Church Psychology

The Number One Phrase to Improve Small Talk

• Narrative Resources, LLC • Season 1 • Episode 20

Share episode

Ever wondered why small talk, often considered trivial and mundane, can be so significant in establishing deep connections? Buckle up as my co-host, Matt and I, traverse the intriguing landscape of casual chatter, underpinned by an insightful article that captures its appeal and engagement in conversations. We shed light on how to leverage small talk, not just as an ice-breaker, but as a powerful tool to forge meaningful relationships. 

Taking cues from the wisdom of CS Lewis, we explore humility as the cornerstone of Christian life and its role in fostering heartfelt conversations. By sprinkling empathy and curiosity into chats, we demonstrate how it's possible to build significant relationships without the crutch of shared interests. We also reveal the underplayed potency of ‘mind-reading’ in conversations - an art that makes others feel acknowledged and understood. As we dissect these elements, it becomes evident that small talk holds the potential to be a game-changer in our interactions. So, join us and learn to embrace the transformative power vested in everyday conversations.

Show Notes:

Speaker 1:

Hey my friends, dr David Hall here with Church Psychology. In today's episode Matt had got us talking about an article that he had recently come across about the psychology of small talk and specifically, what are the things that make small talk engaging and effective as a building block of connecting with other people? I think oftentimes will be dismissive of small talk. I feel even in my thinking in the past I've been dismissive of small talk as unimportant. But we get into an interesting conversation about just the meaning of how we step out of ourselves in conversation and how winsome and appealing that can really be to other people and in the context of being fruitful and good in our relationships. I think it was a good conversation, so hope you join us for that. We're going to slide into that intro music now. Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute.

Speaker 2:

We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science and the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you are finding us and also leave us a review as we continue to talk about the importance of the community. We are going to be talking about the importance of the community. Please like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you are finding us and also leave us a review as we start. If we are to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work. Welcome everybody back to the Church Psychology podcast. I'm Matt Schooniman. I'm here again with Dr David Hall. Hey, David.

Speaker 1:

Hello, matt, hope you're back, hope people are back to this or, if this is your first time, welcome, welcome to episode 20.

Speaker 2:

2-0 everybody. That is a double. Let's double digits for a while.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's been double digits for a while, but it's another. It's another ranking. It feels, like a good yeah, it is Well a lot of podcasts. You know, a very common thing in podcasts is this thing called pod fading, where people do a few episodes and just sort of fades out and we're not as well we're already well past that, because we are just so thrilled to listen to ourselves talk.

Speaker 2:

Like you said in the past episode, you were like who is this?

Speaker 1:

Is this Bozo?

Speaker 2:

Bozo. That's on the radio. Listen to us radio.

Speaker 1:

Who actually?

Speaker 2:

listens to radio anymore.

Speaker 1:

My car turns it on sometimes, like sometimes not all the times, but sometimes, if I'm just taking a call and get off it, I'd be like, oh, you want to listen to the radio now? I'm like no.

Speaker 2:

What radio?

Speaker 1:

station does it go to. It's like talk radios that's on right now or something like that, which one? Which one I can't remember.

Speaker 2:

It will define you of your political leaning.

Speaker 1:

Well it's, but I didn't say it. It's what was there in the car.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, so typically typically, as Matt jokes, it's oftentimes, you know I've come in with an agenda to our episodes, but you know that it you know something I was thinking about and Matt and I will discuss episode topics beforehand, but I will more often than not be the one that pitches something. But the upshot of that is, you know, I have the one that also has to research and plan the episode of like, okay, what is this going to be? And Matt sent me this article the other day.

Speaker 2:

Well, actually, I posted the article somewhere, or put it somewhere. You saw it and then you were like we should do that and I was like that's great, yeah. So, to be fair to you, you pitched it as an idea, sure, but I did not have the forethought to be like we should talk about this.

