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Church Psychology
Mental Health Professionals looking at the intersections of social & behavioral science and the formed Christian life. Visit us for free resources and more at www.ChurchPsychology.org
Church Psychology
The Emotional Rollercoaster of Life's Transitions
Ever found yourself at a crossroads, unsure which path to take? Have you ever questioned how God's will fits into the messy, complicated puzzle of life's transitions? Join us as we peel back the layers of this topic, breaking down the complexities and inviting you into a faith-based dialogue about navigating change. Matt and I bring you on this journey, reminding ourselves and our listeners that God's will is not a static destination but an ever-evolving journey.
Transitions, whether they are joyous or filled with grief, can be a tumultuous time. From the euphoria of new beginnings to the subtle melancholy of what we leave behind, our emotions can take us on a rollercoaster ride. During this episode, Matt and I delve into these emotions, discussing the intricacies of friendship-building outside structured environments and the loneliness that can creep in amidst change. We also delve into the coexistence of joy and grief during transitions and why it's crucial to acknowledge these feelings.
Sharing personal narratives, we discuss the challenges and victories that come with such a transition, the importance of long-term relationships, and knowing when it's time to let go. Join us as we unpack the wisdom we've acquired on embracing change and taking risks. So head over to our website ChurchPsychology.org and connect with us further, access our free community library, and get your hands on some exclusive content. Let's navigate life's transitions together, one episode at a time.
Hey there everyone. Dr David Hall here with Church Psychology. In today's episode, matt and I talk about just some of our thoughts as therapists in regarding the consideration of transitions. Sometimes, when faced with a life transition whether considering a relationship or a job or whatever it is sometimes I find that we can spiritualize it in ways that aren't always helpful. Matt and I just wanted to talk about what the process is like for us as counselors when we're walking with people. Some thoughts of how that fits in the greater context of Christian formation. Transitions sometimes are welcome, sometimes they're not, and it's a process that comes up in our work a lot. So we decided that we were going to unpack that. So stay tuned for that conversation. We're going to start that now.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Church Psychology, a podcast of the Nagev Institute. We are mental health professionals looking at the intersections of social and behavioral science in the Christian life. Please connect with our free resources in our open community library at churchpsychologyorg. We would be grateful if you would follow, like or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you are finding us, and also leave us a review as we start. If we are to love the Lord, our God, with all of our mind, it makes sense to work on our head space. Let's get to work Well. Welcome back everybody to the Church Psychology Podcast. My name is Matt Schooniman. I'm here again with Dr David Hall. Hey, david, hello Matt, what's?
Speaker 1:going on with you today. You know it is a beautiful fall day in East DA and it's nice. We're loving it, so yeah we are in the penultimate, so it's called episode for our first season. So for those it is not the last, but the second to last.
Speaker 2:That word has. It's so funny. That word has come up so often. You know how there's some. This is not the episode's topic by any means but how. There's some words that people catch on to and like we just start using over and over and over. I think penultimate has been one that a year ago I would have been like I have no idea what that word means, but it's been used so much in my circles lately that I'm like, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:So Like gaslight. Yes, exactly like gaslight.
Speaker 2:It's become that same thing. It's the same topic, yeah, no, well, anyway, what is our second to last topic going to be for this season?
Speaker 1:We're going to talk about transitions and in a lot of different ways. That means specifically looking at like transitions in life seasons, whether that's related to work or family life or things like that. It felt just in recent conversations that Matt and I have had and that's so folks know that that's a lot of often what drives the topics that Matt and I pick is we kind of find as we work together and what are the conversations that we find are coming up offline with us but coming up with clients and then it just kind of feels hurt in it. But before we get going, I also want to just remind people that, for those who've enjoyed this podcast, that do check us out on our website, churchpsychologyorg and connect with us through our free community library that connects you to our email list, and we're going to talk in our last episode for the season what it's kind of been for so far this season, what we're looking for in the time to come.
