Candidate Experience - The Work Wire

Join us for a compelling episode of Work Wire as we explore the nuances of the recruitment process with a focus on enhancing the candidate experience. This discussion covers the challenges and strategies involved in treating candidates as valued customers and the impacts these practices have on employer branding.

The conversation begins with an examination of prevalent issues in recruitment, such as ghosting and the often lengthy and inefficient interview cycles. Insights are shared on regional variations in candidate experiences, highlighted by data from the Talent Board, which notes a significant rise in candidate resentment scores in North America.

Further discussion delves into the realities of rejection within recruitment, the complexities of providing feedback, and the importance of managing legal and ethical considerations. The benefits of extensive interview processes are also debated, emphasizing their role in ensuring a thorough mutual assessment essential for determining cultural fit and job satisfaction.

Throughout the episode, emphasis is placed on the necessity of empathy, respect, and strategic communication in transforming recruitment practices. Practical advice is offered on how companies can maintain positive relations with all candidates, thereby enhancing their reputation and strengthening their employer brand.

Tune in to this insightful episode to understand how to make recruitment a more empathetic and effective process that respects candidates and enriches your company's brand. This conversation is a must-listen for HR professionals and job seekers alike, providing valuable insights to navigate the complexities of modern recruitment.

Transcript

: 0:00

You're listening to WorkWire, sponsored by CareerClub and SHRM. Careerclub has a range of services aimed at job seekers with an empathetic approach. Whether you are a job seeker yourself, know someone who is in job search or an HR professional looking to bring a more empathetic approach to transitioning employees, check out Career Club. If you are an HR professional seeking to enhance your skills, subscribe to SHRM and explore their extensive resources, Visit SHRMorg. That's SHRMorg.

Bob Goodwin: 0:36

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Work Wire. I'm Bob Goodwin, the founder of Career Club, joined by my good friend, the CEO and president of SHRM, johnny C Taylor Jr, johnny, how are you, my friend?

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 0:43

Hey, bob and happy new year, my friend. Happy new year to you as well, quite a 2023, and it looks like 2024 is not going to give us any shortage of topics for the work-wise.

Bob Goodwin: 0:54

I think we're in a top-rich environment, for better or for worse.

: 1:01

Yes, that's right so today's topic.

Bob Goodwin: 1:06

I'm going to kind of just jump into it because it's something that's very near and dear to my heart. You know, at Career Club we work a lot with individual job seekers as well as people that are coming to us via outplacement services that we provide, and so we've got, you know, our clients are active job seekers, so I'm very sensitized to what their experiences are. And what I was hoping we could talk about today is under the broad headline of candidate experience. And you know from where I sit, and I know that you're going to have a different point of view, which I'm very much looking forward to is that the candidate experience leaves something to be desired. You know we'll talk a lot about ghosting, just how long things take, the length of interview cycles, all that kind of stuff, and yet on the other side you know I know that we'll talk about HR talent acquisition professionals are doing the best they can with the staffs that they have to work with. But I just wanted to share you know a couple of things here.

Bob Goodwin: 2:10

There's an organization called Talent Board Johnny, that, as you may be familiar with a little bit newer to me and they actually have been measuring over time, via surveys with about 200 companies, candidate experience and basically using a net promoter score methodology. And what's kind of cool is they also do it as candidates go through the talent acquisition process, from being screened to interviewed to offer to hired, and how they're basically their net promoter score kind of changes or what's it look like at different stages. It's also interesting and I know we'll talk about this that the scores vary by region of the world. So I'll probably quote some North American numbers and know that they don't look the same around the world. Okay, but they have awards. They call them CANDY C-A, them candy C and E, so I guess their little word for that is the candy award. And in 2022, they've got a score which is basically a negative net promoter score that they term resentment, and in North America it's up 50% since 2020.

Bob Goodwin: 3:25

So, and not small numbers. So from 8% to 12%, which would be a 50% increase using my Tennessee math. But even talking about you know how likely would you be to reapply to this company? The scores are down. How likely would you be to refer this company to a friend of yours who was thinking about applying down? So there's, there's just a lot, and so I guess I want to start at the start candidate experience. How would you describe that and what does that mean to to you and to the organization that you serve?

