The Other Side of Fear
The most important life hack you'll need: A Holistic Guide to Get You Unstuck.
Self improvement topics covering mental health, trauma, limiting beliefs, mindset, spirituality, energy healing, mindfulness, and purpose.
The Other Side of Fear explores thought provoking stories about the types of fears that are triggered by our individual insecurities, conditioning and past traumas. We examine the role of societal conventions and how they function as a strong determinant, in how we often choose to address our most personal struggles.
Our guests discuss how they navigate through various challenges, while taking ownership of their true desires. Giving you a gentle push, to live in a way that honors your authenticity. What does it mean to lean into fear? How can we recreate our stories and embrace the unknown? What does the other side of fear look like for you?
This is a reminder that, your fears are as big and as scary as you allow them to be. Your purpose is greater than the fear that hinders you.
The Other Side of Fear
Solving The Issue of Accessibility for ALL of Us | with Maxwell Ivey
Key Takeaways:
- It is never too late to start over. Begin with what you have right now, this moment. If you feel overwhelmed or scared, you can first start small and do something that is only a little bit scary; and even take strength from the challenging things you've already done or overcome.
- Accessibility benefits everyone.
- Be open to asking for help and be willing to receive it. “ When you refuse to ask for help, you rob the other person of the joy they would have received from helping you” - Maxwell Ivey
They say life is a carnival, full of unexpected twists and turns. No one knows this better than Maxwell Ivey, a former carnival owner turned accessibility advisor whose life story exemplifies resilience and adaptability. On our latest podcast episode, Maxwell opens up about his journey, from the grief of losing his father and their family business to surmounting his own physical and mental health challenges. He doesn't just share his story though; he provides a roadmap for anyone facing their own adversities, emphasizing the strength in asking for help and the power of inclusivity.
As we wade through the waters of business and accessibility, Maxwell casts a beacon of light on the importance of embracing disability in all aspects of life. He shares invaluable insights on how businesses can create inclusive environments—not merely as an obligation but as a strategic advantage that enhances everyone's experience. This episode is particularly eye-opening for podcasters, as Maxwell offers practical guidance on how to make their content more accessible, ensuring that their message resonates with a broader, more diverse audience.
Ending on a note as vibrant as a freshly dyed head of hair, we share a lighthearted moment that reminds us of the joy found in self-expression. Maxwell's wit and wisdom invites us to reflect on our own journeys and consider how we can all contribute to a more accessible world. Tune in to experience a conversation that is as enlightening as it is engaging, with stories and tips that will leave you inspired to make a difference—in your life and the lives of others.
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Sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for all the things we've done and all the things we've been through and survived. We tend to primarily celebrate what we perceive as our wins and we fail to recognize the gains in our losses. But the truth is that we gain so much knowledge from the things that don't work out for us, the things we perceive as failures, and oftentimes it is from those difficult experiences that we gain the most clarity. This conversation with Maxwell Ivey reminded me that our most challenging moments are the best opportunities to learn something new about ourselves and about the journey we're on, and it is often what equips us with the tools and resources to keep pushing forward.
Kertia:But I more so love this conversation because Maxwell speaks about some best practices that we need to consider when we encounter and work with disabled people, which lends to the question are we truly inclusive in our businesses, organizations, institutions and so forth? Because, as we know, not all disabilities are visible. What are we doing to make sure that our disabled neighbors, family, friends, employees aren't left under fringes of society? After all, true inclusivity benefits all of us. How do you go from being a carnival owner to an accessibility advisor? What has that journey been like for you?
Maxwell:Right. Well, being a carnival owner was something I did, because everyone in my family did it.
Maxwell:At one time there were four carnivals in the state of Texas operated by people from the Wagner family, and my cousin still has a very large carnival. He operates out of Aransas Pass, texas, near Corpus Christi, and travels all the way up to Minnesota and back every year, so he's the one who has stayed in the business and made it a living. And as far as how I got from there to here, basically I was forced out of the business by circumstances. First, we were never a large carnival. We had eight or nine rides at our best, and we were constantly competing with larger carnivals who had more throwing rides, newer, flashier equipment, and so we were always on the edge of failure or bankruptcy, however you want to refer to it.
Maxwell:And when my dad passed away in 2003, we just weren't ready to keep the show going. We were able to manage it for about three years until our insurance premiums caught up with us, and at that point we closed our carnival and combined our rides and games with my Uncle Albert's show. And that was a very difficult time because I had lost my father, who was my business partner, my best friend, my mentor and the guy I went up and down the roads with for 15 years before then, but also having to accept that our business was no longer a carnival owner or a carny.
Kertia:So a lot of changes.
Maxwell:I went through a period of depression. I had a time where I put on a lot of weight. I was never healthy to begin with, but when I started addressing my health a few years later, I weighed in at one point at 512 pounds and we have photos that show me at over 600. So I was not a healthy person and I finally figured out that there was no place for me on my uncle or my cousin's midway. My mom and brother could continue to make money selling food, but none of my games were capable of competing with the games on a bigger midway. So when I finally accepted that, I started a website called the Midway Marketplace, because I couldn't just do nothing. I had to have something to do and I felt like the only thing I knew how to do was to help other people sell their rides, because I had to do it for my old family. So I started the Midway Marketplace in 2007.
Maxwell:This was back before WordPress, facebook or Wi-Fi. I actually had a MySpace account. If anybody remembers that, that was my primary web content for a while. I actually had to teach myself how to code HTML to start my website, because at that time there was no options like WordPress, where you didn't have to be able to see and then arrange things visually on the screen. And after that I also had to figure out, you know, I had to figure out how to recruit clients and set fees and write copy and so many more things that go along with being an online entrepreneur.