Speaker 2:We are the seasons to come.
Speaker 1:The seasons to come. We're recording this in late end of October 2023 and we plan on kind of taking a little break as the year closes out and be back with you in the beginning of 2024 for things. But it's been a fun ride we've had so far. I look forward to how it continues. But we really want to stay connected with you all we want, as we have new episodes coming out, we're also going to have different free material that's going to be exclusive to those in the community library. So if you're listening, you're interested and you just want to. It's the way that we'd ask people to support us now is go to our website, churchpsychologyorg. Connect with the free community library membership, and that allows us just to stay connected with you and let you know what's coming out so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good yeah.
Speaker 2:Transitions.
Speaker 1:So changes, changes.
Speaker 2:David Bowie song Changes.
Speaker 1:Changes, changes, changes. So to kick us off, yeah, to talk about something we'll say in Christianese, or it's not even a phrase I'm thinking, but there's a way, I think, of talking in evangelical Christian circles about life and about where we feel we are, where we're supposed to be. I think we can spiritualize things in our language in ways that aren't always helpful. We'll talk about, like I feel the Lord's calling me to something or I feel and it's not that I don't think that's true I've certainly felt that in my life at times, that a nudge or a pull towards, whether it's a job or in a relationship or a physical place, I've certainly felt that.
Speaker 1:But here's where I think we can miss something that's important. I think oftentimes we take our very finite view of the world as humans and we try to superimpose God's will on top of it. And God is far more complex of a being than we are. And how do we? Sometimes we're in our desire to make God fit into our idea of our lives, we will oftentimes step into something with a greater sense of permanence than it may actually permit to have. We assume that once we discern or decipher the signs in our lives of what we feel we're being led towards, that God's will for us is this puzzle we have to solve. And once we solve it, then that's it. Then, once we know this thing, it becomes this thing and I think I've heard it a lot and you can speak to this man, as this has been part of your journey in closer proximity. For those who've worked in vocational ministry, I hear it a lot in that or just for like this is it, this is in.
Speaker 2:Well, it runs the risk of permanence in completion towards the whole process which, if you look at that from a grander angle, like a greater angle, you would notice that you would. Well one would say, oh, my process of completion is nowhere near done. I mean as much as it relates to sanctification. You know God's always working on us to grow and mature and become more like Christ, and so to really take anything with such I don't know the word now solidity is that the word yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:Oh, it worked. Yeah, you know that one episode. We were talking about the words you're trying to find. But to take anything in that regards could run a risk, because everything is about growth and maturing in Christ, and so if we find something that feels so solid and then all of a sudden you know God's wanting us to grow again, like that could be very confusing, you know so.
Speaker 1:Well, and yeah, I think sometimes we resist a change when it's being presented to us, because sometimes it can. We can feel like we failed, that we've particularly when we felt particularly confirmed in a path and it doesn't go as long as we thought it was going to or didn't lead to something. Quite in the same way, how that can cause us to doubt ourselves and often to doubt God. And the scripture reference that comes most to mind to me right now is two levels of things in the same story of Samuel. The prophet Samuel has been set up as a judge in Israel, yeah, and the people are saying to Samuel we want a king. And you know, we want to be like other nations, we want to have a king. And you know, god, in conversing with Samuel in it says basically he, he God is, is telling Samuel it's not to blame himself. Basically he said the people are not rejecting you, they're rejecting me.
Speaker 1:But in that story it was clear that this was not what God's initial design was, even, and that that's something that, particularly for those of us who lean in very deeply in the the sovereignty of God, reform sort of thinking, this idea of like what did God know that the people were going to reject the leadership of judges, yeah, and what does that mean for God's sovereignty and all I mean, and that's its own thing, that not what I'm thinking for us to kind of get into, but you know that was not the plan.