Speaker 1:

You know. So, yeah, I appreciate that You're correct in that, and so you know what's the article about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, I read randomly just on the Apple news app an article, and I think it was also through CNBC, I can't remember. But there is this researcher writer from Stanford, I think his name is Matt Abrams, but he wrote an article said the number one phrase people who are good at small talk always use and this says Stanford public speaking expert. And so basically I know, yeah, but in a sense I looked at it and it started to discuss the aspect of like what are ways that small talk works? Or like what kind of captures people's ability to kind of feel, essentially be feeling like seen or heard in a conversation and not just be kind of surface level the whole time. And you know, I think he's writing from a perspective of probably business connection and even relationships, of friendships and family relationships. And so it was a short article but it made us think, I think, on a really good topic of like, whether it's small talk or conversation, but what's really there.

Speaker 1:

And so yeah, and I'm very interested to kind of unpack some of that with you and the link, the article being the show notes. But before we get into that, I'm trying to set this habit. I've skipped a few episodes because I always just kind of want to do a, an additional reminder for people, for those who appreciate this podcast. You want to support us. We're not asking for your money at this point. We might in the future, but we don't have a page yet yet. But the biggest way that you can support us is to connect with us in our free community library, which is part of the Negev Institute. If you go to the podcast website, churchpsychologyorg, you can get your free. It looks like a library card and what that does is it gives you access to specific trainings that we put out for free. We've got a few on there at the time of recording around social media. It also is an automatic connection to our email list. There's nothing paid in this, but it's just a way that we can reach out to you directly.

Speaker 1:

As we have new episodes come out as different articles, we really wanted this podcast to be part of community conversations and to really want to include people in those community conversations. That's the best way that you can support us right now is just letting us kind of connect with you in that way. So again, churchpsychologyorg, sign up for your free community library access. It is completely free and there's certain content that we're going to put out. That's out there now and we'll continue to put out. That is exclusive to that free membership. So please check it out again, churchpsychologyorg.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, thanks for sharing that. And so small talk, small talk, the one thing that I think a lot of people fear. Well, actually that and deep talk, actually no but there's a level to which? How? How, at least, did this writer conclude? What is the number one phrase? And to not pull that tension any further, the number one phrase that he says is most helpful is the phrase tell me more.

Speaker 1:

Tell me more, man.

Speaker 2:

I will. There is so thinking of that phrase. When you have conversations with somebody and they are explaining something about whatever their work, their kids, their life, and you offer the phrase or someone has offered you the phrase of tell me more, like hey, tell yeah, what's that like? Or tell me more about that, and you start going deeper. I think there's a level to which we feel I can't think of the word. Maybe it's important, it's-.

Speaker 1:

I feel like we matter to the other person.

Speaker 2:

We matter to the other person exactly, and so he broke it down into two phrases and I'm kind of using his stuff and then I think we should go deeper into some of the things that our counseling work has taught us in conversation. But he broke it down into two things. If there are supportive responses and there's shift responses, what he talks about as supportive responses are these things that support what the other person is saying, and so it's any kind of language in a conversation that you are continuing that person to go, whether deeper or further into what is being talked about, even if it's whatever UT football, like we're talking about Go Vols, go Vols. What's going on there? Like to ask, maybe tell me more, is one phrase and you can tell me more about that. And if you overuse that, that could probably be annoying to the other person. But I think of even like kind of curiosity phrases of how long have you been watching the Vols, or what does this mean to you, or whatever that kind of conversation that is supporting their convert. What they're saying to you is the most effective for small talk to be good, or that people that are good at it are doing that.

Speaker 2:

What shuts down conversations, and I don't know if he uses that language, but in a sense of how I read it is what shuts down conversations are on. The opposite of. That is what's called a shift response. It's the statement that shifts the conversation back to you. So we're talking about UT football and talking about the Vols, and the focus of the conversation at start is this person's telling me about, oh, they just went to the game and how much fun there was and all that stuff. If I shift the response to be like, oh yeah, well, I went to a game back then and it was a lot of fun, the conversation essentially dies until someone else brings up another topic.