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 4:03

right. So you I'm going to say it in the context of we think at SHRM a lot about internal customers and external customers, but they're all customers, which is why I love what Talent Board does and the use of the sort of the MPS. Now, I don't know all the details about how they apply it to their context, their context, but what I will say is the notion that these folks who come in for interviews should and to interact with your organization to look for employment opportunities, should, be thought of as customers. Your employees are customers. But here's a real irony to it all, bob Even if someone doesn't get the job at company A, they actually could still be your external customer, they could be a consumer. So employers have an obligation, I think, and it's actually in our best interest, to treat people as well as you can during the interview process.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 4:58

Now you may ask why do I say as well as you can? Because the reality is, if you see a thousand people for one job, 999 people are not going to be happy with it and some percentage of them hopefully a small number, will have, you know, will have legitimate concerns. But our data will tell you. It's amazing how people feel, how differently they feel about a company, something you know, the ideal job, the perfect company, et cetera until they're rejected. And no matter how you do it, like there's no easy way to say like this isn't a match. You often have a negative or bitter taste in your mouth and I think, if we're all being honest, that's it. No one likes to be rejected, and especially when you put a ton of time which I know you're going to talk about a lot of effort and research and preparing when someone says you're not good enough or there was someone better than you, no matter how beautifully they word it, that's not an acceptable answer for some people and it leaves them with some sense of resentment. So you know, the talent board work is critically important.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 6:07

I think that we have to make sure. I love the fact that they do it at different points, because a person who loved you and said at a great first interview may, by the end of it, think you're horrible and who knows what the real answer is, you know. But it is a real issue for us, mostly because our employer brands matter more and more. If someone goes out, has negative experience, they go out and trash on social media. You could have other candidates or potential candidates decide not to interview with you based upon what that person says is sort of a Yelp review and the chance that you may lose that customer, that potential talent, and the chance that you may lose that customer, that potential talent. And, as I pointed out at the outset, there's the other side of this, which is if I go interview for a job at Walmart and I have a horrible experience, I may also no to be sensitized to this and do this right. And there's also part of your employer brand to your internal customers.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 7:10

You want to treat people right so that you have a solid reputation when you're going to market for talent.

Bob Goodwin: 7:19

No. So so picking up on your as always made points, it doesn't feel good and you know you've got people that you know are in between jobs, so they're sort of already in the kind of a bubble of rejection and then should be subjected to more. You know doesn't feel good. The the analogy and you're the king of empathy, like like I mean I know that's like very, very, very high with you. These are human beings, right? These aren't just work producing units. They're not cells on a spreadsheet, they're not just counts in an ATS, you know, to calculate conversion rates against or whatever. So these are real people.

Bob Goodwin: 7:58

And to be empathetic, and what would it feel like to be on the receiving end, if we wish you all the best in your future endeavors, if you even got that.

Bob Goodwin: 8:07

But the analogy that I use is like you fly a lot, so if the airline loses your luggage, nobody wants their luggage to be lost.

Bob Goodwin: 8:16

But if delta over delivered and like immediately, was on the phone with you and said mr taylor, I'm really sorry there's been a mix-up, but you know, here's a hundred dollar voucher and we're going gonna do this and do that for you because we want to make sure that you're as well as you can be in a situation you don't want to be in, then I think, and it's done, you know, with authenticity, you know that's just like kind of hey, here's 10 cents, good luck, but something like that.

Bob Goodwin: 8:43

I'm not talking about money in this case. I'm just making an analogy that if, if there was something that was a more empathetic approach and maybe even kind of geared to how far into the interview process did somebody get right? If I'm being declined, you know, just by the ATS, that's one level of engagement. If I made it to the finalists for a VP role and I put in a ton of work like getting the same rejection letter of I wish you all the best in your future endeavors, that doesn't feel appropriate to me and it certainly doesn't feel very empathetic to where that person might be coming from.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 9:23

So I could not agree with you more. The question is, what would be enough? And I'll give you a personal example. I interviewed a candidate, I interviewed three finalists for a role, not here at SHRM, but at another organization in which I worked as a hiring manager and at the end of it, I interviewed three. One person got it, the other two didn't. One of the candidates and I mean I interviewed three, one person got it, the other two didn't. One of the candidates and I mean I was. I had done lunch with them because this was a high level position and I wanted to spend time with them. One of the two candidates who was not successful in getting the job Right Still a very great candidate I called, I personally explained that we went with another candidate.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 10:06