Speaker 1:And then when, in choosing a king, saul is anointed anointed as king and that's that doesn't work out in the end, he's rejected in the end for his disobedience. And then another is is chosen David. And I know that was the biblical narrative that came to mind to me of you know, those were not the plans for different people involved, those not Samuel's plans, it's not Saul's plans. Right, and ultimately to say, or were the God's plans? In a deep sense she asks but even then God is kind of expressing this is not what I, this is disappointing, it's not it's. You know, I, my this is, it fits within God's overall will, I believe. But there are layers to that that become complex and complicated.
Speaker 1:So anyway, that's what comes to mind, and what happens when the road doesn't go as long as we think it's going to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know there's a place of so in the concept of just transitions and changes. I know that a lot of times using that phrase, those phrases are often used, I think, in times of a maybe it's a job change or a move to a house or or you know that kind of thing. But a lot of times we we don't tie it to these words. But even through grief and loss, there's a place of change. The dynamics of divorce, there's like a lot of things that produce grief that come from on the heels of severe changes, you know, and they're in. Talking about these kinds of transitions with others in times past, what I've noticed is that this is real confusing to people. There is, at the same time, both joy and excitement for what's ahead, not necessarily for like grief, but back to maybe some of the job transitions or moving, that kind of thing. Joy and excitement for what's next. But then there's this subtle hint of something that feels bad. And they haven't, and a lot of times we have to name it as grief.
Speaker 2:When I've worked with people and and I think it's hard for people to recognize that, oh, but this is such a good thing, why would I grieve this? And it's because of as much as there's something new, there's also a loss loss of relationships that you thought were stronger than maybe they were, or just the nature of a new dynamic where you move out of town and you lose contact with certain people. I see a lot of this with people who college students, who have formed for four years such strong bonds with people, very formative years of relational building, and then all of a sudden they all scatter to different parts of the country to find jobs. It's hard to then reconnect with others. The excitement of going to a new job is there, the excitement of a new city, all that stuff is there, but there's grief in the loss of relationships or the change in relationships.
Speaker 1:No, it's changing. It is lost because oftentimes even there may not be a strange bit, it may not be like I'm mad at you and I'm not going to talk to you yeah exactly, but you don't have access to the person in the same way.
Speaker 1:The point you're bringing up, matt, I think is very core to a lot of the people I've seen counseling. I've worked with a lot of men and over the years it's been I've had a high portion of young men in kind of the mid-20s, early career, post-college sort of place and I've reflected with them in counseling work and certainly I reflected in what it was for myself in that same phase of life. For me I experienced it as a very disorienting phase of life and how I come to describe it is so many of the social and relational aspects of your life, for most of us at least, are fairly structured and set up into a certain point because starting around five years old and even before then, if you're doing like preschool, but starting when you're go to school, you are your kind of social world and you're particularly your connection with peers is kind of handed to you. You're the people you go to school with if you grew up in church and maybe youth group and things like that. But there's this set structure of people that are in the same season of life of you when you're seven years old. That's a very set season of life but you're put with a whole bunch of other seven-year-olds and it continues. You get a little older, older, adolescence. Sometimes there can be more variation in age of your friends, maybe friends with someone who's a little bit older, a little bit younger, but for the most part it's still the same phase, college, same sort of thing, and you're giving these structures of life that kind of keep you together and keep you experiencing certain things together, whether it's academics or sports or church life, mission trips, whatever it is, and you get used to that. And then it stops and you're not given the same sort of thing, even for me, because I finished my undergraduate and then went to grad school.
Speaker 1:But grad school felt very different to me because, whereas my undergrad I was with a whole bunch of other people that were in their late teens, early 20s. We were all about the same age. When I went to grad school for counseling even though I went at 23, I had a lot of classmates that were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. People were in different phases of life. People were married, some weren't, so there wasn't that kind of togetherness and anyway. But one of the things a lot of my clients will say, is some version of like I don't know how to make friends outside of these structures and I feel so lonely and I feel so disconnected, and there could be this deep longing for what it was before. And some people even in that, not knowing how to process the grief, will sometimes regress a little bit, so they won't embrace the change or the transition because of that loneliness or fear.
