What is Complex PTSD? | with Jennifer Ginty

Key Takeaways:

-  Anger as a secondary emotion to fear. 

- Complex PTSD develops out of experiencing trauma on a daily or regular basis. 

-  The benefits of Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DPT) for reducing anxiety and  various symptoms of stress and trauma.

Speaking to Jennifer Ginty about her experience with childhood abuse,  we highlight  the complex world of dealing with C-PTSD. She peels back the layers of how repeated trauma shapes one's emotional landscape and relational dynamics.

In discussing the deeply embedded fears and self-doubt that results from childhood trauma, Jennifer enlightens us on the transformative power of therapies like EMDR and DBT, offering a testament to the importance of a strong therapeutic alliance. We further discuss the  fundamental protective nature of anger and, how Jennifer's invention,  My Moody Monster, can be used as a tool to help children express and cope with their emotions.

Jennifer provides practical tools and coping strategies that can help with recovery, sharing innovative methods involving My Moody Monster , the Crayola Model Magic, alongside the DEAR MAN communication technique, which together can be an excellent resource for those seeking to express and regulate emotions.

Resources

Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving....- Pete Walker

Trauma and Recovery- Dr. Judith Herman

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts- Dr. Gabor Mate

The Body Keeps the Score- Bessel Van Der Kolk

How to Do the Work- Dr. Nicole LePera

Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems- Dr. Frank Anderson

Healing Trauma- Peter Levine
 
DBT Skills Training  Manual- Marsha M. Linehan

DBT Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets- Marsha M. Linehan

The DBT Workbook for Teens... Techniques for Overcoming Stress and Negative Thoughts- Richard Bass


Follow Jennifer @mymoodymonster

Moody Talks with Jennifer on YouTube

My Moody Monster on TikTok 

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Kertia's Email: discovertheothersidepodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

Kertia : 0:00

This conversation that I had with Jennifer Ginty, a mental health advocate, covers the topic of childhood abuse, and what I'd hope for you to take away from this conversation is becoming aware of complex PTSD, which stands for complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and to be aware of how it shows up in our lives, in our bodies and in how we experience and deal with our emotions. Now, complex PTSD is different from PTSD that most of us are already aware of in that, while PTSD deals with the mental disorder that results fromcing a specific traumatic event that is, a single event, for example, like a car crash, complex PTSD is the result of a person experiencing repeated trauma over a long period of time, trauma that is a part of your daily life that can last for months or even years or even years. So this conversation gives a perfect example of CPTSD because it addresses a repeated, prolonged trauma, that is, childhood sexual abuse. Now, while symptoms of both PTSD and complex PTSD can overlap, it is important to understand that complex PTSD is harder to identify and treat because the circumstances that led to the presentation of the symptoms are not always obvious. So, because of that, cptsd is often misdiagnosed as ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, as ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety and other mental health disorders.

Kertia : 1:48

Now, some examples of how complex PTSD might affect you are the ability to pay attention, difficulty regulating your emotions. You might have angry outbursts or periods of intense sadness. You may disassociate completely, tuning out of the environment around you. You may experience sleep disorders, lack of trust in relationships, even when the person has not proven to be untrustworthy, and you might even try to avoid relationships. You may also have a pattern of being in unhealthy relationships. You may experience low self-worth, having a persistent negative perception of yourself, and you may even self-harm. You may engage in high-risk behaviors and you may also experience hypervigilance, like you're always on edge, or maybe you're always expecting or waiting for something bad to happen, as well as having the persistent belief that people are bad and that the world is an unsafe place.

Kertia : 3:03

So these are just a few symptoms, a few examples of how complex PTSD can show up in your life, in your body, in your ability to emotionally regulate and in your mindset. And these are all stress responses that occur because our brain, our bodies, are in that state of trying to protect us. So I urge you to follow up on this with your own research, and I've given you a head start by abuse. That's a touch in that a little bit. I'd like to know what were the fears that came up for you when you were going through that.