I'm telling you it couldn't have been 12 seconds into it. Well, what did she have that I didn't have? And can you tell me why? And, by the way, let me tell you about the interview that I had with that person on your team who I did, and it just became this full gripe session. I was like time out one. I don't have time to coach you for your next job, like respectfully, I don't have that kind of time, like and we know that, and you've been in talent acquisition long enough, you got the hiring manager looking for the next job to be filled right. So I want to give you the right level of respect, I want to take you through it and explain. But there are things I can't talk about. Like I can't tell you of the three people who interviewed you, this person didn't like you, and let me tell you exactly what they said. I mean, there are people who have those sorts of expectations, otherwise, they don't think they were given a fair shot. So I would just say empathy on both sides.

: 10:59

Yeah, you know, I talk about this idea of empathy.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 11:03

Oftentimes, dr Alex Alonzo, our chief knowledge officer, talks about meepathy, meepathy a lot, which is the idea that I want empathy but I don't want to Right.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 11:15

And so this notion is there is a talent acquisition person sitting on the other side who has 20 or 30 requisitions to fill and they are kind enough to call you back and bring you in the loop and tell you unfortunately you didn't get it, da da da. But if you want to spend an hour re-litigating, if you will that decision, it's not a good use of their time. It's just not productive for anyone because you're not going to get the job and they're now going to lose productivity and so it's a bad bet. So I just I throw it out there not to defend, not giving people and seeing them as humans. You know I'm very, very high empath. But to say empathy goes both ways, and when you're hiring at the rates that you are these days and that we've been for the last three years in a post-pandemic world and frankly, before the pandemic, if you remember, we've had ultra low unemployment there's a lot of pressure on the talent acquisition people to keep this machine going.

Bob Goodwin: 12:12

So I want to compliment you first of all, johnny, because the fact that you took the time to personally call this person and irrespective of how they responded to it, you did the right thing. So, kind of as much as it depends on you, it you did the right thing right. How they receive that is is kind of on them. Um, what we're seeing some progressive companies do is, rather than just send out a flat, you know, we wish you all the best in your future endeavors that's so 80, right?

Bob Goodwin: 12:51

no, it's so 2024, unfortunately, but, um, but it's is. Is is getting creative, like with providing some job search resources. Like we know, this is hard. We know this isn't the news that you wanted to hear. We want to be a help to you.

Bob Goodwin: 13:00

As you know, you move forward in your continued job search, so here's some resources we think might be helpful to you.

Bob Goodwin: 13:06

They're free, you have a nice day, it's something right.

Bob Goodwin: 13:09

It's something that acknowledges in the words we know this isn't what you wanted to hear and rather than kind of helpful, you know, as you move forward, you're the company has got to be able to balance offering a little bit more to somebody with just highly limited resources, volumes of candidates that they're trying to get placed into roles and vet and do what their main job is in TA.

Bob Goodwin: 13:41

But at the same time, I believe there is a great opportunity for companies that really want to build a long-term relationship with candidates who really do care about their employer brand, to think about and how can they be creative in building a longer-term relationship. Because the reality is these people are going to end up likely either as customers, like in your Walmart example, and I've seen calculators that say, hey, you know, if you piss off this amount of people that you reject, this percentage of people is going to stop shopping you. And if their annual spend is X, the lifetime value of poor treatment is not small dollars. It's worth it. You're going to get an RY, but the other idea is Before you leave.

Bob Goodwin: 14:33

They're going to likely end up. Go ahead, go ahead. Don't use my idea, because I'm likely to do that.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 14:39

I'll say I just wanted to make the point. You know, because sometimes I listen in arrears, if you will. You're spot on that there is a better way. My point was not to suggest that there's nothing that we can do as employers. You're right.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 14:57

These smart companies, the ones that have really cutting edge HR and talent acquisition processes and practices, understand there's something between just a dear John or Dear Jane letter and you know, especially, as you point out, the more time that someone has invested in getting to know you. So if they're an interview number three and you simply shoot one of those letters out, shame on you. That really is kind of the dated approach I believe have commercial implications for people, because many of these people are consumers or can influence the consumer, who will ultimately be your customer. So so I got that, but I didn't want to make short shrift of it by saying listen, the reality is, you know, people have to get over it. I wasn't indicating that I understand, that I understand People who are listening didn't know that. I understand that I turn down 100 people for the job and I gave the white male candidate a fuller explanation than I gave the black female candidate who didn't get the job.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 16:28