Speaker 1:Anyway, just as you were talking, that's what came to mind for me in counseling work of sometimes we don't, we can't put words to what it is and so we can resist it. We assume that because we're sad about something, it's a bad change. We would assume that if it was a good change, that we would feel uniformly positive about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Anyway. So we have to hold the tension between the two. Thank youisa not fight the fact that you do feel certain aspects of it. I think that's a lot of that. Then the next stage is you get kind of stuck in it. Then I think shame can build from that to where they then start attacking their self because they feel these things. And again, not all change carries the same weight of grief or excitement, but oftentimes they can be there together and I think that's the biggest point of that.
Speaker 2:You were talking about God calling us into things and then feeling like that wasn't what I had thought and I kind of have an anecdote with that personally, but I can't give a lot of details. But there's a sense to which I felt. This is personal for me to people who know me know this but for the past few years I've wrestled in between two worlds and we had a podcast about, or an episode about, my two worlds and a lot of my work was a sense of, or a lot of the wrestling was a sense of. I didn't feel like I was fully in either one and so I felt kind of pulled between the two.
Speaker 1:The tension. I guess in context for those who didn't hear the episode before, but your work is both a clinical mental health counselor and as a pastor in a pastoral setting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm right now in a bivocational role at a place and then work here as well, and so, but for a long time I bounced back and forth with this sense of like. No, it has to be one or the other, it can't be both. Like this forever, like this is temporary, this is seasonal that's another churchy term seasonal. I love it, actually, because it does reflect a lot of like what God does in us, our seasons, like our earthly seasons. But I felt it that way and until recently I've, you know, I had a conversation with someone and they were kind of inviting me into something and I thought that would be the thing that kind of brought peace and it didn't.
Speaker 2:And I was really faced with kind of a, not a crisis, but a sense of like.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that is and God working in me that you know, this sense of calling into something.
Speaker 2:But then that he has, you know, revealed to me this sense of I don't know how to say it besides, like a state put like he's like, like this sense of. You know, I want you in the tension, because it's within the tension that you are more dependent on me, that you are having to follow my voice more than your own, that it's not just about comfort and convenience for you. So those are the three big messages that I kind of learned in this season of what I thought was transitioned but it wasn't, and so I know that that's somewhat vague, but I think what it pulled out or topics, as it relates to this, that I want people to be careful to recognize as it relates to is God calling you into a change or a transition, because oftentimes what I've noticed that he doesn't call you into something that feels more comfortable or convenient for you. Often, yeah, maybe the correct is he does not call you into something that is for your comfort or convenience.
Speaker 1:You know I have two examples for myself that I think of kind of what transition change can look like. And so the first is when I was in my mid-20s I was living in Atlanta and I was resistant to move there in the first place. I wasn't really looking for it, but different work and education opportunities kind of pulled me there and initially it was very difficult. There was a lot of kind of loneliness and disconnection there. But I ended up I settled into a church and began volunteering. I was a volunteer youth leader and led the worship for the youth and that became a big point of investment for me. My career was starting to develop as a new therapist and I lived in a cool part of town and I enjoyed. I felt that I wasn't going to spend the rest of my life in Atlanta. It's a big city and it was. You know I liked where I lived but I also knew how expensive it would be to try to like own a home in the part of town where I was in and the different things with that. But I enjoyed the season and I moved there when I was 24. And I had this and I finished school at 25 and was there for another two years and I would talk to family and friends that my idea was like I think I'll stay here till I'm 30. That felt kind of like this thing in my mind I've all reached that point and that feels like a good time to move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I ended up beginning a romantic relationship with my wife and who became my wife, and she was finishing grad school and we even at the beginning of that relationship, we had the thought of well, you know, I've got a place in a cool part of town, well, you know, and she felt pretty settled in her relationships and things like that in the community.
