Build yourself up and stop knocking yourself down; Featuring Hoda Tahoun

Today, we're joined by Hoda Tahoun, a global consultant in talent development, known for her expertise in personal development, especially in business and relationships. Hoda emphasizes the interconnectedness of different aspects of life, particularly relationships, which can significantly impact personal growth.

Hoda shares her daily routine, highlighting the importance of preparation and intention-setting. She starts her day with gratitude meditation and visualizes success in various aspects of life. This practice helps her maintain a positive mindset throughout the day, enabling her to show up fully for her family, friends, coworkers, and clients.

The conversation delves into self-love and its complexities, acknowledging societal misconceptions and cultural influences. They discuss the subconscious conditioning around love and worthiness, emphasizing the need to confront shame and take responsibility for personal growth. They explore how past experiences, particularly in childhood, shape beliefs and behaviors, and the importance of self-awareness in healing and self-love.

They also touch upon the reluctance some individuals face in taking action towards change, whether due to fear, shame, or uncertainty. Despite external support and inspiration, real transformation begins with an individual's willingness to confront their inner struggles and take the first step towards growth.

Overall, the conversation highlights the journey towards self-love as a deeply personal and transformative process, influenced by both internal and external factors, but ultimately driven by individual choice and commitment to growth.

Transcript

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Welcome to our relationship success. Show the place for relationship empowerment and actionable tools. So you can let go of old wounds and create happy, loving relationships. Uh, whether you're single, married, divorced, or anything in between. Set yourself up for relationship success. I'm Dr. Saara clinical psychologist, I'm consultant, helping business leaders and entrepreneurs to feel more connected and whole. Let's get started. Hello and welcome. I am so excited because today I am joined by Hoda Tahoon, who is a global consultant in the talent space, and she's absolutely phenomenal. The accolades, the achievements. I'm just so super honored to have her here. And she's huge with regards to personal development, particularly when it comes to business and relationships. So thank you Thank you so much for joining me. Oh my God. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited. Honestly, absolute privilege. And I know just before we jumped on here, um, we were talking a little bit about how so many different parts of our lives seem to be so integrated and so interconnected and relationships. Our romantic life is such a huge part and it can essentially either make or break us. So, so I suppose just to kind of, um, start off before we delve in a bit deeper, I just wanted to start off just really by having a bit more of a context in terms of what your day to day looks like, um, just as opposed to give the audience a bit more of an awareness in terms of how this fits in contextually. Yeah, um, okay, so how my day starts and goes by has changed a lot over the last few years. And I actually find myself thinking about the old self and the old version of me, um, quite a bit and comparing it to the woman that I am today and how I show up for myself today. The way I start now is with an incredible amount of preparation and intention prior to the day. So actually, my day starts the night before. So the night before, I am setting an intention to go to bed at a certain time to make sure, you know, mobile phones and laptops and everything, the screen time is off, just to start to prepare the mindset for a really wonderful sleep, because then that sets the day off at a great start on the next day. And then I wake up in the morning, and this is taking a little bit of work. I do not reach for the phone. So I don't start there. Yeah, that took a lot of work. A lot of work. We can talk a little bit about how I did that. And what I do is, um, I start my day with a gratitude meditation and with some intention about being grateful. What do I want the day to look like? Do I, and I sit there and I visualize all the different pieces of what the success looks like, the love feels like, the happiness looks like, the joy, the achievement looks like for the day, and, um, sort of get out of the door, you know, sort of get out of the house with that kind of mindset. Now, does it go swimmingly and amazing every single day? No. But at least I have the intention and then when sort of things, you know, shift and move around throughout the day, then I'm prepared because at least the mind, the mind is happy and I can kind of handle whatever happens. And that translates into how I show up, not only for my family for my friends, but also for my coworkers and my clients. Because they see the energy that I'm bringing to the table. And I can only do that if I carve that time out for myself. That is so, so beautiful. And I can't even tell you how imperative that is. And I would say. Carving out that time and protecting that time almost to a level where you're ruthless about protecting that time, I would say is an absolute necessity. Like, drinking water is a necessity, right? And it's, I think this is a conversation that I often have with my clients because the reality is that if you're not okay, You can kind of forget about everything else, right? If you're not centered, if you're not really connected to yourself, to what it is that you want, if you're not connected to your higher truth, if you're not growing in terms of your own being, if you're not grounded in terms of your self worth, sure, you can work on the relationships and