Will I ultimately get dragged into this. It's not a reason to be clear. I'm not saying that's not a reason not to, but it's just. It's not as simple, as you know, spending as much time as you want with everyone, because if you aren't prepared to give this level of response and empathy toward one, then you can't, and to all, then you shouldn't give it to one, because this gets really really messy and the TA people are concerned about the time. They're also concerned about the legal, highly litigious environment that we have in the United States.

Bob Goodwin: 17:02

Yeah, so one of the things that we coach our clients on for anybody who's listening is in an interview because, to your exact point, once that door closes, that Zoom window closes, you're highly unlikely to get real feedback for every reason you just said. So we really encourage people. You know, as the interview is starting to wind down, johnny, I've really enjoyed our time together. Thank you so much. Based on everything you've heard so far, you know what gives you the most confidence that I might be a good fit for the role of Bob. You've got this, you got that and you got the other thing. And I guess on the other side of Joni, are there any concerns that you've got about my ability to be well, bob, kind of wish you had more automotive experience. We think that's gonna be kind of important.

Bob Goodwin: 17:42

But again, I think, you're a great feedback once that door shuts so for our candidates.

Bob Goodwin: 17:50

We really encourage you to ask those questions because it could be a miscommunication. No, no, I've got automotive experience. I'm so sorry, I, I, I completely omitted my time at ford. Oh, didn't know that. Or, you know, to help kind of based on you know, kind of the things that you like and the industry experience, johnny, how would you kind of stack, rank those? Oh, you just add, I don't think the automotive is that important. I think you've got amazing skills and what we need. So I think you're a super strong candidate. At least you know, and that's the part that I think for candidates, clarity is giant. That's the part that I think for candidates.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 18:30

Clarity is giant and Bob, to that point, giving the talent acquisition or the hiring manager, whoever delivers the message that you didn't get the job, giving them permission to be candid. That's why I love I hadn't thought about that but I love the idea of saying to someone tell me, you know, like you said at the end of the interview, tell me about what went well and what gives you pause. And I think you'd go a step further and say and I really want you to be honest, because whether or not I get this job or not, I'm going to be interviewing for a role elsewhere. So anything that you can tell me, mr or Ms Hiring Manager or a talent acquisition professional, I will consider that a gift, giving that person permission to be honest with you will go a long way and I hope you encourage and everyone listening.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 19:20

None of us want to deliver the bad news no one. There's nothing better than delivering the great news. You got the job. All hands are raised because everyone wants to make the offer. No one wants to have the rejection calls. So you have to make us feel pretty decently about going through the process because I believe net net the feedback is a gift, even if it's not feedback that you actually want to hear at the time.

Bob Goodwin: 19:43

Yeah, so I want to move on to just a couple other not small points. In this whole kind of recruiting process because it is part of the candidate experience is a couple things. One is when a work product is being requested. So I need you to, like you know, do a mock sales call for me. I need you to do a presentation for me, like, like you need to produce some work candidate, yep, and then separate but related is eight rounds of interviews and like, can anybody like here make a decision? Like like, what's going on here? So we just find you know again, I'm very candidate centric in in my job that candidates really feel like they're being put through the mill without kind of an equal level of I don't know what commitment to something as we go deeper in the process. So you're asking a lot from me but I'm incrementally not getting more from you and then I'm likely just going to get the dear John, dear Jane letter at the end of it and it just feels. It feels just really out of alignment.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 20:55

So challenge and this is what I'm so glad you brought up and I hope the people out there don't like throw rotten tomatoes through the screen.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 21:02

But I think it's totally not accurate to say I'm doing all of this and you're doing nothing. Let me tell you, if I give you eight interviews of my highly paid executives time, trust me, I'm investing a lot in you. You may not see it, but and I get it proportionately you may say, listen, it's a lot of my time, but at the end of the day, if you are, the more interviews you are getting internally. Frankly, a lot of times I understand there's over process, right, but a lot of times what we're doing is the most important decision a hiring manager can make is their hire and they want to do everything that they can do to ensure that. You know, not just the competency skillset required at the job, but our culture. You only get culture by meeting different people, not one person, but different people, different. And then you get all of that because in this process you should be interviewing me as much as I'm interviewing you to decide.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 22:02

