of the black friend, as she is somehow the authority on all things racial. She's been questioned about her love of U2 and Billy Joe. Isn't that white people music? She's been called uppity for having an opinion in the workplace. She's been followed around stores by security guards. And yes, people do ask her whether they can touch her hair all the time. Now she's ready to take these topics to the page and she's going to make you laugh as she's doing it. All right, guys. Welcome back to Black Girl Reads season two.

Joi: 0:51

Hey, I'm

Jann: 0:55

Okay. I'm Jan.

Joi: 0:56

Joy.

Jas: 0:58

And I'm Jasmine. I'm visiting.

Jann: 1:01

For our first episode. We're reading, You Can't Touch My Hair and Other Things That I Still Have to Say by Phoebe Robinson. Um, all right, so let's get right into it. Let's do ratings. Joy, what did you think?

Joi: 1:15

Um, I'm giving it a 2.5

Jann: 1:19

Okay, any non spoiler reasoning, or you want to stick to when we get into discussion?

Joi: 1:25

get into it.

Jann: 1:27

Okay, Joy, Jas, what do you think?

Jas: 1:31

I would give it a 3. 5.

Jann: 1:35

Okay, all right, and I'm sticking at a solid three, so right in between you two. All right, well, it doesn't seem like any of us have really an explanation without getting into spoilers So just a disclaimer that there will be spoilers from here on out and let's get right into it Where are your guys's first impression like with the title and then with the overall book? So first title and then overall book when you were done

Joi: 2:02

I think coming off of the season finale. Um, I was all for it. I was really excited for like, yeah, let's continue the discussion, especially because we're going to have Jasmine as a guest again. And then it kind of just, um, I don't know, like it wasn't what I expected. So yeah, goodbye Jasmine.

Jas: 2:26

Just a reminder. It's told by a comedian. So yeah, it was a little bit, it was way. Uh, different than, um, the last nonfiction book we read. We all read together.

Joi: 2:39

I didn't know she was a comedian either, um, going into it, so I came in completely blind, so I had no clue. And then I heard like the first few sentences, and I was like, oh, she's kind of goofy.

Jann: 2:50

I feel like if you didn't know, she was a comedian and coming into it blind, especially after reading Elizabeth Liber's book, I would be completely thrown off. Um, and, you know, when I read the title and I knew it was Phoebe Robinson, um, I knew it was going to be funny. But the title still like drew me in, like, you can't touch my hair and other things I still have to say, like, yes,

Joi: 3:12

Hehehehe.

Jann: 3:12

definitely. I feel like I'm going to relate to this book. And then when I started reading it, I felt a little annoyed

Joi: 3:19

hmm.

Jann: 3:19

just because she, like her sense of humor, um, she fits in so much cringy slang that is also outdated. I wanted to stop listening almost immediately, but. I would say after the 1st, 2 chapters, I had gotten used to it and started relating to the book a little bit more. Um, but it was definitely annoying me a lot. Just because

Joi: 3:40

I'm glad you

Jann: 3:41

I listened to it. So her valley girl twang and with like all the cringy slang that's like, I can't even explain it.

Joi: 3:49

Yeah.

Jann: 3:50

Yeah.

Jas: 3:51

I'll say my first impressions of it. I felt the same way you felt, Jan. Where I was drawn in because I can't tell you. If I had a nickel for every time I had to tell people, you know you can't touch my hair. Or, you know, I don't get an opportunity to say that because they already have their hand in my hair without asking. Um, yeah, I would have a nice little savings account there and it'll be, it'll be good. So yeah, the title drew me in. I didn't know a whole lot about Phoebe Robinson, but, um, seeing the cover of the book, she has her hair natural curly. She's looking at her face expression says. Uh, again,

Joi: 4:29

hmm. Mm

Jas: 4:31

I still have to like deal with this again. So like I'm all for it. Like just seeing the book and the title. What I will say, I felt the same. You mentioned it was outdated. So this book came out in 2016. And um, uh, fun fact, I read this in 2016 when it first came out. And that was a really interesting time for us. Uh, in 2016, that was like one of the worst years prior to COVID, in my

Joi: 4:58

hmm. Mm

Jann: 4:59

Hello.

Jas: 5:00

So it was like reliving it, but also she has some nostalgic things in there as well. And then the other part of it, on top of her being a black woman, she's also from Cleveland, Ohio. So there was a lot of things in there that I'm like, I'll stick this out. I got to see where this goes, even with the cringy, annoying little things that she has there. So yeah, that was my first impressions. Thanks for watching.

Joi: 5:22

was a couple of times where, you know, the meme with the old white guy, he's like taking his headphones off, like kind of disgusting. I feel like that sometimes. Like I couldn't, she would do certain verbally things. I listened to audibly as well. And I'm just like, I can't listen to it with headphones. So I just listened to it through my speaker turned like halfway down. I'm like the vocal, but like the volume goes up and down throughout the book and she'll like, Um, expand her words for like a while. She's like, I want to see how long I can do it before I can get annoying. I was like, well, you did it. It was too long. And I was like, the only reason I stuck it out.

Jann: 5:59

about that. It was funny about that is when she, after she said it, she said mission accomplished and it made me that much more annoyed. Like,

Joi: 6:11

Basically, but Jazzy said you stuck it out because you knew her and it was kind of funny. Whatever. I stuck it out because we have this. I was just like, I was over. I tried listening to it in the car. I tried listening to it with headphones. The only thing that worked was like having it on my phone a little far away from me turned halfway down. I was just like, I gotta get through it, you know?

Jann: 6:30

there was, like, after you got over the, like, the way she was speaking, at least for me, there were a lot of relatable stories in the

Joi: 6:36

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Jann: 6:38

speaking of, like, podcasts, since we're on right now, um. I did not realize the first time I was acquainted with Phoebe Robinson was the stand up like kind of sketch show she does with, um, her friend, Jessica,

Jas: 6:52

Hmm. Jessica Williams.