Speaker 2:

And so often I think what happens when we have small talk conversations is that we get nervous and the only thing that we really have any kind of expertise on is our self, and so then we use that self knowledge to then add to the conversation, almost like we have to deposit into this bank, and if we don't do it enough, then the conversation dies.

Speaker 2:

But that will essentially kill it and it makes the person feel like a less seen, less heard, less known, and so those two things that's maybe new language. It was new language to me to even look at it as supportive responses and shift responses, but I thought that was a good way to maybe break apart what it's like when we have conversation, and the way I'm thinking about this is not so much with as much with people that we know really well, but maybe more in. Let's say, you have to go to some fundraising event or some church gathering and you're around a lot of people that you haven't really talked to much, and so you're sitting at a table with pseudo strangers and how do you carry on conversation there? And I've felt this in both ways.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what struck me in considering it, seeing the article as you posted it and I've said I think I've even said in this podcast before that I have a difficulty with small talk, but the more I kind of thought about it, that's not true. In fact I do small talk all the time. I don't like empty talk in the sense that I don't like really talking about things that feel really shallow. Shallow and unimportant or uninteresting to me. And even shallows is the thing. Like lots of things can be shallow and could be fine, but I don't wanna for anybody who I have in my life to any meaningful way. I don't wanna just talk about it. You bring up sports or something like that.

Speaker 1:

I've got two nephews that are really into sports and if I let them, every conversation we talk about could be about sports. And I don't. For two reasons. One I don't know most about what they're talking about, so that keeps me from participating fully in the conversation. Because they're bringing up baseball players or things like that and I'm not a real sports guy and, like I can, my level of knowledge is much more limited than theirs is, so I can't participate.

Speaker 1:

That's one reason, but the other is is like I wanna talk about other things about them, and so I think sometimes we'll have this idea that talk can be shallow or deep and like deep is good and shallow is bad. And I don't necessarily think that's the case. Even in counseling you can go too deep too quickly in counseling conversations and you're starting a new relationship with somebody. You've gotta figure out and that's part of the skill of a good counselor how to not waste time or be trivial. But sometimes we've gotta walk into something not at full speed because of the level of trust and there could be lots of things to learn from kind of the initial more shallow conversations before you go deep. Somebody who has to have a deep conversation about everything that can feel like an exhausting relationship, that everything is just so weighty all the time. So I found this, you know, just really interesting to kind of consider just how we engage with other people.

Speaker 2:

But you know one of the things. So you brought up the concept of your nephew's really enjoying sports, and sometimes it feels uncomfortable to have conversation about it mainly because you don't know much about it. I like the idea of like switching the topic that you're not all about, you're not only sports. To me, like I want to know these other parts of your life, but one part. One thing I've realized, even in my work with adolescents and teens and counseling that I've found has been very helpful in building rapport and connection with the other person, is to talk about things that they really enjoy, but oftentimes I don't know much about it. So, for instance, when I have a teenager in my office that is really into gaming, there's aspects of gaming that I understand like maybe back in the day I would do that some, but I've been disconnected from that world over the past probably ten years or so, and so a lot's happened over the ten years as it relates to video games, but they'll get onto a topic of this. And one thing I've learned and this is part of that curiosity piece again is that when, like I am curious about their world, even if I don't understand it, but trying to understand it, not from a place of frustration, trying to understand it. But, like true curiosity, it's amazing to see how much they will open up with you when they can be an expert on something towards another person, and I think that that's.

Speaker 2:

I think that carries on into the conversations with other people that we may not know very well. In essence, they are the experts on their life and you want to get to know them. You have to open the doors for them to share their life, and I think that's through curiosity. So you know, tell me more about, like, that thing you just said about that game. You know, like, oh, who is that person that you keep playing as? Like, what's so special about them to you? Like, like, just keep the curious conversation going. It would be amazing how much information about them you get and the built of trust that happens between the two of you.

Speaker 1:

You talk, matt, about the, the idea of the importance for all of us and wanting to be seen, and I think that's something that's really and we don't have to be seen in the deepest ways all the time, but just the sense of like, hey, this thing that managed to me.

