The Other Side of Fear
The most important life hack you'll need: A Holistic Guide to Get You Unstuck.
Self improvement topics covering mental health, trauma, limiting beliefs, mindset, spirituality, energy healing, mindfulness, and purpose.
The Other Side of Fear explores thought provoking stories about the types of fears that are triggered by our individual insecurities, conditioning and past traumas. We examine the role of societal conventions and how they function as a strong determinant, in how we often choose to address our most personal struggles.
Our guests discuss how they navigate through various challenges, while taking ownership of their true desires. Giving you a gentle push, to live in a way that honors your authenticity. What does it mean to lean into fear? How can we recreate our stories and embrace the unknown? What does the other side of fear look like for you?
This is a reminder that, your fears are as big and as scary as you allow them to be. Your purpose is greater than the fear that hinders you.
The Other Side of Fear
Neurodivergence, Inclusivity & Imposter Syndrome | with Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- The notable physical differences between the brains of neurotypical and neurodivergent people.
- Being aware of the rights and laws that protect or support neurodivergent persons and people with disabilities.
- The importance of conversations around sex-ed, dating, consent and healthy boundaries with neurodivergent people.
Dr. Matthew Zakreski, a clinical psychologist specializing in neurodivergence, illuminates the unique challenges and misperceptions encountered in a world tailored for neurotypical norms. Ever wondered how sensory-friendly environments could transform public spaces like airports and stadiums? We touch on initiatives such as the Toronto Raptors' new sensory-friendly space and the vital role these accommodations play in fostering inclusivity.
This episode also delves into the emotional complexities parents face while raising children with unique sensory systems. Dr. Zakreski emphasizes personal growth and the importance of seizing opportunities, as the best time to do anything, is right now.
Highlighting the dangers of not setting boundaries, we discuss the importance of creating alternative narratives in therapy to combat negative thought patterns and promote self-worth. Listen in on Dr. Matt’s remarkable contributions to the field and learn how to stay connected with his ongoing work through the provided links in our show notes. Whether you’re neurodivergent, a parent, or simply passionate about fostering inclusivity, this episode offers invaluable insights and practical advice.
Check out Dr. Matt and his work ⬇️
Connect with us!!!
Instagram @discovertheothersideoffear
Youtube The Other Side of Fear Podcast
Kertia's Email: discovertheothersidepodcast@gmail.com
I recently spoke with clinical psychologist, dr Matthew Zekreski, who is an expert in neurodivergence or people with different brains Think ADHD, giftedness, dyslexia, autism, etc.
Speaker 1:And he speaks so passionately about how we can meet their needs socially, professionally and emotionally, while highlighting that social supports and accommodations for neurodivergent people can, in many cases, also benefit neurotypical people, and that is something we actually spoke about on the podcast before, about how having a society that is more open and accommodating to people with disabilities and different brains can actually benefit us all.
Speaker 1:But on another note, dr Matt speaks about the anxiety often experienced by neurodivergent people, especially when they feel like they don't quite fit in, like experiencing imposter syndrome, questioning their own capabilities and, in many cases, maybe expecting and accepting less than they deserve due to feelings of not being enough. So something like I guess I better take whatever I can get type of mindset. But, as Dr Matt points out, two opposing things can be true at once. So while you may question your competence at something, it doesn't mean that you are factually incompetent, and recognizing that can help with the stories we create and tell ourselves about ourselves, so we can embrace and hold space for the anxiety we experience and still move forward, knowing that we are enough, knowing that you are competent.
Speaker 1:All right, let's so good to have you here.
Speaker 2:It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Okay, so as a clinical psychologist who you serve the neurodivergent population, right? Yeah, how does you know? I guess the question that I want to ask is are there any specific fears that you find dealing with people who are gifted or who have different brains? Do you observe any specific fears that comes up, especially as it relates to the parents of children who are neurodivergent?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I mean fear, I think is one of the fear is almost like my colleague right, like it shows up to work with me every day, because fear comes from a sense of unknown. And the world is built for neurotypical people like the way schools and dating and jobs and college are built. They're built for the big middle of people whose brains are well within normal limits. When you have a kid who is not like that, there is an obvious fear because, well, what does the world look like for a kid with this brain? If you are someone who's wildly brilliant but has trouble being around other people, well, goodness me. I mean we've built sort of a social world. How does one interact with that?