Jann: 6:55

Williams. Yeah, I forgot her last name, but the two dope Queens show, and I didn't realize that that was based off of a podcast to dope Queens. They had done for a while, and I tried to go back and see if they were still a thing, but it looks like they stopped in 2019. So. Yeah, that was the last episode, but it was interesting to me that, you know, her whole journey where she wanted to be, um, an actor, and then she wanted to be a standup comic, and then she was writing the blog, and then she wanted to be a novelist, and then she had a podcast, I was like, this is interesting, like, it's very relatable for a millennial, like, you kind of have your toes in so many different things to kind of find your path. Um, so yeah, I thought that was cool.

Jas: 7:39

then you start spoke about her being a millennial and hearing this in 2016 to, um, some of the things she said were very much like, I think something shifted drastically from this time that she's speaking of. And then 2020 and that big drastic thing, it was we're not putting up with this shit anymore. Like the world hasn't exactly gotten better. But we're not tolerating it anymore. And I think some of the most cringe worthy things is like her explaining the racism that she endured and how she just. took it like, this is just how it is. I don't have the flexibility to be a full emotional human. I don't have the ability to speak up when I'm being treated badly. And I just have to deal with it. And I think a whole lot of black people post 2020 was like, no, you don't, you don't got to do that. Regardless of the repercussions just do it because like your mental health is a thing

Joi: 8:41

Mm hmm.

Jas: 8:41

So

Joi: 8:42

Her story about her waiting at the, at the, um, picture counter for her frame. I was like, I can't even sit through this story and talk about you were waiting for 10 minutes and they waited on three other people and you just stood there. I'm like, if you don't get up there and get some help, girl! I can't believe that!

Jas: 9:01

time I relate to it. She is me in 2016. I was doing that same stuff just grinning and bearing it and just sucking it all down and just doing what you can to maintain your mental health right then and there, not thinking about how this can impact you long term. Um, so yeah, it was interesting.

Jann: 9:24

So it's interesting, cause we're talking about a lot of the same stuff that we did in our last episode. Um, but from her point of view, like we said, she's a comedian. So did that take away? I know, I know joy, like me, you kind of didn't relate to her humor, but did you think like bringing humor into it? The conversation in general made it more relatable, less relatable. Like, did you feel like she was making light of it? Like, what do you guys think about using comedy to talk about it?

Joi: 9:53

I never felt like she was making light of anything. I think it's a way of coping. I think that our family in particular, we're very funny and even when we're hurt, we're making jokes, you know? So I don't mind the comedy. It's just when it slips into being annoying and annoying your audience, I don't get it. And that's pretty much where I was at. Like I understood the stories. Um, I loved hearing about them and. I could relate to them is, is, it was, you know, I like the comedy. It's just some of the delivery. I didn't care for it. So, you know,

Jas: 10:29

From a comedic standpoint, I, I didn't feel like she made light of it. She even mentioned that in the book where she said, like, this is my coping mechanism, like Joy mentioned, but something that I didn't particularly like Is how she delivered it. I felt like this book was written for white people. Like, she kept addressing white people. And she talked to black people, kind of. But it was almost like, white people, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. And I don't think that's who the target audience is here. I think the title is a little misleading. Um, for who, for the way she delivered the message.

Joi: 11:09

especially when she kept saying you bought this book. So you're here already. So listen to it. Like, well, actually I rented it from the library. So, yeah. Goodbye, Jan.

Jann: 11:24

Yeah. It kind of seemed like she was trying to explain black people to white people. In a

Joi: 11:30

And a book for black women, I feel like, too. Like, how that's it. Yeah. laughing

Jann: 11:43

the story she told about Ice Cube and how all Black people know he can't

Jas: 11:47

Yeah. That

Jann: 11:51

act. But white people keep talking about how he can't act. So now we have to support him. Um, Funny enough, I was thinking that same thing about this book, like, girl, you don't even know. Like... That was, I feel like that was early on when I was still kind of annoyed by her Valley Girl accent she was pretending to have, so... Yeah, I... She was spot on with that though. The fact that she said it was a black secret. That's not really a secret Yeah, mm hmm

Joi: 12:25

I thought it was funny too when she was like, I don't know where, where the black people keep the, um, the secrets, but it's there, you know, I like that part that made me laugh.

Jann: 12:40

So she kept talking about I'm gonna say this one thing and then I want to get into the part of the book that I did like but she kept Talking about how she was gonna talk about pop culture references throughout the book and I feel like I didn't get any of her references,

Joi: 12:56

Yeah.

Jas: 12:56

Really?

Jann: 12:57

like I had to look up so many of them, especially when she was talking about Reese. Um, and the

Jas: 13:04

at Reese

Jann: 13:04

where she was looking over her shoulder, I had to look that up. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then I had to just stop because I was thinking, okay, she's from a different place. So maybe it's just like regional. And then they said she was from Cleveland. And I was like, wait, why don't I get any of your references? And it says she was. I think she's 38 or something. So she's older than us, but not that much older. I just didn't get it. Like, girl, you must've grew up with your grandma or something. But yeah, for some reason I just didn't get any of them. Were there, what else did you guys have to look up? Or is that the only one

Joi: 13:41

Honestly, I'm so used to, um, references that I don't get. I'm just like, Oh. That's why I didn't understand it. Keep it moving. I didn't look up any of them. If I got it, I got it. If I didn't, I was like,

Jas: 13:52

I got all of her references, with the exception of Reese, that was the only one I researched and I could not find anything on a Reese from the 90s who was an R& B singer. I didn't find anything. Maybe I was spelling

Jann: 14:02

I found it? It's spelled R E S. And I had to like, look up the whole album cover and I went back and rewound it. R E S Reese. And I think the album was, um, I don't, um, care or I don't, I forget now, but I saw the album cover. She was looking over her shoulder and I was like, I don't recognize this person at all.