Speaker 2:

Seen. And for the highly analytical, technical person, that doesn't just mean like visually, sure, like we're talking about, like known. Yeah, there's a part of me deeper below the surface that has been tapped on in a way of like. I see that part of you in a good way, like sometimes we hide those pieces through shame, but there's some of those parts of us that were like man. I just wish someone would know that about me, and when they are, it feels great.

Speaker 1:

We have a work colleague, matt and I, who is he's. His inclination is to be an enthusiast about a few different things, but one of his particular things is fishing and we were at a work retreat up in the Smoky Mountains, real close to where we work, and there was flowing water and opportunity to fish and this person wanted to fish and he did fish successfully and later I stayed in that place longer and we did like a day retreat but my wife and I were staying there and the next day he texted me you are you fishing?

Speaker 2:

and.

Speaker 1:

I'm like, no, I go, it doesn't tickle my endorphins like it does for you, I go. But I love people who love to fish and there's kind of this like solidarity, nod, like okay, yeah, and because it's true, like and I go on fishing trips and I don't really care that much about fishing and it really is, I think, part of my brain structure, like what it might get awoken at some point in my life, but it's not there at this point in my 40s. Because I see it. I see when people discover fishing, know that they'll get, so into it and they'll get, you know it's, it's really, it can be a real thing for them. And I'll go.

Speaker 1:

I go on these fishing trips every so often to Alaska with a group of friends and I'll do a little bit of fishing up there, because that's what it's for, like, where we're on the river for days, and so I'll put a you know a pollin once or twice during the week, but not much more than that. I'm really just kind of there for the ride and and it confuses a lot of people they're like, well, why don't you do this then? And I'm like I enjoy you guys, I enjoy being out here in this and I'm okay to be like the uh, the fishing companion, and what did you call yourself the other day?

Speaker 2:

was it the Sherpa, the Sherpa, yeah, like I'm just kind of and it's, it's, and.

Speaker 1:

But I find that people aren't put off generally, that I don't, I'm not into fishing it.

Speaker 2:

It does sometimes redirect how conversations go because I'm I can only speak the lingo, so much yeah, and I like what you're saying, because in the there is somewhat of an assumption in dialogue with another person and this is, you know, this is also as it relates to trying to build relationships with new people that there's this assumption that I have to find someone that carries the same likes, desires, whatever that I do, and and and and. To be fair, that does help. Sometimes it does kind of kick start the, the relationship to be like oh, you like that too. Oh yeah, have you seen this like in the kind of back and forth thing happens? Um, but as we're talking about here it's, it doesn't have to be there for a relationship to be built.

Speaker 2:

You could be coming from different everything political, religious, like that would be tough, but like you could come from these different spectrums and if there's still curiosity within the space and there's other. There's two other things I want to say about this. It's not just curiosity, but curiosity such a big piece, but there's curiosity there to learn from the other person, like relationships can be built and so. But I think we always enter into new relationships or new meetings with other people with this assumption that I have to find that common ground, and sometimes we can't find it, or we're too afraid to look for it, and so we never actually move deeper or closer to another person mm-hmm, I think that common ground met.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes the common ground could just be like I'm willing to give you care and attention as a person, and personally it's one of the things I find very motivating in doing work as a counselor is that I'm interested in lots of different things, but ultimately what I find the most interesting is people, and that's a commonality so many people bring and I will approach them in their hobbies and kind of the small talky sorts of conversations, and there's certain ones I can engage in more easily than others. But yeah, and I think the other thing you just brought up meant about being curious, because I think sometimes we'll assume like, why don't like that thing? Yeah, and it's like, well, or I'm not interested in that thing or I don't know anything about that thing, and but maybe you do, or maybe you know more than you think, or maybe yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and are you open to learn or listen about it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah and are you okay? And so it's just not being the expert in this conversation, because then I know a lot of times people will shift the conversation because they don't feel like they can shine quite in the same way, and that makes them uncomfortable. And so the shift response becomes like, okay, let's go to this other thing that I can feel more comfortable in.