Speaker 1:And so initially, even though we were looking to start build this life together, it's, you know, it's going to be here, but a few different things kind of coalesced together. Some was this was in 2008, which was the beginning of the great recession of that time, and Atlanta was particularly hard hit and it was particularly affecting the job market for therapists and my wife was finishing grad school for her degree in mental health counseling and we could see that the jobs weren't super plentiful. That was a factor. We had job offers in Knoxville, where I'm from and where we live now and where we've lived since. That felt like a pretty good opportunity and then I also had some mentoring. They really encouraged me in our career. It's not a great one to move in and you know, if you're working as a therapist it's kind of good to decide what's the community you want to invest in long term, because it's hard to reestablish yourself as you are trying to work somewhere else.
Speaker 1:And the advice I got was basically like, if you know you're not going to be here long term, don't stick around. Like it better to go and start building where you imagine yourself being long term. And I always saw myself coming back to Knoxville and having life here. But it was hard because I was really connected to my church. I really enjoyed the relationships I had there. I liked where I lived. We really were connected with our friends.
Speaker 1:But for branding, my wife and I we really felt, you know, this is what we need to do and it's not. But we weren't. There was some excitement because there was the opportunity of the new job, there was the sense of envision of what building life together could be like, all those sorts of things. But it was still sad and it was still. But I look back and I also can see so much wisdom in the timing of like I felt cared for in that that by the. I felt God prompted us in good ways to a good decision. Because I could see where it would have been harder on. You know, I think certain relationships, even if we had stayed, certain relationships wouldn't have been the same, yeah, and we could already see that stuff. And so sometimes we're pushed into change right before the bottom goes out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well and into that, and it's almost provisional or it is provisional. We don't necessarily see it as that, but I think about changes in my life, even moments of loss, where in the moment I don't feel this way, but looking back I see the impact or effect that has had on me in very positive ways for me to grow up, to mature, to differentiate from other people, to be more focused on the correct thing rather than the selfish thing, whatever it is there's so much of. It is formational to go through changes and I would caveat that with a sense to say now, that doesn't mean that you go looking for changes all the time, you don't hold on a job or you change relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's wish and stability. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but when it does come, or you're thrust into it, it could be a very strong opportunity for something to grow.
Speaker 1:The other example that comes to mind for me is I was part of a business startup in the mid-2000s which eventually led into the current Counseling Center, where Matt and I work and really enjoy that. But there were a lot of difficult turns to get there. We started as a different business that offered more medical services and there was so much financial pressure and there was so much Because of different relationships and there were certain things. It just didn't work and I felt so. I had so much shame in that process. Some of it, this idea of I couldn't make it work. Eventually I was just forced to change and not try to do the thing anymore. In the end I felt relief in the change, but I fought it. I felt like I've got to make this work.
Speaker 1:I see people in situations where they're in jobs, they're trying to hold onto certain friendships or relationships that they're and I'm not talking about the place where people are lacking commitment or lacking resolve to stay in hard situations. It is clear that where they're trying to keep something afloat it's not working and there's the sense of am I abandoning a calling or am I abandoning that? Again, I go back to people I've walked with as a counselor who have been in vocational ministry, of there's a sense of I felt a calling to be a pastor, I felt a calling to be, to get ordained, I felt a calling to plant this church or whatever it is, and the circumstances or other pressures or whatever it is are not allowing that path to be sustained. There's clear push into like this is a change that needs to happen and how difficult it could be to do Well and even how that may frame their view of God.
Speaker 2:And speaking of it this way, we kind of have this sense of well. They were so tunnel visioned in that maybe they don't have a great view of it, but in the moment they feel such a true feeling that they have been called. Because I've experienced a version of this. And so the question then, if it doesn't work out, is like who's at fault for this? If God, you are the author of these things, then I must look at you as part of the concern here, because, like and so there can be a lot of doubt and questioning. That happens when calling doesn't come to fruition.