Jennifer Ginty: 4:10

Okay, yep, so my abuser was my father, and you expect a parent to take care of their children rather than to instill fear and anger to instill fear and anger. So during the time that I was growing up, I was always in fear of, you know, messing up in some way or even getting into a fight with my brothers, because my brothers would get a lot of you know the abuse and I would feel terrible about it. So I would like throw myself on top of my brothers to stop it. And you know so. There was a lot of fear throughout my daily life and it didn't stop when it all came out. So my brother told his tutor about the abuse and the you know the everything happened.

Jennifer Ginty: 5:03

My father left, but we never felt safe because there were really no guards there for us. He was supposed to stay away, but he really didn't. He'd come over and continue to put fear into us, even after we had talked about it and had started a criminal suit against him. So the fear was very, very potent during that time and it causes, when you're in, complex PTSD, which means that you're living your trauma day by day, as opposed to PTSD, which could be one or two situations that happen, that cause it. Complex PTSD is that you're steeped in your trauma, in your fear, and coming out of my childhood I learned that showing fear was not acceptable.

Jennifer Ginty: 6:08

So I would go to a secondary emotion and it would be anger. So my primary emotion would be fear, but because I couldn't show fear, especially in a situation with an abuser, my next emotion would be anger and I would use that to hide the fear that I had. And it continued past when my abuser left our home, into college, into my 20s, work life, that kind of thing. When you're steeped in it for so long, you don't automatically say, okay, well, I don't have to fear this anymore. It's in your brain, it's in your body. Your body is feeling that same trauma. Um, and it can be like that. You know, it could be a snap and it would come back without any true, you know, true necessity. Even so, fear is something that I grew up with from the time that I was just a little child. I don't remember how back, but you know, probably since I was a toddler up until I was a freshman in high school, living with my offender.

Kertia : 7:29

That is really tough. I experienced a some level of childhood abuse as well. For me was being blamed, being blamed for what happened to me and being punished for it, and it doesn't make sense. You know, I was raped. I was a child, I was eight years old and my cousin was much older and I was thinking like I'm going to be the one that's in trouble. You know, it's kind of weird thinking about it, because the opposite of that makes sense, but in my brain at the time I thought that I would have been the one that would be held responsible for this.

Kertia : 8:32

You know, my family dynamics wasn't the greatest at the time either, so I didn't feel safe trusting to tell an adult about the abuse that I experienced. I didn't have a trusted adult that I could explain this to. My relationships at the time with my mom and my stepdad was very precarious. It was unstable in a lot of ways even at that time. So I didn't have an avenue to kind of express myself and really be open about what was happening and what was going through.

Kertia : 9:27

I remember thinking, even by the time I was a couple years later, let's say between the ages of nine, nine, 10, 11, you know, and you start learning about body parts and sex at in school. I remember another thing that came up for me is just like oh my God, like this person could have given me an STD. Now imagine a regular child at that age, between the ages of nine and 11. You want to play, you want to have fun, you want to do all the things Right, and my most important concern at the time was I hope I didn't have an STD from what occurred.

Jennifer Ginty: 10:18

Wow yeah, a few years back. That's strong, that's strong and that's it's so scary.

Kertia : 10:26

Yeah, and that was a huge fear for me as a child and so I always grew up having even into adulthood, I was always that person that I was always getting tested. You know what I mean? I always wanted to be tested for STDs, I wanted. I was so paranoid, I was always paranoid, like I carried around this paranoia for years, right, so my fear, it didn't show up. You know, yours showed up as that secondary emotion, anger, but mine showed up as a huge paranoia around my body, right, and a huge fear of men. You know, I grew up being afraid of men and I didn't realize that until I was in my adult relationships, my intimate relationships as an adult, my adult relationships, my intimate relationships as an adult I didn't realize that I had a fear, a deep fear of men. Until, you know, whenever we had issues in those relationships, when we will have arguments and things like that, my mind will go to this person could hurt me or I will have a fear that they will hurt me in some way. And I didn't start understanding where this fear came from until I remembered the abuse as a child, because it didn't happen one time, it happened a few times. So for me, that is how my fear showed up, right, A fear around what will happen in relation to my family dynamics. What would the parents do? What would my aunts, how would they react? Will they say that?