Speaker 2:

And then it's posturing, it's peacocking, it's whatever you want to call it. Like. It's this sense of like I'm measuring up to you in certain ways and I think you know, even though we may not be able to put words to all that we can feel it when the conversation shifts in certain ways to where I feel like I'm being like, measured against.

Speaker 2:

And that's very difficult to carry on stuff. You know, I even had a thought. If anybody's listening to this in single and trying to figure out how to like build relationships that way is. These things are going to be very valuable to you to build a relationship. If you can make the conversation about the other person and growing the knowledge of that person, it's going to go well.

Speaker 1:

And do it with genuine empathy.

Speaker 2:

That's right, which is tough but important.

Speaker 1:

You know I think of there's the character of Andy from the TV show the Office. When he's first introduced he's using all these ploys of like. This is how you know from the business social manuals of like use the person's name a lot, you know, shake their hand extra long, look directly into their eye and that's to can work to a certain degree on paper, but there's a genuineness that I think that really matters. Like you can make a lot of things work clumsily, in conversation or things like that, if you care. And caring doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be this perfectly sanctified person in this moment and to talk about the context of shared life, say it like in a church community, there are any number of people that you're going to be sitting around or going to events with, or things like that, that you may not have a lot in common with, you may have a hard time enjoying them.

Speaker 1:

And then the challenge is how do I do this? And I think sometimes we have this pressure that I've got to like everybody to make this work, and even this is something I say to counselors. There can be a lot of pressure that counselors feel that they need to like all their clients and at least how I teach it, I'm like I don't think that's a requirement. You've got to want their good, you have to be willing to make their good and their growth or priority in the space Whether you like them or not feels kind of morally neutral to me. I like broccoli, I don't like asparagus. I may be in situations where I need to eat asparagus, but whether I like it is not the moral issue, and people aren't food. There are any number of things that you will find naturally attractive in another person that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their character, and there are things that you're going to find difficult about being with other people. That may not represent any fault of theirs, it's just a preference.

Speaker 2:

And how do we?

Speaker 1:

And I think some of the where I'm musing on the small talk idea, man is how do we kind of even step past ourselves? Because you talk about the idea of like, making the other person more central and I do think that's part of it so the other person can feel like they matter, but the idea of even just stepping out of one cell, I think that is so impactful, and so there are two things that I think to glean from One that we learn in graduate schools.

Speaker 2:

It relates to how to carry it, it's like the basic skills of counseling I want to just kind of touch on for just a second Is the concept of like open-ended questions, and some people may recognize that phrase and understand it some part. But one thing that was kind of honed in on when it first started learning this practice is how do you ask really good questions, and the difference between open-ended and closed-ended is, in a sense, what elicits a response from the other person to carry the conversation on, or is it shut down, and so an example would be like I'll use this, I'll use you, david, as a. You talked about asparagus and broccoli. A closed-ended question would be like do you like asparagus? No, I won't do it, okay. So see, it's like conversation's over.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Right, Whereas I could maybe say the phrase of like what don't you like about Asparagus?

Speaker 1:

I can't answer no to that, and that's what, or I could. But when it makes sense, and so it invites more, it invites more, and that's the openness of it, yeah, yeah, and so like yeah, go ahead. Well, none of that matters. But Asparagus, I'm like the flavor doesn't really work for me. Yeah, I don't feel, like I don't feel it makes things better.

Speaker 2:

And so here's where curiosity would come into play. It's like, well, what vegetables? This is such a wild conversation I'd be like this is so boring. But like, what vegetables do you like? And so again, that's a curious open-ended question. Yeah, you know. So it kind of it keeps the conversation going. I think a lot of times people in infnervousness and anxiety of meeting a new person or having that conversation will kind of naturally fall to these closed-ended questions where we say do you like this, what's you know? Are you going to here tomorrow? What do you, you know, like that kind of stuff? That just it doesn't elicit that kind of thing. The other concept and I don't, do you have anything to you would add to the open-ended question paradigm.