Speaker 2:But again, that is a very focused, narrow view of, I think, calling, and I want to be careful not to like throw judgment onto anybody that has had a calling in this experience. But calling it in the pastoral ministry I've learned in my own life, is a lifelong thing, and so the steps to which I have to form or be formed to enact that calling may be difficult or painful, and so there may be a level of I am taken out of vocation, like. So, for instance, I may have to be taken out of vocational ministry for a season to be planted back in. But that was a formative process to do the work that he's called me to do, and so again, we could kind of get into the space of like, well, who's free will, was it?
Speaker 2:Like all that stuff. But I think that, like in that framework, if you do zoom out and see it as such, there's more of a long game mindset of what change is and what it's supposed to be doing. It's a reframe, so to speak, of how these things could work for good, as it talks about in the scripture.
Speaker 1:So I want to give some deep dive in this, on both the psychological aspect of things, and then kind of talk about in kind of more scriptural boundaries too. So for the psychological, you know and this also relates to just in therapy, what Matt and I do, and as it relates particularly as I'm talking with believers, oftentimes I will have people say they want to know well, what's God's plan for this. Or even if they're not spiritualizing it, they'll talk about like what's the right choice? They're presented with different jobs and going back to the phase of life, the post college, early career phase of life, I see a lot of people in the angst that a lot of people can be in and the choices that are before them, like, is this the right job? Should I go to this grad program? Should I date this person? What does this really mean? And they often I think we are trained sometimes to approach God in the sort of divination sort of way, which is not scriptural or godly, I would say, but this idea of like I need to divine what the true path is and it's my responsibility to be able to read the tea leaves and to know exactly what it's supposed to be. And I've come to a place and this is how I form it with clients and I'll say this to clients of mine that are believers and not believers. But I'll say I've come to the point where I don't necessarily believe in right decisions. I believe in wise decisions, and here's what I mean by that. To say like, am I making the right decision can imply this idea of you have all the information to make the perfect decision. It also implies that there's only a singular decision that works, and an example I give for this is through a deeply researched process.
Speaker 1:This is several years ago. I was trading out cars and wanted to get a used car, but I'm going to invest in a new vehicle and I had these parameters I was looking for. I ended up buying a Volkswagen Passat diesel and I wanted something for a lot of different reasons and I made the decision and bought it. And like six, seven months after I bought it, there's the scandal that rocked Volkswagen Corporation, called Dieselgate, where it turned out that basically these cars were cheating emissions test and there was a big recall and kind of all that. But I look at that and say, well, did I make an unwise decision? No, based on the information available to me, I made a wise decision.
Speaker 1:No, it wasn't correct. But that's different, and I think sometimes we look to see how something turns out, as that's what we have to figure out. We have to read into the future Versus. If you look at the arc of Scripture of talking about like, what is wise? Living look like, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you can make decisions that are taken in wisdom. That may not turn out like you hope or circumstances may contrive to make it different. Likewise, you can. You know, if you started up a hand sanitizer business in 2019 and then COVID hit like I don't know if that was necessarily a wise decision.