The more interviews you get, especially if you are in a role very different from most of your clients, bob.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 22:08

But if you are currently in a company doing fine and someone reached out and you're going through this interview process, it is a gift Again when the company will give you the opportunity to ensure that you're going to like it here, because I've now left my good job to come to you and after only interviewing with two people, I don't really know if this is right. So I'm a big fan of more interviews, not fewer, provided you tell me up front, provided you try to accommodate me. And I've said to hiring managers try to give it one full day of interviews, as opposed to having somebody return to your office six different times, because they do have lives and most of us with jobs can't just break out. So because they do have lives and most of us with jobs can't just break out. And so there is a lot to be said by candidate experience, but I would just say I challenge the notion that the company gets nothing or is not investing anything.

Bob Goodwin: 23:00

And it's a fair point, johnny. I guess my point is well, when is enough enough? Like, do I really need to go through eight rounds of interviews Because I can meet eight more people and have an even deeper sense of the culture there?

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 23:16

Eight is probably enough. Remember that TV show? Oh my God, eight's enough. So I think there's some number. If it's five, if it's six, oh, you know, I can tell you right now, in my current job, my folks hate for me to talk about my current role. I can tell you right now, in my current job, my folks hate for me to talk about my current role, but at the end of the day, I have 11 direct reports. If anyone is going to join my executive team, they're going to meet them all because, we happen to operate as a team.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 23:48

So what is the point of you meeting nine people out of the 11 and saying love it, love them all, only to get here and the two you didn't meet you hate. And, by the way, you spend a disproportionate amount of your time with them in your new job, like to your credit. I think it's about, bob I'll throw this out and you can, and I agree, 11's a lot and eight's a lot, but I think it's about telling people in the beginning this is how much time this is going to take. If you're really interested in coming to work with my organization, this is how we do it. This is the number of interviews and I got it. If you're too busy and not judging you, but you just can't commit the time, check. But if you do want to do it and you feel strongly about this up front, this is the time commitment.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 24:27

I think that's a better one as opposed to making companies decide is for the magic number is six, the magic number is eight. Enough. I don't know the answer there, so I'm unwilling to. I've heard that very you know sort of piece of feedback. Is just too long. Well, if I told you in the beginning. This is how long it takes. Then you've got to decide.

Bob Goodwin: 24:46

You know, and hiring is like solid it is and at the same time, it's a very competitive labor market and the best people are in demand and I think that there's an efficiency. There's just a you've talked about this before and I've really internalized this that there's not a good or a bad culture. Is it a fit for you is a different question. But is that a good, good or a bad culture? Is it a fit for you is a different question. But is that a good culture, a bad culture? I'm a little bit into. Can you, can anybody here, like make a decision, like let's go? But oh, by the way, I've also got three other things that I'm working on right now. So I just want to be up front with you guys that I'm looking to make a decision in the next two weeks. I'm happy to meet all 11 people if that's, because I think this is a cool role. Is there a way that we can figure this out so that we can kind of meet the finish line together Now?

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 25:39

that makes sense. We're saying the same thing. That's right. As long as you're clear about this is how much time I have to give. They say this is much, and then you match I will say this. It could be that what they're doing is giving you an indication of how they actually operate. You mentioned culture. There's some organizations where no decision is made unless it's truly consensus. So the interviewing process is is actually giving you some insight into how they operate. So why have you just interview with four people in the name of expediency, right? You get there and then, as you start, you've accepted the job, you're working there and you realize, gosh, every decision has to be done via consensus and it takes eight to 10 people to make a decision. I wish I had known that before I took this job 100%, which is why I brought culture up To your point.