Kertia : 12:20

I remember one of the reasons why I had that fear about telling my family is because another little girl had complained that this man touched her and she was completely invalidated. Right, he completely flat out denied it, said she was lying and that she's a liar. She was 12 at the time. I remember she was 12. She said that he touched her. He completely denied it, called her a liar and everyone believed him.

Kertia : 13:15

So there was that too. Yep, right, so no one believed her. Yep, right, so no one believed her. So how are they going to believe me? Right, and men, and then the fear of what is happening in my body as a result of this. So that was mine. It's really heavy and that's why I asked, because I want to know, because you know, we see these things all the time in TV and the news and you hear people coming out saying, oh, this person raped me 20 years ago, and a lot of the times like, yeah, we know that there are people who come out and you, they tell false stories, but a lot of it is also true, right, and those people come to get involved.

Kertia : 14:12

Yeah, and those people actually get invalidated a lot of the times, but from a standpoint of someone who I didn't tell my family about this until just before COVID.

Jennifer Ginty: 14:28

Okay.

Kertia : 14:29

And this happened when I was eight and I'm 35 this year.

Jennifer Ginty: 14:33

That's a long time to sit with it and, you know, not get validation from the people who were supposed to be protecting you.

Kertia : 14:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jennifer Ginty: 14:45

And that's what gets me so upset about there's right now currently they're in my in my state there's a uh a case where a daughter went to the hospital and um reported on her father and the court ended up giving the father full custody of the two daughters and no custody to the mother.

Jennifer Ginty: 15:11

And this is the type of thing that really gets a fire under me and starts up that advocacy part for me, because I went through so much in that system when I was 13 years old until I was 19. It took that long to put my father in prison and he only spent four years there. So there was a point where I had to go in front of a grand jury and talk about explicit sexual abuse for me to be believed that he touched me, that he hurt me, that he harmed his own daughter, and at one point one of the lawyers asked us to not report a certain like physical abuse. That happened because they didn't think that it would help the case. But it happened, it was real. Why would we not say that that was real?

Jennifer Ginty: 16:16

You're turning it around and saying that we were lying about something that very much happened and very much hurt us as children. They just wanted an easy win is what it came down to. And my state has lousy, and that was the 90s, that was the early 90s, and what I just told you is happening right now is still happening in my state and it's straight up disgusting. So it lights a fire under me to get out there and to advocate for children and to believe children when they say that something that serious has happened to them. Do you really think a child is going to be able to make that up unless it's being fed to them, which most times that is not the case at all? Yeah, I'd say a very small, small percentage of children have been coached on what to say, so children need to be believed when they say something. They're not making this up, because how can a child make that up? They don't know that right?

Jennifer Ginty: 17:33

So I think it's very important that we get that word out there, that children don't lie about the things that happen to them, and to believe them.

Kertia : 17:45

Yeah, so true on all different levels. You touched on complex PTSD, right. I want you to talk a little bit about that and how, because I know it shows up. Of course it shows up differently for everyone, right? But from your experience with it, how can it show up for you? How did it show up for a very long time and I was completely unaware of it, like I didn't know. I had no idea that I was experiencing complex PTSD until I came across it by chance somewhere. So I kind of want you to get into that a little bit so that I don't know. Maybe if there is someone else out there experiencing complex PTSD and they're completely unaware of it, then this might give them some insight.

Jennifer Ginty: 18:53

Absolutely so. I'm blessed to live close to one of the premier mental health hospitals in the country McLean Hospital and I have spent inpatient there and I've also done outpatient therapy there in groups. And the first time I was taught about complex PTSD as opposed to PTSD, the social worker that I was working with really gave a great definition of the two, and so what she had told me PTSD picture that you were in a car accident and it was a really, really, really bad accident and you had the fear afterwards that would happen again. You didn't want to get into a car again. You didn't want to drive again. You didn't want to get into that situation again. You didn't want to get into a car again. You didn't want to drive again. You didn't want to get into that situation again.