Speaker 1:

No, it's just the going back to, to riff on the theme about not being self-centric in it, and so some of the temptation towards closed questions is we're trying to control the outcome, we're trying to. An open-ended question invites the other person to decide where they want to go in the conversation and we have to be comfortable with that.

Speaker 2:

You have to allow it to go, yeah Right, exactly Well, and you keep bringing up this thing of being others-centered in it, and the concept that I was also thinking about was just this phrase of the empathic listener, or like listening with empathy, and so I was doing some research on it and I found this article that kind of broke it down into three words that helped elicit what is empathic listening, and the first one was humility. And this is, to a sense, what you keep bringing to the table is I'm committing to meeting the conversation where the partner is, or whoever I'm talking to, where they are, without expectations. I'm not expecting this, I'm not, and so often I think too in like business-type conversations where we're trying to sell something you know, like I'm trying to pull the conversation to a place of where they agree with me or a line in my and even at times in conversations. This is sometimes a stress as it relates to conversations people have with, maybe, church leaders or pastoral staff. In that kind of sense, you're always kind of waiting for the ask or something that this person is wanting to you to do to help them, and so it's without expectation or any of that stuff, and so you have to kind of release this sense of assuming that the conversation is going to turn back to me, and so humility is a crucial part.

Speaker 2:

The second one is curiosity, and we've talked a lot about that. You know, I'm learning about topic ideas of a person that I don't really have maybe interest or expertise in, but how can I learn, as they are maybe, an expert of this thing? So curiosity, and then I'll let you respond to some of these, david. And then, lastly, is actually empathy. We've talked about that phrase and so you know I want to maybe highlight it for a minute, but empathy really is the sense of I am focusing on the feelings, experiences, reactions of the person. It's less about what I feel, but trying to imagine what they are feeling or learning what they are feeling.

Speaker 2:

Again, curiosity, sometimes, I think, with empathy, we have shared experience where, like we've talked about this on the podcast, I'm pretty sure, but the loss of my mom in 2010, when I talk with people who have lost a parent, you know sooner than they wanted, you know, and that happens with most parents, but especially kind of like when you're young I have an empathy in the sense of a shared experience, like I definitely know, to a level, similar feelings and thoughts that this person has. I don't know it perfectly because they're a different person, but I know some of it. Now I don't know what it's like to hold a level of trauma towards a related thing, like abuse or war trauma or something like that. I don't have that. What I can do is try to learn their emotions and try to understand and feel them the same way. I don't know what to say about empathy but, in the process.

Speaker 2:

that's some of the things that I've learned in the counseling process that I would love to share. Now, obviously, some of these things you're not going to do with like a first meeting with somebody, but just to hold conversation, if you want it to go deeper, is to hold these three things of humility, curiosity and empathy. But, david, what do you think about that?

Speaker 1:

I think all of that sounds good. Good, the humility bit as the first piece. As we were talking about that, it made me think of an unparaphase in CS Lewis out of mere Christianity, because he kind of unpacks humility as one of the main virtues of Christian life in that book and saying that one of the marks of somebody who's humble is you don't really think that much about them being humble. Humility, and its true sense, doesn't really draw attention to itself like, oh, that person's so humble. It may be that if someone else makes a comment and be like, oh, have you noticed how like a humble mat is that you feel like, yeah, I really do. But it's in its unremarkableness that humility really happens, because it's this idea of it's not really this fawning posturing, to use the word that you used earlier sort of thing. It goes back to this point of a truly humble person doesn't feel very self-involved and not in a self-loathing or not really caring for yourself sort of way, though that is an extreme that people can go to. They seem less concerned than they do with you or with whoever else they're interacting with. It's a service kind of mindset.

Speaker 1:

And with that being the first one, the other two points I think just lead really well into it, like if you are not overly focused on yourself, that naturally leads into curiosity I'm not just thinking about what's the next thing I'm going to say, what's the next thing I'm really engaged with you. Then it's in a more naturalistic sort of way. It's gonna lead to like, huh, I don't really know much about that, tell me more about this. And in that. And then moving from the curiosity, the empathy, I think it does, as we're truly listening and engaging with that other person.

