Have you ever found yourself at a spiritual crossroad, questioning the direction of your faith journey? My friend Nick and I sure have, and we're opening up about it all—from the transformative leap into charismatic Christian practices to the poignant realization of our shared humanity. Our candid conversation traverses through the landscapes of varied Christian traditions, the vibrant power of prayer, and the allure of a more hands-on approach to faith that Nick, a pastor's kid, yearns for. We shed light on the beauty and challenges of the holiness movement and even share personal anecdotes about the enigmatic practice of speaking in tongues.
The soul often craves connection, healing, and a sense of belonging; this episode touches on these universal desires. I bring to the table stories from my time in the Air Force, revealing moments where the bonds of community provided spiritual succor and emotional refuge. We delve into the teachings of Christ on neighborly love, not just as a physical act but as an emotional and spiritual lifeline. Together, Nick and I unpack the intertwined nature of deliverance, healing, and the importance of confronting not only our physical ailments but also the emotional and mental strongholds that can so deeply affect us.
In the quieter moments of life, we sometimes stumble upon the most profound revelations. I recount the heartwarming yet comical tale of how technology led me to my wife amidst the solitude of military survival training. These stories highlight the unpredictable ebbs and flows of life, where isolation can carve space for personal epiphanies and the deepening of relationships. Whether it's finding humor in the toughest of situations or recognizing the transformation from loneliness to meaningful solitude, our exchange offers a glimpse into the impact of life's solitary moments and the wisdom found when we embrace them wholeheartedly. Join Nick and me as we navigate these waters, sharing laughter and insights from our spiritual voyages.
Have you ever found yourself at a spiritual crossroad, questioning the direction of your faith journey? My friend Nick and I sure have, and we're opening up about it all—from the transformative leap into charismatic Christian practices to the poignant realization of our shared humanity. Our candid conversation traverses through the landscapes of varied Christian traditions, the vibrant power of prayer, and the allure of a more hands-on approach to faith that Nick, a pastor's kid, yearns for. We shed light on the beauty and challenges of the holiness movement and even share personal anecdotes about the enigmatic practice of speaking in tongues.
The soul often craves connection, healing, and a sense of belonging; this episode touches on these universal desires. I bring to the table stories from my time in the Air Force, revealing moments where the bonds of community provided spiritual succor and emotional refuge. We delve into the teachings of Christ on neighborly love, not just as a physical act but as an emotional and spiritual lifeline. Together, Nick and I unpack the intertwined nature of deliverance, healing, and the importance of confronting not only our physical ailments but also the emotional and mental strongholds that can so deeply affect us.
In the quieter moments of life, we sometimes stumble upon the most profound revelations. I recount the heartwarming yet comical tale of how technology led me to my wife amidst the solitude of military survival training. These stories highlight the unpredictable ebbs and flows of life, where isolation can carve space for personal epiphanies and the deepening of relationships. Whether it's finding humor in the toughest of situations or recognizing the transformation from loneliness to meaningful solitude, our exchange offers a glimpse into the impact of life's solitary moments and the wisdom found when we embrace them wholeheartedly. Join Nick and me as we navigate these waters, sharing laughter and insights from our spiritual voyages.
Alright. So I know it's been a long time since we've had an episode of Fired Up, but it should not be this far apart next time. Today we're trying to turn a corner and maybe go a different direction, and I like to do some podcasts with some other people, so you don't have to listen to me ranting Today. I have my friend, nick, and we recently met on LinkedIn. We have some similar backgrounds with schooling and education, and how are you doing today, nick?
Speaker 2:I'm doing really well, man. I'm happy to be here and get to have these kind of conversations with you. This is actually the first time I've done a podcast. I've always been interested in recording these kind of conversations among friends and diving into the deeper things. Yeah, this is the first time, and so it's an honor, man.
Speaker 1:Dare I call you a podcast virgin.
Speaker 2:Podcast virgin yep, yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 1:So we were talking just before we start recording a little bit and you were saying about how you've got kind of a diverse background. So I have the opposite background as far as you. So I grew up mostly in the United Methodist before it went quite as virtue signaling and then I moved into Baptist circles. Primarily. There's some short stints and some non-denominational churches that were on the West Coast and were still pretty similar in flavor. But aside from that there's actually it was like one year I went to a four-square church when I was still traveling around the world and stationed overseas.