Maxwell:And people came along and said Max, you know, we're really impressed with how you take on these difficult challenges and we'd like to hear more about what it's like to be a blind entrepreneur. So at that point I started the second website as the blind blogger, which is a name people had been using for me. People had even been using it for a couple of years, because at that time most people didn't realize there were other guys out here, other girls too, that were blind and blogging. So I was the only one in their eyes and it became a shorthand. So that's what I called myself and what I still call myself, because it kind of stuck. And since then you know, if somebody gives you a great name, don't try to run from it, just say thank you and embrace it, which is what I was smart enough to do, even though I really wasn't sure.
Maxwell:So since then I've written four books, two of them award winners. I've traveled the country so low, usually on limited funds. I have been on hundreds of podcasts, taught people to be guests, booked people on shows and eventually started my own podcast called what's your Excuse. And I've also done some public speaking. I've faced my fear of singing in public and written some songs and sung along with my speaking and my podcast. And so I've done a lot of things, and most of it was really just one thing after another.
Maxwell:It was either I had to do something in order to accomplish an immediate goal, like when I started the first website, or it was somebody suggesting or challenging me to try something I hadn't done before. And you know, I like to tell people who asked me Max, how do you do all this crazy stuff? The you know, how do you find the courage? And I tell them it's easy. It comes from one or two places. You either start small and do something that's only a little bit scary, or you look back in your rear view mirror and you think about all this, all the complicated, challenging things you've already done, and take strength from them to know that you'll be able to accomplish the next thing. Those are some of the things I've done and some of the ways I've gotten from there to here.
Kertia:That is amazing. You have done so much, maxwell, and being blind a lot of us who do not have that disability. It's hard to imagine how to approach doing what you do with the disability that you have. So that is amazing. I want to know was this disability something that you were born with or was it acquired?
Maxwell:Right, well, it was a little bit of both. I was born with retinitis pigmentosa, which is a degenerative disease that attacks the retina, but I was born with perfect vision. I only started losing my vision at four or five and it was gradual at first, but when I entered junior high school or about that time, at a big drop off and vision they say that's pretty common for men with RP that go when they go through puberty, they tend to have a big drop off in their site, and that was the point where I had to start using a light cane, learning to rebrail, learning to navigate cross streets and those sorts of things and, of course, finding new ways to study and complete my classwork. I personally think the fact that my vision loss was gradual is one of the things that's been very helpful to me ever since then, because when you don't really know what your vision is going to be when you get up the next day, you really don't know what your tools, what tools you're going to have available to yourself until you get up the next day.
Maxwell:So when you're constantly changing, going from, say, reading a regular print book in a dark room to having to have a lot of light, to having to have a large print book to having to use a closed circuit monitor and then eventually having to go to audio and braille. That happened over a period of years and I think the constant adjustment is one of the things that has made me so resilient. As a older person working online, and I feel like most people have probably gone through things like I have. They may not put as much weight on them because they think a disability is a bigger challenge than whatever they've been through, but I assure you, if you have done something that when you were through you felt like you had birthed a child or you felt like you had run a marathon. The odds are you've done some things, whether you see them as successful or not. You've done some things that you can draw on to help you do bigger, more challenging things now.
Kertia:That is so true and that's a great way to actually look at it. A lot of the times when we do things, we underestimate the value, kind of underestimate the weight of what we've accomplished. So that is really a really good way to look at it.
Maxwell:And you know I want to admit that I'm also guilty of that, because there are times when I gloss over the fact that I taught myself to COVID-19, html until I'm on a podcast with a host who knows exactly how hard that is the other thing I don't often talk about. The other thing I don't often talk about as much as the fact that I'm one of the few blind Eagle Scouts and that I accomplished all the requirements for that rank after losing most of my vision and was the first blind person in the eastern half of the state of Texas to achieve the rank of Eagle.
Kertia:Wow, that is amazing. Can you explain what that entails for people who do not know what that is?
Maxwell:Right. Well, it involves learning a combined number of skills that start out kind of easy, and what they call skill awards, that get gradually harder and what they call merit badges. You know you are things like outdoor skills, home economic skills, civics lessons, life saving, swimming, outdoor activities, and you also have a series of three pretty difficult projects that you have to complete in order to finally achieve the rank of Eagle. And then you have to put it all down in a report and get it approved. And then you have to wait and hope that they say yes, because sometimes they say no. And I was very blessed that on August 22nd of 1984, they had my Court of Honor. And the other thing that was really cool about that is I live in Houston, texas, and as such a large city, they had a policy of not covering Eagle Scout awards or other scouting awards, say like for the Girl Scouts. But both papers and both papers and two of the TV people were at my court of honor.
Kertia:I love that, having done so much, you know, looking back on your experience, what are some of those fears that you experienced when you had to conceptualize now your new reality. And it's kind of hard because you know we have so many accessibility issues. How do you move through that anxiety and those fears when you have to kind of deal with how the rest of the world responds to you?