you can dedicate your time to other people and you can graft and you can do this and this, And yeah, that that will have some effect to some degree. Um, but, but you're going to slump in the long term and it's going to kill you. It's going to be exhausting and you're just going to deteriorate. Yeah, it's like a slow death. Yeah, yeah. I, I've learned so much over the last number of years, and I think the two most powerful things I've learned about self love is that self first. is not selfish. You are taking care of yourself to then be able to show up for everybody else. So that was sort of, you know, one massive lesson. And as an empath and somebody who grew up in a culture where you're constantly thinking about other people and people pleasing, particularly in the Middle Eastern culture, that took a lot for me to be able to say, I'm going to put myself first. So that's number one. And then number two is that if your cup is not full, how can you possibly pour it into other people? And I always think of the examples that, you know, when you get on an airplane and they go through the safety guidelines and all of that, what do they tell you about the mask? They tell you to put your mask on first before you help somebody else, whether it's, you know, an infant or somebody elderly. And I think that that analogy is just so, you know, so relevant for life itself. How could you possibly help somebody else if you are not full and able to take care of yourself first? So. In the morning now, that time is now sacred and I love the word that you used. I'm almost ruthless about it. Um, and people think, oh, well, you must have so much time because I don't have children of my own. And, you know, I, I maybe have circumstances that look a little different. It can be 15 minutes. It can even be 10 minutes just to sort of set intention because people think that, you know, and you say that you meditate in the morning, that you're off, you know, sitting in some corner of your home, you know, you know, on, on, on all fours somehow, you know, sit cross legged and you're out there for two hours. No meditation can actually be really powerful in short increments. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And there are so many things that I want to pick up on and walk. you've just talked about, um, that I think would really resonate with a lot of the people listening. And one of those things is the people pleasing traits that come from the empath or, or, you know, they're quite, quite closely linked with the empath trait and part of it is cultural. Um, but I think some people would resonate with that regardless of what cultural background we come from. And. You know, something that I've spoken about quite a lot, and I suppose I just wanted to share it here and really think through it, is, you know, often the way that we develop certain personality traits or certain actions tends to be because of something that's happening in our subconscious mind. Okay, so our subconscious governs 95 percent of what we end up doing. And a lot of the time we don't even realize that we're prioritizing other people. We don't even realize that we're kind of ignoring our partner or we're ignoring our family member or the friend who's really supported us. Or, you know, sometimes we, sometimes we forget that we're even doing things that. a harmful for us. Well we might be aware of it but we're so quick to dismiss it because somehow we've prioritized this other thing. However way it goes, um, but there's something that we end up doing which ultimately sabotages us. In terms of our well being, in terms of our relationships, and we don't intentionally sabotage ourselves, but, but we do, right? And, and a lot of it is to do with what's hidden under the surface, and a, a challenge that I often come across is that people who are really high on the empathy scale, They're wanting to support people, they're wanting to help other people, they're wanting to maintain the connections, people who are people pleasing, they're wanting to make sure that other people around them are happy, because if they're happy, then I'm happy, if you're safe, then I'm safe, if things are okay with you, then somehow I'm miraculously fine. And, unfortunately, And I really do say unfortunately because you worked so hard to get to that state, right, but then that actually ends up keeping you trapped in a loop where you are hurting yourself more, you're not really testing out the authenticity of that relationship or that dynamic, because they don't see you for the real you, right? They only see this curated version that is created for you. by people pleasing while you're hiding the rest of yourself. Um, but yeah, there's a, there's a, there are a lot of subconscious processes that are, that are hidden in the background. We don't really assess, that we don't really explore. We're kind of hiding away and we go into people pleasing mode. And I was just really intrigued by this comment of self love because I hear it so much and it does get battered about a lot on the internet. Yeah. And, and self love, I, I love the concept. I don't like the execution of how it's done online in the, in the majority of times anyway, simply because I think the execution of it is a whole different ballgame compared to just the statement of you need to love yourself. And yeah, I suppose I was just quite curious about your journey because for you to get to this point where you are Ruthless and protecting yourself, protecting your time, shifting from those old patterns to a more empowered place. I mean, talk us through your journey. I'll, I'll say, um, you know, it takes, it takes a village. Um, I didn't, you know, do all of this on my own. I had some wonderful mentors, teachers. Um, practitioners along the way over the years that have brought insight to me about why I do certain things, etc. So that can look in the form of therapy, that can look