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of fear I hear from parents. You know my kid's autistic. Are they ever going to be able to live alone? My kid's gifted you know what happens if they can't find a job? That sets their world on fire. My daughter's ADHD why can't she ever find her shoes? Will she ever find her shoes, you know. So there is this fear because it's we get so caught up in what is happening to us right now we lose the ability to see the horizon and the potential growth or change that comes, that will be on that end of the journey.
Speaker 1:Wow, I can only imagine what that's like because you know, for example, my daughter. She's left handed right. We don't find a lot of left handed things for people for people that use their left hands, that are left-handed.
Speaker 1:So I get it. I totally get it, because you know you often don't find left-handed scissors. I mean they exist, but it's easier to find scissors for people who are right-handed, are right-hand, dominant, right. So I totally get that. And for me, just you know, having a child who is left handed and just working around, that you know getting her to use little tools and little things when she wants to do crafts, and you know what I mean I can only imagine how huge it is on the other side when you have someone who is neurodivergent.
Speaker 1:They have a completely different brain, they see the world differently, they perceive things differently and maybe they're even more sensitive to a lot of things. And the world really hasn't caught up to really being able to facilitate a culture that is dynamic enough to accommodate, have proper accommodation to people with different brains, whether it be in our schools, in institutions, in the workplace. I mean, you see, like certain things, certain workplaces, they might have certain accommodations, but it's not enough, it's never enough enough and it doesn't cover the vast differences and, um, the variations among people who are in your neurodivergent. So I totally get the fear there's, just like you think about everything that possibly could go wrong when you have a child that doesn't function the way that everyone else's kids do.
Speaker 2:And it's a point of immense privilege, you know. I mean you mentioned the left-handed thing. I mean, one of my favorite examples of privilege is if you're left-handed and you walk into a classroom, the first thing you have to find are where are the left-handed desks? And it's not a thing that right-hand dominant people like me ever need to think about. I can say whatever the heck I want, right, yeah, do, do, do, do here, I go right, but your kiddo has to think about that and that's a thing that they have to think about a million little moments a day, and it wears you down. You know what I mean. If she ever drives a manual car, right, I mean here in the the you know North America our stick shifters are on the right side, yeah, right, so, which means she's going to be shifting the car with her non-dominant hand.
Speaker 2:Not a thing that, as a right-handed person, I have to need to think about, I ever need to think about, and you know I actually often like left-handedness, colorblindness, neurodivergence are are sort of under this umbrella of invisible differences. Yeah, you can't look at someone until they're left-handed. You can't look at someone until they're colorblind. Well, it depends on what they're wearing, I guess. Uh, but, but it's those things that.
Speaker 2:So when people who, who don't look any different, ask for accommodations, there's the system tends to respond to that in a what why would you need something different? You look able bodied, you look normal, you look neuro, neurotypical, and then it's all. It's analogous to almost like a coming out process and you have to decide what parts of yourself you need to reveal. You feel comfortable to reveal, you feel safe to reveal, and when I talk about stuff like this, I usually anchor this it's like I'm the most privileged human in the world.
Speaker 2:I am a straight, cisgender, heterosexual, white male with a doctorate. I mean, come on right, it's just ain't nobody more privileged than me, right? But it's the sort of thing. I still have areas where I struggle with, areas where I don't have privilege, but I talk to you and I think about how much privilege I have vis-a-vis the person I'm talking to. It's a great lens to look at all this stuff through, because we have to meet people where they are and we have to believe them when they tell us about stuff that comes from a place that we don't see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that you mentioned that. It's that unseen element that makes it so challenging and in a lot of cases can be so dangerous. For me it can be dangerous, or for a Black man it can be dangerous. You know what I mean. A neurodivergent Black man that doesn't respond the way that you might expect any other man to respond could get shot because maybe it's not understood that his brain works a little bit different, so his cues are different, he responds to cues differently. There's that element, right.