Speaker 1:But aside from that, I've come from the very non-holy spirit focused and I have slowly I jokingly said the other day I said the older I get, the more introverted I become, but the more spiritual charismatic I become, which is kind of a weird paradox. And the way I can really embody that enough is I'd rather just pray with you than listen to your excuses. That's literally what my discussion with some friends does. I'd rather just pray for you. I don't need to hear I don't hear it, let's go.
Speaker 1:It's a weird paradox to be in versus. You have been really on the opposite trajectory. In some ways You've come from a more Pentecostal side too a less I would say, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I come from, I was pretty much raised in as a pastor's kid in an Assemblies of God, pentecostal charismatic church, but it was still pretty, I would say, tempered, or it was subtle. It wasn't a whole lot of you know like there were no like three hour long services type thing. Everything was still very structured and scheduled and ordered but there was, you know, some wiggle room and preaching, you know, and they talked about the different kind of offices and the gifts of the spirit and things like that. But it was actually kind of rare that that was ever experienced as a regular part of service. Okay, actually, which was especially. I mean it was disheartening a little bit when you come to find out that, like when you come together with a body of believers, it's like everybody's supposed to bring their supply, you know, and like whether it's that's a song, that's an award of encouragement, that's teaching, that's a prophetic word for somebody. Nowadays it's like and even in the tradition that I grew up in, even though by title it's charismatic- so to speak Western charismatic.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean that, like every person was coming and bringing their supply. It was still very much a consumerist approach, like, hey, we market this brand, you enjoy what we're selling. Awesome, you come, you sit down, you partake of the product and then you go home and live a blessed life and I don't know it. Just, it was an interesting place to start, but I wasn't, I guess, content or settled with that. It was like there's gotta be more. There's gotta be more.
Speaker 1:Well, you'd written an article talking about how you'd grown up in the holiness movement, and that's a very generic, as I would hear you saying. It's a very generic word, of course, because there's a huge range.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's like a spectrum.
Speaker 1:There's the fringe, hyper-chirismatic types. You know I was talking to a church of God, ideas, assembly of God, their sister church denominations, yesterday, and you know they do a laying of hands, they ask for, they ask God for baptism of the Holy Spirit with revelation of speaking in tongues, and so I asked. So my bullet question whenever I'm speaking to someone with that is do you require speaking in tongues for salvation? Because now we're now.
Speaker 1:we're very hardcore, turning into a heretical teaching, and so that's my bullet question when I'm trying to get a pulse for like how holy the holiness is being interpreted.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, yeah, yeah, it's a great additive and like we see this in Paul, like you know he's like I pray in the spirit more than any of you guys. You know what I mean. It's a huge benefit to you and your spiritual development, but also like just tuning in to hearing the voice of God in general, but there's no such thing as a prerequisite for the salvific work of Christ.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah. So I've never spoken in tongues. Oh, okay, I'm totally for it. Yeah, I would love it. Yeah, never done it. I've been in deliverance for several years at this point and a lot of the other acting and the gifts of the spirit. It's really bizarre that I've never done that.
Speaker 2:It's crazy what it's. So this is a story and I haven't told you this yet. So I was in my junior year at Southeastern University in Lakeland, florida. It was like move in week, so classes hadn't started yet and I was hanging out in this like upstairs coffee shop and getting to know some new people, reconnecting with some familiar faces, and I met this guy. I want to say I actually shouldn't say his name, but I can't remember his name anyway, but so you can give him a fun name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, we're going to call him Steve Steve.
Speaker 2:Definitely not his name, but we're going to call him Steve, right? So Steve was opening up to me about like kind of what brought him to Southeastern and he expressed that he had come from, I guess, like I don't want to say like a form of Satanism, but like there was a lot of darkness in his life up until that point and you know he had started following Jesus but he was still in a way like internally tormented and tortured. And I could tell and I was like, hey, man, like you know, do you care if we just pray for you right here, right now? And you know, see what happens, see what the Lord does. And he's he looked at me and it was almost like his entire like face changed, his mood change. He's like. He looked at me, he's like you can try, like it was a challenge. I was like okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I ended up. I got up on like the bar top, like the like. There were like barstools lined up and I got up on the table and I was like to everyone in the coffee shop. I was like, hey, you know, we're always out the eastern, we all love Jesus, and my friend here needs prayer, can we just gather around him? And I was like you know, we're two or three, get it, let's get the whole room involved.