in the form of acupuncture, it can look in the form of theta healing. Um, oh my gosh, like so many different modalities and I generally as a person, I'm quite open and receptive. To different modalities. And I say that I, whenever I talk with people about my own personal journey, I say, it's um, it's like trying dessert, you know, not every dessert is going to be or every modality is going to work for every person you're going to like, you know, the chocolate cake or someone's like the fruit tart or whatever it is, but at the end of the day, um, there will be some modality or form of therapy that will resonate for you and a practitioner or somebody or a facilitator teacher guide, et cetera. Yeah. That can do all of those things and it actually does start with becoming aware of what you're unaware of. So what you're describing around that subconscious that 95 percent that's actually almost like an operating system or a software that's running in the background and we think as human beings that because we have, um, a frontal cortex that is so focused and laser, you know, in the front of our mind. Okay. That is doing, you know, 5 to 10 percent of the work and it's really loud. We think that that's actually what's starting to show when in reality, and all the science now proves it and, you know, there's many teachers out there that talk about the science behind it. People like, um, you know, Joe Dispenza and a whole host of other people, but he's one of my favorites. Um, in order to change the behavior and be on the journey of self discovery and self love, you still, you have to start with being. Okay, and open to kind of looking at parts of you and understand, well, why do I do it this way? And why is that easier for somebody else than me? And how come this has been a struggle? And why am I still sort of attracting. X, Y, and Z issues, and you start to sort of see a pattern. And then you dig deeper and you realize that a lot of that is actually informed through behavior, through conversations, through experiences, very early child, you know, childhood years. Usually they say from about, you know, from your infancy until you're about seven or eight years old, and that becomes almost like a little bit of a blueprint. So, the first step is to sort of say, am I willing to look at the blueprint? And that's scary for a lot of people because for some people, they don't want to poke around in there. It could be very difficult. It might feel unsafe. I love the word that you used earlier around safety. Um, but that's really where a lot of the opportunity is for us as human beings to sort of, you know, crack open where there could be obstacles and then get to that path of self love. And I, I love your comment around. What self love is right now on social media. It's bubble baths and you know, getting your nails done and you know, all of these things. I think that that's self care. And it makes us feel good, and I think we should do those things if they make us feel good. But real self love is accepting who you are, all of you, the good, the stuff that maybe doesn't always feel so good, and say, I am more, I am enough, I am worthy, just because I am. Not because I am this person, or I have this job, or I have this husband, or spouse, or whatever it is. I am, and I truly love myself for who I am. And I will continue to sort of work on becoming a better version of myself. Um, but that's how I think about it. Um, yeah, that's how I think about it. I think that's, that's absolutely huge. And something that I would just tap into there is this issue around shame. Because I think love is one of the highest emotions that we can experience. And authenticity is also one of the highest as well, right? Whereas shame, if we were to look at the emotional vibrational frequency, I mean, shame is, is pretty much at the bottom, right? And What's really challenging, I think, with this concept of self love is that often people externalize the idea of love, or they externalize their self love being out there. So, for example, I'm good enough. When I have this job, I am good enough when I have this car, when I have this body, when I have, or if I do x, y, z, whatever it is, but, but ultimately there's, there's a, there's something outside of themselves that would then make them enough and worthy for that love. And often, even though they may not consciously realize it, right, the 5 percent isn't, isn't quite in gear with this, but actually there's something in the 95 percent under the surface where it's battling with this idea of shame. And shame in particular because shame is the emotion that says that We are fundamentally flawed. Like, I am fundamentally, at my core, bad. Regardless of how that looks, the bad looks, but there's something fundamentally wrong with me. Like, I can't, I'm just not allowed, just the way that I am. And shame is painful. Nobody wants to look at shame. Nobody wants to explore shame or sit with it or investigate. Nobody wants to do that, right? Because it's so, so uncomfortable. And so we end up believing those stories of, I am not enough. And then we kind of jump to, okay, well, I will be enough or I will be good, or I will at least escape the bad. If I, Achieve this thing, if I meet this marker, whatever the marker is. And that puts us in a really tricky place, particularly for people who've experienced trauma, right? And we've all experienced trauma to one degree or another, whether that be big T or little t trauma. And so we all have this hidden part of us that is deep in shame. And it's, it's a forever constant battle, and I think particularly when it comes to certain cultures, and I think, you know, uh, you and I coming from a Middle Eastern background, um, I'm proud to be Middle Eastern. Nothing wrong with that, but I also, but I'm also very acutely aware that shame is something that can often be handed out like candy, right? It's almost like it's, it's