Speaker 1:But then, even taking race out of that, when you look at just anyone else, right, there are just so many accommodations that are lacking when you go into the office, when you go into work, and maybe your boss can't understand why you function a certain way or why you respond a certain way, and things can lead to conflict when the communication breaks down because you don't communicate in the same way that everyone else does.
Speaker 1:So I kind of get it, because I know from speaking to people who has some level of neurodivergence, there's some people. They might not have the same focus as someone else, right, not have the same focus as someone else, right? Maybe they need certain accommodations that allows them to be able to focus and you know, their brains are going a million miles a second and they need some accommodation to help them to focus on something. It's not as if they're not capable of doing it, but they need an extra accommodation in order to get that done. So I know, when it comes to universities, they have certain accommodations, but I'm not even sure if that's enough, because, having gone to university myself, it's there, but I don't know. I don't know. So I want to ask you how can we better support and advocate for the neurodivergent people in our lives?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you mentioned university, and that's a. It's an interesting place to start, because for a long time we've thought about neurodivergence in terms of education, right, I mean because that's at least in the United States, right, that's where we get most of where the mental health and societal structures intermix. So your kid has ADHD, well, okay, well, we have to put some accommodations in school so this kid can learn, because it's our job to teach this kid, right, but it's the same, your ADHD doesn't magically go away when you turn 18, you graduate high school, right, I mean, now you have to enter into work, work or higher education that have less obligation to meet you where you are and serve you. I've had clients ask for accommodations for adhd or dyslexia at work and have them told, like, those things don't file under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is not true. I mean, they're actually in the letter of the law, but people say they're not because there's still this perception that's like, well, if you just worked harder, if you just focused, then you wouldn't have these problems.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's why I ground so much of what I do in neuroscience, because it's like, hey, I can point to you on brain scans how these people's brains are literally different, and I'm not saying that's going to change every heart and mind, but when you look at an ADHD brain on an fMRI and you look at a neurotypical brain, you can see the difference. I mean it's remarkable. And you know, I mean a Great Dane and Chihuahua are still dogs. They're both dogs. Yeah, nobody would look at them and think that they're the same thing and need the same stuff, right? Yeah, so you know, the ADHD brain is a different kind of dog and it may need special food, it may need to go on walks more often, and why would we give that grace and understanding to our pets and not give it to our children? I mean, my good, I'm a dog guy, so this is not an anti-dog rant. That's a great way to turn off the podcast listeners. Be like, I'm not pro-dog, I am very pro-dog and cat. But yeah, it's, you know.
Speaker 2:So we need to think about accommodations, because the brains we have impact our entire lives. They impact the friends we make, the games we play, the jobs we get or the jobs we avoid. They impact the kinds of dates we go on. They impact the substances we consume and the vacations we go on. I mean, you know, that's why it brings me such great joy to see so many more sensory-friendly places in airports, at stadiums. You know, the Toronto Raptors just debuted their big sensory-friendly space at the Scotiabank Center, I think in downtown Toronto. Right, I mean those are the things we need because, if you want, if the goal of any treatment plan is inclusion, then the spaces those people are entering must be inclusive.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're so right on that. I'm really glad that you mentioned that sensory aspect, because I know that we have children, that their sensory system are just built differently. Yeah, their sensory system are just built differently, yeah, right. And so they don't communicate or show affection, for example, or maybe things might kind of trigger them in ways that it doesn't trigger the rest of us, and I think that is so challenging.
Speaker 1:I can only imagine because, as a parent myself, my little one she's six years old this year and she has a lot of big feelings, a lot of big emotions. So, on a regular day, I think a lot of us struggle so much to deal with our own crap, our own feelings. There's so much things that we kind of push down. There's so much of our own emotional baggage that we have that we still struggle to deal with. A lot of us lack emotional intelligence, a lot of us are not great communicators, a lot of us has trauma that has yet to be acknowledged, much less to be processed, and when you have a child or a loved one that has yet to be acknowledged, much less to be processed, and when you have a child or a loved one that has a different brain and who needs different accommodations, the entire experience can become so triggering when you have people who have not dealt with your own personal issues, so I can see it being such a huge challenge.