Maxwell:Right? Well, part of it has to do with how you approach the world. One of the problems with people with disabilities and I think I can speak to this as a blind person is there are still way too many of us that are just too easily offended, are too easily ruffled. I like to talk about a topic called interdependence, which to me is the willingness to ask for help or opportunities and accept them when offered. And one of the best examples I can give you is there are probably millions of people in the country who, when they see a blind person, they would like to go say hello, they would like to go offer to help them, but they are scared to death that they're going to make that person mad by just offering a simple kindness. And sadly, there are still probably quite a few blind people or people with other disabilities who would take offense of being offered help and it all goes to the ego. I mean, it's hard enough in our culture for people to ask for help, because at least then you know, you can admit to yourself that you need help. You can reach out to one specific person or a few specific people and you can let them know what you're dealing with and ask them for their help. But when somebody comes along and offers to help you, it goes straight to the ego because it's like you know I don't really need your help. I'd like to know who the heck you think you are that you think I need your help. Would you please go help somebody else?
Maxwell:So I think part of what has helped me a lot is my attitude, and I have to thank my dad for my attitude, because one of the things he's drummed into my head will actually two things over the years. After he realized that I was going to lose my vision and have to make my way in the world in a different way, he said Maxie, you always called me Maxie. I never liked it, but he always did it. And he said he said one thing always look in the direction of the person you're talking to, even if you can't see, focus in on their voice, because they will at least think you care enough to pay attention. He said the other thing is never be afraid to ask for help, because you're going to need people's help. People are going to want to help you and if you don't ask for their help, you're going to make your life just so much harder than it has to be.
Maxwell:So I grew up with a different attitude in my household than most people are exposed to, and I do my best to try to help people overcome that, and I've come up with a saying that I think really gets to the heart of this, and I hope people will listen to this and, if it's OK with you, I'm going to say it twice because it's really important to me. Ok, yes, when you refuse to ask, you rob the other person of the joy they would have received from helping you. When you refuse to ask for help, you are robbing the other person of the joy they would have received from helping you. In effect, you're making somebody else's day worse by not asking for or letting them help you.
Kertia:Yes, yes, maxwell, that is so true. I love that because I know for myself. There are sometimes when I see someone with a disability, and sometimes I want to offer help, but I'm hesitant because I am, I become concerned that I might offend them. Right, and I've seen it before whereby people with disabilities have been offended by people offering help. And so I'm stuck in this in between, where it's why I want to be a good human being and assist this person, but are they willing to allow me to assist them? So what you said is so important, because attitude on both sides it matters, it goes a long way.
Maxwell:And in your case and you know, just to try to help other people with what little insight I have here I would say introduce yourself and do it from a distance so that so assuming it's a blind person they don't feel like you've snuck up on them. So say hello, have a friendly greeting and just say you know, I I have a few minutes. Is there's something I could do to help you? Or would you mind if I accompanied you where you're going? Or possibly maybe you notice something about them that you would have a question about that has nothing to do with their vision, such as, maybe they're wearing a really pretty sweater, or maybe you like the pattern of their, of their tie, and after you say hello, you realize that they have a really voice that's really easy to listen to.
Maxwell:The other thing you could do is ask a question, you know. Ask, I mean because sometimes there are things that you just want or need to know and you know, sometimes maybe you invent a question. You know, how good do you think it would make the blind person or the person in the wheelchair be if they've never met you before and your first response is hey, do you know where the best coffee or bagels are around here, or can you tell me how to get to whatever bus you know? If you can ask a question that makes them appear knowledge more confident, that's also a great place to start.
Kertia:That's really good advice being aware of the way that you approach someone who has a disability and, even when trying to help, not focusing on the disability itself in your approach to offering assistance. So that's that's actually really good advice.
Maxwell:Well. Thank you, I'm glad that I could help out a little. It's a difficult subject because some people there aren't many of them, but some people are just going to read you the wrong way, no matter what you do, you just have to remember that. And one other thing I like to tell people if you're struggling, you know, maybe you don't have a disability, but maybe you have difficult life circumstances. If somebody does offer to help you and you don't legitimately feel like you need to help, respond to them with grace. Be kind and polite when you tell them you don't need to help, because the way you respond to that offer will determine how willing that person will be to offer help to the next person.
Kertia:Mm, hmm, from someone who is, you know, not experiencing any disability. From my perspective as well, when I do see someone who has a disability, I do not see them as helpless. I never think of them as a helpless person. I know that they are very well capable, but I am coming from a stance whereby I would like to make this thing that you're trying to do a little bit easier for you.
Maxwell:I personally appreciate that and I'm hopeful that your listeners will also appreciate it and embrace it, and maybe today we will together help avoid a few more awkward first meetings and conversations.
Kertia:I really hope so. It's so important. Maxwell, can you tell me how can businesses make their products, services and content more accessible to people with disabilities?
Maxwell:Right. Well, I think the more important than the how is the why. As a disabled person, I don't think that we spend enough time talking about the why, so let me address that a little bit first. Yeah, as a business owner, you want your products and services to be as beloved as possible by your consumers. You want them to just have to buy your product and not even look at anybody else's, and you want them to be regular repeat buyers. So one of the ways you can create better products and services is to include people with disabilities in the design process, because the research shows that when you design to include disabled people, you make the product, the end product or service so much better for everybody else that uses it. A perfect example I love a product call from a company called less annoying CRM for my content manager my contacts, managing who I send emails to and who I talk to. When they decided they wanted to become more accessible, the first thing they did was we want to make everything on our website accessible with keyboard functions, which was a great first step. By doing that, though, how many people with perfect site do you think there are who can now use their product better or service better than they could before, because it's no longer based on mouse clicks or swipes. It's based on keyboard commands. So that's one thing. The other thing is that, as a group, for the most part, people with disabilities are very loyal consumers. We will support businesses and brands that make a sincere effort to make us feel welcome, and right now, there's over 1.3 billion people who acknowledge themselves as having some sort of a disability in the world. The numbers are growing all the time, and we generally will advocate for brands and businesses that make the effort.