Jennifer Ginty: 19:50

That is a type of PTSD, and that type of PTSD over the years can be lessened, it can be coped with, Whereas complex PTSD is that you've been steeped in your trauma. You have lived in that trauma for years. That could be childhood, that could be domestic violence, that could be military, that could be very many different situations. So that's how I was taught. What complex PTSD is is that it's pretty much in your bones, it's in your body, it's in your head, it's in all the places that are our lizard brain, because that's what we were taught every day. And you had asked me about how I felt as a child, the fear that I felt. Well, that fear was an everyday thing, that pretty much just seeped into my body. And I don't know if you've ever heard of the book the Body Keeps the Score. That is pretty much complex PTSD. Your body is living that trauma over and over because it lived it every day for a good period of time. So complex PTSD is. It's really a whole different animal in the end. That I don't even think has been fully realized. I think it's kind of new to people because I never heard the term complex PTSD until probably six or seven years ago and it's not even a valid diagnosis. Ptsd is the diagnosis and complex is just something that psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists use to determine and differentiate between the two. Yeah, so it's.

Jennifer Ginty: 21:46

I think that's a really important thing to understand for people that complex PTSD, and when people use that term, it means that this person has lived a significant portion of their life in fear, in trauma. So when you ask, how does it show up? For me. It shows up for me in the sense that I second guess myself a lot. I fear that I am making the wrong decision when, if I use my intuition correctly, I'm doing what needs to be done for me, for my children, for whoever is involved in there.

Jennifer Ginty: 22:29

But that fear shows up in the background of am I, you know, am I choosing the right thing? Am I good enough to make a decision the right thing? Am I good enough to make a decision? Because I was told as a child, I was told almost daily from my abuser you're fat, you're ugly and no one loves you. So to hear that for a good portion of your life, it comes up in your regular everyday life in that sense of second guessing yourself mistrust. You don't trust anyone in your life, even if they've proven to you over and over again that you can trust them. So I think that the fear for me is always in that background, always on, and it's a part of me that I need to heal. So I work with family systems, internal family systems, and we talk about different parts of yourself and there's a part of me that holds on to that fear and doesn't let go of it and needs to be talked to and, you know, made to feel safe.

Kertia : 23:54

Yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 23:55

And when we do that, which I continue to do I've been doing this for years and years and years. Like I told you before, I'm almost 50 this year and I still work. I have to work really hard. I was with my therapist yesterday and I was doing EMDR work for trauma and it was really hard and it sat with me for the rest of the day. It's complex. It's complex in the sense that it can show up at any time, it can sneak up on you, it can blast right into your face.

Kertia : 24:38

And you have to learn the skills that feel right to you to cope with. Yeah, exactly that, Because that is something that I've experienced as well. That fear never left me right. I just found better ways to deal with it or found a way to move through it. Or sometimes I need someone else to help me to move through it, Right?

Jennifer Ginty: 25:03

So yeah, I totally get that Finding that trust. The person that you trust the most to do that too is. I mean, this is I've gone through therapists throughout the years, but my therapist is the therapist you know. I trust her. I know she's not going to let me get away with anything, which is awesome, right, because sometimes you try to run away from it or you try to cover it up and she knows how to call me on it and I trust her for that. She's not feeding me any lines. She's not telling me it's all okay. She's telling me the truth and that's what helps me to trust her telling me the truth, and that's what helps me to trust her.

Kertia : 25:49

It's so helpful when you can find that therapist that you click with, because it takes sometimes it takes a while, and I know it's easy to give up and say you know some people they go to therapy the first time or maybe even the first three times and they don't feel like it's a match and they feel like, oh well, therapy is not for me, it's never going to work for me and sometimes really, you just haven't found the right therapist.