Speaker 1:What would be your advice in this case?
Speaker 2:The advice is twofold. So just because you are where you are doesn't mean you can't get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, have you ever gone back and listened to your first podcast you ever recorded?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Pour yourself a glass of wine and do it because it's rough. It's rough. I recently listened to the very first webinar I ever gave and I was like oh, oh God, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, oh God, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. And it's amazing because our growth is constant, but it's subtle. Yeah, and you wake up one day and you go, whoa, I'm so much better at this than I was. But in order to get there, you have to start.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that's the other side of this. Is that imagine how much better you could do if you gave yourself permission to be a beginner. You can only start where you are. You're like okay, well, listen, once I lose 50 pounds, then I'm going to go date. No, I get where that fear comes from, but you can start that right now. You know, I mean it's. You know, I tell my clients all the time it's like don't wait to be happy. Right, if there are things you can do right now to put you on that journey towards happiness, take that step right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the best time to start trying something was 10 years ago. The second best time to start is right now. You know, and I said we also like, ah, if only I had started this. And yeah, but you can start it right now. I mean, I travel all the time for work.
Speaker 2:I'm often going places to give talks and speaking conferences and for a long time I just never signed up for one of those hotel points systems, right, and now I am, and now I have a million points in a hotel chain, but it's like I would. I just never signed up for one of those hotel points systems, right, and now I am, and now I have a million points at a hotel chain, but it's like I would have so many more points. Oh, my God, I left so many points on the table just because I was bored or stubborn or lazy or whatever word we want to use. And and every time I look at my point total, there's that little voice in the back of my head. That's like you could have more. Yes, but I also have a lot.
Speaker 2:Right, I started when I started and I can't change when I started, but I can move forward, trying to maximize that growth, and I think there's. I think that's a a lesson that all of us can benefit from, because it's we're so hard on ourselves when it comes to growth and change. Well it's, I'm not good at talking to other people and I'll never be good at talking to other people, so I'll just choose to be miserable. You're, you are as good at it as you are right now. If you engage with systems and services and helpers to get better at it, I'll, I'll bet you, I'll bet you any amount of money that you'll be better at it in a year. But you've got to be willing to start and willing to keep going, and that's where it gets hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It takes a level of self-awareness just that level of self-awareness Because I know there are a lot of parents that they tried their best.
Speaker 1:Having kids that are neurodivergent, gifted, having different brains process is so scary and, um, you're not all fixed and healed and you know when these things fall on your lap, you know you're just trying your best, you're really just trying your best, you're really just trying your best and you're trying to show up as best as you can. So I can only imagine the challenge, coupled with all the fears that you touched on earlier, about how your kids can function as they grow up. You know, in school and in all these different spaces, that they will have to kind of adjust to spaces that most of them really have not given any real thought to, how they can really serve the rest of the community that are not like them. So, yeah, it's a really tough cookie but, as you said, it's never too late to start. It's. You know it is the best chance that you can get to start to even work on your stuff and work on yourself. I say all the time. You know, being a mom of girls, I have become a much better person.
Speaker 1:You know, being a mom has made me so much better. It has. My kids have kind of mirrored so many things that I did not see in myself, kind of pulled out a lot of things that I didn't know were there, and from that I used that to build on that and just becoming aware of all those different qualities about myself that I can improve on and you know and also notice the things that are really beautiful about me, right. So it's such a huge learning curve for parents, for families and for the people who are also experiencing it themselves. So definitely love that you said that it's never too late. Just start right now. What advice would you give? We're talking about the workspace and talking about bosses not wanting to accommodate. You know saying like, yeah, it doesn't cover this, it doesn't cover that, that refusal of accommodation or maybe dismissal, as in like they really don't care. And then there's that personal thing whereby you experience imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Do I really belong?