Speaker 1:

And again, it's not that ourselves aren't present, because for empathy, part of how we empathize, well, as we kind of cross reference in our mind the experiences or perspectives or opinions that other people are giving us with our own experiences you know lived experiences, perspective, values and sometimes that will bring in the natural point of the conversation like huh, like I don't know what that's like really. But this is my point of reference and that's something I often times will do in counseling because, as you highlighted, that you may have clients that have interest or hobbies that you know next to nothing about, and I certainly have that in teenagers, precisely that, and I really do try to engage with them and I try to really be curious and the benefit of living the age that we do is I, you know I can Wikipedia things, and I do because you know clients will talk about a show or they're really into anime or they're really into you know something. Yeah, and I can at least get a encyclopedic entry level of knowledge into it pretty quickly, yeah.

Speaker 1:

But then I'll begin thinking about like you know I, you know they're. They're, as they delve into things about their own lives and their own experiences. I'll say, look, I don't know what this is like and I'll be very upfront with that. I don't know what it's like, but here's what I imagine it's like. And then imagine he's being informed by my own experiences.

Speaker 1:

I'm thinking about, I think about this a lot when I'm sitting with people who are parents and I'm not a parent, but I do try to think about my relationships with others, with family members, and how I would imagine feeling that and often expressing that to them, even though I'm using myself and my own story as a cross-reference helps them feel heard Because I'll be like man. You know, I don't know what it's like. You were mentioning with your daughter and her dealing with food issues you go without knowing her milk allergy and we were talking about that in a, in a hopefully positive listening experience. What I can imagine saying at some point and be like yo. That sounds so rough. I can't imagine what that feels like I. Here's what I think about.

Speaker 1:

I just think about like the fear of like here's this person who I care so much about, and she can't communicate to me what's going on, but clearly something's wrong and myself helplessness in that, and I'm. What's giving me those words is I'm just imagining myself in that situation. Exactly yeah, and so what?

Speaker 2:

that elicits in me, as you share it, is the ability to feel heard or seen. And then when I hear those things, so even as you say it like just from you know, we've known each other for years now but for you saying that, that I attached to the word fear that you shared by saying, I imagine the fear that you have, like fear stuck out to me and like that's it. Yes, like I I did, I felt I kind of felt afraid of this thing, you know. So like it makes me want to go deeper with you of of that acknowledgement of something that I don't always attach to. You know, like I wasn't like ready to say to you oh, I felt afraid, but you kind of helped pull it out of me in that sense. And so obviously I understand, as people listen to this, they're like, yeah, but you guys are trained counselors, you know, you do it all the time and all this stuff and true, and it doesn't. It does mean that we're fair. It's fair.

Speaker 1:

And it doesn't have to be an. I want to even highlight, as Matt was reflecting to I, you, you do not have to mind read to do this. Well, exactly, you just have to imagine and be curious, because there was. Matt highlighted a word that I said that he attached to and that kind of pulled that out. But that wasn't the only word I said, that was just the one that resonated with them. And you can say many things and it may be of the 10, you know, emotion based words that you decide to use one, yeah, draws them out and that's okay. That's all, that's all that's required, yeah, so you don't have to. In fairness to one of the reasons that Matt and I are fairly good at this is just because we're practice. It's not because we have necessarily an ability that other people don't have, but you do every. You know if you drive, I'm pretty competent in driving large vehicles, but if I was a truck driver, I'd be more competent just because I would do it all the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and and through the practice, though. Here's one thing that I would say is that I don't know if I could say this well, the practice comes, though, from also. There's kind of in this profession you have you have to commit to it, otherwise you do poor work, but it's making the conversation about the other person. There is, like in most of the conversations that I have throughout the day that are counseling related. Obviously you have to have an like. You must make the conversation about the client right, like it's not about you, the therapist, and so that, I think, is even the sense of practice, is making this about what am I learning from this person and walking with them through?