Jas: 14:24

Yeah, okay. I just found it. Thank you for telling me that and also I didn't know who that was either but Yeah, very interesting. I know the one where she talked about how they were when Zendaya where Was it locks? To a grammy situation and it was like, Oh. she looks like she smells.

Jann: 14:45

that she still,

Jas: 14:47

Yeah. Yeah. So all the controversial things that happened when she mentioned, I knew all the, I knew all the references. And it's funny because like, I almost feel like as black women, we take note. of all these things. Like, I'm not, I don't watch the red carpet, anything. I don't like watch award shows really. But when these things happen and it pertains to like a black woman, like, I'm just adding that to my repertoire of something that I need to be aware of. This is how we are perceived.

Joi: 15:18

Right. Like, put it in your back

Jas: 15:20

because it's so rare, exactly, it's so rare where people are just upfront and honest with us and we just deal with so much passive, aggressive gaslighting that it's almost like a survival mechanism being aware of these different pop culture references, at least when it pertains to like black women and negative. in a negative light. But for the most part, yeah, I knew her references. References that she, she had.

Jann: 15:43

yeah, I guess I was exaggerating. Some of them I got, but there was one, she was talking about like James Brown in a mug shot. With his hair messed up. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I had to look that up too.

Jas: 15:55

Oh, wow.

Jann: 15:56

to look up. Yeah.

Jas: 15:58

Interesting.

Jann: 15:59

like, Oh, black people know this. And I hate when people say that and I don't know it because I'm like, shit, much closer to getting that black heart revoked.

Jas: 16:10

That's another thing, too, that, that felt like the pandering to me. The whole, she speak, she has a whole section about how she hates like having to be the person to speak for all black people. When you're doing a lot of that in this book. You're not speaking from your experience, which those are the parts of the story that I enjoy the most. But she does a lot of, well, all Black people, this is what Black people think when you, yeah, to White people.

Jann: 16:37

So let's talk about something that was a huge part of the book. I feel like almost 50%, which is her hair journey. Um, what did you guys think about that?

Joi: 16:49

Now, something about that part, I really like that she discussed it, I really like what she said about it. It's just that sometimes, like, and she's did this a couple times, and I don't mean to be overly critical of this book, you know, I like, I like what she talked about, you know, but um, I just feel like it was a little long run. You know, the list of people that she had to mention and like, you know, throughout the decades and like all the different hairstyles, you know what I mean, when she went through like poetic justice and this one was the perm, this was the Supremes and this and this, I'm like, girl, talk about your hair journey. We're good. That's all we need, you know, so I don't know. I just feel like it went on for a little while, you know.

Jas: 17:25

love that part. I love that part of it. Like, how often do you see a journey, a pop culture for Black women, particular to our hair? I feel like it's such an unknown thing for like, most of our society. But I love, she talked about Halle Berry, and she talked about how like, each of these hairstyles But impacted black women and I think joy you probably weren't as interested because this is probably one of those things like all these references are over your head young and, um, Those are all momentous things where it wasn't just, Oh, Halle Berry changed her hair and it was just in this movie, Sore Fish, um, by the way, but our whole, everything changed. She said, all your aunties had that hairstyle. Mom had that haircut. Mom had an auntie pumpkin hat. All of our aunts had this haircut. So it's not just something where, you know, she's relating to this and saying this is how my hair journey is like, this was culturally how things change for us. in the 90s, of course. So yeah, I like that

Joi: 18:31

my thing is though, it's like, it's not about the references. I feel like those are momentous occasions in the black community. We know about them. I knew about them. It was just like, it was one of those things, again, it was like, you're explaining to black people what black people, like a lot of black people already know, you know, I was like. Yeah, I, yeah.

Jann: 18:49

already knew about it, but, um, I like seeing in a timeline the way that she did. I'll be honest. Like I feel like the hair part of this book was probably the best part of this book. Um, once we moved away from it, I felt like, and it's funny because when I was listening to it, I was like, this is crazy. Then I'm halfway through this book and we're still talking about this. Like, is this just a hair book? And then she got into other things and it was fine, but I felt like I was more engaged when she was talking about her hair journey because she had her hope. own hair journey in there, but was still putting it out like a timeline of like Black history moments with the hair. And which I think is funny that you call Joy a youngin because I like, feel like I fit right in between you two like I am because I've never seen the movie Swordfish, but I know that hairstyle, but I know it like the first time I've noticed her with that hairstyle was in the Flintstones. I don't know, like, I thought that was the first time she showed up with that hairstyle. Um, but I knew the hairstyle still, you know? So when I was listening to it, the only thing going through my mind was, this is the good hair documentary that we deserve. Like, I hate that Chris Rock made that hair documentary when I feel like he had a lot of good information, but at the ti same time, he was still so condescending and like kind of abusive to black women and like making jokes still. Like, it's not funny though, like you're making this hair like documentary to make black women feel better about their own natural hair while still making them the butt of the joke. Whereas I feel like she did the same thing. Maybe not as detailed because it wasn't a whole documentary, but she actually had her own experience going through that and like how she didn't like her hair and how she had it like, or she didn't have to, but she spent time in her classroom looking at other woman's hair and saying, I wish I had more of this hair type or more of that hair type. And so she finally, like, found acceptance with how she looked at herself. Um, I love that. And I wish that would have been the whole documentary and that Chris Rock wasn't involved in it at all.