Speaker 1:here, Is this my space. Like, can I come into this space and get along with these people and how am I going to commute to these people effectively when my brain right? This is a thing I talk about a lot.
Speaker 2:So imposter syndrome stems from a place where you have been made, either implicitly or explicitly, to feel different than your surroundings, right? So if you have ADHD and you notice everybody else knows where their jacket is and you have no idea where your jacket is, then that's a thing that makes you feel a little bit different. And that difference can sort of grow and metastasize into something like imposter syndrome. Because if I'm so different then perhaps I don't belong here, perhaps I'm just fooling everybody. I had a travel sales job right after college and, like everybody else there had gotten a business degree or like majored in marketing or sales, and I'm like I was a psychology major, I worked at a lab and I got burned out from working in a lab. So I just took the first job and it's like oh, it's got a bar in the office and I get to travel internationally. That sounds pretty great. Shout out to EF Tours First real job I ever had.
Speaker 2:And in that case my awareness of my difference made me work harder because I was like I don't have the skills these other people have. I got to work my butt off and it was a lot of work and it was a lot of struggle, but that could have just as easily drowned me. It could have been an anchor around my neck. I had a great manager who saw me and helped me develop as a person, right. And so when I came into work wearing, you know, very wrinkled shirts or like pants that were like technically work pants but really shouldn't have been work pants, she pulled me aside. She's like what are you doing? You're like you don't look like a professional. Look at everybody else in this office. I'm like, right. And then there was an old Navy in the mall right down the road and I went to old Navy and I was like I need to buy pants. And I bought pants and you know, and it's the sort of thing, like it's those little things you need. Awareness only takes you so far.
Speaker 2:Support gets you the rest of the way yeah right and, and you know, support can be a double-edged sword, because you have to ask for it and you have to ask for it for people who are willing to give it, and that can be very tricky, you know, and the imposter syndrome will tell you. Well, you know, like if you were really good at this, you wouldn't need help, you know, I mean, if you were truly a good parent, you wouldn't need time off from your kids, right? And it's like you know and I've, like all the parents were listening to this are going uh-huh. So I will say this as a as a child psychologist and as a parent of two, I need breaks from my kids. There are times my kids drive me up a wall.
Speaker 2:That doesn't make me a bad parent. It doesn't make me a fraud as a parent or a partner. It means that I'm human as a parent or a partner. It means that I'm human and there is no greater gift to ourselves that we can give than to allow ourselves to be human. Because the goal of all this work we're trying to do right, all of this work, it isn't to be perfect, it's to be resilient, it's to be adaptable, it's to, it's to survive and thrive. I mean, if you try to be the perfect parent, I guarantee you you'll fail, because the perfect parent doesn't exist and whatever you're doing that's working right now will probably not work in six months or six years. Right? People change, so you've got to have a skill set that changes and grows along with the needs of your environment, that changes and grows right. And this is actually a way in which neurodivergent people can be great employees, because we're already outside the box thinkers. We're already used to figuring out how to survive on the margins.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Right. So we're actually wired to be more nimble, right, and I think that's a cool thing. I mean, if companies can tap into that, I mean that's a potential goal of mine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is so true. I spoke to someone I have an episode coming out soon and it was around the same kind of thing. This gentleman, he has a disability, he's blind, and we spoke about the same thing. Society views accommodation as an extra thing, like we have to do so much, we have to spend so much in order to do this accommodation. It's as if it's like, um, like they're being pressured to do a lot of people or companies Um, not everyone, of course, but the energy that has been given, it's like it's too much, it's going to cost us too much to do this. Um, it's going to take too much effort and too much, it's going to cost us too much to do this. It's going to take too much effort and too much time to do that. You know how many people even require that kind of accommodation. Most of us are normal, right, that's the kind of thinking that is out there.