Bob Goodwin: 26:30

These are very strong behavioral indicators of how decisions get made here, particularly important decisions, that's right.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 26:40

So to that point, I will tell you a funny one. So I talked to someone and I'll save the name of the company because I don't want them to get upset but this person said this company required that I give them a writing sample. Person said this company required that I give them a writing sample and in the process of reviewing the writing sample, this company has a very, very strong bias toward writing in the active voice, not the passive voice. So the feedback that this individual, my friend, received in the hiring process was the piece that you submitted was really heavily written in passive voice and we're an active voice company. And my friend said I just rolled my eyes and I thought what a stupid thing to say. And I said to him actually that was a gift, because what could have happened is you've left your job to come here and you would have been brutalized because you didn't write an active voice. Now you may think that's a silly point, but it's their point, it's the way they operate, and so I just got to throw in here. As you kick it back to you, be very careful.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 27:39

Maya Angelou, the now one of the greatest poets of all time, said when someone shows you who they are the first time. Believe them. It's one of her most famous quotes, and so if the company is telling you eight, nine, 10, 11, at every level, they're telling you who they are and you had better believe them and factor that. So don't think that a rejection is rejection of you. They may have just saved you a lot of painstaking Like think about you. You're working with people in your organization who have already been displaced. Typically, they can't afford to make another mistake If they go somewhere and it doesn't work out three months from now, when they come back to you. Now they've gotten job hopping on their resume. So they need to understand who this organization is, and that organization might have been telling you from the beginning we make decisions more slowly. Period. We're consensus only period. This is who we are, yep.

Bob Goodwin: 28:39

Well, to your point about mutual due diligence, johnny. This is why we all so really double down on know yourself and know what's really important to you. Because what we do see is that when candidates have been displaced, somebody pressed the pause button on a career and on their life and they get reflective. It's like you know, I haven't been happy there for the last two years and you know, would I have ever had the gumption to leave on my own? Probably not, but somebody did it for me. You know what?

Bob Goodwin: 29:09

Now I know more what I'm looking for, and we really try to encourage people to have the conviction of your conscience of like, what's what's important to you, not just at work but in your life, and how does this fit your life or not? And so to your well-made point around hey, this is mutual due diligence. Here you need to understand the culture and the way I say the real mark of conviction and clarity is knowing what to say no to. So a candidate needs to be able to say you know what this whole process. This speaks volumes to me about how these guys roll. I'm not going to be judgmental, I'm just going to say judgmental. I'm just going to say it's probably not a good fit for me.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 29:51

Not for me. To that point. I oftentimes, when you talked about wanting to discuss this, I thought perfect timing. Think about interviewing like dating. If you just think about it that way, it's okay the first couple of dates to spend time asking questions. It could be after the first day. Eh, there's nothing I like about that person, or they said that one thing. But do the same thing to your point in the interviewing process. You're interviewing, you're determining, picking up all of the cues, the words that are said and the ones that are unsaid. You should be looking at it every and the second date and the third date and the fourth date.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 30:31

None of us most of us don't rush in and make a decision about who you're going to spend your life with. With two or three meetings, you actually get more and more interactions, and that's why some people sort of lean towards some organizations, toward more interviews than less, because we're trying to get you to put the same level of due diligence. I like the way you're interviewing me and I'm interviewing you. So this is not just us rejecting you. You can reject us, but it's time to figure out who these people are because, as you know, the data shows, typically you spend more of your waking hours with your colleagues at work than you do your own family, just because the math says it right. You sleep, you work, and then you have free time, and there's just not a lot of free time to spend with people after work and sleep. So I just would suggest that people not see, yes, hands down. Companies need to do better, talent acquisition teams need to be more mindful, for all the reasons that I described in the beginning, the least of which is it's just not good practice. It's not 21st century practice to blow people off, not be responsive, to be mean, et cetera. Got it? Check, and you need to. All of us should be figuring. I love that idea that you shared about how to follow up with people Got it.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 31:46

The second thing, though, is maybe there's a gift and I keep using that term but every job that I have not gotten Okay, and these are jobs that I went after that I didn't get. At the time, I was annoyed because I'm competitive and I thought, if I'm here, listen right, this is Johnny Taylor. And then, um, it wasn't very long, typically six months, a year later, I'd say, gosh, I dodged a bullet like this. Was they the? They didn't reject me? Hell, I wish I'd rejected them, but some of us get so committed to wanting that job for financial reasons, for ego reasons, for whatever, that we are too not. We're not objective enough either. Would you say that, bob?

Bob Goodwin: 32:36

No, I would completely say that and I'm smiling while you're talking about being competitive, not getting a job that you really really wanted, and then being able to look back and go, omg, that would have been a disaster zone for me with them like, and the whole trajectory of my career would have been very different and and so I'm thankful for, like, how it ended up working out.