Kertia : 26:13

Sometimes you just haven't found someone that you really connect with and it's just trial and error. So I definitely encourage anyone who is experiencing any sort of trauma or PTSD or mental health challenges to definitely seek therapy. I love that you also mentioned anger as your secondary emotion, as your secondary emotion. I don't think a lot of people are aware that some of the emotions that present themselves outwardly, that are visible, that are more visible to us, that sometimes or most of the times, actually it is secondary to the actual emotion, the real, true emotion that you're feeling. Can you just touch on that a little bit and give us some insights on that?

Jennifer Ginty: 27:11

Absolutely so. This is what I learned from a therapy called DBT dialectical behavioral therapy and it is a therapy that was created for people with PTSD, and one of the main coping skills that they have is called check the facts. So this is how I learned about primary and secondary emotions. So checking the facts is a way to look at the situation without an emotion attached to it, exactly what happened and matching the emotion that goes with the actual facts. So if I'm feeling anger in a situation where I'm actually, I just felt fear and my secondary emotion clicked in and said no, no, no, no, no. That's not acceptable. You can't feel fear. You can't show fear. You're going to show anger. You're going to feel anger about this.

Jennifer Ginty: 28:10

It's protective Secondary emotions are 100% a protection that your brain has to get you away from the much more traumatizing emotion that you've had with it. So it's really important to understand that the situation fits the emotion that you feel. I have a couple of different YouTube videos about checking the facts and it comes with worksheets and all that kind of stuff, because it's my number one favorite.

Kertia : 28:44

I saw that I watched your. Yeah, I checked out your session with Moody Monster.

Jennifer Ginty: 28:51

First of all, I want to talk about that for a little bit my Moody Monster and how that idea came about. For you, of course, yes. So this is my passion project. I love my Moody Monster so much.

Jennifer Ginty: 29:11

So one day I was in a therapeutic group. I was really, really frustrated with my symptoms, my PTSD symptoms, my depression and I said I wish I had a monster that I could rip apart and throw across the room and bang against the furniture. And the people in the group were like, yeah, you should have that. So I went home and I really kind of thought about it and I am not a seamstress, I am not a tailor but I pulled out fabric and I put together this crazy looking monster. And what I did with the monster was I made all of their parts rippable so you'd be able to tear the whole body apart the arms, the legs, the head and be able to do whatever you would need to get out, get all of that frustration out, and then, when you put them back together, you can think about what happened and you know what? What skill can I use next time? That may work better in this situation.

Jennifer Ginty: 30:07

And I really thought it might be a great tool for children, because children so when I was a kid and I know most people I talked to who weren't even in traumatic situations in their childhood were always told to hide their feelings. Don't be an angry girl, don't get people upset, don't, you know, make people uncomfortable with your emotions, and that's just, you know telling children to shove them all down. And that's where people can most of the time come up with secondary emotions because of that being pushed, all of their emotion being pushed down, because they've been told by adults that they're not allowed to feel that in public.

Jennifer Ginty: 30:50

So I thought that Moody would be a great toy a great, you know tool for children to be able to get that physical frustration out in a safe way and then be able to talk to their caregiver, their parent, your teacher, therapist, whoever they need to talk to about it, talk about what happened, what they can do next time to feel less frustrated. And it took me a while. It's been four years that I've been working on Moody. I ended up going into an accelerator program and really building up the brand and I absolutely am so happy with the final product, and families, therapists, teachers, have had a great experience with them as well.

Kertia : 31:40

I love it. I absolutely love it because it's so important for kids. My daughter she has huge emotions and I can just imagine what that would do for a situation when your child is just completely dysregulated and they're experiencing these big emotions and they're having this outburst. And it's hard as a parent. You get frustrated as well because you kind of feel helpless, you're not sure how to respond. And this is so helpful because, as you said, when they can rip the monster apart and you can help them. Even you told me the last time putting that monster back together and then using that as a tool to also communicate better, right, and as a tool to actually express the emotion that the child is experiencing. So I really, really love that. Yeah, how do you think you know from your experience with therapy, with creative, moody and even as a mom, right how can we communicate our feelings better, especially when it comes with our kids? How can we make that work?