Jas: 20:55

I love that. And one thing I will add to that, what you said, Jan, um, that I liked about her hair journey is how she was able. to pinpoint specific racist things that happened to her because of her hair. And I was impressed with that when we read the Elizabeth Liba book too, because she also had experiences where she was like, Oh, you feel a certain way about me because of my hair. Not because of my skin color. Like I have, it's rare that I've had moments where I know that I'm being mistreated because of my hair. So I felt like that speaks volumes about like, Just how much journey work you've done on yourself and just being able to understand, um, why you're being treated a certain way. The whole spiel she had about the reality TV show that she was on and they didn't like. Her picture and they said she looked awful and she said, it's because of my hair. I had a, I had a little fro and then she went back and said, okay, if you don't understand, here's the history of the little fro and why this is so like appalling to white people. And I loved, I loved, I didn't like that whole experience for her. It was super cringe. I understood why she didn't like fight in that moment because yeah, editing don't do that to yourself, but also like. She knew, I don't know if she knew at that moment what it was, but maybe after some introspection and thinking about it, she knew why, um, they treated her that way.

Jann: 22:23

Yeah, that was an awful moment. And I don't know, I can't even speak to the rage you feel when you hear about these experiences happening to other women, especially by other women. That's another thing that I wanted to bring up, just the intersectionality of like her being Black and being a woman and how that woman judge. doubled down on what he said about her looking old when it had nothing to do with why she was there. Like, why is that, like, what you say immediately is that you don't like my picture when I'm standing right here and I'm making jokes. Like, judge my comedy. Why are you talking about how I look older, older than your mother? On this picture, like lies immediately because you're a Black woman. You don't look older than his mother. Just

Joi: 23:10

that's what I'm saying. I was like, I doubt that that's true at all. I feel like all three of them are haters. crazy.

Jas: 23:19

The most offensive part is when she said, You come off as the smartest person in the room. You want to like not do that anymore. And the first thing I thought of, the first thing I thought of was my last story I told in our last, our last call where I had someone just honestly say, I don't feel confident in a room, in a meeting with Jasmine. And that is a real thing, like white woman jealousy, and they will make sure to. So

Joi: 23:50

That's what you

Jas: 23:51

just thought that was interesting

Joi: 23:52

another one you just put in your pocket like, Oh, you show me behind the screen a little bit. Gotcha. I got it. Mm hmm. I thought about that incident too. I thought about that story. I was like jasmine just said that's some shit You know when she brought that up too she was like, you know woman solidarity black women and white men women always work together and I was like, yeah sometimes to our detriment like Like um, I don't know that was just like from recently when we've been like kind of Going back into ourselves a little bit as black women, but I'm just like, I don't know why girl Yeah, I don't know why you expected that help mm

Jann: 24:37

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like majority of the time, if I'm working with another woman in the office, and I worked in finance for the majority of my career, um, I didn't work with a lot of women, you know, like finance is a male dominated industry. So when I did see another woman, white, Indian, Asian, black, whatever, like we did have a certain solidarity. And, you know, the higher that you go up, for some reason, the less you can, like, rely on that, which is sad, but that's just how it is. Like, when I first got in, we were all, like, close, and then, as I got to manager, like, in other, like, levels, it's just, yeah, everybody for themselves.

Joi: 25:21

that's true Bonkers

Jann: 25:22

I can see why, like, to, to bring it back around, I can see why she would rely on it, but, yeah, you can't always. And it's disappointing when you can't, because I feel like I always give people the benefit of the doubt, but it takes less and less for them. Like they get less chances with me.

Joi: 25:39

hmm.

Jann: 25:39

Like now with some, before someone were to like screw me over, I say, okay, maybe that was a mistake. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and give them a couple more chances. Now they get one. And then you have to prove to me that you're not trying to screw me over. I've just been burned too many times. So.

Jas: 25:59

and that sucks too, because I want to add on to what you said, Joy. Why would she trust it? Because you have to, we're already like working against the patriarchy, right? There are plenty of men who don't want us, men of all colors, by the way, who don't want us to succeed, who don't want us to grow. And a lot of times all you have. And I will say like black women for the most part, like, I, I, I see another black one. I'm like, yes, I got your back. Please hope that you have mine. Although I've heard some stories before where that's not the case. And that makes me very sad. But, um, you need that you need to have that camaraderie in order to. to be able to succeed in your career and unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who want to make sure even at their own demise that you don't succeed and that is just bizarre to me that there are people out there yeah you're willing to risk your career and your well being to like screw me over like man like just go to therapy just go to therapy

Joi: 27:06

I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of like the opposite of Jan which is surprising It's like, you know, the only people I let in immediately It's black women, you know, I'm like you're gonna have my back. Hopefully, you know, that's the ones I give the opportunity to hurt me Everyone else I have that wall up. I'm like if i'm at work. Oh, hey girl, that's it We don't talk about my weekend or things like how are you today? That's it, you know, and then like if you Do something or say something. I'm like, not surprised. That's why that wall was up. And the only people that I give the chance to actually, like, get to know, like, further than just, like, my co workers are other Black women. Which isn't very often because I'm in Abilene, Texas. But, you know, that, that wall isn't there as often as it is for everybody else. But that's today, 2023 too, so, mm hmm,

Jas: 27:54

Question for you Joy, how often have you been the only, not even black woman, only black person at an organization?

Joi: 28:03

um, here in Texas, um, 100%, um, over when I lived in D. C., um, it's, I was a nanny, so it was just me and I worked for a black family, um, living in D. C., like, doing, like, different jobs, like, um, customer service, it was a good amount of us, so it just depended on where I was, but here right now, um, yeah. There's nothing but, um, me and then white women, Asian women, it's fine. You know, I like them, but that, um, sisterhood isn't there, you know, like we have a good time and

Jann: 28:42

I was gonna,

Joi: 28:43

yeah,

Jann: 28:45

what I was going to say, um, is that I would have, there weren't any other black women. There was one other black women and she was a manager and I eventually moved to her team and she was like the best manager I've still had to this day. So that was awesome. But yeah, there weren't any there were, like I said, barely any women there at all. So, um, when I first started out, there was just none. Period and I would love to say that there was like, some that moved in because I was a broker and there just wasn't any in Austin. Which is where I was at the time. Now in other centers, I can call and maybe talk to another black woman, but it's not like we were there in the office to together, you know, so that would be the reason like I just wouldn't have had an opportunity to open up to anyone if that were the case. So,