Maxwell:I like to say that including disabled people in your products, services and marketing is like hiring influencers. You don't have to pay. That sounds good to business owners. Yes, yeah, advertising that doesn't cost you any cash out front. So those are a couple of reasons for it. Those are a couple of things for the wise. As for the hows, it really starts with trying to understand what the needs are of people with disabilities.
Maxwell:And when it comes to online access, which is where most large part of our business starts nowadays, there are some very basic things that all websites should have. In my opinion, all websites should have a minimum as few items as possible on each page, because when you use a screen reader, a screen magnification option, or when you're a paraplegic or quadriplegic, trying to navigate websites with a motor control device or with speech. The more items there are on the page, the longer it takes you to get to the one item that you want. So I recommend fewer items on the page. Then, when I navigate to that page, then only the necessary items on that page that apply to that topic. That's a very good start. Being able to change the color, contrast, color palette, size of text all great options. Having alternative text for your images, especially if those images are linked to a link or a button, is very important.
Maxwell:Realizing that most adaptive technology computer users don't have access to a mouse, so either building with a keyboard based approach or having keyboard commands for all your mouse based commands is a very good thing. Making sure that your forms are accessible, including the form they use to pay you, make sure that your PayPal, stripe or whatever form is set up to be accessible. Those are some of the basic things, and most business owners will think about those once they decide that accessibility is important to them, and this is a really important thing that I've learned as I've leaned into all the knowledge I've gained about accessibility over the last 15 years is that the real challenge to accessibility and inclusion for employers and for business owners is they think about it differently. What they need to do is they need to say that accessibility is no different than any other problem in my business and then ask themselves how am I solving other problems in my business? How am I addressing sales, cash flow, credit terms, collections, how am I addressing all these other issues? And then apply that same strategy or approach to how you deal with accessibility.
Maxwell:And this has actually been an aha moment I've come to like in the last few weeks. I'm really lucky that you came along at just this time, because if I'd talked to you a few weeks ago, I wouldn't have had this so clear in my mind. And it's something I really plan to talk about a lot in the future, because the real fear and overwhelm regarding accessibility is the whole idea that it's foreign, it's alien, that I have to find somebody who knows what to do, because there's no way I can solve this on my own. And, of course, as an accessibility advisor, as a consultant, it may be a little short-sighted to let people know that they can solve this problem on their own. But hey, I can't be everywhere and I have an abundance mindset, which means that sharing this information is only gonna make it better for every other person with a disability, that's out there navigating the world and the online world.
Maxwell:So just think about it that way how do we get more people in the door? How do we make our website accessible? There's different questions, but they solve the same way.
Kertia:Yeah, when you said that the fear of this being alien, it's too different. It's unknown territory, almost, because for people who do not experience a disability or maybe do not have family members who are disabled in some way, I'm not sure what the issue is. Is it because they can't relate? It's hard for them to imagine how they can help you know, how they can make things easier and more accessible and more inclusive for people who are disabled. I'm not sure exactly where that disconnect resides, but, as you said, this is so important Accessibility, inclusivity. It is extremely important because, as you said, businesses should take this seriously, because having a business, a product, a service being accessible, you are gaining a loyal customer base because they will always return.
Maxwell:Yes, I think and I think part of the problem that you were asking about is at least a little bit of it for people who don't have a disability and don't have anyone in their circle that has a disability part of it is just the fear, the belief that if this happened to me, I would not be able to go on. I don't know how I would cope, and that's especially true. That's especially true of vision loss. There was a study of years ago that said that people feared vision loss more than they feared public speaking or death.
Kertia:Hmm, wow.
Maxwell:They just don't feel like they'd be able to cope. So I think that's part of the disconnect. Part of it is they just don't realize how valuable it is to them, and I really think one of the things I can do to help people is just let them know. Hey, it's okay to be selfish. Be selfish, protect your business, protect your brand, grow your bottom line, make stuff accessible. There's another report I just read this week and I'm sorry I don't have the link to it, but it said that employee retention goes up by 12% in companies that embrace diversity, equity and equity and inclusion, including people with disabilities. And yes, and as you know, one of the most expensive costs, one of the largest costs for any business, is hiring and training and retaining good people, and so every time you can keep good people and not have to replace them, that's actually a financial benefit to your company's bottom line.
Maxwell:So another area where you know, and something else I'm just starting to understand is that, especially for younger workers, for people who have grown up with this idea that they should be happy and satisfied with their work, a lot of that group of workers feels better about their employer if the employer embraces accessibility and inclusion. So it's another way, it's an unpaid benefit that you can offer it. As accessibility becomes a more mainstream thing, where more and more companies are doing it, accessibility is even starting to be seen as a career skill that people can put on their resume if they have knowledge or training in WCAG or the ADA or the 508, you know. So it's even becoming a valued asset among employers, because the smart employers realize that it's only going to become a more necessary thing in the future. So why not have your current employees learn it? Why not hire people who already have the skills or are working on gaining those skills inside your company for when you do need them?
Kertia:Yes, absolutely. That is so true. How can, for example, someone like me as a podcaster, a content creator, how can I be more accessible? How can I structure my work and what I do to be more accessible and inclusive?