almost like it's a given and it becomes so ingrained within the culture. Now, again, I know I'm kind of doing a broad stroke here, but, but it can be so ingrained and, you know, I think the intention behind it is to change our behaviours so that we act. culturally appropriate, or that, you know, we, we behave in a certain way that's more acceptable. But fundamentally, it actually really destroys certain parts of ourselves. And, you know, it's interesting because I work with a lot of people who are, let's say, mid 40s, mid 50s, and they're on this journey of, who the hell am I? I'm still trying to figure out who I am. And it's laced with grief, because they're grieving for the past that they would have had. They're battling with this idea of shame. And, you know, some, one of my approaches is that sometimes we have to lean into the darkness. So sometimes we have to lean into the shame. in order to discover the light. And so the self love isn't about the parts of us that we really like and then just kind of really grasping onto them because we get positive reinforcement or we get praise from other people. It's, it's not about that. It's about actually looking at us as a whole, the parts of us that we perhaps are not very comfortable with, it's actually leaning into that and, and seeing the purity of it and seeing the innocence of it. Because we don't hold onto shame because were bad, we hold on to shame because actually the intention is that we want to be loved ultimately. And how innocent is that? Oh my gosh, there's so much to unpack with what you just shared. I've just uploaded just that. Because um, you talked, you talked at the start around the externalization of a lot of media, you know, that in, in so doing with that thought process, there's a condition, right? So now a condition has been created in order for love to show up. So I will feel enough, I will feel worthy, I will feel loved, etc. When? So there's now a condition. And that's where, or in their lives, a lot of problem because now you have now dictated for yourself unknowingly, most likely, that, um, there's an unworthiness or that you can only be enough loved, worthy, etc. Fletcher, one of those fun thing he has when in fact If you sort of pull that back all the way back to what we were saying earlier around certain things being learned and taught from a young age, there was probably some condition or some situation that was created, again, let's just sort of say, best case scenario, it was unknowingly by parents, you know, grandparents, school teachers, people who are caregivers, where they told that child, um, um, You will be great when you get a grade A, or you will be, you know, I will, you know, you're, you'll be a good girl, you'll be a good boy when you do this, this, and this, so now again, a condition has been attached, so somewhere in that subconscious, that person is running around with an idea that love is conditional, so that will then translate into other aspects of their life about how they show it for themselves, whether it's love, worthiness, etc. So it's, um, you're absolutely right. In order to kind of go in there, you're going to go into probably some very murky areas of your, of your subconscious and face parts of you that may not feel so good, whether it's shame, whether it's fear, whether it's anger, whether it's resentment and a whole host of other, you know, emotions that are, you know, they don't feel so good. But it's in looking in those areas and saying, there's a little boy or a little girl inside. There's an inner child somewhere that didn't get what they needed to hear. They didn't get, you know, a certain message, a certain behavior, a certain action or something like that. How do I feel that part of that little, you know, little boy or girl? Mine's a little girl. And that's where the healing work starts. That's where the self love starts. And just say. Okay, actually, she's loved unconditionally. She's loved whether she gets an A or she gets a B or an F or whatever it is. She's loved regardless of how she, um, dresses, how she talks, how she laughs. I still remember all these things, you know, that I heard my friends and I sort of just like, don't laugh too loud because, you know, good girls don't do that. Um, or, you know, don't dress in a certain way or don't play certain sports, all of these things again that happened many years ago. Um, so that runs around in your mind so you'd have to unwind that story and then retell the story in a way that is empowering loving and supportive for who you are today. Um, and I, I say this very openly with, you know, with friends is that I truly believe that parents Most of the time have truly the best intentions, but you know, nobody gave them a manual on like how to parent and I think people are still trying to figure it out. So it's not your fault. Um, what happened to you in those moments where you were very vulnerable and you were relying on somebody to take care of you, but it is 100 percent your responsibility to deal with it as an adult. And to figure out a path forward to heal yourself or be on the journey of healing. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I suppose just, you know, uh, the, the thing that you mentioned about parents having good intentions and, you know, I would echo that and it's, and it's not at all about blaming your parents, right? Because I mean, um, so, so this is my personal and professional bias, um, and I just need to note here, I'm not at all condoning abuse, um, but I think even when you've dealt with some really difficult circumstances, And, and somebody has been hurtful, your pain is absolutely valid, but to maintain in a loop of continuous blame and, and blaming the other person, what ends up happening is that you're ultimately handing over the power, your power to them, right? Because, and, and you're not intentionally handing over the power, but you are handing over the power because you're exerting all your energy on, on blaming them and you're not really taking committed action. So you're not taking committed action in terms of what you need, what would actually help you grow, what would actually shift you in the direction that would be most meaningful for you, that would be valuable to your future. Um, you're, you're almost getting entangled and stuck in this state where you're blaming them, they're the persecutor, you end up Ultimately being a victim to the actions and you're just sitting there hoping for the rescue. And, and the thing is, is that even if the rescue came, you might not necessarily like it in the format that it's presented, but also who knows if the rescue is going to come and who knows if it's truly going to rescue you in the way that you need, right? And so it's, it's, it's, yeah, truly, truly about taking on responsibility because you owe it to yourself. Yeah. Like, more than anything, you do owe it to yourself and just, just on that note, so I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts, what you may have seen with the clients that you work with, with regards to this attitude of taking on responsibility, because I suppose something that I see and, um, I'm gonna be totally honest, uh, honest and transparent. So I get a lot of messages, um, like emails and messages on Instagram, and I'm so honored that people are getting in contact with me. I truly, truly am. Um, but the, the thing that I've noticed a trend of and, uh, I, I, I, I'll be honest with you, I do find it quite frustrating, is that there are a lot of people who are really struggling, and my heart really goes out to them, but simultaneously, they're also really hesitant and really reluctant to take action to shift Or to move, or to change, and whether that be, you know, and I'm not saying that you have to work with me, not at all, like, you know, you can work with whoever, practitioner, coach, teacher, anything that would be most aligned with you. Um, but yeah, but yeah, I do end up noticing that I'm getting really frustrated, right, because it's awful that you're in this space. And. You owe it to yourself to grow, and, and at the same time, it's almost like there's this huge reluctance, there's this huge resistance and uncertainty, and it's almost like they're battling with themselves to even just take that first step. And like, I know in my heart of hearts, I know from personal experience, professional experience, that if they did take that first step, actually they would just skyrocket after that. But even taking that first step, just it's, it's, um, yeah, that, that feels like a point of tension, let's say. So a couple of things here. Um, I think it starts with a desire for change. And I think sometimes it almost has to get really dark for there to be a, an intention to want to find. And I don't mean that in a, you know, in a, in a mean way, I don't have a better or more specific word than that, but sometimes. You know, the person's kind of just got to go through it. Like, it's their journey. They will get to a point where they will be so tired, so hurt, so down that they will, that will force some sort of, what am I doing? How can this change? Almost like, Oh, my God, like, I just can't do this anymore. And then, you know, that's sort of one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum, which I sort of enjoy and encourage a little bit more is, um, Finding inspiration in someone that is maybe either in your circle or something like that, that then puts the curiosity to say, Hey, I've noticed that you are healthier. You are healthier. You are more radiant. You don't get flustered a lot. Like, I actually hear that from a lot of my clients, from my friends, from my colleagues, etc. And so After a while, people will get very curious and they will pull you aside. They may not, you know, kind of do it in a big forum, but in those moments of one on one, and this happens to me, Sarah, all the time, clients will ask me in a one on one conversation, whether it's a lunch or breakfast or Zoom call or something like that. That's the space now that's safe. It's a space that's sacred when you have that, you know, relationship that's been building people trust you for yourself, your kind, your honest, your transparent, you have to do all of that, that now has built a foundation of trust. So then people start to open up a little bit more, they start to ask you about your life, about your personal situation and everything else. So you talk about, you know, how you eat and how you vacation and how you work out and all these other things. Then they start to ask you about your habits. Well, how do you, what do you do? And going back to that, you know, that the tribe and it kind of takes the village. I have a whole slew of people that, you know, help support me in my own journey. But it is in those discussions where people actually do get very candid. Um, I find this is just over the last number of years that I've been doing, speaking more openly about this over in the workplace. I find that it is easier for women to connect with one another in a social or group setting and be open with one another. And I think part of it is just sort of the way women enjoy, um, having community. Men, at least in my experience, and maybe because it's a dynamic of, you know, me being a woman and them being a man, they will have that comfort and transparency with me one on one in a discussion. And then they will then start to mobilize and start to tell other men, again, usually in a one on one setting, where they're like, Hey guys, let's sit down and talk about this and that. I don't, I don't hear that so much. I think that's changing. I think this type of work and this type of conversation is becoming far more common. I don't want to say mainstream, but it's become far more common than it was even just 