Bob Goodwin: 32:59

And you make a great point too about you know, between just financial pressure, ego, whatever else, fear, whatever else might be acting on somebody like you really want this job, but with a little bit of objectivity, a little bit of perspective, may not be the right fit for you. So you know, this whole candid experience it does go both ways, which is what you always kind of bring me back to, that there's not just one side of something. Having said all of that and I want to start to wrap this up here real quick but you know, what we know is that candidates just want a timely response, right. So and I know you've got a little anecdote on ghosting they want a response, they want a timely response, right, and they just want to be treated with. I think all that kind of falls under the headline of respect. You know so, but what happens in North America isn't what happens everywhere, so you want to share a little story.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 33:59

Yeah, so I was watching. I read something this morning that shared with me by chief of staff from an organization called Rest of the World or restofworldorg, and they were talking about people who would come to the United States on visas to work in the tech industry and then, when the tech industry laid off from India, by the way this article says they left India to come work for $160,000 a year. One person did and then they were laid off last year in the tech resizing, the tech industry resizing. They went back to India and the guy was describing not only the pay cut he had to take the length that it took. Forget interviewing eight times he had to were just a number in the US talent acquisition process. You really are in India, he said.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 34:53

The employers ghost there their entire persona during the interview process. Is we're doing you a favor because we have so many people. I got your Stanford MBA and engineering degree and everything, but we've got thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people who have similar degrees and backgrounds. Right, so it was really interesting to sometimes get reoriented, because we look at this a lot from a purely US-centric standpoint. General consensus general consensus there are exceptions is that the US talent acquisition process is actually a fairly dignified one, filled with respect, is that the US talent acquisition process is actually a fairly dignified one, filled with respect, very responsive exceptions notwithstanding, and that around the rest of the world, particularly where the economies are shrinking and they're far more volatile than ours, that you're treated pretty well in the US. So again, I'm not saying there's not room for progress, but I just think that we have to also be mindful of the fact that work to do, but we've gotten a lot better than we used to with respect to talent acquisition in the HR profession.

Bob Goodwin: 36:00

Yeah, yeah, and I appreciate everything that you shared. I guess I would sort of leave with that. Employers do have brands, and not just Walmart, macy's kinds of brands, but brands within the ecosystem in which they operate. Right, oftentimes these candidates are going to end up at a client, at a supplier, like they're going to be part of your ecosystem and you want to be well represented that, even though I didn't get hired by them, you know what they treated me well and I still respect them as an organization.

Bob Goodwin: 36:33

Blah, blah, blah. Same thing with referring talent. Same thing with reapplying. May not have gotten that one director of marketing role, but there's another role that's opened up and we want to make sure that if they were the you know, kind of silver medal in the last one, that they're still open for going through the process again and maybe being the gold medalist for this role. You know and again, johnny, this is your speech but just doing the right thing is always the right thing and you know giving people grace, that, on your point, talent acquisition, people are doing the best within. You know, not a lot of resources working, a lot of volume, often Right, yep, but at the same time, you know candidates are real people too, and you're just being empathetic in both directions, not me. Pathetic, is that pathetic? You know it is a great point.

: 37:26

Me pathetic, is that?

Bob Goodwin: 37:27

pathetic. It's a great point.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 37:30

Yeah, no, I really enjoy this topic and I hope we walk away, as you said, the practitioners on the phone, hiring managers. If you're not in HR, it's still every one of us. You make the point which is you're going to see these people again in some way and therefore, why not do right by people? Even if you, frankly, even if you never were going to they, were never going to be your customer or whatever, why get in the business of not treating people the way you'd like to be treated? Amen.

Bob Goodwin: 38:00

So I think I can't end on a better note than that. Johnny, great to see you, as always. Thank you for your wisdom. Everybody who's listening or watching the Work Wire this week, thank you so much. If you're on YouTube or your favorite podcast, please rate, review, subscribe and if you've got any ideas that you would like to see us cover on a future Work Wire episode, you can email me at bob at careerclub, and we would love to hear what you guys would like to talk about. So with that, johnny, I wish you well. Hope you have a great rest of your week.

Johnny Taylor Jr.: 38:27

You too. Happy New Year again, my friend, and to the audience, thank you so much.

: 38:31

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