Joi: 29:35

And that, and not for nothing, there's black people here. It's just, I have to seek them out in different, like, Black people groups. And that's kind of where I was like, Oh, here's our daily frustrations. This is what we talk about. You know, we meet up and have, like, game nights and stuff. But at work, it's purely work, you know? So,

Jas: 29:53

And that's so hard though, like you're a human at the end of the day. Um, so that's just, it's a tough balancing act, especially if you're in a male dominated industry. I know my first job out of college, I um, I worked for a dealership group in the corporate office. It wasn't a big, Big corporate office, only 30 people, but I was the only woman who worked at Automotive. I was the youngest person by at least, you know, seven or eight years. And I was the only black person. So add all those things in I definitely got treated differently and a lot of people made it seem There are some days where I know I was treated differently because I'm a woman working in automotive. How dare she there's other days I was treated differently because like you you know, I've been in this business before you were even born How dare you try to tell me what to do and then there were instances where it's like you're a black woman like you have no how dare you have confidence and walk in here and be this type of person. so, you know, going into an environment where there are people who are vicious, I'm just going to put that they're vicious. Like they are looking and counting all the days until I leave. Like I asked someone to email my boss on my 90th day to say, I don't think Jasmine's working out. I think we need to let her go somewhere. I barely, I saw him like twice. Yes, I seen him like twice in the, the three, the 90 days I was there and yeah, he just didn't like me for whatever reason and luckily I had a boss who had my back. He copied me on the email and said, Jasmine's doing great. Thanks for your opinion. No one asked for do your job and leave us alone. That's just what he like. Reply to them, but I was so thrown off because like my whole demeanor is like I'm friendly, you know If someone asks me for help i'm gonna do what I can To make sure I can help them. I'm here to make sure that y'all make money and for someone to just be like behind my back like working to kick me out of the company is just It's bizarre. So yeah, in those occasions,

Jann: 32:01

before that? That he didn't like you

Jas: 32:04

he smiled, he shook my hand. He was so happy to meet me. Like the nicest guy you ever meet. And I heard people like complaining about him, like, yeah, he's not that great. And I'm like, I don't even see it. Like he seems like a nice guy until I saw that, that email that went through, which he didn't last long at the company shortly after that. But, what I'm saying is. In that environment where it's mostly men, there's probably like two women in management positions in this whole, like it was only 30 people in corporate, but there was like hundreds of people who work within the dealership group and there's only two, maybe three women in leadership positions. I'm one of them, and I'm the only Black one, and I'm the youngest one. So, of course, like, the other woman who was there, one of the other women was like, Yes, I got your back. Let me know if you need anything. It's tough out here. Here are the things that I had to deal with. Because that's your, that's how you survive. It's a survival mechanism.

Joi: 33:00

I think it's true, too. I think it's important to mention that you both work in very, male dominated fields and finances. And, um, when we said it was the automobile, like, sales. I work in a very woman centric with kids. I work in child care, so it's a whole different minefield. Like it's mostly women. I've seen one man who is our complete director here and in Dallas, but, the, their circumstances are a little different when it comes to women, what a woman run kind of company. So it's just like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, this is niceties and I do my job well, and it's a whole different level of just like, Not trusting each other, sort of, and just like, kind of bitchness that naturally happens, so it's just like, yeah, that wall is up, girl. I can't trust none of them. Yeah, but, luckily there's another black girl that's getting hired, so I'm like, yes! New best friend, let's go! So, yeah.

Jann: 34:01

well, it's interesting because yes, you said like that happened to you where there's someone spoke up against you like that You didn't even know didn't like you so and that he was a man So I think no matter like men or women like you're gonna have that I can think of an instance where When I was a broker on the phones, we had weekly team meetings where we really didn't need to have this meeting, but the boss wanted to be the boss. So we had to go to the team meetings. So we did icebreakers. Every week, even though it was only seven people on the team and we knew each other very well.

Joi: 34:37

Because of the icebreakers!

Jann: 34:42

well, we were doing an icebreaker. We had to go around and say, like, something we liked about everybody. Ridiculous icebreakers. And the one guy got to me and said, I like Janiece's hair a lot. And I just was going to say, oh, thank you and move on. And the girl, one girl on our team scoffed so loudly, it was like, huh, really?

Joi: 35:06

What a BITCH!

Jann: 35:16

And it was like, so uncomfortable. She kind of caught herself. It was like, Oh, I just meant that, you know, because there's so many things they like about Janice. That's just such a superficial thing. So.

Joi: 35:27

Clean it up. Come on wrap it up girl wrap it up clean out your desk by night by night.

Jann: 35:34

Like, thinking about it, thinking about it now, I can't do anything but laugh, but he just kind of awkwardly was like, yeah, I like that it's versatile and you know, it's different all the time. I, you know, it's cool. That was so awkward for everybody. Like, normally it's awkward for me because everybody will laugh, but everyone was looking around like, did that really just

Joi: 35:56

Am I part of the hate crowd?

Jann: 35:57

say that's. That was a unique experience in that it made everybody in the room awkward, and it was a little satisfying because of that.

Joi: 36:07

You know what that's good, though,

Jann: 36:09

back in this just like I normally have to do.

Joi: 36:12

that's what they talked about in that last book they were just like listen It's not my job to be uncomfortable because of your racism. I'm glad she got uncomfortable, and I know she didn't say some shit like that again. Especially about you.