Speaker 1:It worked out for you financially, but that didn't necessarily mean that you engaged in wisdom and I think you know Scripture does not tell us to predict the future. In fact, it gives us clear indications all the time that not only can you, not you shouldn't try, when Jesus himself talks about the second coming and says I don't even know what it looks like, I don't even know what that timing is, Only the father knows. When one of the persons in the triune, God, acknowledges the lack of future predictive ability, shouldn't we kind of follow that lead? And again, it's not that we give up and say that we are completely unconcerned with looking at our paths that we're on and should this transition be made, should this change be embraced. It's not about that, but it can't necessarily be about are we divining what's happening Versus what does living faithfully look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think that line just then, because there is that element as believers, to which we're called to make choices that do not sin, and we have guidance within the Bible of what that is. And so, as people are faced with choices, I think it is important to discern in the sense, and this is part of the wisdom piece that you're talking about. The reason I bring this up is I wonder if people are listening. Some would listen and say, well, there is a writer, there's morality, there's right and wrong. You're making the choice to do this for money alone and not for your family. There's elements of that, and so for one to make a discerning choice does take time and prayer and maybe a lot of conversations with people to ensure that you're making the wise choice. So I just want to bring that clarity in that I think when you say wise choice and not the right or wrong choice, it's more in the sense of predicting future than it is of morality.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I appreciate that clarification, matt, because I absolutely would say that there are clearly immoral or wrong decisions. But I'm thinking more of the fact of when someone's saying should I take this job? Is this the right job? Is this the person that I should marry? Is this person the one which comes from Plato and is not? That idea of soulmates and things like that is not a Christian concept. It's crept in and we have this idea that we're never presented at, this idea that the spouse that you're supposed to have is this singular being that can never be anybody else. And I'm very grateful for my spouse, I'm very grateful for who I get to be married to. But is this? Am I married to the absolutely most compatible person in the world? For me, probably not. That's not the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the point is exactly. Yeah, it's not the point, because we have to be faced with things to where, if it was, that's back to comfort and convenience.
Speaker 2:If you were married to the exact perfect match, I wonder if there'd be any conflict at all. And without conflict? Even this is going down a different path. But I've noticed that couples and I'm one of them hate conflict. We don't want it and to some level it's understandable, in the sense that when conflict done poorly can be very damaging to a relationship. However, conflict done well can actually be very forming to a relationship and where relationships deep, dive into very intimate connection because you're known and you know someone better through that conflict, that could be its own episode, maybe second season. But all that being said is, if we find perfection, there's no room for that type of growth, there's no room for that type of intimacy or there's no room for that type of dependence on God. I think that's why we can't, we can never attain it, because then there would be no dependence.
Speaker 1:As we're getting close to the end, matt, I want to kind of reflect with you something I do in counseling, when people are trying to discern a chain, and I want to hear to what the process may look like for you. But when I'm sitting with somebody in counseling setting they're considering a change or an action or something that will lead to a change. Part of how I see my role professionally is I'm not there to predict the future for them. I'm there to give as wise of counsel as I can. And part of listening with them too and this is something else to say as a therapist is I'll say I can't tell you how this is going to work out. I can't tell you what choice you need to make, but based on the arc of what we've Our conversations have been about, based on these consistent themes that you are bringing up in your life, this seems to be congruent with it.
Speaker 1:That's usually the wording. I'll say this seems to be the sort of person that you would value as a spouse. You know, as you're considering this relationship, is it perfect? No, but that's not what you're going to find Does this person? What do you value in a potential spouse? How does this person meet that.
Speaker 1:What are the things in seeking wisdom and talking? If it's a believer, looking at scriptural wisdom, what are the things that you should value in this and considering a job or a career path? Is this consistent with what you see in yourself? What other people are speaking into your life? Is it the only thing you could do? Probably not.
Speaker 1:I mean, I enjoy the work I get to do, but I can imagine doing some other things.
Speaker 1:I can imagine having other career paths and having a sense of purpose and fulfillment, and I think sometimes we have this idea that if you have any doubt, that means you've made a bad decision, and I'd say this to clients all the time. I think doubt is just a function of choices, and when I don't doubt is when I don't feel I have a lot of choices. If I go to a really bougie restaurant that has like five things on the menu and three things I don't like and one thing I just had like a few days before and there's one thing that seems really good, I'll get the thing that seems really good because there aren't any other choices. But if I go to a place where, like, so many things look good, so many like, I may get the meatloaf or get the spaghetti or whatever it is that I get at this place, but then I'll say, oh, this other person got this other thing that looks pretty good and I make the right decision and that's a small thing but anyway that's a process.