Jennifer Ginty: 32:59

Well, I think, first of all, we need to have our own coping skills. When it comes to frustration, and I think that's I wish that I had had the coping skills that I have now when my children were smaller, because my oldest had a lot of behavioral problems. He was, you know, he was very. He had big physical outbursts. You know, he was very. He had big physical outbursts and afterwards he would get this shame spiral because he had done this physical damage to property or whatever his property, my property doesn't matter and then he felt terrible about it, he felt awful, and that was, I think, something.

Jennifer Ginty: 33:42

That's where shame comes in and that's where toxic shame comes in, and that's a whole other thing we could talk about. So I think it's important and I think toxic shame is another big thing in parenting as well, where we feel badly all the time that we're not a good parent, yeah, so I think that it's most important for parents to have their coping skills before they can even start helping their children with that. And that comes down to hey, maybe you rip apart Moody, because also you're showing the behavior that. Yeah, I'm angry right now and I'm taking it out the way that I'm supposed to.

Kertia : 34:22

Yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 34:23

So I think that, yeah, I think parents need to understand that all of their children's feelings are valid, and they have to understand that about themselves as well and give themselves grace, and then they're able to help their children in the same respect. They can teach them the coping skills that work for them, or they can find other coping skills for them. But, moody's a great like jump off board to be able to talk to your kids about what happened, why they are feeling the way they're feeling and what can we do next time to make you not feel so badly.

Kertia : 35:06

I love Moody Monster, so can you just quickly tell the listeners where they can get Moody?

Jennifer Ginty: 35:12

Absolutely, so. You can get Moody on my website at mymoodymonstercom, and you can also buy him through Facebook or Instagram, so they're available in that way as well. They also come with their own bag, their backpack, to carry them around with. Maybe your kid ripped them apart, doesn't want to put them back together again, throw them in that bag. And it comes with a coloring book about feelings and how Moody can help.

Kertia : 35:42

I love that. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. That is such a great tool. It's such a great tool to just get those big feelings out, especially for kids and even for adults.

Kertia : 35:56

Because, honestly, you know, the thing that boggles my mind sometimes is that we expect children to know how to navigate their big feelings and not overreact and not have these outbursts and you know what I mean and express themselves and you know what I mean in the appropriate manner. But we don't know how to do that a lot of times, like adults yeah, adults, a lot of us, we, there are just a whole bunch of dysregulated adults just walking around with minimal emotional intelligence, with minimal connection and awareness to themselves and off themselves to even figure out how they're feeling half the time or even acknowledge how they're feeling. A lot of us have no idea what to do with our emotions, idea what to do with our emotions, and we too have outbursts. Or it might not show up as extreme as a three-year-old or a five-year-old's emotion, but it does show up in other ways. It show up maybe in a passive, aggressive way, or just you being a complete asshole to someone.

Jennifer Ginty: 37:23

that really didn't deserve it.

Kertia : 37:25

You know what I mean. So, and that's how it shows up. It shows up in other ways, and I don't know why we have these huge expectations of these tiny humans when we still can't get our shit together as adults.

Jennifer Ginty: 37:41

Absolutely, I 100% agree. As adults, absolutely, I 100% agree. And you know, as I was saying about, like the shame spiral, we also live in a cycle of emotions. We start off with what like lit, that first emotion, and then we may move to a secondary emotion and cause a big stir and then go to that shame, and then it just starts to happen again and again, and again and we get ourselves into these cycles that really aren't necessary because they're putting a lot more stress on us than I think we even realize. You know may not even be putting any stress on the other person if there is an interpersonal communication issue, but you're causing yourself emotional pain.

Kertia : 38:29

Yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 38:31

So I think it's really important that we all start to learn these skills that are going to give ourselves the grace that we need to stop that cycle.