Jann: 36:25

But the thing was, the reason I bring it up is because I had no idea that she disliked me before this, or at least didn't like my hair. she would regularly come to my desk and just sit and talk about nonsense, and I'd just drown her out while I'm doing my job. Like, you would have never known. I don't think I was being rude to her necessarily, but I would have never known that she would have done something like that. So, yeah,

Joi: 36:48

The amount of

Jas: 36:49

think that's the scary part about it. Yeah, it's very covert. And the people who are the worst are the ones who are smiling in your face and saying like nice things and like going out of their way to be nice to you in a weird, in a way that feels artificial. And you're like, okay, just please just keep your distance. Just keep your distance from me. I mean, it's, it's very obvious.

Joi: 37:14

It's like that meme with the guy, he goes, Huh, Huh.

Jann: 37:24

Yeah, yeah, like I said, I can only laugh when I think back on it, but at the time it was like a roller coaster of emotions, like first, like, oh, someone's calling out my hair in a good way. That's interesting. And then to hear her scoff like this bitch,

Joi: 37:39

I would have been petty after that. Every time I changed it

Jann: 37:41

I'm waiting for the laughter.

Joi: 37:43

I'm like, what do you think of the hair this time? Got a wig on. Straight. It's more your type. More your flavor. Yeah.

Jas: 37:52

Oh man, I would have, I would have scoffed when whoever said anything about her. I like so and so's personality.

Joi: 38:03

Were you not at the icebreaker last week? Come on. Whoa.

Jann: 38:14

Oh, man, we can laugh about it now.

Joi: 38:19

I would have been laughing then, too. All the way to the bank. I'm like, hostile work environment, baby. Ah, good times.

Jann: 38:30

It's too funny. All right. So one of the questions I had written about, um, A lot of her experiences were relatable.

Joi: 38:39

Mhhm,

Jann: 38:40

we, have talked about that a lot, but there, were there any instances that she talked about or experiences that she talked about that you related more to, more so than others?

Jas: 38:49

Yes, So, really quick story. This is my second time reading this book and the first time I read it, I remember being annoyed specifically with how she narrated it and also she had a sniffle, which I don't know if y'all picked up on the sniffle, but it was driving me freaking nuts. She'll be talking and I'm like, Oh my God, she sniffles one more time. But despite that, despite that, there was one part in the story that I felt like, yes, people need to hear this. And it stuck with me. I didn't realize that I got it from this book and that is she said in the book when you have to explain a racist event to someone and they don't believe you and they make it so like they're gaslighting you when you're saying something horrible that you went through. It's worse than actually experiencing the racism itself. And that's something that has stuck with me for years. Like I said, I read this in 2016 when it first came out and I couldn't have said that better. And that's something that I've experienced so many times. And it's way more disappointing because now You are, because you're not going to just say what something racist that happened to you to some random stranger. You're saying it to someone you care about, someone you felt like was a safe space. And when that someone gaslights you, well, are you sure you just worked on your period? Or are you sure that it was racism? They probably were having a bad day. Like, you don't even know who this person is. And you're like, So I love that she shared that story and she was able to to really spell it out like this is what it is because I've experienced it so many disappointing times and it is so true. It is worse. Been experiencing the racism.

Jann: 40:42

You know what's funny about that too, I completely agree with everything you said, and we talked about this before on this podcast and we talked about the wedding date. And we talked about Drew Nichols, even though he was toxus AF. One of his redeeming qualities was that every time she told him about something she was concerned about with racism or told him. Tell him about a racist experience. There was no, are you sure? Or maybe you're just like, it was immediately. Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me. What can I do? You know, like there was no gaslighting involved, which was a huge redeeming quality for him. So shout out to Drew Nichols.

Joi: 41:22

remembered that man's name. That was like, episode 2.

Jann: 41:27

You, of course you don't, you didn't remember it when we did the episode.

Joi: 41:32

You know, um, I did want to say one thing that I did, um... I wanted to acknowledge when she said, when she was in high school, um, when she, you know, even with her hair wasn't natural, she had it like processed and everything. And she still wasn't being noticed by like the white boys there cause she went to a predominantly white high school. And she was like, I didn't want to go to junior prom because no one was asking me, the black girl out. And I was like, Oh, and like, I didn't have that experience, but I was like, I heard it multiple times before. And, um, I'm not, it kind of broke my heart a little bit, except I keep seeing the same thing even today that there's a lot of like, um, people who don't appreciate the beautiful black girls in high schools and asking them out and things, and they feel like they're missing a huge part of their high school, You know, journey, you know?

Jas: 42:24

I think, I don't know if you read Gabrielle Union's book, where I think we're going to need more wine. And she says something very similar. She grew up in a very, she went to a very white high school and, felt very rejected because she was the only black girl and no one was asking her out.

Joi: 42:39

It's not like they were ugly, like, I'm sure if we were to look at their pictures and everything, because she was there herself, she's like, I wasn't the cute, like, the cutest kid, but, you know, I wasn't hideous. I'm like, that's not the case. You get basic bitches all the time, boyfriends in high school. You know, it just sucks you have that, you had that experience, you know? So, you know. Just wanted, that's what I

Jas: 43:01

Something that,

Joi: 43:02

hmm,

Jas: 43:03

it's funny, so really quick, Something that, that reminds me of is, I had a friend tell me that she was having trouble making friends with, you know, some people and her. Her friend circle, and I thought it was the weirdest thing because she is the friendliest person I know, like everyone who meets her loves her, and I'm like, who are these people? Like, why don't they love you? Like, it makes no sense at all. And she's Latina, and the women who weren't very like warm with her were white. And I explained to her, like, the experience that I have had is that when you are a person of color and you try to befriend a white person who is not into it because they're very afraid of the fact that you're black, they kind of keep you at arm's reach. Right. They don't, they don't say anything rude to you or they're, they're cordial with you when they have to be, but they're not going to invite you to anything. They're not going to like say, Hey, what, what is your thoughts on this topic? They just want you to like just be there. And they'll be the first ones to call out like, Hey, I have a friend of color. But that's it. That's your only purpose of being there. which, you know, she had the whole part of this book that was about how do you know when you're the token, the token black friend? and that reminds me, that reminds me of that when you say that joy because it is a very weird phenomenon and it's hard to describe it because They didn't exactly do anything to you, but you do notice that they're a lot friendlier and more vocal and warmer with these other women who are more reserved than you are and they just happen. So yeah, that's unfortunate and it just plays out in the dating scene as well. That's what it reminded me of.