Speaker 2:

Now, I don't necessarily carry that into my normal conversations, because I can't treat every conversation as like. My goal is to walk with you through X, y and Z. Now, everyone wants me to be their therapist. Call my wife, she'll tell you, but what I think I have carried into small talk that's worked. You know, whether I'm sitting at a table with people I don't know, is these principles of making the conversation about them, and it has worked. It's been really cool to watch. I want to give us. Before we run out of time. I want to give us a few verses that are short, that I think just speak to. The element of this is not just social science, this is not just things that we made up on the fly or just even counseling practices. I think these are scriptural things that have been called into.

Speaker 2:

So, I'm going to kind of work backwards on my list here, but Galatians 6, 2, we mentioned it in our previous podcast, but it says bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. We're called to this act of love, like the law of Christ is basically love, and so the love one another is to kind of sit with each other's burdens. Now, in small talk you probably won't go to the place of burdens, but the more you keep these three principles of humility, curiosity and empathy in play, you're going to pull things out of people that are going to reveal their burdens. And so how do you walk alongside them in it? And then Romans 12, 15 says rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep.

Speaker 2:

I love that, because there are times of celebration, there's times of sadness, and to hold space with people and not just say like so here's a small talk, spiritual bypass moment sitting at a church with you know people that you don't know very well. You're having a meal together and someone says you know, it's been a pretty rough week. Well, god's going to bless you in that. You know it's like move on, move on, sir.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're not here to talk about your problems.

Speaker 2:

You're not weeping with those that weep.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest ways, in reference to the Romans 12 verse, that the shift response will happen. Hey man, how you doing.

Speaker 2:

Rough week.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's this other and I'm going to take this in another direction.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, that's good and here's, you know, here's this other thing.

Speaker 1:

And versus like no, stay with them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, stay with them and I think that's part of what it is and it doesn't have to be like I think sometimes in grief we often feel that what we have to offer feels incomplete.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but just your willingness to offer it I think matters. And you know, I've, inversely, I've experienced sorts of things where people who I don't know super well will but I think about the context of church will will ask me the question of like, well, how things going, and I desire, when in the ways that I can, to answer authentically, and when I'm not doing great I don't want to put on that I am for the most part, and so I've had those questions put to me and I'll say it's okay, it's been some rough stuff kind of going on this week. Yeah, and I think of one person in particular again not someone I know really well, but their response to me in that is you know, I don't know what it is that's going on for you, but I want you to know I'm really sorry for whatever it is and that, like you know, you know you basically just it wasn't much more than that, just kind of wanting to show some solidarity and support.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that meant a lot and there wasn't. The conversation didn't go beyond that. Yeah, I didn't dive into what was going on with me, but I didn't feel redirected, because I think part of that redirection ultimately feels like rejection, like what I'm bringing to you. You don't want it's too heavy, it's too much.

Speaker 2:

I don't want that, yeah. Finally, the last verse is 1st Peter 3a and it says finally, all of you have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart and a humble mind, and I think that just encapsulates the three pieces of what you know. Again, we always started with small talk, but it's just basic, like conversation between two people that can make it go to better spaces than the shallow ends, and so, yeah, it's good conversation.

Speaker 1:

I'm grateful to have it and we've got a few more episodes we're going to put out for the season and then Matt and I are going to. You know, take a pause. We're not done, if just more of we've been, as we highlighted in a recent episode that we record talking about fatigue that's part of it, and so it is.

Speaker 1:

we're reaching the end of a calendar year and we're going to tell you some more in some future episodes of what we're looking for the next season to kind of how that we're planning for that to shape, lord willing in that, and but, matt, again, just I'm. One of the things I really like is I do find that in these conversations that, even as we're recording them, I begin thinking about new things. Some of my you know, my fumbling, my pausing in when we're talking is oftentimes like, okay, what, huh huh, that's really like that's. That's hitting me in different ways and yeah, so I think this was a cool conversation.

Speaker 2:

I'm grateful to have it with you, yeah Well, thank you all for listening to it as well, and we look forward to talking to you again next time. Thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of church psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to church psychology wherever you're finding us and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.