Speaker 2:Like you know what I mean, like let's, let's like he, just you should be yeah, but, yeah, but I was like I, I don't want to, like you know, try it, I don't know strong arm this on my own. I was, like you know, let's get as much People. Yeah, I like really just like community surrounding this person and, like you know, interceding for him. And, and so they did, they gathered around and everyone's praying for him. For a second I'm still standing on the table for some reason, just praying. And then I was like no, I'm gonna go lay hands on them. And as soon as I I got off the table and went up to lay hands on I touched him, he grabs me by the throat and throws me against the like, the wall, against the table. And as soon as that happens, that wasn't Steve anymore.
Speaker 2:That wasn't Steve. Yeah, he grabbed me by the throat and he's like and he kept like whispering, almost like in a different kind of voice. He was like I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna kill you. Yeah, kill you and as soon as I heard that, my Instinct kicked in and I, like, put my hands behind my back and I just started praying in tongues. Wow, and as soon as I did, he dropped to the floor so you put your hands behind, so you surrendered physically physically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't want any kind of. I didn't want it to look to those around me, but also I didn't want him as a human being to feel like there was any kind of physical Aggression or overpowering, or I was trying to, you know, like war in the flesh, I guess, so to speak. And so I put my hands behind my back and I just started praying in tongues in his ear and he fell to the floor. That's awesome. And I got down on the floor, I laid my hands on them and I just like started speaking life and truth and love over, and yet, like just his identity as a son of God and he got a lot of freedom, that that I mean. We were praying for him for over an hour and it was beautiful. He's, you know, he's crying.
Speaker 2:He's obviously you know but you could tell there was a weight lifted off of him.
Speaker 2:Yeah and so I say it's, it's. It's not a prerequisite, obviously, for life in God, but it is such an incredible tool, especially when you come into the situations where it's like, hey, I don't even know how to pray for this person, so I'm being, I'm getting death threats from the demonic. But I do know that when I pray in the spirit, I'm praying the agenda of God and it's, it's, it's like apparently the spirit in him heard what I was saying and he responded to it and it was just like he surrendered by falling on the floor and yeah, man, it was. It was a really beautiful moment. I haven't that's probably the most Remarkable or noteworthy experience I've had when it came to Intercession or dealing with the kind of like demonic, like blatantly demonic altercation.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah, and it was like all right?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess we're gonna start classes tomorrow you know I'm gonna sleep great, right yeah but that was. That was a really Unexpected but beautiful experience, especially seeing they. Like you know he, he got some freedom that day.
Speaker 1:You know that's awesome and it's and that was in Florida.
Speaker 2:That was in Florida.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was in central Florida and and I asked I say that because I've I've recently met with some leaders of a church and there are people that believe especially that they're gonna listen to a podcast like this there's two, two obstacles you deal with when it comes to any type of spiritual warfare intercession, because it's just targeted prayer, that's really confess your sins one another and you'll be healed, like that is and that is the spiritual application of that in real time with your experience.
Speaker 1:The it only happens overseas idea and the Right, it's a mission trip only time around here. Yeah, I was told, yeah, which you know, I've traveled extensively around the world In my career in the Air Force and I can tell you that the biggest, most clear thing I ever got out of all that besides the amazing food was people. Are people? No matter? It is so Incredible how similar no matter where you go right.
Speaker 1:There's, there's emphasis in different ways, but when it comes to just daily life, right people are people and so this, this weird idea that it only happens over there wherever they're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, regardless of the nuances of society, culture, background, upbringing, race, gender, whatever, like, there is a common denominator of like. We're all human beings made in the image of God, with complex soul, mind, emotion, spirit, you know, just body, and yeah, it's, it's, it's a human endeavor to pursue, but also like to aid in the holistic healing of Our neighbor you know that's that's, you know, when Christ says love your neighbor as yourself, like that's?
Speaker 2:that's like, how do you love your spirit, how do you love your, your, your soul, your mind, your body? You know, it's interesting because I thought I had Connected to that was like we read the Gospels and he talks about, like you know this, this commandment, like if I were to sum up all the commands, if I were to sum up the law, the Torah, it would be to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Right, mm-hmm, but in acts, after the Ascension, the only command that they tell people is hey, love each other, because in fulfilling one you fulfill both right you can't like.