Speaker 1:But he said this similar to what you just said, that people need to realize companies especially that having these accommodations would actually help the lives of everyone else Everyone, because you know he spoke about, for instance, having sidewalks that are shaped differently, having the curve right, so that you're not people who are blind, are not kind of tripping over themselves when they're crossing the street and trying to get on the curve. He said think about moms who have strollers, who are pushing their babies. How much easier that would be for them if the sidewalk was shaped differently. So he said society needs to view creating and facilitating these accommodations. They need to view it as a positive thing because ultimately, not only does it help people who are disabled or people with different brains, but it ultimately helps everyone else. Everybody benefits from this, because it also makes the lives of people who are considered normal easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 2:There's a meme that floats around the various disability boards online where it's a bunch of kids trying to get into school and the stairs and the ramp are covered in snow and the janitor's shoveling the stairs and he's like I'll get to you in a you second kid in a wheelchair. The kid who else says but if you cover, if you uncover the ramp, we can all go up exactly right.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a. There's a client I work with who is you know. He's very neurodivergent and I was able to help get him an accommodation where he can work from home as a default, and if they need him to come into the office, we set it up that he has to come into the office. And if that's not, if, if that is a possibility for your job, then I truly believe that should be the default. Everything we know, all the data we have from the last four years of people working remotely, is people are happier, they get just as much work done, they spend less time in the car, it's better for the environment. I mean, it really is just sort of a win-win and it's the sort of thing I understand.
Speaker 2:There are financial reasons, like those giant buildings downtown are not going to pay for themselves yeah and if you have a company meeting or an all call or a, you know you need to be there to push that product out. I guess, sure, I get it. There are times you gotta got to come into the office. I don't, I don't need, you know, I don't need them to like, push that so hard. I think that the other side of it is let's have, let's have a conversation about what the employee needs to be successful and where that can take place. That's an outside the box thinking. You think about it. Basically, for all of human history up into the last five, 10 years, you had a job. You went to the office.
Speaker 2:I used to have a really cool office to see therapy clients and all this exposed brick it was a very beautiful place and during COVID I broke my lease because I was like I'm going to be paying thousands of dollars for a space I can't use. And then I realized working remotely, seeing clients virtually, is easier for me, it's easier for my clients, it's financially better. I mean if my kids have a snow day they can be home. I mean it's a win-win right. You know so, you know, I think those right, you know so, you know I think those, those ideas, the changing dynamics of a world, are hard for people to adapt to.
Speaker 1:But when we adapt to them, there's a, there are scenarios where everybody benefits yeah, a lot of them actually, so many of them the simplest one I can think of is you know that little when you go to the mall and you push a little thing on the door to let the door open, it might come simple, but during COVID it became a huge thing. Yeah Right, because, like, they even install the ones where you kind of wave and the door open. Because we were kind of afraid of getting the disease, transmitting the disease. We weren't yet sure of how the disease was even transmitted, and so now we're getting afraid to touch things that other people had touched.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so all of those little things came into play when COVID happened, right, and we found a way to make it even better by creating the sensory ones, where you kind of just waste the door opens for you, no need to touch that surface. So that is the simplest one I can think of, but it was so huge during a time when we were in crisis, and it goes to show how much society can truly benefit from creating equitable accommodations for everyone. Think about your neighbor, think about the children, think about people who really have to go through their entire lives struggling or second guessing themselves because society makes them feel different. And society reiterates to them all the time like, hey, why do you do something like that? Like, why do you, why do you walk like that?
Speaker 1:Why do you talk like that? Why do you think like that? Why can't you do this right? Instead, it should be oh, you can do that, that's cool. You can think like that. Tell me more yep, right, but we don't get that a lot of the time. So everything you said, so true? Um, I'm really enjoying this conversation. I want to get into, you know, you mentioned something earlier that caught my interest, and what is it like when you kind of get on the dating scene, that's like a whole different can of worms, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I mean, are you kidding me? Like it's? Dating as a neurodivergent person is a whole thing, and I'm one of the few people in the spaces I travel in who talks about dating and sex and sex education for neurodivergent people through that lens, because it's so important. I mean, remember we said before our brains come with us wherever we are. Right, you know, I mean for whatever, for the challenges that exist in socializing anyway. They're so much more complex when you're talking about dating, romance, sex, because then there's even more nuance. You know, one of my clients was saying to me the other day he's like so, dr Matt, in movies all the time the female character will say I don't like you, I don't want to kiss you, and then 10 seconds later she's kissing him.