Joi: 44:55

mm hmm,

Jann: 45:01

Okay, well, any other, uh, questions or topics you guys were just burning to talk about that I didn't bring up?

Joi: 45:12

Something I did want to mention that I, I don't know how I feel about it, just, I like, once I figured out she was a podcaster. I feel like the book itself was like almost a big podcast. Like they could have been completely separate podcasts, the different chapters of the book. And I was like, that's kind of cute. Like I like it. Like it seems like a really long podcast. I feel like I'm listening to, I don't normally listen to single woman podcasts though. Like it's usually. Back and forth. So I was like a long podcast, you know, that

Jann: 45:45

so. The way I thought about it was not necessarily like a podcast, but like a standup comedy routine. That's what it read as for me. Like she's went through different stories and kind of made jokes of her everyday life. Yeah. And she even said, I think, now that I think about it like that, like, this was a conversation, just like in stand up comedy, like, it's a conversation, even though I'm the only one talking. Like, yeah, I guess. So, yeah, that's interesting. It definitely didn't feel like other memoirs, to your point, Joy.

Joi: 46:16

it didn't feel like a self help book either, like the last one we've done, it's somewhere in the middle.

Jas: 46:23

I,

Jann: 46:24

stats in this book.

Jas: 46:28

one thing I will say about her, her delivery, although I think all three of us agree it was a little annoying, but there's still some parts of her that I really liked. I liked that she let her free flag fly. And I'm like, Oh, you're telling me all the things that you have no shame about. Okay. I already feel really close to you. So I feel like that's something that kind of worked, worked for her, like she's weird. And once you get past that, like, okay, you're weird. I get it. We can just keep moving on. But one part I wanted to call out that I actually liked and I wasn't expecting to like it, I kind of had my guard up, was her friend that she had write the note, her white friend, the white guy who wrote the notes for me. And I'm like,

Jann: 47:13

goodness.

Jas: 47:14

you put a white dude on a book called Don't Touch My Hair, I don't know how this is going to go. But it was actually really good. He talked about how he never thought of something he does as white. And it

Jann: 47:31

It was offended.

Jas: 47:35

yeah. But I liked how he talked through like, here are things in white history that you can be proud of, but I'm not going to give credit to any white rappers. And I'm not, you're a smart person. I'm not going to tell you why that is. And I just, I liked, I liked his whole, it was a very respectful piece and I enjoyed it a lot. I

Jann: 47:55

Yeah. And can I just say when he started off that story talking about an artisan mayo shop, my thoughts were, that's the whitest shit I have ever heard. And then the fact that his black friend was like, that's the whitest thing I've ever done. Yes. Okay. I'm not alone in that.

Jas: 48:15

like, is this for real? Is there such a thing as an artisanal mayo shop?

Joi: 48:19

sure there is. I'm sure. Go to your local gentrified neighborhood, and I'm sure you'll find one or two.

Jas: 48:27

Who loves mayo that much? Jesus.

Jann: 48:30

I'm gonna Google it.

Joi: 48:32

Why is this a question? Maybe it was like one of those unspoken things, I'm like, I will put it on a sandwich. But don't tell me that it's there. Like, I will gag.

Jann: 48:45

there are shops. The first one I pulled up is in Brooklyn, but, yeah, there are artisanal mayonnaise shops.

Jas: 48:53

Wow.

Joi: 48:55

now we just have to go.

Jann: 48:58

No.

Jas: 48:59

Yeah, I have no interest in going to an artisanal Where do you put in your mayo on? Like what is this besides like tuna fish, egg salad, and a sandwich? What, where else could you possibly be putting mayo

Joi: 49:12

I bet they have one

Jann: 49:13

I could use whipped salad dressing,

Joi: 49:15

Oh, yeah,

Jann: 49:16

eww.

Joi: 49:17

let's start cutie boy with the mayo different males

Jas: 49:23

Ew.

Joi: 49:23

They had a butter one i'm sure there's a mayo one i'm sure of it

Jas: 49:28

Butter makes sense. Butter is delicious in all flavors.

Jann: 49:34

Alright, I think we're regressing guys.

Jas: 49:36

Oh, sorry.

Jann: 49:39

So, after the conversation, is anybody changing their rating?

Joi: 49:44

I think i'll bump it up to a three. I like the book. It was just the The annoying little bits that it just kind of like gave me an off putting feeling sometimes about it, you know But I can't give anything more than that just because like the books I really like i've given fours and five on here so I can't do that.

Jann: 50:07

fair. I think mine would stay at a three, and the reason, I guess I never really got into the reasoning for why I gave it a three. I gave it a three because again, I feel like she should have did the good hair documentary. Like if she did that documentary as a book, I would have been completely happy if that's all it was. but I did listen to the audio book and I feel like I would have liked it a little bit more if I had read it because of the tone. and that's a huge experience for me reading the books or like listening to a book is the tone of the narrator. So if I don't like it. and is not the person who actually wrote the book, who wrote the book that's narrating. Sometimes I'll just turn it off and like read the actual book because I want to be fair in my rating and if it's annoying me then I'm not going to be. But you know, it's her book, it's her thought, so.

Jas: 50:52

Yeah.

Joi: 50:53

Agreed.