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. So there's also. More examples for people to lean on and say, Oh, he's doing that. Oh, she's doing that. Oh, this is happening. This is happening. And then that creates also some momentum, but it really starts with. The, it's going to come back to the individual. I mean, you and I, as much as we would love to love on other people and try and help them and steer them, et cetera, at the end of the day, it's their own journey and they have to take the 1st step. Absolutely. I mean, people. change for themselves, right? That's, that's ultimately, that's ultimately it. And it's interesting hearing the two ends of the spectrum. So it's almost like it has to be so bad that it, that you, you just have no other option, right? Like something's got to give, or you're in a space where actually you're just wanting to Grow even further. You're wanting to thrive even further. And I think, uh, interestingly with either end of the spectrum, there's always an opportunity for growth. And, you know, and there's something that I truly believe is that if you're not growing, you're stagnating in a way. Right. And sometimes there's nothing wrong with stagnating. Sometimes like if you're, you know, if things are okay, they're okay. And, you know, you're, you're bumbling about and, and that feels okay. But it's, it's really, I suppose it's just really eyeopening to see The different positions where people are at and the different motivators for people. And I know that I've had some clients asking me personally in terms of how my personal journey has been and how I've protected certain time for myself, or how I've navigated this. realm of self criticism versus self love and, and, you know, how do I develop healthier relationships? And I think the reality is that you can only ever support other people to the level of which you've grown, right? Cause you can never really support other people to be beyond your level of growth, like, or, you know, your personal growth. And so, and so, you know, and I ended up working with some people who are. Incredibly successful in their realm of work, really, really, truly inspirational and incredible business people, leaders, entrepreneurs, and even though they've succeeded so much. And I think in their minds, they kind of get caught in this trap of like, yeah, but like I've established something. Right. So like, I can't be that bad. And. Absolutely true. Like, you're not bad at all. Like, you have established a lot. Um, but I think something that, that they, you know, that unfortunately they fall into is that they get so good at intellectualizing. They get so good at being in their head. They get so good at, um, almost being in drive mode that they don't actually consider. The other parts of their life that they're not so good at. So, you know, often when I have people, clients who are operating at that level and they'll meet with me and they'll say, you know what? I've just got this tiny little bit that I just need sorting out. Like, just give me half an hour and I'm done. And I'll say to them, okay, cool. Let's do that. Let's begin with that. And they'll, they'll be so, they'll really intellectualize everything. And I can tell that they've read all the books, right? I can tell that they've watched a lot of YouTube videos. They've listened to a lot of podcasts. Like, I can tell that by the way that they talk. And my immediate response to them is like, I know that you're intelligent, but I actually don't really care about your intelligence. What I do care more about is the stuff that you're not so good at, that you're kind of hiding away from, and you know, it's almost like people get so good at reading that they just forget about knowing emotions, which is, you know, as human beings are emotional creatures, right? So, so I suppose just circling back. About how this really impacts people in terms of their personal life, uh, and how they are with their spouses, with their kids, with their family, with their friends, and, and, you know, the entire ripple effect, even with the colleagues and co workers, stuff that they, that they manage, it's almost like they've forgotten how to be Be with people and, and so they've operated so well, uh, on a, on a business level or on a project management development or whatever it is that they're doing at work, they've, they've gotten so good at that, that they almost assume that they're on par with other areas of their life. Whereas actually there's, there's a huge scope of growth there. And so, yeah, and so obviously just going back to, to myself and my professional journey, like I, I. I'm always a, a, a further developed from them or from that point, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to serve them really, right? Because to support them to grow their awareness, you also have to be more aware. It's hard for people though, Sarah, you know, it's hard to look at the places of, you know, one's life that maybe, uh, is not as successful. So those parts of them aren't successful or happy or joyful, et cetera. And then once you do have the courage to take a look at that. And let's say you also decide that you want to change it, then there's the process of actually changing it and doing the work and that's messy. And it's not always, you know, rainbows and sunshine and meditations that, you know, where you're beaming from, you know, sometimes that looks like, you know, trying or going through some difficulty to kind of deal with the pain kind of back to your point earlier around being in that darkness 1st. Um, I have a very dear friend of mine who does ice baths. And that's his method to be able to sit with. I've done them. They're not easy. You are sitting in the ice and your entire body and your mind is trying to tell you, get out. You are in danger and you are forcing yourself and you're saying, no, that there is some benefit to this and learning how to curate the