Speaker 2:Why, like, didn't she just say no? And I'm like how do I even begin to unpack that? Because it's very complicated. And that's why I actually think that sex education and dating 101 are parts of good social emotional learning for kids. Because how do you declare your needs? How do you say to somebody I like this, I don't like this, I'm willing to try this? How do you say I don't want you to touch me? How do you say I really, really want you to touch me Right, like how do you have those conversations? And I think it's great that we're moving towards a world of more open and honest conversations about boundaries, about physical safety, about consent, because consent is a term that can be analogous to soccer dating, family get togethers, sex, being at the grocery store, right Anytime you can use language of consent. It gives us a framework to say what we need and what we don't need.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know so, and I've had kids say like, oh, I can never establish those boundaries because if someone, if I'm lucky enough that somebody, wants to have sex with me, I'm going to let them do whatever they want. And I was, was like that's like not only a very sad way to say well, it's potentially dangerous. You can get into a very bad relationship with that kind of thought. But if it comes from a place of I am, I'm an imposter, I'm fundamentally unworthy, I'm, I am too different, then that's very fertile ground for those kind of thoughts to grow from. And we know thoughts lead to feelings, lead to behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So you know, I mean, it really starts with a self-study. It starts with what do I like, what don't I like? You know, are you somebody who couldn't go on a date to a fancy restaurant because you'd be too anxious? Being in a fancy restaurant, like how do I use the several forks? Right, like you know, okay. So then what does a good date look like for you? Is it a cup of coffee? Is it ice cream? Is it walking around a park? You know, those are all fine dates and you can communicate that to the person you want to date. And here's what I tell my clients, and I genuinely believe this If they say absolutely not, then they're not the sort of person you wanted to date in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. If you think a beer at the corner pub is a good date and they want to go to the opera and you don't like operas, then they're probably, no matter how pretty they are. No-transcript. Those sort of moments remind us that we're allowed to have our own deal breakers. We're allowed to have our own values and enact them in systems, even if we feel like we might not be worthy of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true, and I love that you mentioned consent. That is a language that we all need to include in our parenting moving forward. Whether your kids are considered neurodivergent or not, that is something that we all need to really be attentive with. From everything you've just said, I can only imagine the amount of anxiety that comes with dating, and you previously mentioned a creative framework that you use not just with dating but pretty much everything else that we've been speaking about, because the anxiety and fears are always there. So how do you use this creative framework to create those alternative narratives that could help to counteract the effects of that?
Speaker 2:alternative narratives that could help to counteract the effects of that. That's, I think, fundamentally what therapy is all about is creating alternate narratives. If your brain only tells you one story, right. For instance, for a long time, my brain told me the story of if your kids aren't happy, you're not a good parent. Not a good story. It's not true, it's not accurate, it's not possible, because the things that make my kids happy are often the things that I cannot give them, or can give them only in certain amounts. My son would be happy to lay on the couch and watch Blaze and the Monster machines all day. I mean, you, you, you wouldn't move. He'd be a very happy camper, right. But it's important as a parent for me to make sure he goes to school and runs around outside and and has a healthy lunch and all those other things. So you know. So now I have a narrative in my head that says sometimes we do know better and sometimes I have to like the things I'm going to say are helpful but might make him unhappy in the short term. And that's an okay counter narrative, right?
Speaker 2:If there's one thing that's true about our brains is that, in the absence of other information, our brains only tend to tell us one story, right, and that story tends to be catastrophic, right? You know, my best friend hasn't texted me today. Oh my God, they hate me. Oh my God, they're mad at me. What did I do? And then you ramp yourself up because, remember, thoughts lead to feelings, lead to behaviors, and by the time your friend actually texts you, you're like oh great, yeah, it's like I'm going to respond to that text message, because you twist yourself up into knots over a thing that may have not actually happened.