Jas: 50:54

I agree. I give it a, I'm keeping mine the same 3. 5. And I think this was her first book that she wrote. She's since written three more books and I liked her enough. Well, well, so this is her first book. My first blog post was trash. So I'm going to just throw that out there. Like good on her. She wrote a book. It was her first one. Despite the things that annoyed me, I still recommend this book to people because she has some things in it that still stick with me years later. So it did have an impact on me. and I, it made me like her for it. And she's weird in some ways that I am not, but you know what? I love the complexity that it gives more black people. She's a blurred all day. And she is not afraid to talk about that. so yeah, I keep it at a 3. 5.

Joi: 51:47

Alright!

Jann: 51:50

Yeah. Okay. Well that about wraps up this conversation. let's talk about our book next week, which is the Violin Conspiracy. One second. I'll give you a synopsis.

Joi: 52:09

I can do some violin music while we wait. Do do do, zhu zhu, zhu

Jann: 52:15

Okay. You already messed up. That's

Joi: 52:16

Alright. Zhu zhu zhu, zhu zhu zhu

Jann: 52:21

That's not violin music.

Joi: 52:23

zhu zhu

Jann: 52:25

want you to know that it's not.

Joi: 52:27

zhu

Jas: 52:28

Violins go, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo.

Joi: 52:32

La la la la la la la

Jann: 52:34

goes

Joi: 52:39

You got it, you got it, Jared. Perfect. Keep

Jann: 52:42

I thought so. All right, cool.

Joi: 52:48

it.

Jann: 52:48

All right, enough.

Joi: 52:49

Giggling. Coughing.

Jann: 52:49

Come on now. A mystery about a black classical musician whose family heirloom violin is stolen on the eve of the most prestigious classical music competition in the world. Ray MacMillan loves playing the violin more than anything, and nothing will stop him from pursuing his dream of becoming a professional musician. Not his mother, who thinks he should get a real job. Not the fact that he can't afford a high caliber violin. Not the racism inherent in the classical music world. And when he makes the startling discovery that his great grandfather's fiddle is actually a priceless strav Devarvius, Stradivarius, his star begins to rise, Stradivarius,

Jas: 53:30

Oh

Jann: 53:30

star begins to rise. Jasmine, shut up. I'm trying to read it. Enough, Joyce, shut up.

Jas: 53:50

Joy,

Jann: 53:51

How many other

Jas: 53:52

ignorant. Joy's laugh is ignorant.

Jann: 53:55

it's very ignorant.

Joi: 54:01

I just feel like Jen went to pull out a metal chair on Jazz for a second there.

Jann: 54:05

up, Joy! Can I continue? Christ! All right. Can you at least mute yourself, asshole? Now Jasmine was a Stradivarius? All right. All right. A priceless Stradivarius. His star begins to rise. Then with the international... Oh, fuck. Is it Tchaikovsky?

Joi: 54:39

You told us to shut the fuck up so I'm figuring it out.

Jann: 54:59

Joy, I'm trying to get off of this recording. Now mute yourself immediately before I murder you. And Jasmine unmute yourself and tell me how to say it.

Joi: 55:08

Never, never, never,

Jann: 55:09

don't know shit about how to pronounce shit, but she won't shut up

Jas: 55:15

Can you, I didn't hear, can you try to say it

Jann: 55:18

Joy mute yourself. Yes, it is Fuck way to go the international Tchaikovsky competition. I'm gonna say Tchaikovsky it starts with the T

Jas: 55:40

Oh,

Jann: 55:42

All right, I'm continuing

Jas: 55:43

okay.

Jann: 55:45

Then with the International Tschikowsky Competition, the Olympics of the classical music, fast approaching, his prized family heirloom is stolen. Ray is determined to get it back, but now his family and the descendants of the man who once enslaved Ray's great grandfather are each claiming that the violin belongs to them. With the odds stacked against him and the pressure mounting, will Ray ever see his violin again? Alright, so that is The Violin Conspiracy by Brendan Slocum that we'll be reading next week.

Joi: 56:14

Mmm.

Jas: 56:15

quick. A Stradivarius violin, the most expensive Stradivarius violin is worth 20 million dollars. for reference. They are very expensive.

Joi: 56:26

what's so special about them?

Jas: 56:28

They're handcrafted. Oh, I'll, we can get into it, but they're the most expensive violin and there are movies based. There are several movies about Stradivarius violins. Um, so yeah, they're a thing.

Jann: 56:43

First I'm hearing of it, but I'm excited to read it because it's actually her second thriller that we've ever read on the podcast. So,

Joi: 56:49

I'm a, I'm a band girl. I love my clarinet. But violin, I love violin, to like listen to violin. So I'm excited to read this book.

Jann: 56:59

I would dare you to play one note on a violin, on a clarinet, and I will give you a hundred dollars.

Joi: 57:05

girl, I can play you a whole song on Twanko Twanko. The ants come marching in.

Jann: 57:13

Not the twinkle, twinkle.

Joi: 57:20

Pull out your wallets. I got

Jann: 57:27

and on that note, we're gonna wrap it up for today. Jazz, do you want to let everybody know where they can find you?

Jas: 57:33

Yeah. You can find me on my blog, blogging money life. And that's at blogging money life on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. Tick tock and you can go to our blog blog money life. com

Jann: 57:48

And YouTube. You didn't mention that one.

Jas: 57:50

and you too. Of course. I'm a youtuber Yes, you can find us on youtube And we have videos about our journey moving from the united states to costa rica As well as tips on how to grow your blog and make money

Jann: 58:02

What day do you have your lives? Um, Q and A's on.

Jas: 58:06

I do a live blog and q a the last wednesday of every month

Jann: 58:11

All right. So if you guys want blogging tips, make sure you tune in. Enjoy where can they find us?

Joi: 58:17

on TikTok and Twitter, we're Black Girl Reads Pod. The black is spelled BLK. Be okay girl reads pod And on instagram where black girl reads podcast So add that cast but it still be okay at the beginning

Jann: 58:36

All right. Thanks everybody for joining. This was a great conversation.