Maxwell:You know I have to really thank you for this question, kershia, and I'm not doing that for form. I sincerely mean it because one of the areas that I am working to become part of my niche as a speaker and as an expert is for podcasters, and I feel like there's a lot podcasters could do in this area that would help them build a stronger connection with their audience and, as you know, when we connect with our listeners, it makes it more likely they're going to listen every week, subscribe, download, tell their friends, et cetera. So I'm very happy you asked and I'm going to give you just a few things to think about and what I really should have mentioned before we started recording and I'm going to start putting it in my emails to hosts in the future is an audio description. So say for you now, as the host you're, I'm guessing your background is not going to change much and I'm guessing your physical description is not going to change much. So maybe once you do it, once you would only have only want to say let people know what you happen to be wearing today, or if you feel like it matters what you happen to be drinking today, or if you have a pet that comes on screen sometimes, but not all times.
Maxwell:An audio description is basically where we tell the listener what they would see if they could see us and, of course, the majority of podcasters listeners are listening to our voices rather than seeing our videos, even though many of us recorded video and post the video. So audio description if there's a point in the conversation where a facial expression really would make a point more strongly like I was interviewing a guest for my future show and he took a moment to describe my facial response to something he had said, because it just brought the point home further my reaction to his comment. So anytime you can describe what's going on, of course it has to be something that's pertinent to the listener, otherwise it just becomes fluff or background noise. But like, for example, for your guests, it would be great if you would encourage them to tell people their skin color, eye and hair color, nationality, what they happen to be wearing or recording from today. Like I said, if they have a pet that's going to make an appearance, if there's something unique or especially impressive or curiosity generating from their background that they could mention that. So, basically, just let the audience, whether they're sighted or blind, that are hearing you, let them become more aware of what they would see if they were actually joining you in your studio or your basement or your garage or, in my case, my bedroom, and we're actually able to be part of the recording. So that's one thing.
Maxwell:Another thing is have somebody check your podcast player if you're not using one of the major players and make sure that the buttons are accessible that it's easy to fast forward, rewind, download, pause, share your content, et cetera. Make sure that your player is accessible. If you do offer video, whether it's recorded or live stream, offer closed captioning with your audio, offer a transcript so that if people that may not be deaf but have hearing loss, having the words in front of them while they're listening to you can really make it a lot easier for them to understand you. I have a good friend in Pennsylvania named Amy, who's an author and she is visually impaired, but she's also losing her hearing. So whenever I share one of my songs with her, she asks me to send her the lyrics so that she can have the lyrics while she's listening to me sing. So that's something you can do for your hearing impaired. Make sure that the website where your content can be found. The social media posts you make and your email newsletter are all accessible to somebody using a screen reader or screen magnification.
Maxwell:If you have a sign up form, have somebody test the form to make sure there aren't any roadblocks such as an unsolvable CAPTCHA or a checkbox or a select box or one of the many things people put in forms. And one really important thing when you're designing a form is, if possible, have an alert that pops up and says the information you just entered in that field is wrong. Do it again. And this is what it should say, having something like that, every time you enter text into a field on a form whether it's a sign up form or a contact form or a form to purchase your next book or product make sure that there aren't anything's in there that would cause a problem for somebody using adaptive technology, because, while we are very loyal, once we become a fan we don't have any longer attention span or frustration span than anybody else does. So if we have enough trouble, we'll just quit and go somewhere else.
Kertia:Yeah, I totally get that. I totally get that because, as you said, it's progress over perfect and sincere efforts over arbitrary rules, right? When users are integrating this into their systems.
Maxwell:Yeah, and I love that you used my language too. I really appreciate that, because I'm never really sure, when I write stuff down, how well it sounds or will sound to the other person. So when you know, kershaw, when you actually use my words, it makes me feel better about them. And they are true. Accessibility is one of those things. It's one of those things you're never going to get 100% right and you're only going to drive yourself crazy if you try to get it 100% right.
Maxwell:But if you have a regular, sincere effort, if you communicate with your consumers, you have a disability to address short-term and long-term issues. One of the things I find all the time is that a problem with accessibility is not really accessibility. It's really more a problem with workflow, because the person who designed the website, the app or the content didn't understand the way in which a adaptive technology user would navigate that particular website or app, so sometimes it takes communication. That's another thing I really believe in that inclusion, especially digital accessibility, will require a partnership and that requires communication and collaboration and instead of compliance and shame, and so I really do hope that we can start conversations to help more people take those first small steps towards making whatever they do more inclusive. And one other thing I would like to mention in this area and I think it's the reason why this is my approach to accessibility, besides my early upbringing is that we've had over 50 years of the National Rehabilitation Act. We've had over 30 years of the Americans with Disabilities Act. We've had countless other regulations and lawsuit victories over that time, but yet, according to statistics from audioicom, which is an online automation platform for accessibility, which I write for, only 3 to 4% of the internet is currently completely accessible.
Maxwell:So think about it. You know that old line about if you do the same things over and over again and expect a different result. That's the definition of insanity. Well, we've been doing the same thing for 50 years and we still only have 4% of the internet's accessible. So to me that means we need to do some different things. And I like to say you know, I don't know how many people are going to get this reference, because it goes back quite a ways but they used to say when you wanted to get a mule to take you where you wanted to go, it took both a carrot and a stick. I feel like we've been using the stick plenty. We ain't used the carrot enough.
Kertia:Yeah, I get that. I think a part of it is when a lot of us think about accessibility and what it would take for us to make our businesses and services more accessible. I think for a lot of people I could be wrong, but maybe it is that the task seems so daunting. It seems like it's so big, and this is why it's so important to partner with people who have experienced disabilities or who work in the field of helping those or caring for those with disabilities, who have family members who have disabilities.