thoughts in your mind, learning how to deal with the emotions as every part of you is basically being activated in a sense of danger. So, um, it's, I think. Each person's, um, willingness to go through discomfort. And to realize that actually through discomfort and through that type of growth, that there's really wonderful extension and wonderful joy that can be experienced. It's not linear. I know it's not sort of like a straight line. Um, I love 1 of the memes that's out there that kind of shows you what growth looks like. And, you know, sort of in your mind, you think it's like this, um, like, sort of a straight, you know, 45 degree angle. And then it shows you the reality. It's like this squiggly line with like, very deep dives all the way to my roller coaster. Roller coaster, but, um, what happens or at least for me, my journey is that now, when I go through things that can feel very challenging, I'm like, okay, what is this teaching me? Versus why is this happening to me? Oh, my God, I can't sort of take myself out of the victim mode and say. What can this show me that I maybe I wasn't aware of before? How can this help propel me? I am confident in God and in the universe that there's going to be a beautiful outcome to this, whether it's, you know, a week, a month, a year out from this 1 experience that maybe just feels, you know, a little, a little challenging and ultimately through that challenge. You know, your growth just, it's just expensive. Versus, you know, what you were saying before, when you kind of stagnate, you know, there's not going to be a lot of benefits in the population. No, not at all. So I suppose just shifting gears a little bit if it's okay with you is I really wanted to ask you, um, with regards to what you've witnessed in your workplace. So clients that you've worked with who have potentially, uh, grown so much in terms of their professional success versus people who may have grown, but then all of a sudden something happens and, and all of a sudden they've kind of dropped off the radar. And I was just wondering if you'd noticed anything with regards to how they are, what the differences are in terms of how they are. with themselves, how they relate to and connect to themselves, as well as their relationships with people at home, what their, what their personal practices are. I love this question. The way, so I spent a lot of time talking to very civic board members, CEOs, very high up in the, and over the years I've sort of, um, witnessed Um, there's been a lot of writing about this. This is not, this is not my observation. I just confirmed the observation that, um, many decades ago, leaders led with their guts. So, you kind of just, you kind of knew, you trusted your gut, you hired people because they had a lot of experience, and based on that experience, they kind of knew what to expect, etc. And then we went into an era, um, where people led with their mind. It was, you know, high intellect, people like Steve Jobs and, you know, um, Warren Buffett and all these other people like super, super, super smart and led by mind, mind, mind. And now we're in an era where leadership is from the heart. Um, and there's a vulnerability, and there's an empathy, and there's a transparency, um, that is very different. Now, it doesn't mean that leaders, they don't think with their gut and their mind, you know, because we have sort of those three very great brains, you know, like the brain brain, the heart brain, and the gut brain. Um, it just means that that is leading in many instances. And I think that's where we are moving in terms of society at large, and where I think the leaders of the future will stand out, because that Heart space that vulnerability that empathy is continuing to become a very important behavior, but also competency. So, if you didn't know how to do that, you're trying to figure it out. And if you didn't know how to do that, you're going to need to do it more and the people that the leaders that have spent time with that are leading with their heart. They are doing the work. Maybe they are not talking about everything that they're doing with their teams. But they are telling their teams in many instances that there's, you know, meditation that they're doing or openly talking about, you know, some of the physical activity that they're doing or they're acupuncturist. Or their Chinese, you know, medicine practitioner to get, you know, alternative herbs and spices or things like that. So, all of that today, I think, even if we were to say, oh, my God, even 5 years ago, 3 years ago for CEOs and presidents, et cetera to talk about that openly. They probably would have been criticized or like, oh, my God, that person's like. out there that they are doing those things, whereas now it's become celebrated. And I think in doing that, it empowers the team to show up individually with what's authentic for them, for their mental and emotional, um, and spiritual journey of healing. And I think that in itself is so fascinating because there's been a shift with regards to I'm going to bring up the topic of money here and, and, and I suppose attitudes towards money, because I'd say historically, particularly, I think, particularly with the mind era, um, you know, the, the target was always the financial outcome, or that, that would be kind of the, the main essence. Right. And I think now what's. been more discovered. Or, you know, yeah, I suppose it's been discovered, people are talking about it more, they're accepting the notion a bit more, is that the money will come as long as the commitment is there for your cause. So it's almost like the emphasis about the actual number has, has reduced. And partly that's actually because when you're leading with your heart and when you're really leaning into your vulnerability and exploring what's going on there, I think a lot of people have suddenly become much more aware of what