Speaker 1:So with clients I really try to give them permission to have doubt, to have that angst of a change, because I find it makes it easier for them to not try to predict the future but just try to consider what's wise, what's moral, what's congruent with how I've lived and what other people are speaking to me. So that's my process in counseling. I'm curious, your thoughts, matt, and what it looks like.
Speaker 2:For you it's not too dissimilar, I think it's. You know, one thing that I try to slow down is less work with them on the pros and cons list, which can be effective at times to kind of see the whole picture, but it's more to look at what is the purpose of the change Like, what's really at the root of your desire to make this change. I don't feel valued here, I don't. You know like it's too uncomfortable. I'm looking for something more comfortable.
Speaker 2:You know those things would be great indicators of like whether or not is a good desire for change. You know, I feel like this place has more opportunity for me to do the thing that I'm most passionate about. That seems like a great goal. But then all these other things are scary to me. Well, that's part of the process of for those who believe that's part of the process with faith, is the stepping in things, the unknown, you know, and so like. Excuse me, if the goal of the, if the goal like aligns and is what they're in a sense they're, I guess, morality or moral compass then it feels like that is a change worth exploring. If it's kind of contrary or incongruent with who they are, then we have to look at it more in the sense of is it based out of like a hot emotion, like fear, disappointment, hurt, anger, those kind of things, and so you know similar to what to explain it through with them or to process through with them, like you're talking about, but really looking for the goal of the change?
Speaker 1:Something that comes to mind as you're talking to is this idea of also making them aware that, whatever you decide, there's risk. I think sometimes what when we feel resistance to change, we want reassurance that this will work in a certain way and we're not given that that to do to live is to risk, to put yourself out there in any sort of way. But risk is also very much connected to the reward. We feel that we don't value things that don't cost us anything, and that's something I want to present to my clients and work to that. Like I don't want to minimize that this feels scary. I can totally see why this feels scary, but I can't take that away from you. And there's a certain point where we do need to consider.
Speaker 1:You know you talk about slowing down the process and, like some certain decisions, particularly some big decisions, need to be considered deeply. But there's a point where there's no more data. There's nothing that you just it's gonna, you think it's gonna be good. And I say this in business, as I'm involved in different things, and particularly if someone's in a collaboration with me. One of the things I say is everything's a guess. Like any venture I do, business-wise or otherwise, it's a guess, I want it to be an educated guess. I don't want to just blindly guess, but it's still a guess, because I don't control the future and I do not have the ability to predict the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the educated guess.
Speaker 1:It's embracing our finite nature that God has given us. God has designed us to be finite. There are things that we I'm gonna preach for a second.
Speaker 1:There are things that we live in, in this world, that we struggle with because of effective sin, of the fallen nature of the world, whether it's our personal sin, the sin of a broken world, those sorts of things. But there are other things that we carry with us that we can struggle with, that are in the initial design, and I think our finite nature is a part of that. There's nothing that I understand from the archer scripture that says that we were meant to be, or will be in the future, anything but finite. And when you are limited as a person and the space that you inhabit and how much you can comprehend, kind of all that there's gonna be so much that you have to deal with. That's unknowable and it's what living consistently in faith looks like. Anyway, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good. Go for that, that's good. Thank you for the soapbox. No, it's a good preachy. Well, anything.
Speaker 1:I mean, that feels like good thoughts. Man, I appreciate it. I love hearing what you had to say.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I love hearing what you have to say, and we hope that you, too, too, was listening. So again, catch us next time for our final episode of the season, and we'll be back with, hopefully, much more content, maybe some surprises along the way, and we'll talk to you more about that when we get back together for our last episode. So until then, david, we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:Catch you later.
Speaker 2:Thank you again for being a part of our latest episode of Church Psychology. If you have enjoyed it, we hope that you will share this episode with others in your life, and please do remember to follow, like and or subscribe to Church Psychology wherever you're finding us, and leave us a review. We look forward to connecting with you again soon.