Kertia:Someone like you who can provide advice as a disability advisor right it is so important for businesses to collaborate with people in order people with the experience and the knowledge in order to make changes in their business, in the way that they structure their businesses and services. Because it is true what you said earlier, that when we make our products and services and businesses more inclusive and more accessible, it also benefits everyone else. Because I can tell you you say that you use the iPhone and I can tell you that a lot of people who have zero disabilities use those accessibility tools in the iPhone.
Maxwell:Well, it's funny.
Kertia:All the time.
Maxwell:No, that's not a surprise, because nowadays it's been so long ago that that happened. The first accessibility with Apple was actually with the iPod 4, and it was the first device there to have accessibility features. But you had to connect it to a laptop or desktop and you had to install the accessibility. It didn't have accessibility right out of the box. But it's been so long ago that people think that Steve Jobs was this great, altruistic person who wanted to help everybody. No, he was a guy who saw our aging population and said you know, if I get in front of everybody else by making my product accessible to people with either disabilities or with infirmities that come from age, then I'll give myself a competitive advantage. And so he built in the screen reader the screen magnification, the ability to speak to it, the ability to use like hand gestures or even, you know, these new things where people that have motor control issues can you know, can like click or grip a button and have it switch back and forth between options.
Maxwell:So he started building all that in I think like 15 years ago, but he didn't do it out of vouchers. If he did it because he was going to get rich. You know, and hey, I told you before I'm all for people being selfish and accessibility is good for your bottom line, so go for it. But yeah, that was, that was his motivation and, as you say, a lot of people nowadays use many of those accessibility functions because they just work to just make our lives easier. And that's another thing is a lot of things that were originally designed for inclusion turned out to help everybody.
Maxwell:I didn't even think about this, but somebody was telling me those days like you know, max, I'm not disabled. I don't need those curve cutouts in the sidewalks that make it easier for wheelchairs to get down and back up. Again, he said but you know, when my wife had her first child and I realized she was going to be pushing a baby carriage, he's like, yeah, buddy, those cutouts made it, made his wife's life easier because she didn't have to wrestle that carriage up and down off the sidewalk curves, you know so those are, yes, so great examples of how accessibility devices make lives easier, about how, by making your stuff accessible, you open yourself up to a lot larger market and a lot more loyal consumers.
Maxwell:And I'm going to do something today. I don't know if I'll do this on every interview, now that I am an accessibility advisor working for a living in this field, but for people who listen to your podcast, if they will send me an email it's Maxwell at theaccessibilityadvantagecom. If they send me an email, I will at least check out their homepage and let them know how how good or bad they're doing, at least from that point. And you know, if I feel like their homepage is got is pretty well together, I may check some of the other pages, because we generally put our best effort into our homepage because, after all, that's where people are going to come first.
Maxwell:If they're disappointed there, they're going to leave and go somewhere else before they look at anything else, and I feel like I can reasonably do that for your listeners without it becoming, you know, too much of an investment of my time, as, as you know, when you trade time for money, you have to be careful about things like that. So I may never make this offer again y'all, so y'all might want to get in. So if y'all will email me or send a message through to Kershia and let her know that you want me to check out the homepage of your website, I'll be more than happy to do that. There will be no obligations, no pressure, no hinting. I will just go yay or nay and maybe offer a couple of easy suggestions to get you started.
Kertia:Amazing. Thank you so much for that, Maxwell. I love that. And thank you so much for your advice about being a more accessible and inclusive podcaster. So many great insights there. I love it.
Maxwell:Thank you so much. Just one last thing, just one last thing, that yeah. You told me you wanted me to mention the new podcast, so yes, I want you to mention the new podcast.
Kertia:Let's talk a bit about that.
Maxwell:Okay, so it is called the accessibility advantage, which I believe is pretty much who I have been for years, even before I embraced my role as an accessibility expert, and I plan to have three types of content. There will be short accessibility 101 tutorials of basic things everyone should know. There will be interviews with people who are business leaders or thought leaders whose companies have embraced accessibility and inclusion, who will talk about their journey and the things they had to overcome the resistance from within, without, but then also the benefits to their company, both as a in the business sense, but also in the sense of their employees and their team and their place in their marketplace. So we'll talk a lot of positive results of them embracing accessibility. And then, finally, for my clients that hire me, I will be doing reviews of their websites, where I share what they're doing right and what they need to work on and tell people how they navigate those sites in the meantime, and then give a timeline, or at least an approximate timeline, for when they will address the accessibility issues they have remaining, and even offer myself to people who listen to those episodes to even teach users of a particular product or service how they can navigate it until the accessibility updates are completed, because, as you know, people get frustrated. We don't like to wait, but it helps us wait if we know what's going on, if we know somebody's making the effort or if we can see some of their progress.
Maxwell:And I did this for a friend of mine a couple years back who eventually hired me for an additional website that he's built. His name is Alex Sanfilippo. He runs Podmatch, which is the website where we connected. It's a website to connect podcast hosts and people who want to be guests, and it uses artificial intelligence to match us up. So hopefully you don't have any guests that you know, just not quite what you wanted for your show. So when I was doing his second website or his, when I was giving him advice before he hired me, one of the problems there were a couple of things that were issues, but they couldn't deal with them right that minute, and so I explained to him what my workaround was for those issues in his scheduling system and he asked me, said, max, is it okay if I share these with people who signed up and indicated that they have a disability or that they're having trouble with accessibility? I'm like, sure, go ahead and do it. And because I, you know, was friends with him.