Kertia : 38:51

Absolutely, and I want to ask you what coping mechanisms do you currently use to help you manage your PTSD and depression?

Jennifer Ginty: 38:59

Well, I do use a lot of my DBT skills that I've learned over the years and I highly recommend that people look into DBT. There's an actual workbook. It's a huge workbook but it has all of the skills in there and how to use them. Worksheets, all this kind of thing, but the ones that I use the most. As we talked about before, check the facts I also have. They also give you a lot of great physical um skills that you can learn.

Jennifer Ginty: 39:27

I learned I actually learned um at mclean hospital, this great uh physical coping skill where you get this crayola model magic and you put um essential oils in it and then you squish it up and around so it gives you oh there's a video about it on YouTube as well that you know it's this kind of modeling clay that you can pull apart. It's kind of like slime, but then you put the essential oil in and you can smell it, you can feel it and it takes your brain out of that current distress because you're using your senses to take you out. So I did that. I also have, like there's a frozen washcloth thing that you can do if you have to take yourself out of the distress where you go and you grab it and you work on pulling it apart and it's really hard because it's a wet frozen washcloth. So you can have physical tricks.

Jennifer Ginty: 40:28

You can have coping skills that you can bring with you, coping skills that you can use in the moment, and there's so many of them that not all of them are going to work for you, but some of them will and it's freeing. It's freeing to know that you have a toolbox of skills to help you through it. Other really good ones for, like interpersonal communication, is there's one called Dear man and it's like a. You know, a dear man spells out a bunch of different skills that you can use, or you know the way that you work through that coping skill and it really helps you to be able to calm yourself in the situation but also advocate for yourself. Not backing down, not being afraid to say no or to say no this is what I need you know. So that's another great tool I highly recommend taking a look at if you have a lot of problems with standing up for yourself in situations.

Kertia : 41:36

Yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 41:36

Because it's saying don't cause more strife between you, but also you have a, you have a need. You can communicate that need and not back down from it in a in a positive way. So that's another great skill that I absolutely love to do.

Kertia : 41:56

That is so good. I saw you talking about the dare man on your YouTube video and that was such I was just thinking this is so cool and it actually helps to take you out of your head right, to take you out of that head space and to like, really get you thinking about the scenario as it actually is, not just based on your own perception, because sometimes when we have misunderstandings that lead to these huge emotions, a lot of that is just based on our perception. You know we all perceive the same situation in a different way. Of course, yeah, you are valid in your anger. You are valid in your pain, like whatever emotion you're feeling are valid in your anger. You are valid in your pain, like whatever emotion you're feeling. It's completely valid, but it's just to kind of get you working through the emotion. I thought that was a really good tool to just work through, work with and work through it, right. So, yeah, I definitely love that that. That is a good, that's a really good tool. Where can people find that dpt resource?

Jennifer Ginty: 43:12

so they're all over the internet. If you look up dbt, you can find a lot of great um, a lot of great pages, a lot of great people that talk about it online and talk about the different skills. But the workbook that Marsha Linehan, the person who created DBT, has available is on Amazon and I think it's only like $24. And it's a humongous book of all the skills goes through and one of the things I do in my moody talks every month. The beginning is I talk about the words that describe an emotion and putting them on a scale of intensity. So you understand if you say this word out loud like I'm so blah, blah, blah. Whatever that it shows, it shows the intensity of how you feel and in that book it gives you all of the words that describe each and every emotion, gives you all of the body sensations that you may feel when you're in that emotion. So it's full of a lot of great information and I can send you the name of that book.

Kertia : 44:26

Yeah, that'll be great If you want to put it in as a resource. And it's on.

Jennifer Ginty: 44:30

Amazon. Like I said, I think it's like $24, but it's packed full of information.

Kertia : 44:37

That workbook. Is there one specific for children, or can the same thing be used for kids?

Jennifer Ginty: 44:45

I wouldn't be. I don't think that it would be good for kids, but there may be kid resources out there for it. And you know what that lights? A flame under me to see what I can find as children's resources. Yeah that's really important.