Speaker 1:That is so true.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're all human. I do it too, right. So it's this sort of thing. It's like I always tell people try not to focus on what if. Try to focus on what if. Try to focus on what is right. What if this thing happens? Well, it might, but what is happening to you right now is more important. Whatever control we have over the universe exists a lot more in the what is than the what if yeah and and that's the sort of thing.
Speaker 2:like you know, I'm sure that I've gotten a gazillion you know a gazillion emails since I've been talking to you while we were doing this podcast and like, well, what if one of them was important? What if one of them was totally time sensitive? What? What is happening right now is I'm on this podcast and that that's okay, right, the the reality is is the vast majority of messages we get can wait.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know I tell people all the time. You could distill therapy down to the idea that it's about holding two different thoughts in your head at the same time. I am anxious about being a parent, and I am still a good parent. I don't know where the hell I'm going to find somebody to date me, but I am worthy of love, right, you know I don't know if the kind of job I need exists, but there are resources I can ask to help me find that job, because if we only tell one story, then there's no nuance, there's no reflection point, it's all just gunk, and I don't like gunk. I want there to be more goodness in the world and I think that's a pretty powerful thing. But that goodness can start with the stories we tell ourselves and the gifts we give ourselves of being more flexible and open to other possible explanations.
Speaker 1:I definitely agree with you on that. Just before we wrap up, I know that you use the eclectic approach to therapy. I'd like you to talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, my eclectic approach is basically comes from years of working with kids in different spaces, and a lot of people describe me as aggressively pragmatic, like if it works, I'm going to do it, if it doesn't work, I'm not going to do it, you know, because fundamentally, best practices are only helpful in as much as they help our kids, right? So if the you know, if Russell Barkley says this is what works with kids for ADHD, but it doesn't work for your kid with ADHD, well then then we're probably not going to do that Right, or we're going to tweak it in some way to make it work for your kid. So my eclectic approach is like pull from cognitive therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy and attachment theory and processing and gamification. And I have a lot of tools in my toolbox, right, and increasingly I'm bringing those tools to organizations. Increasingly I'm bringing those tools to organizations, companies, schools that are trying to get that kind of impact at a much broader level, right? So next week I'm going to talk to a big law firm here in the US, because a lot of their parents, who are very bright and capable people are. Also, I'm sorry, a lot of their lawyers, who are very bright and capable people are also struggling with parenting and navigating all those pieces of it. So we're going to talk about how do you hold space for both of those things and how to give yourself permission to be less than perfect at something.
Speaker 2:So, if that stuff sounds interesting to you you know I'm very Google-able, you know I'm the only Dr Matt Zuckreski out there, so that's easy. Um, the name of our practice is the neurodiversitycollectivecom. Um, it's a mouthful, but once again, it's very Googleable. Um, and a lot of people uh, engage with me on Facebook. Um, facebookcom slash. Dr Matt Zuckreski. Um, you know, it's nerdy humor, some mental health stuff, some positive affirmations. I just try to put out a lot of good in the world and I find that 99% of the time it gets reflected back to me. So I guess I'm on a mission to help as many people as I can understand their brains, understand how to make life a little easier, and if we do that, then I can sleep well when my head hits the pillow at night.
Speaker 1:As someone who studies psychology myself, I you know that that is something that really stood out to me. I think this is something that we all know by now that one shoe doesn't fit all right. It's. We can't do a cookie cutter kind of thing for everyone and you know, five people with ADHD the same therapy won't work for them. Five people with Asperger's the same therapy won't work for them, for each individual. So definitely love that, I love what you're doing and thank you so much for sitting with me today.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh it was. It was a great pleasure from my side, you know, and you create just such a wonderful, warm podcast space, so that's really awesome. And you know, if I can ever come back, I would certainly love to talk to you some more.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I would love that actually Definitely. Thank you so much, Dr Matt.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening. You can support our work by sharing this podcast with your friends and family, or you can also make a one-time donation. If you'd like to know more about Dr Matt and his work, I've included all his links below in the show notes. Until next time.