Maxwell:Going back to podcast, and because we had just, you know, just decided to do things rather than worry about, you know, the whole am I going to get paid for this or whatever Just decided to do them. We realized that offering a workaround when there are accessibility issues is a great way to avoid compliance issues and also just to avoid people getting upset with your business and going to a competitor. So that's, those are some of the things I'm going to do on the podcast. I really think that we're going to help a lot of people because, as you mentioned, the biggest problem is the fear and the overwhelm and the belief that accessibility is totally alien. So, the more business owners and business leaders that we can get in front of people who can help them see through their process and their journey, that it really isn't as bad as you think it's going to be, you know, if we can eliminate that overwhelm, there's so many more people will do this and their businesses will benefit from their investment in accessibility.
Kertia:Amazing. I love that. I love that concept and that is something that will be so helpful to a lot of businesses and a lot of people who are content creators as well. And I love that you're putting all of that into a podcast, because it makes the information even more so accessible. So that is an amazing thing that you're doing.
Maxwell:Right and accessibility on my own podcast is something I'm working on. For example, when I recorded my first interview because I'm not used to interviewing business leaders. I'm used to doing an inspirational podcast under my what's your Excuse show, that I'm currently have pause while I start this new one. I'm used to interviewing people with inspirational stories, not business leaders, so the first time I was so nervous I forgot to do my audio description.
Kertia:Yeah, I get that, so that is definitely something that I need to work on my audio description.
Maxwell:Well, it's going to make you feel weird the first couple of times you do it. You may want to rehearse before you do it on tape Because, trust me, it just doesn't feel natural so like, but you can have a little fun with it. I feel like I find it's important to have fun Like for me, one of the things I like to mention when I do my introduction is I'll say something like my hair is a short. Today it's short, sometimes it's medium, but I'll whichever is. That's what I'll say is it's my hair is a short, really curly, medium brown color. I would like to tell you what color it is, but it really did. I would like to tell you what color. Let me do my joke. Okay, give me a second here. I would like to tell you what color it is, but it really all comes down to what shade of hair dies on sale at Walmart when it's time to retouch the gray.
Kertia:I love that.
Maxwell:So I get, I get a joke and I'll make myself feel comfortable.
Kertia:Yeah, I love it because when you you know joke about it, not take the whole process too seriously, then it takes the edge off. So I love that.
Maxwell:Yeah yeah. I try to bring humor into pretty much everything I do whenever possible, and the funny thing is, most of the things I say that are really funny are not things that I plan to say.
Kertia:That's good, it's in the moment, it's real, it's authentic. Just throw it out.
Maxwell:Yeah, it's observational, you know. Yeah, I may not be able to see y'all, but I'm paying attention to y'all, you know.
Kertia:Should I describe what I'm wearing right now?
Maxwell:Yeah, you can give it if you want to, if you want to, but don't say it in such a creepy way that makes me sound like one of the people that's dialed one of the numbers. I mean, come on, I'm going to get in trouble for that question. Okay, okay. But if you want to, if you want to take a shot at an audio description. You know, start with your hair, girl. Start with start with your national, start with something that ain't going to get me in trouble.
Kertia:My hair. Today I'm wearing a hat, I'm wearing a toke and I have my headphones on over that and yeah, that's it. That's very low key, low maintenance today, and I'm just wearing a white blouse with little pearls on it. That's my first try at audio describing myself.
Maxwell:I think you did pretty good and I think you, I think you at least laughed at yourself a little, which is really important. But yeah, your background, your background and yourself, make sure you get, make sure you get them both, unless the background is just not it just, you know, it's like a blank wall or something. You know, like mine. I will sometimes describe my background because because it kind of makes a point that you don't have to have a fancy recording space to be a thought, to be a thought leader and somebody who impacts other people, so somebody sometimes I will tell people, you know, I'm recording this from from my bedroom and I'm sitting in front of a plane I think it's wider brown door. I mean there's nothing behind me of any interest. It's a good thing that I'm kind of a tall, kind of a. You know, I kind of sit high in the chair so people don't see a lot of this stuff behind me.
Maxwell:My nephew keeps saying you know, max, we need to put some stuff behind you, and I tried to explain to them. As a blind person, I need my recording space to stay the same. I need to be able to depend that I can sit down and say about 95% sure that I'm in focus, that things are where I left them. So we have a wall that's like four feet over to my left that we could put stuff on. But in order for me to sit in front of that wall I would have to move stuff to sit there and I'd have to move stuff when I'm through sitting there and that just doesn't work. You know, just like my camera angle, my lighting, pretty much everything has to be in such a way that it's not going to. It's not likely that it will get moved on me between the time I record today and the time I record next. So that's.
Maxwell:But like I say, I I sometimes will describe my room and let them know I'm recording from a bedroom, because there's still a lot of people who have yet to put their podcast out into the world, because they're concerned about what their recording space is or what it looks like or what people would think about it if they do about it. And I find that perfectionism in all things is something I'm trying to help people with. You know, there are a lot of people who have, who could share great content with the world, but they can never get past the fact that in their mind. Their website is horrible. You know they can. They can never get past the fact that they, that everybody else and their brother edits their podcast, which is a total fabrication.