Speaker 2:That's why you know John writes I think it's first drawing talks about like the difference between darkness and light, and in in God there is no darkness, right, and if you say you love God, then that looks like something in the way that you love your brothers and sisters around you, mm-hmm, and I think whether it's deliverance, whether it's some form of inner healing, and when I be, my inner Healing is like going through a process of identifying trauma, allowing the Lord to come in and speak to that trauma, and also like Confessing things. So confessions and aspect, but also Forgiveness.
Speaker 1:That's huge right, that's so those are spiritual strongholds and that, yeah, that's how they're so intertwined, right, like I, I may use the word deliverance more than healing, but I firmly believe that they're intertwined and you cannot pull them apart, right and we need freedom is healing.
Speaker 2:Healing is freedom right you know what I mean. You're free of a sickness, of disease, whether it's.
Speaker 1:Jesus casting out infirmity was healing right, simultaneously right as deliverance right.
Speaker 2:Well, and also, like you have this story of, you know, the guy that's on the map, brought by the few friends lower down for the roof, and Jesus not only addresses the physical Issue but, like he offers forgiveness first, like he deals with the, the heart first, he does both like and I think, because, like you said, they are intertwined that's the. The endeavor of ministry is to not only speak in minister to, to people's bodies or, you know, people's physical or temporal situation or circumstance, but also to the hearts of people because, like, so the heart of a person Really is their soul, right, like I mean.
Speaker 1:However, you know, that's why I said I, we were saying earlier, like it's, if you have a problem, it's one of three of those things. It's either your emotions, your physical or your spiritual self, because you're trying to in God's image, and so 33% chance that it's one of those and so, and then they overflow, right, like, how often does someone have, let's say, they're struggling with depression or anxiety or something?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm it'll manifest. Now they have IBS, now they have digestive problems, now they have. So it's. It's an emotional problem kicking over to the physical. Ask right, and it could be spiritual simultaneously right, yeah, it's a Spirit, soul and body.
Speaker 2:Soul encapsulates mind-willing emotions, right? So yeah, spirit, soul and body, and yeah, I mean it's the same thing. Like, even like when you uh, you know, take it off of work because you're you're sick, you have a fever or whatever, like you usually don't feel Emotionally like happy, joyful, peaceful, you know what I mean Like not naturally at least, and so it's. It's To me that's just a signpost pointing to the reality that, like the way that your, your physical health is so interconnected with the health of your mind and your emotions and also your spirit, like they are all All Interconnected beautifully, such a degree that you can say that, like, all three of those are me.
Speaker 2:Simultaneously right the same way that, like you know, father-in-sir is Simultaneously God. One Union, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, yeah, man does not live on bread alone, right? And so I think of Jesus being driven into the wilderness and miraculously surviving 40 days without food, like that Is not natural, right? So I mean it's a miracle. That's really essentially the first thing, first miracle that Jesus, the first miracle that Jesus has in recorded in scripture is Is working on himself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say creating a space for to be worked on.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like it's like I'm driven by the spirit, absolutely, but then, like it's that kind of solitude is creating a space to essentially receive the call to. You know, his three year ministry. Yeah, I mean like there's so many like levels and layers to that story. But I actually want to go back real quick because you brought up what it says in James about like confessing to your brothers and sisters, about and then you'll see, yeah, you'll be healed, it's.
Speaker 2:I told my buddy West last night at a Bible study that he's like I want to do confession and think you know he's like the way I interpret that is just like I'm telling the truth.
Speaker 2:I'm telling the truth to my brothers and sisters so that, like I'm being honest and being vulnerable, transparent, fill in the blank about who I am and what I'm going through, whatever in this season, absolutely, and there is healing in that. But like one thing I told him I was like well, and it's also an opportunity for the Jesus in you to extend forgiveness to the parts of me that need it or are now open to it. Now, obviously, like we are, like we already rest in the fact that, like we are forgiven. Right, it's not like, but it does talk about you know and we went into this with Matthew 18, you know it's like you can, you can't truly say you've received forgiveness if you don't then extend it to to those around you. And I think confession is a space where you get to practice extending forgiveness even though like you weren't the one that was wrong.