Kertia : 45:02

That could be really cool. I mean, there should be something. I'm not sure because I haven't done the research myself on that yet, but you know, when you're talking about naming the emotion and and things like that and putting it on a scale, I can. I can. I can see something existing somewhere in similarity or inspired by that for children. I'm pretty sure something like that is out there. So I'm definitely going to look into that and see if I can find anything and also put that as a resource in the show notes.

Jennifer Ginty: 45:42

I think that would be pretty cool as well, and you know what, if there isn't one, I'll make one. That's something that I would love to put together, actually, I think that's a fantastic idea. I started.

Kertia : 45:54

Moody.

Jennifer Ginty: 45:54

Talks off because I didn't have the product and I was like, well, how do I keep everything up in social media with people seeing and understanding? So I was like, well, how do I keep everything up in social media with people seeing and understanding? So I was like.

Kertia : 46:06

Well, why don't I teach my skills, the skills that I've?

Jennifer Ginty: 46:08

learned over the years and so it's kind of based on my adult you know viewpoint of it. But yeah, there are a lot of and you know what. There are child psychologists, I'm sure, who use DBT for children.

Kertia : 46:21

Of course that have been through trauma so yeah, yeah, so yeah, of course, I'm sure it's more appropriate for them to understand, you know, like using more simplistic terms to name their emotions and things like that. You know that are more appropriate to their age, so I'm pretty sure that they do use it. I'm just not sure if they have physical material out there for children using DBT.

Jennifer Ginty: 46:45

So I'm definitely going to research that. Yeah, I have a friend whose daughter is a teenager and she found DBT to be really, really good for her. So, as a teenager, I think she probably ended up using more of the adult resources and materials, up using more of the adults, you know, like resources and materials. But, yeah, teenagers are using the DBT workbook that they've created for adults and, yeah, there has to be an adaptation for children.

Kertia : 47:15

Yeah, there needs to be. If there isn't yet, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 47:20

I will take that on Right, you should.

Kertia : 47:25

You definitely should. That would be so cool. Is there anything else that you would like to share about your experience, your insights, anything that could be helpful to survivors out there?

Jennifer Ginty: 47:42

Yes.

Kertia : 47:42

Yeah.

Jennifer Ginty: 47:43

Healing is not linear. I say this to myself every day. Healing is not a straight line, and always give yourself grace in those times where you feel like you've taken a bunch of steps back, because that's just the way that our brains, our situations, that's what we're put into as a human being. Don't think that you've, you know, not gotten far enough with your healing, because healing not only is not linear, but it's not immediate and it's not even. I mean, as I've said, I'm almost 50 years old and I've been working through this since I was 13. There's always things to learn. There's always ways, new ways that you can learn to cope with. The old ways aren't. Don't give up on yourself. Never, ever, give up on yourself. There is always a way to move forward and it's okay if it feels like you've moved back.

Kertia : 48:50

You know, we have this thing where we get so hard on ourselves because we're like I thought I already worked through this. You know, I thought I was getting better and then suddenly you have one bad day and then that completely throws you off and now you feel like you've taken 10 steps back, when actually we're just having a bad day. And you know, because you're healing it doesn't mean that you're fully healed and you kind of go all over the place sometimes. Sometimes you have a great few months or even a great year, and then the new year comes and you're a mess, yep.

Jennifer Ginty: 49:31

It all goes to shit.

Kertia : 49:33

Yeah, so it happens that way and just to remind people to be gentle with themselves and have compassion with themselves and, as you said, healing is not linear, it can be up, down and sideways on any given day and it's just to remember to be patient and don't be hard on yourself.

Jennifer Ginty: 49:55

It's a rollercoaster, baby. Yeah, it's a rollercoaster.

Kertia : 49:59

Don't be hard on yourself, and you still have a lot more to learn and a long way to go, and there are more good things to come, even when it doesn't feel like it.

Jennifer Ginty: 50:13

Absolutely.

Kertia : 50:20

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