Maxwell:In fact, I have never edited my podcast and I've managed to build a brand and a following off of it because I embraced the the recorded as it is, as part of my brand and I basically said you know if, if I waited until I could edit my podcast, then I probably would never have released a podcast. So if it ever comes, so if it comes down to you know, your, your website or not releasing your podcast or a book or your art page, whatever it is, don't worry about it. If it comes down to how you look on camera or the fact that you're, you know, basically recording your stuff with a $40 pair of headphones you got at Walmart, none of that stuff matters. As long as you're creating good content, as long as nothing you do is distracting from your content, the rest of this stuff is all stuff.
Kertia:Yeah, I love that Cause. Perfectionism can be such a hindrance. I struggled with that too before the start of my podcast, wanting to get everything right, and at some point I just threw my hands up and decided to just throw myself into it, whatever it looks like, whatever it comes out, as it is what it is. So I totally get that, totally identify with that.
Maxwell:You know what's really screwed up about people wanting to get their podcast perfect is. The best way that I know of to attract a following is to let them see you struggle, to let them see you grow and get better at it as you go along, to let them see you change your podcast, even if it turns out to that your original idea was not exactly the right idea, and you know people love to be part of the story. They love to support and help somebody. It's trying to do something that they personally would never do, and so is. I just find it totally backwards that People are worried about perfection when it's the imperfection that helps you build the connection.
Kertia:Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right on that. That is so true, but it's it's. It's so easy to forget, because we tend to forget that the things that we pay attention to or the things that we don't pay attention to, when it comes to us, when it's our turn to be, you know, in the center of what we're trying to do, the same applies on the other end. People don't really care about all those extra things, you know. They care about the connection, they care about what you have to say, they care about the value that you're, that you're offering. They don't care if, whatever color shirt that you're wearing today, they don't care if you stumble a little bit right. So I Think it's just that thing, with us all just being so hard on ourselves all the time. So, yeah, Right.
Maxwell:I think, personally, my disability has helped me overcome the perfection, because there have been so many times where my decision was not necessarily can I do this, but, given the challenges that I have as a blind person trying to do, it is Is there a way for me to do it that Wouldn't require so much time and effort that I couldn't achieve my end goal? And that's the way I approached editing. I say I did another thing that I did with my podcast for a short while, about Four years ago. I was having so much trouble with the hosting company that I was using for my audio that I was thinking about quitting podcasting all together. And then I thought to myself there's a great quote from Louise Hay, who's a famous inspirational guru. She used to say that To the two worst phrases in the English language, or should and should not. And so I'm thinking you know I'm thinking about quitting podcasting because navigating my free Podcast player is so aggravating I thought, well, why not, at least for now, just post the video? So that's what I did.
Maxwell:I posted the video for about a year or so and then I met the guys from blueberry at a podcasting conference and got to know them and Decided that, with their help, I was going to try to posting the audio again, and it turned out. Not only was their player very accessible, but the process of uploading the audio and Creating the show online was very accessible. So I I got to the point where I could release my podcast episodes on both platforms again, but there was a while where I said, okay, max, what matters? You know, because it really doesn't matter. You know, if, if Posting both video and audio means I'm not going to post at all, then you know what. What do you do? So I figured out people were better off to get to experience my guests and their inspiring stories in video alone, until I could never get the audio.
Maxwell:So If there are things that are challenging whether you're wanting to write a book, become a speaker, start a podcast, start a blog, share your art or sculpture or painting with the world, whatever it is Decide for yourself two things. One, is this something I have to do or is this something I'm doing because everybody else in my arena does it? And To decide for yourself what success looks like. We get to decide whether we want to just say we publish the book or whether we want to make the top of the New York Times best seller list. We get to decide if we want to post our podcast, whether nobody listens or not, or if we want to be in the top 1% according to listen notes. We get to decide that, and so that's another very important thing when you're involved in a creative process Decide what is important to you, what you have to do and don't have to do, and decide what success looks like.
Kertia:Those are very key. Thank you so much, maxwell.
Maxwell:Well. Thank you, kershah. I appreciate all your time and effort you put into your show and, before we finish, I want to make sure to let you know, before I started doing podcast interviews, I didn't have a way to get out to meet people face-to-face. I Was frustrated and felt there had to be a way for me to communicate my experiences with other people, and so I discovered online radio and podcasting, and Without that opportunity, I wouldn't have been able to do a lot of the things I've done, because I wouldn't have been able to attract supporters and helpers along the way. I wouldn't have come across people who have been able to encourage me and lift me up when I needed it. So I just want to let you know that without podcasting, without people like you, there really wouldn't be the Blind blogger or what's your excuse, or the, the new accessibility advantage, and I want to thank you for being part of my continuing journey and part of my continuing story.
Kertia:Thank you so much, max, and thank you so much for providing so much value, for providing so much Insight into what we can do to help to make things more accessible and more inclusive, because that is so important, so so important.
Maxwell:Well, thank you, I appreciate your, your sentiment, you know your sincere understanding and I appreciate your and I appreciate your time and hopefully we have changed the minds or at least created some curiosity about just what accessibility requires and what what it will do for your listeners.
Kertia:All right. If you want to get past the fair and overwhelm Surrounded making your businesses more inclusive, get in touch with Maxwell. He offers amazing advice about making your products, services and content more accessible to people with disabilities. I've included all his information in the show notes. Don't forget to head over to our fan list to tell us what you think about this episode. We also recently published our patreon, and we would love your support so that we can continue to create more content for you. So join our patreon community to support our work and get access to tools, tips and strategies, plus lots of other perks All right until next time.