Speaker 2:You're like I can see my brother strongly hate, just so you know. Like rest in the fact that you are forgiven and there is healing in the fact that you basically brought to the light will be in the dark.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, because it'll be forced Otherwise. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or yeah, it'll be messy, it'll tell on you.
Speaker 1:And I think really a big part about what you're talking about is that that you know the community were required to have, biblically, that God calls us to not, to not isolate ourselves, which is exactly what Satan tells us to do, and we have a tendency to want to just run the more sinful we've been acting and then we just further and further into quenching the spirit, into gravity and so on.
Speaker 1:And you know, I kind of compare it to it's it's like a windshield on your vehicle as you're driving through and you're just picking up dirt and grime and dead bugs and all this stuff. Okay, and to wash it clean, the windshield is always going to be the windshield, but it can carry a lot of a lot of grime with it. And so the power in confessing in front of one another and the way that you're, you're discussing is it pulls people out of isolation because they think they're the only one struggling with this idea or this problem. And it really you were. Constantly when I do deliverance, I tell people Mike, listen, you're not special. Yeah, you're not the only one struggling with this.
Speaker 2:It's part of the human condition. Whatever it is you're, yeah, now the nuances of your situation might be unique to you and your experience and obviously, like as an individual, you might process those differently than anyone else on the planet. But by and large, whatever it is that you're you know you're struggling with is like it is part of what is the Asti's? There's nothing new under the sun, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, do do we? We hear those words, but do we believe them?
Speaker 2:And our action and and, and that's that's how easy it is to believe that lie. It's like, once we've stumbled in this particular way or fell into temptation, it's like, well, then the accuser comes to this is just you, because you know you're a piece of junk, and so on and so forth, and everybody else is on a different level than you and you're obviously the one that's dealing with this or this habitual sin or whatever, and you can't break free of it and like that's just like the enemy reinforcing what he tended you to do in the first place.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, to lock it in because, yeah, there is free like. Because, once it's brought to the light, shame has to flee, and I think that's a big part of like. Shame can only thrive in isolation, surely, and community is that which, over time, over progression, the shame begins to strip off of you.
Speaker 1:Right, and that that comes a lot from being part of a group which takes a lot of emotional effort. Yeah, like to to. Actually, it's so much easier to sit home and watch TV or or binge watch YouTube or whatever your vice is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you'd be like well, I'm watching sermons. Yeah, great Right. However you're called, you know, to assemble, and it's great that you, that you did that, and so where I wanted to kind of transition with this is is what? What do you think is the longest that you've ever been alone, like flat out alone, or when have you felt either, or most isolated?
Speaker 2:Um, all right, I'm going to give you the honest answer, but it might open a can of worms.
Speaker 1:Um, we're here for, yeah, what's listening?
Speaker 2:The yeah, the most alone that I ever felt and it was because I was the most disconnected, I disconnected myself from any kind of real healthy community because of my own shame was immediately after my divorce.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that psychologically the divorce is considered the most difficult thing for a human being to experience, second only to loss of a child. So I mean you're at the top of the trauma scale with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, fantastic, happy to be here. My name is Nick and I'm a alcoholic, yeah, but no. It was very traumatic and and, yeah, and it was also very hurtful to uh, to my soul and my spirit that I bought the lie and I let shame rain as part of my identity for for some time and I totally isolated myself and it wasn't until I ran into my mentor and his wife at a wedding and they invited me to move out how interesting that you would be healed at a wedding or that was the encounter that like it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, yeah, it was an invitation back into community, back into like a place to get healthy, and so that that encounter at the wedding was like it was the first step in on, yeah, a new path, a path towards immersing myself in community and allowing those layers of false identity and shame to come off naturally, just because I'm in an environment that's accepting, loving and also bettering me and growing me in Christ.
Speaker 1:And transparent. I think it's the yeah, the big part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause that can't happen if there is no vulnerability or openness or any kind of transparency.
Speaker 1:Do you think transparency and trust are intertwined?
Speaker 2:Yes, my mentor told me this quote, but I don't remember its origin. But to be somebody's friend or to say that I'm your friend, I know what hurts you and yet you trust that I won't.
Speaker 1:Right, that's any relation, so I think they are going to.