the pound coin or the dollar represents in their life. And I think with financial targets, it's, it's so, so tricky because it's the only, it's the only external metric that we have that we hold value to. So the dollar is the thing that we hold value to, and I know other possessions, we hold value to it, but then again, it all relates back to the dollar, right? So, so, and whenever we think about our worth, We also then somehow seem to attach it to an external value, i. e. the dollar, the pound, the yen, or whatever it is. And, and so what's happened historically is that I think when people were less conscious when they were less aware, when they were less willing to really understand their own vulnerability, their own personal triggers, their wounds, issues around their self worth, they were hammering hard in terms of getting as much palm coins back in their bank account, right? And again, I'm not saying don't strive financially, you could totally do that, um, But, but the difficulty is that you, you would end up getting entangled in this really harmful state where you would kill yourself to be able to meet this financial target, or you'd be killing your team to meet this financial target, whatever the target is. And. You still would feel unworthy at the end of the day, you might feel good just for a little spike, you might feel good enough just for that moment, but then ultimately you would start to feel really bad about yourself because numbers are endless, right, they're infinite, you just keep going, and then everything else starts to break down, so, you know, you look at some of the most successful people who were leading with their head you. In that era, and you look at their well being, you look at their mental health, you look at the number of divorces, you look at the number of suicide rates, and it is exceptionally high. It's exceptionally high, and it's incredibly distressing because, you know, you're working for all of this, and what for? Right? The origin, the reason why you were working for all this, is because you wanted to feel enough. That's, that's, that's the ba if we were to really strip it back, the basis, the core was, I want to feel enough. I want love. I want understanding. I want appreciation. And in Newsflash, you're going to get those things via connection. But, but somehow, you know, people are in such a threat mode or they're in drive mode and they go down this journey, this path of achieving, achieving, achieving, in the hope that they will get the connection at the end of the day. But actually, by the time they get to the point of financial success or business success, they've lost everything as well along the way. And then that's really painful. And so then they're faced with the reality of, oh, my God, like, I've just killed myself to get to space. To, for this thing, for the connection, for the love, for the affection, for the family, for the, you know, all of these things. And then by the time they turn around and they look at home, that their home that they once built is no longer there. And, and that's filled with such turmoil. Whereas I think people who are now acutely aware of my worth is my worth and my business is my business. And, and they've kind of disentangled the two, that they're, they're much more capable of really doing the things that would support them at home, would support their well being, would support their relationship and, and really protect that. And so, you know, what, and, and actually that in itself gives them some baseline resilience to deal with hard days at work, right? So that actually they can just go ahead and do that. And that, and that much less likely to respond impulsively. So, um, if they've had a bad day at work, yeah, you're going to feel bad, but at the same time, they're less likely to enter crisis mode or to be super reactive. They're, they're, they're likely to be like, you know what? I just need to go home, have a night off. And then go back in the morning and I'm just going to restart or I'm going to be more proactive and and that's a far healthier space to be in because that's sustainable. Yeah, no, and I think, you know, you, um, you're bringing up some really, some really great points here because I think people now are looking at their lives in a very holistic way. So work is one component, money is a component, family is a component, community is a component, love is a component. It's all these different pieces and, you know, in today's world. And I think it will continue and the generation that's coming up, you know, sort of behind us, um, Gen Z and the millennials, et cetera, um, it's just going to be different. Like what they expect. Um, in terms of what will drive happiness and joy for them just looks very different than certainly the boomer generation. Um, and even, you know, the, the Gen Xers. So, yeah, it's a, it's a fascinating time in history right now to kind of see that evolution. And I think it's going to just prompt more of these conversations and more healing work overall. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so excited for Gen Z. I really am. Yeah. Oh, you know what? It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. And thank you so, so much for sharing so much. Oh, thanks for having me. It's been a true privilege. It's so wonderful to be on here and to have this conversation. I could probably talk to you for another hour. No, honestly, I really do appreciate it. All right. All right. Take care. Take care. If you liked this show, please do me three solids first, share it with a friend because if he found it helpful, I bet you that one of your friends will DT second subscribe so that you never get to miss an episode and third, please rate the show to help other people find life changing content. I'm on a mission to help as many people as possible, have a healthy and fulfilling relationships. So please help me in my mission.