Speaker 2:Right, and so I do believe that, like, whether it's you know, you use the word transparency or vulnerability, openness there is power in that and I think it is intertwined with trust. That's how you kind of cultivate trust you have. Every relationship is a risk, and so to say that you trust somebody, you had to have first taken that risk Right and said, you know, like hey, also acknowledging the reality that because we're imperfect and flawed, that we're going to hurt each other. But can we trust that, because we're both following Jesus, that there's going to be reconciliation if one of us does fall short, if one of us does wound the other?
Speaker 1:Right yeah, right yeah. When I met my wife, we met online when it was in 2008, when you know, this is two years after smartphones really hit market or whatever.
Speaker 2:Sure Back when, like razors were cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it was iPhone 2.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're like the iPod touch and just become iPhone. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you know one of the things that that she said stood out to her, because our life is full of I will never. I will never be a pastor, I'll never live on the East Coast. Hers were I'll never marry someone in the military, I'll never. You know all these things and they've come to fruition.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:However, I called her after our first date and the funny thing is the only reason I actually had an opportunity to meet her.
Speaker 2:How pause. How long did you wait to call her?
Speaker 1:I called her on my way home. She lived an hour and a half away.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, times were different. I didn't have to play as many games.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was no, like there's no three day rule. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she said, or I told her, I said you know, I said I had a great time. The only reason I got to meet her was because I used to load cargo planes and then I was responsible for the passengers and the cargo and things and then flew around the world and I had ripped a hole out of a Blackhawk helicopter, like I mean full hole.
Speaker 1:I forgot to take a chain off and I ripped a hole out of it when I was lowering it. So I had to go through a re retraining process. Sure, and it gave me enough time to be home. I was gone like 300 days a year at that point, but, because of the fact that I broke, a helicopter, gave me the opportunity to have a dating life. Hmm, weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so and and wifi wasn't everywhere at that point either. Right, and you know, my wife went to an assembly of God University in Washington. However, she's very Baptist, it's kind of funny so they would make fun of her for not speaking in tongues and not doing charismatic practices and things, and and so I'm like you know I was. It was totally just going in the gray, but I was like you know, I'm not sure that there's going to be internet access or anything. I'm like you really just need to give me your number. And so she did, and that was other was internet. Everywhere I went, it wasn't you know the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely can't use that line now.
Speaker 1:I tell you yeah, and so on my way home, I had taken her out to dinner and we went bowling, which I recommend is a really great date activity. Yeah, because you can talk the whole time, it's fun, slight, there's food, it's it's open and bright and it's it's got a good energy about it, sure. And so so I'd taken her bowling and we went to the old spaghetti factory, which used to really like a lot. And then I'm on my way home and I was like listen, I had a great time. I really like you. I just need you to understand. I'm in the military, I'm deploying in three months and if you can't handle that, we need to cut it off now. And that was one of the things that she will testify is like one of the most transparent, truthful, honest things that I had said from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Right from John Street.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that made me stand out to her and because of that, you know, here we are 16 years later and it's just, it's funny to see how that all of her never got put aside because because of someone really willing to be vulnerable with them. Then I went home and told my roommate I'm like I'm marrying that girl like first day and I said I bet you a case of Mountain Dew, which is like currency to me.
Speaker 2:I love Mountain Dew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like I bet you a case of Mountain Dew. I'm going to marry that girl. I never got my Mountain Dew.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know I should have, but she did marry the girl, so you did win something, yeah.
Speaker 1:So for me, as far as I'd being alone for long periods of time, I, I, you know, I'm not sure it's.
Speaker 2:Nestle healthy.
Speaker 1:I'll go on seven eight hour long hikes by myself. I love spending time in nature. I hear God's voice most clearly through that. But the thing I'm thinking of was I went through prisoner of war training, prisoner of war training in the Air Force. They're not allowed to break anything, but they can definitely backhand you and make you very uncomfortable and they scream and yell and you're, you're dehydrated, you're completely going hungry.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're. You're just completely so. I'm not entirely sure how long I was even in prisoner of war training. I mean you, you're running away from the bad guys. Eventually they they roll you up and you get caught and they put you in a prison. They put a hood over your head and you get locked in like a closet and they tell you to stand the whole time. I think I was like 18 I must have been 18 years old at that point. I listened to them. I tried to stand for like three days and I kept pulling out an Imaginary rolling chair that I wanted to sit in and I'd sit in the follower and then stand up again. Like, really, what you're supposed to do is resist and sit down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the whole time and then hopefully they don't catch you or whatever and there's like this, this music that's playing. It's like a baby crying but it sounds like really evil and it's on. It's like backwards and there sounds like weird, like Jack-in-the-box kind of sounds. Yeah and it's like a 11-second clip and it's on repaint for over like three days. Super Wow. And they like bring pizza and everything and you can smell it, and I mean wow and so.
Speaker 2:So yeah, they're torturing all the senses right simultaneously right.
Speaker 1:And so they pull you out and they start interrogating you. But I was alone a lot during that time, you know. So just being around another person, kind of like, spikes your, and you're either supposed to stay in your circle, which means that you just like you only talk about certain things, or you're supposed to go on wild tangents, which is really easy for me. Mm-hmm you know, and, and these guys talk with like Russian accents and they do these things and it's a fake country.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so. So you're talking to them and you're like man, You're making me lose my marbles right now and they're like marbles and like oh yeah. So kids in my country right these glass things.
Speaker 1:They're different colors and there's cat's eyes and then you like a cat and then you just like Trill you know you just going the rabbit trail, yeah, but so there's there was a lieutenant ahead of me who was part of my group and he was getting interrogated and this guy this guy is like oh, I see you're wearing a wedding ring. He's like yeah. He's like, what is your wife's name? He's like wife, oh, and, by the way, you can totally mess over your friends and you can send personal information ahead and give it to the interrogators. It's a wicked off thing. So like I mean, you can, you could like give them the profiles and everything, yeah, and you can just feed it to them when you know your friends are there and they will use it. It's pretty messed up in a funny way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean and so so I wouldn't be able to subject myself to that willingly. So the fact that you did I mean Good on you. I guess I mean and so he's like.
Speaker 1:He's like what is your wife's name? He was like wife because he's in a circle. He's like what does wife do? He's like whatever the hell I tell her to do.
Speaker 2:And he's like that's his character, that's the character you're playing a role, yeah, so he's like.
Speaker 1:He's like, like, what he's like? Make me a sandwich, bring me, tell a paper. Whatever I say, and the guy you know this entire. He's trying to break the interrogator to make him laugh and come out Right, and it's very real. When you're there, you don't have a problem believing it's real. Yeah, so when a grown man backends you, it's pretty real. When they strip you down naked, it's pretty real.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he's like, he's like. So what? What do you wear at home?
Speaker 2:It's like mostly wife beaters and he was like the most sarcastic and I just start rolling, laughing, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:And then they came and beat me and locked me in a miniature box for like I don't know how long. It was worth it, it was the funniest thing. But so I had weird isolation experiences like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I had it in water survival. They they leave you out in a little one-man wrapped. You're floating around in the outside Pensacola, florida, off the coast. You're just floating around, no one in sight, and it's just you and you're in this dumb little raft by yourself, or I don't know how long. I was like forget this, I'm going to sleep. Yeah, I just went to sleep and I woke up and someone was pushing me with a stick over the side of a boat.
Speaker 1:When they came to recover me, Yep yeah it's not anything like your, your isolation that you were just describing, but I've had some weird isolation in that, that sort of way that is.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to me like how, even when you're being interrogated by, like somebody that's playing the role of, you know the enemy the enemy, yeah, the opposing side, that on some level you're just grateful for a human interaction to like actually Laugh at the absurdity of what's being said and what's you know being dead Well being you know done to you or done in front of you or whatever, because you know in the back of your mind, you know it is all training, yeah, for what could happen.
Speaker 2:So you know that you, you can resist. You know the temptation to, you, know whether it's give information to you, know the other side or whatever, but yeah, like there's still a part of us, it's like that's still a good joke.
Speaker 1:I'm not encouraging that, but it right in the moment. It was quite funny, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's all you had known was like darkness and isolation. So any kind of like humanity at that point, any kind of human expression was like oh my goodness, like. This is somewhat refreshing, you know, even though it's dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just rolling that back, thinking about Jesus being alone for 40 days.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Just the insanity, challenges of being alone. I mean I don't know. I kind of want to finish this episode right there, but I'm just thinking through like maybe in a minute We'll talk about or like transitioning from.
Speaker 2:How do we transition from loneliness to solitude?
Speaker 1:Hmm, look at that, you're so deep. All right, you.